What do you thing? I sometimes feel like GRRM was building on something and decided to drop it tbh, both possibilities work quite nicely and I don't have issues with any of them. PS. I haven't recorded in a while and the Greek accent is wildin' more than usual.
Great video as always! Missed you so much! I agree with you that Tyrion being a Targaryen does not diminishes the depth of his relation with Tywin , but I disagree when it comes to his relationship with Jon and Daenerys: having all of our three protagonists be secret Targs whose moms died in childbirth makes the story sound repetitive and puts too much emphasis on special magic bloodlines. Jon and Dany very similar characters: both are teenagers that grew up as outcasts who get into direct contact with powerful magic at the end of the first book and must quickly learn how to become political leaders to change world for better. Tyrion on the other hand already begins the story as an adult and expert politician; he doesn't get involved directly with magic until much later and his political rise is motivated by way more selfish reasons. The main simliarity of Tyrion and the other two is that all of them grew up as outcasts so all of them can be passionate and heroic towards the weak and vulnerable, but what sets Tyrion apart is that his compassion is much more ocasional and is intertwined with moments of horrible cruelty and selfishness. Tyrion COULD find belonging and redemption with Jon and Dany, but the stark diffeerences between him and them is that he does not necessarily DESERVES it. Jon and Dany are very much traditional fantasy heroes, and while Tyrion may be a hero, he for sure is not traditional. Jon and Dany are the "chosen ones" while Tyrion is not. I think a lot of the beauty in George's writing is in the contrast between those archetypes, and I think part of this beauty is lost by also including him in the secret bloodline club. Anyways, as you said this plotline was probably abandoned and I honestly hope we never get a definitive answer.
Making him not Tywin’s son ruins that dynamic for me because it would be reassuring that Tywin mistreating Tyrion since he’s not his son. Prefer it to be that Tyrion is his son and has a lot of his own qualities more so than Jamie and Cersei.
Exactly having him not actually be twins son basically proves him right to mistreat him , Tyrion is literally tywin but smaller that is literally stated in the books he's his son rather tywin likes it or not .
I disagree with the "justification" bit for the reasons I stated in the video. Tyrion is a small Tywin bc he was raised by Tywin, blood doesn't necessarily play a role in this. And it's the reason I really don't like the TargTwins theory. It kinda implicates they practice incest, are hotheaded, and have the issues they have bc of their Targaryen blood and not because of Tywin, which is not true. Tyrion has his flaws and pros because of Tywin, bc he grew up with him. The Twins have the issues they have bc Tywin raised them believing that the Lannisters are sticking together and no one is as worthy as we are.
@@CompanyOfTheCat perhaps justification is the wrong word but I feel that by making him not his son sort of gives tywin gratification like " oh he was right because he wasn't actually his son " of course he's wrong regardless but you get what I mean I think it would just send the wrong message.
@@CompanyOfTheCat I'm not sure we can blame Tywin for the twins, since he was often at court when they were young and would naturally have delegated their raising to Joanna (and she is the one who catches them 'experimenting'). To be sure they were raised to be useful pieces of Tywin's plans, but their incestuous tendencies seem to be rooted more in Cersei's astounding narcissism than any traditional idea of 'love'. I think that, rather than these issues being caused by Tywin's parenting, rather they were allowed to blossom because he DIDN'T raise them outside of what he specifically considered useful. Tyrion, then, is a copy of Tywin because in forcing Tyrion through all of the humiliations and challenges he challenges him in a way Tywin himself was challenged to escape from his own father's shadow. I also dislike the 'Tyrion Targaryen' theory because it firstly requires Joanna to not say anything/abort the pregnancy, and then for the very proud and very merciless Tywin to not kill Tyrion then and there- or, if he had no specific proof, to use the mere accusation to break the rule of Aerys II and FORCE Rhaegar to marry Cersei as recompense/ hatch another plan to have Tyrion acknowledged and raise him as a puppet Targaryen, or any other scheme. As is, Tywin himself is absolutely certain Tyrion is his, and I'm willing to bet he tried hard to find any excuse for that not to be the case. The pieces are there, but they just don't line up neatly enough for me to lend them weight.
The evidence is there, but it's for the characters, not for us. It creates s chain of circumstances for Tywin to suspect that something is afoot, with the reader only bearing witness to the outcomes of such a bedeviled relationship.
There are some very interesting parallels between the Lannisters and the Targaryens eg. Incest, red as a house colour, ruling out of the red keep ect, and It just occurred to me that the Lannister name “Gerion” sounds like a reference “Tar-Gerion” as well
Yeah, them melting Ice, defeating the grey cold starks, and so on. Even with them being blonde, the parallels are there, just in Tyrion's case I don't know if GRRM goes for parallels only or if there's more.
I don't think we'll get an actual answer to this question. I think Tyrion will continue to believe thet he is a Lannister regardless, because I think he is becoming a villain. He will embrace his inner Tywin when he advises Dany and as Jaime struggles to redeem his soiled self, Tyrion will actively arm himself with the malice people always percieved in him because of his appearance. Also I think that Tyrion not being a Lannister would reduce the dramatic irony of Tywin and Shae and the Chataya tunnel
Yeah, I agree except if something happens with the dragons I don't see us getting an answer. That being said I get both sides, what I am not sure about is GRRM, as another comment said, it looks like that plotline was dropped in the meantime which is kinda weird tbh.
I don't think Tyrion will become a villain gourges whole thing is about criticizing how basterds and dwarfs are treated I don't think it makes much sense to make Tyrion a villain as it would basically be providing those who demonized Tyrion Right about him being a monster especially if he's associated with Dany who isn't just going to have a evil person around her , I see him becoming a blood raven type character instead.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 maybe, but Tyrion has already done many villainous things and i think he will do many more. His main goal was to be loved and respected, and he now seems resigned to be hated instead. It's very possible that his arc ends with him changing for the better, but he was never a "good guy" to begin with, he was just clever and fun read
@@iwark that's why I think he'll be a blood raven character he'll still have darkness and do morally questionable things but will ultimately not be a full villain.
Χαῖρε! GRRM definitely seemed to be pushing the Tyrion Targ, sub-plot in the early days, but I think he abandoned it after GoT, along with Tyrion's "acrobatic" skills, etc...I prefer him being Tywin's true-born son from a literary perspective, as well. It adds much more depth, breadth and tragedy to the Father-Son relationship. We have enough double-secret switch-a-roo identity "twists" already. I'm also not aware of any Targ dwarf in History either, so making Tyrion the first would be a bit out of place. Cheers!
yay you're back! i am also not a big fan of this theory, mainly because him being Tywin's son and Tywin being in denial of this every single day of Tyrion's life is so much more impactful (to me at least) than him being product of SA. as many people said before, this might have been a dropped plotline. IMO, it might have been re-ignited with the popularity of the tv series in media in general and the focus the directors put on Tyrion (he touched one of dany's dragons, iirc?) thus "completing the big 3" (jon, dany, and tyrion). in the books this last 'head' of the dragon goes to fAegon, who of course we don't know if he's an actual Targ, but the possibility is there. i do find the chymera theory interesting, i thought it was a tinfloil theory but apparently its very plausible. thank you Cat!
