The third degree is really the only weapon in the entire game that could be considered a direct upgrade because it gives you extra utility without having to sacrifice any other kind of utility whatsoever. The iron bomber is a direct upgrade just like the tomislav or direct hit are; they aren't. They reward more thoughtful and skillful gameplay, but the unique stats that are changed throughout each are still not enough to justify calling any a direct upgrade. The iron bomber features way more utility than the stock, it outperforms the stock in almost every scenario, and the stock's clunkiness really just makes the iron bomber feel nicer to use, and yet there are situations where that extra long det time or extra amount of bounciness or random bit of grenade spread or extra bit of grenade radius do come into play, and because of that the stock is just an incredibly unfavorable alternative to the iron bomber that can still pass the iron bomber in a few incredibly convoluted and niche situations.
Not a direct upgrade ofc, just better and has too much upsides to even compare to the very few downsides. (Ex. Stock pipes are better for bouncing around corners)
Eh, all i can say is that I used it before and after the bugfix and never noticed a thing. I think it's confirmation bias making people think the hit box was the problem when really, the iron bibmer is just easier to hit with
For me Iron bomber has always been like playing Demoman in ez mode, because indeed, everything listed here is the stuff i experienced too such as the smaller blast radius and the less roll of the grenade But idk, i have always felt more satisfied when im able to land stock grenade pipes, maybe because it is indeed trickier
The projectile actually uses the default pill shape for physics, not its own model. The TF2 wiki says so and even features a video showing proof. The Iron Bomber has 0 effect on how pills travel. I couldn't verify this second point but the self damage radius may actually be entirely seperate from the enemy damage radius. For example, the Direct Hit's self damage radius is exactly the same as stock's as is the Air Strike's. This might only be a feature of rocket launchers not grenade launchers but someone else has said self-damage is unaffected by blast radius and that might be true.
@@mariustan9275 yes but I don't know if that's specifically added to the direct hit or if it's for all rocket launchers, or if it's for all explosive weapons.
2:13 The model is only cosmetic Iron bomber also behaves like a cyllinder in the air and surfaces, suffers from the same airdrag and interacts with surfaces the exact same way than stock, a cyllinder If you wanna confirm this, shoot a grenade down a ramp and you'll see it roll down like a cyllinder (rolling down to a side), not a sphere (straight down) You're just used to the sphere cosmetic not moving a lot and thus feel it's easier, and also I might add because they're "tinier" visually wise, they're harder to avoid from an enemy POV and feel faster TL;DR everything is the exact same as stock now in how a pipe behaves Other than that, very good video, they should nerf iron bomber considerably Remove the shorter fuse time, and change the -15% splash radius to -20% damage on rollers
A straight damage penalty like that for a grenade launcher sounds harsh. Look at the liberty launchers damage penalty and also look in game to see it's not used that much. Maybe a better idea would to take a look at fishstick's rebalance server and see they changed the iron bomber to be more distinct from stock
1:06 I’ll say it a combination of the bug and the stats. It is reasonable to say that the Iron Bomber’s hitbox size was marginally bigger than stock however, in the game where player missed things by margins can mean getting the kill, escaping, etc I think that a lot. Added with the fact that players who did not have good aim with stock or were seekiing improvement in their aim switched to iron bomber with the near instant claims of “it feels like my aim got better” Remember most of the Iron Bomber positive stats adhere to effects of the roller not when it flies through the air. So again that bug was doing some lift on that end. Last there is the shape (mesh ) of the Iron Bomber which improves the aerodynamic flow making iron pills a bit faster. This also plays into things but this isn’t some hidden bug but more less how the source engine works. (Just wish the Loose Cannon mesh was adjustable to a proper scale aswell). The fact that both the lower air resistance and slightly bigger hitbox were together on this weapon make a complicated situation to debate outside rollers (I made this before watching the whole video and you hit on some points already)
Definitely agree. I wish the stock was better so I could use an Australium, but the iron bomber is just too good not to use. Great commentary btw, keep it up :)
It's not that much of an upgrade though since you can still dominate a server with direct pipes. Look at Lazypurppe who uses stock and also plays comp.
I play demo in sixes and use the iron bomber 80% of the time, but the iron bomber does have a range weakness and I frequently switch off of it when holding chokes on process and sunshine. When you have 8 stickies down and are spamming choke with the iron bomber to pressure for a sac, you simply can’t help with the iron bomber because the grenades explode before actually reaching a target. I run loch n load frequently on these long range maps.
I think a fitting nerf, since the grenades are supposed to be heavy (that's the explanation for why they don't roll around after all) is to reduce the projectile speed too (which also gives them a shorter range). That way stock does have a distinct advantage over the iron bomber as it would have superior range and projectile speed.
It already has slightly shorter range thanks to the shorter fuse time, but that might be a good change that would give it a defined role (mid to short range area denial/spam) without being a better stock grenade launcher. It would STILL be really good thanks to its predictability, just not overwhelmingly so. I like this idea
Default Demoman's primary is his sticky launcher. The reason why I suck at demo is that i spent so many hours perfecting the exact arc & range of the stock launcher, i forgot how to use stickies effectively. Regarding the spherical shape vs demo's pills; its a shame source ragdoll physics screw the demo yet again; first with the larger hitbox & now by janky physics. Heck even the loch 'n load is more reliable than stock because of the faster projectile speed
1. The shape of the grenade doesn't matter. They all act the same as stock, with the same air resistance calculations. 2. The smaller splash radius does not affect self damage. It's a separate hitbox. 3. The shorter fuse time can make it a bit less practical to spam at longer ranges. The iron bomber should be changed, but not because it's a straight upgrade. Just because it is so boring that it is basically a worse looking reskin. Stock pipes forever lol. Also nice video.
I play iron bomber 24/7...am kinda willing to go back to stock if i got an aussie tho gotta show the style before gameplay But ye...after i went back to stock it feels like shit, my brain is 100%adapt for iron bomber only i guess
Just started using the iron bomber, after picking it up from a dead demo from another game, and it completely changed how I view demo, and is making me play him more, really fun to play now.
