As expected by many, a video from Hisarlik, or 'Troy' as the tourist signposts call it. This one is about aspects of the character of Achilles. www.LloydianAspects.co.uk
@elgostine I thought Brad Pitt was well cast. He looked the part. He played the part as a wilful, arrogant, overgrown baby, which is what he is in Homer. A bit over-muscled perhaps.
The funny thing about it is that I at first didn't like the casting because I thought Brad Pitt was much too good-looking to be portraying an ancient battle-hardened Greek soldier. However, Achilles himself is described as being very handsome, even feminine, so I guess it fits.
Agree Brad pitt Achilles is best achilles ...the fight with Hector was well composed his moments were smooth graceful perfect snake like with his blade
"I'mma tell you what... I likes ya, and I wants ya. Now we can do this the easy way or the hard way. The choice is yours." -Fleece Johnson, aka The Booty Warrior
It makes sense, because according to the original material, if you can call him that, he was probably only in his mid-twenties, and literally a teenager when he actually set out for Troy
@Keasri There are nine Troys, each atop the last. The walls in this video are the right age and style for Homer's Troy, and match his descriptions in a few detailed ways, but you are right in that there is no decisive proof.
@cilibinarii They had all colours of hair, and though shorter than people today, were normal height for their day. The most common hair colour in Homer is Xanthos - the colour of honey.
This hair colour is very much characteristic and well documented as the hair colour distinguishing the Thracians from the tribes on the south of the Thracian settlements.
+Gav Tatu Actually i think its good that he is not on TV. By beeing on youtube and producing his own videos in the length he wants them to be and were he can decide what he wants to talk about, he is part of the media revolution were people start actively to gather information rather than just sitting infront of the TV and passively consuming information.
Peter Hall Well good sir I'm glad you asked! You see, television is a telecommunication medium used for transmitting sound with moving images in monochrome (black-and-white), or in color, and in two or three dimensions!
I only found your channel today and I must say your videos and presenting style have me hooked, this is about my 20th vid in a row. I'm afraid to check how many uploads you have incase my binge watching is brought to an abrupt halt due to running out but hey, I'll just watch them twice. :-)
Alex Rowlinson Oooh, I think I could give a nod to Ajax the Greater as well ;) I don't remember him as well; and there are 2 Ajaxes (right?) so it's a bit harder to keep track of them lol.
Well spotted. It is a much-faded 1942 green webbing pack, worn as a shoulder bag with a long strap. In its twilight years, I fear, and now not easy to replace.
+The Batman It would have made more sense in the film too if they were lovers in that also. Achilles reaction to his "cousin's," death seemed far too extreme for a warrior who has probably seen many close friends die in battle. It would have been a lot more plausible had they kept them lover's, imho. Lol, I'm pretty sure I just replied to you on a different thread. :-P
Lindy...I'm currently reading the Iliad for the first time.(I was reading Ovid's Metamorphoses and had to see it through first before I started another work) A great point made about a lack of "duty" for Achilles and as most of my Professors have pointed out he was simply in it for Kleos("Clay-os" Greek term for Glory) The Greek idea of Kleos imposed this idea of "he who has the most booty or treasure wins" Thats why Briseis is vital to the story. Old Agamemnon was taking away his Kleos.
@tewalker13 True, although this oath is not mentioned in the Iliad either. It would have been interesting if one of the oath-takers had not fought so hard. The Iliad stresses that all the heroes are out for glory and booty.
@733835 'Troy' has good elements and bad elements. They got a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong. Hisarlik has 9 distinct occupation levels, and the walls I stand next to in this video are the prime candidate for the walls of Homer's Troy (level VII).
Honestly the Illiad would make an amazing movie. Full god action, full poetic dialogue with narrator, not everything of course, some of it is told through actual cinematic action, but narration of the ships and men and captains and kings that fight for the Akhains, while a camera pans acrossthe sky overlooking them as they are called out. Having the gods portrayed as they actually are in the books. It'd be great.
With respect to the first point, the Achaeans were members of independent city states. Menelaus, for example, was king of Sparta. His brother, Agamemnon, was king of Mycenae. Achilles was the only surviving son of Peleus, king of the Myrmidons, whose city state was Phthia. As Peleus himself did not go to the Trojan War (I believe), Achilles was the ranking Phthian at Troy, and hence owed a duty to no other city states, nor their kings. I suspect, however, his 250 Myrmidons, however, would have owed a duty to him. So, it is not that the concept of fighting for duty would have been alien to the ancient Greeks, but rather that the Achaeans formed only an informal confederation.
All the Greek heroes were like that, the days long fight between Ajax and Odysseus proves this, each was more interested in getting Achilles' armour than actually fighting the war.
@EsraYmssik1 Briseis in the film combines many characters. She is the slave girl whom Agamemnon takes from Achilles (Briseis). She is also the priestess of Apollo and daughter of Priam (Kassandra). She is the killer of Agamemnon (Klytaimnestra). She is the bed-mate of Achilles (Diomede). She is Priam’s young and beautiful virgin daughter (Polyxena). The Briseis of legend did not come from Troy at all, but was captured on the way there. "Rescue" does not equate to "capture".
Correct me if I’m wrong but I remember hearing about how before the Trojan war, there was a big dispute between all the kings of the Acheans/ suitors of Helen, on who would get to marry Helen. Thus, Odysseus in order to settle the dispute devised a plan/contest/drawing thing and made every suitor/king swear an oath that they would honor the winner of the contest and would fight against anyone who would try and steal away the winner’s wife- Helen. I believe Achilles and his men were part of that oath and I remember hearing also that Achilles even tried to hide from it with Patrolces on an island before the Acheans set sail for Troja but Odysseus reminded him of the oath and convinced him to fight with the Acheans. Thus Achilles and many of the men, especially the former suitors of Helen, had a moral duty to fight against Paris/alexandros.
Er...from memory. they totally do that. They say "Yo Achilles, we're getting smashed by Hector, came and help." He says "Pffft. Lol noob no. Duty? Fame? What's the point? I'm just going to die here, for what? Glory? Who cares. I'd rather go live on a farm and die of old age." So...I'll double check, but duty, they most definitely appeal to, to help his fellow Acheans and he says "Ah, I've already done heaps." And you might recall, it's duty to his friend that makes him go all beserker and smash everything.
