So sort of a continuation of the T.Hawk video, but now lets go wide. When I talk about broken and cheap, talking about proper "bugs" like the Guile handcuff glitch from back in the day just isn't enough. The stuff here is what is considered normal gameplay for Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Dead off a single hit, weird input storage becoming regular character tactics, etc etc. SF2 isn't a quaint old man game, its much more vicious and savage than anything in modern fighting games!
SSF2T is a lot like MvC2 in the meta. A game where there is so much broken that it somehow all comes together and works in a beautifully ludicrous way.
Of course, many games were more lethal to getting hit back then. Where Punches, Kicks, and ESPECIALLY Fireballs did more damage. Plus games weren't trying to be balanced back then. Some characters were just a higher tier, flat out plain & simple, none of this BS today where characters are more balanced to make every character more competitive. The Challenge was using the strengths of those lower tier to find a way to consistently beat those higher tier characters if possible. But that's just my opinion. So to end, here's one of my favorite *"Dead off a Single Hit"* moments from another game. ruclips.net/video/HDeAAX-oiPE/видео.html
Really awsome video! But still... When they talk about SF2 being overrated they usually are referring to The Wolrd Warrior and Championship Edition, don't you think you should address those versions of SF2 as well? They may not have supers and many moves that were added later like E. Honda's command grab, but if SSF2T is like 2 hobos fighting with broken bottles outside the ring, then the original SF2 is 2 drunken hobos with infinite rocket launchers fighting in the alleyway next to the stadium.
Lots of street fighter lately on the channel I guess? I guess its just I feel Street Fighter 6 in the air. Before Capcom Cup got canceled I would have put money on the fact SF6 would have made its debut/announcement there. I know its still coming, maybe February isn't the date now but I still feel it. Looking forward to SF6 in a very big way. SFV has had such a massive turnaround under Nakayama and crew and its given me nothing but full and absolute confidence in whatever direction they wanna go in with SF6.
"If you wanna get pedantic technically the samsho rage meter is first" I didn't plan to be pedantic but since you pointed out then I feel the need to be: technically even before Samsho (1993), there was "Art of Fighting" (1992) which invented super moves, super meter and desperation moves, among other things like taunts (and in some measure ex moves).
Yep that's true Street Fighter 1 was among the very first were characters had several special moves like Ryu's iconic hadoken, Shoryuken and the Tatsu. Then like you said Art of Fighting expanded on that with very impressive looking "super desperation moves", Ryo and Robert Haoh-sho-kouken (the giant fireball) and their absolute destructive desperation move where they kicked and punched the living crap out of any poor soul on the other side of the screen, depleting the opponents health bar almost entirely.
I've gotten bitch slapped by most of these things (either in-person or on Fightcade), and this is still one of my favorite fighting games of all time. It's broken as heck, but the volatility of each and every scenario is what provides the fun for me.
This game is really interesting to me for several reasons, the way command throws and stuns work seems to make the game unplayable but people still love the game to this day.
@@megaham1552 ^this. It is the difficulty of doing much of these things, especially consistently, (even for pros) that keeps things in check. Most of the things people REALLY complain about are not as much about it being broken (since everything is lol) but just what can be done consistently.
Reminds me of MW2. That game was so fun because everything was broken. Infinite care packages, AC-130s, Akimbo Shotguns, One Man Army Pro, Tac Knives, Commando Pro, Sitrep Pro, Riot Shields, Blast Shields, UMP45, quick scoping, I can go on and on
@@kevinsemidey2516 Nothing is total bs when you have an arsenal of bs to return the favor. That's why imbalanced game is fun, unless it became an esport.
It's interesting how games from back then got by on how it was rare to see someone who knew all the matchups and broken stuff, since nobody could lab out and optimize characters without a ton of quarters. And if they did, only so many people would know about it since they couldn't put what they figured out on RUclips or Twitter.
You would be surprised how fast things traveled from arcade to arcade by word of mouth. I remember seeing people figure out combos while I was standing there watching. We had 2 local candy stores that were the epicenter of SF2 universe in my neighborhood. We had local tournaments that were surprisingly competitive considering the time.
