When a book is relationship heavy, sometimes you can fix the "feel" of a novel by doing some tinkering with dynamics between characters. Is there a relationship that feels a little off? Does it need more clarity, less clarity (more secrets lmao), more drama, tragedy, tenderness, toxicity, etc.
@@ShaelinWrites And remember, those 'add-ons' belong in the story. The Story knows it but the Storyteller does not YET know it. The add-ons will be waiting for the Storyteller in the most unexpected places: A used bookstore, a parcel depot, a stranger's words. Years ago I had dinner with New Zealand novelist Maurice Gee who was in London: I said I was rereading his novel *Prowlers*. 'Ah, he's just a bitter old man,' said Mr Gee, referring to the first person narrator of his complex novel covering many years. I told him his protagonist was not bitter. *Trust the Story not the Storyteller,* I said quoting D.H. Lawrence.
"What if I'm not insecure irrationally? What if it's actually bad?" Something that always helps me at this point is to remember that YOU have intrinsic value, as a human being. And YOU are not your work. It really FEELS like it when you put so much of yourself into it, but that's not that. You're not obligated to put out "good" work. It doesn't make you a morally less-good human being. Something something capitalism... That being said, I totally feel the "What if I feel bad about my work because it's actually bad?" AND I feel like my writing skill has always been far behind my ability to recognize quality, so I'll never actually know if my writing is good or not until years later when I look back and see if it holds up. And that's a rough place to be, because that means I am so bad at self-editing. I cannot look at my work objectively... So, I hope you'll figure your way around these mental blocks cuz I'm sure figuring out these bits still myself!
"YOU have intrinsic value, as a human being." I've always disagreed with this. No, you don't have "intrinsic" value. You are not valuable for just existing. Your value is determined by what OTHER PEOPLE value in you - by what you provide to them which they find valuable. But here's the thing: Who cares if you are not valuable to anyone? Do you have a roof over your head? Food? An income? So long as you have an ok life, and you are not hurting anybody, who cares if nobody finds you valuable? At least the people you work for find you valuable, otherwise they wouldn't hire you.
This is good to remember because at some point what if you were unable to write? Like an artist that becomes blind or a woodworker who loses his hands. It is important not to not identify yourself with what you are currently doing. It's just something that's happening, it isn't really you
Hey, as a fellow pantser, my advice would be to write the extra relationship. I’ve had so many points in my current draft where I thought this idea/element/relationship is interesting but irrelevant… only for me to find ways later on to make it integral to the plot. And those are some of the most facinating points of my story because you don’t expect these connections and they are so satisfying! (Then again, they don’t always turn out that way)
I totally agree, I ended up writing it in and so far i'm really glad I did!! You're so right that as a pantser, it's often the stuff you don't fully understand that ends up integrating in the most fascinating way
NOTIF SQUAD But also the fact that u talk about insecurity so openly is so refreshing in a community where things like this are just swept under a rug of positivity. Sometimes all we need is validation that the feelings of insecurity do exist and that sometimes nothing we do can make it sting any less lmao
This is so relatable! When this happened to me, I also chose the “keep hacking and hope something gives” route too, and though it took a long time, some aspects of the story clicked (not all, but enough to finish it). You’re so right - this is the type of issue where writing advice doesn’t help, you kind of just fight with it like you mentioned (and it’s so not fun)! Hearing you talk about this is relieving because it’s good to know that other people go through this (even though I’m sorry this is happening because I know exactly where you’re at right now)! Hopefully NaNo brings something great to the work!
As a writer, overthinking about one's book can be both a blessing and a curse. I have a book that started out as a short story. 5k to 15k max, I thought. Then I changed the outline halfway and thought lets make the climax the midpoint. Then I wrote a new climax, only to make it another midpoint event and I kept doing it to the next 2 climaxes. Right now my short story has turned into a novel of 75k and its still not finished. I have lost a lot of faith during the process. I will still finish writing it because I know if I postpone it, I may never finish it. I don't think I'll ever come back to the story. I have been writing it for 5 months so far and each time I think about it, it gets worse. The main character is just being an emotional punch bag. the other main character is now dead because that's one of the many joys of being a Pantzer. To make matters worse, after finishing this story, I have yet to edit my debut novel of 100k that I wrote early this year, sort of my new year resolution. I was hoping to have at least one novel out. Now I have 2 in the works but my confidence is so low, I don't think I'll write another book next year. I may not even write a novella or short story since these 2 books have broken me in a similar manner. I don't trust myself enough. Hopefully the future is brighter than this.
My go-to advice when stuck: have a dialogue with it. Whether it's a character, a scene, a sequence, give it the mental space of "personhood," and have a conversation with it. I write on the page, you can type, you can do neither, but ask it what is going on, what it wants, what it sees, and keep the space open to the characters around it. It's not the same thing as outlining, the idea is to figure out what makes sense based on what it is. I don't always get the answer to what I started looking for, but I DO get forward momentum, and usually a lot more connections are laid out. Hearing you repeat that you were trying to replicate honey vinegar, I don't know, maybe don't do that? You're the vessel for the story, so let it be itself, not what fits the process that worked before Salt birds is a great title
Seconding this. I’ve written easy and hard books before and the hard always happens because I go in with very specific ideas for the process from prior endeavors instead of leaving space for the project to be its own thing
Advice I've come across multiple times when it comes to the reader not feeling anything for the characters, is the characters probability need more personal struggles, conflicts, and/or suffering. Basically, you may need to treat your character more horribly in some way...emotionally, physically, mentally, whathaveyou.
One of the hardest things to do as a writer is when you read a manuscript that you really like, and has some good writing in it, but you have to say "this isn't working and I'm going to put it aside to work on other stuff." We can get attached to ideas that we're not ready to write, and I think this is what Stephen King means when he says to "Kill your darlings."
A quote that recently changed my perspective on my writing process is, “First you hate something, then you investigate why you hate something. That is exciting - and for creative people, to be excited is the only way.” -Miuccia Prada. Also, please do not let insecurities, mental illness, trauma, etc. Consume your writing process! I’ve written through the trenches of darkness where I believed no one understood me. However, the art that came out of it was amazing, but that does not mean that we as artists are incapable of writing and connecting with our characters when we are happy. Another thing that I pick up from your video is that you are procrastinating. Your fear is telling you that you aren’t good enough and that your writing sucks, but YOU KNOW that it isn’t! So, just write. Write for yourself not for a audience. Lastly, any ART that can’t be outlined is usually missing something. You will NOT progress if you don’t know the beginning, middle, and end. You may have done it without a plan or a structure before, but that work isn’t your work you’re creating NOW. I feel for you because I’ve gone through this. Don’t procrastinate just write!! It sounds like you’re still caught up with your other books. Let them go and FEEL for the work that is to come. :)
Hi Shaelin! I've never commented on your videos before, but you were the first authortuber that I ever watched when I stumbled on this whole world of people talking about writing. And still, your content is some of the only I've found that really dives into the process of writing in the way I wish everyone would. I love the way you explore those feelings that we all have towards our projects that are the reason we actually care about writing in the first place. But you are so spot on, and I think everyone is resonating with your thoughts. I especially could be feeling that way because I just started a new project after being enthralled with the one I put away. I don't have those same positive emotions towards this new project, and it's a bit devastating to not feel that same magic. I'm hoping as I go along that I'll tap into my characters and fix the issues that are keeping the story distant for me. I hope you continue to work out the problems in your story and fall in love with it. Best of luck ❤
I really appreciate your honesty about your process and it's been very helpful to me in my own writing. Understanding when something isn't working as opposed to insecurity is such an important piece of self awareness.
Whole mood My person advice for what saved me was I took a year to write the story with the scenes all out of order, just wrote what I wanted, if I wanted to rewrite an arc I’d already written with new plot I did that I’m just now starting to rewrite everything and put it in order, and it’s became intuitive figuring out what needs to change in this draft to place the scenes in order and tweak/completely change plot as needed
My sister's dog died. ( This relates to your book, trust me.) It was a black and white dog. And a few months later, she happened across a black and white dog at the shelter. She brought the dog home. . .and the new dog was miserable. She wouldn't come when called. She hardly ate. She was not wanting to interact with my sister. Finally, my sister sat down to talk to the dog, and she had an epiphany. "You are not (first dog 's name.). I'm sorry. You just look like her so much, and I miss her so much. But you're not her. You're you. And I need to quit trying to make you be her, and let you be you." Go back, and let Salt Birds be Salt Birds, and quit trying to make it be Honey Vinegar.
I just wrote my first real short story, and could not have done it without your videos. I learned so much about the way I write and I'm so excited to do it again.
I loved how you talked about discovering the ‘sadness of a character’ when you’re a little while into the book! I have this as well but didn’t really think about it until you mentioned it (also I didn’t know other people also had this I thought it was just a me thing) It’s kind of like discovering the essence of a character. human psychology is so amazing honestly💚💚
100% pantser here. If this idea helps anyone other than me - feel free. I write about two-thirds of my first draft or up to the point, I get a bit stuck. Then I create a spread sheet, a list of each scene and notes. I can later swap around scenes. Gives me a summary to review the whole. Hope someone else finds this useful.
I'm unpublished, but Brandon Sanderson says that we find our writing boring when we are driven solely by plot. He says that if we focus on characters and try to make them interesting, the story becomes interesting. It sounds like that might help you.
I recently wrote all the way to the very end-to what would be very nearly the last line-before I started to suspect that maybe something about this story just wasn’t working, fundamentally. It was shocking, honestly, because the entire time I’d been feeling like I knew exactly what the heart of this story was, and that I’d been building to it in a reliable way, scene by scene. Long story short, it turned out that by my last writing session, I’d actually lost my sense for that heart of the story, and wrote a scene that was essentially how the story would resolve if I’d never had the epiphany (an observation made/a “lesson learned” about something in my life) that had originated my desire to write this story. I had a long conversation with a dear friend, during which I pretty much had to have that same epiphany all over again, and then I went back to the draft and wrote the ending that the rest of the story had actually been building to, even if I’d managed to lose my way right at the last minute.
In my experience, this feeling doesn't mean your project isn't good -- it means there's something within it that hasn't quite clicked yet. As long as you stay in the world mentally, I think you will be able to figure out what it is that is missing that will bring it together.
"how much do you put into something in the hopes that it will click eventually?" That kinda sounds like Rowan's plight too actually with the situation with their best friend. Your struggles seem to parallel your character's conceptually and ik that probably sucks to be in it, but its kinda cool too.
This video came just in time. I didn’t realize that was my issue I recently switched to writing fantasy since I enjoy watching and reading fantasy. And I really want to challenge myself. This video made me realize the issue is I don’t feel my characters coming to life. This book is such a struggle to write. Also outlines are the death of my creativity. I am a total discovery writer. I won’t give up.
The limbo between not knowing if your story is an inherently flawed lost cause, or if you're just in a rough patch and need to keep "hacking away," is a hard spot to be in. I hope working on it everyday during Nanowrimo will get you to a spot where everything clicks! I'm doing Nano for the first time in years, and one writing "win" has been that I've discovered a love for writing sprints. I've never tried them because they didn't really seem like my thing, but I'm so glad I gave sprints a shot because they've helped me write so much. On discord they have bots that keep track of your word gain and the time and all that, so it's easy - and, the competitive aspect of it is super motivating.