Krzysztof Piasek I've never seen a movie adaptation, but what the original commenter said is true to the book. At least Fagles translation, which is next to me on the bookshelf.
I'm watching a Yale lecture series on ancient greek (its on youtube) and the lecturer does talk about Achilles not having to fight. He talks about the fact that greeks weren't a monarchical society like almost every other society at the time, its more that they were a society ruled by arisotcratic nobles, among which there was a basilaes/basilaos (cant remember the spelling off the top of my head) who was generally in charge and for which king or chief is the closest translation. In an extreme situation like the Trojan war, Agamemnon might have been selected as the general of the collective army, but Achilles and any of his peers are not beholden to him in the same way that nobles would be beholden to a king in medieval Europe.
You omitted what finally DID get Achilles to fight... the slaying of his "companion", Patroclus. The movie "Troy" portrayed Patroclus as just Achilles' cousin, whereas in The Iliad, it's pretty clear that they're lovers. Achilles threw a small fit at Agamemnon for taking Bryseis (a captured slave girl) from him, but not nearly the fit he threw at Hector for killing his man...
+ElJulioso Lindy does touch on this in one of his more recent videos. Also regarding "they're lovers" I think it's often blown out of proportion. First and foremost they were friends. Friendship and the occasional bit of bumming was pretty common in the olden days of Greece.
@skolvold In the ancient world the Macedonians were the first to use massive pike blocks in open battle. Homer writes of boarding pikes used on ships. They were not siege weapons. Defenders preferred to use missiles.
Nearly ten years later I stumbled across this one Lindy but i have been a subscriber to you for a long time now. So bit mystified why RUclips put it in my "suggestions" today? I think you're absolutely spot on with this observation but if they were to remake Achilles in our present cultural climate ... I'll end that as you ended your thought provoking video ....
Yup. In the age of heroes, they fought for personal glory. Duelist culture (personal violence) is exactly just that- personal glory. Sense of duty was developed as warfare (collective violence) thrived, as a consequence of sense of entitlement and belonging that comes with settling. That is why we (even to this day) think of backstabbing as a shameful tactic. That view was developed in the age of heroes because of duels. But as warfare began to thrive, ppl started to lean towards "all is fair in love n war" mentality. But of course at the time of trojan war, we are really looking at the late (if not the end) age of heroes. In the course of human history it goes like this; Fight for survival (hunter/gatherer )-> fight for personal glory (transitional period from H/G to settler status) -> fight for collective glory (well into settling culture).
The Iliad does mention that Hector and the Trojans were very much bound by duty, however. Consider, for example, the case where Andromache is asking Hector to not go back to the battle and stay and oversee the repairing of a wall or something, but he rejects her suggestion on the grounds of duty.
It's pretty clear that "Troy" wasn't meant to be an exact retelling of the Iliad (and related tales), but rather to show the supposed "historical event" on which it was based. Thus, mixing-and-matching bits from the original works just fine.
I would say it wasn't meant to be that either. It was meant, in my opinion, just to be an entertaining movie. In that, it succeeded. If it was intended to show the supposed historical event, the Greek Armour would have been Mycenean Greek armour rather than a version of Classical Greek armour. s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/87/59/c5/8759c5baba0f377ebb763b8986a85843.jpg
The Batman Using such armor would have been expensive and look silly to modern audiences. So, sure, it was altered somewhat in hopes of being successful, but - clearly - the ultimate inspiration was to take the Trojan War as an historical event rather than a mythological one. If they had wanted it to be mythical they'd have included the gods while if they wanted just a Hollywood block-buster they'd have included more classic "action movie" bits. Instead, we got the Trojan War presented as if a real event (if with anachronistic bits like Iron Age armor and ships) that inspired later stories.
Ranillon Either way, it was a good film. And I think one of the main reasons for avoiding the actual Mycenean armour was that it would cover up the faces of the stars a lot more, the same reason they never use real Corinthian Helmets in movies. Well, that and nobody involved in the film likely knew it wasn't the right armour historically speaking. The main thing is, it didn't spoil the enjoyment of the movie.
Regarding your point on Briseis: When Odysseus, Ajax, and Phoenix visit Achilles to negotiate her return in book 9, Achilles refers to Briseis as his wife or his bride. He professes to have loved her as much as any man loves his wife, at one point using Menelaus and Helen to complain about the injustice of his 'wife' being taken from him. This romanticized, domestic view of their relationship contrasts with book 19, in which Briseis herself speaks. As she laments Patroclus' death, she wonders what will happen to her without his intercession on her behalf, saying that Patroclus promised her he would get Achilles to make her his legal wife instead of his slave. So there is definitely precedence for Achilles rushing in to save her: he was rushing after his bride.
Well, the Trojan War Cycle (as with all classical myths) isn't really compatible with modern morality. The Iliad is filled with pretty much all terrible people who would all be villains in modern popular media. IMO, Hector is the most sympathetic character and he still has his jerk moments (not to mention epic cowardness in his duel against Achilles) I'm not even sure if the people at the time were supposed to look up to the heroes in the story. I read a theory once that the story was a deconstruction of heroic ideals. Achilles is supposed to be the hero of the story, but he spends nearly the whole time sulking in his tent and only comes out for revenge when his lover is killed. Hector is valiantly defending his home, but runs away from Achilles in their fight. Many heroes are shown to be jokes (Ajax) or monsterou people (Neoptolemus). The way the Acheans finally win the war isn't through honourable battle, but through 'cowardly' subterfuge. Plus, do any of the heroes come out of the war and live happily very after? Odysseus spends decades lost and Agamemnon is murdered (though I don't remember what happens to Helen and Menolaus).
SidtheKid Not my man Diomedes! He was heroic and as selfless as a Greek Hero could be, he knew his limits, respected the Gods (which is a surprisingly uncommon trait among his peers), and befriended his enemies when he had the chance.
@pugilistofpower Homer gives no hint of any homosexual passion between the two men, and he makes it clear that they both slept with women in their huts. This idea was added by later writers.
@winterlord21 It's a movie about a legend, so there is a lot of licence, but I suppose what struck me was the lack of faithfulness to the character of Achilles. Yes, if I make a film about Superman, I might make him German, and do away with the silly red cape, but then is this any longer a film about Superman?