Only time I use stock is to test if there's any situation I might feel it could be better than The Iron Bomber, each time I switch right back to the Iron Bomber. I main this class so my bias stems from my experience.
You still have much worse range with it, rollers are predictable af, so every competent player will dodge them and on top of that it has less splash radius meaning it will damage way less in groups (and yes it's pretty significant in longer run), if you really thing that these "stickybomb like rollers" are that much better then regular ones, why not just use stickies. GL is far better overall at what pipes should be doing (it's better at hybridknight ig, but who cares about such limited demoman without stickies, when we're talking about best weapons) + stock rollers are actually very good if you want to haunt down your enemies running away cuz the pipes roll towards them even if the enemy is outside your range. Also the argument with selfhurting less with the iron bomber is wrong, the self damage radius is exactly same as with stock. Overall it's like, there is that no roll + shorter fuse time stat for iron bomber which can be good in some situations and bad in others so this stat balances iron bomber itself already, however there's also that -15% splash radius, which just puts it below grenade launcher in my eyes, not by much, but it does. Well pretty boring and definetly very overrated weapon. I swear most people talk about iron bomber like this just cuz they grew too much to it.
I agree. I really feel like it's the kind of weapon that people use until they get good with Stock. Everything IB does, Stock does better. The only real upside I can think about the IB is that at closer range it's easier to hit your pipes, but that means nothing if you actually know how to aim the stock GL. And the range, is pathetic compared to stock, something that does come into play very often. Same for defense. The stock rollers can bonce around corners and make enemies retreat. With IB, rollers are just weak stickies with almost no range. And yes, it's kind of boring, since it really adds nothing to the primary weapon slot. The others have very specific uses. Like the LnL against engineers and 1 v 1 combat in open areas, or against ranged enemies, and the Loose Canon at least has a really good defensive use.
I just want to say that at 2:01 you gave flat out misinformation. Yes, the shape does cause the stock pipes to tumble more, but they still go in the same speed/direction that you shot it in. It doesn’t spread to the side of where you aimed, it just fires straight forward in an arc. I remember a demonstration where it had the same arc/speed as the iron bomber. It does not have anything close to random bullet spread. EDIT: After seing shounic's video 'the iron bomber has a bigger hitbox (& notes on pipe & sticky physics simulations)', I was sort of wrong. In the video, it mentions that when firing a pipe, the game "randomly adds and subtracts up to 10 units of vertical and horizontal deviation" which does affect what direction it goes in. However, this applies to ALL demoman primaries anyway (also it *barely* affects your aim even at long range so eh). Also shounic's vid never mentions anything about tumbling affecting projectile speed, so that's still misinformation.
"Demonstration" lmao ok buddy. Sure. Seeing a demonstration in a video of the pills happening to tumble in the same direction they were fired does not disprove my hundreds of hours of experience with both weapons. You watched a video; I actually know what I'm talking about. Laboratory conditions are not a real demonstration of how the game works.
Person with hundreds of hours of experience with both weapons; yeah, these are very different and one is clearly better Guy who watched a video claiming otherwise: YOUR WRONG ADMIT IT
@@Stutteringmaniathat is not a valid point. Just because you have more hours in the game doesn't mean you are right. Yes, it makes you more reliable, but you can't just say you have a lot of hours so you are right.
I'd counter that having more range doesn't really matter; on all but a few maps, the extra range won't come into play. Also, who tries to shoot around corners?
also shooting around corners can be very useful in certain situations, i guess the stock grenade launcher is an incredibly situational sidegrade to the iron bomber, that's wild to think about.@@Stutteringmania
As a loser who plays demo for way too much time I have to say, Iron Bomber is really good, but to be honest demo doesn't really have any bad pipe launchers unless you use the lose cannon in which that case you're just meming and 100% dominanting the server you're on because you really commit to the bit, like Soundsmith when he artificial affects the prices of items.
ok but what about the loose canon ? you can jump faster you can deal more damge at once and it also has a heavier weight adn the bombs push people so you can in push people at your range instead of walking back
Well, iron bomber is arguably worse for long-long range with its shorter fuze and no rolling. And also in my demoman experience, stcok hits more frequently when i try to spam out an are that i don't directly see. Edit: i mean, yeah, it's like a jag (but less extreme) - often better with very, very situational downsides that don't come often since it's overall better (Iron bomber also has a "- you are no more a stck giggachad" stat lol)
They certainly can, but that doesn't diminish the GL's ability of long range. The GL can be fired twice, maybe thrice in the time it takes to fully charge a quickie sticky, even longer for stock. If you are sticky sniping with the Quickiebomb, that doesn't mean you'll always have the ammo loaded to capitalize at every opportunity, your ammo being halved makes that more apparent. Swapping to your secondary is an appealing option when your other option is being stuck reloading.
@@MetalHopper in this specific situation it is possibly better, but lock n load... is not stock. Unlike stock it has downsides Edit: also, the specific situation is "i spam far point without seeing enemies directly", so lock n load won't be good here
As I've never--the FUCK you mean? I have hundreds of hours of experience with both launchers and said as such in the video? I will not STAND for this slander!
It's really not. Stock lets you have a much larger range like the Loch n Load but with rollers. It's easier and safer to get to a sentry nest thanks to the fuse time being longer than Iron Bomber.
I mean, that doesn't mean much bc stickybombs are what you use for sentries, not pipes. You can charge them for a longer range than any pipe, and the multiple detonations can out damage repairs, which pipes frequently can't do. Ofc the loch n load is the exception as its built around fighting sentries, but stickies are always the best option for that, so iron bomber demos lose nothing by equipping it except the inconsistencies of stock
@@Stutteringmania I main hybrid knight so i wouldn't ever think about stickies. Hence why Iron Bomber and Grenade Launcher both serve different purposes.
This video is a joke. Although I believe the Iron Bomber is sightly better than stock, this video is literally misinformation. The shorter blast radius only applies to enemies and not the demoman themselves. And other than the low bounce and roll, its projectile is identical l, and the only reason some people aim better with it (including me) is because of its shape, sound, etc. All of that is subjective. This video was horribly researched, and almost all these properties can be found on the wiki. And even if they were true, this video would still be horrible and manipulative.
