Is Affirmative Action Fair?
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- Опубликовано: 27 ноя 2018
- Affirmative action is back in the news, should it factor in College Admissions?
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What is affirmative action?
When it comes to colleges and universities, “affirmative action” refers to policies where race and sex are considered in the application process. They’re not the only things colleges look at-- they’re still looking at your grades, SAT scores, extracurricular activities, but they also take into account your race and gender in an effort to help ensure women and minorities are getting equal access to higher education.
What are the main arguments for affirmative action?
Many people in favor of affirmative action say that because of historical and institutional sexism and racism, it is necessary to make sure that women and minorities with good academic standing receive equal access to college. Another argument in favor of affirmative action is that racially diverse campuses and universities benefit all students. They are places where you learn to interact with and respect people who are different from you, skills that are essential to living and working in a diverse world.
What are the main arguments against affirmative action?
Many people that oppose affirmative action believe it’s not fair. They argue that these policies hurt whites and Asian-Americans if “less qualified” minority students are admitted over them. Some argue these policies end up hurting race relations if people assume the only reason a student is at a school is because of their race, even if they would have gotten in without affirmative action. Many opponents believe that college admissions should be based on merit alone, and not on things that you can’t change-- like race. Others argue that a more fair way to help those that are at a disadvantage would be to consider parental income or class, instead of race-- that way admissions policies don’t hurt poor whites and Asian-Americans.
SOURCES/ ADDITIONAL READINGS:
National Conference of State Legislature: Affirmative Action Overview
www.ncsl.org/research/educatio...
ProCon.org: Does the US Need Affirmative Action?
aclu.procon.org/view.answers....
ACLU: Who Supports Affirmative Action?
www.aclu.org/files/images/ass...
New York Times: How Minorities Have Faired In States With Affirmative Action Bans
archive.nytimes.com/www.nytim...
National Women’s Law Center: Affirmative Action and What it Means for Women
nwlc.org/resources/affirmativ...
National Bureau of Economic Research
www.nber.org/papers/w20962
Pew Research Group:
www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/...
Gallop Poll:
news.gallup.com/poll/193508/o...
New York Times: Even With Affirmative Action, Blacks and Hispanics are More Underrepresented at Top Colleges Than 35 Years Ago
www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...
Teen Vogue: What you need to know about race and college admissions
www.teenvogue.com/story/what-...
Brookings Institute: Black Students at Top Colleges Exceptions not the Rule
www.brookings.edu/blog/social...
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@@mariusss95 Just curious if you actually watched our video. Because we clearly represent your perspective in the video along with the arguments in favor of AA, and we very intentionally don't "take sides" -- we are journalists here at KQED and work hard to present balanced arguments that are supported by evidence and let viewers decide for themselves which argument makes most sense to them -- or propose their own. Not sure you got that, though, from your comment.
@@AboveTheNoise Watched the entire video and I couldn't ignore the fact that you have a bias against people oposing AA,like...I do not know,your eyes rolling and your tone when people actually claim that merit is the ultimate factor,it's pretty clear,the "facts"that your provided have no real base.In most of the video you presented a pretty dramatic situation and spent the next minutes supporting AA.
You are journalist,yes,of course you are,you know,journalism these days,especially in the US is very biased and left leaning so to trust a journalist is a big mistake if they include A LOT of bias in their videos,CNN is a very good example.
"And work hard to present balanced arguments"
I repeat myself,what you presented was not balanced at all,at least not for me.
Oh,and btw,this comes from someone who is not an US citizen but rather an Eastern European who just got his Bach.degree in engineering,you know how I got admited in my college?I worked my butt off and not used some minority Bs to get special treatment like they do in the US.Went to US a couple times for work with my University and when I meet some leftist protesters who based their arguments on feelings and race I could just corelate your video with them.....
A pity that you do not acknowledge your bias and hypocrisy.But the comment section seems to favor my point of view.Remember,victim/race cards are getting overused that they have now become a joke.
@@AboveTheNoise Also,why did you assumed I didn't,oh oh,I know because if my opinion is negative you assume that I didn't even heard the sides of the story....that's it.
@@mariusss95 In your statement: "Maybe the diversity of knowledge is why teams succed not because some guy in a team is black and somehow his blackness helps the students,do you hear yourself and how stupid you sound?" we assumed you were referring to us and a particular perspective that you thought we were supporting. But if we misunderstood your comment, please let us know. We actually welcome constructive criticism -- it's really important for us to hear respectful feedback from our viewers.
Above The Noise you have incredible patience lol
when you are considering race for an applicant, you are practicing racism .
No ur just white and don’t care about other races getting jn
Absolutely. Treating people differently based on race is racism.
@@masongoodwyn9006 I am Latino but against affirmative action. I don't think people should be treated differently based on race.
@@thetrailer5050
Affirmative action just acknowledges people are treated differently based on race, and trys to help that.
@@masongoodwyn9006 as a hispanic i can confirm affirmative action is racist
Race shouldn't be a factor in anything
Race shouldn't be a thing tbh
Would this apply to cultural appropriation? I know I'm bringing up a totally different topic, but CA is inherently linked with race, and I'd like to get someone's take on that.
Kay 2Kay- In la la land that would be true.
In a perfect world, yes. But race is so pervasive in everyday life and in institutional systems, that people are been limited opportunities and discriminated based on their race, voluntarily and involuntarily.
@@xpxpe5645 You're misunderstanding my statement and taking up an exception to the "rule." How many black students come from rich and wealthy families? Now compare it to the amount of white students that are rich and wealthy. You will see that there is a disproportion. Look at the bigger picture. The vast majority of people of color are not represented proportionately in wealth compared to Caucasians. And then compare the poverty rates. Much higher for POC.