As I understand it, Achilles had no duty to fight because he has not taken an oath. He was younger than the other commanders, so he had not courted Helen back in the day, and therefore he had not taken the oath that bound her former suitors (most of the other commanders among the Achaeans) to help Menelaus take her back.
v1e1r1g1e1 Yes, in the Illiad, idiot. Achilles makes a whole speech about how if a whole war could start because Menelaus was parted from his wife, how much worse would it be if Achilles and Briseis were parted. "Why has he gathered and led here his host, this son of Atreus? Was it not for Helen's sake? Do they then alone of mortal men love their wives, these sons of Atreus? No, for he who is a true man loves his own and cherishes her, as I too loved Briseis with all my heart." (Homer, Iliad 9.340) You should probably read it before correcting someone. None of the words for lover are ever used for Patroclus or Achilles in the text, however.
Wait, I thought tht one of the reasons Achilles chooses not to fight was because Agamemnon Took a woman Achilles had captured (I believe from the Temple of Apollo).
you are right. the greeks raided several other smaller cities and villages to feed their army. when they divided the spoils agamemnon took a priestess of apollo and achlles some other woman. apollo got angry and demanded his servant be released, and achilles demands he obey. agamemnon then declares that if apollo is to have his slave, then he will get achilless'. he gets his way as head general. achilles in responce started something like a "strike". he only came out to fight when patroclus died out of grieg and anger.
Various theories, one being that it is to support straight-sided wooden structures above. I do wonder, though - it would be possible to do so without carrying the straight line all the way to the ground. Perhaps it is just that they liked the look.
As I understand it, Patroclus was Achilles's cousin, companion and lover. When he was killed in combat with Hector, Troy's best soldier and the King of Troy's son and prince, Achilles greatly grieved for him and actively sought combat with Hector. Achilles killed him and dragged his dead body around the city of Troy and refused to give up the body, until Troy's king Priam went to his camp and got his body back after begging Achilles. Unfortunately, not mentioned in Brad Pitt's movie.
Absolutely correct. Achilles and his father owed no allegiance to Agamamnon (notwithstanding the film). Neither he nor his father had been among the suitors of Helen, who swore to help her husband. He had to be recruited. He wanted fame.
He was dressed as a woman and in disguise on Skyros. There he called himself Phyrra, after his red hair. This is where his son got his name Phyrros from. He was found out and was basically forced to come, even though his mother Thetis forces him not too, which is why he was in disguise in the first place
People forget that what we see now as bare stone was once plastered and painted, plus there would have been battlements on the top. Climbing the walls of troy would not have been easy. Even European castles were plastered and whitewashed when they were built/maintained (hence the white tower). A very strong concept in the bronze age was the idea that immortality in part came from being remembered. Kings and Pharohs built monuments to themselves in part so they would not be forgotten, and destroying someones statues or chiseling out their name was seen as a method of reducing them to a nobody in the afterlife. Archilles wasn't a client king of Agamemnon and instead was more of a mercenary warband leader. While the loot/women(and men) taken in battle would have been a reward for fighting in this life Archilles would have wanted sufficient fame so that long after his death people would still be speaking his name, stopping him from becoming just another nameless ghost in Hades. The war against Troy while not a war Archilles had to fight was simply too great an opportunity for fame and glory for a man like Archilles to pass by. In some respects Archilles represented a archaic throwback to an age of adventurer warriors in an age of Kings. Archilles with his pride and his rage threatened the preordained fate of Troy and at times the Greek army. In some respects that is why his meeting with Priam, who had come to beg for the body of Hector, strikes such a cord, for the arrogant rage-filled warrior is shamed by a old man who loved his son. In that moment Archilles realises that - like Hector - he was destined to fall in battle and that he would meet Hector and all the men he had slain in the afterlife, so his disrespect of Hector's body was wrong.
1) valid points about Achilles in the movie 'Troy', but if you wanna be accurate about it, the biggest problem is Agamemnon dying in Troy thus negating all of the oresteia trilogy. 2) The Iliad is a product of mythological oral tradition attributed to a person (Homer) who most possibly, never existed and is also fictional. Therefore the Hollywood variation of a myth, cannot exactly be scrutinized under Historical terms.
The Iliad is a myth about events that might have occured, but that is told in the eyes of people living 1 or 2 centuries later. Achilles, if he existed, would have been a noble who fought under a king for his own sake, but the fleet, the weapons and the armor are those of classical greek. If Achilles existed, he would have more probably worn an armour like those found at Dendra
I'd say not. If I pay a mercenary to fight and he does not fight, then I think I can reasonably refer to his duty to fight, since he accepted my money. Achilles was an independent man who was there for the glory of it all, and of course the looting.
well when you climing up a wall like that the defenders can shoot arrows down at you and push heavy stones or whatever down on you. besides that ususally cities had more then one wall the second wall is usually taller then the first so as you climb up to the top of one not only do you have to deal with the defenders on top of that wall but also archers on the next wall before you can take the city. ie every city had muiltable layers of defense protecting them.
I read from somewhere that at the site of turkey troy there were many cities built one on top of another throughout ages. That wall might not belong to troy, even it was actually the site of troy.
According to Julian Jaynes, individuals in Bronze Age societies simply did not have self-consciousness in the way that later cultures did. The earliest books of the Old Testament are similar to the Iliad in this way. Whenever someone tries to account for their motivations, they always posit some external force. The idea that you can motivate yourself to do something is from later times. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)
@lindybeige I heard that Odysseus pretended to be insane to resist the draft, but the king didn't fall for it. The king then recruited Odysseus to find Achilles (who his mother changed into a woman as a disguise and hid him in a brothel). Odysseus dressed up as a peddler giving an assortment of goods to the prostitutes. When Achilles reached for the sword (among the goods), Odysseus knew who he really was. Maybe this was a different version? Or a different work altogether and I forgot the names?
Fair point about Wolfgang Petetsen's "Troy". But how about BBC's series "Troy: Fall of a City" and their take on Achilles, if not Illiad, as a whole? :)).
First line of the Iliad, "Sing, Hera, of the wrath of Achilles." The lad threw a major mardy (or got a massive cob on, depending on your preference) and jeopardised the whole war over Briseis. Having Brad, sorry ACHILLES running after Briseis was possibly the least unbelievable part of the film for me.
