42:19 yes this is referencing the awfully written scene where akechi and shido just outright state what they've done in an evil manner but i also need to state that i swear to god half the time the writers dont know how to write akechi as actually smart, so he'll just state the obvious or an observation the player has already made
The worst part is you could cut that scene out entirely and it changes nothing. Any player with half a brain that’s been paying attention will understand what Akechi has been up to the instant he betrays you. Then he mentions that Shido is his father and the last piece will fall into place.
@@SolarArmadillo I'm willing to cut the writers a bit of slack because of the way P5 is structured. There could be any number of side stories going on at once, between the main story, the confidants, and Mementos requests, not to mention the game is so damn long; it's reasonable to think players may have been struggling to keep track, or may have forgotten some key story beats. While some flashbacks (like the Makoto 'useless' one) happen so quickly that it's probably unnecessary, it's fine to have a quick "hahahehehoohoohoo we are the bad guys and this is how we do bad guy things" summary at the end of the big plot twist just to ensure that everyone is on the same page.
@@PlayMadness I think I'll always find it condescending/demeaning (or just annoying, after a point). I understand the perspective, because I play Persona games over the span of months (and years, although I tend to restart if that happens). And Persona 5 especially just comes across super heavy-handed. They have that story section in the settings, just remind people it exists and maybe flesh it out a little when you see a big time-gap in between their play sessions (because the telemetry for that is being tracked already, and games have used that since pokemon FireRed).
@@マリー-v4p vanilla akechi was great in royal, due to the social link. Words like how mona says he doesn't really hate joker and joker calling out about akechi's glove are extremely good touches.
I completely understand not listening to the outcry from chat that "you have me" locks you into dating Ann since that option is so fucking mundane and reasonble for a friend, like Waffles, to say to Ann. Edit: especially since this is his first run through the game and he only had experience with the confusing and restricted confession responses a while back in the playthrough, he seems a little forgetful-ish at times.
It feels like they weren't prepared for you to ACTUALLY pick her and were just expecting you to hand her off to Ryuji. She even clings onto him during the beach trip if I remember correctly. Canon relationship pick feels like Futaba because her very existence is fanservice incarnate, followed by probably Makoto since she's Sae's sister and pretty plot relevant
@@PrismTheKid there's absolutely no canon relationship, I really don't like the conversation around that idea because it ruins the point 😭 if you wanna talk about which ones were pushed most, I def would not say futaba. Yoshizawa, Ann, and makoto, in that order, is what I would say is most pushed
I dunno, the "I should choose my words carefully" warning right before the choice makes it pretty obvious which one is the romantic option. I agree that in a vaccum that response doesn't sound particularly romantic at all, but with that clear warning directly before, you should know.
Man, Royal really did a number on Akechi’s character. In base P5 he’s easily the worst part of the game for me, and watching this playthrough just reminded me of why. It’s crazy, too, bc in royal I actually really like him.
I didn't play P5 OG. So I never had this version of Akechi. I did initially hate him, but as soon as he reveals he doesn't just look like Light Yagami he IS Light Yagami I was completely on board. Besides Yusuke he was my favorite party member.
I've only played P5R so you could not imagine the confusion when I found out that everything I liked about Akechi's character was Royal exclusive content
Haru is so damn powerful to convince Joe to dump Hifumi. She’s by far the sweetest character in all of Persona, also she’s adorable, cute and rich not to mention she’s an absolute beast in combat. Also she falls in love so much with Joker she gets so upset when you friendzone her she is like “sorry let’s meet another time now I have to go cry on my pillow all night long”. I think almost all of us have reevaluated her after her appearance in some of the worst dumbest scenes in the whole game because she’s just too nice to have around to treat her bad.
@roberthouse7040 that lines sound so genuine, she just enjoy throwing her axe around as well as crippling and blowing up things. That’s part of her charm. She’s probably the fiercest fighter not counting mr black mask and that’s actually completely fine in the metaverse creating a good contrast, you would never expect someone as nice as her doing that. I guess it’s truly her anti-stress after all.
Haru's is definitely the most underrated girl in P5 I think she would've been as popular as Naoto if she was just a little bit sprinkled through the first 2/3 of the game Maybe noticing what's going on or her father's company be more involved with the early cases As is she comes so late in the game, most first time players would've already have a girl by that point (guess they gave Haru's screentime to Kasumi in Royal) But I don't think anyone can actually dislike Haru, she has so much going on and she gets shit done in her Confidant. Also she almost openly pursued Joker and you basically had to reject her, non of the other romances do that. She is super kind, but not a pushover and she takes initiative
It's so damn bad for me, my favorites, naoto and kasumi (and haru if kasumi wasn't a thing) only end up as choices so late in the game I don't get to see most of the funny mid game events with them
It's funny that the single digit IQ phantom thieves were able to pick up on the pancake comment right away when usually it takes them days to realize that Sakura is bosses last name, or "this is what's known as hacking" there are countless examples of their skills being the most high density material on Earth but this one time Ryuji, Ann, and Morgana were able to pick up on that immediately.
Yeah, it's really hard to go along with these guys as master heist planners and brilliant Arsene Lupin-esque masked thieves when Ann and Ryuji are on the team. They wanted the fun comedic relatability of Persona 4's cast of well-meaning doorstops but also wanted Oceans Eleven and you can't really have both when you're constantly writing about them making blatant mistakes and outing themselves. Suddenly they've got one over on Akechi and it's like they were pretending to be dumb the whole time
@@PrismTheKid I think the Investigation Team is portrayed as far smarter and more level headed then the phantom thieves. Maybe I only noticed because I played Persona 5 first but there were multiple times when Chie correctly guessed something during their brainstorming sessions. There was also only one real point in the game in which the team was divided on what they should do and it felt far less forced then the decision to go after Okumura, probably because it was far more serious with a lot of emotional build up, I of course am talking about December 3rd. Finally and this was what actually started getting me to think about and compare the two teams, the Investigation Team never had any real problem with not getting credit for stopping the murders, they were perfectly content with the police taking all of the credit realizing that it would only cause more trouble for them to be put under suspicion. When you really compare the two teams it makes you realize that the Phantom Thieves really brought a lot of trouble on themselves by being so immature. That all being said from a meta narrative perspective it is or at least should be theoretically far more interesting for characters to have flaws like this and get over them through character development, it is just that for the Investigation Team, their character development happened within the context of their respective dungeons and social links, and was not part of the plot in the endgame. The closest thing you get to them having character growth impacted by the endgame is in the conversations directly preceding their third tier awakenings in Golden, in which they compare themselves to the killer they were chasing after having already confronted them. PS. I am not a big fan of the investigation team's dialogue during their confrontation with the killer and if you look at that in a vacuum I would certainly agree it gives a very poor impression of them as naively hopeful characters, every time I see that scene I find it very frustrating how they choose to respond to the points being made by the killer, who all along was set up as a far more relatable character to anyone in the Team anyway, especially if you are an adult.
I do think it's a bit more reasonable just because Morgana (and potentially Joker) is specifically the one that noticed it. If you could only talk to a select few people and someone joined a conversation referencing something you said, it'd be extremely blatant.
Yes! That's the biggest issue. How did those brainlets manage to fool Akechi? Ryuji is about as smart as a stack of brick, Ann is terrible at acting, Futaba is a hikikomori with nonexistant social skills, and Yusuke is a walking incarnation of maxed out Inland Empire. Makoto and Haru were good enough to lie to Sae, so maybe they could've done it. But everyone was onto Akechi, and there's no way he would fail every spot check for a month. I'd let the pancake comment slide, though. On a rewatch, it seems that only Morgana noticed it, and for a good reason: he would naturally pay attention to someone other than the three Phantom Thieves referencing something he said. It didn't stand out to us, but it stood out to him. It kind of makes sense - as long as you don't question why Morgana didn't bring it up earlier.
Joe seems confused on some details, so my best timeline of the interrogation scene: 1. the 100+ cops in the metaverse were likely cognitive cops acting on behalf of Akechi, who we've already seen "using palaces for his own purposes" as I think both Madarame and Kaneshiro allude to. Joker gets arrested in the metaverse, transported back across the entrypoint and into the real world investigation room by Akechi. 2. Akechi's plan is to frame the scene as a murder-suicide by placing the gun in your hand, then leaving and having it be someone else's problem to discover. The real world cop guarding the door is an inside man, working for Shido and Akechi. we can also then assume there's no CCTV or they managed to have it erased 3. When Akechi shows up and Sae is startled to see him: he is most likely lying here and hasnt been scheduled to interrogate Joker. Most likely only he, Shido, and the guard know he's there, meaning he doesn't need to answer to anyone after the fact 4. Sae shows the phone to Akechi, and at that moment Futaba hacks it to activate the metanav app, unknowingly transporting them into the metaverse. Akechi then enters the room and shoots a cognitive Joker in the metaverse 5. Akechi unknowingly crosses the entrypoint back into reality when exiting the police station. the entrypoint must be fairly nearby because we see Sae leaving, then returning shortly after to ask the real world guard if he's seen anyone come by, to which he says no 6. Sae tells the guard to go into hiding, after learning from the phone recording of Shido and Akechi's plan to kill him and frame Joker. Sae then (we're not totally sure how) helps Joker escape 7. Akechi calls Shido and tells him that the job is done. Shido immediately bribes a coroner into declaring him dead by suicide without ever actually seeing a body, this is mentioned in-game, and once he's declared dead there's no further investigation. Yes, Akechi doesn't "confirm the existence of a body" but he shot him in the head and watched him die, probably good enough for him. 8. Cognitive Joker and the cop don't immediately die when being shot. if they did, this would've ruined the entire plan and Akechi would realize the ruse. shadows and cognitions vaporize into blackness when dying in the metaverse, as we see throughout the game, and we see again with the cop in the explanation scene. when it shows the cop vaporizing to black, that's in the metaverse. then it cuts to Joker in reality, sitting upright and unharmed at the desk, smirking. very confusing presentation 8. Shido declares victory by having his death broadcast to the public and declaring an end to the phantom thieves just my explanation based off what we're given in-game and I think Atlus probably was going for, but the REAL plot hole is that Shido and Akechi, knowing the identity of all the other members, knowing where they go to school, and that they use LeBlanc as a hideout, don't immediately set out to kill the rest of them, who are still very much a liability. all of them should be in hiding in separate safehouses on the outskirts of Tokyo, at least until Shido's palace. Joker who has just faked his death, returns literally a day later to the known phantom thieves hideout (which somehow isn't being monitored and wiretapped), to hang out with his friends who should realistically all be assassination targets. this is hands down the most egregious writing in the game, but everyone hyperfocuses on the interrogation itself while giving this a pass, because the social sim must go on I guess. In conclusion, I think it was a cool plot moment with some pretty heavy handed presentation, but I don't think the interrogation is nearly as bad as the supsension of disbelief that's required immediately after
yeah, i remember thinking that when i got to that part in the game. i didn't have any problems with the actual interrogation scene, but i seriously never understood why none of the other characters weren't immediately arrested or forced into hiding or why they still met up at leblanc or why joker still stayed at leblanc or why sojiro was arrested or SO. MANY. OTHER. CONSEQUENCES of which should have actually triggered. even with this elaborate plan to save joker, that still wouldn't have saved any of the others. i think there are just a lot of people, atlus included, who dont quite understand how serious of a surveillance state modern countries are. and with the police in shido's pocket, he'd have all the rest of the phantom thieves taken care of easily: all loose ends tied up. i enjoyed the game (played royal on steam), in fact it's probably one of my favorite games ever now and it's still my current hyperfixation...but that doesnt mean i will excuse some of it's more egregious writing flaws
So, I never understood this myself but why are the police working for Shido? Like they're individual people and none of them are even concerned about invading a mind dungeon lead by some teenage hitman to arrest a high schooler accused of stealing someones heart? Like what? What dirt does Shido possibly have to control every single police agency in the entirety of Japan?