I think Cersei and Jaime are definitely Targaryens but I’m on the fence about Tyrion. Unless he’s a chimera of course. cut open that cat. Maegor butchered a cat when he was given his first sword. I think it’s poetic that Jaime killed his father to save the realm and then actually sat the throne for a few minutes before Ned got there. Cersei is so mad for wildfyre it’s like she’s possessed by Aerys II’s ghost. But I also feel like Tyrion is going to ride a dragon. Maybe not.
Personally, I find the TargTwins very problematic mostly and that completely destroys the commentary on generational trauma in the books. Some of the "proofs" people use for Jaime and Cersei are their flaws. Obsession with fire for Cersei, incest, hotheadedness, etc. Everything bad Jaime and Cersei have is because of a person they hardly interact with, Aerys and this really doesn't sit well with me. Same with Tyrion being only like that (flaws and pros), bc he is by blood Tywin's" and not because he was the person that raised him. The whole series is generational drama and trauma it's a very bad circle that still continues and people who hadn't even met their old relatives pay for their mistakes. I really don't like if in the end is "Well, if it's in your blood...", bc this is not true, nurture plays a much bigger role than nature. Tyrion is his son, bc he grew up with him. He has his issues and positive traits because of his upbringing same as Cersei and Jaime. Attributing the bad and positive traits of the kids to blood is what gives a pass to Tywin. The Twins have the issues they have bc Tywin raised them believing that "The Lannisters are sticking together and no one is as worthy as we are" not because they are Targaryens.
A big problem in this conversation is that Dragon Dreams and dreaming with dragons aren't synonyms. The former is supernatural, while the letter is a dream with dragons. Tyrion has the 1st, some Targaryens have the 2nd.
@@jgr7487 Not really, no. If Aerys was doing stuff to Joanna at the beginning of her marriage with Tywin, which is why Rhaella dismissed Joanna from the position in the first place, we are talking about 263 AC. In the world book it indicated that after the first night and maybe some months after that, Joanna was in King's Landing, but left for Casterly Rock where she remained for years. Cersei and Jaime were born in 266, three years after Tywin's and Joanna's marriage. Tyrion's birth aligns with her visit where we learn Aerys wouldn't let them leave. I personally want all the kids to be Tywin's but the twins' timeline doesn't make much sense.
@@NotAnotherAccount735 For Tyrion to be a Targ, he had to be conceived in one of these fast visits. For the twins to be Targaryens, they could have been conceived any time between Joanna's first arrival at KL and her dismissal.
Ehhh…it’s hard. The story is best when he IS Tywins son. But…the tail rumors, the dragon dreams, the mismatched eyes? I feel like at the very minimum, we’re supposed to think about it - whether it’s true or not
Tywin didn't quit as Hand until after Aerys took Jaime away from him. Had he had any reason to believe that this missapen "thing" that killed his wife was not his, he would have Tyrion smothered in his crib and left Kings Landing. Contributing to the death of his beloved wife would be, in my eyes, the greater crime against Tywin. Taking away his heir, although insulting and the last straw, was fixable overall - Tywin just had to remarry and sire more sons (why didn't he anyway?). But Tywin suffers Tyrion because he is his son. He might fight the truth of it in his mind because Tyrion is not the type of legacy Tywin wishes to be associated with, but he kept him and educated him like a little Lord. I don't think he would've married him to Sansa if he worried about any Targaryen traits coming through in the children. Lannisters trying to claim Winterfell with a purple eyed and silver haired grandson of Lord Eddard? The fact that out of all his children, Tyrion is the most like Tywin adds an interesting layer to their relationship. And dreaming about power and freedom, which what dragons would represent, sounds about right for a family pariah. And it was pointed out before that such textual 'clues' drop after book 1 (?), so maybe George considered it but decided not to pursue? There is plenty of characters with double or possible double and secret identities that adding Tyrion would make the trope a cliche.
Tyrion's a chimera, duh (lol I do actually believe it's possible he is a twin born of both Tywin and Aerys). My step sister had twins from two different fathers, so it's not as nonsensical or uncommon as people might first believe....
Jamie and Cersie being Targ bastards actually has more appeal to me. Tyrion being his only trueborn son and as a hidden explanation of the twins incest in addition
If anything, it makes an interesting contrast between Jon and Tyrion in the sense that Jon may very well be Rhaegar's son, but Ned was his "real" father, considering how significantly Ned shaped the man Jon grew to become. In a weird way, you could also say it causes Jon to be Ned's "true" son in terms of the substance of his character. This creates an interesting parallel for Tyrion and Tywin, potentially. That being said, my emotions appeal to Tyrion being a true born Lannister by blood, but I don't hate the alternative.
He's more likely to be part Martell, in my opinion. He didn't get partially black hair from either Tywin or Aerys and we know Lewyn had a secret lover.
I wouldn't find it weird if Tywin had a daughter, but I don't see her having a point in the story tbh. I think she is mostly there to point out the possible hypocrisy of Tywin if indeed she is his.
I don't subscribe to the theory but there are two things I like about it 1 I always feel bad for Daenerys having no family left so her suddenly getting Tyrion and jon would be great for her and for them too (Tyrion finally gets a good sister ) it's too happy and hopeful I know but it's just a silly wish of mine 2 George always mirrors Dany with Cersei, despite Dany being the mad king's daughter it's Cersei who's mad like him and shares many if his attributes while Dany is the opposite now imagine if Tyrion is Aerys' son and Cersei of course is tywin's and yet Cersei is the mad king come again and Tyrion is all the best qualities of tywin, the irony of it all is hilarious
I had no idea this was coming! Its like Christmas for me as I'm big on this theory lol. If you ever can be bothered and have the time I'd love to see your take on the Tyrion chimaera theory that kis kind of related to this theory. For me that is a really fun one and it fits with at least my take of asoiaf. If it's really dumb no worries! x
Please lets not Forget ; Just Like Jon , Even if Tyrion is not a Lannister from Tywins Side. He’s Still a Lannister On his Mothers Side. Just like Jon getting it From Lyanna
If Tyrion is a Targaryen than he Ironically is the one Lannister child who's not inbred. Jaime and Tyrion would have unknowingly killed each other's fathers. And those early conversations with Jon at Winterfell take on a whole knew dynamic. Not only would Jon and Tyrion be family, they would both be a "son" of a lord paramount who is not biologically a the son of that lord paramount. They would also both be greatly influenced by the father whom raised them.