Current Success: I just published my first book! Current Struggle: I'm trying to start my second. I'm finding going back to fiction writing after years of non-fiction a really hard gear shift.
I'm late to this but I wanted to thank you for putting into words what I've been feeling while writing my book. It's my first book I've ever tried writing and it has been... a struggle. I don't know what my process is and I'm such a perfectionist that I want to plan every little detail but I'm starting to think this is too much of an emotional, character driven book that it just doesn't work that way. That was the aha moment I needed so thank you, and I hope nanowrimo gives you your aha moment too!!
Thank you for doing this video. This is pretty much how I'm feeling about my own work in progress these days. Kind of at a standstill because I don't know which way to turn. I do think I have something really good but it still needs so much work.
There a LOT to be said about how it feels. I have always followed the line someone once told me ‘if you feel it, the reader will too; if it touches you, it will touch others’, of course it has to be written well for that to work. Intricacies of conveying feelings is such a skill. I also think you are an intuitive writer (a better word than a pantser) so there’s a reason you want to introduce this other character into the story, let it develop. I feel you are conflicted between knowing all in advance and wanting to experiment. I actually love how the book rebels against our desired outcome, that’s exciting
I'm kind of in a similar place as you. I finished my first novel in which I have been deeply immersed for basically a decade and whose characters mean so so so much to me. Two months ago I started work on my second novel and I'm still finding my feet there. It's been so long since I've known near nothing about my characters and what they feel like. Now, for some weird reason, while listening to you talk about your writing problem, I had a bit of an epiphany about a scene I need to replace in the first chapter, and that somehow made things click into place to where I'm beginning to feel my main character. It's like I need to find the closedness of my characters, their internality that they'd never share with anyone, so that I can ease myself into their being, feel their borders, their shape, and then write them from there. Somehow I got a bit closer to this while half listening, half reflecting on my own text.
Thank you for being vulnerable in your writing struggles. I wish I can answer all your questions. What I do know is that you will figure it out. Take a deep breath and eat chocolate! Give yourself time. You can do this. Please keep doing video updates especially on this. I know you can do this!
I remember you saying that you get sad for unlikable characters, specifically. Like, the idea that they're pushing people away or making themselves sad but they can't help it because that's their nature. Maybe this character is too likeable for you to feel for them?
Is the character maybe in the wrong world or the wrong genre? A unique or unusual world might provide a thread of consistency that fills in gaps between characters or mini-plots. For example, War & Peace is like 5 separate stories that don't meet for many pages but the war & world events tie the different stories together (and bring the characters together). Dune has such a striking world that it functions like a character in its own right (the title character, in fact!) so different scenes feel connected even though the people may not be.
Writing is such a joy and such a struggle, it's the best thing to do and the most difficult thing to do, it's the total freedom of creating worlds and people out of nothing and the total downer of not doing it well enough - again. You honestly show us what we all experience. I hope you find your 'aha!' soon. Thanks for your videos - a fellow word wrestler.
A sadness about wanting to be loved, to me, is that everything else that you are and that you have in your life feels so empty and bleak that the only way you can be happy / feel something is to gain that love. So maybe the sadness is not about wanting that person, but about what else you’re missing that makes you want it so much? I haven’t seen the next video but felt like throwing my two cents in - for the rest, it’s very interesting as usual 💜
Ahhh, I feel this. I used to have two very difficult book ideas I'd chip away at and feel like I was going absolutely nowhere. I was still going somewhere, it was just this kind of bad feeling of groping around in the dark trying to figure out what the story was and knowing that everytime I'd come up with something it wasn't right. Usually cause I'd realize it wasn't interesting (like stuff that could be summarized in a few paragraphs of backstory) or that it wasn't going for the vibe I wanted. When I felt I was really making no new progress I'd just hop over to the other project and see what I could fiddle with now that I was looking at it with fresh eyes. But here's a good story! Last year I decided to stop shooting myself in the foot and try my hand at an "easy" and "simple" story by doing something that had a pretty narrow genre and tropes I loved. And not full-on fantasy anymore either. Since I said I was only really writing it for myself, I had fun putting in almost all the tropes I adore and its been going really well! Its not overly trope-y though, I am working the whole thing properly and I've managed to do some very fun worldbuilding with it. And that's my NaNo project this year! I'm not aiming to hit 50K for real, but I'll be trying for the daily wordcounts this month anyways just to see what I can come up with. Its kind of funny to me that the experiences you talk about here are the opposite from mine, hahah. I'm used to projects being impossible objects and its refreshing to actually feel like something flows naturally. Don't give up on Salt Birds though, seriously, if you feel the idea has value you'll be able to find its proper shape eventually. I've been working for over ten years on the two stories I talked about and I know one day I'll be a good enough writer to complete them if I ever actually want to. For now though, they're fun to explore with, slowly getting closer to the shape I want them to be. I guess in a way, writing can also be like carving a statue. Sometime the rock is easy to shape, like soapstone, and sometimes its really hard, but there's always something of value to be found when you go digging hahah In that vein and as a fellow plotser, I feel exploring a thread is totally worth it. Who knows what you might find! Exploring a thread is how I discovered the actual protagonist of my first story, hahah. Also, I guess if you're feeling stuck, maybe try leaning in to writing scenes with things you personally love to read? Or make a little list in your head of some settings and tropes that you like/love and can try spinning in for your characters? Like you said in your video, you're your first audience, so gifting yourself things you love to read is almost certainly doing the same to your readers who share your tastes. I've made a far longer comment than I originally intended, oops. I hope you (and whoever else reads this) have a good day!
I totally feel you, and I'm wondering if it's a bit of the curse of 2022. It seems like a lot of writers are struggling this year, connecting with our writing and making progress. I think the thing to do is definitely keep plugging away. Wishing you all the best!
One thing that came to my mind when you mentioned the novel being about "to what lenghts one will go to be loved" was, what's the stakes? If the main chracter goes too far in their pursuit of love, what would be the tangible/emotional impact? What would they lose? Perhaps working on protraying that stakes as something the audience can get really attached to, is the key to making the conflict well-rounded, and working as an engine for the story? No idea if this is an issue at all, but thought it might be wortth sharing. And thank you for the good advice you put out there, it has been really helpful!
Literally everything you just said in this video has given words to the struggle on having with my first big project. I know you probably understand how relieving it is to find somebody who feels the same way you do about writing, it's equally relieving to see other people having the same problems because then I feel like we work through them together. As far as forcing yourself to write forcing that connection, I believe that works too, cuz that's kind of how I'm writing this project. It feels forced at times, but the end product seems to just naturally fit.
I feel you immensely. Struggling with answering the "what is wrong?" question is something hard to overcome aha. I do hope you work out what you feel is missing from the book, and you're able to "feel" the story a little more.
Pants away, you wise pantser! Write that extra character! See what happens! This is the play time, the first draft, the journey of exploration. Put on your adventure boots and lean into your creative process! I think about stories like they're children...they all have different personalities and different needs. Maybe your character is feeling shy and isn't ready to show themselves to you fully yet. Maybe you have to ask them some questions, get them to warm up to you. Or, on a more aggressive side note, I just read a Jack London quote yesterday that I thought was apropos: "You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club." It's a very Jack London, release-the-inner-wolf sort of way of looking at it. I certainly needed to hear it at this time in my writing. I feel you in your time of vague uncertainty...we're all in this soup together!
i've been stuck on a novella i started writing years ago but refused to let go of. i think at some point one of the acts never could leave my brain, so every time i come back to it i just come up empty. it's frustrating when the first time i started writing it felt euphoric but now it sort of stagnated. it's made worse when my more recent works are just written better, so it makes it increasingly difficult to go back to this one piece that i desperately want to finish. EDIT: i've finally got back into it! the key for me was to get back into the mood i was in back when i started writing it and now it's much easier to keep writing even after how long it's been since my last edit.
You are not at all alone in this!! This video is making me feel so seen. I started writing my first full novel in 2018 and finished the first draft within a year. I've been editing it ever since, my beta readers and critique partners loved it. But even after years of reworking it I have several big problems with it and I can't seem to figure it out. Every solution I've tried just creates more problems and plot holes. I can't let go of the project because it has so much potential and I care very deeply about the characters. It keeps me up at night, I can't stop thinking about it, but I've also been stuck for such a long time. Is it that I have outgrown the project or that it has in fact outgrown me? Has my own work become too complex for me to see it through? I wrote a second novel while editing the first one which I LOVE, but I've started to run into very similar problems and I'm so frustrated. Reading over what I've written used to be so exciting, now it just makes me cringe. It has gotten to the point where it's crushing my self worth as a writer. I love writing so much and I really don't want to lose that part of myself. Anyway, thank you for from the bottom of my heart for talking about this. Hugs! ❤
(con't from previous comment) I too have a fear of doing terribly at the line level. My specialty is comedy, which makes things a lot tougher because one lame or awkwardly-timed joke can throw off the equilibrium of the entire work. This results in a desperation for co-writers: the sooner I get my writing process out of a self-contained vacuum, the better. "This new draft will be easy" always happens after you've written something reeeeeally good. I remember drafting 10 plays in a row that were practically stage-worthy without the need to polish. Then I put another 10 on my schedule and only managed to write 8, and only 2 or 3 of those 8 ended up in a condition where I didn't cringe my balls off. At the risk of stating the obvious: Experimenting (with a capital E) and letting yourself write crap is much easier when the stakes aren't as high. My wild guess is that with securing an agent so quickly, the rest of the process will be speeding up and once "Honey Vinegar" and "Holding a Ghost" see the light of day, you'll be expected by average readers to match that quality. Which is a ridiculous expectation. I'm not saying you should lower your goals on "Salt Birds" to the point where it's a lesser work; I'm just saying other people need to calm down. And since you're lambasting the structure you came up with as "just events", my concluding suggestion is to wrap up whatever stray ideas you still need to write down, then take at least a month to focus on the stronger events. Instead of on the entire book. Think of it as survival of the fittest: once you have your strongest setpieces in place, what might happen is that the weak links will leave your book.
Hey Shaelin, just wanted to drop a comment to encourage you. I think persistence, exploration & giving yourself a chance (to make mistakes 😅) is a massive part of writing. Here’s my advice for all it’s worth: could you manifest a character weakness/struggle into a physical/external event, eg if a political opinion is driving a wedge between two characters, then one of them attends a political event against their will (maybe to support a friend), and this serves as a catalyst in deciding whether their current political views/sense of justice are as important to them as a personal relationship; or if a character is struggling over the decision of whether or not to have kids, then they’re asked to babysit for a weekend, or help at a youth camp, or meet an older couple who wished they had kids but do awesome community work. It can seem contrived at face value, but i think you could make it work using texture, and also it might help make things happen with the plot. My other suggestion kinda tags onto the end of this: what would happen if you took one character completely out of their comfort zone? Anyhow, hope it works out for ya. I can totally relate, especially that quote you shared. Best of luck, keep at it I reckon - it might be the seed of a seed, the beginning of a beginning
PS. Salt Birds is suuuch a cool title, I’d be curious to find out what’s behind it, love the “aha” moment when you’re reading the book & realise what the title means!
The struggle from switching to editing to writing again is real. It's like you spent so much time being objective and overthinking that you can't just let things flow anymore. It's an unlearning every time.
