Really Enjoyed your test on rpm versus power versus heat. Some of the modifications to the mufflers that I thought would increase or decrease the variables did the opposite. Very interesting! This is the first video of yours I have watched and I can’t wait to go back through your old ones. Possibly some of the heat rise detected after 30 seconds comes from less air circulation at the lower rpm. Just saying, from my obviously lower IQ level. I can tell from this first video you have well lubed high speed wheels turning in your mind as apposed to my old rusted ones. I really enjoy hearing good old country folk ingenuity. Keep them coming Hay Chaff and Saw Dust. George (Ole Mountain Man).
@georgefernandes3996 You're gunna make my head swell up like a poisoned rat!! I always tell people that my head's just there to keep the rain outta my neck!! I think you're right on the lower cooling ability as it goes back to idle; I think a bigger reason (bear in-mind, I'm a test or two ahead of the videos being posted, so I have some of that insider information... don't tell anyone) is that the thermocouple is mounted in a steel plug and the heat wasn't transferred to the thermocouple within 30 seconds... it wasn't heat-saturated... or hadn't reached equilibrium yet... hadn't planed-out. Thanks so much for joining-in. Try not to be too disappointed with some of my earlier videos... video quality and editing was way worse than the sub-par level it is at this point. If you want to see how it REALLY is around here, watch the Apple Pie making video... it ain't chainsaws, but if you wanna see my pet possum an just the general mood around here.... Well, let's just say that retirement is great and I don't take myself too serious.
I'm late and feel like I missed all fun. You are just killing this dyno work. Love seeing you getting so excited about the project, but let's stay below the rubbing it in your hair level please! Sure were some surprises with the mufflers. That baffle thing was unexpected. Guessing the baffle keeps some the atmospheric pressure from getting back to exhaust port at lower rpm. I really think a stinger will change things over just the hole. If I get a vote I want a longer stinger with more pipe inside than out. Not sure about the short runs for the temp readings. I know you have to call it somewhere but I would like to see it start leveling off and 30 seconds seems like you are still on the steep part of the curve. I know that running my biggest saw, tuned on the fat side, it takes well more than 30 seconds to really get heat soaked. Even when it cools more than a few minutes between cuts it takes some time. Like you, I like 'em fat. Keep having fun and doing great work. We are all learning here. Thanks for sharing!
@Kevin.L_ You're not late yet; you just waited to "make an entrance"! I concur that a stinger will help, but I don't know how long of a stinger is needed... I think a stinger would be needed longer than that which is available OUTSIDE of the muffler; so yes, you can have your way!!! 🎁 🎂 ...well, kinda sorta maybe. I'm gunna put as much inside the muffler as I think will not be prohibitive and leave enough sticking out to do some testing and cutting. Already got one built that sticks out a get couple inches past the side of the saw... probably 10" worth of stinger in-all. Go big or go home, right??!! I got to recollecting best I could, and I know dang good and well that I've been in the cut pulling hard for far over 30 seconds... heck, the pieces of wood in my profile pic took a few minutes each and I didn't let 'em come up for air much; dang sure didn't let 'em cool off any. Keep on putting suggestions out!!!! Seems like we already concur on most stuff, but I'm hoping (sooner or later) we can argue about *SOMETHING*!!!!!! 😉🤣
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 A while back we could have argued about your backward dyno plots, but after looking at them enough times I don't even notice anymore. I'm sure something else will come up soon enough.
This is fantastic content.. My thoughts on muffler mods and losing power is lots of times depending on timing numbers, exhaust port size and restriction. Charge being blown out the exhaust port is very real with overly done muff mods. Maybe it’s a change in volume or crankcase comp the saw needs. A 2-stroke is all about scavenging. Keeping that charge in there just long enough to burn and then pushing it out using fresh. The wrong muffler mod can throw that off. Anyways cool stuff I enjoy testing and then testing more. It only makes us all better at this.
@Houseworksaws Thanks!! I agree and will also offer that my test results can be (and should be) viewed with a skeptical eye in that, with a two stroke, everything is tied to something else. While I'm claiming to only change *ONE* thing, one mechanical/physical change makes so many changes in the cause/effect world of two strokes... such as muffler port opening effecting blowdown needs/requirements. Thanks for offering your insight!!
@MikeLouder1 Thanks Mike; Hope we don't bore Jane to tears, but it sure is a lot of fun and somewhat eye-opening for me! Glad you got your commenting device working.
@joecasatelli4825 Thanks for the kind words and, especially, for joining-in with us! All of us are looking forward to having you with us as we move forward.