Back in the day it was all about the exploits and weather you knew them or not. In my house we had a rule where you weren't aloud to repeat the same special move more than three times. Silly rule, nobody ever learned to counter said move that way. There was a TV. show on a children's channel here in the UK in the early nineties. This one Kid used M. Bison's Down + HK over and over again. He got lots and lots of wins with it. The presenter got so frustrated with him she tried to punish him. She didn't even suggest to the other players to hold Down/Back for a low block. Probably didn't know about it.
The part about Boxer's throw being "inescapable" is straight up wrong. Every character can just reversal out of it except Dictator who needs meter. In fact, you can do this against any non-techable grab in ST.
Moves that hit on frame 1 are unblockable 50% of the time. Old Ryu and Old Ken have air tatsus with this property. You can do ambiguous crossups with it, and even if they guess right they still get knocked down 50% of the time. Plus it's a vortex as you can do it again when they're waking up.
The reason the game is a masterpiece is because it was savage and brutal. The six buttons were ahead of its time. It made kids approach the game in a serious manner. If you don't learn and train how to play, then you will get destroyed in the arcade. Embarrassed. Walk away in shame after being hit with a move you don't know how to do. Legendary game.
I still remember the shit talking from the arcades those players were ruthless; I watched a friend get wrecked in Super Turbo the guy straight up told him. "Go home and play your Super Nintendo, you fuckin suck!"
Roofle: Dying of a basic jump in is not allowed in modern fighting games. I: *sweating and remembering all those kofxv clips* P.S.: Yes, all those were with five bars and blue max mode but nontheless it is still possible to die of a basic jump in.
I think new fighting games could be improved with the calculated inclusion of SF2 style dirt. Input storage and negative edge for specific specials or supers could make fighting games a lot more intense without having to add a lot of complicated mechanics or ages long combos only Desk can perform.
Another crazy example here is that some characters can do "stagger loops" to keep you pressured pretty much forever if you don't have a DP! M.Bison, with his stand/forward LK is the biggest example on that! A friend of mine has used that one me whenever we played SF2, lol! (Although I learned Zangeif could do it too with with stand LP.) As such I'm always reminded that if I ever had problems with Sol's 5S pressure loops in GGST, thank goodness it wasn't nearly as bad as what M.Bison and others could do here, especially since the FD buff, lol!
Damn my uncle told me the cheapest way he would win in street fighter 2 a long time ago was guile turtling he didn't tell me anything about this stuff.
Also, a lot of this information was not easy to come by. There was no wiki or dustloops, or even forums really. If you didn't live near a place with an active FGC you were basically an island. So you would figure out a trick and just *abuse* your friends with it. Did your friend rent SF2 from Blockbuster, have no manual but figured out Sagat's Tiger projectile? Guess who is losing for 20 minutes to the sound of "TIGER!" over and over? The first guy to guess the DP input (or discover a command list) is a GOD. It wasn't just that the game was brutal and savage, it took a LOT of dedication and time to figure stuff out if you had a community, but if it was you and your two buddies it was like cavemen playing.
@@alexojideagu But you had to be able to get those magazines. If you were a kid who's parents didnt buy you the magazine, or lived in some little small town that didn't get it then you were out of luck. Also, just as most people who play a video game don't look up guides on the internet, a lot of people didn't buy game magazines. When I was a kid my parents didn't get the magazines in general, I had to work to get them to buy me one. But even after my mom married my stepfather, the only reason we had game periodicals was because he subscribed to them. It just wasn't something I would have done.
That's how a lot of players back in then lot of trial and error (with many quarters spent) if you were lucky some players would show you how to do some of the special moves. But yes it totally did suck if you rented SF2 or MK and the manual was gone which happened way more times than I'd like to remember.
@@TheJackOfFools John well yeh I was in London and got magazines every week so saw of a lot on moves etc. I also had the SNES at home to learn. Most of the players shared the same charge or hadouken motions. So once you knew one character you could learn them all.
@10:34 When @rooflemonger said "SFII was two hobos outside the area with the boxing gym, fighting with broken bottles", that was the sharpest and most accurate hot take i've ever heard. I 100% agree. 🤣🤣🤣
another note about hondas oicho throw, the entire time you're storing the input by holding down back, thats down back, you're also storing charge for headbutt and flash kick
It's tough to balance the old school dirty stuff with modern balancing for competition. Early SF5 was so insanely dry, still is to an extent but they finally started to add fun things in the game. ST I think is just on another level of broken. Yes, 3S, CVS2 are not balanced and have things that are not "fair" but nothing on the level of ST.
