Fujifilm Manual Focus Perfection? | Voigtlander 35mm f/1.2 Nokton Review
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- FINALLY! Someone has dropped the perfect manual focus experience for Fujifilm. The Voigtlander 35mm f/1.2 Nokton provides by far the non-AF option.
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If you liked the 35mm, you're going to love the 23mm F1.2. I received mine late last week and spent the weekend shooting with it on my X-Pro3. I have the XF 23mmF1.4 R LM WR and, frankly, I find this Voigtlander so much more fun to shoot with. Is it as sharp as the Fuji? Uh, no. Not even close. But what it lacks in sharpness (compared to that lens), it absolutely makes up for in character. Shooting those lenses back-to-back, my wife kept picking the unedited images shot with the Nokton as her favorites.
I just ordered the Voightlander 23MM for my XPro bodies. What are your thoughts after a few months of ownership?
So it’s probably closer to the old 23mm 1.4 Fuji then.
you can turn off the manual focus checking if you feel it's annoying to zoom into 100% for every single picture. hope it helps you or maybe someone already does :)
Showing the lens on the camera body and testing whether it is imbalanced or knocks the camera forward while resting is the kind of stuff I really appreciate and don't find in other reviews, this is a real "how-is-this-in-use-for-real" review, really well done!
In looking through the works of 35mm film photographers of the 1950’s such as Saul Leiter, a fair number of the images are soft and leave one wishing for similar rendering but with somewhat improved sharpness and contrast. That’s where I see this lens slotting in. We have the razor sharp glass but we haven’t any native X mount glass that takes us say to 1957 until now. The lens seems to behave very similar to the 1.2/40 Nokton in M mount on a proper Fujifilm adapter but with much less bulk and a significant reduction in price. I’d love to spend a year with this lens and the new 1.4/33 on X-pro3 as it seems like the continuum of image charm would be tremendous and potentially rivaling the range of character of Leica with a 1959 1.4/50 V.1 Lux and 2/50 APO Summicron on M10.
Wow the images from that 7 Artisans lens look amazing for the money. I think I might prefer that over the Voigtlander even aside from money
Black and white simulation plus Red focus peaking - the Best for 35mm and more. Wide angle lenses - only zoom 100%
Great review. Subbed.
I totally get lenses with great character. But for this price we can buy 3 or5 amazing true vintage lenses like Fujinons, Rokkors etc that have amazing charicter.
For sure, the experience of the chipped lens as well as the size is really the kicker here for me.
While in general what you said is true, for Fujifilm shooters who need a 50mm FF equivalent "vintage" lens, this one is actually great, because vintage 35/1.4 lenses are usually too big/heavy. The only thing I can think of as an alternative is the Voigtlander's own VM Nokton 35/1.4 (I or II) that shares the same optics but is half a stop slower & can't focus as close & not chipped & requires an adapter. Of course for those who have a FF mirrorless, it is mostly a moot point because there are just so many 50mm 1.4 or 1.8 vintages that will offer similar character.
It worths due to lack of necessity of an adapter and metadata passed to the camera.
Any tips of standout vintage lens to check out?
@@kierand9410 Any of the Rokkors I love the 50mm 1.4 and it's cheap.
I have the Nikon mount version of this lens and the focus past infinity was a curve ball for me too. I'm not sure about the Fuji version but on the Nikon one there is an L-shaped symbol to indicate a range for infinity, similar to autofocus lenses.
If this lens had a Leica-style focus-tab, I would be all over it! - someone PLEASE make a native Fuji XF lens with a focus tab!
I'd also love it, but, for the time being, you can use adapted Leica m mount or LTM glass.
@@KratasCRAFT ...but with inaccurate focal distance scales :(
I've been curious about this lens, thanks for doing a video about it!
Exactly the review I was looking for. Really appreciate you sharing all the characteristics of this lens.
Native mount and CPU connect are nice additions. But for most of that vibe get the CV Nokton 40mm 1.4 M mount for like $300 used ($399 new).
I'm also a big fan of the Canon 50mm 1.4 LTM leica mount lens adapted to a Fuji. Vintage bokeh, glow wide open but always center sharp.
I have the Canon 50/1.2 LTM that I adapt onto my XPro2 a LOT, and the character of that lens for what I do is just perfect.