@@boanoah6362 realistic or not, the game does present Shido as having that level of influence. it would be unlikely that the cops here are being briefed with the truth of it being a palace, the reality of the phantom thieves, etc. I also think they aren't aware when they cross the threshold between reality and palace, as was the case for the interrogation room trick. They could've been told there's a bomb threat or terrorist suspect at a casino, and mobilized the same response without having to reveal the truth
Akechi wanted the cops body to be found, to frame waffles for the murder suicide. The real plothole is that no one confirmed the existence of the body, or tried to clean them up since you can't leave 2 corpses rotting in an interrogation room.
fr, i was sat there through the whole rant like "why do you think they put the gun in his hand?" he obviously intended for someone unrelated to the whole shido thing to find and deal with the bodies, not his concern.
I think it’s pretty well explained by Sae saying that she made sure there wasn’t a way to trace him to the morgue, pretty reasonable to assume that includes the body cleanup
nobody tried to clean up because the murders took place in the metaverse, where shadows and cognitive forms evaporate into blackness when being killed. we are actually shown this just before Joker smirks in the scene explaining the interrogation, the cop's body vapes into darkness. so despite getting shot in the head, he doesn't immediately die while Akechi is still in the room when it shows the cop's body on the floor vaping on the ground, that's in the metaverse, then it cuts to Joker sitting unharmed at the desk smirking, which is in reality. the presentation is pretty confusing that being said, even if the bodies didn't evaporate, that's not a concern because it's the metaverse and not reality. Akechi thinks the job's done, so he tells Shido, Shido bribes/coerces the coroner to declare a suicide without ever seeing a body (this is directly alluded to), and once a coroner has "seen the body" and determined cause of death, supposedly, they close the case on it... yes, they didn't go back to "confirm the existence" but Akechi was there and shot him in the head, that's probably good enough for him. This is just the likely explanation that I think Atlus was going for, that leaves the fewest plot holes. the REAL plot hole is that they don't immediately move to kill the rest of the phantom thieves, who they know their identities, where they go to school, and know LeBlanc is their hideout, yet Joker comes back to living there literally the next day. Joe just breezes past this without questioning it too. they should all be in hiding, probably in separate safe houses outside of Tokyo, until Shido's palace but I think most people just give this a pass bc social sim must continue at all costs
Well it's not an interrogation room, it's a secret underground cell kept secure by corrupt cops, they could literally just leave the bodies there without issue.
@@meltbeamIkr, Shido and Akechi only seem to care about getting rid of Joker but not the other Phantom Thieves, which is a strange logic but maybe the writers are going for Akechi and Shido being overly confident, especially Akechi, he seems to think that with the leader of the Phantom Thieves gone the rest of the members will be running around like headless chickens, powerless to fight back against him and Shido.
Re: Plot Hole - My understanding is that Aketchi placed the gun in your hand to frame you for a murder-suicide. It's part of his plan for the bodies to be found, right? Some cop walks in, goes "Oh shit!" and tells everyone you killed the guard and then yourself. And Shido's already bribed the coroner who would be called in to inspect the bodies, and the game tells us he never actually saw them because his conclusion was set in stone beforehand. So I guess the real plot hole is the coroner never needing to interact with our dead body, even just to keep up appearances? Have I got that all right?
additionally the report only receded to jokers body; the cops body woudlve never been buried and their family would've never had a funeral and despite the fact that the death of a cop is a big deal there is next to no mention of it
The plot hole is that IF Akechi's plan went through, there is now two rotting corpses right there that need to be disposed of and no one ever apparently went to dispose of them, just leaving two dead bodies in an interrogation room for the rest of all time. If anyone had went to go dispose of the bodies, they would find out there is no corpse to dispose of and thus Akechi would figure out he didn't actually kill Joker.
There's 3 scenarios: Scenario 1: Akechi waits for the bodies to be discovered before declaring Joker dead. This obviously isn't the case since the bodies would never have been discovered due to the PT's plans. Scenario 2: Akechi has the coroner pre-emptively declare Joker dead, then sends someone to clean up the bodies. Whoever cleaned up the bodies would report that they were missing to Akechi, and then the PTs get found out. Scenario 3: same as scenario 2 but the bodies are left there forever and the cell (or more like the entire wing) is never used again. There's literally no reason why Akechi would choose this over disposing of the bodies though. The plot hole isn't even impossible to explain away - maybe Sae encountered the janitor on the way back and convinced them to report a successful task and then go hiding or something. It's just there's no explanation explicitly given in game for the whole body disposal thing.
With worst scene in the game what do you mean? Is it the twist or the engine room scene? I don’t think either one is that bad honestly, he didn’t explained it here so I have no idea why he thinks the engine room scene was bad. I mean sure the phantom thieves could’ve beaten the crap out of those enemies but it’s implied all the palace is trying to kill Akechi and that he can barely move (although it would be much better if the game addressed that explicitly) so I think it ok for him to do something nice and having them leave instead of risking to get hurt since he knows he’s not going to get out alive (all the palace wants him dead as that alarm triggered).
@@archivist_13 oh you were joking then, yeah it’s a failed comic scene, they wanted to lighten up the tone using Ryuji as a comic relief right away (there were a couple of serious scenes in a row so I can see why) but it’s just the girls beating the crap out of him for no reason.
Shido just really doesn't work as a villain to me, the guy's whole thing is controlling public perception to gain power in the metaverse but he's so openly evil and unlikable it just doesn't add up. You'd think someone obsessed with controlling cognition would either be a great actor or very skilled at manipulation but he's neither. The spark of Joker's arc is him getting drunk and beating a woman in public, the next time you see him he's being a shithead about stealing an elevator after which his next seen is being a prick and threatening teenagers when surrounded by bystanders... The guy is less subtle than my Grandma gumming a cob of corn on church.
Yeah I'm honestly not sure why they didn't have Shido be the charismatic politician-type publically and only show his cracks in his palace/scenes where he's in private. They want you to believe that every member of the public is totally taken in by him, but they don't really sell it. If he wasn't so comically evil in every previous interaction, the scene with him and Akechi in the office going over their Super Evil Plan might have at least had some impact as a reveal, but as it stands, it just reiterates information the player already knows (something Persona 5 does a LOT imo, even compared to previous entries). I honestly thought there was going to be a reveal at some point that Shido was controlling the masses' cognition (similar to P4's fog affecting how people acted) to get them to vote for him/overlook his obvious unlikability/encourage their bloodthirstiness over Okumura and then the Phantom Thieves, but even though the characters comment on an unusual response from the public, this doesn't really seem to be the case? Especially with what we're given in Royal
@@Flameclaw123This just reminds me how they had a whole cognition manipulation plot line set up with Wakaba, and just went absolutely nowhere with it. Shido is just such a stupid mastermind villain, like how do you go from the conspiracy theory level craziness that was Futaba's arc to such a goofy finale that was Shido's?
Loving the series but I was a bit disappointed the part where Akechi says "You're just some criminal trash living in an attic" was not included, that was my favorite part of the Stream
This part will immediately pick up after the events of Part 6; recommend you rewatch the last chapter of Part 6 to situate yourself. There will also not be a Part Q&A comment for this part; I anticipate the next part to be out tomorrow as long as I can touch up the last bits of Part 8 by 2pm CST tomorrow.
1:55:49 this moment really shows that the game didn't communicate well how much it depends on knowing Carl Jung and the collective unconscious. This game isn't saying that everyone is a good Person at heart. What the phantom thieves are doing is pushing outliers back into the collective unconscious and destroying their destorted view. People like shido are being forced to experience what they are doing with the moral sensibility of the general public or rather the collective minds. They are forced to face what they made out of themselves through the lense of others.
The whole Akechi thing doesn't bother me that much (the Shido palace part), but I can see how it's not that great. I only played Royal, and it is done very well there because the moment is actually meaningful because Akechi has an actual confidante. I'm not even including third semester stuff either. Akechi is one of my favourite characters and I think the Shido palace part is masterful, but that is only with the much needed context to his character that Royal supplies.
@@Zonedoutallthetime he doesnt jump to 6, he has auto level ups before hes just incredibly obvious and the twist isn't supposed to be about akechi being the culprit but about how the thieves knew
1:56:11 had me laughing out loud yet again. I love these videos so much, the editing is amazing and I'm in awe of the effort it must have taken and your attention to detail. I've really been dragging out watching this one and will probably drag out the next one too just so they can last longer, but really, these videos are so well done!
This is incredible. I had no idea Joeseph was so entertaining to watch stream. You and the other abridged channels are doing God's work, this has been an incredibly fun ride.
The plothole is actually part of the story, and is explained later on. If the scooby gang doesn't change the heart fast enough, Akechi will learn about missing bodies. Even Joe says "he doesn't know... yet". The time given might be a bit much, but still. They are on a timer, and they know it.
58:50 Haru was the only girl I experimented to see how she took Rejection, IT WAS SO CRUEL. 1:02:40 I CAN'T WATCH THIS HAPPEN AGAIN. 1:03:15 IT'S SO CRUEL.
14:22 When I write, scenes to explain things to the audience can be hard. But here are my techniques. 1. Sometimes it doesn't need to be explained. Leave some room for mystery. But in this case, how Akechi has been operating is pretty important for the audience to know. 2. Conflict. Conflict is what makes things engaging. Here I would have Akechis conflict with shido be shown off. Shido discredits Akechis work, then Akechi gets mad and says all the stuff he's done to prove a point. I literally came up with that in 5 seconds. Scenes like this are bad and easily fixed
Watching this has made me realize that I did not upgrade my confidants nearly as much as other people when I played this game. Maybe that's why it seemed so brutally difficult.
1:55:45 I’m late to the party but I think that the idea the game is communicating is that there is a GENUINE person deep inside of everyone capable of taking responsibility deep inside if they are willing to cut the bs and illusions they build up around the narrative built by their ego. A lot of Freud shit I’m too drunk to really care about right now. Man of answers, great editing btw this abridged series is a genuinely great watch
11:30 The reason why I think this is actually pretty ok is that Shido was in charge of dealing with the body and the fake death certificate. I honestly think you could’ve added some lines about: 1- Shido was in charge of having the body cleaned 2- there was no investigation and a lot of chaos due to the lack of protocol meaning different people could’ve handled the body 3- the one sent by Shido to clean everything was confused but then said it was the police who came first and cleaned that, Shido couldn’t double check and didn’t say anything to Akechi until he came back to double check himself and had to investigate all the way until realizing the possibility they tricked him. Akechi isn’t in charge and he’s supposed to communicate with Shido the least. The latter has to deal with falsifying everything about the hitman and removing a body from the guard as Akechi guaranteed everything went smoothly. This means it’s likely for the cleaner to be confused but reporting the room is now clear, this would’ve raised suspicion only on Akechi who found that a few days later. The thing is Shido had no way to double check as the morgue was inaccessible due to Sae’s work and since there were no investigation handling the scene could’ve been done by different people in the police other than the one Shido sent afterwards, again no way of double checking it for sure without seeing the body and that wasn’t a priority as Shido knew his hitman said he shot him in the face. (He doesn’t work with the metaverse so he can’t understand the plan well) That’s not really that important to the phantom thieves as all they needed was Akechi to be fooled for about an hour and Sae to protect Joker. Then Akechi could’ve not use that plan anymore and should’ve waited to ambush them in the metaverse anyway.