When I get stuck I walk out of the cabin and let the sea move my hammock and I take a nap asking myself what would happen next or what would be new or different. When I wake it is either my sciff is under my bow, which happens, or the idea comes to me.
I hope my comment will help. I have had this unrequited love in real life. It still haunts me 20 years later. It’s so deep and changes a person. Consider giving it more time. Maybe your character is waiting to open up to you. Maybe your character feels invisible and maybe no one knows to the depth of their love and sacrifice. Thank you for being so vulnerable. This book which is bringing you insecurities is an emotion you can tap in to. Also, just to hear your heart speaking about the struggle is one many readers will relate to, in my opinion.
I write mostly music, but I've also written a novel and a short story collection and I have several other books in progress. In my something like 45 years of writing one of the best pieces of advice I got was 'write for the trashcan'. At first it seemed so counterintuitive, I think I really was/am a perfectionist. But I was in such a tough spot creatively that I decided to try it. Something weird happened right away, in that I initially went the opposite direction somehow and became even more critical of myself than I had been. But I eventually got loosened up and then something else amazing happened. I was actually pleasantly surprised by what I produced. And maybe the key was that because I loosened up I didn't stop. Best of luck.
I enjoy your videos, but this one really hit. You have *such a grasp on the finer mechanics. I'm working on something now that's been dragging me along for years but I know one day it will click like a lock and all the lights will come on. Do you work in Word, Scrivener, or analog? I would watch a video of you unboxing a Freewrit platform and discussing the ways it affects your planning process versus your creativity. Keep up the great work!
First time I tried NaNoWriMo was when I was 15, I fully pantsed 8k before missing a day and giving up because it was terrible! Barely wrote for a long time, though in uni I did get a very disconnected fanfic up to 35k I was just writing that for fun. I've been wanting to get one of my novel ideas down for so long and now that I've graduated and settled in I'm finally giving it a shot (using NaNo as a kickoff). I actually tried planning a lot more than usual and it's working out really well, already shot past my expectations. It's also helped that I've started reading a lot again this year, and I can't understate how motivating your videos are. They were a big part in getting me through final year, keeping on the back of my mind that I'll finally get time to write if I just finished the damn dissertation! Thank you so much for all your videos, and whatever rears its ugly head in writing Salt Birds, I believe in you Shaelin!
I know that this is late and I am not a published author, so take that what I say with a pinch of salt, but what you are experiencing is the most common hurdle I face when first creating a story, whether it's characters, themes or plot. I like to describe it as the hook or you could say purpose, what is the purpose of the story existing and if you don't know want that purpose is or don't feel that hook then you are going to feel disconnected. And you did kinda hit the nail on the head when you were explaining your fears of experimenting, do you remember time when you first started to write, regardless whether the story was good or bad, because it was good in the moment and that's all that mattered, that is creativity in it's purest form, when we grow older we start to lose that, feeling like racing against time and that there is no room for failure, we stop making room for creativity. And it's ok to be worried about this disconnection but I think you are doing fine, when this happens to me I usually take a break and work on another story, until eventually a hook or purpose presents itself, why not explore the things you have in your story, what you want in it, what works and doesn't, even if that means making a random story to help you get that answer, you want the story to work, and will with time sometimes that's all is needed.
Unrequited love is like the reader's love for a book. We love Jane Eyre and her tale is about what John Fowles called Deep England. You have a strong idea. Everybody can relate. Sybil is overwhelmed by the love she can never have ? We all like weird relationships. This one is with Rowan, isn't it ? (There is also Susanna, Cody, a Dad & stepsister) This made me think of your comment a month ago: *Is that too much to ask ? I just want this book to consume my life.* Love, again. The gulf between the young and old is not so much experience; it is that the old know about time - The Care of Time to quote an Eric Ambler title. An Italian proverb runs : Love takes care of Time, Time takes care of Love. Be patient. Give Sybil Time to emerge. Your deep brain will figure it. In the meantime, walk around Sybil as artists walk around the model in Life Class. Who are you Sybil ? Who were your great grandparents ?
Why great-grandparents ? Well, Walter Scott said there should be a shorter word for great-great-great grandparents. The notion came to me in reading a handsomely designed new edition Vintage paperback of Camera Lucida by Roland Barthes. Barthes is looking at photos of his late mother. *With regard to many of these photographs, it was History which separated me from them. Is History not simply that time when we were not born ? I could read my non-existence in the clothes my mother had worn before I can remember her. There is a kind of stupefaction in seeing a familiar being dressed differently.* Unrequited love compels us to see our own non-existence, in the present.
This is the kind of comment I wish I could read every day! "Unrequited love compels us to see our own non-existence in the present" such an interesting (and almost tragic) idea, thank you for sharing!
@@Barjavelle131 A reformed Swiss theologian described romantic love as the last Christian heresy. Jean Cauvin (John Calvin) said he stayed at home in Geneva one winter's day in the hope that he would see his little son smile before leaving this world: watching your child die is more terrible by far than nursing a broken heart or contemplating one's own nonexistence. A woman I met only once and very briefly told me I should read Calvin's Bible Commentaries starting with the Gospel of John. I was so surprised that I laughed. Calvin was mad, I had always thought. How wrong I was. A genius I only discovered late in life.
I feel your struggle. I had a similar problem with my first novel that I wrote last NaNo a few weeks ago. Something was missing and the story felt boring. Also I couldn't really connect with my main character. I talked about this problem with my close friend and together we worked out what needed to be changed. Have you considered giving those words you've written to a reader and ask what they think of it? Maybe they have a better view on what isn't working so you can fix it. Don't give up on that book yet! Maybe this book doesn't have chapters, maybe it's just paragraphs, maybe this book needs a new way on how the format is. You'll figure it out, I'm sure of it! :D I jumped in to this NaNoWriMo with a story I thought of about two years ago. There is Losts still to find out. I'm a planter so what Im doing at the moment is writing the scenes as I see them which is a mess :P But slowly the story is taking shape and I cannot wait to get the scenes in order and see what material I have to work with after NaNoWriMo. At the moment I'm at 24K (Day 14). This book will need a lot of work but that's how first drafts are, right? And some are dirtier than others. This one is a pretty dirty one but I'll clean it up next year and I'm excited about doing so :D Sending you love and creative vibes
Hope the book will work out! For relationship/character heavy books, I would suggest to maybe separate the characters from each other for some time and have them have their life without the other party for a while, see how they will act when "alone" and they could also think back at those subtle moments or the way they parted, before meeting each other again, which can also go very poorly or very well, depending on what emotion you wish to achieve. I'm doing editing at the moment for my story, and so far I'm happy with the progress, but I do know there will be issues in the middle to fix.... good luck :)
One of my motivations when I feel insecure is Stephen King's "Carrie". Sometimes all you need is another pair of eyes. You know you are a good writer. You've done it before. The only rule is the story must be interesting. Take a break, do other fun stuff, come back to it and ask yourself how you can make it more interesting. Happy writing!! 😊
Thank you for the video. It's very helpful, especially for someone who has a lot of insecurity surrounding my work. I have a lot of trouble letting the characters lead the story/listening to the character. Do you have any tips on that? Maybe make a video? :D Thanks for all the great content!
After your 'chapter hack' worked for me, I think that hack would get some pacing going at the very least. Get the autonomic functions going and the rest will kick.
The better I become as an editor, the more impossible my expectations and fear of the story's huge potential get. When this happens, I try to repeat Julia Cameron's words in my head: go under the wall, not climb over it (so I tell myself to make the first draft "purposefully" shitty, let go of my ego and just finish the draft unless the outline itself is horrible). I also love the comparisons to a sketch or a sculpture: the first pass is always just either some basic shapes in pencil or in clay, and each pass gives the shapes more detail and definition. I hope these thoughts help, I definitely relate to the struggle! So I'd say keep sketching, see what the shapes become.
The issue I have with the “make your first draft shitty” advice that I see many authors give is that the manuscript still has to be good shit if you will. Like the manuscript could be crap but it may be irredeemably crap. George R R Martin for example could write a crap manuscript but we know that if you read it, it would still be good and worth working on. Whereas a person with writing skills that are really in need of work could write a script but it could genuinely be bad. Sometimes I wonder whether authors should be saying “start with a crappy manuscript but still ask yourself whether it’s worth your time and effort (or someone else’s) fixing it.”
@@ottz2506 I don't think I understand your '.. still has to be good shit' argument. Editing and rewriting are for making a text a good one. Now, what an individual person perceives as 'good' is subjective, and thus I believe Cameron is right in advising people to not try to climb over the wall but just go under it. Chasing 'good' is rather difficult without first forming a baseline for what the text looks like when it's 'bad', I think. When it comes to the decision whether the text is 'worth' the dedicated editing and rewriting time, I think the answer lies in the writer's feeling about the premise of it: if a writer is really disappointed about the execution of the story, or the prose, NOT about what the story is supposed to be like, it's worth the effort in my opinion. If the idea itself feels a disappointment, then it's time to search for a better one.
@@keltavuokko You have to ask yourself whether the manuscript is still good enough to work with or whether it’s so bad that editing it would be a waste of your time or others. Yes, make your manuscript shitty but it still has to be good shit and not just really bad. Unless you think that a bad manuscript from George R R Martin would be the same as one from someone who has just started learning about creative writing especially if the aim is for it to be published. I’ve had rejections from people before who will say that what i’ve provided just isn’t worth putting their effort into as it relates to taking it on board and working with it. And that’s fine. You just learn and move on. There’s always next time. People say that there are no rules when it comes to writing. Well there are rules and if you want to break them, you have to know them first. If you’re writing the manuscript merely to identify your weak points and learn then that’s one thing but if you want your manuscript to eventually lead to publication, that’s a whole different ball game. You have to ask yourself not just whether it’s worth your time but also whether it’s worth an agent’s time too. Agents and publishers don’t just take on anything. They have to ask themselves whether it’s worth their time or else writers would be getting accepted left to right.
@@ottz2506 Yeah, but my point is to say that everyone determines the 'is it worth it?' answer themselves. Text can be rewritten as many times as one wants. It's just a matter of does the writer see enough potential in the idea to determine that it is worth the effort. However many drafts it takes to take shitty text to a complete manuscript. It's all about whether the writer likes the idea enough to work towards the vision. If the passion is not there for that particular story, then maybe it's best to let go and move on.
@@keltavuokko If you’re aiming for publication, asking yourself whether your manuscript is worth both yours and your potential agent’s time is important. If you have a really really crap manuscript, you might be wasting your time regardless of how many drafts you get through because clearly what you’ve produced from the start just wasn’t good. You’re better off learning and moving onto the next thing. Knowing when to give up (not on writing, but on the story idea) should be just as important as knowing when not to. Question whether that voice in your mind nagging at you is right and something you should listen to. If you’re just learning how to improve your writing, then sure, allow it to be reaaaly crap, look back at how awful it is, learn and continue with your writing journey. Keep writing. Read more. Read good books. Read bad books. Read books about writing books. Listen to authors and seasoned agents who won’t just tell you what you want to hear and will be blunt. Avoid people who just throw out positive mantras. I’d love to be a writer one day but I know I’m nowhere where I should be. There are rules to writing. There actually is an objective standard for writing. Rules are meant to be broken but you should know what these rules are first in order to break them.