I mean all people are influenced by the parents who raised them. This is my main issue with the twins being Targaryen theory. Whoever is Tyrion's natural father doesn't really matter, bc his flaws and pros are directly linked to how Tywin raised him. Even if he is not biologically his father, he is way more of his son, than Jaime and Cersei and even outsiders can spot it. On the other side, Cersei and Jaime are often speculated to be Targaryens according to flaws that were inherited from a person they hardly knew as opposed to Tywin's sh*tty parenting.
@@CompanyOfTheCat The twins definitely have Targaryen symbolism, but I agree that they're probably not Targaryen, and for the same reasons. Cersei is going mad like Aries and if she tries to burn everything that will put Jaime is a similar but worse situation to the one he was in before. Cersei is also taking on Robert's bad habits of drinking and becoming abusive in a similar manner to Robert. She's falling into the pitfalls of people she's criticized and pretends to have more ability than.
its a red herring, almost too obvious. in the books an aunt says nah, tyrion is tywin's son even more than jaime. tyrion is lann the clever reborn, the lannister thinker/planner/schemer
I mean yes, but he is also a Lannister from his mother's side as well let's not forget that the mother matters just as much, she was Tywin's first cousin who looked like a female version of himself (very Jaime, and Cersei of him btw). Lann was also said to be a bastard by a woman who was unlucky in love with hair as golden as the sun, Rowan Goldtree. It's ok to not like the theory, I myself don't rip my panties for another secret Targaryen, but at least in the first book looks like George was building on something, and in the meantime, he dropped it. At this point in the novels, both paths could work.
It's obvious Tywin-cope. Surely, my perfect Joanna and I, with our pure(!) Lannister-blood could never have produced such a horrid little creature. Must be that freak Aerys! And also Tyrion, not Cersei, is the one who is truly like their father.
Ok I only finished it now and here are my two cents: I've never felt particularly strongly about this theory either and I kind of did not get why this was such a strong subject of debate. I agree with your points how Tyrion being Aerys' bastard would not have diminished the themes nor Tyrion-Tywin relationship as much as it is claimed by the opponents of this theory. I do believe that the most likely explanation is that Tyrion Targaryen was an early development George considered, but might have scrapped, hence why I think there's so much evidence of it AGOT, but it kind of diminishes as the series progresses. My favorite tinfoil that would sort of give us the best of both worlds is Tyrion being a human chimera. I'm no biologist, but I believe it is possible for two zygotes with distinct DNA to merge. It's very rare, but it does happen. Thus, Tyrion would have both Lannister and Targaryen DNA.
Same, the chimera is my favorite theory tinfoil or not, I don't care😂 I also 100% agree that it looks like a dropped plot line, that I can easily see going both ways and I always found it very fascinating how many people disagree with this one, bc the "Targaryen Twins" is the real villain of a theory if you ask me. I don't see people being that opposed to it, like yes there are many people who do not like it or agree with Cersei and Jaime being Aerys', but at least in the places where I have been there is not that much pushback as with Tyrion.
I was thinking about the kinslayer theory, that most people that become one also loose their vitality/life and their fertility (like the Grey King, Stannis and maybe Theon and Robb too) If Tyrion was a Lannister and killed his father, maybe he would be gaunt and greying by now in the books, but I agree that it can go both ways and it would be ok
I was going to comment that, Tyrion is still very much Lannister, the question is more on both sides or not? The whole Kinslaying and greying is a thing, but it's an actual physical consequence when magic is involved. Theon is a very different thing, but for Stannis magic was heavily involved, it looks like he gave part of his soul.
I would not consider Tyrion to be like Tywin but he definetly had the mind and character traits Tywin would want in Jaime, loyal, brave, intelligent and cunning. But Tyrion also has a trait that Tywin definetly despises, empathy. Tyrion is a great leader and manager but NOT a good politician. Tyrion lacks political ambition and i think some people conflate being a leader with being a politician, those are very different things. Tyrion is not a player in the game of thrones
Agree and disagree with that. Tyrion is not a player, yes, but not because he cannot, but because he doesn't really care about it. He definitely can be a very good player if he says I want to do that. He does have the brains that Tywin valued and under completely different circumstances Tyrion easily could have been Tywin's golden child.
@@CompanyOfTheCat if he wants to yes but Tyrion does not want to. Tyrion only took charge of Kings Landing because he wanted his father's approval, Tyrion now lacks any motivation to even consider being a player.
He doesnt really have empathy, tho. He wants to be liked and he understands that there are other ways to rule than by the fist. He is a 1%er who whines about asshole-dad to a girl his henchman stole for him to fuck. When he finally hits rock bottom he still cannot relate to someone who even has the same physical challenges as himself. He's simply more vulnerable than Tywin but his empathy is superficial at best, narcisistic and self-serving at worst.
That spotted border around the screen triggers my brain so bad. I am constantly thinking it's the RUclips time bar, with a myriad of chapters. Horrible.
I am the opposite, the Tyrion Targaryen is a completly neutreual possibility, the twins being part Targaryens, on the other side, really doesn't sit well with me 😂
For me i think it's weird how you think that tyrion being targ have more possibilty than jaime and cersei. I think it's totatlly bad writing if iy after all the similar things between tyrion and tywin to turn out that he is not his son, his aunt litteraly told jaime tyrion is tywin son not you
@@NANINANI-cs6rn because we are going to a territory I find very problematic mostly. Oh everything bad Jaime and Cersei have (incest, hot headedness etc) are because of a person they hardly interacted with, Aerys. And Tyrion is only like that, bc he is by blood Tywin's and not because he was the person that raised him. The whole series is genational drama and trauma, and I really don't like if in the end is "Well, if it's in your blood...", bc this is not true, nurture plays a much bigger role than nature. Tyrion's is his son, bc he grew up with him.