I’m Hispanic, and I’d personally much rather be chosen because of my hard work rather than how I was born.
It doesn’t matter, I’m an A student and I was constantly accused of only getting in because of affirmative action, even my professors were jerks about it
@@Actually_Woke_6277 yeah that’s why we should get rid of it
How you were born? You have been absolutely washed bud
Man I’m Latino. and if a asian or white guy get better grades than me, They should be chosen. Not me, because of some law against racism/... We should choose based on merite!
Thank you Enrique! With your attitude, you will work hard and succeed in anything you do. No one can stop you.
Your crazy. We should have more privileges than them
Real boxing News i think you’re the one that’s crazy ❤️
Ahahaha. God. The ignorant. Look, as an American, I can find ways to get into elite places. Race boxes are just superficial. I private tutor my kids. Do you think your kids will stand a chance? My kids are black and Asian. And they have more access to things than you or your kids. Play chess, you may understand whats at stake....
@@8dholland weird things to flex about
this reminds me of the Indian dude who pretended to be black to get into med school with 3.1 GPA
Yeah I read that this sucks
good for him
How is he wrong? He is dark skinned... What's even the definition of black? If you mean ethnicity, then Obama wasn't ethnically African American either...
@@gamermapperhe was black not african american. not all black people are african american
improving early education seems like a much better idea to me.
Nah, that's too much work. It's like helping someone train for the Marathon. It takes years of hard work. It's better to provide him with a short cut during the race, or drive him to the destination. He might even win the race.
@@handyman8764 What you suggest is the equivalent of your mother doing your homework for you. Once the test comes, you are screwed. Since you used the marathon as your example, do you suggest we should give Asians and whites a ten mile head start in the marathon since blacks over-represent marathon winners.
@@michaelajustin3443 Thank you for your comment on my post, but you still don't get it. There is no such a thing as black over-representation. The more the better. It is the black under-representation that cannot be allowed to happen. That's why I suggested out-of-the-box methods to provide assistance. That is in fact what AA tries to achieve.
@@handyman8764 Asians do better in academics, test scores, extra curricular activities, and awards than other racial groups. I don't see how it's better to have more un-qualified people. When you have people that will be doing future kidney transplants or brain surgeries, I want the more qualified person.
Over-representation is about measuring race in relation to the US population, and this applies to all races.
How is it bad if Asians are over represented but not blacks. What do you against Asians? You just admitted we should have more of group A but less of group B all because of their race. That's racism and exclusion of certain racial groups.
The fact that Asians work hard and succeed is no reason to keep them disadvantaged. Just like we don't cap how much African-Americans we allow on NBA teams (over represented by African Americans). You don't get it.
@@michaelajustin3443 Thank you for your thoughtful reply. In my heart I agree with you. How can we disadvantage anyone on the basis of race? But my concern is, based on the reality in the US, without the help of AA, some people are unable to compete and will be left behind. It is unhealthy for any society to have a permanent under class. And when economic status can largely be categorized by race, it is especially damaging. The real solution is a long-term effort to improve education and a change of culture. It will take a lot of hard work and a long time. For the people who are already applying for college or job, it is too late. That is why AA can help. It is not an ideal tool. It is an unfair tool and should stop at some point.
I’m Asian and, no offense, I hate affirmative action. We need to vote a president who will destroy AA .
Trump is against AA, but unfortunately he can’t rid of it because of states rights. However, he can appoint judges which one day may declare AA unconstitutional.
Asians for Trump 2020!
The funny thing is Asians continue to vote majority left, supporting the politicians that serve to uphold or even strengthen affirmative action. I don’t get it, they’re telling us Asians that we have to get much better grades and test scores than other minorities to get into the same schools, and yet we’re told to accept it
I voted Trump. However you are wrong affirmative action helps poor people it has nothing to do with race. Most asians are privileged and wealthy. Unfortunately many Blacks, Whites and Hispanics aren't, so Affirmative Action will continue to stay and help the poorest people.
@@beefsteaks888 no, it doesn't, money isn't a factor, race is. its horrible for those who get in because of affirmative action, they are actively being mismatched with a school, and getting put into a school that they literally aren't ready for, especially when compared to other students. its like hiring a truck driver that failed their driving test, accidents will happen and there will be consequences, maybe even to the driver themselves, most certainly in real life where you have people being chosen by their race rather then their test results which are low and indicate they they will struggle, which makes them more likely to drop out, most likely from an expensive university because it doesn't take much to get into a community collage or something like that, on top of that it lowers the standard of education as things get bent and simplified in order to accommodate the lowest common denominator, which in this case would be people that got in due to their race. this lowers the level of education for everybody, and we are talking about the best of the best schools like harvard, where they are meant to offer the highest level of education possible rather then the one that accommodates people that did worse on Sat's.
Should race be a factor? Short answer: a giant NO.
You failed to mention that Asians are a minority too. Giving the best students a handicap based on race is not "reverse discrimination", it's flat out racism! You said "diverse teams are better". I find it extremely sad and demening that what you think makes people "different" is skin colour. I'll tell you what's true diversity: diversity of thought! No one cares about your looks as long as you bring interesting ideas to the table. You're risking excluding the best Asian and white minds just to take in people who look different in your pathetic definition of difference. This is unfair to those who get excluded and patronizing for minorities.
If you wish to help poor people give them financial help, just like any other country. If blacks struggle, help them! Give them the chance to compete. Think of a better scholarship system, so you can get brilliant minds to Universities. Don't sacrifice merit on the altar of equality. You can help people in need while being fair to everyone else.
