Ben Hogan - Ball Position - Part 2
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- Опубликовано: 10 янв 2022
- In part 2 we look at Ball Position by Ben Hogan. If you like these Ben Hogan vidoes head over to our Playlist and hit Ben Hogan The Lost Fundamentals of Hogan for 17 more videos.
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Why haven’t I seen this. The most logic and clear presentation of Hogan 5 lessons ever. This is allowing me to reread Hogan book again for the 20th time, but with new insight. Thank you for being concise.
Thank you Mark for your kind comments - I’m always pleased to hear people are finding the channel helpful.
Kind regards,
Luther.
In 30+ years of lessons, no one has ever simplified the open/close stance concept like this. Brilliant.
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
This bloke is a genius.
I have dwelt on this but never solved the problem
because of this radial foot position thing.
Thanks mate.
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
Does anybody else feel like they're getting golf lessons from Michael Caine? Love how he delivers his points.
😉 Thanks for a great compliment and for subscribing- kind regards, Luther.
Agree with earlier posts - this guy really is a genius. Love it. Have Mr. Hogan's books, but after this lesson will have more understanding. Thank you.
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
Nice work Luther with the B&W filming. The sweater and hat are nice touches as well. Your swing naturally smacks of Hogan. Very pleasing to watch. Hogan was such a great player.
Thanks for your kind comments- there’s no one like Mr. Hogan through impact and I don’t come close to his power or precision. However, it is a privilege to discuss his superb book in my DVD “The Lost Fundamentals of Hogan”
I hope to be releasing some more Videos about the great man’s book later this year.
Kind regards,
Luther
Awesome video , thanks. Black and white gave it a great touch ,
You are absolutely brilliant. I feel like I have just stumbled onto a gold mine.
Thanks Dan - I hope it helps you on the course!
Kind regards,
Luther.
Tremendous knowledge! So simple yet wonderfully scientific! Thanks. RUclips is a God-send!
So nice of you
Love this Luther, love the Ben Hogan theme. Great video 👌
Thank you for your kind feedback - let me know if you can take it to the course! Kind regards- Luther
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom I will certainly give it a try 👍
I had an epiphany. Sitting there in plain sight. You're explanation make it is so clear. The swing send the ball the blade bends the ball.
Thanks Mark for your kind feedback - it’s important to know the difference between a “path” fade and a “face” fade. Also the difference between a “path” draw and a “face” draw.
You need to know the difference to fully understand the ball flight laws.
Kind regards - Luther
Outstanding explanation of ball position - and the proof is in the 'noise' of the strike...
Thanks,
William
Glad you enjoyed it
This is not only informative but a joy to watch - thankyou
Hi there - thank you for your kind words and for appreciating the production. Wishing you a Happy New Year in 2023 👍🍾🏌️♀️
Excellent video Sir. 🇨🇦💝🇺🇸🙏👍
Thank you kindly
Thank you for this lesson! I certainly appreciate your Ben Hogan like attire on the course as well! I just received the 5 Lessons book in yesterday’s mail! Thank you for sharing your coaching advice! Always looking to improve!
Thanks Donald 👍
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom I enjoyed your DVD! Hearing Alex Hay was very rewarding! I saw a great many similarities with your RUclips channel, the information has been so helpful to me. Looking forward to going out tomorrow!
Thanks for solving my ball position conundrum 👏
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
Aside from some great content and functional descriptions, you guys have one of the most uniquely produced golf channels out there. Something very hard to do these days. I had sworn off subscribing to any more channels...until I found you guy. Thanks!
Hi TMacD - thank you so much for your very encouraging words. It’s my main motivation since becoming a PGA Coach in 1973, to make a difference to a golfers understanding and clarity.
Keep up the good work and keep us posted on your progress.
This video fills me with so much hope.
Hi Jim - I’m so pleased to have given someone hope! Wishing you a very Happy Christmas and for good golf in 2024!
Luther,
Well constructed video, easily explained a tough topic. Well done sir
Glad you liked it
Great video!!! 😃
Hi Thomas - thank you for your encouraging comment.