2 years late to join the Akechi-corpse talk, but I still think Joe misunderstood the game. Akechi would not actually send anyone to clean up the bodies. He set it up as a murder-suicide so that when the police discovered it, they would clean the corpses up. As Nijima mentioned, the coroner didn't even look at the room, and the police, who are supposed to clean up the corpses, sees the room is clear, so they assume that Akechi cleaned it up already since they are taking orders from Mr. Big Bad. I think that was the direction the game was going in. Probably if someone looks into it, they will probably notice something is off, but as Nijima said, the police are confused right now presumably because the Big Bad keeps them on a need to know basis.
LIIIIIIVE IN IGNORANCE AND PUUURCHASE YOUR HAPPINESS The way Shido crushes Haru and says "Making the mother of all omelettes here" is one of the best edits you have ever done
It is contrived, but you could chalk up the "plot hole" to something like this: Person goes to clean up bodies hired by Akechi's accomplice (avoiding spoilers) and realizes there are no bodies and it is assumed to be a miscommunication which is contrived but could work. Another possibility is that it was the guard outside the cell's (the one that Sae convinced to run away) job to deal with it, but he ran away. Since he never reported back they probably assumed he did the job as Akechi reported the plan as a success? I suppose that would also be the miscommunication argument?? I think the former is more likely. It is contrived, but it would explain the plot hole.
I don't understand the common assumption that they would hire someone to clean up the bodies in the first place. They want the bodies to be found, so that it makes news. It makes sense to me that it goes like this: Akechi "leaves the bodies" in the room, expecting them to be found quickly -> Akechi + Shido bribe the coroner to rule it as a suicide, expecting the bodies to have already been found -> Coroner is never given a body, doesn't question it and just follows orders, ruling a suicide -> The coroner's report is put out so the police department assumes that the body was already found and put in the morgue -> Sae makes sure no one snoops in the morgue Honestly, I think this line of events makes way more sense and is more intuitive than the one where Akechi/Shido hire a clean up crew. Why would they do that when they can leave it to a third party and keep up the appearance of a natural discovery? Absolutely zero need for further interference from them (assuming that the bodies are actually there, which Akechi is absolutely convinced that they are). The only part that's slightly confusing is that the cop that was supposedly murdered couldn't have possibly ever been identified as dead, and that never sets off Akechi's suspicions. I guess Akechi/Shido just never tell the coroner about the cop and assume that it would be handled by the police department. Then it never gets mentioned on the news (because no dead cop was found) and Akechi isn't suspicious because he's so sure that Joker is dead, and just assumes that the news of the Phantom Thief's suicide overshadowed the cop's murder and didn't put much thought into it.
The problem I think comes from having to make a leap in logic due to what we hear about the coroner. So what happens is: Akechi makes the murder suicide scene and then leaves waiting for the body to be discovered. He (and everyone else) would expect the next guard on shift to turn up and discover the bodies eventually. These bodies would be sent to the morgue for the coroner to inspect. However the coroner just sends off the death certificates as soon as he hears from Akechi the job is done. So no one is going to think much about who discovered the bodies and took them to the morgue because by neccessity someone must have already done that if the coroner was able to inspect the bodies and write the death certificate. Since Akechi would assume the coroner would at least wait to see the bodies before submitting the fake death certificates even he would be fooled into believing the plan succeded. With regards to the cop being murdered you have to remember that Sae told him to go into hiding. So he runs off and never returns to his job. He would later see that the news has reported that he was killed by Joker. Everyone would assume his body is sitting in the morgue because the coroner must have seen his body to write the death certficate.
@@poudink5791 well, they clearly exist on console too, but the accessibility of pc modding tools is far superior to that of consoles, it's no coincidence that mods for any game sky rocket in popularity as soon as they appear on pc. We did have mods for P5 that were cool on ps3, less and more basic mods on P5R due to PS4 being harder to hack, but now that they are on pc, you see even more advanced mods being made
Talking about the whole 'what about the bodies' thing; Akechi wouldn't have _needed_ to clean the bodies up, or send someone else to do it. The Whole Point was for the bodies to be found! It couldn't exactly be passed off as a murder-suicide if the bodies were hidden, hence why he *wouldn't have any reason to need to know if the bodies were dealt with or not.* From Akechi's POV: he killed his target and the guard, the bodies were probably moved by the police, the coroner faked a suicide report, and everything worked as planned. From the coroner's POV: he was paid to make a fake suicide report, and did so. Nothing else. From the public's POV: the leader of the phantom thieves committed suicide. *Note that news reports never mentioned the guard.* It was reported as a suicide, not a murder-suicide. (I am somewhat surprised that this didn't tip off Akechi and/or Shido that something was amiss) TL;DR- Akechi had no reason to check in the bodies, and there was so much confusion and double-crossing going on that no one noticed Waffles escape with Sae. Edit: "The fate of lazy writing" (cue ol' yaldy laughing in the background) Edit 2, electric boogaloo: "Akechi just get expelled" fucking BROKE me lmfao
Yeah I’ve tried and still don’t really understand Joe’s issue with akechi and the bodies. I think the whole plot was presented in a way to shock rather than explain, and so it all feels much more convoluted than it actually is. It all works well honestly.
He should know not to annoy a girl with an axe. I'm trully devastated this didnt turn into a harem run. Let's keep our hopes up with Persona 6 someday.
I think I can explain the plot hole. By the time anyone in the police dept. went to check the interrogation room, the false death report would've already been made public and so they could assume the bodies have already been cleaned up when they find it empty. We already know Shindo controlled the investigation so it isn't a stretch to assume that he would've taken care of that as well and nobody would ask too many questions.
Watching this made me realise how wild this part of the game is. I’ve only played royal, so to me this was just like weird section of the game, not the actual ending. Thankfully third semester now exists 😅 I love Akechi but that engine room scene is an awful send off.
I know this comment is very late to the whole beginning discussion but if Akechi thought he killed Joker in the real world he has to at some point realize he is in the metaverse then question how the hell he got there. I know you guys focus on the bodies but he would have to realize after walking out of the interrogation room something is clearly wrong. I love the playthrough, love the content, and love the game. The rides been fun. Lol you made me have to think about the plot and not just be a fan boy xD
The only explanation of the bodies problem is that the police, and akechi firmly believe that there are two rotting corpses in the ultra secret interrogation room. Even with shido and akechi influence they will have to clean the room and then discover there’s no bodies it’s empty. Probably one of the biggest contrivance or plot hole in the entire game.
God the (non)harem arc is poping Ann's romance was handled very awkwardly and I think they should've made her not romancable with that storyline. Would've been a nice twist, that the Lovers Arcana is the only one you can't romance (Sae& Velvet room attendees don't count) I love the chronological timeline with Joe's streaming lore. With Haru sowing the seeds of interest for GREAT VEGETABLES. Absolute queen
My headcanon for Waffles is that after he died in the metaverse, part of his personality died with him, and that explains his change in behavior vis a vis Ann and Haru
Still kinda bummed about how bad akechi is handled on P5 vanilla. He is better in Royal, but only really gets "redeemed" during the third semester. He's a weird character that could have worked but just didn't
what if the coroner never went there to begin with, he'd had a flat tyre on his way to the station so he arrived there late and upon entering the room he was like "oh shit there are no bodies shit it's all my fault" and then he was like "nah I'm not getting paid enough for this" so he makes a call and says everything is ok. akechi wouldn't bother with such details since in his head he personally shot waffles and watched him die. now that's what I call mental gymnastics
That's not your theory, nor that's a mental gymnastics, it's literally said in this same video by Sae on 8:14 Coroner NEVER was on the scene. He NEVER saw the bodies. That was explicitly said. I don't understand why all commenters collectively forgot about it lol.
There are no plotholes with the bodies. 8:14 Sae: That coroner didn't take one look at the scene. So Akechi thought that coroner will deal with the bodies (which he should've done), but corrupt coroner decided to just fake death certificate and not even bother himself with looking at the crime scene, thinking that someone else will dispose bodies. So: 1. Akechi thought that his corrupt coroner will deal with bodies. 2. Policemen were certain that coroner WILL deal with bodies since it's his job. 3. Coroner thought that he can just release fake certificate, and some other people will deal with bodies, especially since it's a delicate matter. Everybody who sees plothole here, including Joe, seems to completely ignore that Sae line about coroner, I don't know why. With it, everything is safe and sound.
A coroner doesn't handle body disposal or transportation though - which is Joe's issue, they're just investigators. I assumed the same thing when I played, but I guess I can see his side
Akechi wanted it to look like Joker killed the cop and himself. That's why he left Joker and the cop's bodies behind - so the police would find them. He didn't need to clean up the crime scene and he didn't need to send anyone to do it for him. He intentionally left the bodies behind. The coroner didn't check the bodies because the coroner assumed Akechi did the deed and reported it as a murder/suicide. So the coroner didn't even notice that there were no bodies - he just reported whatever Akechi told him. And the police never saw the bodies because, of course, Akechi was in the Metaverse. There were no bodies to be found. So the police either believed the coroner's report and assumed that Joker died and was taken away, or they didn't want to admit that they lost the prisoner and kept their mouths shut. The plot twist DOES make sense, the game just does an awful job of explaining how and why the Phantom Thieves got away with it. That, and you have to be willing to accept how freakishly lucky they are that the coroner didn't bother to check the bodies - if he had, he would have told Akechi right away that the bodies were missing.
Judging by the aspects of both Haru and Rise that really devolved Joe into simp mode, I feel like it's innevitable that he's gonna like Sumi too when he eventually gets around to Royal. The real question is if he's gonna wait for her romance unlock or settle for the floof.