Could not have said it better. I totally agree with you. Thank you!
Andrea Santoro - Or stop rich white people or white celebrities from bribing their children into elite colleges. Apply your same energy against that injustice.
@@self-righteousjudgementalw8545 Off topic. Of course I don't like rich people cheating to get college degrees. But that's a whole different topic AND it's not protected by law AND it applies to all rich people regardless of race. ALL rich people get unfair privileges - be it white celebrities in colleges or black gay actors who fake hate crimes. This goes against the law and they're going to face the consequences.
Affirmative action is different, it's legalized discrimination. Plain and simple.
You're comparing apples to oranges.
@@andreasantoro7220 amen my guy
"You're risking excluding the best Asian and white minds just to take in people who look different" now that's racist. As far as being fair to everyone, that's something the US isn't very good at, unfortunately. If you don't believe me look around ghetto neighborhoods, where children get shitty education, shitty food, shitty everything from the get go.
MLK said we should not judge people by their color of their skin but by the content of their character
Race in college admissions is against what the Civil Rights Movement stood for.
Michaela Justin are I saying colleges discriminate againts blacks that’s why they can’t get in? Why don’t ya just sue
@@Madeviets They discriminate against Asians, not blacks, so they limit how much Asians can get in regardless of their performance.
Michaela Justin well Asians got money so they should wait
@@Madeviets They got money because they earned it through hard work and valuing education. You are in no position to tell them to wait. You want money? Work hard and go to school and take your education seriously and get a good job like everyone else. Simple as that. Else shut your mouth and don't complain .
Money is not the problem. Working class immigrant Asians with little resources and money know to put extra emphasis on education so their family can climb out of poverty. This puts a end to the pathetic whiner's excuse.
They should do away with affirmative action and instead throw more money towards lower-income education and neighborhoods. This will pretty much fix all those problems because if everyone is learning nearly the same curriculum without any extra “noise” from their surroundings then everyone will have a MORE equal chance than now.
Mr. White what I said totally went over your head. You know how the suburban white neighborhoods and cities MORE OFTEN have adequate funding? So their cities look nice, schools are nice, and generally the population is more unbothered by bullshit like drug abuse (this is actually common in suburbs and urban areas tho) and gang violence and such. Yeah, I’m not proposing an overnight change, but more of a change that blacks will have to undergo over a period of time. But this all starts with more funding to their neighborhoods and cities so that they won’t feel like they HAVE to sell drugs or HAVE to defend themselves at every second of the day. Because THAT is a truth for many black americans, which is why you see them turning to crime: no oppurtunities, no motivation in the ghetto.
YES THANK YOU
I totally agree! There may be some very bright people from low income neighborhoods who just don’t have the opportunity to act on their potential
Couldn't have said it better.
No conservatives will ever support that because they see giving less fortunate people money as throwing a bone to black people
Gotta love fighting racism with racism
But they are not. In reality they are fighting meritocracy with racism.
Meritocracy in this country isn't a thing
@Mame G what happens when our institutions stop caring about race? What happens whem people stop caring about race? You no longer have racism. On the opposite side, what happens when you try and fight racism by training people to be contiously aware of race in every facet of existence? You perpetuate racism.
You cant possibly hope to end racial biases by drilling them into people and institutions.
@Mira M Meritocracy in academia and the free market; not politics.
@@ofimportance5458 You just called yourself unqualified for your own job and didn't even realize it. Or did you get to your current position in life because of nepotism?
Make admissions anonymous.
Blinded Bliss - Diana lmao
I think that is what France does.
Exactly
Granted names often give it away. If you are looking at an application for a "donald mcdougal", you can probably figure out thats a white guy.
But then we'll get predominantly White and Asian campuses. And the left doesn't want to accept that those are the most deserving demographics.
how is this even a question..
The... progressives.
LMAO ONLY IN AMERICA LOL
Which way do you mean
Do you think it's obvious that race should, or shouldn't be a factor?
@@ommy7672 it's obvious that it shouldn't be
Nope. It should always be the most qualified applicants, regardless of race.
What counts as more qualified, couldn't the argument be made growing up black is more difficult than growing up white in america, thus all else equal there is more "merit" towards the black person?
@@austinenos4641 no, a black usually has more merit bec they tend to be poorer, help low income families instead of taking race into account, it's basically the same thing but it makes so much more sense
I'm not American, I am from the EU, but I would be offended if I were privileged for my race in any sense, it'd mean that I'm inferior and I have to be helped whereas if it was an income thing (as it is here in the EU) I'm reassured that I'm not worse but I had a harsher upbringing.
We're all the same race, there's no such thing as race in humans since our genetic differences are so small, that's why race politics are stupid, in every way and direction
@@Azknowledgethirsty Thank you for the response. I feel confident in saying that given even identical levels of income that throughout their life in America an African american student will face many more obstacles than a Caucasian student. There have been a few studies along these lines showing rates of punishments in schools for African Americans no matter the level of income area that school was in. Unless you want to make an argument that somehow African American students are vastly more disobedient even from a young age, then you must accept there is at least some level of discrimination happening. Another study showed that when using identical resumes sent out to employers resumes with stereotypical African American sounding names took 50% more being sent out in order to get calls back. These to me point to some of the few obstacles that seems to sadly still exist in the country. What do you think about these things? I am sure there are studies showing some things that Caucasians are disproportionately affected by, but I don't think it measures up to the same level. I've included links to the things I am referencing also.
www.vox.com/identities/2018/4/5/17199810/school-discipline-race-racism-gao
www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html
@@austinenos4641 I know that unfortunately, biases within the same income group happen but just look at us the EU, specially if you may, France the one and only country where there's a 15% of minorities (other Europeans don't count) there you have a lot of aid directly to the poorest kids, by not making race an issue, people don't care nearly as much, then they accept everyone in university wich is pretty cheap (600$ a year), and by the end of first year only 25% of the students remain in university.