Your test mirrors mine. The baffle in aftermarket muffler on my 066 Flattop in my avatar picture broke off one day while I was felling timber. I removed the broken baffle out of the muffler and had to retune the saw. The saw had noticeably less power pulling a 32" bar in Hard Maple without the baffle the rest of the day. That night I put another muffler with a baffle back on that saw. Now I do modify the baffles to be more like the ones in the early 064s but I have found in those saws and my ms461s that they do better with a baffle than without. I have run the muffler just like your original on my 026's for years, it's great to see your test showing that to be a good choice. I look forward to your next set of tests. Keep up the great work!👍
@230e4 Ahhh! Very good; I was trying to consider and had so may thoughts that the video would have been two hours long if I rambled with everything in my mind. I wondered if the baffle works better with smaller outlets out of the muffler. I had considered that a bunch of gasses made it out of the baffle and into the can while a smaller portion was rebounded back into the cylinder; the gasses that made it out were "trapped" on the outside of the baffle and started going out the exit hole and were still going out when the rebound gasses finally escaped the baffle and began leaving. I wondered if, with no baffle, the gasses bounced around like a BB in a fruit jar and couldn't find an efficient way out due to never having a defined path being laid out? I am thinking that, with a large exhaust opening (or especially a little stinger pipe) the baffle would begin to be detrimental instead of functional. I will have to order another can at some point to put a baffle back with the best version(s) of exhaust opening we find. Who knows, the baffle may make *IT* better? Thanks so much for joining-in and giving something for the ol' gray matter to feed upon!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 I agree, like we chatted about before on the 372xp with a pipe in the muffler and no baffle. There are so many things to consider and test. Always interesting.
Quite impressive the amount of experiments your doing to eventually finding a desired result, it will be interesting to see and watch the Other mods/pipes you put in the testing, as always have fun
@diggindiggenit6540 Thanks Diggin'; this exhaust thing could run into a pandora's box. Each time I test 3 or 4, I think of 5 or 6 ways that THOSE need tested. Can't help but have fun!! Thanks! As always, enjoy your comment(s) and glad you find time to join-in with encouragement.
@coxsaws Thank you Jonathan! It's cheap, but ALL home-cobbled... including the software/program, so the compliment is means more than for something I bought!
@user-ur1vy1bf2i Thanks Eoin!! I am happy you found us and am extra happy you joined-in! Ireland!!?? Welcome; last time I was near Ireland, I was headed to Norway about 30+ years ago. Beautiful from what I can recall.
@FarmlessFarmer-xs1he Thanks Farmless!! It will work on some saws and not on others; it was sort-of hard to do on this one even because there was no provisions for the decomp in the cover (never had one before), so the probe was difficult to cram under the lid. Some saws will not have the provision for decomp. For the most-part, I do believe I've stumbled on a decent idea for once 🤣😉 Hope all going well with ya!!
In regards to exhaust volume(space) and or back pressure, I do know that I had an inline 6, bored and stroked in an xJ, there was a big difference in felt torque, noticeable between an open free flowing full length exhaust and running it open at the Y pipe. I’m hopeful that we will be able to see this, and possibly even use this theory to move your peak torque to a higher rpm. I have a few different pipe ideas. Fabulous shop stool!
@Archer_82 Like you, I'm hopeful we will be see it. I know scavenging can have a huge effect. When I ran (antique) pulling tractor and I had a pto dyno to check progress, a longer 2" pipe pulled WAAY better than a shorter 3" pipe... even though the 3" pipe was CHROMED?? 🤷♂️ I would have bet money that the chrome would've added 20%. I like the stool as well; might oughta give myself a tetanus shot before use it too much 🤣😉
Great content and a joy to watch as usual. Maybe just put an alligator clip on the spare/ground wire. Boy you sure are high tech. Love the chair too!! Muffler magic. I've always gutted them put a hole in an upper corner or both. I feel like the exhaust comes out for reverb and what bounces back hits exhaust coming out and spreads from there. I maybe totally off but seems logical to me. I'm not a smart man though. 😆
@eze7524.Morning_Wood_Farms You, Forest Guu-uump, and I all have that in-common! I'm like you in that I gut the can and make a hole in one or more corners and of varying size (depending how I'm feeling that day). I was awful surprised at *ONLY* gutting the can raised heat and lost HP; gained HP back at a faster rate than gaining heat upon drilling larger holes. I think we'll continue to drill larger and/or more holes before putting little pipes in the can. I really *think* the outlet pipes help... but I've never tested it before. I'm confident in my heat readings, but no necessarily confident that I am loading from a proper amount of time and whatnot. I'm putting a load to the saw to pull it down to 10k (ish) and getting temp to 250; once it hits 250, I record for 30 seconds. Reckon that's ok or should not start recording until 300 or ?? ... or load longer??? This is brand-new ground we are all breaking here. Would appreciate your thoughts.
@eze7524.Morning_Wood_Farms Forgot to mention and/or explain properly in the video, The other wire was not a ground or anything; it was actually a second thermocouple connected to another readout; I was wanting to check the temp of the aluminum fins as well as the plug as I assumed the fins would raise/lower quicker in temp. The readout HATED the vibration of the thermocouple being transmitted up the wire; as soon as I fired the saw, the readout would shut down; not sure what to do about that yet.
@bluelightguy1 Thanks!! I had high hopes that other people thought so, too... but, my lil ol' pea-brain is easily amused 🤷♂️ . Thanks for being always being here!!
@coxsaws Thanks for the tip, Jonathan. I am not sure (yet) if that will work well for me... the dyno, and the cubby in which it's planted, are pretty rudimentary. I've tried the point-and-shoot thermal handheld thermometers and had a couple of "issues" 1) It takes two hands to run the dyno and my wife won't let me use hers...anymore. 🤣😂 2) I couldn't get a good (accurate, realistic, one that satisfied me?) temp reading with the plastic in the way; I didn't want to run it without the plastic AS a heat test because of the importance of the plastic for cooling; I don't mind running for a bit without plastic for other testing, but heat seemed not-fair? If I could get those two problems sorted (without too much added expense) it might work better. Ideas/thoughts??
