Most ballpoint pens require the "ball point" to be held more upright that a pen with a nib. The popularity and change to using ballpoint pens over nib style pens hastened the change from arm based writing to finger based writing. My Standard One teacher here in New Zealand, Miss Gunn used to insist when we wrote with a pencil, that we held it much flatter and used our arms to write. I regret never having kept up her advice. Up until the 1950s (at least here in NZ) children learnt to write on a slate with a slate pencil writing much larger letters than we would use for teaching children today. This learning on a slate encouraged children to use an arm method because the only way the large letters could be formed easily is by using one's whole arm - otherwise it is quite fatiguing on an adult's hand, let alone how difficult it must be for a child's hand. Several of my teachers (only those over a certain age) taught in this more traditional style. Although the letter forms were slightly different to those you are familiar with in the US. I would be interested to also know more about penmanship outside of the USA. Do you know of similar method books published in the British Empire? I had a good friend (the late Douglas Dean) who started working in the early 1950s with the National Bank (of New Zealand). When he first started he remembered the bank employed several then elderly men who sat on stools at high, slightly slanting desks, who would write official documents out with dip pens in what he described as perfect copperplate. By the end of the decade they were all gone and typed documents were used in all instances. My wife is a solicitor (lawyer) and at her first job the business (which started in the 1880s or 90s) still had this style of desk - although more of a curiosity than ever used. I believe wills, deeds and other legal documents were all handwritten here at one time and in beautiful scripts, often on actual parchment (at least in the 19th century).
I'm going to give this style of writing a try. I hand write EVERYTHING - because if I DON'T I'll forget it in an instant - and I'm developing arthritis in both hands, which is starting to cause pain as I write, especially in the top of my hand, where the tendons are. I can see how writing with my arm will offer a chance to keep handwriting, but - hopefully - not cause myself any extra pain. Thank you for your clear, concise description and demonstration. It's clarified a few things I've read about arm writing but haven't been able to clearly visualise what they meant. Also, I really need to get myself a dip pen. Or two.
If you haven’t tried them yet, there are some RUclips videos for hand stretches for artists. I only do a few (that a pianist actually taught me) and they help me a lot when I’m writing - especially with those tendons and the ones by my thumb. Maybe you’ll find a few that help you? I hope so!
@@Caz-jc6em thanks for that tip! I'll definitely have to look in to those stretches. Guess I've just found the next thing that will ruin my algorithm on RUclips, 😹😸
thank you very much dude, i have been having issue of writing fast and without pain for long duration in exams, and i feel arm writing can be the solution to this. I will practice it right now. Very helpful video, plz keep that up!
Tysm for this video. I have chronic pain syndrome as well as just regular wrist pain and fatigue so I think I need to implement this into my writing 100%
thank you so much for this video! about a year ago after midterms where i wrote a lot, I had this intense pain in my wrist whenever I wrote, and even though it's gotten less, I still have it. I recently found out I write "wrong", I write with my fingers and wrist, and draw the words with them instead of writing with my elbow and shoulder. I see positive responses in the comments so I'm excited to watch this video and hopefully make writing once again a painless experience and improve my handwriting as well!
Wow, that’s an exciting tip, that arm motion requires faster writing! I’ve been going very slowly to get the hang of the grip, relaxation, and letter shape. Seems a bit scary 😄 but I’m gonna go try that right now.
I started revamping my handwriting several years ago when I'd been done with school for several years and had fallen out of practice with writing by hand, such that my hand would cramp when I needed to take notes. It was then that I learned about writing with my arm/shoulder, as like many here I learned to write with my fingers (or I was at least not corrected while learning d'nealian handwriting as taught in the 1970s), and I still haven't grasped (no pun intended) which movements should be controlled with the shoulder vs. the forearm vs. the wrist vs. the fingers. I do recall being told in 1st grade that some maintained that the pencil tip should point at the shoulder, but I never understood how this was ergonomically possible until it was demonstrated here that arm-writing involves rotating the hand palm-down. Even so with this orientation my fingers block my view. A short time ago I thought I'd found my sweet spot as it were with finger writing, as I was producing tidy, consistent script by "pulling" the pen across the page; but it seems that this is highly dependent on the state of my neck muscles, as too much tightness creates a certain degree of nerve impingement (though not painful - just some hand numbness at times) that in turn affects my fine-motor skills. The size of the page seems to be a factor too as my writing is much sloppier on paper that is harder to hold still. So here I am again, revisiting the idea of arm and shoulder-writing.