This system removes biases the most effective way, by not confronting them, it creates an area of meritocracy in where your value depends on you and nothing else as every school has similar material
There are still biases and racism in France but black people and Arabs (who are white and hard to distinguish from Mediterranean French) do significantly better than American ones despite having no history within the country unlike American blacks and latinos
There's the solution, remove race as much as possible, make education mandatory the same, university almost free and care for poor students seems to be best solution for eliminating racism in the academic world
Alejandro Zarzuelo the solution is not to remove race as much as possible. It would just erase the incredibly important history of the centuries of oppression people of color have faced in America. You cannot just wipe away the identities of hundreds of millions of Americans and think the issue has been solved. Denying the problem is just as bad if not worse than doing nothing about it.
We tried this in India with caste and trust me don't try this at home.
Too late, it's already here. In college admissions, some races are favored over others. Every Asian American kid in this country knows, in order to be admitted into the same college, he or she has to have higher test scores than anyone else in order to overcome the "personality" penalty. We already have a racial caste system.
@@handyman8764 if you don't mind could you pls tell me is there any law which makes it compulsory that a fixed percentage of seats in colleges is reserved for specific races or is it universities choice ?
I thought USA is a land purely based on merit if it is merit based its good but if it is based on race it is adverse
@@Harshavardhan-no7ri NEED SOME BURNOL!!!! SINCE US ALSO ACCEPTING DIVERSITY HELPING WEAKER SECTION
@@Harshavardhan-no7ri There is no law that specifies a fixed percentage of any race, but it is widely practised. For decades, the percentage of Asian Americans admitted into elite colleges stays the same, even though the number of Asian American applicants has vastly increased.
@@handyman8764 I see . Thanks for replying
Race and gender should not be considered. If they are the other side is discriminated against. The class point has merit but the best way is to start much earlier and give everyone the same leg up or opportunities.
What's the word for when you choose someone over someone else, because of the colour of their skin?
Why do people have stronger feelings about affirmative action than legacy admissions? There are more legacy admits that don’t meet the grades+test score rigor than black or Hispanic students, but you hardly hear this topic in the comments.
I agree 100% that race should NEVER be a factor in anything. I would argue colleges shouldn't even be able to see your name until you attend, since they could tell from that alone. If something is outside of your control, it shouldn't be asked on college admissions.
I think race is an important factor in may things, for example, hair style and sunscreen usage
@@whaleman719 I may have worded it poorly, but for your examples I still don't think hair stylists and sunscreen vendors should deny people service because of race.
@@whaleman719lmao
If you have a state that choses to use "race blind admission policies" and the number of black and Latino/Lanita admissions goes down, It then becomes clear. It's not a racial issue. There is a deeper issue of these two groups having other problems that lead to an inability to get high enough admission scores.
The main factor is the fathers
@@Lodocihelfather’s!!! Sure…
Not necessarily true considering many legacy students are Asian and White. The admission of Black and Latino students would go down and the amount of White and Asian legacy students would definitely increase. Legacy students are the issue, their wealth and socioeconomic status gets them into the schools
Short answer, NO
Diversity based on how much of a coloring chemical you have in your skin shouldn't matter
Diversity of thought is what really matters
Nothing like solving discrimination with discrimination.
“I’m going to stop calling you a white man, and I’m gonna have to ask you to stop calling me a black man” - Morgan Freeman
Let me save you the six minutes
No, it shouldn’t
Race and gender should not be a factor
Your determination should be the key on whether you should get into college.
If you do well at school then it should be simple as that.
I appreciate the neutral stance on this video. Thank you
We try to be balanced -- and as honest as possible about where we are coming from. We are honestly curious to investigate a variety of arguments/perspectives and let our viewers weigh in with their own informed opinions.
Neutral?😂
@@piggymadbr0 Make a neutral video about the subject matter too so I can judge, I will wait, so let me know when you are done ( of course it isn't perfect)
FEDERAL 'free money lack of reserve 'BANK make a video about how long affirmative action has been going on. History and how it has a new name but yet the message that they have in writing is not happening. Go ahead I’ll wait.
FEDERAL 'free money lack of reserve 'BANK this video wasn’t neutral at all I think you should watch it with audio on
Students with low SAT scores also have low Writing skills, low verbal skills and no study habits just can't cut it. Only 57% graduate. Better to go to Community college, gain skills and tgen transfer.
Even if people aren't for affirmative action, has there been any evidence that affirmative action will make the admission progress better for all?
Thank you for breaking this down. For some reason, I always had such a hard time understanding how to properly explain AA to others, but you worded it in such a way that's easy to digest.
Thanks for this positive feedback!
I’m Asian. I wouldn’t mind this if it also favors Asians to play in professional sports. They don’t much or barely any playing in sports so therefore, my skin color should be included.
The biggest problems I have about affirmative actions in admissions -
1. Color does not indicate diversity. Why the schools do not look for diversified Asians? Why they don’t admit less academically sound Asians who have unique experiences? So the diversity claim is a lie.
2. Under the strict scrutiny test, the schools could have get ride of the legacy admission program so they can create more diversity.
We shouldn't wish for easier times, we should wish to be stronger.