If I’ve got it right, the plot hole Joe’s pointing out isn’t really a plot hole but it IS a massive plot CONTRIVANCE. 1. The police officers. It’s not implausible to think Shido has that many cops on his payroll considering his position. They might not know about the metaverse but they don’t need to for the mission. Just capture Joker. It is an over exaggeration on the game’s part but nothing that can’t be explained. 2. This is really small but Akechi didn’t kill shadows, he killed cognitive fakes. Joker doesn’t even have a shadow since shadows turn into personas post awakening. 3. Akechi’s two outfits. Akechi’s just an exception. We never really learn the rules of the metaverse from an omniscient source. Just what the Phantom Thieves saw. Joker can wield multiple personas because of the wild card. Akechi is another similar exception to the rules that the Thieves had placed. Someone with a two faced nature can have 2 different awakenings, one for each nature. Two awakenings makes two costumes. So the fact that he has two isn’t really anything too much to go off of. As for the Phantom Thieves, whether they assumed that exception existed or not, it doesn’t matter. They knew that Akechi was a persona user with connections to the mental shutdown case. That’s reason enough. Even by Morgana’s dialogue in Shido’s palace ‘Even his appearance was a fake’, you could say that the Phantom Thieves weren’t completely sure about the black mask thing. They did know that Akechi was someone who had played a part in the mental shutdown case, but not necessarily the black mask. Now, the big one. 4. THE BODIES. First things first, Akechi does not need to clean the bodies. The death was a murder suicide so the expected thing is that a cop would find it and call someone to take it away. Anyone with affiliation to the case would know about the death certificate and the murder suicide and seeing that there are no bodies, the cop would assume that they’ve already been taken away. For Akechi’s view, his job is done. The rest is up to the paid coroner to pass the certificate and regular people to put it into the morgue. The people who would put the body into the morgue would not need to be on Shido’s payroll. They have a death certificate and 2 bodies. They would just put them in the morgue. However, there are no bodies. The cop who would normally see the bodies would assume that they’ve been cleaned up. And the person who would put the bodies in the morgue would also assume that they’ve already been put into the morgue by someone else since the death certificate exists. And since no one put it in, we have the desired outcome. Two bodies never being placed in a morgue since they never existed. Unless I’m missing something, this is not a plot hole. However, it is a MASSIVE plot contrivance and Joe is right to complain about it. He’s just complaining about the wrong thing. I had to go through mental gymnastics to figure out an explanation. A player who’s playing this like Joe, that being a person who pays a lot of attention to the game but doesn’t try to analyse every single minute detail to pull out an explanation would have this problem with the game.
Regarding what you said about Akechi, the game actually confirms that he is a wild card like Joker through the dialogue before and during his boss fight, and also in Royal's third semester. Both Joker and Akechi are the "players" in Yaldabaoth's game, so they have similar abilities. The difference between them is that Joker nurtured his bonds with others, thus granting him access to many different personas (it's why confidant rank empowers personas and vice-versa) while Akechi remained alone, and so his wild card manifested instead in the shape of this split personality because those are the only real connections Akechi has: to his 2 different sides. It's true that the metaverse and personas don't have super defined rules, but the persona lore does make it very clear that more than 1 persona = wildcard, regardless of the specifics.
If the cop cleaning up the bodies was in on it, then surely they would have to have been picked specifically for the job, which means that they would be suspicious that it was already complete.
@@veras7927 There would be no reason for the cop who finds out the bodies to be in on it. Hell, it’d probably be better since it leaves less loose ends according to Shido and Akechi. I’m not really defending it, the plan is still very contrived, it’s just not a plot hole. From the way I see it at least.
@@anastasishatzakis5752 But if the cop who came to check on the bodies was not in on it, how would they know that there were bodies that were supposed to be there to begin with? There's no reason they would go to check in the first place, and the bodies would've been left to rot until they were found by sheer coincidence (of course, there were never any bodies to clean up, but akechi doesn't know that). Either that or the mortician who forged the death certificate asked an unrelated cop to do a cleanup in the cell. But that's also obviously wrong because for the mortician to declare the body dead and file a report, they would have already removed the body from the site of death to examine it.
@@veras7927 No one would walk in the room for any reason until someone told them to? The cameras would supposedly have a dead body shown. As for how Akechi wouldn’t be shown on the cameras, they would definitely be turned off for a period of time for the assassination. There are no bodies to be found but from Akechi’s perspective, a random person would walk in, find the bodies and get someone to clean them up. The bodies would then go to the mortician who would put them in the morgue with the death certificate. This is a pretty rushed response to be fair.
i was scratching my head over the 2 body thing too so here's how i coped with it after like 7 playthroughs, the police who were in the know thought akechi would kill joker. joker's guard was still alive so the police didn't think to check. because he skipped town akechi thought he was dead. nothing seemed out of the ordinary here. assuming the yakuza dispose of the bodies because they're shido's cleaners, then akechi and the police really don't want to talk with the yakuza and vice versa because of how secretive this event is, and they especially don't want to get caught so close to shido's election. so like joe said, a guard checked in and thought the cleaners dealt with it already and told the coroner it's all done. the cleaners still waiting on the body didn't really want to contact shido to avoid drama before the election. either way, nobody cross checked anybody's fact, so joker just got away with it. it definitely requires a lot of mental gymnastics and i think it's one of the game's plot holes for sure
Don't see how it's a plothole. Akechi believes the bodies will be found by the police department and tells the coroner to rule a suicide. Coroner believes the bodies to be dealt with already and rules a suicide. Police department sees that the death has been ruled as a suicide and thus believe that the body has already been moved to the morgue. Sae "confirms" this to the police department and prevents anyone from snooping. Who is expecting to find a body and are surprised when there is none? Where is the plothole?
Came back here after playing Persona 5 royal (i didnt maxed out Maruki so just the vanilla part) And holy, royal changes alot the game (no so much the story tho)
It's always disappointing when the streamer you like doesn't get the same experience from the game that you did. Akechi was my favorite part: evil laughter and all. I was hoping to see someone else share that feeling. Joe's not in the wrong or anything for not liking a part of a video game that I did, though. I just wish it had gone differently.
Im just going to say this, there are ways to explain the plothole but the game really needs to do it by itself Ex: akechi on the surface is just like a damn junior detective more than likely worrying about the bodies is just not even within his scope of duties and some joe schmoe dealing with clean up and fabrication saw the body gone and assumed someone else took care of it already. After all its not going to be examined and its fabricated anyway so maybe made some "eh fuck it" decision. There are ways to explain it just none of them good In fact the police confronting sae makes more sense since after being arrested hed now be prosecuted so it could even be that sae covered it up
Why would he want to clean up the bodies? They were supposed to be found, so that the suicide makes the news, hence the need to bribe the coroner. The "way to explain it" is way more intuitive than any scenario with a plot hole in it. Akechi and Shido trying to clean up the bodies themselves is the explanation that makes no sense.
The plan is very over complicated, and a problem I have is the risk reward. Sure it worked but the risk is high. Why not immediately go after Akechi once you have suspicions of him, then actually steal Saes heart. Both problems solved but way simpler with way less that could go wrong
Joe and I had the same experience with waifus in this game. We both started out hating one of the girls, ended up dating Hifumi, only to later realize that we actually really like the girl we hated but didn't want to make Joker into a scumbag cheater. Only I switched to best girl Futaba instead of also very good choice Haru.
The bodies are cognitive, but aketchi thinks that there are two real human corpses, and his inside man the mortician should go pretend to determine the cause of death and then dispose of those bodies so that nobody can double check them. The fact that the mortician says that he checked the bodies and that the cause of death was murder suicide, when there would be no bodies to pretend to study, is the plot hole. The mortician should have thought that something was up after he went to pretend to check the bodies and dispose of them, and didn't have any bodies to pretend to check or to dispose of.
@@koalabro6118 Why would he have to go to the bodies to pretend to check them? He could just write up that murder suicide report and be done with it. It'd be easy to assume somebody already dealt with the bodies so he only had to write up the false report. Though the guy who got sent to clean up the body and finds nothing and then says nothing sounds like peak bureaucratic incompetence
@@koalabro6118I'm late but is it possible the translation mixed up coroner and mortician? They mentioned the bodies were meant to be in the mourge, perhaps the 'coroner' was meant to pick them up but assumed someone else did it and was already paid off to rule it a murder suicide?
I know the gamblers fallacy thing was last video, but I've been thinking about it and I'm not quite sure I understand it. I know I could just go to the Wikipedia page and it would probably answer my questions, but I think it's more fun to write out my thought process. Using a coin flip was the easiest way I could think about this, so I'll just use that. I understand that the odds are 50/50 every time, but if you flip tails 19 times in a row, wouldn't the 50/50 odds be overruled by the probability of hitting tails for the 20th time in a row? Theres a .00001% of that happening. So, heads from a statistical standpoint is "due"... right? The gamblers fallacy existing in the first place means I'm wrong, bc smarter people than me have tackled the subject. But I'm not sure why I'm wrong exactly.
It's unlikely to get tails that many times in a row, BUT the odds of each coin flip are completely independent from the previous ones. It's still a 50/50 chance you'll land on tails.
funny how yusuke and haru were both disliked by joe initially, but 180 into being his favorites
True, though not TOO unlikely from a statistical standpoint, since he defaults to dislike at first most of the time.
It’s also funny how Yosuke from Persona 4 was initially the only character Joe liked, but then became his least favourite character.
@@alfie4234 funny and understandable
Yknow, if it was 360, it'd make a full circle
I think Haru is the result of joe being influenced by the Great Vegetable himself.
Haru: **Feeds you Elephant dung coffee**
Waffles: "Ah yes, _Secret Polygamy Time."_
"secret polygamy" is a good way to say affair
Hell yeah polygamy
Eggstra marital sex
42:19 yes this is referencing the awfully written scene where akechi and shido just outright state what they've done in an evil manner but i also need to state that i swear to god half the time the writers dont know how to write akechi as actually smart, so he'll just state the obvious or an observation the player has already made
The worst part is you could cut that scene out entirely and it changes nothing.
Any player with half a brain that’s been paying attention will understand what Akechi has been up to the instant he betrays you. Then he mentions that Shido is his father and the last piece will fall into place.
@@SolarArmadillo I'm willing to cut the writers a bit of slack because of the way P5 is structured. There could be any number of side stories going on at once, between the main story, the confidants, and Mementos requests, not to mention the game is so damn long; it's reasonable to think players may have been struggling to keep track, or may have forgotten some key story beats. While some flashbacks (like the Makoto 'useless' one) happen so quickly that it's probably unnecessary, it's fine to have a quick "hahahehehoohoohoo we are the bad guys and this is how we do bad guy things" summary at the end of the big plot twist just to ensure that everyone is on the same page.
Vanilla akechi wasn’t great honestly. Much more coherent and subtle in third semester
@@PlayMadness I think I'll always find it condescending/demeaning (or just annoying, after a point). I understand the perspective, because I play Persona games over the span of months (and years, although I tend to restart if that happens). And Persona 5 especially just comes across super heavy-handed. They have that story section in the settings, just remind people it exists and maybe flesh it out a little when you see a big time-gap in between their play sessions (because the telemetry for that is being tracked already, and games have used that since pokemon FireRed).
@@マリー-v4p vanilla akechi was great in royal, due to the social link. Words like how mona says he doesn't really hate joker and joker calling out about akechi's glove are extremely good touches.
I completely understand not listening to the outcry from chat that "you have me" locks you into dating Ann since that option is so fucking mundane and reasonble for a friend, like Waffles, to say to Ann.
Edit: especially since this is his first run through the game and he only had experience with the confusing and restricted confession responses a while back in the playthrough, he seems a little forgetful-ish at times.
Ann’s confidant line in general is pretty garbage. Easily the worst of the P Thieves.
It feels like they weren't prepared for you to ACTUALLY pick her and were just expecting you to hand her off to Ryuji. She even clings onto him during the beach trip if I remember correctly.
Canon relationship pick feels like Futaba because her very existence is fanservice incarnate, followed by probably Makoto since she's Sae's sister and pretty plot relevant
@@PrismTheKid there's absolutely no canon relationship, I really don't like the conversation around that idea because it ruins the point 😭 if you wanna talk about which ones were pushed most, I def would not say futaba. Yoshizawa, Ann, and makoto, in that order, is what I would say is most pushed
@@PrismTheKidbro aint cookin shiiiit
I dunno, the "I should choose my words carefully" warning right before the choice makes it pretty obvious which one is the romantic option. I agree that in a vaccum that response doesn't sound particularly romantic at all, but with that clear warning directly before, you should know.