Great content as usual . you will be at 1000 subs soon , congrats! The results surprised me (more restriction = more HP???) , it was a dunning kruger moment Would the dyno tests be better with the more free flowing exhaust designs if it was run without the air filter? . I know its not a "real world test" to run it without one but it may give some idea about what could be possible if the air filter design was improved . As you have said , the way it is at the moment is holding it back . I was going to modify a aftermarket exhaust that just came through the post , and copy what gives the best results . I still will but i'll wait a while and see what exhaust style you end up sticking with . i'll do the base gasket delete soon as well
@containerseightandnine9756 The results of the baffle also surprised me! I agree on the Dunning Kruger (and I want to brag that I didn't even have to look that one up; been using the comparison for years too) I think the dyno results will start showing more HP after the exhaust begins to open up a bit; at some point, it will start to go back down if/when it gets opened too much. Yes, will get more HP without air filter, but working within means right now. There will probably be 2-3 videos-worth of exhaust mods before we get to air filter mods, ign timing, rings, etc... The next video (shot but needs edited) has 3 very different exhaust mods; the video after that will be same mods with bigger/different shapes/sizes of outlet. Bear with me; it's getting more daylight, so I have less time to "play" Will probably only get one Saw vid per week and one of something else (sawmill, hay equip, etc..) Not as much time to spend in saw shop. Thanks for being here and joining-in!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 no problem , I appreciate the tests you have done , I have definitely learned a lot by watching them and I know it must be time consuming . You have probably took the cylinder off and put it back more than 10 times by now. And then editing videos is a pain as well 👍
I have a suspicion that there will always be a spike after you idle the saw because you drastically cut the cooling once at idle. I could be wrong but that's what I think is happening.
@@mattfleming86 Exactly. I idle my equipment for a minute or two before shutting down if I'm done running them. Two reasons... cooling and in two strokes it leaves more oil in the bottom end to hopefully keep things lubed up in between usage.
Same thought here, under heavy load, you have all that fresh air/fuel in the case flowing through the bottom and, and the flywheel spinning 10k or whatever. Then it heat soaks at idle.
@MrJeepfreak1972 There's a thought. Like you, not sure if it's right or not... same thing happens with vehicles and tractors though. You can shut a tractor down (even after idling) and watch the temp gauge rise for a bit afterwards (and probably car, but a car's temp gauge generally doesn't work after cutting power) That's a thought!! Thanks
I wonder what it would do if you did the 30 sec run, then idle for 30 or what ever and run a second time for 30 like it would with back to back cuts. Removing the baffling reduced thermal mass. Less heat sink means more heat. I wonder if it would be the same after multiple cycles like bucking a log up for firewood
@jasentonguepowersaws4206 I'm with you, I was thinking of multiple runs back to back or a longer pull to give the engine's temp time to stabilize. I with I knew a "safe" temp to run a saw, but we're breaking new ground here (outside of Factor R&D, I expect) I think the proof-of-concept was valid and hopeful. I/we ALL just need to figure how to apply/use it properly. I like your suggestion. I think the baffle is going to need more exploring; I intend to make the can's cover the best I can and THEN go back to a baffle and see how it reacts. Commonly accepted knowledge would say to get the baffle out... I still lean that way, but am not as sure as I once was. Love the ideas/thoughts!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 looking forward to future results. I sure wish I had access to a dyno like yours for my saws. Would really help dialing in my recipes!
@jasentonguepowersaws4206 Mine's a home-brew operation; considerably less than $200 in it; of course, I'm a hoarder and had many of the pieces-parts needed to build it. I'm sure you can build one just as easily or easier than I. Hardest part with building the sprocket, but I've got that figured out and am happy to share sometime.
How that top horse power can now be 4.3hp when lates video it was 3.72hp. Did I miss something here. I also lost a bit what is Bark Box and did I understand right that if you remove those inner parts from muffler you will loose power? Unbelievable result if I understood it right
@AnttiKoivunen-im9us I assume the videos are out of order in the playlist; I put them in as I make/release videos and I make the videos in-order; I think the RUclips's computer may arrange them differently?? The "Bark Box" is a style of muffler cover sold by WestCoastSaw.com and is similar to the Egan Straight Shot sold by EganPerformanceSaws.com I welded my own "bark box". I agree that the removal of the baffle causing LESS power was astonishing to me, too!! After a LONG TIME of contemplating it, I think I know/understand the reason!! A properly shaped baffle can effect the amount of volume that remains in front of the exhaust port. If there's too much volume at too high of a pressure, the "stuffing" of the little bit of intake charge back into the cylinder. Too little pressure and volume does nothing for the "stuffing" effect. It helped me to picture an Ironhorse pipe as JUST the baffle with a discharge pipe instead of little holes that leak into a bigger chamber. I have it sorted out in my mind to the point of having a slight understanding, but not well enough to explain it very well. I sure enjoy communicating with you!! Thank you,
I think you're seeing temperature increase after the poll. Just because the flow is stopped and it's heat.Soaking, the temperature is rising 'cause the flow is not moving the hot stuff out. Just like when you shut your saw off. After running the temp in the muffler would actually increase for a minute before it started.Cooling, just because the flow was not evacuating, the heat.