No. You either do the work to get in or you don’t. I’d rather have a doctor that worked to get there and is good at his job because of that work than a doctor who got there because he was black, brown, or whatever colour you want to pick. I don’t even know why this is an issue. Nothing good comes from making yourself a victim.
Asians are being taught at a very young age that education is the great equalizer.in society. No matter if you are rich or poor, if you are well educated, you can create your own opportunities. Education is about learning and gaining knowledge of many generations of people before us. Thus, it's a transfer of knowledge and experience. People seem to not realize this.
👏👏 my grandparents came to Canada from a war torn South Korea and realized they were willing to sacrifice everything to make sure all 6 of their children get education. Education was priority, and they were willing to sacrifice everything to attain that for their kids. Education is a great stepping stone to get away from generational povery.
This is the best, and I mean absolutely the best, video on this topic I have ever seen. It shows both arguments as if each was given by the proponents of their respective side.
In my opinion, I lean towards the negative on whether race and sex should be a factor in college admissions. I don't believe class nor legacy status should be factors either. Merit, in my opinion, should be the only factor in discriminating among humans. This goes for hiring and promotions as well.
Reverse discrimination sounds a lot like reverse racism to me. Neither exist. You're either racist, or you're not. You either discriminate, or you don't. Discriminating to "correct" past discrimination is just regular discrimination, not "reverse" discrimination. I also find the idea of discriminating against a current generation to "equalize" the population due to past discrimination, or to promote equity, does nothing to those that benefited from past discrimination at the expense of those that were not alive to benefit from that discrimination. I also find equity to be a futile goal. That is to say equity is not even a good goal. Equity is nothing more than "forced equality."
As Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said: "Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
I believe in equal opportunity. We should remove obstacles of opportunity rather that present obstacles to those that have historically done better. We should do this regardless of whether or not those who have succeeded previously received an unfair advantage. This is because, as I have stated above, those who have benefited from the discrimination of the past are not the same people who would be discriminated against today, no matter how much we think they look alike.
Thanks for your feedback on the video, and also though fully sharing your opinion about this issue!
@Mira M Reparations are not needed.
Instead we should promote a culture of success. I haven't thought too deeply on this, but I would suggest school choice with a twist. Nationalize and privatize k-12 education, giving private schools the option to opt-in to school funds on a per-student basis. Competition will cause private and public schools to compete for students with highly successful education as well as additional programs focusing on arts, sports, and/or sciences.
This twist is: we should target neighborhoods with high youth delinquency rates and offer parents the option to send their children to boarding schools. This option will allow the most at-risk children to avoid pitfalls when they are most vulnerable, keeping them away from the highest temptations of delinquency. This should all but erase the difference in starting points for children of different backgrounds, and should allow them to close the remaining gap significantly by the time they are applying for college.
I'd like to continue this thought experiment and would appreciate your input.
College applicants should be assigned a # so that their name, gender, race or anything like that is unknown.
Feel like anytime race is taken into account to approve or disapprove someones advancement, its automatically racist. Race/gender shouldn't ever be on applications, merit only.
You see a problem with minorities acceptance to college. So you decide to force colleges to accept some minorities. Now you have two problems. Not only minorities still get discriminated against, but some brilliant white cis males get rejected when they have a far better application than their minority counterpart.
You just don't solve discrimination with more discrimination, dammit! Get your shit together america.
You want an actual solution?
How about making college applications anonymous?
How about randomly reviewing the candidate selection process of colleges and fireing / sueing the cases of discrimination?
If a fair admission policy still gets more white people in, then maybe the problem is in the undergrad education system...
Ceelvain dumbass Asians have to do better than whites, don’t say all minorities. Only blacks and Hispanics get that advantage.
A rebuttal that you can accept or reject... A premise of affirmative action is that white people are able to do better in school BECAUSE of the school system’s discrimination against black people. In my state of Illinois, inner city schools receive 26% less funding than other schools in the state. These schools, which have extremely high black and Hispanic enrollment, have nowhere near the amount of resources as suburban schools like my own. Furthermore, students of color often report being discouraged (directly or indirectly) from taking AP classes, which are almost mandatory to get into a competitive school. I’ve done two research papers on the achievement gap in schools and I find overwhelming evidence that it’s harder for minorities to be successful. This is why affirmative action was created and why I believe it’s necessary.
@@__________________4241 If you have done the research you also know that Affirmative action has had no net positive effect on the black representation in college campus. Arguably it has had a net negative impact on the communities it is supposed to benefit. The black community is represented 35% less in college campuses than the 1960s even though more governmental measures have been introduced to help them get in.50% of the black student body in highly sought after universities make up the bottom 10% of the student body who are failing their classes. The worst effect of affirmative actions is felt at the extremes, for example a black student is 4 times as likely to fail at the Bar exam which is the final exam undertaken by law students to be recognized as lawyers. In the sciences in particular the Asian population has risen despite being marginalised and being a bigger minority than black people despite affirmative action because of strong ideals and family structure of asian american households. Black students are also significantly more likely to drop out of college so the problem isn't solved just be letting them in. The major problem is cultural and communal aspects which can't be solved by government intervention. The single mother/father rate has risen from 25% in the 60s to almost 80% today, and social scientists have a general consensus that the single most important factor in determining financial and academic success is the presence of 2 parents in a house for a child. This is seen in all races that children with 2 parents do far better than those with single parents. The inherent problem seems to be that the black community has a disproportionately high single parenthood rate than any other community in American and hence the youth are involved in various socially unacceptable behaviour and a net decrease in academic performance. Besides the results there is also the question of the morality of affirmative action and the how it discriminates on the basis of race which is the same form of discrimination that it is trying to correct - you see how ironic that sounds.