Man, Royal really did a number on Akechi’s character. In base P5 he’s easily the worst part of the game for me, and watching this playthrough just reminded me of why. It’s crazy, too, bc in royal I actually really like him.
I didn't play P5 OG. So I never had this version of Akechi. I did initially hate him, but as soon as he reveals he doesn't just look like Light Yagami he IS Light Yagami I was completely on board. Besides Yusuke he was my favorite party member.
His act 3 stuff is so so good in P5R
I've only played P5R so you could not imagine the confusion when I found out that everything I liked about Akechi's character was Royal exclusive content
Haru is so damn powerful to convince Joe to dump Hifumi.
She’s by far the sweetest character in all of Persona, also she’s adorable, cute and rich not to mention she’s an absolute beast in combat. Also she falls in love so much with Joker she gets so upset when you friendzone her she is like “sorry let’s meet another time now I have to go cry on my pillow all night long”.
I think almost all of us have reevaluated her after her appearance in some of the worst dumbest scenes in the whole game because she’s just too nice to have around to treat her bad.
I like the mementos dialogue where she says she likes committing murder
@roberthouse7040 that lines sound so genuine, she just enjoy throwing her axe around as well as crippling and blowing up things. That’s part of her charm. She’s probably the fiercest fighter not counting mr black mask and that’s actually completely fine in the metaverse creating a good contrast, you would never expect someone as nice as her doing that. I guess it’s truly her anti-stress after all.
@@edwardsuouso, Haru is good at blowing things, eh?
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Haru's is definitely the most underrated girl in P5
I think she would've been as popular as Naoto if she was just a little bit sprinkled through the first 2/3 of the game
Maybe noticing what's going on or her father's company be more involved with the early cases
As is she comes so late in the game, most first time players would've already have a girl by that point (guess they gave Haru's screentime to Kasumi in Royal)
But I don't think anyone can actually dislike Haru, she has so much going on and she gets shit done in her Confidant. Also she almost openly pursued Joker and you basically had to reject her, non of the other romances do that.
She is super kind, but not a pushover and she takes initiative
It's so damn bad for me, my favorites, naoto and kasumi (and haru if kasumi wasn't a thing) only end up as choices so late in the game I don't get to see most of the funny mid game events with them
It's funny that the single digit IQ phantom thieves were able to pick up on the pancake comment right away when usually it takes them days to realize that Sakura is bosses last name, or "this is what's known as hacking" there are countless examples of their skills being the most high density material on Earth but this one time Ryuji, Ann, and Morgana were able to pick up on that immediately.
Yeah, it's really hard to go along with these guys as master heist planners and brilliant Arsene Lupin-esque masked thieves when Ann and Ryuji are on the team.
They wanted the fun comedic relatability of Persona 4's cast of well-meaning doorstops but also wanted Oceans Eleven and you can't really have both when you're constantly writing about them making blatant mistakes and outing themselves. Suddenly they've got one over on Akechi and it's like they were pretending to be dumb the whole time
@@PrismTheKid I think the Investigation Team is portrayed as far smarter and more level headed then the phantom thieves.
Maybe I only noticed because I played Persona 5 first but there were multiple times when Chie correctly guessed something during their brainstorming sessions.
There was also only one real point in the game in which the team was divided on what they should do and it felt far less forced then the decision to go after Okumura, probably because it was far more serious with a lot of emotional build up, I of course am talking about December 3rd.
Finally and this was what actually started getting me to think about and compare the two teams, the Investigation Team never had any real problem with not getting credit for stopping the murders, they were perfectly content with the police taking all of the credit realizing that it would only cause more trouble for them to be put under suspicion.
When you really compare the two teams it makes you realize that the Phantom Thieves really brought a lot of trouble on themselves by being so immature. That all being said from a meta narrative perspective it is or at least should be theoretically far more interesting for characters to have flaws like this and get over them through character development, it is just that for the Investigation Team, their character development happened within the context of their respective dungeons and social links, and was not part of the plot in the endgame.
The closest thing you get to them having character growth impacted by the endgame is in the conversations directly preceding their third tier awakenings in Golden, in which they compare themselves to the killer they were chasing after having already confronted them.
PS. I am not a big fan of the investigation team's dialogue during their confrontation with the killer and if you look at that in a vacuum I would certainly agree it gives a very poor impression of them as naively hopeful characters, every time I see that scene I find it very frustrating how they choose to respond to the points being made by the killer, who all along was set up as a far more relatable character to anyone in the Team anyway, especially if you are an adult.
I'm pretty sure that only Joker and Morgana picked up on the pancake thing.
I do think it's a bit more reasonable just because Morgana (and potentially Joker) is specifically the one that noticed it. If you could only talk to a select few people and someone joined a conversation referencing something you said, it'd be extremely blatant.
Yes! That's the biggest issue. How did those brainlets manage to fool Akechi? Ryuji is about as smart as a stack of brick, Ann is terrible at acting, Futaba is a hikikomori with nonexistant social skills, and Yusuke is a walking incarnation of maxed out Inland Empire. Makoto and Haru were good enough to lie to Sae, so maybe they could've done it. But everyone was onto Akechi, and there's no way he would fail every spot check for a month.
I'd let the pancake comment slide, though. On a rewatch, it seems that only Morgana noticed it, and for a good reason: he would naturally pay attention to someone other than the three Phantom Thieves referencing something he said. It didn't stand out to us, but it stood out to him. It kind of makes sense - as long as you don't question why Morgana didn't bring it up earlier.
Who knew the world had such wonderous videos
Joe seems confused on some details, so my best timeline of the interrogation scene:
1. the 100+ cops in the metaverse were likely cognitive cops acting on behalf of Akechi, who we've already seen "using palaces for his own purposes" as I think both Madarame and Kaneshiro allude to. Joker gets arrested in the metaverse, transported back across the entrypoint and into the real world investigation room by Akechi.
2. Akechi's plan is to frame the scene as a murder-suicide by placing the gun in your hand, then leaving and having it be someone else's problem to discover. The real world cop guarding the door is an inside man, working for Shido and Akechi. we can also then assume there's no CCTV or they managed to have it erased
3. When Akechi shows up and Sae is startled to see him: he is most likely lying here and hasnt been scheduled to interrogate Joker. Most likely only he, Shido, and the guard know he's there, meaning he doesn't need to answer to anyone after the fact
4. Sae shows the phone to Akechi, and at that moment Futaba hacks it to activate the metanav app, unknowingly transporting them into the metaverse. Akechi then enters the room and shoots a cognitive Joker in the metaverse
5. Akechi unknowingly crosses the entrypoint back into reality when exiting the police station. the entrypoint must be fairly nearby because we see Sae leaving, then returning shortly after to ask the real world guard if he's seen anyone come by, to which he says no
6. Sae tells the guard to go into hiding, after learning from the phone recording of Shido and Akechi's plan to kill him and frame Joker. Sae then (we're not totally sure how) helps Joker escape
7. Akechi calls Shido and tells him that the job is done. Shido immediately bribes a coroner into declaring him dead by suicide without ever actually seeing a body, this is mentioned in-game, and once he's declared dead there's no further investigation. Yes, Akechi doesn't "confirm the existence of a body" but he shot him in the head and watched him die, probably good enough for him.
8. Cognitive Joker and the cop don't immediately die when being shot. if they did, this would've ruined the entire plan and Akechi would realize the ruse. shadows and cognitions vaporize into blackness when dying in the metaverse, as we see throughout the game, and we see again with the cop in the explanation scene. when it shows the cop vaporizing to black, that's in the metaverse. then it cuts to Joker in reality, sitting upright and unharmed at the desk, smirking. very confusing presentation
8. Shido declares victory by having his death broadcast to the public and declaring an end to the phantom thieves
just my explanation based off what we're given in-game and I think Atlus probably was going for, but the REAL plot hole is that Shido and Akechi, knowing the identity of all the other members, knowing where they go to school, and that they use LeBlanc as a hideout, don't immediately set out to kill the rest of them, who are still very much a liability. all of them should be in hiding in separate safehouses on the outskirts of Tokyo, at least until Shido's palace. Joker who has just faked his death, returns literally a day later to the known phantom thieves hideout (which somehow isn't being monitored and wiretapped), to hang out with his friends who should realistically all be assassination targets.
this is hands down the most egregious writing in the game, but everyone hyperfocuses on the interrogation itself while giving this a pass, because the social sim must go on I guess. In conclusion, I think it was a cool plot moment with some pretty heavy handed presentation, but I don't think the interrogation is nearly as bad as the supsension of disbelief that's required immediately after
yeah, i remember thinking that when i got to that part in the game. i didn't have any problems with the actual interrogation scene, but i seriously never understood why none of the other characters weren't immediately arrested or forced into hiding or why they still met up at leblanc or why joker still stayed at leblanc or why sojiro was arrested or SO. MANY. OTHER. CONSEQUENCES of which should have actually triggered. even with this elaborate plan to save joker, that still wouldn't have saved any of the others. i think there are just a lot of people, atlus included, who dont quite understand how serious of a surveillance state modern countries are. and with the police in shido's pocket, he'd have all the rest of the phantom thieves taken care of easily: all loose ends tied up. i enjoyed the game (played royal on steam), in fact it's probably one of my favorite games ever now and it's still my current hyperfixation...but that doesnt mean i will excuse some of it's more egregious writing flaws
I believe it is said somewhere that akechi transported all the cops with him since the transportation isnt limited to numbers
you explained this better in a 5 minute read than the actual game did over an hour lol
So, I never understood this myself but why are the police working for Shido? Like they're individual people and none of them are even concerned about invading a mind dungeon lead by some teenage hitman to arrest a high schooler accused of stealing someones heart? Like what? What dirt does Shido possibly have to control every single police agency in the entirety of Japan?
@@boanoah6362 realistic or not, the game does present Shido as having that level of influence. it would be unlikely that the cops here are being briefed with the truth of it being a palace, the reality of the phantom thieves, etc. I also think they aren't aware when they cross the threshold between reality and palace, as was the case for the interrogation room trick. They could've been told there's a bomb threat or terrorist suspect at a casino, and mobilized the same response without having to reveal the truth
Funnily enough, it was this vid that made me realize that Shido is literally just Armstrong, but worse in every conceivable way.
Akechi wanted the cops body to be found, to frame waffles for the murder suicide. The real plothole is that no one confirmed the existence of the body, or tried to clean them up since you can't leave 2 corpses rotting in an interrogation room.
fr, i was sat there through the whole rant like "why do you think they put the gun in his hand?" he obviously intended for someone unrelated to the whole shido thing to find and deal with the bodies, not his concern.
