WHY Spin Serve to be Banned in Pickleball Rules 2023?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 24 сен 2022
- Will spin toss serve be banned in 2023? Most likely it will. Let's find out why with The Pickleball Pirate Keith Valentine! Watch today pickleball TIP in our Instructional series. Stay tuned for more pickleball lessons!
* Support our channel buying merchandise: the-pickleball-pirates.myspre...
* Visit our Amazon Storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/thepickle... with recommended products
Improve your game!
This channel is dedicated to all the gold seeking Pickleballers out there who dink responsibly and stay out of the kitchen. We have all levels come through the channel, but we concentrate on the 4.0s, 4.5s and up to 5.5s.
I started this channel quite by accident, I was recording my games to do film study and get better. I did not have time or money for lessons from pro pickleball coach, so I started watching all my screwups. People that I was playing with started to ask if they could watch too and I said sure. That helped all of us a lot to improve our game, strategy, mental toughness, and techniques. Now we have new pickleball videos published several times a week. We occasionally have pro pickleball players on the channel. Mostly its non pro pickleball players on their quest to 5.0 pickleball. We have all levels come through the channel: 4.0 pickleball, 4.5 pickleball and up to 5.5 pickleball with the pros.
Facebook: / pickleballpirates
Discord: / discord
#pickleball
#PickleballTips
#PickleballLessons 
Спорт
I think there’s a lot of misconceptions about the spin serve honestly, if you search up a video it makes it easy to tell which way the ball is going especially if the server isn’t a master of it. You can only spin the ball forward and get a significant spin on it. So say for example because of “bad eye sight you can’t see the fingers” you can easily tell the drift of the ball in the air if it drifts left it kicks right and visa versa. And if that isn’t enough 99% of people who use it have to slice the ball in the same direction as the spin for it to kick. There is so many tells that people refuse to learn and research because they just believe it should be banned. Honestly just about anybody can learn the spin serve and how to return it with a little research and a little practice. I think it adds an interesting element to the game where people can be creative and deceptive. If people are unwilling to learn how to deal with it it’s the same as not learning to dink you’ll get burned at the line every time.
Can we be clear here, the pre spin (using fingers) is not allowed but spin it with paddle only on a serve is allowed
yes
They should ban topspin and back spin shots too. Those are hard to return. lol
Spin serve is not about spinning the ball of the paddle. It's about prespinning the ball toss with your fingers.
Okay, so putting spin on the ball BEFORE it hits the paddle is not allowed, but if you can manage to put noticeable spin on the ball with your paddle alone, that is still good. Got it.
If the intent of the serve was to "just start play" then why not just have a ref toss the ball into the receiving court? Of course anyone at high level play is going to add some finesse to the serve. I play with beginners a lot and all of them have told me don't hold back on my wicked serve because they need the practice. Most of them have it down after a few tries. Seems like a pretty weak argument.
That's a very poor reason to ban it, especially saying that only a few can master it or return it. It must be some old people that don't want the younger kids to play the sport. I do spin server and I have received a lot of spin serve at my level of play. Do I get an unfair advantage? No. Those advance level players can adapt quickly to your spin serve, so I need to change my serve between points. Do my opponent who do spin serve has an unfair advantage? No, they might ace me for 1-2 points. After that, I know how to neutralize it. If you can't handle it, it means that you are not good enough or can't adapt quickly to change. It also means that you are not a 4.0 and up player (adapt to change of pace) Therefore, people should stop whining.
Definitely "a few can master" is a strange argument. But as mentioned in the video, it brings an element of pure guessing into the sport. Do we really need it?
@@ThePickleballPirates sort of like when you get to the NVZ and have to decide whether to cover the down the line shot or the cross court?
@@billkennedy401 that would be a decision based on the other players paddle position relative to the ball. Not the same as guessing which way the ball will spin when it hits.