Over the last two years I have been writing a collection of short stories and at that time I was fearful of reading them out to anyone for lots of reasons. Watching your channel and others, attending a writing club, talking to published writers and reading authors autobiographies I finally kicked the thoughts, emotions and fears out of my head (those pesky things do try and come back but I don't let them in). I have started to read snippets to my friends, support worker and CEO, now I'm not someone who seeks praise but the positive and truthful (every time I ask them all to give me the most honest and brutal feedback) responses I have had so far helped a lot (now I understand when they say your cheeks burn with embaressment). May I suggest that you let those you trust read some of your book to see if it conjures up the emotions you are looking for, anothers feedback (good or bad) could help you. Thank you for all of your help and all of the best for your novel.
Good video. The sincerity really resonates. Your discussion of how pantsers write is spot on. We navigate by feeling, especially in books that are not plot driven. I know this was a hard video to make. I can see how much you are struggling. I can relate. I am also a pantser. Like you my first two novels really clicked. The novel I am working on now is a character driven story where plot threads do not weave as tightly as I think they should. Each chapter alternates between the POV of the two main characters. I am debating on whether to keep a very heavy and dramatic story line. It is brutal to write, and, in the end, I have no idea how it ties into the evolving relationship between the two main characters. I have decided to write it and see if it leads to a pathway forward, which is not very clear. If it does not work, I will probably shelve the book and move on to something else and either return to this book later (maybe change from third person POV to first person POV) or cannibalize parts of it for another novel, which I did with another one of my swing and misses. Perfection cannot be the enemy of the good enough, but also sometimes you need to know when to fold 'em. Live to write another day.
You describing the issues about the characters feeling silo’s reminds me of What We Do in the Shadows I feel like season one is a great example of synergy between the characters, and then the later episodes are more silo’d Like you check in here and there with them versus explore their interconnections. Not sure if this is helpful! Might be an interesting little bit of fun research haha
How often does it happen that when you write something and think it's bad, and give it to someone else to read, they think it's good? How much the other way?
I've been writing and rewriting the same story trying to get to the heart of it for years now and only recently have i gotten the right feeling about it that i can write it out again.
I’ve loved your videos for a few years now. Can I share something my favorite MFA teacher taught me? She said: Don’t look so much into what does and doesn’t work. Instead, ask yourself this: “What does your [story, character, etc.] WANT to become?” I wonder if that might help you out with your current MC. Can’t wait to listen to the rest of this on my drive to work!
Objective view is very useful. Helped me a lot. It’s like not taking it personally type of thing . I’d say keep writing and see what happens. What’s the alternative? With writing it is always going one step forward two steps back, rewriting, characters starting to have their own goals and voice, narrative overtaking, so wait till it starts coming to life. Trust the process. Oh and they do say you should never compare it to previous work. When you write something u let it go, nothing will be the same after. Comparison is not helpful or should be present in a new project although it is natural but it’s like comparing anything, yourself to others, one person to another, one event or vacation to another. Is there a point? No.
Several years later in front of my typewriter I remember her, I remember her as beautiful as a flower in spring and I ask myself over and over again what happened to that little girl of my dreams who...
I'm writing an adventure-focused dungeon crawler crossover starring myself. I've been discovery writing with a very vague idea of the world, the mystery of how we got there and urgency of characters wanting to return to their world and 'myself' desiring the opposite is the driving force. As of now, it's just a bunch of folks getting to know and trust each other, overcoming classic dungeon monsters, I'm losing the spark, have been losing it for months now. I enjoy writing interactions between the characters, but progression of plot is... Almost non-existent.
Don't start a new project with preconceived notions that since the other one was easy, this should be too. It stifles your writing. Projects are like characters. As you write, you learn more about them. No two works are the same even if it's written by the same person. Start each work with a clean slate. You'll discover things as you go. After all, that's what's fun about making things up! Don't take yourself too seriously 😊
"fear of writing bad words" is so real like no matter how many times i tell myself "first drafts are allowed to be shitty" lmao it's just like if it's not immediately coming together it's still so easy to panic so it's so hard to just roll with it and keep writing and see what happens and fix the problems later. like even if they're really huge problems! i can still make those massive edits and revisions later once i have some stuff on paper and i know this but argh. so anyways yeah i relate to some of this video so hard 😅 it's also super understandable that you're struggling w salt birds, given comparing to your other books and esp given how excited you were to start it!! it has a lot to live up to. and also... i suspect that your growth as a writer (which im sure you know sometimes happens out of our own sight) might be shown in how your standards for what you feel good about are maybe higher? idk but it sounds like it could be at play so figured i'd chuck it out there. thanks for sharing as always. it's always incredible to get an insight into your mind at work and your writing process. you're an inspiration! hope that making this video helped you move forward in whichever direction works for you 💖 go go salt birds! come alive!! we believe in you!!!
It sounds to me like your characters might actually have some threads of shared dramatic backstory that you as the author have not become consciously aware of yet. This would be the energy current which would be informing all the small, subtle interactions. But since you as author may not have discovered this missing piece(s) of backstory, it feels as though you are flying blind. It would make a satisfying ending to have all the mysterious and seemingly unrelated threads suddenly come together, joined by some previous event(s) that the reader is only now learning of. I don't know if this even fits, but I'm thinking if you start to get discouraged, chugging forward on pure faith alone, it might help to journal or write a letter as your main character and see what can be mined from their unacknowledged past.
I recently lost all my notes, outlines, chapters and worldbuilding from my pc breaking down! Really suck but now I will start over and perhaps be better? Hope so, very insecure that I wont be able to recreate it.
Personally I think you should add that plot point you are not so sure about. See where it leads you. Usually even if you don’t know why you want to write that particular part of the book your subconscious already knows. It just needs to simmer for a while in the pages until you find the connection that is already somewhere in there. And if it ends up just flopping then remove it afterwards. Somewhere I read that coincidences are the product of good design. So if by “coincidence” you find a thread you can pull from to join that plot point to the rest of the novel it will be because from its conception it was meant to be that. Your mind was just a little bit ahead of you
I think a good starting point to figuring out how to weave different plot threads is to ask : what are the similarities and differences between the threads/character relationship? Can beats of the threads be juxtaposed to contrast or mirror and expose either those commonalities or differences?
"Now that there's a building narrative that is stronger than the narrative in my book -- of me fighting with this book." Whoa, that must feel weird. I hope the daily immersion helps. I'm a more plot-heavy writer, but my current book was stalling, at least emotionally for me, until I recently realized how the series antagonist, who as plotted had one appearance to interact with this book's villain, will instead have a few scenes throughout with other characters... and a twisty and horrific final scene that gives the book a real punch it otherwise lacked.
Tnx for the talk, my writing success is going to be similar as yours. I will stop starting into it and just write bad for some time. For those things on which I do not have an answer I use time. Usually time tells me what to do next.
im curious about what you said about not knowing what a chapter looks for for that book. i hope you try to experiment with different ways to make a chapter. a lot of nonfiction work does this really well. when i have had issues with my own nonfiction work, a lot of the time it's a structure or pov thing. is my structure all wrong? how does this story need to be told? who is telling it, when are they telling it, and why? would love to hear about any writing updates you have.
I do the same. I’m at 119 k and have some dialogue issues and tags I need to correct. Instead of doing that now I’m in the 2nd story. I have three stories up in Scrivener and adjust them at the same time to keep momentum with the characters and flow. I always do things three at a time so I can tighten my stories. Maybe you could do this except instead of stories your three act story structure instead. See it all at this be time.
I wonder if you need to take a step back and let the characters talk to each other in different stages of their relationship evolution and in different settings. Maybe once you’ve written a whole bunch of scenes like this you’ll be able to see the threads of what the scenes are for more clearly. It sounds like trying to write it linearly is holding you back. Good luck, however you proceed. ❤
Shaelin, I hope you figure out what to do with your book soon! I'm a Methodological Pantser / Intuitive Pantser myself, and Story Engineering is very helpful for me, especially now that I'm rewriting my screenplay again. Oh yeah, I wanted to ask if you listen to the UK band Placebo. The album cover art for their album "Sleeping with Ghosts" is what I think of when I hear you talk about your story Holding a Ghost.
I finished my book I've been writing for two years last month and set it forward. And I've been super excited to start writing a project I've been planning since 2020 for this year's nanowrimo. And after 3 days i wanted to give up.... It's really difficult to go from working on something that's at a place where you are really happy with it to a completely new project. Cus suddenly it feels like all your writing is shit and how did you even think you were a good writer.....
Something I do when I have trouble getting in a characters head is to do some free writing from that character's perspective. It probably won't be seen, but it can help a lot to understand that characters mindset.
Well, I finished the first draft of a 240k novel last month, which feels like a success, if that helps...? To give me a break from it before I revise (and probably/hopefully cut!) I'm NaNo-ing with a brand new project, which has only clocked up 2.2k so far, but I have this evening ahead of me for writing...
I dunno. IMHO 80 pages is nothing to have to throw out. Maybe your book hasn't started yet. Maybe you just have to keep writing until it starts for you. Maybe there are parts that are usable but you won't know until you get further into it. I know you are going to do fine because it's obvious you are very, very bright. Me, I'm just doing 3 pages a day for Nano. 6.67 pages a day when I forgot all about Nano is too much when I haven't spent all of October preparing. So I'm just going to write until the end of Nov and take the recommended week off and then see what I have. Also I have bunch of books on the craft I have to read so I can do less intuitive writing and more calculated writing. So I won't do Nano according to the "rules," but it will still be a productive month. Nano is way too much for new writers and a great way to fail according to it's rules. Who needs failure? That's somebody else's rules, not my rules. It ought to be about set your own reasonable goal, and if you get it done, then you get the t-shirt.
Apologies in advance if I’ve commented this previously… The coupling (as it coupling moment of physics’ mechanics of materials) relationship between Awareness & Focus applies here. One can get caught on the swirling vortex of focusing on the blade of the evergreen at the expense of missing the shading canopy of the forest. One can also become distracted by the majestic view of the forest [awareness] & miss the seed before taking root to germinate.
Something that helped me with my insecurities about writing was to read a published novel that people seem to enjoy a lot in general, that I see massive character development and worldbuilding problems in and so on. The idea is to tell myself that I know I could clearly write that story better, so if they can get published and people love it, then my novel could be too even with many flaws in the end.
When a book is relationship heavy, sometimes you can fix the "feel" of a novel by doing some tinkering with dynamics between characters. Is there a relationship that feels a little off? Does it need more clarity, less clarity (more secrets lmao), more drama, tragedy, tenderness, toxicity, etc.
Okay but ‘add secrets, drama, tragedy, tenderness, and toxicity’ is my fav writing advice ever you’re a genius
@@ShaelinWrites And remember, those 'add-ons' belong in the story. The Story knows it but the Storyteller does not YET know it.
The add-ons will be waiting for the Storyteller in the most unexpected places: A used bookstore, a parcel depot, a stranger's words.
Years ago I had dinner with New Zealand novelist Maurice Gee who was in London: I said I was rereading his novel *Prowlers*.
'Ah, he's just a bitter old man,' said Mr Gee, referring to the first person narrator of his complex novel covering many years.
I told him his protagonist was not bitter. *Trust the Story not the Storyteller,* I said quoting D.H. Lawrence.