I was wrong about the blast radius, I found that out recently. As to everything else, no. I've used both weapons and one is far more consistent in all situations, making it objectively better. "Manipulative" lmao.
@@Stutteringmaniajust saying you aim better with it doesn't prove your point. If you look at shounics old iron bomber video, the tests he does say its projectile is identical to stock and in the visuals, it says stuff like 'iron bomber without randomness' or 'iron bomber with randomness'. Please watch the whole video. Or go on the wiki, it also has it on the trivia section. And when I say you are manipulative, you say it is a straight upgrade, even though that is not the definition of what a straight upgrade. You also say every experienced demoman uses the iron bomber but that is not true, and at the end, you say every experienced demomain agrees with you when none of them has actually talked on your video. Please, for every video you make, proper research and I encourage you to watch shounics video and read the trivia section of the wiki before you reply. Edit: Also the rollers are a sidegrade, I have had multiple kills with them, and it has a shorter range, which although may not be much, stops it from being an objective downgrade. And you using objectively is also manipulative. You can admit your wrong, there is no shame in doing that, but there is shame in defending your video with no basis whatsoever.
The basis of my claims is that I use both weapons and say that one is objectively better based on my performance being better with one over the other. The basis of your claims is that you watched some youtube videos. Look at every top demoman player; they all use IB. It's not manipulative to point out the facts anyone can see. I mean, do SOME demo mains use stock? Yeah! But their less effective because it's a small downgrade. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the IB is overpowered or anything, but it's absolutely a straight upgrade
@@Stutteringmaniayou literally ignore all the points I say. The iron bomber literally cannotbe a straight upgrade, that is not the definition of a straight upgrade. A straight upgrade would be the third degree. The wiki and the shounic video both use facts of the source engine and not "I have a bunch of hours so that means I'm right and I'm wrong". Actually look at those. They are literal fact. Shounic and those who edit the wiki probably have a lot experience on the game, and the people watching your video and believing what you say contradicts your point. And although the Iron Bomber has a larger userbase in comp than stock, saying none use stock would be a lie. But I am repeating my point over and over again, so may I ask, what is your source? When it comes to the Iron Bomber no randomness thing, what is your source?
tf2 isn't a Pay to Win game due to the fact that you get all of the op weapons for free therefore more of a Grind or Wait To Win. but I do agree with the fact that the Iron bomber is demo's best primary and even if stock can still hold its own to the iron bomber. I will always stick to the iron bomber due to the fact it has a cooler name.
demoMAIN here, i think the iron bomber is just instant downgrade cuz it gives u less fuse time, that means u can't shoot from far away, it doesn't roll cuz that sucks tbh it's sometimes usefull when it rolls, especially against sentries, and the less explosion radius, i don't need to explain that one :D
How can you talk about both weapons if you didn’t give the stock not as much time as the unlock? I’ve played lot of Demo as well. Love playing him. I just always go for stock I like bomber. But I just find it more available in close encounters. Doesn’t allow spam that much. Plus I love bombs bouncing of walls and still doing 100 to the target.
im amazed that calln tf2 p2w is still a thing in this day and age. not only every weapon drops free. you can trade a single scrap for a weapon that you need. which people where doing always back in the day. and even now you can just litteraly buy ALL the guns that exist in the tf2 (mechanical ones, not visual ones) for less the half a dollar. even a fraction of the thought that make me consider that person having this thought somehow has them without having a brain.
I can't figure out if I think it's a problem or not...it's stronger, but you'll notice I didn't call it 'overpowered'. I can't tell if it is or not lmao
No it isn’t a straight upgrade it mostly comes down to preference yes the rollers can be useful in SOME situations however the problem is that the weapon deals worse damage vs groups of enemies and is a double edged sword with the diffuse time because it can shorten your range however the difference between them is so marginally small that it’s outright wrong to say you will always preform better with it and it’s better in every single situation
@Stutteringmania tf2 's 2007 net code makes it so that all projectiles are delayed by 100 milliseconds I recommend checking updated interp settings for team fortress
Angry raging obsessive stock/iron bomber fans: 🤬 (calcifying their keyboards with the salt of their tears as they furiously argue their points online even though they only use one or the other because they unboxed a strange one) Happy go-lucky bloomer-pilled Loose Cannon/Tide Turner enjoyers ☺️🛩️ currently flying across the map (there's a sniper who's soul shall be added to his strange frying pan)
although i agree it is a straight upgrade i feel like its not a big enough "buff" to call it better in every way "pipe jumping" is almost always pointless. you're right about air resistance and the "downside" is just not meaningful enough to warrant it even being called a nerf. though the pipes dont get affected in the same way youd think its just a higher ark its not like wind speed is applied its just that stock has a consistent motion until it hits an object once it hits an object it is unpredictable (not super but still somewhat). i do feel like this is a comfortable pick more than a buff it just feel like what stock was intended to be but they wanted to keep the uniqueness of stock without changing the game. this is not a critical debate from me voicing my opinion on the subject as i feel its difficult to put what you're trying to say into words but i agree with this video for most points. simply put iron bomber is just more consistent and the stock is just the first pipe launcher.
@sarahh08 it's an upgrade in the same way that your ears are made in the same material as your nose it's the same but they serve different purposes it's not a comparison really more of choice preference
Try spamming a long range with the iron bomber not stock or loch-n-load. All you do is become a glorified AA gun. The shorter fuse time can actually be a 'significant' downside in these situations. I know it`s very good but annoying snipers can be impossible with it at times. Also I`d like to note that you didn`t say anything about stock`s advantages so you`re making it kinda unfair for stock. You also can`y hit some airshots with the iron bomber i think. It`s not really a downside but sometimes you might just get gardened because of that.
I didn't talk much about stocks upsides because it really has none over the iron bomber. As for range, demo sucks for range in all situations pretty much. Being able to spam rollers from across the map doesn't do much for demoman; he should be getting in there, not hanging back and tickling the enemy. Also, airshotting is more consistent with the iron bomber, not less.
Hard disagree. Iron bomber is not a straight upgrade because iron bomber has severely limited range. Iron bombers shorter range limits his spam. and the arch is worse for shooting over cover. The rollers are easier to avoid aswell.