The whole DVD - “ The Lost Fundamentals of Hogan” was a labour of love. It cost nearly £20K to film and edit so it’s great to get so much positive feedback !
Kind regards,
Luther.
That's a very nice swing Luther!
Thanks 👍
Another great lesson and love the outfit looking like Mr Hogan.
Thank you! Cheers!
Great explanation and video, will try this next round, Subscribed ⛳🙂
Thanks for the sub!
Greetings Luther
What a concept!
I’m going to bore you with a short summary of my radial ball position experience last week.
1) haven’t played for 6 weeks let alone hit any shots
2) Get to the 8th a long par 4 set up for a draw using the radial… 3 wood perfect 👍
3) 6 iron 149 metres down breeze pin cut back right bunkers all around, set up for a fade.. great strike fades a little too much, splash into the bunker darn it 😞
3) Pin high (oh by the way I hate bunkers)
4) Ah! The hula hoop I walk the radial…Splash out she goes
miss the putt but a 5 on this hole is acceptable
5) Possibly 3 of the best shots I’ve ever played
Thanks Luther and Mr Hogan
Thank you for such a great report - it’s very satisfying to hear of your great shots. Please tell all your golfing friends to help us subsidise the video production.
Keep up the improvement!!
Kind regards,
Luther.
These are good videos.
Glad you like them!
Nice video series, love the "radius" idea regarding set-up and ball position. Only production knock I have is that Mr Hogan would "never" be in the trees on the left side of the course. His swing was built to eliminate that half of every hole on the course. For future video's, maybe set-up on the right side of a hole to demonstrate the draw and fade technics. Cheers.
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
Makes it sound simple 👍👍
Thanks Craig - Luther
seconds of arc...there`s not a straight line in playing golf,
its a compromise of tangents ,nice work luther😎👍
Hi there - thanks for your encouraging feedback. I trust it’s helping your scores!
Kind regards,
Luther
Hello. Firstly, such a nice teaching video. I was playing off 7/8 and have had lessons from a few pros, and I love pros that keep it simple, and they've all helped my handicap come down, and of course helped me to enjoy the game so much more. Secondly, I changed to the Hogan method roughly five years ago, and it's nice to have a video series on his lessons (especially as I somehow lost the book). I haven't really played in the past three years, but I am off on a golfing holiday soon, back to sunny Agadir, and (oddly) I feel confident that the five Hogan lessons will enable me to get back into a grooved swing very quickly. Congratulations on a nice channel, I am curious as to your location in the UK please? (subbed).
Thanks for your kind words. We are based in Milton Keynes If you ever want personal lessons shout out to me.
Thank you kind sir!
Very welcome!
Me too, just starting golf again in later life, read the book, but this is the most stunning explanation of why it fundamentally should work. I'm starting with the principle that I'm not going to 'tinker' - if it's not working then it's not the clubs, balls or whatever - it's me......
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
It's all well and good on flat lies. My course you rarely get one.😅
Great mate thnks heaps, Shot tracer would help us see Exactly what yr ball actually does cheers
Hi Philip - thanks for your encouraging feedback; I’m glad you found the video helpful.
I will try to add graphics where possible - it’s not a problem using the Foresight QUAD system.
Have a great season, kind regards,
Luther.
Good info could drop the cinematography
Hi Luther love your work on Hogan
When you walk round the ball do you keep the club face aiming at the target.
Or do you aim left or right of the target
For example club face right when walking the arc to the left?
Thanks Steve
Hi Stephen - thanks for your question.
Yes, the club face goes with you as you move around the circle. It’s the path across the ball that makes it move, not manipulating the face.
Practice hitting shots around an intermediate target by sticking some alignment rods in the ground about 10 yds away exactly between the ball and target,
Thanks for subscribing- please tell all your golfing pals about the channel 👍😇🏌️♀️
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom Thank you I have already passed on some of your videos 👍
It looks like you don’t “turn the chuck” as Hogan used to say, when setting up for that bunker shot. Is that correct?
I am so happy that I have found your series on The Lost Fundamentals of Hogan. I do have a question. When you set up square aiming at the target the move around the circle to close or open, does the clubface stay at target or does it incrementally follow you? Intuitively, I would like to say it stays on target, but intuition can be wrong sometimes. Thanks for this lovely series.