I think it’s pretty well explained by Sae saying that she made sure there wasn’t a way to trace him to the morgue, pretty reasonable to assume that includes the body cleanup
nobody tried to clean up because the murders took place in the metaverse, where shadows and cognitive forms evaporate into blackness when being killed. we are actually shown this just before Joker smirks in the scene explaining the interrogation, the cop's body vapes into darkness. so despite getting shot in the head, he doesn't immediately die while Akechi is still in the room
when it shows the cop's body on the floor vaping on the ground, that's in the metaverse, then it cuts to Joker sitting unharmed at the desk smirking, which is in reality. the presentation is pretty confusing
that being said, even if the bodies didn't evaporate, that's not a concern because it's the metaverse and not reality. Akechi thinks the job's done, so he tells Shido, Shido bribes/coerces the coroner to declare a suicide without ever seeing a body (this is directly alluded to), and once a coroner has "seen the body" and determined cause of death, supposedly, they close the case on it... yes, they didn't go back to "confirm the existence" but Akechi was there and shot him in the head, that's probably good enough for him.
This is just the likely explanation that I think Atlus was going for, that leaves the fewest plot holes. the REAL plot hole is that they don't immediately move to kill the rest of the phantom thieves, who they know their identities, where they go to school, and know LeBlanc is their hideout, yet Joker comes back to living there literally the next day. Joe just breezes past this without questioning it too. they should all be in hiding, probably in separate safe houses outside of Tokyo, until Shido's palace but I think most people just give this a pass bc social sim must continue at all costs
Well it's not an interrogation room, it's a secret underground cell kept secure by corrupt cops, they could literally just leave the bodies there without issue.
@@meltbeamIkr, Shido and Akechi only seem to care about getting rid of Joker but not the other Phantom Thieves, which is a strange logic but maybe the writers are going for Akechi and Shido being overly confident, especially Akechi, he seems to think that with the leader of the Phantom Thieves gone the rest of the members will be running around like headless chickens, powerless to fight back against him and Shido.
I hope Hifumi was worth breaking Haru's heart you bastard
Re: Plot Hole - My understanding is that Aketchi placed the gun in your hand to frame you for a murder-suicide. It's part of his plan for the bodies to be found, right? Some cop walks in, goes "Oh shit!" and tells everyone you killed the guard and then yourself. And Shido's already bribed the coroner who would be called in to inspect the bodies, and the game tells us he never actually saw them because his conclusion was set in stone beforehand. So I guess the real plot hole is the coroner never needing to interact with our dead body, even just to keep up appearances?
Have I got that all right?
I think I might have a decent explanation to the plot hole that makes it a plot contrivance. There aren’t too many comments, you can probably find it.
Let the funny video be funny ffs
additionally the report only receded to jokers body; the cops body woudlve never been buried and their family would've never had a funeral and despite the fact that the death of a cop is a big deal there is next to no mention of it
The plot hole is that IF Akechi's plan went through, there is now two rotting corpses right there that need to be disposed of and no one ever apparently went to dispose of them, just leaving two dead bodies in an interrogation room for the rest of all time. If anyone had went to go dispose of the bodies, they would find out there is no corpse to dispose of and thus Akechi would figure out he didn't actually kill Joker.
There's 3 scenarios:
Scenario 1: Akechi waits for the bodies to be discovered before declaring Joker dead. This obviously isn't the case since the bodies would never have been discovered due to the PT's plans.
Scenario 2: Akechi has the coroner pre-emptively declare Joker dead, then sends someone to clean up the bodies. Whoever cleaned up the bodies would report that they were missing to Akechi, and then the PTs get found out.
Scenario 3: same as scenario 2 but the bodies are left there forever and the cell (or more like the entire wing) is never used again. There's literally no reason why Akechi would choose this over disposing of the bodies though.
The plot hole isn't even impossible to explain away - maybe Sae encountered the janitor on the way back and convinced them to report a successful task and then go hiding or something. It's just there's no explanation explicitly given in game for the whole body disposal thing.
Good video, the rejection arc, the Senator Armstrong fight, the worst scene in the game, all of it was done beautifully
With worst scene in the game what do you mean? Is it the twist or the engine room scene?
I don’t think either one is that bad honestly, he didn’t explained it here so I have no idea why he thinks the engine room scene was bad. I mean sure the phantom thieves could’ve beaten the crap out of those enemies but it’s implied all the palace is trying to kill Akechi and that he can barely move (although it would be much better if the game addressed that explicitly) so I think it ok for him to do something nice and having them leave instead of risking to get hurt since he knows he’s not going to get out alive (all the palace wants him dead as that alarm triggered).
@@edwardsuou the part where Ryuji got bodies
@@archivist_13 oh you were joking then, yeah it’s a failed comic scene, they wanted to lighten up the tone using Ryuji as a comic relief right away (there were a couple of serious scenes in a row so I can see why) but it’s just the girls beating the crap out of him for no reason.
@@edwardsuou yeah I don't like it
Shido just really doesn't work as a villain to me, the guy's whole thing is controlling public perception to gain power in the metaverse but he's so openly evil and unlikable it just doesn't add up. You'd think someone obsessed with controlling cognition would either be a great actor or very skilled at manipulation but he's neither.
The spark of Joker's arc is him getting drunk and beating a woman in public, the next time you see him he's being a shithead about stealing an elevator after which his next seen is being a prick and threatening teenagers when surrounded by bystanders...
The guy is less subtle than my Grandma gumming a cob of corn on church.
Yeah I'm honestly not sure why they didn't have Shido be the charismatic politician-type publically and only show his cracks in his palace/scenes where he's in private. They want you to believe that every member of the public is totally taken in by him, but they don't really sell it. If he wasn't so comically evil in every previous interaction, the scene with him and Akechi in the office going over their Super Evil Plan might have at least had some impact as a reveal, but as it stands, it just reiterates information the player already knows (something Persona 5 does a LOT imo, even compared to previous entries).
I honestly thought there was going to be a reveal at some point that Shido was controlling the masses' cognition (similar to P4's fog affecting how people acted) to get them to vote for him/overlook his obvious unlikability/encourage their bloodthirstiness over Okumura and then the Phantom Thieves, but even though the characters comment on an unusual response from the public, this doesn't really seem to be the case? Especially with what we're given in Royal
@@Flameclaw123This just reminds me how they had a whole cognition manipulation plot line set up with Wakaba, and just went absolutely nowhere with it. Shido is just such a stupid mastermind villain, like how do you go from the conspiracy theory level craziness that was Futaba's arc to such a goofy finale that was Shido's?
Loving the series but I was a bit disappointed the part where Akechi says "You're just some criminal trash living in an attic" was not included, that was my favorite part of the Stream
This part will immediately pick up after the events of Part 6; recommend you rewatch the last chapter of Part 6 to situate yourself.
There will also not be a Part Q&A comment for this part; I anticipate the next part to be out tomorrow as long as I can touch up the last bits of Part 8 by 2pm CST tomorrow.
You are a legend sir.
I will be very happy and sad when the last episode comes out
1:55:49 this moment really shows that the game didn't communicate well how much it depends on knowing Carl Jung and the collective unconscious. This game isn't saying that everyone is a good Person at heart. What the phantom thieves are doing is pushing outliers back into the collective unconscious and destroying their destorted view. People like shido are being forced to experience what they are doing with the moral sensibility of the general public or rather the collective minds. They are forced to face what they made out of themselves through the lense of others.
Glad Joe and Waffles could confront the person who was responsible for being expelled in this part.
The whole Akechi thing doesn't bother me that much (the Shido palace part), but I can see how it's not that great. I only played Royal, and it is done very well there because the moment is actually meaningful because Akechi has an actual confidante. I'm not even including third semester stuff either. Akechi is one of my favourite characters and I think the Shido palace part is masterful, but that is only with the much needed context to his character that Royal supplies.
having akechi jump right up to rank 6 from 0 is really fucking sus and probably made most people suspect him long before the reveal
@@Zonedoutallthetime he doesnt jump to 6, he has auto level ups before hes just incredibly obvious and the twist isn't supposed to be about akechi being the culprit but about how the thieves knew
1:56:11 had me laughing out loud yet again. I love these videos so much, the editing is amazing and I'm in awe of the effort it must have taken and your attention to detail. I've really been dragging out watching this one and will probably drag out the next one too just so they can last longer, but really, these videos are so well done!
What made you laugh? I couldn't hear anything through the messed up audio.
Great nanomachines son.
I'm making the mother of all omellettes here, can't frett over every Haru.
This is incredible. I had no idea Joeseph was so entertaining to watch stream. You and the other abridged channels are doing God's work, this has been an incredibly fun ride.
The plothole is actually part of the story, and is explained later on. If the scooby gang doesn't change the heart fast enough, Akechi will learn about missing bodies. Even Joe says "he doesn't know... yet". The time given might be a bit much, but still. They are on a timer, and they know it.
The Armstrong Memes are so perfect for the Shido fight
56:39 DAMN THE STARS ALIGN JUST FOR YOU TO PUT THE CLIP THERE
THE SLAP THE LEGENDARY SLAP
Joe's adventures about rejection would make for a solid reality tv show
58:50 Haru was the only girl I experimented to see how she took Rejection, IT WAS SO CRUEL.
1:02:40 I CAN'T WATCH THIS HAPPEN AGAIN.
1:03:15 IT'S SO CRUEL.
14:22
When I write, scenes to explain things to the audience can be hard. But here are my techniques.
1. Sometimes it doesn't need to be explained. Leave some room for mystery. But in this case, how Akechi has been operating is pretty important for the audience to know.
2. Conflict. Conflict is what makes things engaging. Here I would have Akechis conflict with shido be shown off. Shido discredits Akechis work, then Akechi gets mad and says all the stuff he's done to prove a point.
I literally came up with that in 5 seconds. Scenes like this are bad and easily fixed
the fucking vine boom when makoto says collapse im going to shit
I’m really excited for this
1:16:15
"Almost Christmas" MEANS IT WASN'T CHRISTMAS!
Watching this has made me realize that I did not upgrade my confidants nearly as much as other people when I played this game. Maybe that's why it seemed so brutally difficult.
That senator Armstrong bit was so good
It’s way too interruptive i hated it
1:55:45 I’m late to the party but I think that the idea the game is communicating is that there is a GENUINE person deep inside of everyone capable of taking responsibility deep inside if they are willing to cut the bs and illusions they build up around the narrative built by their ego. A lot of Freud shit I’m too drunk to really care about right now.
Man of answers, great editing btw this abridged series is a genuinely great watch
O man I’m soooo happy he’s falling for Haru, it’s so funny to see him regret his choice.
I only played Royal and I'm going to say it saved Akechi
Without the confidant it's so silly, so is his story ending at that bad moment
@@kestrel7493 fr rank 8 especially was amazing
I just can't take Shido seriously when every time he speaks, I have Mans1ay3r's Nazeem skit ringing in my head.
Can't a man have a bit of butt piracy?
I let you know, there is no PUUUSSSIIEEE
1:16:08 "«Almost christmas» means it wasn't christmas!"
My first thought too lol
I love you man of answers
When joe was fusing the waifus, I heard Walter saying “Behold my demons” XD
11:30
The reason why I think this is actually pretty ok is that Shido was in charge of dealing with the body and the fake death certificate.
I honestly think you could’ve added some lines about:
1- Shido was in charge of having the body cleaned
2- there was no investigation and a lot of chaos due to the lack of protocol meaning different people could’ve handled the body
3- the one sent by Shido to clean everything was confused but then said it was the police who came first and cleaned that, Shido couldn’t double check and didn’t say anything to Akechi until he came back to double check himself and had to investigate all the way until realizing the possibility they tricked him.