Also saying iron bomber is easier to hit is literally just wrong. They are both equally accurate. Even if it doesnt feel like it. They have the same air tumble because in the code its the same projectile with the same math behind it. Also 200 hrs on demoman doesnt make u a reliable source by default.
Range on the grenade launcher isn't much of an issue, due to being able to charge your stickies. as for the rollers, I think IB rollers are harder to avoid due to the shorter fuse time. But maybe that's just my opinion
@@slapjack236 50 dmg every 3 seconds is very different from the potential 400 dmg in 2 seconds that a grenade launcher can possibly do. iron bomber rollers are WAY easier to dodge because they have a smaller explosion radius and you can usually walk backwards and it wont reach you. the shorter fuse time is a downgrade in scenarios where it matters which launcher you are using.
Personal Mini Rant (not toward you) - If you are using the Iron Bomber but say the hitbox and lower air resistance isn’t the reason you used this weapon but the roller are…. Then don’t ever complain about other weapons and “the lack of aim” that you deem those weapons to have. You’re missing pipes and still getting rewarded not due to opponent lack of attention but due a faster timer. Screw the people that like crying about skill and aim but use this weapon as a backboard for their own aim.
Idk about the hit box, man. Everyone says it was a huge difference, but i jsed the iron bomber before and after the fix and it feels just as easy. Maybe I'm just oblivious
@@Stutteringmania sorry about the delay so when it comes to the hit box it is knownable that people have claimed their aim has happen to improve when you using this weapon that was supposed be similar to stock. Here a video from SQU1RRELY TF2 from a couple years ago before the bug was made public. He explains is reasoning why he deem the Iron Bomber superior to stock and why pro might have made the switch. I can tell you now, werent talking too much about rollers. ruclips.net/video/kwunyl2PF4o/видео.htmlsi=KvsXxLNITadGyDlI
All the points that came up are exactly like what my analsis of this weopen was and what it is. Did you hack into my pc and steal my notepad document? lol jokes aside, brilliant vid
The point is that demo has all the range he needs with the sticky launcher. The iron bomber works better than stock at every relevant range. "Worse at long range" would only matter if he had no stickys
@@Stutteringmania ive had plenty of situations happen to me in 6v6, I could spam much easier with my pipe launcher isnt I wasnet using iron bomber, I would rather not use my sticky bomb launcher because I have a trap set up
@@Stutteringmania both have very specific but USEFUL uses for every situation, which is why its a SIDE GRADE and not a DIRECT UPGRADE. (but in MOST situations the rollers not moving are great)
The tomislav is SO GOOD...but I'm not sure o would call it a straight upgrade. Tomislav heavies have a slight disadvantage against other heavies; they just plain do less damage. I think it's not a direct upgrade, but it is very VERY good
![[TF2] In Defense of the Scottish Resistance](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/y7uWO4QtjhA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] In Defense of the Loch-N-Load](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GvGIamFcX2I/mqdefault.jpg)
I checked, and the explosion radius is always full for the player no matter what launcher you’re using
Yeah, I totally screwed that up. Monumentally my bad to get that wrong
@@Stutteringmania kind of negates about 1/3 of your video dude
That's why I pinned it
So if you master the loch n load you be at the top best of the best demoman mains
-30% fuse time = less range. Your bombs will explode mid-air if you spam from far enough.
And that's where the Quickiebomb Launcher comes in. Thats just my load out though so yk
It's not food for spamming
@@Anth0ny_LTit's good, but not when there are sentries
If you account for the angle from the ground fired, the -30% fuse time only causes an approximate -9% max range.
@@mlgcactus1035 aw, i wanted to eat it...
Objection: Stock looks cooler
Fair
No not really I like how iron bomber looks a lot more
Also fair
Hey I just love pipes and I think that there somewhat if not the same and plus I'm not gonna stop using my killstreak grenade luancher
Stock looks like ass I can't imagine single sane person that prefer look if stock over iron bomber
The third degree is really the only weapon in the entire game that could be considered a direct upgrade because it gives you extra utility without having to sacrifice any other kind of utility whatsoever.
The iron bomber is a direct upgrade just like the tomislav or direct hit are; they aren't. They reward more thoughtful and skillful gameplay, but the unique stats that are changed throughout each are still not enough to justify calling any a direct upgrade. The iron bomber features way more utility than the stock, it outperforms the stock in almost every scenario, and the stock's clunkiness really just makes the iron bomber feel nicer to use, and yet there are situations where that extra long det time or extra amount of bounciness or random bit of grenade spread or extra bit of grenade radius do come into play, and because of that the stock is just an incredibly unfavorable alternative to the iron bomber that can still pass the iron bomber in a few incredibly convoluted and niche situations.
Not a direct upgrade ofc, just better and has too much upsides to even compare to the very few downsides. (Ex. Stock pipes are better for bouncing around corners)
Objection: I main full demoknight. And shoes have that drip.
bro got the knights 11s
bro got the alijordan's wet wooties
Objection: bootlegger better
1:03 it definitely was not insubstantial. It had the hitbox you would EXPECT a loose cannon shot to have and it was bigger than the entity itself.
Eh, all i can say is that I used it before and after the bugfix and never noticed a thing. I think it's confirmation bias making people think the hit box was the problem when really, the iron bibmer is just easier to hit with
It used the bounding box like the Huntsman does
@@dbonechis all projectiles use the bounding box
@@Bulldozer0330 no, they use normal hitboxes. bounding box is different.
For me Iron bomber has always been like playing Demoman in ez mode, because indeed, everything listed here is the stuff i experienced too such as the smaller blast radius and the less roll of the grenade
But idk, i have always felt more satisfied when im able to land stock grenade pipes, maybe because it is indeed trickier
That's why I like it, anyway; you can't take stock pills for granted, like LazyPurple said, which means they always feel satisfying to land
Use parachute with Scottish resistance and Persian persuader if you don't want to play on ez mode lmao
it doesn’t feel as good to land ib pills
I like the sound it makes when you shoot, sounds like a basketball.
stock and iron bomber grenades are accually simulated the same the only grenade launcher without random pipe deviation is the loch n load
There is one downside to using the iron bomber...