Twin studies have been done and nature plays a bigger role than nurture. Like identical twins being raised by vastly different families and ending up with almost identical intelligence and level of achievement. Also the whole series is about magical blood and inheriting "madness" and physical looks and behaviour from your ancestors. Like Arya was raised by Ned who is different from Lyanna and Brandon yet Arya is like Lyanna and looks like her because they share the same blood.@@CompanyOfTheCat
Tywin did recognize Tyrion's skills. Show Tywin sent Tyrion to King's Landing to bring to heel Geoffrey and Cersi. He knew that Tyrion would be up to the task, and Tyrion was up to the task. Once the task was completed, once Tyrion out manuvered Cersi, saved King's Landing and the Lannister Monarchy from Stannis, Tywin diminished Tyrion once more while Tyrion recovered from his injuries. In effect, Tywin informed him that even skilled leadership and strategic cunning would not save him from Tywin's wrath. Tyrion could never redeem himself in Tywin's eyes. Olena Tyrell and Cersi's treachery and paranoia doomed Tyrion. Tywin, the man with truly low cunning, made use of this opportunity to rid himself of his son. But, Tyrion, foiled this plan, escaped but not before ending Tywin's life. Tyrion killed his father not for Tywin's many crimes he committed against him, but for calling Tysha a whore, for implanting that posionious thought in Tyrion's mind. Tysha was the only person who loved him unconditionally. She gave him what he wanted and needed. For Tywin, Tyrion should not have anything prideful and humane in his life. Tyrion would be wretched and know that he was wretched. Oh, and I also suspect Tyrion is half Targaryan. The tell for me was Dany's imprisoned dragons did not eat him while he attempted to free them. Her dragons liked Jon Snow also.
Tywin sent Tyrion to King's Landing to make a mess of things so it would be easier for Tywin to take control. Tyrion accomplished this task marvellously.
@@alex52043 Tyrion saved King's Landing with inadequate forces to succeed. That's not Tyrion making a mess of things. That's Tyrion succeeding magnificently! Tyrion also out manuvered Cersi and Geoffrey. Tywin sent Tyrion to do just that. I don't believe a plausible case can be made that Tyrion failed as the Hand of the King. Indeed, he succeeded even though everyone knew he was a place-holder, had Cersi and Geoffrey as enemies, did not have a large army, etc. In the end, Tyrion greatly bloodied Stannis and killed Tywin, the formidle foes he had to master to stay alive.
@@sdzielinski Tywin and the Tyrells saved King's Landing. Tyrion led a poorly considered sortie that nearly got him killed. How the hell is turning on your only potential ally in the city succeeding magnificently? Tywin played his family against each other to increase his control and Tyrion failed to actually gain any control over King's Landing, hence his trial and exile. It's only Jaime's kindness and Varys' scheming that allowed Tyrion's survival and Tywin's death.
@@alex52043 Believe what you want. Tywin and the Tyrells left the city poorly defended. Tyrion's strategy saved KL from defeat. Tywin no longer had to take ass whuppins from Robb Stark. Had Tyrion failed, Tywin would have returned to KL just to take ass whuppins from King Stannis.
Post-listen: still think tyrion is tywins son but i do really like some of the themes identified if he were a targaryan. It seems likely to me that the twins were conceived during the liberties taken at the bedding, but i dont see a great reason for tyrions virth not being of tywins loins. That said, while cersei is a dragon in all but name, jaimes dreams do seem to indicate tywin was his father. I am certainly more open to tyrion being a dragon after my listen.
For me, Tyrion is a very weird case of a dropped storyline tbh. I would prefer if all the children were Twyin's tbh, but I am fairly certain that George had in mind to make Tyrion into o Targaryen when the series began. AGOT is full of weird comments and instances of Tyrion, but in later novels, all these "He could feel how the bones liked the fire" were dropped and are something that we won't really get answers either. About the Twins I will also make a video most likely because this is a theory I don't like personally, I actually think is the theory that gives Tywin's shitty parenting and cruelty a pass, bc all the negative qualities are because of a guy the twins hardly knew when their father also had these tendencies. Marrying his first cousin that looked like him, Lannisters are above the rest mentality and we should stick together, burning and sucking left and right, even Jon Con commented on what Twyin would do at the stony sept and it was "He would have *burned* every living creature in it. Plus, after the World Book, the timeline doesn't fit for the twins to be Aerys', which is probably the best counter-argument IMO. The difference is so big that neither the "George is bad at maths" can fix it. Aerys allegedly assaulted Joanna at the beginning (some even say during the wedding night) of her marriage with Tywin, which is why Rhaella dismissed Joanna from the position in the first place, this took place in 263 AC. In the world book, it is stated that Joanna was in King's Landing and left very soon after her wedding, and she remained for years in Casterly Rock. If her dismissal was very shortly after their wedding in 263, as all sources claim, we are talking about 263 max early 264 and the twins were born in 266. The timeline is all over the place. On the other hand, Joanna was in KL in 272 for the first time in years and stayed there for quite some time with Tywin, where we learn how crude he was towards her and how Aerys allegedly assaulted her once again, with Aerys keeping them in the palace when they wanted to leave. And in 273 she gave birth to Tyrion. That was a whole essay, sorry about that xD. Thanks for watching💞
@CompanyOfTheCat wow the timeline is super helpful as i never read the worldbook. My only question on that would be how long is a westerosi year is it the same length as an earth year? I assume it is, but there is no reason it should be with the screwed up orbit of planetos. That being said, i am now more convinced the twins are tywins, but how does cersei get explained. Just randomly insane?
What do you thing? I sometimes feel like GRRM was building on something and decided to drop it tbh, both possibilities work quite nicely and I don't have issues with any of them.
PS. I haven't recorded in a while and the Greek accent is wildin' more than usual.
I think your pronounciation is very good and we all can understand you, btw your Accent gives your Videos some unique Charakter.
Great video as always! Missed you so much!
I agree with you that Tyrion being a Targaryen does not diminishes the depth of his relation with Tywin , but I disagree when it comes to his relationship with Jon and Daenerys: having all of our three protagonists be secret Targs whose moms died in childbirth makes the story sound repetitive and puts too much emphasis on special magic bloodlines.
Jon and Dany very similar characters: both are teenagers that grew up as outcasts who get into direct contact with powerful magic at the end of the first book and must quickly learn how to become political leaders to change world for better. Tyrion on the other hand already begins the story as an adult and expert politician; he doesn't get involved directly with magic until much later and his political rise is motivated by way more selfish reasons.
The main simliarity of Tyrion and the other two is that all of them grew up as outcasts so all of them can be passionate and heroic towards the weak and vulnerable, but what sets Tyrion apart is that his compassion is much more ocasional and is intertwined with moments of horrible cruelty and selfishness. Tyrion COULD find belonging and redemption with Jon and Dany, but the stark diffeerences between him and them is that he does not necessarily DESERVES it.
Jon and Dany are very much traditional fantasy heroes, and while Tyrion may be a hero, he for sure is not traditional. Jon and Dany are the "chosen ones" while Tyrion is not. I think a lot of the beauty in George's writing is in the contrast between those archetypes, and I think part of this beauty is lost by also including him in the secret bloodline club.
Anyways, as you said this plotline was probably abandoned and I honestly hope we never get a definitive answer.
Thumbs up who always reads the community posts in her voice (greek accent ftw) 👍
@@Ilargizuriexactly !
