Miter Saw Calibration - Runout
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- Опубликовано: 9 авг 2018
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Perfect Enough.
Man, no wonder your work is so tastey.
Perfectionist.
Again great work pal
Hi. I’m a polished carpenter for over 25 years. I do mid range to high end work. The information you provide is outstanding. I have been taking the time to calibrate my equipment and it has made my work so much better and believe it or not easier to do. Thanks for the videos and time you spend putting them together.
And thank you Sir, for confirming my statement. This guy must be an Angel sent from the wood shop of Heaven. 🧞♂️
I checked my Bosch 12” Glide. .008” runout with a Forrest 12”. After Rotating the blade 180 degrees the runout dropped to .002”. It doesn’t visually wobble anymore. Cheers
Excellent demonstration on the correct method for dialing in blade runout. I have a machinist background & this method is correct. A dial indicator with a mag base utilized on the miter saw blade as well as the table saw blade is the most accurate way to take measurements. There are other methods, i.e., squares with feeler gauges are a legitimate alternative too as I use both methods as a way of double checking my dial indicator. Thank you for putting this out there sir... :-)
Very good, thank you!
This test is only if you want to saw with precision with a miter saw. (test is not for rough work).
Tips and Test:
Very important if you would like to saw with precision. (avoid torsion as much as possible)!
Always choose a Miter saw with a handle positioned in a vertical line above the saw blade.
Everything must be aligned, slide rails, handle, and saw blade,it is much better this way the blade will not tilt.
Because there is some torsion in the aluminum housing .
And choose an engine with softstart on it to prevent wear of the gear and worm shaft.
It is very important that everything is aligned.
Here are some examples to show how the handle must be positioned above the blade.
Bosch gcm 800 sj / Bosch gcm 8 sjl / Evolution rage 3 / FESTOOL KS 60 / HITACHI C12RSH2 / FESTOOL KS 60 E KAPEX / Metabo KGSV 72 Xact / Bosch GCM 8 SDE
(This also is the case with the Miter saw without the slide rails).
If you want you can test it yourself at home if there is torsion in the aluminum housing.
Step-1. First you make a clean sharp saw cut from +-5 mm deep in to a nice flat piece of wood about +- 20 mm thick. To this with the normal handle positioned on the right side of the Miter saw.
Step-2. Then repeat this by pushing the saw blade down with your hand (finger) on the aluminum protective cover were the saw blade is cased in. Just now only do this without the running engine.
Step-3. Now you can see if the saw blade will be positioned in or next to the saw cut. If the saw blade is (+- 0,2 / 0,5 mm) next to the saw cut then there is torsion in the aluminum housing.
Step-4. Therefor it is much better to choose a Miter saw with the handle positioned vertical in line above the saw blade.
The second option is the handle positioned horizontal in line above the saw blade.
Step-5. When you measure the vertical angle square (Digital level box) of you're sawblade don't forget that there is always some torsion in the aluminum housing.
Conclusion: how further away the handle is from the saw blade how more chance of torsion in the aluminum housing.(don't go for that).
Also with a cheap slide miter saw it is still better the handgriff a above the saw blade than on the right side. Maybe they will make it someday then we have a winner...
That makes a lot of sense - I actually use the offset handle to adjust cuts sometimes because of the torsion. Will have to try a straight handle to see diff for sure.
Nooice!
Thanks for the video..I have a question..What would you say in acceptable blade run for a dewalt 745 jobsite saw ..out the box I'm getting 0.7mm(027") variation when with a dial gauge.. I'm in two minds whether to return the saw or maybe my expectations are too high for this kind of tool.. I'd really appreciate your opinion... Thanks
how often do you sharpen your blades?
Thanks for the post. How would you say the blade you link in the comments compares with the comparable Forrest "Chopmaster" blade? I have used Forrest for years and find it interesting that another could be better. The plate tolerance on Forrest is a large part of what you pay for, a primary factor in the type of precision tune-up you demonstrate.
Excellent video. My old Mitersaw used a washer on both sides of the blade and neither one of them were flat. Spent some time getting those flat and had to do the back washer on both sides. Made a world of difference regarding run out. That was years ago. I still have that saw but only use it for decking, etc.
I too like the Dewalt 12”. Have you had a chance to try out the new version of the Festool Kapex or the Bosch with the articulating arm? I played with the Bosch in the store and it seemed to me that it had quite a bit of side to side play in it using the sliding function so I got the Dewalt. Anyone have any thoughts regarding the Bosch mechanism?
The bosch is horrible. They actually sent me one for free about 18 months ago. I never even used it the deflection was so bad. I haven't used the new kapex but others say there is a noticeably better power difference. Time will tell if the new one holds up.
Cool video! I'm not familiar with mitre saws but if theres a removable backing plate/washer behind the blade you could consider getting a machine shop to put a slick finish on it with a surface grinder. On the other hand, if blades aren't "perfect" then you wouldn't want the backing to be perfect either because you wouldn't be able to calibrate it like the video shows. Thanks for the video and all the best in 2020
This is an absolute gem of a comment and nobody knows. If there’s anyone who knows the science of flat it’s machine shops for engines.
Incidentally I've tried different blades with the same result and also measured out run at the Arbor 0.05mm variation.. be really interested to know if it's worth fettling the arber or just return for a better example.
Its been a while since I have done it but I'm going to say .02 was the best I ever got after adjusting blade to arbor. A good blade you can slap on and be between .07 and less. Cheap blades are generally going to start out more than .07.