There's no australium variant :(
The projectile actually uses the default pill shape for physics, not its own model. The TF2 wiki says so and even features a video showing proof. The Iron Bomber has 0 effect on how pills travel.
I couldn't verify this second point but the self damage radius may actually be entirely seperate from the enemy damage radius. For example, the Direct Hit's self damage radius is exactly the same as stock's as is the Air Strike's. This might only be a feature of rocket launchers not grenade launchers but someone else has said self-damage is unaffected by blast radius and that might be true.
Yep I think the direct hits self damage radius is there so it's the same to rocket jump with
@@mariustan9275 yes but I don't know if that's specifically added to the direct hit or if it's for all rocket launchers, or if it's for all explosive weapons.
2:13 The model is only cosmetic
Iron bomber also behaves like a cyllinder in the air and surfaces, suffers from the same airdrag and interacts with surfaces the exact same way than stock, a cyllinder
If you wanna confirm this, shoot a grenade down a ramp and you'll see it roll down like a cyllinder (rolling down to a side), not a sphere (straight down)
You're just used to the sphere cosmetic not moving a lot and thus feel it's easier, and also I might add because they're "tinier" visually wise, they're harder to avoid from an enemy POV and feel faster
TL;DR everything is the exact same as stock now in how a pipe behaves
Other than that, very good video, they should nerf iron bomber considerably
Remove the shorter fuse time, and change the -15% splash radius to -20% damage on rollers
A straight damage penalty like that for a grenade launcher sounds harsh. Look at the liberty launchers damage penalty and also look in game to see it's not used that much. Maybe a better idea would to take a look at fishstick's rebalance server and see they changed the iron bomber to be more distinct from stock
3:15 Interesting, never thought about it that way!
Hey, haven't seen you here in a minute! Nice to see a familiar face
Objection : australium
1:06 I’ll say it a combination of the bug and the stats. It is reasonable to say that the Iron Bomber’s hitbox size was marginally bigger than stock however, in the game where player missed things by margins can mean getting the kill, escaping, etc I think that a lot. Added with the fact that players who did not have good aim with stock or were seekiing improvement in their aim switched to iron bomber with the near instant claims of “it feels like my aim got
better”
Remember most of the Iron Bomber positive stats adhere to effects of the roller not when it flies through the air. So again that bug was doing some lift on that end.
Last there is the shape (mesh ) of the Iron Bomber which improves the aerodynamic flow making iron pills a bit faster. This also plays into things but this isn’t some hidden bug but more less how the source engine works. (Just wish the Loose Cannon mesh was adjustable to a proper scale aswell). The fact that both the lower air resistance and slightly bigger hitbox were together on this weapon make a complicated situation to debate outside rollers
(I made this before watching the whole video and you hit on some points already)
Definitely agree. I wish the stock was better so I could use an Australium, but the iron bomber is just too good not to use. Great commentary btw, keep it up :)
Hey, I would full on use the grenade launcher if I had an aussie. Forget the bomber, I like GOLD
It's not that much of an upgrade though since you can still dominate a server with direct pipes. Look at Lazypurppe who uses stock and also plays comp.
I play demo in sixes and use the iron bomber 80% of the time, but the iron bomber does have a range weakness and I frequently switch off of it when holding chokes on process and sunshine. When you have 8 stickies down and are spamming choke with the iron bomber to pressure for a sac, you simply can’t help with the iron bomber because the grenades explode before actually reaching a target. I run loch n load frequently on these long range maps.
In etf2l Loch n load is banned now lawl. No long range spam anymore unlucky.
@@fnutek3720 imagine being european
@@Malarkey01 Unlucky spawn. We still got the goats tho
@@fnutek3720 indeed
Whats your opinion on the quickie bomb launcher (im asking cuz i wanna use it)
RUclips just recommended me a goldmine.
I think a fitting nerf, since the grenades are supposed to be heavy (that's the explanation for why they don't roll around after all) is to reduce the projectile speed too (which also gives them a shorter range). That way stock does have a distinct advantage over the iron bomber as it would have superior range and projectile speed.
It already has slightly shorter range thanks to the shorter fuse time, but that might be a good change that would give it a defined role (mid to short range area denial/spam) without being a better stock grenade launcher. It would STILL be really good thanks to its predictability, just not overwhelmingly so. I like this idea
You could also just make them heavier for a physics engine so the falloff happens sooner.
Default Demoman's primary is his sticky launcher.
The reason why I suck at demo is that i spent so many hours perfecting the exact arc & range of the stock launcher, i forgot how to use stickies effectively.
Regarding the spherical shape vs demo's pills; its a shame source ragdoll physics screw the demo yet again; first with the larger hitbox & now by janky physics.
Heck even the loch 'n load is more reliable than stock because of the faster projectile speed
1. The shape of the grenade doesn't matter. They all act the same as stock, with the same air resistance calculations.
2. The smaller splash radius does not affect self damage. It's a separate hitbox.
3. The shorter fuse time can make it a bit less practical to spam at longer ranges.
The iron bomber should be changed, but not because it's a straight upgrade. Just because it is so boring that it is basically a worse looking reskin. Stock pipes forever lol.
Also nice video.
Counterpoint: i like stock's sound more
Fwoop
this is the best reason to use stock
I play iron bomber 24/7...am kinda willing to go back to stock if i got an aussie tho gotta show the style before gameplay
But ye...after i went back to stock it feels like shit, my brain is 100%adapt for iron bomber only i guess
I also would exclusively use aussie if I had one.
Isn't self damage radius separate from enemy damage radius?
It is. Its another thing this video got wrong.
Just started using the iron bomber, after picking it up from a dead demo from another game, and it completely changed how I view demo, and is making me play him more, really fun to play now.
Ive been using stock and i land like 50 percent of my shots i seitched to iron bomber and it feels oike im hitting 80 percent of my shots
Only time I use stock is to test if there's any situation I might feel it could be better than The Iron Bomber, each time I switch right back to the Iron Bomber. I main this class so my bias stems from my experience.