@samhiss6807 I think the "problem" is two-fold. There is a little bit of lag between the combustion chamber heating and the thermocouple (mounted in a decomp plug) catching up; it does tend to get a little hotter for a moment. I have actually started doing a 3-minute run to let everything catch up and stabilize. You're right though; even after a 3 minute run and the temp has stabilized, the temp will increase for a couple of seconds before it begins to cool. It's ruined me... I can no longer shut off a saw that's hot; I always let them idle for a bit now. Good point; thanks for joining-in and mentioning it!!
@TheJohnDeereGuy Going well; sawed @1500 BF of lumber for an order last couple of days. Thanks for the compliment! As much as all of us he-men of the world don't "need" to hear it, it is nice from time to time. Thank you sir!
Another thought... Its my understanding that two rings have two benefits. One, the piston is more stable in the bore and two, they keep the piston cooler as the rings transfer much of the piston heat to the cylinder walls. If that is in fact true, you may see higher temps in a two ring saw in your readings but it might not mean that its hotter internally. The piston might be cooler with two rings vs the one ring unit. Probably no way for the average home test fella to verify that.
@MrJeepfreak1972 I like it!!! After a spell, one might see more skirt wear with one ring; but like you say, it would be hard to test evenly as you would have to run two different saws the exact same for hundred(s) hours possibly before it was noticeable? The piston temp is going to be impossible for me to quantify I believe. I also agree (to a point) to the school of thought that the two ring setup has twice the friction as a one ring, but I also consider that there could be nearly the same friction in that the friction is divided between two rings. Not sure that I even believe my own thoughts in that the ring tension would be the same on all three rings. We may be discussing this until the cows come home! (and I love the exchange of ideas). I do hope that there is a measurable difference between the two so that we can all argue about the cause of the difference. Dang, I love this!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 I see your thought process here. Its like running a fat tire in sand vs skinny. There is less pressure on the ground with the wider tire because there's more surface area. Another thought is the second ring doesn't see much compression, if the top ring is in correct working order, so it gets much less of the forces that push the rings out against the walls when firing. So the friction of the top ring, at least until the exhaust opens, should be significantly higher after which they should be roughly the same until compression builds on the pistons way back up. Once the ports are closed on the compression part of the stroke, I'd think the top ring, once again has more friction as the pressure is pushing the ring out against the walls.
@MrJeepfreak1972 I think your points are valid (as usual); since we're starting down the rabbit hole of the two ring thing... the school of thought about there being no oil (gas/oil mix) between the rings thereby causing more friction on the bottom ring while going up and the top ring while going down... is that valid *OR* is there plenty entering between the rings while the gap is exposed to the transfers?
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 I've had close to a 100 saws apart in the last few years just as a hobbyist. In my observation, the driest area on a piston, outside of the crown, is the area above the top ring. I see plenty of lubrication on the rings themselves and in between the rings on two ring pistons with good oils.
@MrJeepfreak1972 I would concur with your findings. I had always considered that the area over the top ring was due to being part of the combustion area. Have seen some theory about squish band controlling the combustion and lack of quick combustion at the outside of the cylinder; it leaves a cooler area at the cyl wall and top/edge of piston; would be interesting to try to see that on the tests too, but I don't know how to isolate the results because if I change squish band, I will effect compression, HP, and too many other things to be able to point a finger as a cause/effect. We may have opened a bucket of worms here!!! I hope!!!!!!!!!
@z1berzerker That is a hazard of my previous job and my inability to remember names; seen your "handle" and THOUGHT the name was Joe, but wasn't sure enough to type it out 🤣😉 Love it... I don't want called "sir" either!!
@z1berzerker I've spent my life giving and/or receiving orders and expecting them to be followed... but that's not what I want to say to you Joe... with sincerity, I thank you for your service!
Really Enjoyed your test on rpm versus power versus heat. Some of the modifications to the mufflers that I thought would increase or decrease the variables did the opposite. Very interesting! This is the first video of yours I have watched and I can’t wait to go back through your old ones. Possibly some of the heat rise detected after 30 seconds comes from less air circulation at the lower rpm. Just saying, from my obviously lower IQ level. I can tell from this first video you have well lubed high speed wheels turning in your mind as apposed to my old rusted ones. I really enjoy hearing good old country folk ingenuity. Keep them coming Hay Chaff and Saw Dust. George (Ole Mountain Man).
@georgefernandes3996 You're gunna make my head swell up like a poisoned rat!! I always tell people that my head's just there to keep the rain outta my neck!!
I think you're right on the lower cooling ability as it goes back to idle; I think a bigger reason (bear in-mind, I'm a test or two ahead of the videos being posted, so I have some of that insider information... don't tell anyone) is that the thermocouple is mounted in a steel plug and the heat wasn't transferred to the thermocouple within 30 seconds... it wasn't heat-saturated... or hadn't reached equilibrium yet... hadn't planed-out.