Hi TheAthanik - when you go round the circle the face must go with you. If you were behind a tree and trying to shape a shot around it, you soon learn not to turn the face in - stay safe!
Kind regards, Luthet
Hi - the face should go with you so you can use the path to shape the shot.
Turning the face back to the target will spoil your intended “send” path.
Question: Does the blade direction always point to the target as you move your feet or does the blade direction move with the feet direction. In other words if you move your feet say 15 degrees left (for draw) does the blade rotate 15 degrees left also?
Hi - yes, the club face goes with you and should be “square” to the “send” line. It takes only a hint of path manipulation to create the desired shape. Hope this helps and thank you for your question.
Kind regards,
Luther
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom thanks Luther
Hi Luther, when walking around the circle does the ball appear more forward for the draw and further back for the fade. My intuition says it should be the other way around. I might not be doing it right? Cheers Lee
Hi Lee - when you go left around the circle for draw it feels the ball has gone back. BUT! If you do it correctly the ball position should be good in relation to your toe line.
Fade radially will feel forward - again correct in relation to toe line.
Hope this clarifies things - I’ll post some more on this subject shortly.
Thanks for your feedback and for subscribing - kind regards, Luther
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom thanks for the reply. It’s my pleasure to subscribe.
For me, if I’m setting up with a 6 iron (for a straight shot)and the ball is opposite the logo (left peck) on my shirt and I turn around the circle (if I’m doing it correctly) for a draw it now looks like the ball is now opposite my left shoulder. For a fade it looks like it opposite my sternum. Hope that makes sense. All the best ~ Lee
Might be the way I’m interpreting the the walkaround… for a draw I’ve kind of pulled my right foot back and my left forward which makes the ball look well forward. In contrast, If I side step (half a foot step) to the left, the ball appears further back.
Are you keeping the club face aimed at the target when you move around the circle?
Hi Div - no, as you move round the circle the whole club, shaft and face go with you. If you turned the face in or out the ball would be deflected off your send line.
When you allow the face to go with you, it is then the path that shapes the shot. Hope that helps and thank you for your question and interest- Luthet
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom Hmm. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how that is different than just aiming left (when opening stance) or right (closing stance) of the original target. It seems like if I opened my stance that way I would just now be aiming straight to a new target left of the original and the shot would just go straight left of the original target.
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom so, if I am understanding this correctly, you would then swing down the original target line? Thank you.
Hi Dee - when you go round the circle the face should be square to your intended “send” line.
By doing this we are shaping the shot by swinging across the face. This way we utilise the sweet spot of the club - it’s impossible with an open or shut face to use the sweet spot. Hope this clarifies things - Kind regards, Luther
Hi Divac7777 - you are correct the Radial Ball position relies on a perfect address aligned to the target. Then by moving around the circle we ensure the ball position is still correct for the club in use.
The face is now square to the new send line - swing out to in a hint for fade spin and slightly in to out for draw spin. In all cases use the path across the face. Hope this clears things up - thanks for your feedback and interest - Kind regards,
Luth.
Would there be any problem with reversing the radius? Same difference? I ask because I naturally picture the radius the other way when I address the ball
For a right hander move “Radially” left for draw-spin - “Radially” to the right for fade-spin.
Thanks for your feedback - I’m glad you are finding the videos helpful,
Kind regards,
Luther
So when moving around the circle you first aim the club at the flag then move you stance to the aim line. Do you keep your hands and face still at the target line. Is this correct?
Hi Kevo - when you move radially “around the circle” the club face, shaft and entire body should go with you.
Then it’s a question of using your path to impart the desired spin. Good tip is to practice hitting shots around an umbrella exactly between your ball and the flag - then adjust radially to send the ball initially. Good to know you are enjoying the content - please tell all your golfing partners about the channel - Wishing you a Happy New Year in 2023! Luther👍🏌️♀️🍾
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom hi Luther so then do you swing down the original aim line or do you rely on using your wrists to get the desired spin?