But why does the brilliant white kid deserves the spot more than a brilliant black kid? Why does a brilliant man deserves the spot more than a brilliant woman?
Why is there the assumption that a white student automatically has a better application than a black student?
Wouldn't it also be discrimination to not allow people with low test scores or bad applications to attend a university?
Is it fair to deny a brilliant black candidate a spot, simply to make room for a legacy candidate or an average white candidate?
The fact that anti-affirmative action ppl automatically assume and imply that the white candidate is better, smarter, and more qualified is one of the reason affirmative action was first put into law. The assumption is always that the white candidate is overqualified while the "ethnic" candidate is underqualified.
@@__________________4241 I fvcking love your username!!
And you make a really good point that is ALWAYS left out of these conversations. There's a lot of determining factors that plays a huge role in the lifetime if a student from kg to bachelors or masters even. Statistics doesn't always show nor account for these nuances For example, while I had access to AP classes and where encouraged by teachers, I didn't have the money to take the exams. I had access to avid and other extracurricular clubs/courses to boost my college application, I didn't have the money to pay for all trips and books these clubs required.
Yet again another great video! However, when you mentioned the current Harvard case, I was hoping you’d talk briefly about the fact that Asian Americans are a minority, but are considered overrepresented within universities and how that does or does not affect the overarching stance of affirmative action.
They are appropriately represented in non-affirmative action universities because they are on-average smarter than the other racial groups.
@@SupLuiKir I doubt it has anywhere near as much to do with intelligence as it does with environmental factors. Financial, parental, and cultural factors have a way stronger correlation with success than race or sex or whatever other arbitrary classification.
@@SupLuiKir I might possibly agree for Asian being smart but they put more efforts. We are justifying waist of efforts for intelligent that isn't necessarily the true.
@@DWHalse A lot of Asians who come to the US didn't drive in their home countries, so they're learning late in life, which makes it harder. How do the Asian Americans you know drive?
Its because they support minority success... except the minorities they're jealous of.
Think about it from this point of view. You get a 36 on the ACT, 4.5 GPA, never had a criminal record, you want to become an oncologist. But harvard refuses you because you're Korean. Instead they admit a black girl with a 28 on the ACT or a white guy with a 30. Affirmative action isnt antiracist. Its just racist towards a different race than usual. Everything should be based on merit. Btw that story was about my cousin. I know 6 others with similar stories.
I would focus the effort & $ on pre k and family building we need dads in the home + incentives to keep families together. By the time college comes around the smartest kids get in, truth be told the trades are where the money's at ... government debit not worth it
I twice applied for an SBA loan and both times they wouldn't accept any applications unless I was a minority. The same for several college scholarships I tried to get. I worked my way through college by paying every cent myself. I was denied a job because I was white and was told so to my face. I later was outbid on contracts, not because I wasn't the lowest bidder, but because minority, or women owned contractors were given preference. It's been this way since the 60's.
That’s a hilarious lie, cry me a river.
I tried to explain to one of my lefty friends that rejecting a white person for a university placement or job because they are white is the definition of discrimination. He couldn't wrap his head around it. He kept saying he disagrees with me and black people need help to succeed.
I’m a Hispanic with learning disabilities still having trouble with English Grammar and spelling in community college, if I take honors classes with good GPA, SAT, ACT, essay, and work hard I’ll be fine?
I think there should be studies about where the discrepancies lie. Basically, look at which groups are the most underrepresented in colleges.
What are the things that _should_ have no impact on whether or not someone can get into college, but actually very much do?
Economic status is most likely an extremely large reason. Race and gender both used to be extremely large reasons, and we shouldn't remove affirmative action until we're sure they stopped being a major part of it.
Instead of asking whether we should replace affirmative action with things that help low-income people of all races, why not ask "how can we help _both_ groups get a better foothold?"
Loved this video! Neutral and educational. 😁❤
While I do stand on the merit side of the argument I do appreciate how neutral this video was trying to be :) people will say he was arguing more on one side but I think he did a good job trying to be unbiased
Here’s a question: why are parent’s rights considered so much more important than children’s rights in cases of abuse/neglect?
Isn't Harvard Business Review run by Harvard? It's kind of a conflict of interest to include that in Pros.
To answer the original question, no. Caltech got it right years ago.
Just because there are people of diverse color and gender on a campus doesn’t mean students are being taught to interact with people who are different from the well because most people on college campuses have the same opinions extreme and opposite examples would be U.C. Berkley and BYU
I personally think it should be class-based (and no, I wouldn't benefit from this) because meritocracy is a myth when there are people who can't afford basic school supplies or time to go to school.
I think it used to be necessary, but in a more socially aware society it seems unnecessary
Thanks for sharing both sides of the AA policy. Using race as the sole standard has many unintended side effects. First, it makes some URMs feel entitled. Second, it's unfair to other poor black, Latino, white and Asian students. When a rich black or Latino kid gets accepted to a selective college without academic achievements, they at least take away the opportunity from a poor black or Latino student with academic accomplishment. Usually the rich black/Latino families have the resource and knowledge to help their kids take advantage of AA. I have seen many examples of these around me. The intent of AA is noble. But it needs to be modified to server all poor, under-privileged students instead of just any black or Latino student.
holy shit.. this is such a totally uninformed and uncritical perspective. That's not how _anything_ works in reality.
AA could definitely use some (read: a lot of) improvement, but you are clearly understanding how it works on a fundamental level because that's not how anything works. Seriously, please go look into it.