Thanks so much for joining-in. Try not to be too disappointed with some of my earlier videos... video quality and editing was way worse than the sub-par level it is at this point. If you want to see how it REALLY is around here, watch the Apple Pie making video... it ain't chainsaws, but if you wanna see my pet possum an just the general mood around here.... Well, let's just say that retirement is great and I don't take myself too serious.
I'm late and feel like I missed all fun. You are just killing this dyno work. Love seeing you getting so excited about the project, but let's stay below the rubbing it in your hair level please!
Sure were some surprises with the mufflers. That baffle thing was unexpected. Guessing the baffle keeps some the atmospheric pressure from getting back to exhaust port at lower rpm. I really think a stinger will change things over just the hole. If I get a vote I want a longer stinger with more pipe inside than out.
Not sure about the short runs for the temp readings. I know you have to call it somewhere but I would like to see it start leveling off and 30 seconds seems like you are still on the steep part of the curve. I know that running my biggest saw, tuned on the fat side, it takes well more than 30 seconds to really get heat soaked. Even when it cools more than a few minutes between cuts it takes some time. Like you, I like 'em fat.
Keep having fun and doing great work. We are all learning here. Thanks for sharing!
@Kevin.L_ You're not late yet; you just waited to "make an entrance"! I concur that a stinger will help, but I don't know how long of a stinger is needed... I think a stinger would be needed longer than that which is available OUTSIDE of the muffler; so yes, you can have your way!!! 🎁 🎂 ...well, kinda sorta maybe. I'm gunna put as much inside the muffler as I think will not be prohibitive and leave enough sticking out to do some testing and cutting. Already got one built that sticks out a get couple inches past the side of the saw... probably 10" worth of stinger in-all. Go big or go home, right??!!
I got to recollecting best I could, and I know dang good and well that I've been in the cut pulling hard for far over 30 seconds... heck, the pieces of wood in my profile pic took a few minutes each and I didn't let 'em come up for air much; dang sure didn't let 'em cool off any.
Keep on putting suggestions out!!!! Seems like we already concur on most stuff, but I'm hoping (sooner or later) we can argue about *SOMETHING*!!!!!! 😉🤣
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 A while back we could have argued about your backward dyno plots, but after looking at them enough times I don't even notice anymore. I'm sure something else will come up soon enough.
This is fantastic content.. My thoughts on muffler mods and losing power is lots of times depending on timing numbers, exhaust port size and restriction. Charge being blown out the exhaust port is very real with overly done muff mods. Maybe it’s a change in volume or crankcase comp the saw needs. A 2-stroke is all about scavenging. Keeping that charge in there just long enough to burn and then pushing it out using fresh. The wrong muffler mod can throw that off. Anyways cool stuff I enjoy testing and then testing more. It only makes us all better at this.
@Houseworksaws Thanks!! I agree and will also offer that my test results can be (and should be) viewed with a skeptical eye in that, with a two stroke, everything is tied to something else. While I'm claiming to only change *ONE* thing, one mechanical/physical change makes so many changes in the cause/effect world of two strokes... such as muffler port opening effecting blowdown needs/requirements. Thanks for offering your insight!!
I enjoy your videos! Your "scientific" approach to a tune-up and repower like I did in the old days are truly impressive.
@MikeLouder1 Thanks Mike; Hope we don't bore Jane to tears, but it sure is a lot of fun and somewhat eye-opening for me! Glad you got your commenting device working.
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 yeh, me too! Turns out the problem was a nonfunctioning thought processor just like you suspected all along.
You've won my respect and a subscription! Looking forward to seeing you moving forward!
@joecasatelli4825 Thanks for the kind words and, especially, for joining-in with us! All of us are looking forward to having you with us as we move forward.
I agree. I look forward to your vids.
@MrJeepfreak1972 Hope to not disappoint!!
Your test mirrors mine. The baffle in aftermarket muffler on my 066 Flattop in my avatar picture broke off one day while I was felling timber. I removed the broken baffle out of the muffler and had to retune the saw. The saw had noticeably less power pulling a 32" bar in Hard Maple without the baffle the rest of the day. That night I put another muffler with a baffle back on that saw. Now I do modify the baffles to be more like the ones in the early 064s but I have found in those saws and my ms461s that they do better with a baffle than without. I have run the muffler just like your original on my 026's for years, it's great to see your test showing that to be a good choice. I look forward to your next set of tests. Keep up the great work!👍
@230e4 Ahhh! Very good; I was trying to consider and had so may thoughts that the video would have been two hours long if I rambled with everything in my mind. I wondered if the baffle works better with smaller outlets out of the muffler. I had considered that a bunch of gasses made it out of the baffle and into the can while a smaller portion was rebounded back into the cylinder; the gasses that made it out were "trapped" on the outside of the baffle and started going out the exit hole and were still going out when the rebound gasses finally escaped the baffle and began leaving. I wondered if, with no baffle, the gasses bounced around like a BB in a fruit jar and couldn't find an efficient way out due to never having a defined path being laid out? I am thinking that, with a large exhaust opening (or especially a little stinger pipe) the baffle would begin to be detrimental instead of functional. I will have to order another can at some point to put a baffle back with the best version(s) of exhaust opening we find. Who knows, the baffle may make *IT* better? Thanks so much for joining-in and giving something for the ol' gray matter to feed upon!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 I agree, like we chatted about before on the 372xp with a pipe in the muffler and no baffle. There are so many things to consider and test. Always interesting.