My issue with Achillies is... why would a guy who supposedly only had a single weak spot on his entire body... not armour that one weak spot? If you get killed by being shot in the foot, wear armoured boots. Was he not aware that he could be wounded there?
no one else knew about it, from what I understood the Goddess Athena told the prince paris where to shoot him. To armor his heel would be quite obvious he has a week spot. At that time to wear armor in an unusual place it to draw attention to it.
Miguel Santos Curious. So what happened in the Iliad? Was he meant to be arrow proof etc but then mysteriously wasn't against Paris...? Or was he just stated to be a generic hero and not actually proof to all harm?
DGneoseeker1 The Iliad is a small event in the 10 year war. Achilles doesn't die in the Iliad. The Iliad ends with these words "And such were the funeral rites of Hector, tamer of horses." Achilles is still alive and celebrating. Achilles, if I remember well, is not arrow proof in the original (Homer), only in later pastiches (Classic Greek and Roman). He can't even fight because he lost is armor. And that's very important to the plot of the Iliad.
I dont know if you will see this, but daaamn you are really entertaining you need to get a TV Show or something like this you are fucking awesome Sorry for the grammar 😅 English isn't my main lenguage 😐 But I will say something in my lenguage now! You need to translate it i guess.. Du bist wirklich ziemlich unterhaltsam und das ist verdammt selten heutzutage die meisten Personen im TV sind nur Idioten die stumpf ablesen was ihnen gegeben wird aber du sagst einfach was du sagen willst und du tust es unterhaltsam und so dass man dabei etwas lernt! Es ist wirklich unglaublich wie sehr du mich an den Bildschirm fesselst! :D Ich wünsche dir wirklich viel Erfolg mit deiner Karriere !
the sloping walls thing fits with an idea that could be way off, but if you make a wall look impossible to climb an attacker (in the event of actually needing to scale them) would take the extra time to make ladders, towers, or a breach. if you make them look scale-able then a commander, under time constraints that prevents starving an enemy out, may decide that they don't need such equipment- a win for the defenders almost, because a man climbing a wall is easier to kill than a man in a tower.
@skolvold One of the problems about poking downwards with a spear is that the other guy can grab it (lucky grab). There are numerous other problems with them, such as getting shot while you expose yourself to poke downwards, which is why (for once Hollywood has gotten this right, I have yet to see spear armed defenders poking over walls) they were never used in that manner. I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I thought I'd take a jab at it anyhow. A questions a question :P. Good luck with more.
Those walls were buried in Homer's time, yet he was able to describe them as sloped. Definitive proof that the Trojan war was a real event and a cultural memory from the Bronze Age.
The film Troy had a bronze sword slice through a solid gold statue like a fanboy's katana through a tank made of butter. Now admittedly I don't have a bronze sword or a solid gold statue to test that, but I'm iffy on just how easy that is to pull off..
That area of the eastern med is also known for its inconvenient seismic events, and I'd wager that a sloped wall isn't generally as badly damaged by earthquakes a vertical one.
@elgostine I thought Brad Pitt was well cast. He looked the part. He played the part as a wilful, arrogant, overgrown baby, which is what he is in Homer. A bit over-muscled perhaps.
The funny thing about it is that I at first didn't like the casting because I thought Brad Pitt was much too good-looking to be portraying an ancient battle-hardened Greek soldier. However, Achilles himself is described as being very handsome, even feminine, so I guess it fits.
@@subrsubrr334 I thought it was great casting. It was totally believable that he was a godlike fighter who thought very highly of himself.
Internet looks disturbing when you find that something you told 9 years ago can be commented now
Agree Brad pitt Achilles is best achilles ...the fight with Hector was well composed his moments were smooth graceful perfect snake like with his blade
@@lordpowell3788 Ah, that was one of the most riveting fight scenes I ever saw in the cinema.
could your explorers outfit look more stereotypically English if you tried?
Adam Case hahaha broo😂😂😂😂
Adam Case 😂
Pith helmet?
Adam Case a kettle hat
Plus fours and a Biggles scarf and a pipe
So THAT'S why they call it booty.
"A man has no duty but to seek booty" - Achilles
"I'mma tell you what... I likes ya, and I wants ya. Now we can do this the easy way or the hard way. The choice is yours." -Fleece Johnson, aka The Booty Warrior
@@bernardi5919 and it was always yes
@Polymarkos Actually I thought his casting was fine. A big blond pretty petulant boy. That's Achilles.
Hi
@@ADrunkCrayfish Hiya
It makes sense, because according to the original material, if you can call him that, he was probably only in his mid-twenties, and literally a teenager when he actually set out for Troy
Not sure why this was recommended, but I'm here for it.
@Keasri There are nine Troys, each atop the last. The walls in this video are the right age and style for Homer's Troy, and match his descriptions in a few detailed ways, but you are right in that there is no decisive proof.
@cilibinarii They had all colours of hair, and though shorter than people today, were normal height for their day. The most common hair colour in Homer is Xanthos - the colour of honey.
This hair colour is very much characteristic and well documented as the hair colour distinguishing the Thracians from the tribes on the south of the Thracian settlements.
This dudes taught me so much. All at the low cost of a free ad blocker.
Love you, man. Thank you!
mate..... you need to get on tv ! seriously !
+Gav Tatu Hear hear!
+Gav Tatu I think he'll get more attention here.
+Gav Tatu
Actually i think its good that he is not on TV.
By beeing on youtube and producing his own videos in the length he wants them to be and were he can decide what he wants to talk about, he is part of the media revolution were people start actively to gather information rather than just sitting infront of the TV and passively consuming information.
+Gav Tatu What's tv?
Peter Hall Well good sir I'm glad you asked! You see, television is a telecommunication medium used for transmitting sound with moving images in monochrome (black-and-white), or in color, and in two or three dimensions!
I only found your channel today and I must say your videos and presenting style have me hooked, this is about my 20th vid in a row. I'm afraid to check how many uploads you have incase my binge watching is brought to an abrupt halt due to running out but hey, I'll just watch them twice. :-)
Right? Seeing when this comment was posted I gather that I got hooked at the exact same time.
way tooooooo many uploads and i like it. im just clicking every video on the sidebar and it never stops
I think you meant "BEIGEwatch" his movies.
Anyone a fan of Diomedes? Seems like all you ever hear about is Achilles, and Hector; I like Hector for sure, but anyone love Diomedes too?