I try to use other primaries when I can, but when I wanna get stuff done and top score, it's the iron bomber
You still have much worse range with it, rollers are predictable af, so every competent player will dodge them and on top of that it has less splash radius meaning it will damage way less in groups (and yes it's pretty significant in longer run), if you really thing that these "stickybomb like rollers" are that much better then regular ones, why not just use stickies. GL is far better overall at what pipes should be doing (it's better at hybridknight ig, but who cares about such limited demoman without stickies, when we're talking about best weapons) + stock rollers are actually very good if you want to haunt down your enemies running away cuz the pipes roll towards them even if the enemy is outside your range. Also the argument with selfhurting less with the iron bomber is wrong, the self damage radius is exactly same as with stock. Overall it's like, there is that no roll + shorter fuse time stat for iron bomber which can be good in some situations and bad in others so this stat balances iron bomber itself already, however there's also that -15% splash radius, which just puts it below grenade launcher in my eyes, not by much, but it does. Well pretty boring and definetly very overrated weapon. I swear most people talk about iron bomber like this just cuz they grew too much to it.
I agree. I really feel like it's the kind of weapon that people use until they get good with Stock.
Everything IB does, Stock does better. The only real upside I can think about the IB is that at closer range it's easier to hit your pipes, but that means nothing if you actually know how to aim the stock GL.
And the range, is pathetic compared to stock, something that does come into play very often.
Same for defense. The stock rollers can bonce around corners and make enemies retreat. With IB, rollers are just weak stickies with almost no range.
And yes, it's kind of boring, since it really adds nothing to the primary weapon slot. The others have very specific uses. Like the LnL against engineers and 1 v 1 combat in open areas, or against ranged enemies, and the Loose Canon at least has a really good defensive use.
It used to blast radius been fixed for years now
The only thing stock has over IB is *slightly* longer range technically and the rotating barrels make it look cooler
I just want to say that at 2:01 you gave flat out misinformation. Yes, the shape does cause the stock pipes to tumble more, but they still go in the same speed/direction that you shot it in. It doesn’t spread to the side of where you aimed, it just fires straight forward in an arc. I remember a demonstration where it had the same arc/speed as the iron bomber. It does not have anything close to random bullet spread.
EDIT: After seing shounic's video 'the iron bomber has a bigger hitbox (& notes on pipe & sticky physics simulations)', I was sort of wrong. In the video, it mentions that when firing a pipe, the game "randomly adds and subtracts up to 10 units of vertical and horizontal deviation" which does affect what direction it goes in. However, this applies to ALL demoman primaries anyway (also it *barely* affects your aim even at long range so eh). Also shounic's vid never mentions anything about tumbling affecting projectile speed, so that's still misinformation.
"Demonstration" lmao ok buddy. Sure. Seeing a demonstration in a video of the pills happening to tumble in the same direction they were fired does not disprove my hundreds of hours of experience with both weapons. You watched a video; I actually know what I'm talking about. Laboratory conditions are not a real demonstration of how the game works.
@@Stutteringmaniayour wrong. Admit it. It still has projectile randomness and the same shape in the ganes code
Person with hundreds of hours of experience with both weapons; yeah, these are very different and one is clearly better
Guy who watched a video claiming otherwise: YOUR WRONG ADMIT IT
@@Stutteringmaniathat is not a valid point. Just because you have more hours in the game doesn't mean you are right. Yes, it makes you more reliable, but you can't just say you have a lot of hours so you are right.
I like my Grenades bouncing of the walls thank you.
Stock has more range and you can shoot around corners.
I'd counter that having more range doesn't really matter; on all but a few maps, the extra range won't come into play. Also, who tries to shoot around corners?
@@Stutteringmania I mostly play on 2Fort where the grenade launcher is pretty good for those 2 things.
also shooting around corners can be very useful in certain situations, i guess the stock grenade launcher is an incredibly situational sidegrade to the iron bomber, that's wild to think about.@@Stutteringmania
What a strange situation it's in haha
As a loser who plays demo for way too much time I have to say, Iron Bomber is really good, but to be honest demo doesn't really have any bad pipe launchers unless you use the lose cannon in which that case you're just meming and 100% dominanting the server you're on because you really commit to the bit, like Soundsmith when he artificial affects the prices of items.
ok but what about the loose canon ?
you can jump faster
you can deal more damge at once
and it also has a heavier weight
adn the bombs push people so you can in push people at your range instead of walking back
Counterpoint; I suck with the loose cannon, so it's a bad weapon
@@Stutteringmania ok fair point
It all comes down to reliability.
Precisely my video should have just said that
Well, iron bomber is arguably worse for long-long range with its shorter fuze and no rolling. And also in my demoman experience, stcok hits more frequently when i try to spam out an are that i don't directly see.
Edit: i mean, yeah, it's like a jag (but less extreme) - often better with very, very situational downsides that don't come often since it's overall better
(Iron bomber also has a "- you are no more a stck giggachad" stat lol)
Losing long range on pipes means very little since the sticky and quickie bomb launcher exist, which both give demo the range he needs
They certainly can, but that doesn't diminish the GL's ability of long range. The GL can be fired twice, maybe thrice in the time it takes to fully charge a quickie sticky, even longer for stock. If you are sticky sniping with the Quickiebomb, that doesn't mean you'll always have the ammo loaded to capitalize at every opportunity, your ammo being halved makes that more apparent. Swapping to your secondary is an appealing option when your other option is being stuck reloading.
Wouldn't it better to use the lock and load in that case?
@@MetalHopper in this specific situation it is possibly better, but lock n load... is not stock. Unlike stock it has downsides
Edit: also, the specific situation is "i spam far point without seeing enemies directly", so lock n load won't be good here
Iron bomber is sticky spammer's side sticky spammer
Objection: Butchered Bird War Paint.
That and the aussie variant of the gl make it a direct upgrade over the iron bomber
@@Stutteringmania That, and if you can direct hit your pipes 100% of the time, stock is a direct upgrade.
Source engine wonkiness makes pipes too unreliable but technically, ideally yes. I use stock pipes now bc it feels more earned than iron bomber
@@Stutteringmania Yeah, it's also good for shooting at slightly bigger crowds, and just trying to deal decent damage from farther away.