@230e4 I think we can all have our hands full testing with this thing. Who knows, maybe it needs another gadget attached?? Decibel meter??
Quite impressive the amount of experiments your doing to eventually finding a desired result, it will be interesting to see and watch the Other mods/pipes you put in the testing, as always have fun
@diggindiggenit6540 Thanks Diggin'; this exhaust thing could run into a pandora's box. Each time I test 3 or 4, I think of 5 or 6 ways that THOSE need tested. Can't help but have fun!! Thanks! As always, enjoy your comment(s) and glad you find time to join-in with encouragement.
Love it! Great dyno build, brother!
@coxsaws Thank you Jonathan! It's cheap, but ALL home-cobbled... including the software/program, so the compliment is means more than for something I bought!
Hello there from Ireland, love your enthusiasm, good stuff
@user-ur1vy1bf2i Thanks Eoin!! I am happy you found us and am extra happy you joined-in! Ireland!!?? Welcome; last time I was near Ireland, I was headed to Norway about 30+ years ago. Beautiful from what I can recall.
Great idea with the sensor probe into the decomp port.
@FarmlessFarmer-xs1he Thanks Farmless!! It will work on some saws and not on others; it was sort-of hard to do on this one even because there was no provisions for the decomp in the cover (never had one before), so the probe was difficult to cram under the lid. Some saws will not have the provision for decomp. For the most-part, I do believe I've stumbled on a decent idea for once 🤣😉 Hope all going well with ya!!
My shop stool back in 1970 was a motorcycle seat on an old office roller stool! Loved it, but left it when I went elsewhere 😢
@wrstew1272 I bet that did work fine!!
In regards to exhaust volume(space) and or back pressure, I do know that I had an inline 6, bored and stroked in an xJ, there was a big difference in felt torque, noticeable between an open free flowing full length exhaust and running it open at the Y pipe. I’m hopeful that we will be able to see this, and possibly even use this theory to move your peak torque to a higher rpm. I have a few different pipe ideas.
Fabulous shop stool!
@Archer_82 Like you, I'm hopeful we will be see it. I know scavenging can have a huge effect. When I ran (antique) pulling tractor and I had a pto dyno to check progress, a longer 2" pipe pulled WAAY better than a shorter 3" pipe... even though the 3" pipe was CHROMED?? 🤷♂️ I would have bet money that the chrome would've added 20%.
I like the stool as well; might oughta give myself a tetanus shot before use it too much 🤣😉
Great content and a joy to watch as usual. Maybe just put an alligator clip on the spare/ground wire. Boy you sure are high tech. Love the chair too!! Muffler magic. I've always gutted them put a hole in an upper corner or both. I feel like the exhaust comes out for reverb and what bounces back hits exhaust coming out and spreads from there. I maybe totally off but seems logical to me. I'm not a smart man though. 😆
@eze7524.Morning_Wood_Farms You, Forest Guu-uump, and I all have that in-common! I'm like you in that I gut the can and make a hole in one or more corners and of varying size (depending how I'm feeling that day). I was awful surprised at *ONLY* gutting the can raised heat and lost HP; gained HP back at a faster rate than gaining heat upon drilling larger holes. I think we'll continue to drill larger and/or more holes before putting little pipes in the can. I really *think* the outlet pipes help... but I've never tested it before.
I'm confident in my heat readings, but no necessarily confident that I am loading from a proper amount of time and whatnot. I'm putting a load to the saw to pull it down to 10k (ish) and getting temp to 250; once it hits 250, I record for 30 seconds. Reckon that's ok or should not start recording until 300 or ?? ... or load longer??? This is brand-new ground we are all breaking here. Would appreciate your thoughts.
@eze7524.Morning_Wood_Farms Forgot to mention and/or explain properly in the video, The other wire was not a ground or anything; it was actually a second thermocouple connected to another readout; I was wanting to check the temp of the aluminum fins as well as the plug as I assumed the fins would raise/lower quicker in temp. The readout HATED the vibration of the thermocouple being transmitted up the wire; as soon as I fired the saw, the readout would shut down; not sure what to do about that yet.
of course you deserve a thumbs up. and I got nothing to help ya😮😊
This is great stuff!
@bluelightguy1 Thanks!! I had high hopes that other people thought so, too... but, my lil ol' pea-brain is easily amused 🤷♂️ . Thanks for being always being here!!
You may want a thermal camera to determine the heat test points.
@coxsaws Thanks for the tip, Jonathan. I am not sure (yet) if that will work well for me... the dyno, and the cubby in which it's planted, are pretty rudimentary. I've tried the point-and-shoot thermal handheld thermometers and had a couple of "issues"
1) It takes two hands to run the dyno and my wife won't let me use hers...anymore. 🤣😂
2) I couldn't get a good (accurate, realistic, one that satisfied me?) temp reading with the plastic in the way; I didn't want to run it without the plastic AS a heat test because of the importance of the plastic for cooling; I don't mind running for a bit without plastic for other testing, but heat seemed not-fair?