Akechi isn’t in charge and he’s supposed to communicate with Shido the least. The latter has to deal with falsifying everything about the hitman and removing a body from the guard as Akechi guaranteed everything went smoothly. This means it’s likely for the cleaner to be confused but reporting the room is now clear, this would’ve raised suspicion only on Akechi who found that a few days later.
The thing is Shido had no way to double check as the morgue was inaccessible due to Sae’s work and since there were no investigation handling the scene could’ve been done by different people in the police other than the one Shido sent afterwards, again no way of double checking it for sure without seeing the body and that wasn’t a priority as Shido knew his hitman said he shot him in the face. (He doesn’t work with the metaverse so he can’t understand the plan well)
That’s not really that important to the phantom thieves as all they needed was Akechi to be fooled for about an hour and Sae to protect Joker. Then Akechi could’ve not use that plan anymore and should’ve waited to ambush them in the metaverse anyway.
2 years late to join the Akechi-corpse talk, but I still think Joe misunderstood the game. Akechi would not actually send anyone to clean up the bodies. He set it up as a murder-suicide so that when the police discovered it, they would clean the corpses up. As Nijima mentioned, the coroner didn't even look at the room, and the police, who are supposed to clean up the corpses, sees the room is clear, so they assume that Akechi cleaned it up already since they are taking orders from Mr. Big Bad. I think that was the direction the game was going in. Probably if someone looks into it, they will probably notice something is off, but as Nijima said, the police are confused right now presumably because the Big Bad keeps them on a need to know basis.
Nanocognition, son.
LIIIIIIVE IN IGNORANCE AND PUUURCHASE YOUR HAPPINESS
The way Shido crushes Haru and says "Making the mother of all omelettes here" is one of the best edits you have ever done
shido's palace music is so good, easily tied with rivers in the desert for best tune in p5 original imho
It is contrived, but you could chalk up the "plot hole" to something like this:
Person goes to clean up bodies hired by Akechi's accomplice (avoiding spoilers) and realizes there are no bodies and it is assumed to be a miscommunication which is contrived but could work. Another possibility is that it was the guard outside the cell's (the one that Sae convinced to run away) job to deal with it, but he ran away. Since he never reported back they probably assumed he did the job as Akechi reported the plan as a success? I suppose that would also be the miscommunication argument?? I think the former is more likely. It is contrived, but it would explain the plot hole.
I don't understand the common assumption that they would hire someone to clean up the bodies in the first place. They want the bodies to be found, so that it makes news.
It makes sense to me that it goes like this: Akechi "leaves the bodies" in the room, expecting them to be found quickly -> Akechi + Shido bribe the coroner to rule it as a suicide, expecting the bodies to have already been found -> Coroner is never given a body, doesn't question it and just follows orders, ruling a suicide -> The coroner's report is put out so the police department assumes that the body was already found and put in the morgue -> Sae makes sure no one snoops in the morgue
Honestly, I think this line of events makes way more sense and is more intuitive than the one where Akechi/Shido hire a clean up crew. Why would they do that when they can leave it to a third party and keep up the appearance of a natural discovery? Absolutely zero need for further interference from them (assuming that the bodies are actually there, which Akechi is absolutely convinced that they are).
The only part that's slightly confusing is that the cop that was supposedly murdered couldn't have possibly ever been identified as dead, and that never sets off Akechi's suspicions. I guess Akechi/Shido just never tell the coroner about the cop and assume that it would be handled by the police department. Then it never gets mentioned on the news (because no dead cop was found) and Akechi isn't suspicious because he's so sure that Joker is dead, and just assumes that the news of the Phantom Thief's suicide overshadowed the cop's murder and didn't put much thought into it.
The problem I think comes from having to make a leap in logic due to what we hear about the coroner. So what happens is:
Akechi makes the murder suicide scene and then leaves waiting for the body to be discovered.
He (and everyone else) would expect the next guard on shift to turn up and discover the bodies eventually.
These bodies would be sent to the morgue for the coroner to inspect.
However the coroner just sends off the death certificates as soon as he hears from Akechi the job is done.
So no one is going to think much about who discovered the bodies and took them to the morgue because by neccessity someone must have already done that if the coroner was able to inspect the bodies and write the death certificate.
Since Akechi would assume the coroner would at least wait to see the bodies before submitting the fake death certificates even he would be fooled into believing the plan succeded.
With regards to the cop being murdered you have to remember that Sae told him to go into hiding. So he runs off and never returns to his job. He would later see that the news has reported that he was killed by Joker. Everyone would assume his body is sitting in the morgue because the coroner must have seen his body to write the death certficate.
The Haru rejection arc was truly novella-tier material.
Great flashback!
28:22 is what Lily said to him about their family plans
I'm so glad i came across this channel! So many fucking hilarious edits, especially the editors note when Joe was whispering. 10/10
I can't wait for P5R to come to pc, and have a mod that puts a mix of Rivers in the desert and Collective consciousness playing while fighting Shido.
why's everyone acting like mods only exist on pc
@@poudink5791 well, they clearly exist on console too, but the accessibility of pc modding tools is far superior to that of consoles, it's no coincidence that mods for any game sky rocket in popularity as soon as they appear on pc.
We did have mods for P5 that were cool on ps3, less and more basic mods on P5R due to PS4 being harder to hack, but now that they are on pc, you see even more advanced mods being made
@@poudink5791 Because that how it is. I immediately saw millions of persona 5 royal modded videos as soon as it appeared on PC
Talking about the whole 'what about the bodies' thing;
Akechi wouldn't have _needed_ to clean the bodies up, or send someone else to do it. The Whole Point was for the bodies to be found! It couldn't exactly be passed off as a murder-suicide if the bodies were hidden, hence why he *wouldn't have any reason to need to know if the bodies were dealt with or not.*
From Akechi's POV: he killed his target and the guard, the bodies were probably moved by the police, the coroner faked a suicide report, and everything worked as planned.
From the coroner's POV: he was paid to make a fake suicide report, and did so. Nothing else.
From the public's POV: the leader of the phantom thieves committed suicide. *Note that news reports never mentioned the guard.* It was reported as a suicide, not a murder-suicide. (I am somewhat surprised that this didn't tip off Akechi and/or Shido that something was amiss)
TL;DR- Akechi had no reason to check in the bodies, and there was so much confusion and double-crossing going on that no one noticed Waffles escape with Sae.
Edit: "The fate of lazy writing" (cue ol' yaldy laughing in the background)
Edit 2, electric boogaloo: "Akechi just get expelled" fucking BROKE me lmfao
Yeah I’ve tried and still don’t really understand Joe’s issue with akechi and the bodies.
I think the whole plot was presented in a way to shock rather than explain, and so it all feels much more convoluted than it actually is. It all works well honestly.
He should know not to annoy a girl with an axe.
I'm trully devastated this didnt turn into a harem run.
Let's keep our hopes up with Persona 6 someday.
Man I'm sad he didn't get to see Haru's homicidal side. He might have liked her more
I think I can explain the plot hole. By the time anyone in the police dept. went to check the interrogation room, the false death report would've already been made public and so they could assume the bodies have already been cleaned up when they find it empty. We already know Shindo controlled the investigation so it isn't a stretch to assume that he would've taken care of that as well and nobody would ask too many questions.
the waifu chimera is such a good bit
Hey, just arrived from a college reunion and despite being 1:30 AM here, I'll power through this, love your edits and keep up the good work!
even though it pains me to see Haru getting friend-zoned, i do believe in going all out for Hifumi.
Watching this made me realise how wild this part of the game is. I’ve only played royal, so to me this was just like weird section of the game, not the actual ending. Thankfully third semester now exists 😅 I love Akechi but that engine room scene is an awful send off.
the crime debate is too much for my edible ass rn
commenting for the algorithm. GREAT VIDEO
15:23 24:58 30:15 48:50 1:06:12 1:17:26 1:20:03 1:33:31
I know this comment is very late to the whole beginning discussion but if Akechi thought he killed Joker in the real world he has to at some point realize he is in the metaverse then question how the hell he got there. I know you guys focus on the bodies but he would have to realize after walking out of the interrogation room something is clearly wrong. I love the playthrough, love the content, and love the game. The rides been fun. Lol you made me have to think about the plot and not just be a fan boy xD
He gets out of the metaverse, you can se in the scene sae saves joker, she feels the metaverse again that supposedly is he coming out
The only explanation of the bodies problem is that the police, and akechi firmly believe that there are two rotting corpses in the ultra secret interrogation room. Even with shido and akechi influence they will have to clean the room and then discover there’s no bodies it’s empty. Probably one of the biggest contrivance or plot hole in the entire game.
Joe accidentally romancing best girl is incredible
And then replaying it… ann played him right into her hand and he just reloaded
God the (non)harem arc is poping
Ann's romance was handled very awkwardly and I think they should've made her not romancable with that storyline. Would've been a nice twist, that the Lovers Arcana is the only one you can't romance (Sae& Velvet room attendees don't count)
I love the chronological timeline with Joe's streaming lore.
With Haru sowing the seeds of interest for GREAT VEGETABLES. Absolute queen
Great Video
Good one at the end editor OmegaLul
the part where joe steers super hard towards haru
Ain't it convenient Akechi heard Morgana speak on 6/9?
This guy is so entertaining but also so frustrating at the same time with the way he nitpicks the smallest of details lol
1:16:15 it's giving "almost Christmas means it wasn't Christmas"
My headcanon for Waffles is that after he died in the metaverse, part of his personality died with him, and that explains his change in behavior vis a vis Ann and Haru
Still kinda bummed about how bad akechi is handled on P5 vanilla. He is better in Royal, but only really gets "redeemed" during the third semester. He's a weird character that could have worked but just didn't
what if the coroner never went there to begin with, he'd had a flat tyre on his way to the station so he arrived there late and upon entering the room he was like "oh shit there are no bodies shit it's all my fault" and then he was like "nah I'm not getting paid enough for this" so he makes a call and says everything is ok. akechi wouldn't bother with such details since in his head he personally shot waffles and watched him die.
now that's what I call mental gymnastics
That's not your theory, nor that's a mental gymnastics, it's literally said in this same video by Sae on 8:14
Coroner NEVER was on the scene. He NEVER saw the bodies. That was explicitly said. I don't understand why all commenters collectively forgot about it lol.
Whoa what happened at 1:56:00, I can't hear anything? Wonder what happened.
Yet another mistake on my part...such a shame. I have failed you all.
The Laws of Haremality will try to FORCE the Harem to happen no matter what 🤣
There are no plotholes with the bodies.
8:14 Sae: That coroner didn't take one look at the scene.
So Akechi thought that coroner will deal with the bodies (which he should've done), but corrupt coroner decided to just fake death certificate and not even bother himself with looking at the crime scene, thinking that someone else will dispose bodies.
So:
1. Akechi thought that his corrupt coroner will deal with bodies.
2. Policemen were certain that coroner WILL deal with bodies since it's his job.
3. Coroner thought that he can just release fake certificate, and some other people will deal with bodies, especially since it's a delicate matter.
Everybody who sees plothole here, including Joe, seems to completely ignore that Sae line about coroner, I don't know why. With it, everything is safe and sound.