I think it should also be based on income and area
That I can see. Getting a 3.0 in a poverty stricken community with no real rescources and constant struggles is more impressive and takes for more work than getting a 4.0 in beverly hills.
One of the best, most comprehensive and succinct break downs of this issue I’ve seen yet. Great job and thank you!! Subscribed! Btw, it’s interesting what happened in Florida.
Thanks for watching and subscribing!
The solution is just don't ask people to mention their race, if colleges will not know your race, they won't be able to discriminate you.
Modern Football the issue is historically black people have always been disadvantaged for college. Because of Slavery they weren’t able to get proper education for the longest time and when they did because segregation it was lower quality. The affirmative action was made to legal the playing froid.
You know I had my doubts about this video. But well done. Your skin color or gender should not be a factor for a job or college admission. I'm mixed and got in a college just fine here in Nebraska.
It is a factor though. That's why affirmative action was introduced. It gives opportunity to groups traditionally excluded. It's an attempt to break the cycle. Without affirmative action, an employer can decide he doesn't want women working for him. Why? Because a woman can get pregnant and miss work. So he can decide to hire only men. Affirmative action means he must hire women.
Why don't you mention what Thomas Sowell says about Affirmative Action? It's very enlightening.
It's a policy which is hard for the student of the 21st century to understand and accept.
It’s easy to ignore something when it isn’t happening to you. I am an African American Woman and do not stand for Affirmative Action at all! Nobody of any ethnicity deserves to have their hard work to be diminished! And to think of how important education is to Asians it hurts my heart. We black can try harder but we put more importance on other things. Asians shouldn’t have to experience this racism because of our shortcomings that we keep blaming others for. There are better ways than this blatant racism
Angela Roberts I appreciate your comment so much. Most Asians to prioritize education over most things. In Asian culture, a lot of times if your parents are traditional then they want you to have a good job and go to a good school so you can have a good life and take care of them when they’re old. Point is no matter what race or gender you are, you should get into the school if you’ve earned it.
I think Affirmative action is a very weak response to helping minorities get to more higher education, I think our we should be starting give more resources in our schools as early as elementary to schools with little to no resources at all, that way it will help jumpstart our kids to help them earn the degree not by the color of their skin but how well educated they are...also I’d probably rearrange the ENTIRE education system in America as it is broken both academically and financially.
affirmative action should be gone. We need to pick a person base on their merit. I rather have the best doctor than a mediocre doctor js
Instead of using race as a factor, it should be how many chances they had in life.
I enjoyed this video. It's quite balanced and informative.
This issue is currently on California's general election. Search for Prop 16.
450 points is not 1 question wrong. Asians had to score on average 450 points more on SAT than African Americans.
It starts in the home, valuing education and emphasizing success in studying. Men not standing up to their responsibilities as fathers and husbands hurts the family and children's ability to succeed in so many ways.
And you know this because you raised surgeons and pilots and business executives?
@@vanessagamino6826 "You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it." Barack Obama 6/15/2008
There are highly qualified students turned away because of donor parents of other applicants. Some people have many more resources at tutors, application quality control, and other advantages that give them an unfair advantage at the purely merit-based analysis. When more people are given an opportunity, that diversifies the wealth as more jobs are given to a more diverse group of people, which benefits the state and the individual communities the applicants inhabit.
Five decades ago it was a necessary wrong serving a greater good. Nowadays it’s a ridiculous notion. You don’t solve racism with more racism, especially when the racism is a fiction.
Difficulty of growing up a minority? That's the problem with the world today. Everyone wants to assume your upbringing based on the color of your skin. Stop caring what you and everyone else looks like. Stop throwing pitty parties. Do your best and do everything you can to get where YOU want to go and be. If you grew up poor, DONT become a product of your environment. Just because your parent's didn't do so well, doesn't mean you also have to follow in the same path. I hate when people blame their upbringing and their parents. You can still do well and succeed in life. It's called HARD WORK. Just because you got rejected by one college, go find another one. F those people! ..... that is all.
No it should never matter. if if there are scholarships for that specific race. it should not be like this. it should go to who ever is qualified. I hate filling out that section when applying for a job or anything. either way there is an interview and that's how someone should get to know the real you.
The thing is, Affirmative Action is too little too late. If we really want to diversify elite university campuses, then we need to get serious about giving a quality education to all children from kindergarten up, regardless of tax bracket. This is definitely not the case today (in the U.S. anyway)
exactly!
Diana Watson thank you for not being a racist idiot and using common sense
I believe it should exist. With class; not race. However, don't know what this would look like. How many of what income level are given an advantage... I do believe that a young man or woman, who overcame a poor socioeconomic situation, to achieve one point less on their sat than another who didn't face the same challenge is advantageous. Giving them a place in the college generates an environment of different cultures and would prove more beneficial to the student's.
I signed up for a local job finder organization and minorities got served first and I was pushed all the way to the bottom and it took them ages to find me a job but lucky for me I already found something without their help
I feel like a better way of looking at affirmative action is through the lens of redlining class and generational wealth gaps imo. if you understand how blacks were placed in redlined areas and these areas that laid low property taxes which fueled low income school districts, the children of these poor school districts should be considered exceptional
No. It’s skewed by design. There is nothing fair about it. You’d be better off raising the standard of education in pre school primary & elementary schools than handing out university places to people who didn’t earn them, just happened to be the right colour to tick a box.
Does anybody care to estimate how long AA will be "needed"? A century? A millenium?
No. Government institutions should never discriminate (positively or
negatively) based on race etc. In short, the state should not be racist. Simple
as that.