If I could get those two problems sorted (without too much added expense) it might work better. Ideas/thoughts??
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 I will give this some thought and see if I can't bring back some good intel for you..
Great content as usual . you will be at 1000 subs soon , congrats!
The results surprised me (more restriction = more HP???) , it was a dunning kruger moment
Would the dyno tests be better with the more free flowing exhaust designs if it was run without the air filter? . I know its not a "real world test" to run it without one but it may give some idea about what could be possible if the air filter design was improved . As you have said , the way it is at the moment is holding it back .
I was going to modify a aftermarket exhaust that just came through the post , and copy what gives the best results . I still will but i'll wait a while and see what exhaust style you end up sticking with . i'll do the base gasket delete soon as well
@containerseightandnine9756 The results of the baffle also surprised me! I agree on the Dunning Kruger (and I want to brag that I didn't even have to look that one up; been using the comparison for years too)
I think the dyno results will start showing more HP after the exhaust begins to open up a bit; at some point, it will start to go back down if/when it gets opened too much.
Yes, will get more HP without air filter, but working within means right now. There will probably be 2-3 videos-worth of exhaust mods before we get to air filter mods, ign timing, rings, etc...
The next video (shot but needs edited) has 3 very different exhaust mods; the video after that will be same mods with bigger/different shapes/sizes of outlet.
Bear with me; it's getting more daylight, so I have less time to "play" Will probably only get one Saw vid per week and one of something else (sawmill, hay equip, etc..) Not as much time to spend in saw shop. Thanks for being here and joining-in!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 no problem , I appreciate the tests you have done , I have definitely learned a lot by watching them and I know it must be time consuming . You have probably took the cylinder off and put it back more than 10 times by now. And then editing videos is a pain as well 👍
I have a suspicion that there will always be a spike after you idle the saw because you drastically cut the cooling once at idle. I could be wrong but that's what I think is happening.
Yup. Also why its a good thing to idle for a bit after running one hard... imagine with NO fan
@@mattfleming86
Exactly. I idle my equipment for a minute or two before shutting down if I'm done running them. Two reasons... cooling and in two strokes it leaves more oil in the bottom end to hopefully keep things lubed up in between usage.
Same thought here, under heavy load, you have all that fresh air/fuel in the case flowing through the bottom and, and the flywheel spinning 10k or whatever. Then it heat soaks at idle.
@@Archer_82
Yes sir. Cars get hotter once you shut them down as well. All cooling stops, no coolant circulation. Temps rise, then fall.
@MrJeepfreak1972 There's a thought. Like you, not sure if it's right or not... same thing happens with vehicles and tractors though. You can shut a tractor down (even after idling) and watch the temp gauge rise for a bit afterwards (and probably car, but a car's temp gauge generally doesn't work after cutting power) That's a thought!! Thanks
I wonder what it would do if you did the 30 sec run, then idle for 30 or what ever and run a second time for 30 like it would with back to back cuts.
Removing the baffling reduced thermal mass. Less heat sink means more heat. I wonder if it would be the same after multiple cycles like bucking a log up for firewood
@jasentonguepowersaws4206 I'm with you, I was thinking of multiple runs back to back or a longer pull to give the engine's temp time to stabilize. I with I knew a "safe" temp to run a saw, but we're breaking new ground here (outside of Factor R&D, I expect) I think the proof-of-concept was valid and hopeful. I/we ALL just need to figure how to apply/use it properly. I like your suggestion.
I think the baffle is going to need more exploring; I intend to make the can's cover the best I can and THEN go back to a baffle and see how it reacts. Commonly accepted knowledge would say to get the baffle out... I still lean that way, but am not as sure as I once was. Love the ideas/thoughts!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 looking forward to future results. I sure wish I had access to a dyno like yours for my saws. Would really help dialing in my recipes!
@jasentonguepowersaws4206 Mine's a home-brew operation; considerably less than $200 in it; of course, I'm a hoarder and had many of the pieces-parts needed to build it. I'm sure you can build one just as easily or easier than I. Hardest part with building the sprocket, but I've got that figured out and am happy to share sometime.
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 I’d be very interested in that!
How that top horse power can now be 4.3hp when lates video it was 3.72hp. Did I miss something here.
I also lost a bit what is Bark Box and did I understand right that if you remove those inner parts from muffler you will loose power? Unbelievable result if I understood it right
@AnttiKoivunen-im9us I assume the videos are out of order in the playlist; I put them in as I make/release videos and I make the videos in-order; I think the RUclips's computer may arrange them differently??
The "Bark Box" is a style of muffler cover sold by WestCoastSaw.com and is similar to the Egan Straight Shot sold by EganPerformanceSaws.com I welded my own "bark box".