A coroner doesn't handle body disposal or transportation though - which is Joe's issue, they're just investigators. I assumed the same thing when I played, but I guess I can see his side
47:27 I died at dojima's line
Akechi wanted it to look like Joker killed the cop and himself. That's why he left Joker and the cop's bodies behind - so the police would find them. He didn't need to clean up the crime scene and he didn't need to send anyone to do it for him. He intentionally left the bodies behind.
The coroner didn't check the bodies because the coroner assumed Akechi did the deed and reported it as a murder/suicide. So the coroner didn't even notice that there were no bodies - he just reported whatever Akechi told him.
And the police never saw the bodies because, of course, Akechi was in the Metaverse. There were no bodies to be found. So the police either believed the coroner's report and assumed that Joker died and was taken away, or they didn't want to admit that they lost the prisoner and kept their mouths shut.
The plot twist DOES make sense, the game just does an awful job of explaining how and why the Phantom Thieves got away with it. That, and you have to be willing to accept how freakishly lucky they are that the coroner didn't bother to check the bodies - if he had, he would have told Akechi right away that the bodies were missing.
Judging by the aspects of both Haru and Rise that really devolved Joe into simp mode, I feel like it's innevitable that he's gonna like Sumi too when he eventually gets around to Royal.
The real question is if he's gonna wait for her romance unlock or settle for the floof.
Great plot hole
Great story writing vegetables.
Wow, a plot hole!
@@koalabro6118 For his neutral special, he writes in a plot hole!
Who knew the plot had such wonderous holes?
If I’ve got it right, the plot hole Joe’s pointing out isn’t really a plot hole but it IS a massive plot CONTRIVANCE.
1. The police officers. It’s not implausible to think Shido has that many cops on his payroll considering his position. They might not know about the metaverse but they don’t need to for the mission. Just capture Joker. It is an over exaggeration on the game’s part but nothing that can’t be explained.
2. This is really small but Akechi didn’t kill shadows, he killed cognitive fakes. Joker doesn’t even have a shadow since shadows turn into personas post awakening.
3. Akechi’s two outfits. Akechi’s just an exception. We never really learn the rules of the metaverse from an omniscient source. Just what the Phantom Thieves saw. Joker can wield multiple personas because of the wild card. Akechi is another similar exception to the rules that the Thieves had placed. Someone with a two faced nature can have 2 different awakenings, one for each nature. Two awakenings makes two costumes. So the fact that he has two isn’t really anything too much to go off of. As for the Phantom Thieves, whether they assumed that exception existed or not, it doesn’t matter. They knew that Akechi was a persona user with connections to the mental shutdown case. That’s reason enough. Even by Morgana’s dialogue in Shido’s palace ‘Even his appearance was a fake’, you could say that the Phantom Thieves weren’t completely sure about the black mask thing. They did know that Akechi was someone who had played a part in the mental shutdown case, but not necessarily the black mask.
Now, the big one.
4. THE BODIES.
First things first, Akechi does not need to clean the bodies. The death was a murder suicide so the expected thing is that a cop would find it and call someone to take it away. Anyone with affiliation to the case would know about the death certificate and the murder suicide and seeing that there are no bodies, the cop would assume that they’ve already been taken away. For Akechi’s view, his job is done. The rest is up to the paid coroner to pass the certificate and regular people to put it into the morgue. The people who would put the body into the morgue would not need to be on Shido’s payroll. They have a death certificate and 2 bodies. They would just put them in the morgue. However, there are no bodies. The cop who would normally see the bodies would assume that they’ve been cleaned up. And the person who would put the bodies in the morgue would also assume that they’ve already been put into the morgue by someone else since the death certificate exists. And since no one put it in, we have the desired outcome. Two bodies never being placed in a morgue since they never existed.
Unless I’m missing something, this is not a plot hole. However, it is a MASSIVE plot contrivance and Joe is right to complain about it. He’s just complaining about the wrong thing. I had to go through mental gymnastics to figure out an explanation. A player who’s playing this like Joe, that being a person who pays a lot of attention to the game but doesn’t try to analyse every single minute detail to pull out an explanation would have this problem with the game.
Regarding what you said about Akechi, the game actually confirms that he is a wild card like Joker through the dialogue before and during his boss fight, and also in Royal's third semester. Both Joker and Akechi are the "players" in Yaldabaoth's game, so they have similar abilities. The difference between them is that Joker nurtured his bonds with others, thus granting him access to many different personas (it's why confidant rank empowers personas and vice-versa) while Akechi remained alone, and so his wild card manifested instead in the shape of this split personality because those are the only real connections Akechi has: to his 2 different sides. It's true that the metaverse and personas don't have super defined rules, but the persona lore does make it very clear that more than 1 persona = wildcard, regardless of the specifics.
If the cop cleaning up the bodies was in on it, then surely they would have to have been picked specifically for the job, which means that they would be suspicious that it was already complete.
@@veras7927 There would be no reason for the cop who finds out the bodies to be in on it. Hell, it’d probably be better since it leaves less loose ends according to Shido and Akechi. I’m not really defending it, the plan is still very contrived, it’s just not a plot hole. From the way I see it at least.
@@anastasishatzakis5752 But if the cop who came to check on the bodies was not in on it, how would they know that there were bodies that were supposed to be there to begin with? There's no reason they would go to check in the first place, and the bodies would've been left to rot until they were found by sheer coincidence (of course, there were never any bodies to clean up, but akechi doesn't know that).
Either that or the mortician who forged the death certificate asked an unrelated cop to do a cleanup in the cell. But that's also obviously wrong because for the mortician to declare the body dead and file a report, they would have already removed the body from the site of death to examine it.
@@veras7927 No one would walk in the room for any reason until someone told them to? The cameras would supposedly have a dead body shown. As for how Akechi wouldn’t be shown on the cameras, they would definitely be turned off for a period of time for the assassination. There are no bodies to be found but from Akechi’s perspective, a random person would walk in, find the bodies and get someone to clean them up. The bodies would then go to the mortician who would put them in the morgue with the death certificate. This is a pretty rushed response to be fair.
OMG IM SO EXCITED
i was scratching my head over the 2 body thing too so here's how i coped with it after like 7 playthroughs,
the police who were in the know thought akechi would kill joker. joker's guard was still alive so the police didn't think to check. because he skipped town akechi thought he was dead. nothing seemed out of the ordinary here. assuming the yakuza dispose of the bodies because they're shido's cleaners, then akechi and the police really don't want to talk with the yakuza and vice versa because of how secretive this event is, and they especially don't want to get caught so close to shido's election. so like joe said, a guard checked in and thought the cleaners dealt with it already and told the coroner it's all done. the cleaners still waiting on the body didn't really want to contact shido to avoid drama before the election. either way, nobody cross checked anybody's fact, so joker just got away with it. it definitely requires a lot of mental gymnastics and i think it's one of the game's plot holes for sure
Don't see how it's a plothole.
Akechi believes the bodies will be found by the police department and tells the coroner to rule a suicide.
Coroner believes the bodies to be dealt with already and rules a suicide.
Police department sees that the death has been ruled as a suicide and thus believe that the body has already been moved to the morgue. Sae "confirms" this to the police department and prevents anyone from snooping.
Who is expecting to find a body and are surprised when there is none? Where is the plothole?
1:04:49 THUNDER CROSS SPLIT ATTACK!
Came back here after playing Persona 5 royal (i didnt maxed out Maruki so just the vanilla part)
And holy, royal changes alot the game (no so much the story tho)
It's always disappointing when the streamer you like doesn't get the same experience from the game that you did. Akechi was my favorite part: evil laughter and all. I was hoping to see someone else share that feeling. Joe's not in the wrong or anything for not liking a part of a video game that I did, though. I just wish it had gone differently.
I get that, but it’s not hard to understand him when they thing he thinks would be the most ridiculous to happen, actually happens XD
akechi is great in royal, not original
Im just going to say this, there are ways to explain the plothole but the game really needs to do it by itself
Ex: akechi on the surface is just like a damn junior detective more than likely worrying about the bodies is just not even within his scope of duties and some joe schmoe dealing with clean up and fabrication saw the body gone and assumed someone else took care of it already. After all its not going to be examined and its fabricated anyway so maybe made some "eh fuck it" decision. There are ways to explain it just none of them good
In fact the police confronting sae makes more sense since after being arrested hed now be prosecuted so it could even be that sae covered it up
Why would he want to clean up the bodies? They were supposed to be found, so that the suicide makes the news, hence the need to bribe the coroner.
The "way to explain it" is way more intuitive than any scenario with a plot hole in it. Akechi and Shido trying to clean up the bodies themselves is the explanation that makes no sense.
The plan is very over complicated, and a problem I have is the risk reward. Sure it worked but the risk is high. Why not immediately go after Akechi once you have suspicions of him, then actually steal Saes heart. Both problems solved but way simpler with way less that could go wrong
Joe and I had the same experience with waifus in this game. We both started out hating one of the girls, ended up dating Hifumi, only to later realize that we actually really like the girl we hated but didn't want to make Joker into a scumbag cheater. Only I switched to best girl Futaba instead of also very good choice Haru.
I am still pissed off because on my first playthrough I got locked into Ann because her romance option does not seem like a romance option at all.
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1:29:30 That Doot Doot at the top left!!!
Ann was the first one I got to a high support level and I reloaded to avoid it
I replayed the slap like 5 times.
i'm so sad i had to leave before the expelled arc
I assumed both the cop and joker were cognitive, no? Meaning there wouldn't be bodies to cleanup.
The bodies are cognitive, but aketchi thinks that there are two real human corpses, and his inside man the mortician should go pretend to determine the cause of death and then dispose of those bodies so that nobody can double check them.
The fact that the mortician says that he checked the bodies and that the cause of death was murder suicide, when there would be no bodies to pretend to study, is the plot hole. The mortician should have thought that something was up after he went to pretend to check the bodies and dispose of them, and didn't have any bodies to pretend to check or to dispose of.
@@koalabro6118
Why would he have to go to the bodies to pretend to check them? He could just write up that murder suicide report and be done with it. It'd be easy to assume somebody already dealt with the bodies so he only had to write up the false report.
Though the guy who got sent to clean up the body and finds nothing and then says nothing sounds like peak bureaucratic incompetence
@@evertime123 but they're the mortician. THEY deal with the bodies. They would make a fake cause of death and then they dispose of the evidence.
@@koalabro6118I'm late but is it possible the translation mixed up coroner and mortician? They mentioned the bodies were meant to be in the mourge, perhaps the 'coroner' was meant to pick them up but assumed someone else did it and was already paid off to rule it a murder suicide?
I know the gamblers fallacy thing was last video, but I've been thinking about it and I'm not quite sure I understand it. I know I could just go to the Wikipedia page and it would probably answer my questions, but I think it's more fun to write out my thought process.
Using a coin flip was the easiest way I could think about this, so I'll just use that. I understand that the odds are 50/50 every time, but if you flip tails 19 times in a row, wouldn't the 50/50 odds be overruled by the probability of hitting tails for the 20th time in a row? Theres a .00001% of that happening. So, heads from a statistical standpoint is "due"... right?
The gamblers fallacy existing in the first place means I'm wrong, bc smarter people than me have tackled the subject. But I'm not sure why I'm wrong exactly.
It's unlikely to get tails that many times in a row, BUT the odds of each coin flip are completely independent from the previous ones. It's still a 50/50 chance you'll land on tails.