Honda Knock Sensor Testing: Could You See It Without A Scope?
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- In this video we see a perfect example of how a DVOM would have lead you astray when testing a piezo knock sensor. Resistance is good, AC voltage average is good but the sensor is bad!? Let the scope show you the answer so you don't go down the path of unnecessary ECM replacement!? Of course in this case if the only scope you used was the scope on the parts cannon you would have been right just winging a part at it based on the code alone but remember when that does not work it gets expensive! Test DON'T GUESS! -Enjoy!
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Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. South Main Auto Repair assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. South Main Auto Repair recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not South Main Auto Repair
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I made a mistake in the video because I think before I speak. I say "analog meter" I meant DVOM. My bad... forgive me??
South Main Auto Repair nope, unsubscribed
forgiven. lol
Giggiyygoo, you're only supposed to unsub when the phone rings...and give a thumbs down for each time the doorbell rings, I guess. :-P
aussiebloke609 yeah, I think I'll switch to this other guys channel, I think his name is Scotty and I heard he has a sweet old corvette
Yikes! Scotty...ahem...I mean SCOTTY KILMER??
Damn...it's hard to show volume when typing. LOL
As a DIY, and not yet up to speed as far as owning a scope(had no idea they are affordable). It would benefit all DIYers to be able to identify accurately problems with this sensor. Otherwise we will be spending our free time financially supporting the big box auto parts store buying parts not needed. There are already plenty of less educated DIYers who are presently doing that. We applaud your efforts of helping us understand modern technology,thanks again for your videos.
Jan Post on aes waves you can get a 1 channel labscope for less then $200
Another great example of a better explanation and an actual visual test of a good versus bad knock sensor. No parts cannon here. We test and then replace only known bad components!! Awesome
Great video, Eric. I had a Honda come into my shop today with a P0325. Hooked up the scope and tapped the block and the signal looked like garbage... just like the bad sensor in your video. It's nice to be able to tell the customer with certainty exactly what they need and know that it's going to fix their vehicle.
Excellent video Eric, a perfect example of why a scope is required to make a conclusive diagnosis. Great job. Cheers Andy
It can be difficult to diagnose modern vehicles without a good scope and bidirectional scan tool. Great example Eric.
I'm enjoying these scope videos, thanks.
I appreciate the details and explanation of what's going on in the waveform. Thanks keepem coming 👍
Literally just having gotten a scope I am really getting a ton of valuable information from your scope vids. Thank you!!
I'll add, I do like it when you explain exactly how and where you are making connections to test points. That gives us a good starting point when testing on our own.
Nice example & waveform. Scopes allow you to see details and anomalies you couldn't capture on a DVOM.
As a young tech, i love watching you're videos thanks for the hardwork love it
Great demonstration young man 👍
I have seen a couple of your recent videos on scopes. You've sold me! I'm gonna get a scope! I have been wanting one for other reasons, but this did it. - Love your vids!
ERIC-O. You would make one hell of a teacher. Thanks for another great video.
Nice video...
Thank you for sharing!
That's so cool... I've never had to replace a knock sensor yet, nor have I had a vehicle come in with a code for an issue for one. This is TOTALLY helpful! Especially with typical testing all checking out OK... This is a great tidbit!
One of the excellent features of the Pico are the measurements. You can easily take cursors and measure the True RMS / AC RMS of the knock signal. This will give you an number in addition to visual inspection of the signal.
I have multiple scopes including a pico 4425 but I’ve found some great deals on scopes just by checking craigslist and browsing pawn shops. I bought an OTC 3840f full kit that looked brand new a few months ago for $199 at the pawn shop. Still had the plastic on the screen and the leads were still tie wrapped in the original baggies.
That's awesome! Great find!
Score!
John Pilgrim they come that way new when they're stolen. Lol
Gerald lol. I bought it legit so no bad conscience here
Thanks for this video! I recently had knock sensor codes on my 02 Toyota and, sadly, I have limited DIY tools... No scope, not that I would have known how to use it anyway. And 'Son of a Monkey to get to' is putting it mildly. When I got to it, the sub harness was trash... old with brittle connectors from years in the engine heat, and that could have well been the issue right there, but being so danged difficult to get too, there was no way I was going to not replace the sensors as well. All ways wondered how I could have actually tested the old ones and now I know! Thanks again and keep em coming!