@@ThePickleballPirates but all sports have it. I don't think a baseball pitcher would tell the hitter what kind of pitch he is going to make...or a basketball player tells the opposing player that he is going to pass the ball instead of shooting it...or a boxer will tell what kind of punch he would do to his opponent...deception, guessing is part of sports. If a pickleball player decided to play in 4.0 + division and encountered shots he/she could not return, then he/she should stop whining and maybe go back and play in the 3.0 or 3.5 division. I do not think a lot of 3.0's and 3.5's would have mastered spin serves. Yes I do spin serves and have experienced opposing players doin spin serves to me. I learned how to read hand movements, the way the ball was tossed, the server's body position, the way he hits the ball with paddle. Well you are going to argue that not all people can read opponents like that. It's an unfair advantage that I can handle spin serves. To set the record straight I do not do spin serves on lower level players and rec plays. I only do it during tournaments. So higher level players complaining spin serves as an unfair advantage does not make any sense to me.
Seems like a slippery slope to ban something because only a small number people can master it. In my opinion, I think their reasoning is weak. Only point I will agree with is the court space. Handling a spin serve off a short hop when your heels are backed up against a fence is brutal
Sounds like you do not have first-hand experience receiving serve
Ban it!!!
The drop serve is a great serve, hard to return and very fair!!!
Leave it. In time, more players will be able to do it and return it.
Two of the worst PB rules still in effect are, the kitchen line is considered 'out' on the on the serve. All the other lines are in. #2, stepping on the kitchen line is a foot fault during play. I can go with calling a foot fault if your foot crosses over the line, but touching the line, is where I draw the line. CHANGE THESE RULES!
I like the spin serve and I can’t even do it but it makes me work harder to understand it and study the tells. I dealt with it last night and got beat by it several times but the first thing I did was seek this guy out for as many matches as I could play against him. For me it’s all about watching what direction the knuckles are facing and then you don’t have to guess as much. Looking forward to getting better at return of serve against it but I guess I don’t have to worry about it after this year. What if they bring it back down the road. Could be years of missing out on service return improvement.
Good insight!
Heh, I never even thought of spinning the ball w/my fingers when serving but then again I have enough trouble just trying to get my serves in consistently to begin with. But I regularly play w/someone who's been trying to work on a spin serve (by paddle motion, not finger spin) and it definitely makes his serves in general harder to deal with. Even though his spins all go the same direction every time, you don't know how much spin you're dealing with until it's coming up off the ground so really not much time to adjust. If I'm unlucky it goes from a forehand to a backhand or if he hit it particularly hard & deep it spins right into me. But it definitely adds an extra level of guesswork to the start of play that a lot of people probably would rather not have to deal with. I personally don't mind it too much but I haven't played against anyone that finger spins it so I can only imagine that would make things even worse.
Spinning the ball with a paddle only is fine, it's just a question of time to learn how to read it. Prespin with finger makes it hardly predictable.
@@ThePickleballPirates So what they’re banning is the finger spin serve specifically then? Paddle spin is still ok?
Of course
Imagine there are two pickleball leagues with different rules. In one league they ban every shot that "most people cannot master". In the other one, they don't. Where do you think all the best players would prefer to play? Which games most people would prefer to watch? Which league would generate more buzz and excitement? I know where I would prefer to play.
Andrei, you are over-generalizing. Of course the situation you describe would not look pretty, but this is pure fantasy and has nothing to do with "spin serve" case. Не переживайте :)
@@ThePickleballPiratesThis is not about spin serve. This is about "most people cannot master" attitude. I can't believe they made this argument with a straight face. All popular sports celebrate players with skills that "most people cannot master". We watch these players do amazing stuff. That's the whole point.
@@andreivolgin2477 "most people cannot master" attitude is definitely ridiculous. But this is not the main and only argument.
@@MarkNapartovich Reasons 1, 2, 4 and 5 are basically the same. And the reason #3 is similarly dubious - a hard deep serve requires more space behind the baseline than a spin serve, and a hard serve at a sharp angle can pull a returner to the side as much as a good spin serve.
Here are my objections to this ban:
(1) It's pointless. Good players will beat bad players with or without a spin serve. In just a few month the same people will start complaining that the new paddles provide too much power or impact too much spin on their own. We already have proposals to ban ATPs. There was a proposal to ban shots into the body (seriously). Soon they will ask for a bigger or softer balls. Etc.
BWT, I already can hit a serve, legal under the new rules, which has as much spin as I was able to get by pre-spinning the ball with my hand.