We love you're accent. Great video. I hope you have a wonderful weekend. Best wishes always. 🤍
Making him not Tywin’s son ruins that dynamic for me because it would be reassuring that Tywin mistreating Tyrion since he’s not his son. Prefer it to be that Tyrion is his son and has a lot of his own qualities more so than Jamie and Cersei.
Exactly having him not actually be twins son basically proves him right to mistreat him , Tyrion is literally tywin but smaller that is literally stated in the books he's his son rather tywin likes it or not .
I disagree with the "justification" bit for the reasons I stated in the video. Tyrion is a small Tywin bc he was raised by Tywin, blood doesn't necessarily play a role in this. And it's the reason I really don't like the TargTwins theory. It kinda implicates they practice incest, are hotheaded, and have the issues they have bc of their Targaryen blood and not because of Tywin, which is not true. Tyrion has his flaws and pros because of Tywin, bc he grew up with him. The Twins have the issues they have bc Tywin raised them believing that the Lannisters are sticking together and no one is as worthy as we are.
@@CompanyOfTheCat perhaps justification is the wrong word but I feel that by making him not his son sort of gives tywin gratification like " oh he was right because he wasn't actually his son " of course he's wrong regardless but you get what I mean I think it would just send the wrong message.
@@CompanyOfTheCat I'm not sure we can blame Tywin for the twins, since he was often at court when they were young and would naturally have delegated their raising to Joanna (and she is the one who catches them 'experimenting'). To be sure they were raised to be useful pieces of Tywin's plans, but their incestuous tendencies seem to be rooted more in Cersei's astounding narcissism than any traditional idea of 'love'. I think that, rather than these issues being caused by Tywin's parenting, rather they were allowed to blossom because he DIDN'T raise them outside of what he specifically considered useful. Tyrion, then, is a copy of Tywin because in forcing Tyrion through all of the humiliations and challenges he challenges him in a way Tywin himself was challenged to escape from his own father's shadow.
I also dislike the 'Tyrion Targaryen' theory because it firstly requires Joanna to not say anything/abort the pregnancy, and then for the very proud and very merciless Tywin to not kill Tyrion then and there- or, if he had no specific proof, to use the mere accusation to break the rule of Aerys II and FORCE Rhaegar to marry Cersei as recompense/ hatch another plan to have Tyrion acknowledged and raise him as a puppet Targaryen, or any other scheme. As is, Tywin himself is absolutely certain Tyrion is his, and I'm willing to bet he tried hard to find any excuse for that not to be the case.
The pieces are there, but they just don't line up neatly enough for me to lend them weight.
The evidence is there, but it's for the characters, not for us. It creates s chain of circumstances for Tywin to suspect that something is afoot, with the reader only bearing witness to the outcomes of such a bedeviled relationship.
There are some very interesting parallels between the Lannisters and the Targaryens eg. Incest, red as a house colour, ruling out of the red keep ect, and It just occurred to me that the Lannister name “Gerion” sounds like a reference “Tar-Gerion” as well
Yeah, them melting Ice, defeating the grey cold starks, and so on. Even with them being blonde, the parallels are there, just in Tyrion's case I don't know if GRRM goes for parallels only or if there's more.
@@CompanyOfTheCat yeah that’s the interesting part
I feel that's intentional as the lannesters are trying to become the new Targaryens in a way .
the new ironborn intro 🔥
Love the RuPaul Atreides intro
I don't think we'll get an actual answer to this question. I think Tyrion will continue to believe thet he is a Lannister regardless, because I think he is becoming a villain. He will embrace his inner Tywin when he advises Dany and as Jaime struggles to redeem his soiled self, Tyrion will actively arm himself with the malice people always percieved in him because of his appearance.
Also I think that Tyrion not being a Lannister would reduce the dramatic irony of Tywin and Shae and the Chataya tunnel
Yeah, I agree except if something happens with the dragons I don't see us getting an answer. That being said I get both sides, what I am not sure about is GRRM, as another comment said, it looks like that plotline was dropped in the meantime which is kinda weird tbh.
I don't think Tyrion will become a villain gourges whole thing is about criticizing how basterds and dwarfs are treated I don't think it makes much sense to make Tyrion a villain as it would basically be providing those who demonized Tyrion Right about him being a monster especially if he's associated with Dany who isn't just going to have a evil person around her , I see him becoming a blood raven type character instead.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 maybe, but Tyrion has already done many villainous things and i think he will do many more. His main goal was to be loved and respected, and he now seems resigned to be hated instead.
It's very possible that his arc ends with him changing for the better, but he was never a "good guy" to begin with, he was just clever and fun read
@@iwark that's why I think he'll be a blood raven character he'll still have darkness and do morally questionable things but will ultimately not be a full villain.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 yeah, i guess i had forgotten about all the shit bloodraven did.
Χαῖρε! GRRM definitely seemed to be pushing the Tyrion Targ, sub-plot in the early days, but I think he abandoned it after GoT, along with Tyrion's "acrobatic" skills, etc...I prefer him being Tywin's true-born son from a literary perspective, as well. It adds much more depth, breadth and tragedy to the Father-Son relationship. We have enough double-secret switch-a-roo identity "twists" already. I'm also not aware of any Targ dwarf in History either, so making Tyrion the first would be a bit out of place. Cheers!
yay you're back! i am also not a big fan of this theory, mainly because him being Tywin's son and Tywin being in denial of this every single day of Tyrion's life is so much more impactful (to me at least) than him being product of SA. as many people said before, this might have been a dropped plotline. IMO, it might have been re-ignited with the popularity of the tv series in media in general and the focus the directors put on Tyrion (he touched one of dany's dragons, iirc?) thus "completing the big 3" (jon, dany, and tyrion). in the books this last 'head' of the dragon goes to fAegon, who of course we don't know if he's an actual Targ, but the possibility is there. i do find the chymera theory interesting, i thought it was a tinfloil theory but apparently its very plausible. thank you Cat!
Yay! What a great Friday treat! Much love and many thanks Cat 💙🔥
I think Cersei and Jaime are definitely Targaryens but I’m on the fence about Tyrion. Unless he’s a chimera of course. cut open that cat. Maegor butchered a cat when he was given his first sword. I think it’s poetic that Jaime killed his father to save the realm and then actually sat the throne for a few minutes before Ned got there. Cersei is so mad for wildfyre it’s like she’s possessed by Aerys II’s ghost. But I also feel like Tyrion is going to ride a dragon. Maybe not.
Personally, I find the TargTwins very problematic mostly and that completely destroys the commentary on generational trauma in the books.
Some of the "proofs" people use for Jaime and Cersei are their flaws. Obsession with fire for Cersei, incest, hotheadedness, etc. Everything bad Jaime and Cersei have is because of a person they hardly interact with, Aerys and this really doesn't sit well with me. Same with Tyrion being only like that (flaws and pros), bc he is by blood Tywin's" and not because he was the person that raised him.