Iron bomber is better, but i think you cant judge the stock as youve never used it
As I've never--the FUCK you mean? I have hundreds of hours of experience with both launchers and said as such in the video? I will not STAND for this slander!
Ok loser
It's really not. Stock lets you have a much larger range like the Loch n Load but with rollers. It's easier and safer to get to a sentry nest thanks to the fuse time being longer than Iron Bomber.
I mean, that doesn't mean much bc stickybombs are what you use for sentries, not pipes. You can charge them for a longer range than any pipe, and the multiple detonations can out damage repairs, which pipes frequently can't do. Ofc the loch n load is the exception as its built around fighting sentries, but stickies are always the best option for that, so iron bomber demos lose nothing by equipping it except the inconsistencies of stock
@@Stutteringmania I main hybrid knight so i wouldn't ever think about stickies. Hence why Iron Bomber and Grenade Launcher both serve different purposes.
@@Stutteringmaniayou use both sentries.
This video is a joke. Although I believe the Iron Bomber is sightly better than stock, this video is literally misinformation. The shorter blast radius only applies to enemies and not the demoman themselves. And other than the low bounce and roll, its projectile is identical l, and the only reason some people aim better with it (including me) is because of its shape, sound, etc. All of that is subjective. This video was horribly researched, and almost all these properties can be found on the wiki. And even if they were true, this video would still be horrible and manipulative.
I was wrong about the blast radius, I found that out recently. As to everything else, no. I've used both weapons and one is far more consistent in all situations, making it objectively better. "Manipulative" lmao.
@@Stutteringmaniajust saying you aim better with it doesn't prove your point. If you look at shounics old iron bomber video, the tests he does say its projectile is identical to stock and in the visuals, it says stuff like 'iron bomber without randomness' or 'iron bomber with randomness'. Please watch the whole video. Or go on the wiki, it also has it on the trivia section. And when I say you are manipulative, you say it is a straight upgrade, even though that is not the definition of what a straight upgrade. You also say every experienced demoman uses the iron bomber but that is not true, and at the end, you say every experienced demomain agrees with you when none of them has actually talked on your video. Please, for every video you make, proper research and I encourage you to watch shounics video and read the trivia section of the wiki before you reply.
Edit: Also the rollers are a sidegrade, I have had multiple kills with them, and it has a shorter range, which although may not be much, stops it from being an objective downgrade. And you using objectively is also manipulative. You can admit your wrong, there is no shame in doing that, but there is shame in defending your video with no basis whatsoever.
The basis of my claims is that I use both weapons and say that one is objectively better based on my performance being better with one over the other. The basis of your claims is that you watched some youtube videos. Look at every top demoman player; they all use IB. It's not manipulative to point out the facts anyone can see. I mean, do SOME demo mains use stock? Yeah! But their less effective because it's a small downgrade. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the IB is overpowered or anything, but it's absolutely a straight upgrade
@@Stutteringmaniayou literally ignore all the points I say. The iron bomber literally cannotbe a straight upgrade, that is not the definition of a straight upgrade. A straight upgrade would be the third degree. The wiki and the shounic video both use facts of the source engine and not "I have a bunch of hours so that means I'm right and I'm wrong". Actually look at those. They are literal fact. Shounic and those who edit the wiki probably have a lot experience on the game, and the people watching your video and believing what you say contradicts your point. And although the Iron Bomber has a larger userbase in comp than stock, saying none use stock would be a lie. But I am repeating my point over and over again, so may I ask, what is your source? When it comes to the Iron Bomber no randomness thing, what is your source?
@@Stutteringmanialol no reply
tf2 isn't a Pay to Win game due to the fact that you get all of the op weapons for free therefore more of a Grind or Wait To Win. but I do agree with the fact that the Iron bomber is demo's best primary and even if stock can still hold its own to the iron bomber. I will always stick to the iron bomber due to the fact it has a cooler name.
demoMAIN here, i think the iron bomber is just instant downgrade cuz it gives u less fuse time, that means u can't shoot from far away, it doesn't roll cuz that sucks tbh it's sometimes usefull when it rolls, especially against sentries, and the less explosion radius, i don't need to explain that one :D
How can you talk about both weapons if you didn’t give the stock not as much time as the unlock? I’ve played lot of Demo as well. Love playing him. I just always go for stock I like bomber. But I just find it more available in close encounters. Doesn’t allow spam that much.
Plus I love bombs bouncing of walls and still doing 100 to the target.
Huh. I had been going under the assumption the iron bomber was a ghey upgrade! Who knew?
The pills fly straight! Stock pills go all over, so stock is the ghey upgrade
@@Stutteringmania ooh, that's a good point! Lol
im amazed that calln tf2 p2w is still a thing in this day and age. not only every weapon drops free. you can trade a single scrap for a weapon that you need. which people where doing always back in the day. and even now you can just litteraly buy ALL the guns that exist in the tf2 (mechanical ones, not visual ones) for less the half a dollar.
even a fraction of the thought that make me consider that person having this thought somehow has them without having a brain.
It's a straight upgrade and it's ok.