Hi Kevin - imagine a tree in your way - exactly between your ball and the flag.
To hit a draw shot I need you to move everything “Radially” around the circle so you are set up to send the ball right of the tree. Now use your swing path across the ball and across the intended swing path. There will be some forearm rotation but mainly it’s the path that imparts the “send” and the “spin”.
NB - it’s not our wrists that rotate the blade but our forearms.
Hope this helps and wishing you a very Happy New Year - Luther
did you just place the club down to face the targeted flag at set up and then move again around the circle to face the bunker?? Would the face also turn to the bunker?
Hi Sam - thanks for your question and feedback. When shaping a shot by going “around the circle” the face goes with you. If you are behind a tree it doesn’t take long to realise the face must be aimed along the send line and then use the path to impart spin.
Thanks again and please tell your golfing pals about this channel 👍
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom thanks, I've always aimed at the flag after I turned to go around the tree, must admit, not much success, I end up saying,, Need to practice this more,, but what u have shown, face at the flag, then turn may be what I've been missing.
Does that mean that driver to 5 iron you play a closed stance 6 -9 iron play with a square stance and PW to SW or LW play with open stance...
Will that work??
Pretty much - but to hit more draw or fade you would adjust to suit.
Draw is easy off a square stance but you do need to open it for fade.
We have a natural draw bias because we stand to one side of the ball - like a rugby conversion.
Thanks for your question and for subscribing- kind regards,
Luthet
Doesn’t the illustration in Mr. Hogan’s book show that his left foot is in the exact same spot for every club?
Hi HUD - yes indeed the left foot is a constant giving the appearance of constant ball position.
The point I’m trying to make is that although he was visually constant, because his right foot was well behind his left with a Driver (CLOSED) level with a 6-iron (SQUARE)
and right foot in front of left with a wedge (OPEN) - Mr Hogan utilised a progressive ball position in relation to his swing path and plane.
Hope this helps and thanks for you question,
Kind regards,
Luth.
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom, thank you for taking time to clarify, sir. I agree with your philosophy and I appreciate what you are doing.
I have studied everything everyone has written about hogan .it's been extremely exhausting but I keep going .....I'm confused please tell me I'm missing something...buy closing you stance you state that's a draw and I understand why but hogan closed h8s stance and played a fade ? Did he modify this to fade with his grip or something else ....thank you billy
Hi Billy - over Mr. Hogan’s career his swing and principles evolved. Wether a stance is open or closed at address doesn’t stop a player improvising different shot shapes. Hogan would be able to use his swing path to hit fades and draw shots; in his early career he was dogged by flat hooks and later on dealt with that by neutralising his grip and playing what people called a “power fade”. In the great book “ The Hogan Mystique” it shows Mr. Hogan with a held on and held off follow through - subtle indication of improvising shot shapes from very similar swings.
The key to improving your game is not be too analytical - treat all instruction as a tool box - just pick one or two that work 😉
Keep in touch - Luther
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom thank you I will ..appreciate your wealth of knowledge
I'm a little confused. Is this the same thing as your part 1 video, or is this just something to show you how to do a draw or a fade?
Hi Cal - please give me a bit more info so I can respond fully - Luth 👍
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom Thank you for replying, I appreciate it. In your part 1 video on Hogan you showed his different stances for different clubs depending on length. In this video you used your radial circle to place your foot forward or back instead of just moving your foot forward or back like in the last video. Also in this video you said not to just move your foot forward or back, but in part 1 you did just that. After thoroughly confusing you I guess my question is the radial circle, is it just for fades and draws or is it related to Hogan's foot placement in the part 1 video.
Incidentally I was able to do a fade using what I remembered you were saying about the radial circle, I just don't know how I did it...
Club face is responsible for 70-80% initial direction of the golf ball at impact. Face sends it, path bends it. Depending on AoA and face to path ratio, this determines the amount of curvature on a golf shot.
Hi Clayton - thanks for your comment.
To fully understand the ball flight we need to know wether it’s a “ Path” Fade or “Draw” or a “Face” Fade or Draw.
100% proven on trackman
Hi Johnson - Launch monitors record the interaction between ball and club face.