The whole series is generational drama and trauma it's a very bad circle that still continues and people who hadn't even met their old relatives pay for their mistakes. I really don't like if in the end is "Well, if it's in your blood...", bc this is not true, nurture plays a much bigger role than nature. Tyrion is his son, bc he grew up with him. He has his issues and positive traits because of his upbringing same as Cersei and Jaime. Attributing the bad and positive traits of the kids to blood is what gives a pass to Tywin. The Twins have the issues they have bc Tywin raised them believing that "The Lannisters are sticking together and no one is as worthy as we are" not because they are Targaryens.
Omg, she is alive!
She recently was on a cool stream on the disputed lands channel
A big problem in this conversation is that Dragon Dreams and dreaming with dragons aren't synonyms. The former is supernatural, while the letter is a dream with dragons. Tyrion has the 1st, some Targaryens have the 2nd.
Oh I agree, with that, that being said though the whole "They like the fire I can feel it" is weird.
It's not a big problem. Even without that small detail, there are enough other hints of Tyrion being a potential Targaryen bastard
@@pankratos5017 the timeline fits better for the twins to be Targaryens than Tyrion.
@@jgr7487 Not really, no. If Aerys was doing stuff to Joanna at the beginning of her marriage with Tywin, which is why Rhaella dismissed Joanna from the position in the first place, we are talking about 263 AC. In the world book it indicated that after the first night and maybe some months after that, Joanna was in King's Landing, but left for Casterly Rock where she remained for years. Cersei and Jaime were born in 266, three years after Tywin's and Joanna's marriage.
Tyrion's birth aligns with her visit where we learn Aerys wouldn't let them leave. I personally want all the kids to be Tywin's but the twins' timeline doesn't make much sense.
@@NotAnotherAccount735 For Tyrion to be a Targ, he had to be conceived in one of these fast visits. For the twins to be Targaryens, they could have been conceived any time between Joanna's first arrival at KL and her dismissal.
I'm gonna watch this on loop all day to try and save my sanity. Debate? What debate?
Ehhh…it’s hard. The story is best when he IS Tywins son. But…the tail rumors, the dragon dreams, the mismatched eyes? I feel like at the very minimum, we’re supposed to think about it - whether it’s true or not
Yay I'm welcomed back!
Δεν δίνεις συχνά βίντεο, αλλά όταν το κάνεις το παρακάνεις. Πολύ ωραία ανάλυση. Τα είπες όλα. Ευχαριστούμε.
Tywin didn't quit as Hand until after Aerys took Jaime away from him. Had he had any reason to believe that this missapen "thing" that killed his wife was not his, he would have Tyrion smothered in his crib and left Kings Landing. Contributing to the death of his beloved wife would be, in my eyes, the greater crime against Tywin. Taking away his heir, although insulting and the last straw, was fixable overall - Tywin just had to remarry and sire more sons (why didn't he anyway?). But Tywin suffers Tyrion because he is his son. He might fight the truth of it in his mind because Tyrion is not the type of legacy Tywin wishes to be associated with, but he kept him and educated him like a little Lord. I don't think he would've married him to Sansa if he worried about any Targaryen traits coming through in the children. Lannisters trying to claim Winterfell with a purple eyed and silver haired grandson of Lord Eddard?
The fact that out of all his children, Tyrion is the most like Tywin adds an interesting layer to their relationship. And dreaming about power and freedom, which what dragons would represent, sounds about right for a family pariah. And it was pointed out before that such textual 'clues' drop after book 1 (?), so maybe George considered it but decided not to pursue? There is plenty of characters with double or possible double and secret identities that adding Tyrion would make the trope a cliche.
I love the idea that both theories are true - that NONE of Tywin's kids are his, so that he who was so obsessed with family legacy has nothing
A new Company of the Cat video?! Let me grab my cat 🐈 for my lap! 👀
Lmfao, loved the way this video opened! Haha
Tyrion's a chimera, duh (lol I do actually believe it's possible he is a twin born of both Tywin and Aerys). My step sister had twins from two different fathers, so it's not as nonsensical or uncommon as people might first believe....
Yeah, I also find this quite possible
Jamie and Cersie being Targ bastards actually has more appeal to me.
Tyrion being his only trueborn son and as a hidden explanation of the twins incest in addition
If anything, it makes an interesting contrast between Jon and Tyrion in the sense that Jon may very well be Rhaegar's son, but Ned was his "real" father, considering how significantly Ned shaped the man Jon grew to become. In a weird way, you could also say it causes Jon to be Ned's "true" son in terms of the substance of his character. This creates an interesting parallel for Tyrion and Tywin, potentially. That being said, my emotions appeal to Tyrion being a true born Lannister by blood, but I don't hate the alternative.
I'm about 25% of the way into a feast for crows and i can safely say, IDK. I don't really look at things analytically :( but i do like Tyrion O:
He's more likely to be part Martell, in my opinion. He didn't get partially black hair from either Tywin or Aerys and we know Lewyn had a secret lover.
Great to see you back!
What do you think about Tywin's other daughter, Marei?
I wouldn't find it weird if Tywin had a daughter, but I don't see her having a point in the story tbh. I think she is mostly there to point out the possible hypocrisy of Tywin if indeed she is his.
Chimera, like the dragons.
Thought he might be a Chimera. He could have an absorbed half twin inside of him. Like Magor.
He's the Chimera, the lion dragon, and for the goat, Shagga is the goat.
I don’t like him being a Targaryen because it completely cheapens Tywin and Tyrion’s dynamic.
I don't subscribe to the theory but there are two things I like about it
1 I always feel bad for Daenerys having no family left so her suddenly getting Tyrion and jon would be great for her and for them too (Tyrion finally gets a good sister ) it's too happy and hopeful I know but it's just a silly wish of mine
2 George always mirrors Dany with Cersei, despite Dany being the mad king's daughter it's Cersei who's mad like him and shares many if his attributes while Dany is the opposite now imagine if Tyrion is Aerys' son and Cersei of course is tywin's and yet Cersei is the mad king come again and Tyrion is all the best qualities of tywin, the irony of it all is hilarious
I had no idea this was coming! Its like Christmas for me as I'm big on this theory lol. If you ever can be bothered and have the time I'd love to see your take on the Tyrion chimaera theory that kis kind of related to this theory. For me that is a really fun one and it fits with at least my take of asoiaf.