I can't figure out if I think it's a problem or not...it's stronger, but you'll notice I didn't call it 'overpowered'. I can't tell if it is or not lmao
Iron Bomber Supremacy 🤝
Stock is better for destroying a sentry gun on the 2fort bridge
I mean, I guess. I don't play 2fort
i will not allow anymore stock slander
Stock is for Chad's, straight upgrade IBS is for bads
recently bought a strange version, ima have some fun :)
i should use ironbomber much more
that's not a lot of hours
No it isn’t a straight upgrade it mostly comes down to preference yes the rollers can be useful in SOME situations however the problem is that the weapon deals worse damage vs groups of enemies and is a double edged sword with the diffuse time because it can shorten your range however the difference between them is so marginally small that it’s outright wrong to say you will always preform better with it and it’s better in every single situation
I hope you fixed your interp settings
Huh? I don't think I've ever touched those
@Stutteringmania tf2 's 2007 net code makes it so that all projectiles are delayed by 100 milliseconds
I recommend checking updated interp settings for team fortress
Huh, I didn't know that
@@Stutteringmania it's to be put into your config files, its a must have
Angry raging obsessive stock/iron bomber fans: 🤬 (calcifying their keyboards with the salt of their tears as they furiously argue their points online even though they only use one or the other because they unboxed a strange one)
Happy go-lucky bloomer-pilled Loose Cannon/Tide Turner enjoyers ☺️🛩️
currently flying across the map (there's a sniper who's soul shall be added to his strange frying pan)
That's a lot of words just to advertise a clear supereriority complex based on, of all things, your choice of weapon in a video game
Haha yes😎😎
although i agree it is a straight upgrade i feel like its not a big enough "buff" to call it better in every way "pipe jumping" is almost always pointless. you're right about air resistance and the "downside" is just not meaningful enough to warrant it even being called a nerf. though the pipes dont get affected in the same way youd think its just a higher ark its not like wind speed is applied its just that stock has a consistent motion until it hits an object once it hits an object it is unpredictable (not super but still somewhat). i do feel like this is a comfortable pick more than a buff it just feel like what stock was intended to be but they wanted to keep the uniqueness of stock without changing the game. this is not a critical debate from me voicing my opinion on the subject as i feel its difficult to put what you're trying to say into words but i agree with this video for most points. simply put iron bomber is just more consistent and the stock is just the first pipe launcher.
so a straight upgrade lmao. all stock has is rollers that are shitty stickies and are a crutch for bad players
@sarahh08 it's an upgrade in the same way that your ears are made in the same material as your nose it's the same but they serve different purposes it's not a comparison really more of choice preference
@@jaedo3o283 what does stock do better than the bomber besides rollers
what does bomber do thats better than stock?@@sarahh08
Almost everything except extreme range (which stickies already cover)
Bro thought he could snuck in that word in the start 👴🏻
Which word?
Try spamming a long range with the iron bomber not stock or loch-n-load. All you do is become a glorified AA gun. The shorter fuse time can actually be a 'significant' downside in these situations. I know it`s very good but annoying snipers can be impossible with it at times. Also I`d like to note that you didn`t say anything about stock`s advantages so you`re making it kinda unfair for stock. You also can`y hit some airshots with the iron bomber i think. It`s not really a downside but sometimes you might just get gardened because of that.
I didn't talk much about stocks upsides because it really has none over the iron bomber. As for range, demo sucks for range in all situations pretty much. Being able to spam rollers from across the map doesn't do much for demoman; he should be getting in there, not hanging back and tickling the enemy. Also, airshotting is more consistent with the iron bomber, not less.
@@StutteringmaniaDirect pipes have no damage falloff though, so you can still go for long range shots
Hard disagree. Iron bomber is not a straight upgrade because iron bomber has severely limited range. Iron bombers shorter range limits his spam. and the arch is worse for shooting over cover. The rollers are easier to avoid aswell.
Also saying iron bomber is easier to hit is literally just wrong. They are both equally accurate. Even if it doesnt feel like it. They have the same air tumble because in the code its the same projectile with the same math behind it.
Also 200 hrs on demoman doesnt make u a reliable source by default.
Range on the grenade launcher isn't much of an issue, due to being able to charge your stickies. as for the rollers, I think IB rollers are harder to avoid due to the shorter fuse time. But maybe that's just my opinion
@@slapjack236 50 dmg every 3 seconds is very different from the potential 400 dmg in 2 seconds that a grenade launcher can possibly do. iron bomber rollers are WAY easier to dodge because they have a smaller explosion radius and you can usually walk backwards and it wont reach you. the shorter fuse time is a downgrade in scenarios where it matters which launcher you are using.
Range.
No aussie?
Nope :( gotta save money
Personal Mini Rant (not toward you) - If you are using the Iron Bomber but say the hitbox and lower air resistance isn’t the reason you used this weapon but the roller are…. Then don’t ever complain about other weapons and “the lack of aim” that you deem those weapons to have.
You’re missing pipes and still getting rewarded not due to opponent lack of attention but due a faster timer.
Screw the people that like crying about skill and aim but use this weapon as a backboard for their own aim.
Idk about the hit box, man. Everyone says it was a huge difference, but i jsed the iron bomber before and after the fix and it feels just as easy. Maybe I'm just oblivious
@@Stutteringmania sorry about the delay so when it comes to the hit box it is knownable that people have claimed their aim has happen to improve when you using this weapon that was supposed be similar to stock.
Here a video from SQU1RRELY TF2 from a couple years ago before the bug was made public. He explains is reasoning why he deem the Iron Bomber superior to stock and why pro might have made the switch. I can tell you now, werent talking too much about rollers.
ruclips.net/video/kwunyl2PF4o/видео.htmlsi=KvsXxLNITadGyDlI
All the points that came up are exactly like what my analsis of this weopen was and what it is. Did you hack into my pc and steal my notepad document? lol jokes aside, brilliant vid
Thanks 😊
stock gang
We know :(
no, lol. can't shoot as far, some situations prove so.
Sticky bombs can be charged
@@Stutteringmania thought we were talking about the primary
The point is that demo has all the range he needs with the sticky launcher. The iron bomber works better than stock at every relevant range. "Worse at long range" would only matter if he had no stickys
@@Stutteringmania ive had plenty of situations happen to me in 6v6, I could spam much easier with my pipe launcher isnt I wasnet using iron bomber, I would rather not use my sticky bomb launcher because I have a trap set up
@@Stutteringmania both have very specific but USEFUL uses for every situation, which is why its a SIDE GRADE and not a DIRECT UPGRADE. (but in MOST situations the rollers not moving are great)
Nuh uh
Concise argument, well put
this vid should be more liked
Agree
demo is a bad class. ;'3
Hey you can't say that about a black man 😭
10/10, underrated af creator.
Thanks! 😊
Do you have thoughts on the tomislav i think its also probably a straight upgrade
The tomislav is SO GOOD...but I'm not sure o would call it a straight upgrade. Tomislav heavies have a slight disadvantage against other heavies; they just plain do less damage. I think it's not a direct upgrade, but it is very VERY good