Diomedes is by far my favorite hero in the epics.
Nivokius Awesome; same!
Diomedes is the best. Major enough to have an aristeia, minor enough not to have a terrible, fatal flaw.
Andrew Penman Its all about Ajax the Greater!
Alex Rowlinson Oooh, I think I could give a nod to Ajax the Greater as well ;)
I don't remember him as well; and there are 2 Ajaxes (right?) so it's a bit harder to keep track of them lol.
I had so many problems with that movie, AND NOW I HAVE EVEN MORE!
Thank you
Double meaning to "booty"
That final No is one of the best endings I have ever seen
9 years later RUclips has brought me here. I have nothing better to do, thanks COVID!
same
Same but probably related to the fact I am reading a rendition of the Trojan War for a course assignment right now
Aye the old one are real classics
I’ve been watching this channel for years and it’s great. Every video is a Masterpiece, 9/10 out of 10 every time.
Well spotted. It is a much-faded 1942 green webbing pack, worn as a shoulder bag with a long strap. In its twilight years, I fear, and now not easy to replace.
9 years later, what a ride! So much information I received by watching this channel. Thanks LB!
None of them had any sort of feudal obligation.
Diomedes and the greater Aias were the real heroes of the story
sugarnads YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS Diomedes and Greater Ajax!
(okay I'm good now)
Andrew Penman lol good
They were all essentially kings.
Succinct British ending. I like it! “Let’s see, how should I put this?” Perfect summary.
At no point do they offer back his captured concubine from Agamemnon either.
Actually, Briseis is given back to him shortly after he rejoins the right.
they offer her back like twice
They also rewrote Patroklos into being his cousin whereas he was Achillies' lover.
+The Batman It would have made more sense in the film too if they were lovers in that also. Achilles reaction to his "cousin's," death seemed far too extreme for a warrior who has probably seen many close friends die in battle. It would have been a lot more plausible had they kept them lover's, imho. Lol, I'm pretty sure I just replied to you on a different thread. :-P
Braveheart Heh, maybe you did, and that is an excellent analysis of Achilles' reaction to Patroklos' death.
We're yet to see a movie made by Lloyd. And it seems it would be overdetailed, painfully realistic with very unlikeable characters ;).
Bexebeche
is a graphic novel good enough?
I would watch such a movie
And a ridiculous number of cutaway shots for his digressions
Lindy...I'm currently reading the Iliad for the first time.(I was reading Ovid's Metamorphoses and had to see it through first before I started another work) A great point made about a lack of "duty" for Achilles and as most of my Professors have pointed out he was simply in it for Kleos("Clay-os" Greek term for Glory) The Greek idea of Kleos imposed this idea of "he who has the most booty or treasure wins" Thats why Briseis is vital to the story. Old Agamemnon was taking away his Kleos.
@tewalker13 True, although this oath is not mentioned in the Iliad either. It would have been interesting if one of the oath-takers had not fought so hard. The Iliad stresses that all the heroes are out for glory and booty.
@GhostXDog True, although I'd say that far bigger a no-no was killing Menelaos.
@733835 'Troy' has good elements and bad elements. They got a lot of things right and a lot of things wrong. Hisarlik has 9 distinct occupation levels, and the walls I stand next to in this video are the prime candidate for the walls of Homer's Troy (level VII).
Honestly the Illiad would make an amazing movie. Full god action, full poetic dialogue with narrator, not everything of course, some of it is told through actual cinematic action, but narration of the ships and men and captains and kings that fight for the Akhains, while a camera pans acrossthe sky overlooking them as they are called out. Having the gods portrayed as they actually are in the books. It'd be great.
And Bronze swords
With respect to the first point, the Achaeans were members of independent city states. Menelaus, for example, was king of Sparta. His brother, Agamemnon, was king of Mycenae. Achilles was the only surviving son of Peleus, king of the Myrmidons, whose city state was Phthia. As Peleus himself did not go to the Trojan War (I believe), Achilles was the ranking Phthian at Troy, and hence owed a duty to no other city states, nor their kings. I suspect, however, his 250 Myrmidons, however, would have owed a duty to him. So, it is not that the concept of fighting for duty would have been alien to the ancient Greeks, but rather that the Achaeans formed only an informal confederation.
All the Greek heroes were like that, the days long fight between Ajax and Odysseus proves this, each was more interested in getting Achilles' armour than actually fighting the war.
@EsraYmssik1 Briseis in the film combines many characters. She is the slave girl whom Agamemnon takes from Achilles (Briseis). She is also the priestess of Apollo and daughter of Priam (Kassandra). She is the killer of Agamemnon (Klytaimnestra). She is the bed-mate of Achilles (Diomede). She is Priam’s young and beautiful virgin daughter (Polyxena). The Briseis of legend did not come from Troy at all, but was captured on the way there. "Rescue" does not equate to "capture".
I thought Breiseis was Priam's niece in the film?
Correct me if I’m wrong but I remember hearing about how before the Trojan war, there was a big dispute between all the kings of the Acheans/ suitors of Helen, on who would get to marry Helen. Thus, Odysseus in order to settle the dispute devised a plan/contest/drawing thing and made every suitor/king swear an oath that they would honor the winner of the contest and would fight against anyone who would try and steal away the winner’s wife- Helen. I believe Achilles and his men were part of that oath and I remember hearing also that Achilles even tried to hide from it with Patrolces on an island before the Acheans set sail for Troja but Odysseus reminded him of the oath and convinced him to fight with the Acheans. Thus Achilles and many of the men, especially the former suitors of Helen, had a moral duty to fight against Paris/alexandros.
This gentleman should host a history tv show
Er...from memory. they totally do that. They say "Yo Achilles, we're getting smashed by Hector, came and help."
He says "Pffft. Lol noob no. Duty? Fame? What's the point? I'm just going to die here, for what? Glory? Who cares. I'd rather go live on a farm and die of old age."
So...I'll double check, but duty, they most definitely appeal to, to help his fellow Acheans and he says "Ah, I've already done heaps."
And you might recall, it's duty to his friend that makes him go all beserker and smash everything.
... in a movie.
Krzysztof Piasek I've never seen a movie adaptation, but what the original commenter said is true to the book. At least Fagles translation, which is next to me on the bookshelf.