I can see the appeal of this lens when using an X-Pro series camera, but it's hard to argue with the value provided by 7artisans and Pergear with their 35mm f/1.2 lenses that cost roughly a quarter of the price. When I shot Sony, I extensively used the Nokton 40 1.4 and Voigtlander lenses are an absolute delight to work with. That said, I own the 7artisans 35mm 1.2 and 35mm 0.95, both of which seem optically on par with the 35mm 1.2 Voigtlander here and handle fairly well. If the Nokton was optically superior, I'd say it was a no brainer, but paying 4 times as much for exif data (I suspect many people would turn off the viewfinder zoom on focus) and a clicked aperture is a big ask.
I have my eyes on 23mm f1.2. Hopefully will be able to find a good price for it someday. Would be just the perfect lens for X-Pro 3 for that old school manual shooting style. Great size and manual focusing on x-pro 3 with digital rangefinder is a joy.
I don't have a X-e4 but in some models like the X-T4 you can turn the focus check option off. That way the viewfinder won't zoom in every time you focus on the lens.
I love the Voigtländer softness when using it wide open. But a manual lens that goes beyond infinity is useless. My Voigtländer 27 2.0 does not have this issue. It focuses perfectly.
hey benj! Thx for that. Exactly what i was Looking for. Do you maybe have some test shots with this beautiful flare? This is actually why i would buying this lense
Oslo! That's also the name of my hometown :-)
Weird with the infinity focus. I've never seen that on a Voigtländer before. Other than that, it looks like a very nice lens.
Don't know about voigtländer specifically, but it's pretty normal for manual lenses. Especially since age and thermal expansion can change the infinity focus point. So without that headroom it may not always be able to focus to infinity. (Insert global warming joke)
I love softness on a lens BUT. Without sharpness you cannot precisely focus with elettronic assistance. That's a problem ESPECIALLY in low lights. You can soften the image later but you cannot sharpen it or, worse, focus it. The thing that I really really want from voigtlander is a sharp pancake lens, not fast.
New 27mm f2 pancake coming out in June may fit the bill!
great review Benj, thanks for doing the comparisons
I really wish they’d put a tab or nub on the focus ring for quicker focus.
Would love to see someone do a video that compares this lens with the 7A 35 F1.2 mkii 😅
But no focus tab !? Why Voigtlander, why ya do us like this. Lolol
Just get the 7Artisans one
11:20 I like the voightlander look much more. It is not annoying, but pleasing look. The other has too smooth bokeh, as if done with photoshop field blur. The voightlander has a character that no software can replicate. I got the voightlander 35mm 1.2 Leica M mount. It is a full frame camera lens. I adapted it to my Fuji cameras, including GFX, but mainly using it on xt-4 for manual focus video purpose. It is a perfect match. I love it. I have new fujifilm 33mm 1.4 lens as well. It is too sharp for video, and manual focus is not that sensitive, and difficult to use with focus pull wheels. It has linear motor for autofocus. It could have a great potential, but I guess I dont need to mention about fujifilm's autofocus accuracy. I, 80% of the time, find myself choosing voightlander to fujifilm 33mm.
Been waiting for this review!
The infinite focus issue is apparently the same with adapted Voigtlander lenses on the Fujis and you have to focus it slightly back to be in infinite.
It's not a Fuji problem, the Nikon mount version of the lens works the same way
Benj, considering the cost of this lens, I think the 7Artisans 35mm f1.2 Mark II is a better buy for under $140 USD. It's a lens most of the RUclipsrs don't really talk about but if you're a street photographer and/or portrait shooter this lens is a beast.
Any old vintage lens is better than this chinese trash. UT is full of paid reviews on behalf if this junk.
If 7Artisans is paying for reviews, can I get on that train? Haha
@@utube321piotr what a negative comment. Please don't use my comment to spew your negativity. Be gone.
@@d.idowuolutosin4250When you speak nonsense publicly (or deliberate propaganda), you invite replies, ie. comments not necessarily according to your expectations. Take a RED pill and some aspirin.