(2) Every popular sport needs splashy, buzz-worthy moments. Spin serves are definitely more fun to watch than an "average" pickleball serve.
(3) The rules are being changed way too often. I played in some of the biggest APP tournaments this year (New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia), and not one of my opponents (4.5+ level) had issues with my spin serve. In fact, more often than not, I had to switch to other serves, or mix them. On the returning side, I was more troubled by some hard serves (including one guy with an amazing hard drop serve) than spin serves. A spin serve has its own advantages and disadvantages. We should not rush and ban something after less than a season with no stats or any numbers at all to back up that decision.
(4) Who made this decision? Are they the top 10 players in the world? I guess not. Was this proposal presented to all members with clear arguments from both sides? It was not.
@@andreivolgin2477 1. Correct. But sometimes it's deciding point. I think you just miss the point. And the point is it should be banned because it is unfair deception. Opponents often cannot see what you are doing with your fingers from 44 feet. Even when they can see prespin direction, they cannot see how much spin you put. That brings in an element of blind guessing. This makes the case of prespin serve special, so analogies with other rules change proposal are not relevant.
BTW, the spin itself is not a problem at all, the problem is not knowing what spin comes.
2. Not really, for most viewers it looks like the receiver is barely can play, low level. Watch that first Porter Barr's video, where he won 11-0 with this serve. We have all these ernes, ATPs, berts, etc.
3. Rules change too often indeed. Does it mean the prespin serve should stay? No.
The fact that your opponents did not have problem with your spin serve tells more about your prespin serve skill, than about the serve effectiveness in general. I'm playing 5.0, good prespin serve is rare to see, but quite effective. You can watch the video again to see some real life examples including pros.
Table tennis banned this thing long time ago.
4. From this video you can see that some (3 out of 4) players from top 10 are not fans of this serve either. The talks continue for second year. Probably all arguments were already presented.
In my opinion, rotation by one hand is allowed, but if the ball is higher than the height of the tossing hand when tossing, it can be regarded as a fault.
The Rules Committee voted on 78 proposed rule changes - 38 of which would directly impact how the game is played - but the Spin Serve is all anyone will remember. The reasons for the Ban are lame - #4 If you practice a shot, and get real good at it, you should be penalized because Practice gives you an unfair advantage. #3 - Requires more space _ so do Ernies and ATPs (An ATP ban was voted on) I'm old and short and don't practice Ernies so anyone who practices that shot has an unfair advantage _ plus you have someone jumping out of their court without looking where they are going so an Ernie not only takes extra space, it's also unsafe. Too many rules make the game boring and a boring game will die. To all of the people that are anti-spin serve - who are hitting, at best, barely legal serves (like TM) - the days of the volley serve are numbered. Let's see what you say when they come for it! As it is defined, the current volley serve has evolved to the point of being unenforceable. From the distance a ref looks at a serve, they cannot tell (with today's hand speeds) if the paddle is below the wrist. Most of the swings are less 'arc' and more 'chord' in direction which also brings into question if they are even in an upward motion - particularly in taller players. Plus - where is a person's waist? The only thing worse than too many rules is changing so many rules every single year.
ATP ban vote failed as it should. The problem with spin serve described in details in this video.
The question is, have you experienced good pre-spin serve yourself?
@@ThePickleballPirates I took the time to research, learn & practice the serve. For my time & effort, I am penalized because, according to the Rules Committee, practicing a shot others don't, shouldn't give you an unfair advantage. And yes, This year, the ATP rule failed - just like the clothes-matching-ball rule failed last year. But I'd bet dollars to donuts that we'll see that rule proposed until it is passed. I'm NOT having a good day. Normally I'd go to the court and practice - but that might give me an unfair advantage.
@@billkennedy401 not clear if you experienced good spin serve yourself, or you were just watching videos. It is important to experience it yourself to understand the issue.
@@MarkNapartovich im sorry - i was under the impression that hitting deceptive shots was the goal of the game. I didnt realise the actual goal was to hit the ball back to the opponent until someone mishit the ball. I'm obviously not a high enough level player to understand the concepts this channel promotes. After playing tennis for 40 years, I understand that game, (plus they don't change the rules every year.) Maybe I was too hasty to abandon tennis.