This is interesting, think I'll try it see what i come up with. Thanks for showing us what wave forms to look for, i would have never realized what was good or not.
Great video. There's nothing like having solid proof that the job is done right. Credibility leads to happy customers and more business!
The Pico is way out of my price range. Just bought a Hantek. Looking forward to putting it to the test in the future. The more I've watched your videos, the more I am convinced a scope is a necessary tool in the shop.
I just had this exact thing happen on a 2002 sienna. The old knock sensors tested good with a DVOM and strike tests but due to them being down in the V of the engine I changed them out and code gone. Guessed correctly but standard test was not definitive. Found Denso knock sensors for $18 each. I am glad I did because coolant hose in V was a disaster. I replaced it along with wire harness since I had it apart. Worth being a parts changer on this DIY job. Saved $$$$
Short but sweet! The knock sensor is a mystery device to many so this is a great help!
Perfect example! Thanks Dr. O!
Excellent video. The ecu is probably looking for the signal to cross polarity in order to detect the validity of the signal itself. The bad sensor doesn't have a clean sinusoidal waveform which is the root cause of this issue.
I love your scope videos. I have purchased a scope and love learning to use it through your videos
A really neat test old and new side by side thank you
For those DIY'ers Pico makes a small inexpensive 2-channel scope for less than $150. Google the PICO 2204A. I've been using it for about 6 months now and it's a great little scope - better than the u-scope which is only 1 channel in the same price range.
I think any professional shop would have to have a decent scope to be competitive. I'm just a home diy'er. I picked up the Pico 2205A recently and although it doesn't compare to the Automotive Pico's, I find that I can do more with it than without it. Thanks for all the great videos!
Or better the HSCOPE which has a automotive targeted license 😁
Excellent Illustration Eric.
Even as a DIY guy I have a scope and bidirectional scan tool. Why give the dealers the money when I can do most of it myself. The labor and charges saved over the years will make my money back since I keep vehicles long term.
I do a little side work to help offset some costs but not much enough to pay for the scan tool & scope. It's a learning experience and I love doing it even as a hobby. I was sold on Scope few years back as soon as I watched a ScannerDanner video. Even broke down and bought the book. You need this stuff with today's complex vehicles.
~"IF you love what you do you'll never work another day in your life"~
Great video. Very informative. BTW i have had this same issue on V6 PCM kept throwing a knock sensor Code for bank 1. i scoped both signals but couldnt tell the difference. so i joined both signal wires to the PCM . LOL
Nice test Eric!
A hammer can be a diagnostic tool!😉
Prime example of why a scope shines!
Now the battle in my mind continues .... paramotor ... scope .........paramotor ... scope .... gotta make a choice! :D
SCOPE! Then a new gun, then a new truck, then a new scan tool, then more tools, then something for the wife then mayyyyybbbeeee a paramotor... oh and food, don't forget food!
HAHAHAHA! Yeah, that would be more sensible! :)
Thanks Eric, I guess that would be a mechanical resonance it is sensing and a "dirty" signal on the bad sensor. Just trying to make sense of it...
I picked up a nano scope from aes wave a few years back fro about $120. It’s a single channel but it does the job quite well.
I'm not able to afford one of Pico's automotive scopes yet, but I have purchased the Pico 2205 which is WORLD's different from my Hantek 1008 (mainly due to the software & it's unexplainable lack of AC coupling). For all but CAN diagnostics, the 2205 or even cheaper 2204 can do everything I need with attenuators when needed
The only issue is the 2000 series Picos don't work with Picoscope Automotive 6.
Thank you brother just what I needed unfortunately I got rid of my Oscilloscope
That's a cool demo it's waving at you but it's waving the finger,
thank you! gonna set the pico up at parts counter tomorrow and practice on new ones
That's a good scope display Eric.. How about a "how to" vid sometime with replacement of those ever so troublesome GM 5.3L V-8 engine knock sensors? I did mine (with stupid crazy price) of the 2-wire harness as well a few months back.