I'm actually here after getting very frustrated with my death grip when drawing. Thank you so much for all the tips! It's going to be a challenge to essentially re-learn decades of death gripping but I am very eager for my hands not to hurt :)
You’ll figure it out. It will feel uncomfortable but eventually you’ll wonder why you didn’t learn sooner. You’ll still need to use your fingers for drawing, but you can learn to do that without a death grip too. Your strokes will suffer for a while, so you just gotta put up with that for a while.
holy fuck i searched for how to write with a fountain pen with your left hand and nothing truly helps. but this, the palm down thing, it works! the most effective thing so far! thank you so much!
I'm used to writing this way since childhood, but it was very frustrating for my benchmates because the table would keep shaking. I'm not able to get rid of this :(
This is very nice summary of the topic. I was kinda interested in writing and calligraphy, but never had enough success to kickstart me to get serious about it. And this is why... I had no idea that arm writing is a thing, and for calligraphy, a superior one. I needed to know this some 30 years ago I guess.
I wouldn’t say arm writing is superior unless you are studying business penmanship, ornamental penmanship, or offhand flourishing. That said, arm movement can be incorporated into just about any script and the best calligraphers have the ability to work with arm movement when needed.
What tips do you have to help me relax. I am an "intense" person by nature and it clearly shows in my handwriting. I like my speed but it's legibility, arm, hand and finger relaxation make it very hard to read my own handwriting. It's as if something else is controlling my hand when I write. Basically I will write and them start making scribbles to relax then start writing again.
Been looking into this recently to improve handwriting neatness and reduce hand cramping. The biggest issue I have with your advice is the need for constant pronation of the of the hand/forearm. As someone who has had operations on both wrists (carpal tunnel), I am very sensitive to the kind of fatigue that comes from such a stressor. Any thoughts? Thanks!
I don't believe I'm pronating my hand/forearm. When I write, my hand and arm are in very natural and relaxed positions that puts no strain on the muscles or tendons. Let me know if looks differently though!
I'm learning arm movement at the moment. I find it to be a better way to write for using flex nib fountain pens because the tines can be pointed to the same direction of my slant to maximise flex without turing my page too much or bending my wrist at all. Can't say the same for finger writing. Although, arm movement produces more powerful sweeping strokes that shake your table like crazy and my classmate next to me would certainly not enjoy that.
Thank you so much for your informative series. Just checking if this movement can be adapted ti write Copperplate? I am working on my grip at the moment and I realized the whole arm movement is best for flourishing and if I write normally, Im back at writting with my fingers. Thank you. Ash
Awesome. Thanks a bunch for replying. I am working to grip lighter when writing Copperplate and I definitely need to work on Spencerian grip. Its too easy to write with fingers cause thats how I write for so long. :(
What is your opinion on writing with the paper tilted? I tried my best to write with paper straight in front of me, but it is super uncomfortable, and if anything makes cramping easier despite writing with the arm.
Hello! Thank for this. Which part of the writing hand touches the table when you’re writing with the arm? Does the hand float, With just part of the arm touching the table? Thank you 🙏
How do you go the other way though? Lol I think my handwriting is terrible in part because I mostly use arm movement, there's a little bit of finger movement, but my writing looks like childs printing. Even when i slow down to try i have a hard time.
If your forearm is planted on the edge of the table, how do you make vertical letters like "l"? How do you go down a line? Wouldn't that require you to rub your arm up and down against the edge of the table? Isnt that extremely painful?
No it doesn’t require any sliding. The forearm muscle has some elasticity or “give” to it that gives you the range of motion necessary to make all the letters.
Yes, go through Consistent Cursive first. That will teach you the basics of cursive script and how the letter forms work visually. Then the Palmer Method course will teach you how to create those forms with arm movement.
@@Adi0-e8v no, it makes it harder to be consistent. The arm allows you to make strokes with higher line quality and it facilitates the writing of a wider more spaced script. It also allows you to write for a long time without pain or fatigue.