Good advice, yes, the feel of the novel
This is the best writing advice I’ve ever saw! 🎉 thank you
"What if I'm not insecure irrationally? What if it's actually bad?"
Something that always helps me at this point is to remember that YOU have intrinsic value, as a human being. And YOU are not your work. It really FEELS like it when you put so much of yourself into it, but that's not that. You're not obligated to put out "good" work. It doesn't make you a morally less-good human being. Something something capitalism...
That being said, I totally feel the "What if I feel bad about my work because it's actually bad?"
AND I feel like my writing skill has always been far behind my ability to recognize quality, so I'll never actually know if my writing is good or not until years later when I look back and see if it holds up. And that's a rough place to be, because that means I am so bad at self-editing. I cannot look at my work objectively...
So, I hope you'll figure your way around these mental blocks cuz I'm sure figuring out these bits still myself!
"YOU have intrinsic value, as a human being." I've always disagreed with this. No, you don't have "intrinsic" value. You are not valuable for just existing. Your value is determined by what OTHER PEOPLE value in you - by what you provide to them which they find valuable.
But here's the thing: Who cares if you are not valuable to anyone? Do you have a roof over your head? Food? An income? So long as you have an ok life, and you are not hurting anybody, who cares if nobody finds you valuable? At least the people you work for find you valuable, otherwise they wouldn't hire you.
This is good to remember because at some point what if you were unable to write? Like an artist that becomes blind or a woodworker who loses his hands. It is important not to not identify yourself with what you are currently doing. It's just something that's happening, it isn't really you
Hey, as a fellow pantser, my advice would be to write the extra relationship. I’ve had so many points in my current draft where I thought this idea/element/relationship is interesting but irrelevant… only for me to find ways later on to make it integral to the plot. And those are some of the most facinating points of my story because you don’t expect these connections and they are so satisfying! (Then again, they don’t always turn out that way)
I totally agree, I ended up writing it in and so far i'm really glad I did!! You're so right that as a pantser, it's often the stuff you don't fully understand that ends up integrating in the most fascinating way
NOTIF SQUAD
But also the fact that u talk about insecurity so openly is so refreshing in a community where things like this are just swept under a rug of positivity. Sometimes all we need is validation that the feelings of insecurity do exist and that sometimes nothing we do can make it sting any less lmao
This is so relatable! When this happened to me, I also chose the “keep hacking and hope something gives” route too, and though it took a long time, some aspects of the story clicked (not all, but enough to finish it). You’re so right - this is the type of issue where writing advice doesn’t help, you kind of just fight with it like you mentioned (and it’s so not fun)! Hearing you talk about this is relieving because it’s good to know that other people go through this (even though I’m sorry this is happening because I know exactly where you’re at right now)! Hopefully NaNo brings something great to the work!
As a writer, overthinking about one's book can be both a blessing and a curse. I have a book that started out as a short story. 5k to 15k max, I thought. Then I changed the outline halfway and thought lets make the climax the midpoint. Then I wrote a new climax, only to make it another midpoint event and I kept doing it to the next 2 climaxes. Right now my short story has turned into a novel of 75k and its still not finished. I have lost a lot of faith during the process. I will still finish writing it because I know if I postpone it, I may never finish it. I don't think I'll ever come back to the story. I have been writing it for 5 months so far and each time I think about it, it gets worse. The main character is just being an emotional punch bag. the other main character is now dead because that's one of the many joys of being a Pantzer.
To make matters worse, after finishing this story, I have yet to edit my debut novel of 100k that I wrote early this year, sort of my new year resolution. I was hoping to have at least one novel out. Now I have 2 in the works but my confidence is so low, I don't think I'll write another book next year. I may not even write a novella or short story since these 2 books have broken me in a similar manner. I don't trust myself enough. Hopefully the future is brighter than this.
Chin up and keep on keeping on.
my heart just sank on the video title alone......Hope you're okay shaelin!
thank you, I am okay!!
@@ShaelinWrites Hello, Shaelin. My name is Zaire Haylock. I am working on my own book called "Life as a G4 Fan".
Seriously, these types of videos make me feel sooooo happy. So relatable. I am right there with you in my current short.
My go-to advice when stuck: have a dialogue with it. Whether it's a character, a scene, a sequence, give it the mental space of "personhood," and have a conversation with it. I write on the page, you can type, you can do neither, but ask it what is going on, what it wants, what it sees, and keep the space open to the characters around it. It's not the same thing as outlining, the idea is to figure out what makes sense based on what it is. I don't always get the answer to what I started looking for, but I DO get forward momentum, and usually a lot more connections are laid out.
Hearing you repeat that you were trying to replicate honey vinegar, I don't know, maybe don't do that? You're the vessel for the story, so let it be itself, not what fits the process that worked before
Salt birds is a great title
Seconding this. I’ve written easy and hard books before and the hard always happens because I go in with very specific ideas for the process from prior endeavors instead of leaving space for the project to be its own thing
Advice I've come across multiple times when it comes to the reader not feeling anything for the characters, is the characters probability need more personal struggles, conflicts, and/or suffering. Basically, you may need to treat your character more horribly in some way...emotionally, physically, mentally, whathaveyou.
One of the hardest things to do as a writer is when you read a manuscript that you really like, and has some good writing in it, but you have to say "this isn't working and I'm going to put it aside to work on other stuff." We can get attached to ideas that we're not ready to write, and I think this is what Stephen King means when he says to "Kill your darlings."
A quote that recently changed my perspective on my writing process is, “First you hate something, then you investigate why you hate something. That is exciting - and for creative people, to be excited is the only way.” -Miuccia Prada. Also, please do not let insecurities, mental illness, trauma, etc. Consume your writing process! I’ve written through the trenches of darkness where I believed no one understood me. However, the art that came out of it was amazing, but that does not mean that we as artists are incapable of writing and connecting with our characters when we are happy. Another thing that I pick up from your video is that you are procrastinating. Your fear is telling you that you aren’t good enough and that your writing sucks, but YOU KNOW that it isn’t! So, just write. Write for yourself not for a audience. Lastly, any ART that can’t be outlined is usually missing something. You will NOT progress if you don’t know the beginning, middle, and end. You may have done it without a plan or a structure before, but that work isn’t your work you’re creating NOW. I feel for you because I’ve gone through this. Don’t procrastinate just write!! It sounds like you’re still caught up with your other books. Let them go and FEEL for the work that is to come. :)
Hi Shaelin! I've never commented on your videos before, but you were the first authortuber that I ever watched when I stumbled on this whole world of people talking about writing. And still, your content is some of the only I've found that really dives into the process of writing in the way I wish everyone would. I love the way you explore those feelings that we all have towards our projects that are the reason we actually care about writing in the first place. But you are so spot on, and I think everyone is resonating with your thoughts. I especially could be feeling that way because I just started a new project after being enthralled with the one I put away. I don't have those same positive emotions towards this new project, and it's a bit devastating to not feel that same magic. I'm hoping as I go along that I'll tap into my characters and fix the issues that are keeping the story distant for me. I hope you continue to work out the problems in your story and fall in love with it. Best of luck ❤
I really appreciate your honesty about your process and it's been very helpful to me in my own writing. Understanding when something isn't working as opposed to insecurity is such an important piece of self awareness.
Whole mood
My person advice for what saved me was I took a year to write the story with the scenes all out of order, just wrote what I wanted, if I wanted to rewrite an arc I’d already written with new plot I did that
I’m just now starting to rewrite everything and put it in order, and it’s became intuitive figuring out what needs to change in this draft to place the scenes in order and tweak/completely change plot as needed
My sister's dog died. ( This relates to your book, trust me.) It was a black and white dog. And a few months later, she happened across a black and white dog at the shelter. She brought the dog home. . .and the new dog was miserable. She wouldn't come when called. She hardly ate. She was not wanting to interact with my sister. Finally, my sister sat down to talk to the dog, and she had an epiphany.
"You are not (first dog 's name.). I'm sorry. You just look like her so much, and I miss her so much. But you're not her. You're you. And I need to quit trying to make you be her, and let you be you."
Go back, and let Salt Birds be Salt Birds, and quit trying to make it be Honey Vinegar.
I just wrote my first real short story, and could not have done it without your videos. I learned so much about the way I write and I'm so excited to do it again.
I loved how you talked about discovering the ‘sadness of a character’ when you’re a little while into the book! I have this as well but didn’t really think about it until you mentioned it (also I didn’t know other people also had this I thought it was just a me thing)
It’s kind of like discovering the essence of a character. human psychology is so amazing honestly💚💚
100% pantser here. If this idea helps anyone other than me - feel free.
I write about two-thirds of my first draft or up to the point, I get a bit stuck. Then I create a spread sheet, a list of each scene and notes. I can later swap around scenes. Gives me a summary to review the whole. Hope someone else finds this useful.
I'm unpublished, but Brandon Sanderson says that we find our writing boring when we are driven solely by plot. He says that if we focus on characters and try to make them interesting, the story becomes interesting. It sounds like that might help you.
Love this kind of stuff! Honesty with your own work is so tough
I recently wrote all the way to the very end-to what would be very nearly the last line-before I started to suspect that maybe something about this story just wasn’t working, fundamentally. It was shocking, honestly, because the entire time I’d been feeling like I knew exactly what the heart of this story was, and that I’d been building to it in a reliable way, scene by scene. Long story short, it turned out that by my last writing session, I’d actually lost my sense for that heart of the story, and wrote a scene that was essentially how the story would resolve if I’d never had the epiphany (an observation made/a “lesson learned” about something in my life) that had originated my desire to write this story. I had a long conversation with a dear friend, during which I pretty much had to have that same epiphany all over again, and then I went back to the draft and wrote the ending that the rest of the story had actually been building to, even if I’d managed to lose my way right at the last minute.
In my experience, this feeling doesn't mean your project isn't good -- it means there's something within it that hasn't quite clicked yet. As long as you stay in the world mentally, I think you will be able to figure out what it is that is missing that will bring it together.
This is very encouraging!!
"how much do you put into something in the hopes that it will click eventually?" That kinda sounds like Rowan's plight too actually with the situation with their best friend. Your struggles seem to parallel your character's conceptually and ik that probably sucks to be in it, but its kinda cool too.
This video came just in time. I didn’t realize that was my issue I recently switched to writing fantasy since I enjoy watching and reading fantasy. And I really want to challenge myself. This video made me realize the issue is I don’t feel my characters coming to life. This book is such a struggle to write. Also outlines are the death of my creativity. I am a total discovery writer. I won’t give up.
The limbo between not knowing if your story is an inherently flawed lost cause, or if you're just in a rough patch and need to keep "hacking away," is a hard spot to be in. I hope working on it everyday during Nanowrimo will get you to a spot where everything clicks! I'm doing Nano for the first time in years, and one writing "win" has been that I've discovered a love for writing sprints. I've never tried them because they didn't really seem like my thing, but I'm so glad I gave sprints a shot because they've helped me write so much. On discord they have bots that keep track of your word gain and the time and all that, so it's easy - and, the competitive aspect of it is super motivating.
Current Success: I just published my first book!
Current Struggle: I'm trying to start my second. I'm finding going back to fiction writing after years of non-fiction a really hard gear shift.