@@billkennedy401 I'm 5.0, senior pro player.
Coming from advanced level badminton, table tennis (I have tennis background too), I know well what deception is, I think you can see it from videos with my participation on the channel.
But not every deception is fair. You can also trick your opponent yelling "look at this bird", and then serving immediately. Is it deception? Yes! Is it legal? No! I hope you see my point.
Pre spinning the ball is banned. Not spin serves altogether. Make it clear.
Literally just sit back and let it bounce high to see which way it’s going, ik people will replay and say “it’s not that easy” but it literally is 😂
the way you describe it, it is practically unreturnable. At higher level the serve goes too fast
Banning spin serves is stupid as all other ball sports use it.
If the original purpose of the serve was simply to begin play, and the for the return team to have the advantage, then banning the spin serve makes complete sense. That's part of what makes it different from tennis. Makes sense to me.
I think it was foolish to ban the spin serve. Sure, only a few have mastered it but what were their win-loss records? Those who have mastered it, how many tourneys have they won? I can get behind pre-spinning the ball with the toss hand and/or off the paddle--as long the ball is visible to the returner. Correct me if I'm wrong, there has to be a stop to this annual rules change. I can get behind The Rules Committee meeting every 5-7 years and not every year. The annual modifications of rules will be pickleball's downfall. What's next? No more Ernes? No more Berts? No more ATP shots? MPH limits on drive serves? It's coming. It's punishing those with competency. 1 thing needs to happen, The Rules Committee can only meet every 5-7 years and any rule change must be unanimous, not majority votes. I sense there are some who will disagree here.
Have you experienced it first hand, or you just watch it on video and from aside?
@@ThePickleballPirates I've been a victim of someone's spin serve. My response had always been a thumbs up, "good serve!" I tried it myself but could never get the same action as Zane N., Morgan E. Shea U. I'm not sure why. My arm isn't crazy about altering my swing path mid-flight just to hit the pre-spinning ball right. Anyways, I'm a big supporter of the spin serve, including spinning it off the paddle. That's just me. In the end, it doesn't matter what I say. And I understand why a body of players hate it and want it banned. Anybody who plays with me is allowed to use it, with one caveat, the ball needs to be visible. If I get ace'd, I get it ace'd. I will respond with a chuckle or a laugh and say "Well done."
While I understand the arguments for spin serves, I think spin serves are extremely polarizing within the PB community at large, with the majority, I believe, not favoring them.
Coming from an extensive tennis background, one aspect of PB that I really like is that PB serves for the most part are not weapons to an extreme. In general, most serves get the ball in play and are returnable for most people, which I believe is the original intent of the PB serve.
At the higher levels, spin serves can be dealt with for the most part, but that's not true at lower levels, which I believe is the majority of PB players.
For the overall good of the game as played by the majority of PB players, I think the banning of spin serves in 2023 is a good move. That said, perhaps there could be some sort of exception at Pro tournaments, though I'd have to give that one more thought. It could just add confusion to the game.
Psh, I think we should keep it around 😎
Too late, Ethan ;)
Even Barr believes it should be banned
Should we ban spin pitch in baseball? Should we ban slice, kick or topspin serve for tennis? Should we ban spin serve for pingpong? If all answer is no, then there is no reason to ban spin serve for pickleball.
you apparently do not understand what was banned. Whatc the video again
@@ThePickleballPirates Got it. Thanks. The title of video is misleading though. It will be a lot more clear to say pre-spin the ball before service is banned.
that's how it was called in the rule book.
If the purpose of the serve is to be able to fake your opponent out and win the point without any further volleying then by all means leave it legal. But, if the purpose of the serve is just as a shot to begin the point and lead to interaction by both players (or teams in doubles) then make it illegal.
Hehe - maybe we just ban the serve and have players toss the ball - underhand, of course - to begin the point. Maybe make the service box 3x3 dead center behind the NVZ.
so much creativity to justify soon to be illegal serve practice already banned in table tennis
@@ThePickleballPirates so much for creativity and innovation in pickleball.
I'm new to pickleball but it seems to me, the fact that the spin is created by the servers throwing hand rather than their paddle is reason enough to get rid of it.
that's not true
@@ManoloFernandez434- Then why do it? If the spin isn't created by spinning the ball with your throwing hand, then what's the point of doing it? Of course the answer is that the spin *is* created by the throwing hand rather than the paddle. I don't see how you could possible say otherwise.