@PerfectBiscuits Mr biscuits, another question. I write with my fingers I use a tripod grip and I don't know if I should use my middle finger and index to move the pen or all 3 fingers(thumb index and middle) which fingers control the pen movement?
I got it from Paper Ink and Arts. It’s a “Turn of the Century” holder. Wouldn’t recommend it though. The nib fitting is made of wood, the ones that are made of metal are much better.
@@AverageGreaseMonkey Nice, thanks for watching. Reach out anytime. Contact form on my website is the best way if you have a question or want me to review your work.
this topic of writing with hands, arm, fingers or mix of them seems to be a little polemic T.T it's confusing for people seeking to improve. It feels almost impossible to write small with arm movement though. :-(
@@PerfectBiscuits really? I thought it would help with longer writing sessions, school notes etc.. I surely want to develop better handwriting, but also something fast and usable on a daily basis. Still I've been finding myself on somewhat of a middleground. But I think that because my table is too high and I can't adjust more, I end up changing my arm a lot depending where in the paper I am, which adds difficulty in being consistent.
@@calebe16 Arm writing will definitely help with all of that, but it's not easy to learn. You have to really want to learn it and if you don't have that desire, there's nothing wrong with focusing on all the other ways you can improve your handwriting, speed, and endurance.
@@PerfectBiscuits I think I'm getting your point. Just found your series of consistent Cursive. It seems very interesting. I'm willing to put some time into relearning how to write bc it's been kind of fun and so much easier on my my hands. Last year there were a few days I couldn't take as many notes in university due to wrist and finger pain. Plus seeing nicer writing has been getting me writing for a long time for pleasure. That's quite nice bc I never really liked writing. hahah
This is hard. I just tried it and it makes my handwriting look way sloppy. Of course the normal way I was taught to write with my fingers per se makes my hand and fingers cramp but my handwriting looks better that way
I just started writing like this. Or, trying to. Writing with my fingers, I have very good cursive handwriting. It’s like learning to write all over again. But, I can go faster and with less pressure put on the page. So my script looks lighter and more wispy. I like it so far, but have trouble finding control.
Most ballpoint pens require the "ball point" to be held more upright that a pen with a nib. The popularity and change to using ballpoint pens over nib style pens hastened the change from arm based writing to finger based writing.
My Standard One teacher here in New Zealand, Miss Gunn used to insist when we wrote with a pencil, that we held it much flatter and used our arms to write. I regret never having kept up her advice.
Up until the 1950s (at least here in NZ) children learnt to write on a slate with a slate pencil writing much larger letters than we would use for teaching children today. This learning on a slate encouraged children to use an arm method because the only way the large letters could be formed easily is by using one's whole arm - otherwise it is quite fatiguing on an adult's hand, let alone how difficult it must be for a child's hand.
Several of my teachers (only those over a certain age) taught in this more traditional style. Although the letter forms were slightly different to those you are familiar with in the US. I would be interested to also know more about penmanship outside of the USA. Do you know of similar method books published in the British Empire?
I had a good friend (the late Douglas Dean) who started working in the early 1950s with the National Bank (of New Zealand). When he first started he remembered the bank employed several then elderly men who sat on stools at high, slightly slanting desks, who would write official documents out with dip pens in what he described as perfect copperplate. By the end of the decade they were all gone and typed documents were used in all instances. My wife is a solicitor (lawyer) and at her first job the business (which started in the 1880s or 90s) still had this style of desk - although more of a curiosity than ever used. I believe wills, deeds and other legal documents were all handwritten here at one time and in beautiful scripts, often on actual parchment (at least in the 19th century).
Very fascinanting read
I'm going to give this style of writing a try. I hand write EVERYTHING - because if I DON'T I'll forget it in an instant - and I'm developing arthritis in both hands, which is starting to cause pain as I write, especially in the top of my hand, where the tendons are. I can see how writing with my arm will offer a chance to keep handwriting, but - hopefully - not cause myself any extra pain. Thank you for your clear, concise description and demonstration. It's clarified a few things I've read about arm writing but haven't been able to clearly visualise what they meant.