If it's really dumb no worries! x
Chimera Tyrion is my favorite tinfoil if not proven wrong is canon 😂
Please lets not Forget ; Just Like Jon , Even if Tyrion is not a Lannister from Tywins Side. He’s Still a Lannister On his Mothers Side. Just like Jon getting it From Lyanna
Honestly think it be better if Cersei and Jaime turned out to be the Targaryen whilst Tyrion was Tywin’s Son through and through
If Tyrion is a Targaryen than he Ironically is the one Lannister child who's not inbred. Jaime and Tyrion would have unknowingly killed each other's fathers. And those early conversations with Jon at Winterfell take on a whole knew dynamic. Not only would Jon and Tyrion be family, they would both be a "son" of a lord paramount who is not biologically a the son of that lord paramount. They would also both be greatly influenced by the father whom raised them.
I mean all people are influenced by the parents who raised them. This is my main issue with the twins being Targaryen theory. Whoever is Tyrion's natural father doesn't really matter, bc his flaws and pros are directly linked to how Tywin raised him. Even if he is not biologically his father, he is way more of his son, than Jaime and Cersei and even outsiders can spot it.
On the other side, Cersei and Jaime are often speculated to be Targaryens according to flaws that were inherited from a person they hardly knew as opposed to Tywin's sh*tty parenting.
@@CompanyOfTheCat The twins definitely have Targaryen symbolism, but I agree that they're probably not Targaryen, and for the same reasons. Cersei is going mad like Aries and if she tries to burn everything that will put Jaime is a similar but worse situation to the one he was in before. Cersei is also taking on Robert's bad habits of drinking and becoming abusive in a similar manner to Robert. She's falling into the pitfalls of people she's criticized and pretends to have more ability than.
not the drag race bit in the beginning 😂😂😂
I quote it on the daily 😂
its a red herring, almost too obvious. in the books an aunt says nah, tyrion is tywin's son even more than jaime. tyrion is lann the clever reborn, the lannister thinker/planner/schemer
I mean yes, but he is also a Lannister from his mother's side as well let's not forget that the mother matters just as much, she was Tywin's first cousin who looked like a female version of himself (very Jaime, and Cersei of him btw).
Lann was also said to be a bastard by a woman who was unlucky in love with hair as golden as the sun, Rowan Goldtree. It's ok to not like the theory, I myself don't rip my panties for another secret Targaryen, but at least in the first book looks like George was building on something, and in the meantime, he dropped it. At this point in the novels, both paths could work.
It's obvious Tywin-cope. Surely, my perfect Joanna and I, with our pure(!) Lannister-blood could never have produced such a horrid little creature. Must be that freak Aerys!
And also Tyrion, not Cersei, is the one who is truly like their father.
Lol the guy who killed his father over a candlemakers daughter is most like Tywin. SuRe😂
Ok I only finished it now and here are my two cents:
I've never felt particularly strongly about this theory either and I kind of did not get why this was such a strong subject of debate. I agree with your points how Tyrion being Aerys' bastard would not have diminished the themes nor Tyrion-Tywin relationship as much as it is claimed by the opponents of this theory. I do believe that the most likely explanation is that Tyrion Targaryen was an early development George considered, but might have scrapped, hence why I think there's so much evidence of it AGOT, but it kind of diminishes as the series progresses.
My favorite tinfoil that would sort of give us the best of both worlds is Tyrion being a human chimera. I'm no biologist, but I believe it is possible for two zygotes with distinct DNA to merge. It's very rare, but it does happen. Thus, Tyrion would have both Lannister and Targaryen DNA.
Same, the chimera is my favorite theory tinfoil or not, I don't care😂
I also 100% agree that it looks like a dropped plot line, that I can easily see going both ways and I always found it very fascinating how many people disagree with this one, bc the "Targaryen Twins" is the real villain of a theory if you ask me. I don't see people being that opposed to it, like yes there are many people who do not like it or agree with Cersei and Jaime being Aerys', but at least in the places where I have been there is not that much pushback as with Tyrion.
@@CompanyOfTheCat we should be allowed a little tinfoil, as a treat
I was thinking about the kinslayer theory, that most people that become one also loose their vitality/life and their fertility (like the Grey King, Stannis and maybe Theon and Robb too)
If Tyrion was a Lannister and killed his father, maybe he would be gaunt and greying by now in the books, but I agree that it can go both ways and it would be ok
Tyrion would still be Tywin's kin in both cases, his mother was Tywin's cousin
I was going to comment that, Tyrion is still very much Lannister, the question is more on both sides or not? The whole Kinslaying and greying is a thing, but it's an actual physical consequence when magic is involved. Theon is a very different thing, but for Stannis magic was heavily involved, it looks like he gave part of his soul.
I would not consider Tyrion to be like Tywin but he definetly had the mind and character traits Tywin would want in Jaime, loyal, brave, intelligent and cunning.
But Tyrion also has a trait that Tywin definetly despises, empathy.
Tyrion is a great leader and manager but NOT a good politician. Tyrion lacks political ambition and i think some people conflate being a leader with being a politician, those are very different things. Tyrion is not a player in the game of thrones
Agree and disagree with that. Tyrion is not a player, yes, but not because he cannot, but because he doesn't really care about it. He definitely can be a very good player if he says I want to do that. He does have the brains that Tywin valued and under completely different circumstances Tyrion easily could have been Tywin's golden child.
@@CompanyOfTheCat if he wants to yes but Tyrion does not want to. Tyrion only took charge of Kings Landing because he wanted his father's approval, Tyrion now lacks any motivation to even consider being a player.
He doesnt really have empathy, tho. He wants to be liked and he understands that there are other ways to rule than by the fist.
He is a 1%er who whines about asshole-dad to a girl his henchman stole for him to fuck. When he finally hits rock bottom he still cannot relate to someone who even has the same physical challenges as himself.
He's simply more vulnerable than Tywin but his empathy is superficial at best, narcisistic and self-serving at worst.
Jaime and Cersei Are Made Kings Children
That spotted border around the screen triggers my brain so bad. I am constantly thinking it's the RUclips time bar, with a myriad of chapters. Horrible.
I needed somethins so HBO wouldn't copyright again😂
@@CompanyOfTheCat I suggest to use something else 😬
Maybe some nice dragon pictures in the corners or something
I hope he is just a smart dwarf not some secret dragon spawn
I am gonna be ok either way, I just need George to drop twow at this point😂
Yeah, welcome back! and you choose one of the most annoying topics of discussion of the fandom.
you go girl!
great vid!
I like the story better if Tyrion is Tywin‘s son and Jamie and Cersei are Targaryen bastards.
I am the opposite, the Tyrion Targaryen is a completly neutreual possibility, the twins being part Targaryens, on the other side, really doesn't sit well with me 😂
wake up babe, CotC just dropped
WE'RE EATING GOOD TODAY
❤
Umm. Yes he is targaryian . His father didnt keep him because he liked him. Omg
For me i think it's weird how you think that tyrion being targ have more possibilty than jaime and cersei.