I'm late to this but I wanted to thank you for putting into words what I've been feeling while writing my book. It's my first book I've ever tried writing and it has been... a struggle. I don't know what my process is and I'm such a perfectionist that I want to plan every little detail but I'm starting to think this is too much of an emotional, character driven book that it just doesn't work that way. That was the aha moment I needed so thank you, and I hope nanowrimo gives you your aha moment too!!
Thank you for doing this video. This is pretty much how I'm feeling about my own work in progress these days. Kind of at a standstill because I don't know which way to turn. I do think I have something really good but it still needs so much work.
There a LOT to be said about how it feels. I have always followed the line someone once told me ‘if you feel it, the reader will too; if it touches you, it will touch others’, of course it has to be written well for that to work. Intricacies of conveying feelings is such a skill. I also think you are an intuitive writer (a better word than a pantser) so there’s a reason you want to introduce this other character into the story, let it develop. I feel you are conflicted between knowing all in advance and wanting to experiment. I actually love how the book rebels against our desired outcome, that’s exciting
I resonate so much with a lot of what you’re saying in my current project, it’s so nice to hear someone put words to it.
"Rubber duck debugging" is underrated. I hope you'll figure something out after laying out your entire writing process so thoroughly!
I'm kind of in a similar place as you. I finished my first novel in which I have been deeply immersed for basically a decade and whose characters mean so so so much to me. Two months ago I started work on my second novel and I'm still finding my feet there. It's been so long since I've known near nothing about my characters and what they feel like.
Now, for some weird reason, while listening to you talk about your writing problem, I had a bit of an epiphany about a scene I need to replace in the first chapter, and that somehow made things click into place to where I'm beginning to feel my main character.
It's like I need to find the closedness of my characters, their internality that they'd never share with anyone, so that I can ease myself into their being, feel their borders, their shape, and then write them from there. Somehow I got a bit closer to this while half listening, half reflecting on my own text.
Thank you for being vulnerable in your writing struggles. I wish I can answer all your questions. What I do know is that you will figure it out. Take a deep breath and eat chocolate! Give yourself time. You can do this. Please keep doing video updates especially on this. I know you can do this!
I remember you saying that you get sad for unlikable characters, specifically. Like, the idea that they're pushing people away or making themselves sad but they can't help it because that's their nature. Maybe this character is too likeable for you to feel for them?
They're actually pretty unlikeable haha I think part of the problem is I keep worrying that they have no sympathetic qualities at all lol
I think the element you are missing is « synergy » between plot threads, which when combined, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts
Is the character maybe in the wrong world or the wrong genre? A unique or unusual world might provide a thread of consistency that fills in gaps between characters or mini-plots. For example, War & Peace is like 5 separate stories that don't meet for many pages but the war & world events tie the different stories together (and bring the characters together). Dune has such a striking world that it functions like a character in its own right (the title character, in fact!) so different scenes feel connected even though the people may not be.
Writing is such a joy and such a struggle, it's the best thing to do and the most difficult thing to do, it's the total freedom of creating worlds and people out of nothing and the total downer of not doing it well enough - again. You honestly show us what we all experience. I hope you find your 'aha!' soon. Thanks for your videos - a fellow word wrestler.
A sadness about wanting to be loved, to me, is that everything else that you are and that you have in your life feels so empty and bleak that the only way you can be happy / feel something is to gain that love. So maybe the sadness is not about wanting that person, but about what else you’re missing that makes you want it so much? I haven’t seen the next video but felt like throwing my two cents in - for the rest, it’s very interesting as usual 💜
Ahhh, I feel this. I used to have two very difficult book ideas I'd chip away at and feel like I was going absolutely nowhere. I was still going somewhere, it was just this kind of bad feeling of groping around in the dark trying to figure out what the story was and knowing that everytime I'd come up with something it wasn't right. Usually cause I'd realize it wasn't interesting (like stuff that could be summarized in a few paragraphs of backstory) or that it wasn't going for the vibe I wanted. When I felt I was really making no new progress I'd just hop over to the other project and see what I could fiddle with now that I was looking at it with fresh eyes.
But here's a good story! Last year I decided to stop shooting myself in the foot and try my hand at an "easy" and "simple" story by doing something that had a pretty narrow genre and tropes I loved. And not full-on fantasy anymore either. Since I said I was only really writing it for myself, I had fun putting in almost all the tropes I adore and its been going really well! Its not overly trope-y though, I am working the whole thing properly and I've managed to do some very fun worldbuilding with it. And that's my NaNo project this year! I'm not aiming to hit 50K for real, but I'll be trying for the daily wordcounts this month anyways just to see what I can come up with.
Its kind of funny to me that the experiences you talk about here are the opposite from mine, hahah. I'm used to projects being impossible objects and its refreshing to actually feel like something flows naturally. Don't give up on Salt Birds though, seriously, if you feel the idea has value you'll be able to find its proper shape eventually. I've been working for over ten years on the two stories I talked about and I know one day I'll be a good enough writer to complete them if I ever actually want to. For now though, they're fun to explore with, slowly getting closer to the shape I want them to be.
I guess in a way, writing can also be like carving a statue. Sometime the rock is easy to shape, like soapstone, and sometimes its really hard, but there's always something of value to be found when you go digging hahah
In that vein and as a fellow plotser, I feel exploring a thread is totally worth it. Who knows what you might find! Exploring a thread is how I discovered the actual protagonist of my first story, hahah.
Also, I guess if you're feeling stuck, maybe try leaning in to writing scenes with things you personally love to read? Or make a little list in your head of some settings and tropes that you like/love and can try spinning in for your characters? Like you said in your video, you're your first audience, so gifting yourself things you love to read is almost certainly doing the same to your readers who share your tastes.
I've made a far longer comment than I originally intended, oops. I hope you (and whoever else reads this) have a good day!
I totally feel you, and I'm wondering if it's a bit of the curse of 2022. It seems like a lot of writers are struggling this year, connecting with our writing and making progress. I think the thing to do is definitely keep plugging away. Wishing you all the best!
One thing that came to my mind when you mentioned the novel being about "to what lenghts one will go to be loved" was, what's the stakes? If the main chracter goes too far in their pursuit of love, what would be the tangible/emotional impact? What would they lose? Perhaps working on protraying that stakes as something the audience can get really attached to, is the key to making the conflict well-rounded, and working as an engine for the story? No idea if this is an issue at all, but thought it might be wortth sharing. And thank you for the good advice you put out there, it has been really helpful!
Literally everything you just said in this video has given words to the struggle on having with my first big project. I know you probably understand how relieving it is to find somebody who feels the same way you do about writing, it's equally relieving to see other people having the same problems because then I feel like we work through them together. As far as forcing yourself to write forcing that connection, I believe that works too, cuz that's kind of how I'm writing this project. It feels forced at times, but the end product seems to just naturally fit.
I feel you immensely. Struggling with answering the "what is wrong?" question is something hard to overcome aha.
I do hope you work out what you feel is missing from the book, and you're able to "feel" the story a little more.
Pants away, you wise pantser! Write that extra character! See what happens! This is the play time, the first draft, the journey of exploration. Put on your adventure boots and lean into your creative process! I think about stories like they're children...they all have different personalities and different needs. Maybe your character is feeling shy and isn't ready to show themselves to you fully yet. Maybe you have to ask them some questions, get them to warm up to you.
Or, on a more aggressive side note, I just read a Jack London quote yesterday that I thought was apropos:
"You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club."
It's a very Jack London, release-the-inner-wolf sort of way of looking at it. I certainly needed to hear it at this time in my writing. I feel you in your time of vague uncertainty...we're all in this soup together!
i've been stuck on a novella i started writing years ago but refused to let go of. i think at some point one of the acts never could leave my brain, so every time i come back to it i just come up empty. it's frustrating when the first time i started writing it felt euphoric but now it sort of stagnated. it's made worse when my more recent works are just written better, so it makes it increasingly difficult to go back to this one piece that i desperately want to finish.
EDIT: i've finally got back into it! the key for me was to get back into the mood i was in back when i started writing it and now it's much easier to keep writing even after how long it's been since my last edit.
You are not at all alone in this!! This video is making me feel so seen.
I started writing my first full novel in 2018 and finished the first draft within a year. I've been editing it ever since, my beta readers and critique partners loved it. But even after years of reworking it I have several big problems with it and I can't seem to figure it out. Every solution I've tried just creates more problems and plot holes. I can't let go of the project because it has so much potential and I care very deeply about the characters. It keeps me up at night, I can't stop thinking about it, but I've also been stuck for such a long time. Is it that I have outgrown the project or that it has in fact outgrown me? Has my own work become too complex for me to see it through?
I wrote a second novel while editing the first one which I LOVE, but I've started to run into very similar problems and I'm so frustrated. Reading over what I've written used to be so exciting, now it just makes me cringe. It has gotten to the point where it's crushing my self worth as a writer. I love writing so much and I really don't want to lose that part of myself.
Anyway, thank you for from the bottom of my heart for talking about this. Hugs! ❤
(con't from previous comment)
I too have a fear of doing terribly at the line level. My specialty is comedy, which makes things a lot tougher because one lame or awkwardly-timed joke can throw off the equilibrium of the entire work. This results in a desperation for co-writers: the sooner I get my writing process out of a self-contained vacuum, the better.
"This new draft will be easy" always happens after you've written something reeeeeally good. I remember drafting 10 plays in a row that were practically stage-worthy without the need to polish. Then I put another 10 on my schedule and only managed to write 8, and only 2 or 3 of those 8 ended up in a condition where I didn't cringe my balls off.
At the risk of stating the obvious: Experimenting (with a capital E) and letting yourself write crap is much easier when the stakes aren't as high. My wild guess is that with securing an agent so quickly, the rest of the process will be speeding up and once "Honey Vinegar" and "Holding a Ghost" see the light of day, you'll be expected by average readers to match that quality. Which is a ridiculous expectation. I'm not saying you should lower your goals on "Salt Birds" to the point where it's a lesser work; I'm just saying other people need to calm down.
And since you're lambasting the structure you came up with as "just events", my concluding suggestion is to wrap up whatever stray ideas you still need to write down, then take at least a month to focus on the stronger events. Instead of on the entire book. Think of it as survival of the fittest: once you have your strongest setpieces in place, what might happen is that the weak links will leave your book.
Hey Shaelin, just wanted to drop a comment to encourage you. I think persistence, exploration & giving yourself a chance (to make mistakes 😅) is a massive part of writing. Here’s my advice for all it’s worth: could you manifest a character weakness/struggle into a physical/external event, eg if a political opinion is driving a wedge between two characters, then one of them attends a political event against their will (maybe to support a friend), and this serves as a catalyst in deciding whether their current political views/sense of justice are as important to them as a personal relationship; or if a character is struggling over the decision of whether or not to have kids, then they’re asked to babysit for a weekend, or help at a youth camp, or meet an older couple who wished they had kids but do awesome community work. It can seem contrived at face value, but i think you could make it work using texture, and also it might help make things happen with the plot. My other suggestion kinda tags onto the end of this: what would happen if you took one character completely out of their comfort zone?
Anyhow, hope it works out for ya. I can totally relate, especially that quote you shared. Best of luck, keep at it I reckon - it might be the seed of a seed, the beginning of a beginning
PS. Salt Birds is suuuch a cool title, I’d be curious to find out what’s behind it, love the “aha” moment when you’re reading the book & realise what the title means!