@@utube321piotr get a girlfriend because it sounds like you need one. 🤣🤣🤣
yeah, it seems like my Voigtlander 58mm 1.4 goes beyond infinity as well and it's quite an issue when I use film camera :(
but I figure it out the infinity point natively on Nikon F mount (first part of infinity symbol) and with adapter on my Fuji X-T3 (between 20ft and infinity mark)
Why should you pay that much for softness, flares, chromatic aberrations etc. ? If you want to have a manual lens then I recommend the LAOWA Argus 33mm F0.95. It is cheaper, better, has F0.95, creates a red ring (if you want) when shooting against light but is bigger and heavier. I really like the design and the feeling of the Voigtländer but it is just too expensive for what you get. The LAOWA is just worth the money.
This lens is great. It shines on an XPro 3, and when used with the optical viewfinder and manual frame lines following the focus ring is outstanding. Kind of agree with the sharpness but the character works for me. With the contact points I kind of wish it had focus confirmation like the Canon mount Voightlander 40mm/f2 I had on my old 5D MK II. Manual focus with confirmation was nice but not a deal breaker.
Do you reckon it'll work on a X Pro 2?
@@rafaelmartua2425 unfortunately I don’t think so according to the website. Ild dbl check if you want to use the OVF. I’m sure it’s fine as far as the EVF. But also unsure if it will transfer exif info to the files
@@xjuanx92 i have also crosschecked. What a bummer! But i think the EVF on the X Pro 2 will work just fine
I just bought one to use exactly on the X-Pro3!
@@rafbass Congrats! You’re gonna love it!
I'd actually really like to see you do a comparison like this between Fuji's new 33mm and your 50 Summilux. Apples and oranges, I know - but it would be fun to see.
Ah yeah that would be fun. Maybe I’ll have to get in contact with Fuji :)
I recently got 27mm ULTRON F2 and I really really like real MF + body communication. I don’t know why nobody else is doing this.
I love the look of the M mount lens. The Nokton classic 35 mm f1.4 is the one I use on my xt200 with a Lm-fx adapter. It works amazingly and looks better to me
Fuji lists this lens to be incompatible with the adapter, have you faced any obvious issues with the lens on the Fuji mount?
@@rightangle.studio I’ve faced no issues. In fact, almost all the photos I’ve posted on my RUclips are shot with that lens. The lens works wonderfully on the camera
@@BorisTheShashlikKing thanks for confirming. I checked your videos, and it looked like 40mm 1.4 version and not 35mm, so wanted to confirm
Hey, thank you for a great review! I'm very very new to Fujifilm cameras and recently purchased X-H2S with a 35mm 1/4 lens and.... I hate it so far. This lens makes so much noise and as primarily a video shooter coming from a Panasonic Gh5 background, I so far find Fujifilm and these lenses a nightmare to work with. I did, however, use Voigtlander on my Panasonic camera before and loved it. I was wondering how does it perform vide-wise with Fuji? Have you tested it?
gimme a 23mm nokton f2.5 for fuji X with focus tab and no infinity issues and THAT would be a dream come true. thanks for the review good sir.
apparently a 23mm F1.2 asph. is indeed coming for X mount. if initial reviews are decent ill be on it. been waiting for high quality 35mm equiv manual focus lens for X for a loooong time now.
i have the 23mm f1.2. it's amazing.
Hi Ben, nice review. Maybe an idea for a future video.. your 'if I could only use 3 (m-mount) lenses' picks?
28 Summicron
50 Summilux
90/1.25 TTArtisan (!!!)
I was actually looking into this lens as well as some Voigtlander offerings in the Leica M mount variety. I'm wondering if adapting a Nokton classic 35mm f1.4 would be a good comparison (35mm f1.2 aspherical is a little too big for my taste). . . Thoughts?
I would second a comparison, as I am also considering both of these lenses for my xt-2 👍🏻
I've been going back and forth between the M mount f1.4 and this new X-mount one. Size seems like wash once you put the adapter on the M-mount one, and neither seems to get glowing reviews on sharpness from what I've seen. I'd love a head-to-head comparison from anyone that's used both, though, but that's a super niche comparison at that point.
I would also love to see this comparison 🙏🏻
Actually Benj did you notice the signature red ring flare from the m-mount versions? It's not rainbow but solid red and its always a very round perfect circle. It only comes out when facing the sun and certain angles.
The Nokton lenses are something special and nice to have in a world of optically perfected lenses. I have both of the new m-mount Ultrons which are far superior in optical corrections but I still kept my Nokton because the rendering is really fun and just sometimes you never know what you're gonna get with it.