I think it's totatlly bad writing if iy after all the similar things between tyrion and tywin to turn out that he is not his son, his aunt litteraly told jaime tyrion is tywin son not you
@@NANINANI-cs6rn because we are going to a territory I find very problematic mostly. Oh everything bad Jaime and Cersei have (incest, hot headedness etc) are because of a person they hardly interacted with, Aerys. And Tyrion is only like that, bc he is by blood Tywin's and not because he was the person that raised him.
The whole series is genational drama and trauma, and I really don't like if in the end is "Well, if it's in your blood...", bc this is not true, nurture plays a much bigger role than nature. Tyrion's is his son, bc he grew up with him.
Twin studies have been done and nature plays a bigger role than nurture. Like identical twins being raised by vastly different families and ending up with almost identical intelligence and level of achievement. Also the whole series is about magical blood and inheriting "madness" and physical looks and behaviour from your ancestors. Like Arya was raised by Ned who is different from Lyanna and Brandon yet Arya is like Lyanna and looks like her because they share the same blood.@@CompanyOfTheCat
Ayeeee!! We both uploaded on the same day 😊
I did a Game Of Thrones and A Quiet Place crossover if you want to check it out haha
I have zero idea about A Quite place, but I will😂
Tywin did recognize Tyrion's skills. Show Tywin sent Tyrion to King's Landing to bring to heel Geoffrey and Cersi. He knew that Tyrion would be up to the task, and Tyrion was up to the task. Once the task was completed, once Tyrion out manuvered Cersi, saved King's Landing and the Lannister Monarchy from Stannis, Tywin diminished Tyrion once more while Tyrion recovered from his injuries. In effect, Tywin informed him that even skilled leadership and strategic cunning would not save him from Tywin's wrath. Tyrion could never redeem himself in Tywin's eyes. Olena Tyrell and Cersi's treachery and paranoia doomed Tyrion. Tywin, the man with truly low cunning, made use of this opportunity to rid himself of his son. But, Tyrion, foiled this plan, escaped but not before ending Tywin's life. Tyrion killed his father not for Tywin's many crimes he committed against him, but for calling Tysha a whore, for implanting that posionious thought in Tyrion's mind. Tysha was the only person who loved him unconditionally. She gave him what he wanted and needed. For Tywin, Tyrion should not have anything prideful and humane in his life. Tyrion would be wretched and know that he was wretched.
Oh, and I also suspect Tyrion is half Targaryan. The tell for me was Dany's imprisoned dragons did not eat him while he attempted to free them. Her dragons liked Jon Snow also.
Tywin sent Tyrion to King's Landing to make a mess of things so it would be easier for Tywin to take control. Tyrion accomplished this task marvellously.
@@alex52043 Tyrion saved King's Landing with inadequate forces to succeed. That's not Tyrion making a mess of things. That's Tyrion succeeding magnificently! Tyrion also out manuvered Cersi and Geoffrey. Tywin sent Tyrion to do just that.
I don't believe a plausible case can be made that Tyrion failed as the Hand of the King. Indeed, he succeeded even though everyone knew he was a place-holder, had Cersi and Geoffrey as enemies, did not have a large army, etc.
In the end, Tyrion greatly bloodied Stannis and killed Tywin, the formidle foes he had to master to stay alive.
@@sdzielinski Tywin and the Tyrells saved King's Landing. Tyrion led a poorly considered sortie that nearly got him killed.
How the hell is turning on your only potential ally in the city succeeding magnificently? Tywin played his family against each other to increase his control and Tyrion failed to actually gain any control over King's Landing, hence his trial and exile. It's only Jaime's kindness and Varys' scheming that allowed Tyrion's survival and Tywin's death.
@@alex52043 Believe what you want. Tywin and the Tyrells left the city poorly defended. Tyrion's strategy saved KL from defeat. Tywin no longer had to take ass whuppins from Robb Stark. Had Tyrion failed, Tywin would have returned to KL just to take ass whuppins from King Stannis.
@@sdzielinski Tywin and the Tyrells attack Stannis' flank and break his assault. Tyrion was losing.
Pre-listen take: tyrion is tywins only child and cersei and jaime are tragayan bastards fathering false kings
Will reply after listening
Post-listen: still think tyrion is tywins son but i do really like some of the themes identified if he were a targaryan. It seems likely to me that the twins were conceived during the liberties taken at the bedding, but i dont see a great reason for tyrions virth not being of tywins loins. That said, while cersei is a dragon in all but name, jaimes dreams do seem to indicate tywin was his father. I am certainly more open to tyrion being a dragon after my listen.
For me, Tyrion is a very weird case of a dropped storyline tbh. I would prefer if all the children were Twyin's tbh, but I am fairly certain that George had in mind to make Tyrion into o Targaryen when the series began. AGOT is full of weird comments and instances of Tyrion, but in later novels, all these "He could feel how the bones liked the fire" were dropped and are something that we won't really get answers either.
About the Twins I will also make a video most likely because this is a theory I don't like personally, I actually think is the theory that gives Tywin's shitty parenting and cruelty a pass, bc all the negative qualities are because of a guy the twins hardly knew when their father also had these tendencies. Marrying his first cousin that looked like him, Lannisters are above the rest mentality and we should stick together, burning and sucking left and right, even Jon Con commented on what Twyin would do at the stony sept and it was "He would have *burned* every living creature in it. Plus, after the World Book, the timeline doesn't fit for the twins to be Aerys', which is probably the best counter-argument IMO. The difference is so big that neither the "George is bad at maths" can fix it.
Aerys allegedly assaulted Joanna at the beginning (some even say during the wedding night) of her marriage with Tywin, which is why Rhaella dismissed Joanna from the position in the first place, this took place in 263 AC. In the world book, it is stated that Joanna was in King's Landing and left very soon after her wedding, and she remained for years in Casterly Rock. If her dismissal was very shortly after their wedding in 263, as all sources claim, we are talking about 263 max early 264 and the twins were born in 266. The timeline is all over the place.
On the other hand, Joanna was in KL in 272 for the first time in years and stayed there for quite some time with Tywin, where we learn how crude he was towards her and how Aerys allegedly assaulted her once again, with Aerys keeping them in the palace when they wanted to leave. And in 273 she gave birth to Tyrion.
That was a whole essay, sorry about that xD. Thanks for watching💞
@CompanyOfTheCat wow the timeline is super helpful as i never read the worldbook. My only question on that would be how long is a westerosi year is it the same length as an earth year? I assume it is, but there is no reason it should be with the screwed up orbit of planetos. That being said, i am now more convinced the twins are tywins, but how does cersei get explained. Just randomly insane?
Tyrion is not just a dragon, he will be the last dragon.