I'm watching a Yale lecture series on ancient greek (its on youtube) and the lecturer does talk about Achilles not having to fight. He talks about the fact that greeks weren't a monarchical society like almost every other society at the time, its more that they were a society ruled by arisotcratic nobles, among which there was a basilaes/basilaos (cant remember the spelling off the top of my head) who was generally in charge and for which king or chief is the closest translation. In an extreme situation like the Trojan war, Agamemnon might have been selected as the general of the collective army, but Achilles and any of his peers are not beholden to him in the same way that nobles would be beholden to a king in medieval Europe.
You omitted what finally DID get Achilles to fight... the slaying of his "companion", Patroclus. The movie "Troy" portrayed Patroclus as just Achilles' cousin, whereas in The Iliad, it's pretty clear that they're lovers. Achilles threw a small fit at Agamemnon for taking Bryseis (a captured slave girl) from him, but not nearly the fit he threw at Hector for killing his man...
+ElJulioso Lindy does touch on this in one of his more recent videos. Also regarding "they're lovers" I think it's often blown out of proportion. First and foremost they were friends. Friendship and the occasional bit of bumming was pretty common in the olden days of Greece.
They're not lovers you fucking piece of shit.
It's more likely they'd get together and take turns buggering some poor slave boy. A Greek citizen would not have submitted himself to that.
@skolvold In the ancient world the Macedonians were the first to use massive pike blocks in open battle. Homer writes of boarding pikes used on ships. They were not siege weapons. Defenders preferred to use missiles.
Nearly ten years later I stumbled across this one Lindy but i have been a subscriber to you for a long time now. So bit mystified why RUclips put it in my "suggestions" today?
I think you're absolutely spot on with this observation but if they were to remake Achilles in our present cultural climate ...
I'll end that as you ended your thought provoking video ....
Yup. In the age of heroes, they fought for personal glory. Duelist culture (personal violence) is exactly just that- personal glory. Sense of duty was developed as warfare (collective violence) thrived, as a consequence of sense of entitlement and belonging that comes with settling. That is why we (even to this day) think of backstabbing as a shameful tactic. That view was developed in the age of heroes because of duels. But as warfare began to thrive, ppl started to lean towards "all is fair in love n war" mentality. But of course at the time of trojan war, we are really looking at the late (if not the end) age of heroes. In the course of human history it goes like this; Fight for survival (hunter/gatherer )-> fight for personal glory (transitional period from H/G to settler status) -> fight for collective glory (well into settling culture).
The Iliad does mention that Hector and the Trojans were very much bound by duty, however. Consider, for example, the case where Andromache is asking Hector to not go back to the battle and stay and oversee the repairing of a wall or something, but he rejects her suggestion on the grounds of duty.
1. He loved her! Mr 'no'. 2. Your hair is just fantastic. Love it.
on a vintage lindybeige binge
It's pretty clear that "Troy" wasn't meant to be an exact retelling of the Iliad (and related tales), but rather to show the supposed "historical event" on which it was based. Thus, mixing-and-matching bits from the original works just fine.
I would say it wasn't meant to be that either. It was meant, in my opinion, just to be an entertaining movie. In that, it succeeded. If it was intended to show the supposed historical event, the Greek Armour would have been Mycenean Greek armour rather than a version of Classical Greek armour.
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/87/59/c5/8759c5baba0f377ebb763b8986a85843.jpg
The Batman Using such armor would have been expensive and look silly to modern audiences. So, sure, it was altered somewhat in hopes of being successful, but - clearly - the ultimate inspiration was to take the Trojan War as an historical event rather than a mythological one.
If they had wanted it to be mythical they'd have included the gods while if they wanted just a Hollywood block-buster they'd have included more classic "action movie" bits. Instead, we got the Trojan War presented as if a real event (if with anachronistic bits like Iron Age armor and ships) that inspired later stories.
Ranillon Either way, it was a good film. And I think one of the main reasons for avoiding the actual Mycenean armour was that it would cover up the faces of the stars a lot more, the same reason they never use real Corinthian Helmets in movies. Well, that and nobody involved in the film likely knew it wasn't the right armour historically speaking.
The main thing is, it didn't spoil the enjoyment of the movie.
@JulianGellert True, although there is no hint in Homer that this is why the other heroes fight. They all seem very keen to compete for glory.
I never thought about that duty thing. You are right.
2:30 I read the Illiad about a year ago do my memory may be foggy but isn't the denial to him of Briareus the whole reason Achilles stops fighting
Yes. Yes it is. Though it is a little more complicated than that.
the girl was not so important to him. what made him furious was the slight to his honour.
Regarding your point on Briseis:
When Odysseus, Ajax, and Phoenix visit Achilles to negotiate her return in book 9, Achilles refers to Briseis as his wife or his bride. He professes to have loved her as much as any man loves his wife, at one point using Menelaus and Helen to complain about the injustice of his 'wife' being taken from him. This romanticized, domestic view of their relationship contrasts with book 19, in which Briseis herself speaks. As she laments Patroclus' death, she wonders what will happen to her without his intercession on her behalf, saying that Patroclus promised her he would get Achilles to make her his legal wife instead of his slave.
So there is definitely precedence for Achilles rushing in to save her: he was rushing after his bride.
Well, the Trojan War Cycle (as with all classical myths) isn't really compatible with modern morality. The Iliad is filled with pretty much all terrible people who would all be villains in modern popular media. IMO, Hector is the most sympathetic character and he still has his jerk moments (not to mention epic cowardness in his duel against Achilles)
I'm not even sure if the people at the time were supposed to look up to the heroes in the story. I read a theory once that the story was a deconstruction of heroic ideals. Achilles is supposed to be the hero of the story, but he spends nearly the whole time sulking in his tent and only comes out for revenge when his lover is killed. Hector is valiantly defending his home, but runs away from Achilles in their fight. Many heroes are shown to be jokes (Ajax) or monsterou people (Neoptolemus). The way the Acheans finally win the war isn't through honourable battle, but through 'cowardly' subterfuge. Plus, do any of the heroes come out of the war and live happily very after? Odysseus spends decades lost and Agamemnon is murdered (though I don't remember what happens to Helen and Menolaus).