Do you mean the Nokton aspherical? If so it's a totally different lens design to this one
Hi Benj!
Do you also notice the focusing ring being a bit „dry“ in comparison to other Voigts? I have a whole bunch for Nikon and they are all buttery smooth and well greased, where you barely hear them slide… this Fuji Nokton is my first to lack that nice focus ring…
Appreciate a short feedback, thanks!
Beautiful lens in use, great build, lovely bokeh. But the sharpness is terrible, even at moderate apertures. I had to return it because although it was better corrected than the 7artisans 35mm 1.2, the sharpness was about on par for around 1/5 of the price.
XF, not FX... FX is referred to Nikon Full Frame sensor bodies. Easy mistake to make.... As far as the review, I have always been on the fence about Voigtlander lenses. They seem great for what they are.
That lens looks great. I’m also a Fuji/Leica scooter. Love your content!
Question: when using manual dumb adapted lens. Can you use manual focus assist other than focus peaking? Like split image/microprism?
Maybe i missed something here? where are they made? because your description of the optical traits directly match my experiences with my 7 Artizans F3.5 -1.2 , MK1 version, Ok the electronic coupling stuff sounds OK i guess but nothing that is essential, @ $640 its a big ask, may as well get the well sub £100 ( do the maths) 7 Artz equivalent.
No, absolutely not. A manual lens with lack of sharpness for over 600? NOPE. If they gave us the character of the color-ultrons (for example) with the right amount of sharpness from modern lenses, the price would be justified. As is, unfortunately, no effin way.
7artisans 35mm F/1.2 is a far better price for the character aspect.
If they can make a 28f1.4 I'd buy it so fast. It would fill the need for low light on the XF27. I loved my old Voightlander 50f1.1 even though it was a joke for LOCA.
Yikes. Beyond infinity is a deal breaker for me. My X-70 does that, and it drives me crazy. How hard is it to calibrate? They don't have a little tool to dial it in?
Amazing video. One question though, the 35 f1.4 for fuji is hailed as having the best character and feel to it, so how would it compare to this lens? I'm thinking about making the switch, but I'd love to know how the feel and look compares.
Thank you, Ben! Great review. :-)
Your right about the lens going beyond infinity. I have to remember to line it up with the infinity mark before I shoot. ;-)
Some of samples really impressed me. How it compares TTAritsan 35mm f1.4?Which is shaper at wide open?
That thing where it zooms in when you focus can be turned off in camera.
Which mist filter are you using when you record yourself talking to the camera?
you never shared any photos that would demonstrate the character a skilled photographer would be able to elicit from this lens. maybe you just had the camera for a short period of time, but i would have liked to see photos in a variety of different lighting conditions to be able to asses the supposed character of this lens
What’s the name of white lens ?
I am actually looking at the 75mm 1.5 Nokton but for the Leica mount. I have the Fuji XP2 and have heard a lot of good things about the 75mm. Have you tried it? Do you think they will make it for the Fuji X mount?
Great review! it's so annoying when infinity is not infinity
I dont understand if the lens goes beyond infinity focus then isnt that a major flaw in the camera that would be a deal breaker??
though seeing how you set the lens to 5.6 - wouldnt you set it as a zone focus where infinity would be on one end of the focus zone, and you get a few more "zone" that way? sorry if the 2nd question does not make as much sense.
Keep the videos comin! Per usual another great and informative video
I know this video is focusing on the Nokton but I’m curious now about 7artisans if the photoelectric has some of the same features as this lens like you showed with the focusing and etc.
They do not. You can get those manually though.
Thumbs up for the Buzz Lightyear reference.
Great review !
Can anyone tell me what strap this is ? It look very good !
benjhais.ch/clever 🙌🏼
Hi Ben. Just got this lens based on your review. Loving the lens. Quick question maybe you might know but when I put the lens on, the reading on the aperture turns to t stops and reads 1.3t for when on the lens it says 1.2. Is this normal?
Hmmm I'm not sure, that might be an internal setting?
Thanks for the review!
Cool video. Thanks a lot.
Very nice jeans jacket. Where did you get from?
Haha! Pretty sure it’s just a shirt from Zara
Thanks so much for the super review 👌🏼
Maybe something like 20mm would definitely be nice for the future.