Hi, You can also use FFT mode of the scope to see frequency and power distribution (spectrum) of these two sensors. Apparently defective one adds extra harmonics to the measurement and this (harmonic distortion) can be seen better on frequency domain. Thanks for the video.
Gotta love the parts cannon 😂 I love that phrase. Learnt it from this channel.
Dr O, you learned me something today. Thanks
I was trained in the NAVY on submarines to look for sounds shorts which can give away the sub location. I can read a scope and read just about any trace.
ncrdisabled Submarine vet
Thank you for your service
I second that - THANK YOU for your service, ncrdisabled Submarine vet!
All we had to work with was a Simpson 260.
Had a cousin, who's a certified mechanic, do that exact thing. Thought it was ecm, then he got curious and scoped it, and lo and behold sensor was bad. Saved customer $400.
"Every tool has a hammer side" - that funny. Lately I am finding every chisel has a nail finder built in - LOL - take care!
Every tool has a hammer side. How right you are!
Good video Eric with the DVOM thank you!!!
Great video Mr O
Nice demo. Thanks
U are right once agian perfect example
A PRINCIPLE called “entropy” operates throughout the universe. Entropy is defined as “the ultimate state reached in the degradation of matter from the physical and chemical action of weather, and friction from use. It is the principle we sometimes complain about as our automobile wears out needing repairs.
U the man -- keep up the good work
I would buy a scope, and use it in a heartbeat (and probably will) My problem is I work for a guy that is all about rushing through stuff and squeezing as many cars into a day as he can, and I am always getting grief for taking to long because I to like to be sure before throwing parts at something and hoping they stick. Guess I gotta find a different employer? I don't like to shoot the parts cannon but I know the guy that aims it...lol
Snake Skin Productions don't make excuses you can do it after doors are down if you want to be better you need to make some time. I hope I'm not hurting your feelings
david cisneros not at all all I was trying to say was I always try to do the best job possible it’s just my boss overlooks and pushes to get through all of them to the point of throwing parts at an educated guess and that’s not how I like to do things. Trust me I have thick skin.
Over books not overlooks
Thank you Eric. Good job. I appreciate your videos.
Another great tip from SMA!
Good tech. Nice video
From the perspective of a customer that is paying the bill. When you get a car that comes in with that code what percentage of the time is the sensor the problem? If it’s 75% or greater, as a customer , I would take the risk and let you go ahead and change the sensor instead of paying your labor rate to confirm failure with the scope, and then paying for you to replace the sensor.
Seriously though, I'm very interested in your scope vidz! However, You do a good job on all of your vids though
Oh wow, nice!! That one would be...difficult to diagnose without a scope, for sure. Definitely need to have functional knowledge, as well as manufacturer-specific code-setting criteria. If the PCM is throwing a circuit code, you could be chasing your tail for hours without a scope, but if it's a logic code, I'd probably verify circuit integrity via backprobe at the PCM and through scantool data, knowing that a piezo generator is incapable of producing the voltage and current required to toast the PCM, and swap the sensor. :)
Nice demo.
Nice video, thanks Eric..
Awesome! Thank you for more scope work! You ripper!
Love the quick vid. Able to watch in my smoko break.
good presentation
I just had the P0325 code on my '02 CR-V a couple of weeks ago! Being a DIYer without a scope, I fired the parts cannon at it with a new sensor and got lucky. The CEL has not returned. And you're right, these are a bit of a pain to get to, but I found it's not too bad if you come at it from underneath. Just curious, how many miles were on this '04 CR-V? My original sensor made it 133k miles. Great video!
Thanks for the video.
Thank you for the good information you rocket surgeon
Nice thanks Eric O.
considering where the knock sensor it on that car, would you be comfortable/confident in probing the line someplace convenient to see the waveform? Just thinking it'd be easier to do that then remove and WOULD confirm if it's an ECM problem not the knock sensor.
You can do a quick test with the multimeter, to know if it's completely dead or not. But if the multimeter says it's good then you can whip out the scope.
Great vids very informative,
If you could only have one scanner and a scope what would be your choices
Pete p in uk
I would keep my autel and pico
Thank Eric, that's an other sensor in my book of how to check stuff on a scope, who is this Guy Scanner Danner anyway? lol Every day's a school day cheers Buddy
The no 1 reason for me owning a scope? When I break out the Modis and the leads people step back and it makes me look like I know what I'm doing...fools everyone! Besides, how can one resist not adding a new tool to the inventory?! retirement is overrated! :p
Nice editing software eric 😱👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
That is soooo cool!! Yous be a genius! Damn scope again!!!