I'm going to seriously share this to just about all my friends
Homer called him Achaean, from Pthia. This was long before Macedonia, but it was a bit further north in Hellas - towards what later was Macedonia.
After reading The Iliad I thought Achilles was a jerk.
What about Perseus? I don't think he was an awful person.
@@acedragon1456
Might that be because you didn't look into the details of his myth, such as who Medusa was?
SidtheKid Not my man Diomedes! He was heroic and as selfless as a Greek Hero could be, he knew his limits, respected the Gods (which is a surprisingly uncommon trait among his peers), and befriended his enemies when he had the chance.
Rangatiratūmeke that is why nobody will remember your name
FALL BEFORE ACHILLES
@pugilistofpower Homer gives no hint of any homosexual passion between the two men, and he makes it clear that they both slept with women in their huts. This idea was added by later writers.
Well said, I too was amazed by Achilles reaction to her in the film. That he didnt club her over the head immediately tipped me off :P
Ah yes! How can I put this, ah, Splendid!! You made me laugh; deeply!
@winterlord21 It's a movie about a legend, so there is a lot of licence, but I suppose what struck me was the lack of faithfulness to the character of Achilles. Yes, if I make a film about Superman, I might make him German, and do away with the silly red cape, but then is this any longer a film about Superman?
I still love the movie. Ima watch it right now.
As I understand it, Achilles had no duty to fight because he has not taken an oath. He was younger than the other commanders, so he had not courted Helen back in the day, and therefore he had not taken the oath that bound her former suitors (most of the other commanders among the Achaeans) to help Menelaus take her back.
Achilles considered Briseis his wife. I could see somebody doing that for a spouse.
v1e1r1g1e1
Yes, in the Illiad, idiot. Achilles makes a whole speech about how if a whole war could start because Menelaus was parted from his wife, how much worse would it be if Achilles and Briseis were parted.
"Why has he gathered and led here his host, this son of Atreus? Was it not for Helen's sake? Do they then alone of mortal men love their wives, these sons of Atreus? No, for he who is a true man loves his own and cherishes her, as I too loved Briseis with all my heart." (Homer, Iliad 9.340)
You should probably read it before correcting someone.
None of the words for lover are ever used for Patroclus or Achilles in the text, however.
@norseczar27 This seems unlikely, if Troy were in Turkey. Other theories have placed Troy far afield. one serious (old) theory placed it in Britain.
Wait, I thought tht one of the reasons Achilles chooses not to fight was because Agamemnon Took a woman Achilles had captured (I believe from the Temple of Apollo).
you are right. the greeks raided several other smaller cities and villages to feed their army. when they divided the spoils agamemnon took a priestess of apollo and achlles some other woman. apollo got angry and demanded his servant be released, and achilles demands he obey. agamemnon then declares that if apollo is to have his slave, then he will get achilless'. he gets his way as head general. achilles in responce started something like a "strike". he only came out to fight when patroclus died out of grieg and anger.
Various theories, one being that it is to support straight-sided wooden structures above. I do wonder, though - it would be possible to do so without carrying the straight line all the way to the ground. Perhaps it is just that they liked the look.
why was i expecting him to say “cap” at the end instead of “no”
"I want what everyman wants. I just want it more."
As I understand it, Patroclus was Achilles's cousin, companion and lover. When he was killed in combat with Hector, Troy's best soldier and the King of Troy's son and prince, Achilles greatly grieved for him and actively sought combat with Hector.
Achilles killed him and dragged his dead body around the city of Troy and refused to give up the body, until Troy's king Priam went to his camp and got his body back after begging Achilles.
Unfortunately, not mentioned in Brad Pitt's movie.
@yanniskusogaki Thanks. No plans to go there in the foreseeable future, but good to know none-the-less. I've been there many times.
Absolutely correct. Achilles and his father owed no allegiance to Agamamnon (notwithstanding the film). Neither he nor his father had been among the suitors of Helen, who swore to help her husband.
He had to be recruited. He wanted fame.
@godofimagination They didn't draft him. In the legend, he wanted to go.
He was dressed as a woman and in disguise on Skyros. There he called himself Phyrra, after his red hair. This is where his son got his name Phyrros from. He was found out and was basically forced to come, even though his mother Thetis forces him not too, which is why he was in disguise in the first place
People forget that what we see now as bare stone was once plastered and painted, plus there would have been battlements on the top. Climbing the walls of troy would not have been easy. Even European castles were plastered and whitewashed when they were built/maintained (hence the white tower).
A very strong concept in the bronze age was the idea that immortality in part came from being remembered. Kings and Pharohs built monuments to themselves in part so they would not be forgotten, and destroying someones statues or chiseling out their name was seen as a method of reducing them to a nobody in the afterlife.
Archilles wasn't a client king of Agamemnon and instead was more of a mercenary warband leader. While the loot/women(and men) taken in battle would have been a reward for fighting in this life Archilles would have wanted sufficient fame so that long after his death people would still be speaking his name, stopping him from becoming just another nameless ghost in Hades. The war against Troy while not a war Archilles had to fight was simply too great an opportunity for fame and glory for a man like Archilles to pass by.
In some respects Archilles represented a archaic throwback to an age of adventurer warriors in an age of Kings. Archilles with his pride and his rage threatened the preordained fate of Troy and at times the Greek army. In some respects that is why his meeting with Priam, who had come to beg for the body of Hector, strikes such a cord, for the arrogant rage-filled warrior is shamed by a old man who loved his son. In that moment Archilles realises that - like Hector - he was destined to fall in battle and that he would meet Hector and all the men he had slain in the afterlife, so his disrespect of Hector's body was wrong.
It's not a documentary of what happened, it's just a creative recreation of what the writer thinks.
And it’s still amazing!
Lloyd,if you make a jump to Athens at some point I'll be more than happy to show you around,if you've got nobody else here I mean.Big fan.
Literally got an ad for Trojan condoms when the video ended no joke
1) valid points about Achilles in the movie 'Troy', but if you wanna be accurate about it, the biggest problem is Agamemnon dying in Troy thus negating all of the oresteia trilogy. 2) The Iliad is a product of mythological oral tradition attributed to a person (Homer) who most possibly, never existed and is also fictional. Therefore the Hollywood variation of a myth, cannot exactly be scrutinized under Historical terms.
brilliant!...simply brilliant ol chum!.......couldent have said it any better me self sir!......well?....its getting late lads....lets go home.