I would love to see a comparion between this lens and the Voitglander Ultron 35mm f/2. When I read the respective review,s, I have the feeling that the only advantage of the Nokton is the electronic connection.
and the extra 1.35 stops of light? the Ultron is sharper too, but maybe not at f/2
@@benjhaisch Matt Osborne tested the Ultron and considered it to be sharp wide open. He bought the lens.
Looks so much like you!!
A lens with a lot of ‘character’ is a whole another animal when trying to master it. A lot more brought to the table to use, and also a lot more to keep in mind and deal with. Good or bad, any lens is capable of some serious real deal photos. Just depends on how one uses it and if they understand/know how to work it’s strengths. (Not directed at the host!). Great video! I’d like to ask your opinion…what’s the better option, xpro 3 or the XE4 you’re using? Also, what brown leather strap is that? Thanks in advance!
unless you REALLY want or need the ovf, the xe4 will suffice
Hi Benji, you have made quiet a detial review on the lens at the same time you showed the distance marked from the camera which I am not aware of. I was planning to get the X-pro3 or X-E4, wondering are you going to make a video on X-E4 after months of user experience? Btw, if you have any M mount lens to adapt on this camera does it shows infinity focusing issue? Thanks and have a nice weekend.
the infinity focusing issue mainly stems from the adapter, I'd assume. I bet if I had bought the actual Fujifilm to M adapter it wouldn't be an issue. I've made plenty of other X-E4 videos too, but I could make a follow up if that'd be helpful?
@@benjhaisch Following up your video, and thanks for your reply have a nice weekend.
This is a really helpful review. I have the (new) 23mm f 1.2 version of this lens. Something I noticed is when I shoot, the camera displays "t-stop" instead of "f-stop." In other words, I have the lens set to f 1.2, but the digital display shows it as, "t 1.3" When I import into Lightroom the file shows the correct f-stop I shot. As I understand it, t-stops are used in cinema, but not sure why it's showing when composing a still shot. Anyone experience the same thing with this lens?
Didnt knew that 23 1.2 was released.
@@clopotari147 It was a surprise to me when I saw it, but picked up on B&H.
If you are after a lens that is not super sharp, flares badly and has “character” you might as well go for any of the cheap Chinese brands like 7artisans, TTartisans, Meike, or Laowa.
Hi Ben, do you have the infinity focus issue on the zeiss and 7 ARTISANS?
it s not an issue , it s a design feature because the elements inside contract/expand with variations in temperature so the infinity on the lens changes slightly
It would be cool to see a comparison between this and the Fuji 35mm 1.4, used in manual. I love the vintage Voigtlander M mount lenses on Fuji but on a practical level I'd wonder about which way to go. Voigtlander - vintage M or modern, or Fuji. Obviously there's going to some sort of scale from "character" all the way to "accuracy." It would be cool to see just to know.
The best part about this Voigtlander lens IMO is the manual focus experience that that just so happens to be about the worst part of the original 35/1.4 on fujifilm with their focus by wire nonsense :/
@@benjhaisch so this lens stops where the manual focus doesn’t keep going? That’s what I’m looking for.
HOPE they make a wide angle
Question unrelated to the lens…. Where can I pick up a strap like you have on your xe4? And, have you done a review of the xe4? I am isolating between the xe4 and 100v.
Well you sure are in luck my friend. I’ll list the videos in order 😂
X-E4: ruclips.net/video/xn8qnpn0RE4/видео.html
X-E4 vs X100V: ruclips.net/video/_3i_iwYmuco/видео.html
Camera straps: ruclips.net/video/cqflAZZ8_w0/видео.html
@@benjhaisch This was a great review and just what I needed to make up my mind. I am moving from an Olympus system. Drinking the Fuji cool aide as every think I am heard is positive. Hopefully it will help renew my interest in photography. I just pulled the trigger on the XE4 with a 23mm F2 lens. Thanks for your help.
Need a voigt 15mm
Oz looks cool as
What the camera strap did you use?
awesome strap!
I hate the sharpness. Great Voigtlander that goes against the trend. I sold my 35 1.4 for it.
XF35mm is sharper, but Nokton is dreamier with pretty flares and sunstars even at f/1.4
Lens flare… it’s not a bug, it’s a feature!
Great lens to make your fantasies more wide
I've been waiting for a review on this lens. This looks like a great mf alternative to the fuji lenses.