Also, I really need to get myself a dip pen. Or two.
If you haven’t tried them yet, there are some RUclips videos for hand stretches for artists. I only do a few (that a pianist actually taught me) and they help me a lot when I’m writing - especially with those tendons and the ones by my thumb. Maybe you’ll find a few that help you? I hope so!
@@Caz-jc6em thanks for that tip! I'll definitely have to look in to those stretches. Guess I've just found the next thing that will ruin my algorithm on RUclips, 😹😸
I was wondering if you had any update about your writing journey and what you've learned
thank you very much dude, i have been having issue of writing fast and without pain for long duration in exams, and i feel arm writing can be the solution to this. I will practice it right now. Very helpful video, plz keep that up!
Dude, super great videos; part 1 and 2! You explain through your thoughts very well. Keep it up!
The best video on youtube I'm regards to handwriting posture and technique. You are a true help to many of us thank you.
Thanks for watching.
Tysm for this video. I have chronic pain syndrome as well as just regular wrist pain and fatigue so I think I need to implement this into my writing 100%
This video is exactly what was looking for, thank you very much
No problem, thanks for watching! If you have any questions, let me know.
Great video…exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!
Great change in writing . This will provide freedom and further improvements.
thank you so much for this video! about a year ago after midterms where i wrote a lot, I had this intense pain in my wrist whenever I wrote, and even though it's gotten less, I still have it. I recently found out I write "wrong", I write with my fingers and wrist, and draw the words with them instead of writing with my elbow and shoulder. I see positive responses in the comments so I'm excited to watch this video and hopefully make writing once again a painless experience and improve my handwriting as well!
Wow, that’s an exciting tip, that arm motion requires faster writing! I’ve been going very slowly to get the hang of the grip, relaxation, and letter shape.
Seems a bit scary 😄 but I’m gonna go try that right now.
I started revamping my handwriting several years ago when I'd been done with school for several years and had fallen out of practice with writing by hand, such that my hand would cramp when I needed to take notes. It was then that I learned about writing with my arm/shoulder, as like many here I learned to write with my fingers (or I was at least not corrected while learning d'nealian handwriting as taught in the 1970s), and I still haven't grasped (no pun intended) which movements should be controlled with the shoulder vs. the forearm vs. the wrist vs. the fingers. I do recall being told in 1st grade that some maintained that the pencil tip should point at the shoulder, but I never understood how this was ergonomically possible until it was demonstrated here that arm-writing involves rotating the hand palm-down. Even so with this orientation my fingers block my view. A short time ago I thought I'd found my sweet spot as it were with finger writing, as I was producing tidy, consistent script by "pulling" the pen across the page; but it seems that this is highly dependent on the state of my neck muscles, as too much tightness creates a certain degree of nerve impingement (though not painful - just some hand numbness at times) that in turn affects my fine-motor skills. The size of the page seems to be a factor too as my writing is much sloppier on paper that is harder to hold still. So here I am again, revisiting the idea of arm and shoulder-writing.
Me as an Arm Aimer: I know it's hard but, for me, it's a peace of cake.
👁️👄👁️
i’m an arm aimer it’s still very hard😭😭
I'm actually here after getting very frustrated with my death grip when drawing. Thank you so much for all the tips! It's going to be a challenge to essentially re-learn decades of death gripping but I am very eager for my hands not to hurt :)
You’ll figure it out. It will feel uncomfortable but eventually you’ll wonder why you didn’t learn sooner. You’ll still need to use your fingers for drawing, but you can learn to do that without a death grip too. Your strokes will suffer for a while, so you just gotta put up with that for a while.
Very informative video. Thank you ☀️
holy fuck i searched for how to write with a fountain pen with your left hand and nothing truly helps. but this, the palm down thing, it works! the most effective thing so far! thank you so much!
I've been writing with fingers and wrist for my whole life, but my handwriting looks much neater after using arm for first time.
I'm used to writing this way since childhood, but it was very frustrating for my benchmates because the table would keep shaking. I'm not able to get rid of this :(
This is very nice summary of the topic. I was kinda interested in writing and calligraphy, but never had enough success to kickstart me to get serious about it. And this is why... I had no idea that arm writing is a thing, and for calligraphy, a superior one. I needed to know this some 30 years ago I guess.