Good video Eric O.
after all these years, i finally got a scope, !!
Nice video Eric. Does the knock sensor circuit have a bias voltage on a 07 honda crv ex?
IMPRESSIVE "simple" video !!
-who would expect piezio crystals to fail that way?
-I have seen crystals DOUBLE frequency of oscillation but easily caught in pc computers- not in notebooks
but many main xtals easily replaced-( from other pc boards or even culled from cheap digital watches )
How do you keep the shop so neat? I am a one man shop and man its hard to keep shop neat. Mine is not dirty but everything in its place rarely happens.
great video as always, but dang it, I can feel the money leaving soon for a new Pico scope :-)
I see your point but, I would of put the knock sensor (=$40) in first before the PCM/ECM ($200) without even worrying about wire integrity. What, if any code, would you get if you unplug the knock sensor.
shhhh, don't ruin the way today's mechanics and techs are taught at collegiate levels ;)
It has nothing to do with being taught at collegiate levels. It has to do with the fact I do not want to look like a dumb ass when I shot gun a part at a car, fail, and then have to explain to my customer, "hello mr. customer, I know you paid me to diagnose your car but I must admit to you I did not. I took your money charged you for a part I did not even know if it was bad and come to find out I am wrong so I would like you to pay me again. This time I am gonna test it just like you paid me to the first time I PROMISE!" Sorry not how I work.
Awesome video. I have a 08 Toyota V6 and tends to ping from time to time. There is no code. You think knock sensor is bad??
try running a top end cleaner through it first, like Seafoam or something like it
The doctor has spoken. Time to buy a scope. Lol
well done Eric.sam
thank for the info
OK thats Honda. But is this information transferable? Would you or have you found other ECM's to be as fussy with regard to quality of the waveform?
You cannot use an ohm meter on a piezoelectric transducer to determine if it is good. However, a scope is still not required. You must use a capacitance meter instead. If you measure capacitance it will be out of spec.
Eric M But how do you know good capacitance range? The FSM doesn’t give it.
Automotive knock sensors have a resister in parallel with the crystal for the PCM to verify that the connections are good. Using a scope is a MUCH better way to test than a capacitance tester. Why? Because there are NO published specifications for a knock sensors values other than the waveform and resistance. Plus a scope can be used for far more testing on a vehicle than an ESR or capacitance meter ever could.
Blazer02LS just said a scope is not needed, and I agree scopes are useful, just not required to diagnose a bad knock sensor. You don't need to even know a good capacitance reading to test a knock sensor. You also lack the understanding that a knock sensor is essentially a capacitor, and they only accurate way to test a capacitor is with a capacitance meter. What you do is hook the capacitance meter between ground, and the lead off the knock sensor, and tap the sensor. If your capacitance value changes on the meter, it's bad.
I know exactly what a knock sensor is and that a capacitance meter is another item that 99.9% of the automotive techs are not going to have or have a use for.
Interesting thought on that. Never thought of measuring the capacitance of it . Get sucked in by service info measuring AC output, resistance of course and in some cases the bias that they ride it on. I wonder what they would be. 900 to 1700 pF area? Have you ever used that method of testing one? Good tip btw
Your fine, carry on!
Thanks for the video. Do you share your scope patterns on Pico?
Realy nice.
timing light + running vehicle providing it has some markings on pulley/balancer lol ;)
Knock knock knocking on Honda's door
Scopes. Pshaw... That's why we have guys like YOU,
HEY ERIC I WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAVE SEEN A COMMON PROBLEM WITH GM 6.0
KNOCK SENSOR PROBLEMS. I AM WONDERING WHATS YOU THINK CAUSES THEM TO GO BAD?
That's awesome thanks man
Yeah Yeah Yeah...I know i need a scope....Its on my list of things to get....One thing at a time...lol
Keep showing us the way Mr O....
Hey Eric, Did you have any suggestion for a PICO (Scope) that a DIY can used and obtain at a fordable price?
Good one