The struggle from switching to editing to writing again is real. It's like you spent so much time being objective and overthinking that you can't just let things flow anymore. It's an unlearning every time.
When I get stuck I walk out of the cabin and let the sea move my hammock and I take a nap asking myself what would happen next or what would be new or different. When I wake it is either my sciff is under my bow, which happens, or the idea comes to me.
I hope my comment will help. I have had this unrequited love in real life. It still haunts me 20 years later. It’s so deep and changes a person. Consider giving it more time. Maybe your character is waiting to open up to you. Maybe your character feels invisible and maybe no one knows to the depth of their love and sacrifice. Thank you for being so vulnerable. This book which is bringing you insecurities is an emotion you can tap in to. Also, just to hear your heart speaking about the struggle is one many readers will relate to, in my opinion.
I write mostly music, but I've also written a novel and a short story collection and I have several other books in progress. In my something like 45 years of writing one of the best pieces of advice I got was 'write for the trashcan'. At first it seemed so counterintuitive, I think I really was/am a perfectionist. But I was in such a tough spot creatively that I decided to try it. Something weird happened right away, in that I initially went the opposite direction somehow and became even more critical of myself than I had been. But I eventually got loosened up and then something else amazing happened. I was actually pleasantly surprised by what I produced. And maybe the key was that because I loosened up I didn't stop. Best of luck.
You’re such an inspiration! Thank you so much for making this video 🥲
I enjoy your videos, but this one really hit. You have *such a grasp on the finer mechanics. I'm working on something now that's been dragging me along for years but I know one day it will click like a lock and all the lights will come on. Do you work in Word, Scrivener, or analog? I would watch a video of you unboxing a Freewrit platform and discussing the ways it affects your planning process versus your creativity. Keep up the great work!
First time I tried NaNoWriMo was when I was 15, I fully pantsed 8k before missing a day and giving up because it was terrible! Barely wrote for a long time, though in uni I did get a very disconnected fanfic up to 35k I was just writing that for fun.
I've been wanting to get one of my novel ideas down for so long and now that I've graduated and settled in I'm finally giving it a shot (using NaNo as a kickoff). I actually tried planning a lot more than usual and it's working out really well, already shot past my expectations. It's also helped that I've started reading a lot again this year, and I can't understate how motivating your videos are. They were a big part in getting me through final year, keeping on the back of my mind that I'll finally get time to write if I just finished the damn dissertation!
Thank you so much for all your videos, and whatever rears its ugly head in writing Salt Birds, I believe in you Shaelin!
I know that this is late and I am not a published author, so take that what I say with a pinch of salt, but what you are experiencing is the most common hurdle I face when first creating a story, whether it's characters, themes or plot. I like to describe it as the hook or you could say purpose, what is the purpose of the story existing and if you don't know want that purpose is or don't feel that hook then you are going to feel disconnected.
And you did kinda hit the nail on the head when you were explaining your fears of experimenting, do you remember time when you first started to write, regardless whether the story was good or bad, because it was good in the moment and that's all that mattered, that is creativity in it's purest form, when we grow older we start to lose that, feeling like racing against time and that there is no room for failure, we stop making room for creativity. And it's ok to be worried about this disconnection but I think you are doing fine, when this happens to me I usually take a break and work on another story, until eventually a hook or purpose presents itself, why not explore the things you have in your story, what you want in it, what works and doesn't, even if that means making a random story to help you get that answer, you want the story to work, and will with time sometimes that's all is needed.
Wow I really hope and believe that you will get through this. All the best!
Unrequited love is like the reader's love for a book. We love Jane Eyre and her tale is about what John Fowles called Deep England.
You have a strong idea. Everybody can relate. Sybil is overwhelmed by the love she can never have ? We all like weird relationships.
This one is with Rowan, isn't it ? (There is also Susanna, Cody, a Dad & stepsister)
This made me think of your comment a month ago: *Is that too much to ask ? I just want this book to consume my life.* Love, again.
The gulf between the young and old is not so much experience; it is that the old know about time - The Care of Time to quote an Eric Ambler title.
An Italian proverb runs : Love takes care of Time, Time takes care of Love. Be patient. Give Sybil Time to emerge. Your deep brain will figure it.
In the meantime, walk around Sybil as artists walk around the model in Life Class. Who are you Sybil ? Who were your great grandparents ?
Why great-grandparents ? Well, Walter Scott said there should be a shorter word for great-great-great grandparents.
The notion came to me in reading a handsomely designed new edition Vintage paperback of Camera Lucida by Roland Barthes.
Barthes is looking at photos of his late mother.
*With regard to many of these photographs, it was History which separated me from them. Is History not simply that time when we were not born ? I could read my non-existence in the clothes my mother had worn before I can remember her. There is a kind of stupefaction in seeing a familiar being dressed differently.* Unrequited love compels us to see our own non-existence, in the present.
This is the kind of comment I wish I could read every day! "Unrequited love compels us to see our own non-existence in the present" such an interesting (and almost tragic) idea, thank you for sharing!
@@Barjavelle131 A reformed Swiss theologian described romantic love as the last Christian heresy.
Jean Cauvin (John Calvin) said he stayed at home in Geneva one winter's day in the hope that he would see his little son smile before leaving this world: watching your child die is more terrible by far than nursing a broken heart or contemplating one's own nonexistence.
A woman I met only once and very briefly told me I should read Calvin's Bible Commentaries starting with the Gospel of John.
I was so surprised that I laughed. Calvin was mad, I had always thought. How wrong I was. A genius I only discovered late in life.
I feel your struggle. I had a similar problem with my first novel that I wrote last NaNo a few weeks ago. Something was missing and the story felt boring. Also I couldn't really connect with my main character. I talked about this problem with my close friend and together we worked out what needed to be changed. Have you considered giving those words you've written to a reader and ask what they think of it? Maybe they have a better view on what isn't working so you can fix it. Don't give up on that book yet! Maybe this book doesn't have chapters, maybe it's just paragraphs, maybe this book needs a new way on how the format is. You'll figure it out, I'm sure of it! :D
I jumped in to this NaNoWriMo with a story I thought of about two years ago. There is Losts still to find out. I'm a planter so what Im doing at the moment is writing the scenes as I see them which is a mess :P But slowly the story is taking shape and I cannot wait to get the scenes in order and see what material I have to work with after NaNoWriMo. At the moment I'm at 24K (Day 14). This book will need a lot of work but that's how first drafts are, right? And some are dirtier than others. This one is a pretty dirty one but I'll clean it up next year and I'm excited about doing so :D
Sending you love and creative vibes
Hope the book will work out! For relationship/character heavy books, I would suggest to maybe separate the characters from each other for some time and have them have their life without the other party for a while, see how they will act when "alone" and they could also think back at those subtle moments or the way they parted, before meeting each other again, which can also go very poorly or very well, depending on what emotion you wish to achieve. I'm doing editing at the moment for my story, and so far I'm happy with the progress, but I do know there will be issues in the middle to fix.... good luck :)
One of my motivations when I feel insecure is Stephen King's "Carrie". Sometimes all you need is another pair of eyes. You know you are a good writer. You've done it before. The only rule is the story must be interesting. Take a break, do other fun stuff, come back to it and ask yourself how you can make it more interesting. Happy writing!! 😊
Thank you for the video. It's very helpful, especially for someone who has a lot of insecurity surrounding my work. I have a lot of trouble letting the characters lead the story/listening to the character. Do you have any tips on that? Maybe make a video? :D Thanks for all the great content!
After your 'chapter hack' worked for me, I think that hack would get some pacing going at the very least. Get the autonomic functions going and the rest will kick.
The better I become as an editor, the more impossible my expectations and fear of the story's huge potential get. When this happens, I try to repeat Julia Cameron's words in my head: go under the wall, not climb over it (so I tell myself to make the first draft "purposefully" shitty, let go of my ego and just finish the draft unless the outline itself is horrible). I also love the comparisons to a sketch or a sculpture: the first pass is always just either some basic shapes in pencil or in clay, and each pass gives the shapes more detail and definition. I hope these thoughts help, I definitely relate to the struggle! So I'd say keep sketching, see what the shapes become.
The issue I have with the “make your first draft shitty” advice that I see many authors give is that the manuscript still has to be good shit if you will. Like the manuscript could be crap but it may be irredeemably crap. George R R Martin for example could write a crap manuscript but we know that if you read it, it would still be good and worth working on. Whereas a person with writing skills that are really in need of work could write a script but it could genuinely be bad.
Sometimes I wonder whether authors should be saying “start with a crappy manuscript but still ask yourself whether it’s worth your time and effort (or someone else’s) fixing it.”
@@ottz2506 I don't think I understand your '.. still has to be good shit' argument. Editing and rewriting are for making a text a good one. Now, what an individual person perceives as 'good' is subjective, and thus I believe Cameron is right in advising people to not try to climb over the wall but just go under it. Chasing 'good' is rather difficult without first forming a baseline for what the text looks like when it's 'bad', I think.
When it comes to the decision whether the text is 'worth' the dedicated editing and rewriting time, I think the answer lies in the writer's feeling about the premise of it: if a writer is really disappointed about the execution of the story, or the prose, NOT about what the story is supposed to be like, it's worth the effort in my opinion. If the idea itself feels a disappointment, then it's time to search for a better one.
@@keltavuokko You have to ask yourself whether the manuscript is still good enough to work with or whether it’s so bad that editing it would be a waste of your time or others. Yes, make your manuscript shitty but it still has to be good shit and not just really bad. Unless you think that a bad manuscript from George R R Martin would be the same as one from someone who has just started learning about creative writing especially if the aim is for it to be published. I’ve had rejections from people before who will say that what i’ve provided just isn’t worth putting their effort into as it relates to taking it on board and working with it. And that’s fine. You just learn and move on. There’s always next time.
People say that there are no rules when it comes to writing. Well there are rules and if you want to break them, you have to know them first.
If you’re writing the manuscript merely to identify your weak points and learn then that’s one thing but if you want your manuscript to eventually lead to publication, that’s a whole different ball game. You have to ask yourself not just whether it’s worth your time but also whether it’s worth an agent’s time too. Agents and publishers don’t just take on anything. They have to ask themselves whether it’s worth their time or else writers would be getting accepted left to right.
@@ottz2506 Yeah, but my point is to say that everyone determines the 'is it worth it?' answer themselves. Text can be rewritten as many times as one wants. It's just a matter of does the writer see enough potential in the idea to determine that it is worth the effort. However many drafts it takes to take shitty text to a complete manuscript. It's all about whether the writer likes the idea enough to work towards the vision. If the passion is not there for that particular story, then maybe it's best to let go and move on.
@@keltavuokko If you’re aiming for publication, asking yourself whether your manuscript is worth both yours and your potential agent’s time is important. If you have a really really crap manuscript, you might be wasting your time regardless of how many drafts you get through because clearly what you’ve produced from the start just wasn’t good. You’re better off learning and moving onto the next thing. Knowing when to give up (not on writing, but on the story idea) should be just as important as knowing when not to. Question whether that voice in your mind nagging at you is right and something you should listen to.
If you’re just learning how to improve your writing, then sure, allow it to be reaaaly crap, look back at how awful it is, learn and continue with your writing journey. Keep writing. Read more. Read good books. Read bad books. Read books about writing books. Listen to authors and seasoned agents who won’t just tell you what you want to hear and will be blunt. Avoid people who just throw out positive mantras.