I wouldn’t say arm writing is superior unless you are studying business penmanship, ornamental penmanship, or offhand flourishing. That said, arm movement can be incorporated into just about any script and the best calligraphers have the ability to work with arm movement when needed.
What tips do you have to help me relax. I am an "intense" person by nature and it clearly shows in my handwriting. I like my speed but it's legibility, arm, hand and finger relaxation make it very hard to read my own handwriting. It's as if something else is controlling my hand when I write. Basically I will write and them start making scribbles to relax then start writing again.
You associate intensity with control and relaxation with a lack of control. There are no “tips” that could change this.
Been looking into this recently to improve handwriting neatness and reduce hand cramping. The biggest issue I have with your advice is the need for constant pronation of the of the hand/forearm. As someone who has had operations on both wrists (carpal tunnel), I am very sensitive to the kind of fatigue that comes from such a stressor. Any thoughts? Thanks!
I don't believe I'm pronating my hand/forearm. When I write, my hand and arm are in very natural and relaxed positions that puts no strain on the muscles or tendons. Let me know if looks differently though!
Very helpful video. Thank you very much.
I'm learning arm movement at the moment. I find it to be a better way to write for using flex nib fountain pens because the tines can be pointed to the same direction of my slant to maximise flex without turing my page too much or bending my wrist at all. Can't say the same for finger writing. Although, arm movement produces more powerful sweeping strokes that shake your table like crazy and my classmate next to me would certainly not enjoy that.
Wtf
Very helpful video, ty for making
Thank you so much for your informative series. Just checking if this movement can be adapted ti write Copperplate? I am working on my grip at the moment and I realized the whole arm movement is best for flourishing and if I write normally, Im back at writting with my fingers. Thank you. Ash
That's exactly right for copperplate - arm movement for flourishing (or really big capital letters) and finger movement for the rest.
Awesome. Thanks a bunch for replying. I am working to grip lighter when writing Copperplate and I definitely need to work on Spencerian grip. Its too easy to write with fingers cause thats how I write for so long. :(
Good comparison between finger-writing and arm-writing
What is your opinion on writing with the paper tilted? I tried my best to write with paper straight in front of me, but it is super uncomfortable, and if anything makes cramping easier despite writing with the arm.
You have to tilt the paper. Paper only looks kinda straight in this video because the camera angle.
thanks for the tips
Hello! Thank for this. Which part of the writing hand touches the table when you’re writing with the arm? Does the hand float, With just part of the arm touching the table? Thank you 🙏
The hand floats, but you glide on the nails or knuckles of the 3rd and 4th fingers.
How do you go the other way though? Lol I think my handwriting is terrible in part because I mostly use arm movement, there's a little bit of finger movement, but my writing looks like childs printing. Even when i slow down to try i have a hard time.
Can you link your next video? Years down the line, I'm having trouble finding "next."
@@DanielBooth-i8f yes just added the link to the description, thanks! And here’s the link:
ruclips.net/video/c5cW5reffTg/видео.html
@@PerfectBiscuits Awesome! Thanks!
If your forearm is planted on the edge of the table, how do you make vertical letters like "l"? How do you go down a line? Wouldn't that require you to rub your arm up and down against the edge of the table? Isnt that extremely painful?
No it doesn’t require any sliding. The forearm muscle has some elasticity or “give” to it that gives you the range of motion necessary to make all the letters.
i shake my hand for some letters, just shaking which is not noticable in the text.
Hardly readable because size of my letters
Nicely done! Semper Fi
I’m terrible at writing and just getting started with your courses. Should I go through the consistent cursive course before the Palmer method course?
Yes, go through Consistent Cursive first. That will teach you the basics of cursive script and how the letter forms work visually. Then the Palmer Method course will teach you how to create those forms with arm movement.
@@PerfectBiscuits Thank you!!
Thanks!
Would be better if you can show the movement of the right arm as well.
Thank you for this
QUESTION my handwriting is really inconsistent and I don’t know whether I should write with my fingers and arm or my just my arm. Any advice? Thanks!
Just fingers, forget about the arm.