@@bentwookie348 Any spin generated by the hand toss is practically negligible compared to the spin created by the horizontal force exerted on the ball by the paddle. The most spin you can get by tossing the ball is about 30 RPM, the spin generated by the paddle can be over 1800 RPM, see the difference?
@@manohoo- so what advantage is gained by spinning the ball before hitting it? How is it that a spin serve reacts so differently on the bounce? If all of the spin is generated by the paddle, then the result of the spin serve would be the same as any other server and it wouldn't matter.
For rec and non-pro players, get rid of the spin serve. The app/ppa can decide to allow pro player to keep doing it, but I think that will be devicive.
PPA already banned it last year
I think we should throw the serve over… gently.
Banned
For me, I think it should be banned for nonprofessionals and in recreational play but pros 4.5+ can have at it. I believe in the first rule of pickleball: To have fun. Spin serves cause frustration in players, which is not good for the game. The first play of the game should be served in such a way to start the play of the game, not to prevent it. It's the same reason for the two-bounce rule. It's to allow for some play while players position themselves on the court, and doesn't give an unfair advantage to the receiving team who already has one person at the net. Otherwise, it's just tennis, IMO.
Why leave it for pros?
Ban the spin server. It defeats the purpose of the serve. If you're going to allow spin serve, then you may as well have overhand tennis serves. Why make the game depend on the server like tennis? long rallies are what' make pickleball great.
Imagine banning spins or knuckleballs in baseball.
It is not about banning spin. Just spin toss. In table tennis it is prohibited for a very long time.
Spinning in general is not banned, only on the serve.
It's a bummer that the spin serve is being banned. Hitting it is a skill. It has to be practiced to become effective. Would the rules committee consider banning two handed backhands? Switching hands with your paddle? Other effective shots that not everyone can hit (yet)?
I understand that against lower level players it adds to the difference in skill, but banning it seems unnecessary. When playing against lower level players, use a little discretion and just don't hit it. It's the same reason you don't lob people with mobility problems or bodybag 3.0s off of dead dinks in rec play. There's a time and place.
For the record, reading a spin serve when you're returning is also a valuable skill.
I don't see why the rules committee would want to take skills out of the game.
You probably have not watched the video
@@ThePickleballPirates You probably presume incorrectly fairly often. I watched the video.
So how do you see similarity in two hands backhand and spin serve? What is the logic?
@@ThePickleballPirates There are a few similarities:
1) Hitting a two-hand backhand is a skill that takes practice. No one starts off hitting backhands that way.
2) Having a two-handed backhand provides an advantage to the player who's worked to develop the skill.
3) The vast majority of lower level players won't have a two-hander, or at least not a good one. Therefore, it's something seen more at the upper levels of the game.
This line of thinking is only responsive to the committee's points 2, 4, and 5, but I think it's an important discussion.
The notion of banning a skill because "most players cannot master" it is ridiculous. Imagine basketball where dunking isn't allowed.
The "limited number of players", "unfair advantage", and "particularly devastating for amateurs" arguments are bunk. I talked about advanced players dialing their games back against lower level players in rec play in my original comment. In tournament play anything goes, imho. If a player works to develop a skill so they'll have an advantage, more power to 'em. There's nothing "unfair" about that.
Although we understand your point, two-handed backhand is a poor example. Most tennis players come with it right away. Also it is questionable if the shot gives an advantage for everyone (even if learned). Pretty sure tat ex-badminton and table tennis players would not benefit from two-handed a lot.
We agree that banning a skill because "most players cannot master" is hardly a valid point. But there are some other points too.
Where’s Joey 😢
Joey was on vacation, and he's also doing a spin off channel of his own. He will be back with us next week raring to go. Check him out at All In Pickleball.
@@ThePickleballPirates spin off the toss or the paddle?
can you stop calling it a spin serve It's confusing newbies. They think I can't "slice" the ball, that puts a spin on the ball after it's hit.
Spin serve need to stay, it's part of the game, this is the fun part of the game!!!!!!!!