What a Launch monitor cannot do is record or discern the cause of that interaction.
Like the vast majority of Launch Monitor users - Trackman, GC2 et Al,don’t know the difference between
“Path” Fades and “Face Fades” or Path Draws and Face Draws.
I feel like in practice the path sends the ball the face bends the ball…..but hasn’t trackman and other monitors proven that we were wrong about how to curve shots?
The blade actually sends the ball and the path bends the ball.
@@monrow11yes, the face starts it off on its path and then the amount you are cutting across the ball off of that initial path determines the amount of bend. It’s much easier to see when you are hitting 3/4 punch shots rather than full lofted swings.
Nice outfit
Basically you’re creating a tangent line off the swing arc? Each set up always had a 90° angle from feet to ball. This is nuts
Hi justlang12 - thank you for your feedback and interest.
If you look at the ball position drawing in the Summary of The Modern Fundamentals you will see that Mr Hogans toe line was open to target and 90degrees to a central ball position.
His toeline was closed with a Driver and 90degrees to his left toe.
From Mr Hogans parallel/square toeline with a 6-iron the 90degrees line is left centre.
So visually Mr Hogan appeared to play every club inside left heel but 90degrees off his open, closed and square toe-lines meant in practical terms his ball position was “progressive” related to swings along his toe line and swing path.
My “Lost Fundamentals of Hogan” DVD was part of my submission that gained me my “Master” PGA Professional status. My observations re Hogan’s ball position have been approved extensively by eminent PGA colleagues. It is quite a subtle observation, not broadly understood across the teaching fraternity so at first look it might appear somewhat random
Hope that helps clarify my point - thanks again for your interaction
Kind regards,
Luther
🤗
Hi Alan - trust you are enjoying the videos and seeing improvement in your game - Luther.
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom
Always a student of the fundamentals.
Personally the best videos I’ve ever seen on how to shape fades and draws. I naturally draw the ball to power draw. Straight is doable for me as long as I’m not lazy with my weight shift. Fades have usually been my double miss. Watching your video regarding how the align about the circle actually allows me to play a controlled fade perfectly using the exact swing I hit draws with.
It’s amazing how overly complicated basic geometry becomes if your left to your own devices. Hogan was awesome. The secret is in the dirt 😊👍
Alan - thank you for your encouraging feedback. You have obviously started to understand the difference between a “face” fade and a “ path” fade AND that between a “face” draw and a “path” draw.
@@lutherblacklockgolfcom
Yes much simpler The hogan way😊
Hogan's feet were closed at a dress with the driver, but his hips and his knees were open
ISN'T this contrary to what Trackman shows as being the true ball flight laws....??
Hi - to fully understand the ball flight laws one has to understand that there are two ways of shaping a draw and a fade. One with the “path” and one with a “draw”,
Personally I wouldn’t trust Trackman’s technology - it doesn’t see the ball until it’s travelled a foot or so.
In that same time Foresight Quad has taken 23 images of the ball. Quad works from Launch Data - Trackman works from Launch calculation.
Thanks for the Video!
I'm confused by your explanations of ball position from part 1 to part 2.
@ 50seconds of this video you say that Hogan didn't close his stance with a driver by simply pulling his right foot back. Yet, in the prior part 1 video that is literally what you said he did to slightly close his stance with a driver
In the first video you say that the left foot stays in the same place and only the right foot moves. (wider and back to close and shorter and forward to open)
Are you able to clear this up? Thanks!
Hi Joel - thanks for your question.
Mr.Hogan in his book shows that the left foot remains in a constant position and by varying his right foot creates a “progressive” ball position.
So, that is a blurring of two schools of thought - constant and progressive.
That said, is a slightly different subject to opening and closing the stance “radially”. The “Radial” ball position makes a clear distinction of 2 separate issues-
Firstly - the idea that for all swing models the “progressive” ball position is best due to the varying length of the golf clubs.
Secondly - opening and closing the stance “radially” pivots around the ball.
I hope that has clarified it for you,
Thanks again for your question and subscribing,
Kind regards, Luther
Ummm. This is a stretch.