How pompous of one or a few colleges to believe they are the only institutions to promote diversity. In fact, there are thousands of colleges that will accept African American students according to their academic level. It is not Harvard’s job to play the ‘Sorting Hat’. Just focus on academic performance.
I think that it shouldn't, but class should. There are people, of all races, who have grown up poor or in poorer areas where they don't get the same opportunities as the people of high classes. Or the government can just make all schools and opportunities equal from the beginning
As an Indian I was given options broken bones or A grade
Both affirmative action and legacy positions are bad system that can only disadvantage the more qualified people
50 years ago we needed AC, but not today. It has become the new Chinese exclusion law now. It is also the soft bigotry of low expectation for black and Latino students. Btw, black and Latino students numbered were lowered at the beginning in CA colleges after AC was gone but over the years it has gone up, and back to where it was. And by merit! How great is that!
"Is Affirmative Action Fair" No obviously not. Duh
Now eliminate legacy and sports admissions too
I think Affirmative Action was good originally but I don't think it is necessary anymore.
Yeah I agree with the person who asked “why is this even a question.”
Yeah... why is this even a question?
Great video do a part 2 or follow up
I appreciated this. It felt unbiased for the most part, provided arguments for both sides, and was concise. Now that there is no affirmative action, it’s interesting to see the opinions people held in the past. I’m a Hispanic working on getting into medical school and I’m glad I won’t have to feel like I got a ‘boost’ to get in. My hard work got me where I am; however, I also empathize with those less fortunate, and I hope we don’t abandon the efforts to give them every chance to rise above their humble beginnings. I was raised military, and I went to a few amazing public schools growing up. I also went to some terrible schools where I would come home and complain to my parents about how the teachers didn’t teach anything that day because they didn’t feel like it and just turned a ‘Bill Nye’ episode on for us. If you want my 2 cents, we should be paying teachers more to make teaching positions more competitive in the US. Good teachers are few and far between in some schools, and it just shouldn’t be that way.
Thanks for watching and leaving such a thoughtful comment!
I am more of the opinion that people who are economically disadvantaged should be helped from the beginning. I am no expert but I think this could change something rather than fulfilling some quotes.
Admission should based on merit instead of race and social standing.
Imagine that you are a police officer, you have been assigned a partner based on race alone. This partner could have been a qualified person, yet you got someone who can’t hit anything on the range, And is in the job solely because he is black. Not only has a more qualified person been rejected from a job, but when you are being shot at, can you really trust this man with your life?
We witness an epidemic of a mental health disorder: Elite University Admission Neurosis. This neurosis leads to severe depression and anxiety arising from either not achieving elite university admission or from acquiring massive college debt among those who graduate. This is why I attended a private university undergraduate only with full academic scholarship and why I attended post-graduate public university and why I sent all my children to public universities.
Try because Asians have an incredibly intelligent culture and they deserve to be at Harvard
Nigerians too
When twice as many people with perfect SATs apply to Harvard as can be admitted, they have to use something besides test scores. GPA depends on your school, after-school activities depend on your community, claims of "purely merit based" admissions are pretty thin. At an elite school it's almost never the case that a "less meritorious" student got in because of race, or was excluded because of race. There are just a lot more "sufficiently meritorious" students than there is space for. Would a random lottery make students more happy? Somehow that doesn't seem like the snowflake response to losing a lottery.
If you're meritorious enough to get into Harvard, you are going to do well in any university. Harvard just isn't enough better to be worth the angst. Go to Yale, or Princeton, or Johns Hopkins, ... . A much bigger problem is that the demographics of the "meritorious enough" group doesn't match society very well. Harvard's been trying to change that for decades, but they are constrained by the folks who apply. Harvard is fortunate that many, many more people apply than can be admitted, but every university doesn't see qualified students that match their diversity goals.
Race isn't the issue in these admissions statistics, the race problem is in public school. Not enough students of color see themselves as intellectuals destined for college and great things. It's not "hip" or "popular". Too many see sports, band, or mischief as the hallmarks of their school experience. Expertise needs to be valued more in families and society, and expected regardless of racial or social status.
Nobody has used the term "pure merit" and nobody has said "merit" = just test scores. Two strawmen in one.
" At an elite school it's almost never the case that a "less meritorious" student got in because of race, or was excluded because of race. "
This is a bald-faced lie. That's literally what's been happening and literally what "Affirmative Action" is.
" A much bigger problem is that the demographics of the "meritorious enough" group doesn't match society very well"
Your racism is showing. I suggest stop viewing people by their race and view them as individuals. Then your problem will go away. Stopping being a racist removes a lot of racism from society.
Weirdly, how demographic groups do correlates almost perfectly with IQ scores. Which would suggest it has little to nothing to do with systemic factors. The only real systemic factor warping this re: race/sex etc is affirmative action and "diversity" quotas-- ie racial and sex discrimination. Which is the function of such policies.
If you make something other than actual merit a factor in college admissions than actual merit matters less. It's simple math.
Doesn't matter and it doesn't matter because if they don't want you in you won't be in, period.
When Howard, Fisk, Tuskegee, Morehouse, and every HBCU finally have to shut their doors-- you can thank good old affirmative action. But of course those aren't the "good schools" we're trying to get into, right?
Affirmative Action is why I fight for trans-racial rights
No it should not be a factor, just like gender. The problem with race and gender should be solved through education, supporting low-income families and strict laws against racism. We should treat the roots of the problem rather than its surface
The people saying race should be considered in college admissions are the same people saying race doesn't exists...
For those kids don't want to put efforts in learning, why they deserve an equal chance in admission