I don't get why they didn't go with the 40mm focal length that there is none in the fx system and they are known for their 40mm lenses.I like voigtlander and i feel like this lens fits their legacy,but people do want more than just a lens with character to be persuaded outside of fujica lenses.Sad but true.
Personally, I wish they would have come out with 2-4 lenses on launch instead of just one, but I understand trying to feel out the market.
What strap is that?
Thanks for the review… but a lot of flaws for “manual focus perfection”
I guess it depends on how you're interpreting that particular phrase ;)
comparing it to a Chinese cheap lens is like comparing apples and oranges, the real match is against xf 35 1.4 for character
Oslo killin me with the nostril tongue 😎😂
Right???? 😂
"Character" is the new "flawed" an elegant way to described a $650 sub-par glass 🤔
You're absolutely right, but some people love those flaws and are happy to pay a lot more than that on some other lenses to have the 'flaws'
You can get pretty great china lenses for like 80 Bucks, like the Meike 35mm f1.7, that lens also has *character* only for one tenth of the price....
Sure, but the experience of adapting and actually using it just isn’t as good especially when you include size
People pay hundreds for shoes and pants that look dirty, used and ripped, but are actually new and made to look that way. 🤷🏻♂️
Correcting optical flaws effects background rendition.
What is one of the best point and shoot cameras out right now below or around $1500? Looking for a gift for my fiancee! Please recommend me something.
Digital or film?
Zoom or prime?
@@benjhaisch Im not sure what that means, shes the photographer
@@benjhaisch She takes picture of nature, pictures like of buildings etc, she wanted a good point & shoot camera that uploads easily to phone / computer
@@Deluhsional I think she could be very happy with the Fuji X100V. Great looking images straight out of camera, beautifully designed, a sharp 35mm lens, super compact and easy to carry around. But there are lots of good options and - like anything else - it always depends on your needs.
The Angry Photographer said it's pretty much unusable wide open. So which is it? 🤔
Why oh why can’t 3rd party manufacturers have the aperture readings read in the same direction as the manufacturers lenses do?
So annoying!
Crop factor is applicable to the focal length but not aperture value.
Correct in the physical specs and light gathering, but in apparent terms, a larger sensor will have a more shallow depth of field at each equivalent perspective than a cropped sensor.
“Intentionally soft”. That’s ridiculous. I am owner of many VG lenses for my M246, but saying they purposely made a lens soft is nonsense. It’s just a bad lens.
Hmm, fair point. Perhaps all of those knock off Chinese manufacturers should market their products that way too. Their product isn't just crap... it's intentionally crap! You should buy it!
Sure thing pal
Actually that's not necessarily true. Let me explain by giving you an example. A representative of legendary Cooke cinema lens company said that because people are looking for the old Cooke Speed Panchro lenses from the 30s and 40s, because they want the so called "Cooke look", which means the lens is sharp only in the middle and it quickly falls off as you move towards the corners. So the company decided to produce a modern copy of these old lenses, with the same optical formula, for the people who want that look. He even said they got calls from DPs that were complaining the lens is too soft, because they didn't understand what were they buying/renting. Even some of the older Leica lenses have the same characteristics. Wide open they're soft in the corners and just barely sharp in the middle with a ghostly look, particularly while filming close. I don't know about the Voightalnder lens, if that was on purpose or not, I'm just saying it's possible, considering they're a company with centuries long legacy.
Totally wrong. Your just salty that you cannot afford this beauty ❤ I own it and I absolutely love it. Voigtländer has been around for many many years and I guarantee you that they would never put out a bad lens. The company is sort of legend in both film and digital nowadays. Loved the video btw
@edhblvd
To bad with the infinity point... Very disappointing...
Cool video but Oslo is such a sick fucking name
To me this has similar characteristics to Chinese lenses using vintage designs that cost less than half. It's nice to have electronic connections - and that's definitely worth extra - but then why would it not have an automatic diaphragm like a Pentax lens from 1978? And for that extra money it definitely should stop at infinity. In my own opinion this lens is overpriced and trading on its reputation given what ttartisan and 7artisan are putting out. Appreciate the review though.
Can’t buy it anywhere in UK. Even second hand it’s non existent.
Who says Fuji lenses are clinical?
There is no voightlander - there is Cosina - wellknown third party company