The Iliad is a myth about events that might have occured, but that is told in the eyes of people living 1 or 2 centuries later. Achilles, if he existed, would have been a noble who fought under a king for his own sake, but the fleet, the weapons and the armor are those of classical greek. If Achilles existed, he would have more probably worn an armour like those found at Dendra
@pmendes99 I have several. They are all slightly different shades of beige.
Short format Lindybeige, yay! 9 years ago? Oh well, carry on.
I'd say not. If I pay a mercenary to fight and he does not fight, then I think I can reasonably refer to his duty to fight, since he accepted my money. Achilles was an independent man who was there for the glory of it all, and of course the looting.
well when you climing up a wall like that the defenders can shoot arrows down at you and push heavy stones or whatever down on you. besides that ususally cities had more then one wall the second wall is usually taller then the first so as you climb up to the top of one not only do you have to deal with the defenders on top of that wall but also archers on the next wall before you can take the city. ie every city had muiltable layers of defense protecting them.
I read from somewhere that at the site of turkey troy there were many cities built one on top of another throughout ages. That wall might not belong to troy, even it was actually the site of troy.
According to Julian Jaynes, individuals in Bronze Age societies simply did not have self-consciousness in the way that later cultures did. The earliest books of the Old Testament are similar to the Iliad in this way. Whenever someone tries to account for their motivations, they always posit some external force. The idea that you can motivate yourself to do something is from later times. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)
Almost ever person I meet today is lacking in self awareness
Nothing has changed
@lindybeige I heard that Odysseus pretended to be insane to resist the draft, but the king didn't fall for it. The king then recruited Odysseus to find Achilles (who his mother changed into a woman as a disguise and hid him in a brothel). Odysseus dressed up as a peddler giving an assortment of goods to the prostitutes. When Achilles reached for the sword (among the goods), Odysseus knew who he really was. Maybe this was a different version? Or a different work altogether and I forgot the names?
Wise words.
Fair point about Wolfgang Petetsen's "Troy". But how about BBC's series "Troy: Fall of a City" and their take on Achilles, if not Illiad, as a whole? :)).
First line of the Iliad, "Sing, Hera, of the wrath of Achilles."
The lad threw a major mardy (or got a massive cob on, depending on your preference) and jeopardised the whole war over Briseis. Having Brad, sorry ACHILLES running after Briseis was possibly the least unbelievable part of the film for me.
My issue with Achillies is... why would a guy who supposedly only had a single weak spot on his entire body... not armour that one weak spot? If you get killed by being shot in the foot, wear armoured boots.
Was he not aware that he could be wounded there?
no one else knew about it, from what I understood the Goddess Athena told the prince paris where to shoot him. To armor his heel would be quite obvious he has a week spot. At that time to wear armor in an unusual place it to draw attention to it.
DGneoseeker1 The "weak spot" is not part of the Iliad AFAIK. I don't think Homer ever mentioned it. It is a later "invention".
Miguel Santos
Curious. So what happened in the Iliad? Was he meant to be arrow proof etc but then mysteriously wasn't against Paris...? Or was he just stated to be a generic hero and not actually proof to all harm?
DGneoseeker1 The Iliad is a small event in the 10 year war. Achilles doesn't die in the Iliad. The Iliad ends with these words "And such were the funeral rites of Hector, tamer of horses." Achilles is still alive and celebrating. Achilles, if I remember well, is not arrow proof in the original (Homer), only in later pastiches (Classic Greek and Roman). He can't even fight because he lost is armor. And that's very important to the plot of the Iliad.
Miguel Santos
Interesting...
"Mad Max 2: Road Warrior" is closest and best adaptation of the Iliad. Really is a book were the brutal savages wrote a book about themselves.
I dont know if you will see this, but daaamn you are really entertaining you need to get a TV Show or something like this you are fucking awesome
Sorry for the grammar 😅
English isn't my main lenguage 😐
But I will say something in my lenguage now!
You need to translate it i guess..
Du bist wirklich ziemlich unterhaltsam und das ist verdammt selten heutzutage die meisten Personen im TV sind nur Idioten die stumpf ablesen was ihnen gegeben wird aber du sagst einfach was du sagen willst und du tust es unterhaltsam und so dass man dabei etwas lernt!
Es ist wirklich unglaublich wie sehr du mich an den Bildschirm fesselst! :D
Ich wünsche dir wirklich viel Erfolg mit deiner Karriere !
the sloping walls thing fits with an idea that could be way off, but if you make a wall look impossible to climb an attacker (in the event of actually needing to scale them) would take the extra time to make ladders, towers, or a breach. if you make them look scale-able then a commander, under time constraints that prevents starving an enemy out, may decide that they don't need such equipment- a win for the defenders almost, because a man climbing a wall is easier to kill than a man in a tower.
Seriously I want you as my history teacher.
@skolvold One of the problems about poking downwards with a spear is that the other guy can grab it (lucky grab). There are numerous other problems with them, such as getting shot while you expose yourself to poke downwards, which is why (for once Hollywood has gotten this right, I have yet to see spear armed defenders poking over walls) they were never used in that manner. I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I thought I'd take a jab at it anyhow. A questions a question :P. Good luck with more.
Those walls were buried in Homer's time, yet he was able to describe them as sloped. Definitive proof that the Trojan war was a real event and a cultural memory from the Bronze Age.
this video is so good
The film Troy had a bronze sword slice through a solid gold statue like a fanboy's katana through a tank made of butter. Now admittedly I don't have a bronze sword or a solid gold statue to test that, but I'm iffy on just how easy that is to pull off..
he was a prince of his own country and apparently all his relatives didnt want him to go he wanted immortality through legends
I have no reason to believe that they couldn't make curved walls. The curve needed is very slight.
2:35 F for all the blinders out there
That area of the eastern med is also known for its inconvenient seismic events, and I'd wager that a sloped wall isn't generally as badly damaged by earthquakes a vertical one.
Brevity is the soul of not-longness.
polygonal masonry/stone work...beautiful stuff. you should visit mystery history's channel for more
It would be interesting see real people of that time on the screen.
I think last kingdom make a work.
Am I right?
It's worth remembering that his king had taken his 'prize' from him; if Achilles had any previous duty to Agamemnon, it clearly ended at that insult.