I think the rotation of the blades creates centrifugal for which streches the blade flat. An analogy is spinning pizza dough.
@8:11 I’m curious if those are metal fence extensions on your other saw, if so, what fasteners are used to attach such thin material? Btw, i actually commented on one of your other videos about another youtubers calibration tutorial, not realizing you had this series. There’s was great but this is even a bit more in depth.
Google custom fabricating solutions, easy speedy zero clearance fences. You can purchase them for most any saw.
Can't see but be sure and load the stem of that gauge for best accuracy by pulling back on stem when mounting. Find the lowest spot and measure from there in setting gauge. That blade is about average that I see. The blade is probably flatter than the mounting flanges.
David Davis a very good point on loading (ensuring it is under pressure) the stem of the gauge. He did load it but didn’t clearly point it out. The point is to ensure you don’t end up fluttering between loaded and unloaded; you get ugly readings that you don’t want to depend upon.
How do you deal with a 15 thousands out with a brand new forester and a brand new saw? I'm soo upset😥
Great explanation. This goes a little beyond my previous standards but Im looking forward to giving this a try to see the benefits. The web sites for the industrial blades you run do not seem as easy as amazon to find and purchase what your looking for. It would be great if there was a link for that too if that’s possible.
I'll get it linked up. Thanks! ballewsaw.com/fs-tool-sm6300-xl4000-mitre-joint-s.html
Insider Carpentry great. Thanks for the help!
I’m not a carpenter but I like tight miters.
Maybe I need a better blade like yours instead of a Milwaukee blade.
Thank You!
Can you explain better what you're doing with the arbor? Sounds like you're essentially "truing" the saw blade? Almost like a bicycle wheel.
I don’t understand how he made adjustments, can someone explain?
Indy Vin Nothing is perfect, so if you think about that then the arbor could be out by 3/1000 and the blade could be out by 3/1000; that would give it 6/1000. Of course, that’s if both alignment problems are perfectly aligned with each other. So, he’s moving the blade around to see if he can get the differences to cancel each other out to some extent and get it down to a lower number. In a perfect world you could get to zero; but you’ll never get to perfect. So, you find the sweet spot where the thing has the smallest number you can readily achieve. Take a look at a machinist video and you will see them working to center something in a lathe; they have adjustments they can make (including a hammer bump) and normally accept an off center of 1-2/1000 then let the lathe take care of the rest. But they also are worried about this across something that can be 10” or 10’ in length.
I understand the steps you took but I don’t understand how it changed the outcome.
At first I was a little unsure too on how the runout was being corrected. But then I read up on runout, and realized that it's always a hit and miss technique for trying to fix it. The assumption is that the face of the arbour isn't perfectly parallel to the face of the blade, and the experiments with offsetting the two from their original alignment is to see if they can mate in a more parallel way in a different orientation. At least that's how I understand it.
Thanks for all of these great videos, I've learned a ton and find them very well done.
@@deanmissikowski5514 thats the goal. Finding the spot with the least runout as the final spot to tighten the blade.
Mike Zurynski yep, its all about getting the differences to the point where they cancel each other out as best as possible.
Great videos man, well done. I’m gonna tune up my Kapex this week. So far because of you I’ve bought a ton of new tools. Have you got a store or an amazon affiliate code?
Yes, I put the amazon store link above. Anything you buy through my links/store lists helps support the channel. Thanks! www.amazon.com/shop/insider_carpentry
Enjoy calibrating the bevel if it needs it. The bevel on the kapex is a bitch to adjust which is why I sold mine.
@@ThekiBoran I wish I could sell mine. I have two and neither motors work. And I don't finish homes. I build stores which usually take 8 - 12 weeks each start to finish. The finishing work is usually the last couple weeks so I don't use them everyday but motors are done. I have a lot of Festool that I love and use a lot and would replace but not the Kapex.
@@pdwinc.1077
I was able to get $1100 for mine. It helps that it was still under warranty and also because it wasn't an every day tool. It sat on its bench in my garage and still looked pristine.
I replaced it with the LS1219L and I really wish I would have gotten the Dewalt 780. The Makita is nice and it's accurate but there's no way I'd buy one for every day on the job. The bevel and miter knob that you have to screw are annoying. I like the miter lever of the Dewalt and the bevel screw takes a quarter turn or so loosen/tighten. I've used extensively Dewalt, Makita, Hitachi and Festool and out of those 4 the Dewalt is my preference. Properly calibrated and with a good blade it does an excellent job. The light on the 780 is nice too, not to line up a cut but to see your mark.
By moving the blade with your fingers you are creating more run out, use the wrench to turn the arbor from the center and I guarantee you will not get those readings
J Dawes The reading I’m looking at is when my fingers are off the blade.
Maybe you should first check for any end play by putting pressure on the blade perpendicular to the blade plane and release. Then the opposite direction and release. You may have a few thousands end play. I'm a machinist not a finish carpenter. Just my 2 cents.
I'm no machinist so I'll take any advice I can get.
@@InsiderCarpentry thanks. Basically check for end play before run-out. I guess there should be virtually zero end play checked close to the center of the blade as possible.
I do the same when balancing my bench grinder wheels. But what you're doing is borderline idiotic to anyone else whom isn't OCD.
Are you really that concerned with the few hundreds of thousands that you might save in the total width of your kerf ?