@@PerfectBiscuits I thought the arm gives consistency though?
@@Adi0-e8v no, it makes it harder to be consistent. The arm allows you to make strokes with higher line quality and it facilitates the writing of a wider more spaced script. It also allows you to write for a long time without pain or fatigue.
@@PerfectBiscuits hm
@PerfectBiscuits Mr biscuits, another question. I write with my fingers I use a tripod grip and I don't know if I should use my middle finger and index to move the pen or all 3 fingers(thumb index and middle) which fingers control the pen movement?
great vid
🎉🎉
Where did you get your nib holder? What brand is it?
Thanks for the video
I got it from Paper Ink and Arts. It’s a “Turn of the Century” holder. Wouldn’t recommend it though. The nib fitting is made of wood, the ones that are made of metal are much better.
What pen is that?
Esterbrook 1000 nib in some wooden penholder I bought online, don't remember!
@PerfectBiscuits awesome. I've been slowly watching your videos. Really enjoying it. I've learned a lot!
@@AverageGreaseMonkey Nice, thanks for watching. Reach out anytime. Contact form on my website is the best way if you have a question or want me to review your work.
How long did it take for you to write with you arm
Probably 4 months before I felt comfortable with it. Another 4 months before I could write legibly.
@@PerfectBiscuits got it. Thanks, I’m trying to write cursive with my fountain pen. So I had to get as much information
when i write with my arm it makes my rotator cuff hurt after a while...
Your rotator is weak
@@PerfectBiscuits I can do muscle ups...
You have to sit straight
Nice
this topic of writing with hands, arm, fingers or mix of them seems to be a little polemic T.T it's confusing for people seeking to improve.
It feels almost impossible to write small with arm movement though. :-(
Yea if you merely want to improve your handwriting, I wouldn't even get into the topic of arm writing.
@@PerfectBiscuits really?
I thought it would help with longer writing sessions, school notes etc..
I surely want to develop better handwriting, but also something fast and usable on a daily basis.
Still I've been finding myself on somewhat of a middleground. But I think that because my table is too high and I can't adjust more, I end up changing my arm a lot depending where in the paper I am, which adds difficulty in being consistent.
@@calebe16 Arm writing will definitely help with all of that, but it's not easy to learn. You have to really want to learn it and if you don't have that desire, there's nothing wrong with focusing on all the other ways you can improve your handwriting, speed, and endurance.
@@PerfectBiscuits I think I'm getting your point. Just found your series of consistent Cursive. It seems very interesting.
I'm willing to put some time into relearning how to write bc it's been kind of fun and so much easier on my my hands.
Last year there were a few days I couldn't take as many notes in university due to wrist and finger pain.
Plus seeing nicer writing has been getting me writing for a long time for pleasure. That's quite nice bc I never really liked writing. hahah
I tried it but feels wrong and more complicated for me
Haha yes, that means you’re doing it right! It’s not for everyone though.
Why do I clench my whole fist around the pen/pencil?!!!!!! I’ve been doing it since I’ve known how to! Why?
I think you answered your question.
Subbed.
Why is the audio so low!
You could say that arm writing is better because you can write longer faster without a writer’s cramp.
this is free???
This is hard. I just tried it and it makes my handwriting look way sloppy. Of course the normal way I was taught to write with my fingers per se makes my hand and fingers cramp but my handwriting looks better that way
My handwriting with wrist and fingers is the worst handwriting in the history of mankind
I write with my elbows lmao
Audio quality is not good
Bro.. how can arm writing be quicker,you have to reposition the paper itself rather than your hand,which is a natural instinct and come out of flow!
because it's quicker if you plan to only write in the central 4 inches of your page lol.
dude you could get to the point much faster
Dude i dont care
@@PerfectBiscuits i didnt ask if you did
I just started writing like this. Or, trying to. Writing with my fingers, I have very good cursive handwriting.
It’s like learning to write all over again. But, I can go faster and with less pressure put on the page. So my script looks lighter and more wispy. I like it so far, but have trouble finding control.
Control is the name of the game. Let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll help as best I can.
𓊈 𝐀𝐬𝐩𝐡𝐨𝐝𝐞𝐥 𓊉 how is it now?