I agree that the removal of the baffle causing LESS power was astonishing to me, too!! After a LONG TIME of contemplating it, I think I know/understand the reason!! A properly shaped baffle can effect the amount of volume that remains in front of the exhaust port. If there's too much volume at too high of a pressure, the "stuffing" of the little bit of intake charge back into the cylinder. Too little pressure and volume does nothing for the "stuffing" effect. It helped me to picture an Ironhorse pipe as JUST the baffle with a discharge pipe instead of little holes that leak into a bigger chamber. I have it sorted out in my mind to the point of having a slight understanding, but not well enough to explain it very well. I sure enjoy communicating with you!! Thank you,
Temperature really surprised 😮 me
@eze7524.Morning_Wood_Farms Me too!!!!
I think you're seeing temperature increase after the poll. Just because the flow is stopped and it's heat.Soaking, the temperature is rising 'cause the flow is not moving the hot stuff out. Just like when you shut your saw off. After running the temp in the muffler would actually increase for a minute before it started.Cooling, just because the flow was not evacuating, the heat.
@samhiss6807 I think the "problem" is two-fold. There is a little bit of lag between the combustion chamber heating and the thermocouple (mounted in a decomp plug) catching up; it does tend to get a little hotter for a moment. I have actually started doing a 3-minute run to let everything catch up and stabilize. You're right though; even after a 3 minute run and the temp has stabilized, the temp will increase for a couple of seconds before it begins to cool. It's ruined me... I can no longer shut off a saw that's hot; I always let them idle for a bit now. Good point; thanks for joining-in and mentioning it!!
How is it going? Great video as always.
@TheJohnDeereGuy Going well; sawed @1500 BF of lumber for an order last couple of days. Thanks for the compliment! As much as all of us he-men of the world don't "need" to hear it, it is nice from time to time. Thank you sir!
Always interesting 🤔 Hay Chaff 👍😎
@z1berzerker Thanks you sir!!
Another thought...
Its my understanding that two rings have two benefits. One, the piston is more stable in the bore and two, they keep the piston cooler as the rings transfer much of the piston heat to the cylinder walls. If that is in fact true, you may see higher temps in a two ring saw in your readings but it might not mean that its hotter internally. The piston might be cooler with two rings vs the one ring unit. Probably no way for the average home test fella to verify that.
@MrJeepfreak1972 I like it!!! After a spell, one might see more skirt wear with one ring; but like you say, it would be hard to test evenly as you would have to run two different saws the exact same for hundred(s) hours possibly before it was noticeable?
The piston temp is going to be impossible for me to quantify I believe. I also agree (to a point) to the school of thought that the two ring setup has twice the friction as a one ring, but I also consider that there could be nearly the same friction in that the friction is divided between two rings. Not sure that I even believe my own thoughts in that the ring tension would be the same on all three rings. We may be discussing this until the cows come home! (and I love the exchange of ideas). I do hope that there is a measurable difference between the two so that we can all argue about the cause of the difference. Dang, I love this!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1
I see your thought process here. Its like running a fat tire in sand vs skinny. There is less pressure on the ground with the wider tire because there's more surface area. Another thought is the second ring doesn't see much compression, if the top ring is in correct working order, so it gets much less of the forces that push the rings out against the walls when firing. So the friction of the top ring, at least until the exhaust opens, should be significantly higher after which they should be roughly the same until compression builds on the pistons way back up. Once the ports are closed on the compression part of the stroke, I'd think the top ring, once again has more friction as the pressure is pushing the ring out against the walls.
@MrJeepfreak1972 I think your points are valid (as usual); since we're starting down the rabbit hole of the two ring thing... the school of thought about there being no oil (gas/oil mix) between the rings thereby causing more friction on the bottom ring while going up and the top ring while going down... is that valid *OR* is there plenty entering between the rings while the gap is exposed to the transfers?
@@HayChaffandSawdust1
I've had close to a 100 saws apart in the last few years just as a hobbyist. In my observation, the driest area on a piston, outside of the crown, is the area above the top ring. I see plenty of lubrication on the rings themselves and in between the rings on two ring pistons with good oils.
@MrJeepfreak1972 I would concur with your findings. I had always considered that the area over the top ring was due to being part of the combustion area. Have seen some theory about squish band controlling the combustion and lack of quick combustion at the outside of the cylinder; it leaves a cooler area at the cyl wall and top/edge of piston; would be interesting to try to see that on the tests too, but I don't know how to isolate the results because if I change squish band, I will effect compression, HP, and too many other things to be able to point a finger as a cause/effect. We may have opened a bucket of worms here!!! I hope!!!!!!!!!
Make the replacement decomp plug out of aluminum 😅
@wrstew1272 ... actually that MAY work??
Let it idle to cool 😎 down for a bit...
@z1berzerker I don't get everything explained worth a hoot... ever; my mind wanders too far too fast. I did let the saw idle until it was back down to
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 Roger That 👍😎 don't call me Sir, I worked for a living 😉
@z1berzerker That is a hazard of my previous job and my inability to remember names; seen your "handle" and THOUGHT the name was Joe, but wasn't sure enough to type it out 🤣😉 Love it... I don't want called "sir" either!!
@@HayChaffandSawdust1 You remind me of a Sargeant I had in the US 🇺🇸 Army 🤷 ... Keep the great videos coming 👍😎
@z1berzerker I've spent my life giving and/or receiving orders and expecting them to be followed... but that's not what I want to say to you Joe... with sincerity, I thank you for your service!