I’d love to be a writer one day but I know I’m nowhere where I should be.
There are rules to writing. There actually is an objective standard for writing. Rules are meant to be broken but you should know what these rules are first in order to break them.
Over the last two years I have been writing a collection of short stories and at that time I was fearful of reading them out to anyone for lots of reasons. Watching your channel and others, attending a writing club, talking to published writers and reading authors autobiographies I finally kicked the thoughts, emotions and fears out of my head (those pesky things do try and come back but I don't let them in). I have started to read snippets to my friends, support worker and CEO, now I'm not someone who seeks praise but the positive and truthful (every time I ask them all to give me the most honest and brutal feedback) responses I have had so far helped a lot (now I understand when they say your cheeks burn with embaressment). May I suggest that you let those you trust read some of your book to see if it conjures up the emotions you are looking for, anothers feedback (good or bad) could help you. Thank you for all of your help and all of the best for your novel.
Good video. The sincerity really resonates. Your discussion of how pantsers write is spot on. We navigate by feeling, especially in books that are not plot driven.
I know this was a hard video to make. I can see how much you are struggling. I can relate. I am also a pantser. Like you my first two novels really clicked. The novel I am working on now is a character driven story where plot threads do not weave as tightly as I think they should. Each chapter alternates between the POV of the two main characters. I am debating on whether to keep a very heavy and dramatic story line. It is brutal to write, and, in the end, I have no idea how it ties into the evolving relationship between the two main characters. I have decided to write it and see if it leads to a pathway forward, which is not very clear. If it does not work, I will probably shelve the book and move on to something else and either return to this book later (maybe change from third person POV to first person POV) or cannibalize parts of it for another novel, which I did with another one of my swing and misses. Perfection cannot be the enemy of the good enough, but also sometimes you need to know when to fold 'em. Live to write another day.
You describing the issues about the characters feeling silo’s reminds me of What We Do in the Shadows
I feel like season one is a great example of synergy between the characters, and then the later episodes are more silo’d
Like you check in here and there with them versus explore their interconnections.
Not sure if this is helpful! Might be an interesting little bit of fun research haha
How often does it happen that when you write something and think it's bad, and give it to someone else to read, they think it's good?
How much the other way?
I've been writing and rewriting the same story trying to get to the heart of it for years now and only recently have i gotten the right feeling about it that i can write it out again.
love listening to your writerly rambles
I’ve loved your videos for a few years now. Can I share something my favorite MFA teacher taught me? She said: Don’t look so much into what does and doesn’t work. Instead, ask yourself this: “What does your [story, character, etc.] WANT to become?” I wonder if that might help you out with your current MC. Can’t wait to listen to the rest of this on my drive to work!
maybe something about it scares you. I don't know, I feel like I can relate to this a lot. Hope it works out, good luck w nano
Objective view is very useful. Helped me a lot. It’s like not taking it personally type of thing . I’d say keep writing and see what happens. What’s the alternative? With writing it is always going one step forward two steps back, rewriting, characters starting to have their own goals and voice, narrative overtaking, so wait till it starts coming to life. Trust the process. Oh and they do say you should never compare it to previous work. When you write something u let it go, nothing will be the same after. Comparison is not helpful or should be present in a new project although it is natural but it’s like comparing anything, yourself to others, one person to another, one event or vacation to another. Is there a point? No.
You are INCREDIBLY helpful to this newbie writer. Thank you!
Several years later in front of my typewriter I remember her, I remember her as beautiful as a flower in spring and I ask myself over and over again what happened to that little girl of my dreams who...
I'm writing an adventure-focused dungeon crawler crossover starring myself. I've been discovery writing with a very vague idea of the world, the mystery of how we got there and urgency of characters wanting to return to their world and 'myself' desiring the opposite is the driving force.
As of now, it's just a bunch of folks getting to know and trust each other, overcoming classic dungeon monsters, I'm losing the spark, have been losing it for months now. I enjoy writing interactions between the characters, but progression of plot is... Almost non-existent.
Don't start a new project with preconceived notions that since the other one was easy, this should be too. It stifles your writing. Projects are like characters. As you write, you learn more about them. No two works are the same even if it's written by the same person. Start each work with a clean slate. You'll discover things as you go. After all, that's what's fun about making things up! Don't take yourself too seriously 😊
"fear of writing bad words" is so real
like
no matter how many times i tell myself "first drafts are allowed to be shitty" lmao it's just like if it's not immediately coming together it's still so easy to panic so it's so hard to just roll with it and keep writing and see what happens and fix the problems later.
like even if they're really huge problems! i can still make those massive edits and revisions later once i have some stuff on paper and i know this but argh.
so anyways yeah
i relate to some of this video so hard 😅
it's also super understandable that you're struggling w salt birds, given comparing to your other books and esp given how excited you were to start it!! it has a lot to live up to.
and also... i suspect that your growth as a writer (which im sure you know sometimes happens out of our own sight) might be shown in how your standards for what you feel good about are maybe higher? idk but it sounds like it could be at play so figured i'd chuck it out there.
thanks for sharing as always. it's always incredible to get an insight into your mind at work and your writing process. you're an inspiration!
hope that making this video helped you move forward in whichever direction works for you 💖
go go salt birds! come alive!! we believe in you!!!
oh ps - your chapter tip ended up really helping me!
I love this comment so much!!! thank you for validating my struggles it's honestly giving me so much encouragement to keep trying
I love the name Salt Birds.
It sounds to me like your characters might actually have some threads of shared dramatic backstory that you as the author have not become consciously aware of yet. This would be the energy current which would be informing all the small, subtle interactions. But since you as author may not have discovered this missing piece(s) of backstory, it feels as though you are flying blind. It would make a satisfying ending to have all the mysterious and seemingly unrelated threads suddenly come together, joined by some previous event(s) that the reader is only now learning of. I don't know if this even fits, but I'm thinking if you start to get discouraged, chugging forward on pure faith alone, it might help to journal or write a letter as your main character and see what can be mined from their unacknowledged past.
I recently lost all my notes, outlines, chapters and worldbuilding from my pc breaking down! Really suck but now I will start over and perhaps be better? Hope so, very insecure that I wont be able to recreate it.
Personally I think you should add that plot point you are not so sure about. See where it leads you. Usually even if you don’t know why you want to write that particular part of the book your subconscious already knows. It just needs to simmer for a while in the pages until you find the connection that is already somewhere in there. And if it ends up just flopping then remove it afterwards.
Somewhere I read that coincidences are the product of good design. So if by “coincidence” you find a thread you can pull from to join that plot point to the rest of the novel it will be because from its conception it was meant to be that. Your mind was just a little bit ahead of you
I ended up adding it and very glad I did!!
Sometimes it helps for me to put a project down and work on something else for a bit, and then come back.
I think a good starting point to figuring out how to weave different plot threads is to ask : what are the similarities and differences between the threads/character relationship? Can beats of the threads be juxtaposed to contrast or mirror and expose either those commonalities or differences?
"Now that there's a building narrative that is stronger than the narrative in my book -- of me fighting with this book."
Whoa, that must feel weird.
I hope the daily immersion helps.
I'm a more plot-heavy writer, but my current book was stalling, at least emotionally for me, until I recently realized how the series antagonist, who as plotted had one appearance to interact with this book's villain, will instead have a few scenes throughout with other characters... and a twisty and horrific final scene that gives the book a real punch it otherwise lacked.
Tnx for the talk, my writing success is going to be similar as yours. I will stop starting into it and just write bad for some time.
For those things on which I do not have an answer I use time. Usually time tells me what to do next.
im curious about what you said about not knowing what a chapter looks for for that book. i hope you try to experiment with different ways to make a chapter. a lot of nonfiction work does this really well. when i have had issues with my own nonfiction work, a lot of the time it's a structure or pov thing. is my structure all wrong? how does this story need to be told? who is telling it, when are they telling it, and why? would love to hear about any writing updates you have.
I do the same. I’m at 119 k and have some dialogue issues and tags I need to correct. Instead of doing that now I’m in the 2nd story. I have three stories up in Scrivener and adjust them at the same time to keep momentum with the characters and flow. I always do things three at a time so I can tighten my stories. Maybe you could do this except instead of stories your three act story structure instead. See it all at this be time.
Love this episode!
I wonder if you need to take a step back and let the characters talk to each other in different stages of their relationship evolution and in different settings. Maybe once you’ve written a whole bunch of scenes like this you’ll be able to see the threads of what the scenes are for more clearly. It sounds like trying to write it linearly is holding you back. Good luck, however you proceed. ❤
Shaelin, I hope you figure out what to do with your book soon! I'm a Methodological Pantser / Intuitive Pantser myself, and Story Engineering is very helpful for me, especially now that I'm rewriting my screenplay again. Oh yeah, I wanted to ask if you listen to the UK band Placebo. The album cover art for their album "Sleeping with Ghosts" is what I think of when I hear you talk about your story Holding a Ghost.
I finished my book I've been writing for two years last month and set it forward. And I've been super excited to start writing a project I've been planning since 2020 for this year's nanowrimo. And after 3 days i wanted to give up.... It's really difficult to go from working on something that's at a place where you are really happy with it to a completely new project. Cus suddenly it feels like all your writing is shit and how did you even think you were a good writer.....
Yes ‘Character’ is important than ‘Plot’ but Plot is important too.
Something I do when I have trouble getting in a characters head is to do some free writing from that character's perspective. It probably won't be seen, but it can help a lot to understand that characters mindset.
Well, I finished the first draft of a 240k novel last month, which feels like a success, if that helps...? To give me a break from it before I revise (and probably/hopefully cut!) I'm NaNo-ing with a brand new project, which has only clocked up 2.2k so far, but I have this evening ahead of me for writing...
I dunno. IMHO 80 pages is nothing to have to throw out. Maybe your book hasn't started yet. Maybe you just have to keep writing until it starts for you. Maybe there are parts that are usable but you won't know until you get further into it. I know you are going to do fine because it's obvious you are very, very bright.
Me, I'm just doing 3 pages a day for Nano. 6.67 pages a day when I forgot all about Nano is too much when I haven't spent all of October preparing. So I'm just going to write until the end of Nov and take the recommended week off and then see what I have. Also I have bunch of books on the craft I have to read so I can do less intuitive writing and more calculated writing. So I won't do Nano according to the "rules," but it will still be a productive month. Nano is way too much for new writers and a great way to fail according to it's rules. Who needs failure? That's somebody else's rules, not my rules. It ought to be about set your own reasonable goal, and if you get it done, then you get the t-shirt.
Thanks for sharing!
Apologies in advance if I’ve commented this previously…
The coupling (as it coupling moment of physics’ mechanics of materials) relationship between Awareness & Focus applies here. One can get caught on the swirling vortex of focusing on the blade of the evergreen at the expense of missing the shading canopy of the forest. One can also become distracted by the majestic view of the forest [awareness] & miss the seed before taking root to germinate.
Something that helped me with my insecurities about writing was to read a published novel that people seem to enjoy a lot in general, that I see massive character development and worldbuilding problems in and so on. The idea is to tell myself that I know I could clearly write that story better, so if they can get published and people love it, then my novel could be too even with many flaws in the end.