Do you have first hand experience, or just watching?
I be playing pickleball for 10+years spin serve es part of the game, and it should no be remove.
you probably misunderstood. It is actually about prespin toss (with fingers) ban, not about banning spin while serving
pickleball will get more and more rules making it less and less technical, very boring boomer sport.
So far it becomes faster, more aggressive, more spinny, and more intense. Nothing like you describe :) Just watch some videos, compare to those from 2-5 years ago.
I do not agree with this ban. If you can’t spin serve, then work on it. If you can’t return a spin serve, then work on it. This is stopping a lot of growth and talent and will hurt the games of those who have mastered it.
it all comes to if you see what your opponent does with his fingers at 44+ feet. If you do not, you have to guess blindly. Guessing blindly on serve return is probably not a good thing for pickleball, where so much effort already made to keep the server at disadvantage.
@@ThePickleballPirates so someone can launch a regular serve which usually has topsin at however fast they want, but just a little side spin is too confusing? Sounds picky to me. Plus there is less room for error for the server.
Apparently you do not have first hands experience receiving it :) You should. There is a big difference in returning shot when you know the spin and when you don't. In table tennis this little trick was banned long time ago
@@ThePickleballPirates whether or not I found the serve difficult to return or not, I still think this is a bad rule change. Hopefully they fix it, because it was never a problem until it became too hard for some people unwilling to practice returning a talented shot :)
@@ThePickleballPirates also I do have experience with receiving the serve, I find nothing wrong with the shot. I guess we all have our takes.
Keep the spin serve.
Spin serve is a bunch of nonsense…..create spin with your racquet skills…. not artificially….just like ping-pong.
Yup. Keep the game accessible to the people instead of winning at all cost. The game was invented from that philosophy. Something fun for the kids.
If you can’t return it then why are you a pro in the first place?🤦♂️ stop banning shots that people complain about because they can’t return them or do them. Simple as that 😂
You have never experienced it yourself, have you?
@@ThePickleballPirates I do the serve, and yes I have. I feel like this serve is a skill if you can learn it correctly
cheating also could be a skill. For example, overhead serve is definitely a skill. Should it be allowed though? If it is not allowed, why?
@@ThePickleballPirates because they already made it a rule to not serve overhand from the very beginning. They’re only banning the spin serve because people can’t master it and it’s difficult for some players to return. Also, it isn’t cheating for you to spin the ball and you can’t master everything in pickleball obviously because the pros mess up all the time.
From very beginning the server had to be at disadvantage. Prespin serve breaks it.
Also unlike any other shots this one brings an element of blind guessing to the game, which is not good for the spot.
Terrible !!! Let it be
Have you experienced it yourself?
@@ThePickleballPirates yes I have. It is difficult but you can adjust
@@MexBear how well can you adjust? What if you cannot see fingers from 44 feet (I cannot, even I can return this better than many)? What if there is no much space on the court (usual case with nice boxed courts) and the ball bounces of the baseline? Also why make so much effort to leave server at disadvantage, but allow spin serve?
The spin serve does not go well with pickleball serve rules spirit.
And the most important - from 44 feet it makes you blindly guess if not the pre-spin direction, but the pre-spin strength for sure. One can produce enough spin with their paddle, and that's ok, as it can be read unlike pre-spin.
In table tennis prespinning is banned for long time already. Table tennis is a very clean case why this should not be allowed. Prespinning the ball make the serve practically unreturnable because spin plays more significant role in table tennis. In pickleball it is the same problem, just not as sharp.
@@MarkNapartovich then you would lose the point to better player!!! They are younger, faster players that is unfair to many of us!!! Let’s ban them!!!
@@MexBear younger and faster has nothing to do with it. I'm playing with younger players all the time. No concerns. Again, I personally return this serve fine, but it is annoying because this is not what pickleball should be about, it literally take fun out of it.
Table tennis and tennis are different sport with different ways to have fun, so serve without return and poor return are normal and fun in a way. Still in table tennis spin toss is prohibited.
Good bye pickle ball... you are done..... pickleball will only attract and appeal to old folks which is the inention. As a tennis fan can't be happier....
pickleball, while you are at it ban the dink, hard hitting and overheads and anything that wins you a point.