When Honda has the ochio throw "stored" he is also charging for headbutt and smash. If you don't have a fireball, Honda holding down-back is one of the scariest things in the game. Honda's super works the same way as Chun's, but is extremely bad and doesn't pose a threat the same way.
Super has the strangest look. Whenever any of the original characters perform a move added just for Super, they briefly turn into a totally different art style before returning to their old World Warrior selves.
I remember hearing the phrase 7-11 Balrog cause it was some cheap shit that would cause you to get your ass beat if you used his throw loops at the local convenience store arcade.
Nah, look at all the versions of Street Fighter 2 released. All those various arcade re-releases would be considered "patched" versions of the same game with minor tweaks to gameplay balance.
Here’s the thing though….if that’s what you grew up with, then it’s fine. But if you grew up in a world with weekly balance patches and nerfs, then your instinct is to complain. In my day Honda sat on you and you liked it!
Every fireball move in the game has recovery time based on the last normal to come out. So Ryu can cancel LP into HP fireball and have it recover faster.
I'll list some other problems - Jumpins having INSANE ranges, Sagat j.roundhouse comes to mind where he can literally make antiairs whiff if he doesn't press anything. Many supers and some DPs (at certain ranges) being completely safe . Imagine being able to wake up with something and do 60% damage, or even just randomly, have it hit and be safe afterwards. Sagat's light uppercut pushes back like crazy, often making it hard to punish. Unblockable moves like O.Ryu's air tatsu 50% of the time. Insanely ambiguous crossups that will stun if it hits. Oh and completely random damage and stun.
It's funny because most of the FG classics were horribly broken and extremely unbalanced, but anybody old enough to have played them still thinks they were hella more fun than the games out now.
I would loooove some vega/claw ninja/balrog themed vids or analysis / showcases from you!! Love that dude! First character I ever played back in the day in sf4!
2 hobos fighting outside the arena with broken bottles. Exactly! Back in the day our fun was discover those dirty tricks, and use them in real matches. Add this the fact that SF2 cabinets, the better ones were inside bars, or gas stations, at least in Brasil. Boy, landing 2 Guile ToD combos could grant you a beating. Trust me, I know.
I always preferred SSF2:TNC as the more complete, balanced game. Turbo is really chaotic and favors highly-skilled players to a point of hilarity. But any SF2 player can play The New Challengers.
Who the hell thinks SF2 is simple and quaint? Man SF2 is hard as balls. I freaking started fighting games with New Challengers and I still get stomped in Super Turbo. Pushback is crazy, fireballs are a nightmare to get around, throw loops are insane. You make one mistake and you're done in some crazy lock. Not having 8 billion options and mobility tools makes the game much less forgiving, not simple and easy. People are insane if they think otherwise.
Trash the CPU with him, most won't criticize you for that. 😁 His selection code is tough, though. For some PvP SF2 Akuma, if you are on Fightcade, you could also look into the New Legacy hack. He is selectable normally there, albeit rebalanced to not be so overpowering.
ST Akuma air fireballs come in at such an extreme angle with close to zero risk. They alone invalidate a large majority of the cast, not to mention unblockable demon setups and being a broken version of a shoto
He HAD to be banned; he is considered by many to be the most broken fighting game character of all time. I fully support the New Legacy rework though... Akuma is available and balanced well.
I mean I was raised on the original Street Fighter II and Mortal Kombat games. Yeah people used to complain about "cheapness," usually to make excuses for why they lost a match. I mean you won sometimes, and you lost sometimes. That's just the way it was, but at the end of the day, you did whatever you had to do to try to win. Everybody has won matches with throws at least once. I used to be able to get creative with Chun Li's air throw, I even knew how to throw opponents out of Shoryukens and Vega's fence/wall dives. Ahhh but that's decades past lol. I do miss the arcade scene.
One more thing about tthe oicho cheese: if you are in a blockstring and you have a "stored oicho" you can mash the crap out of the punch buttons. If there is any gap in the blockstring at all and the opponent is in Honda's throw range, the oicho will come out and interrupt the blockstring. This will also happen if the blockstring, or any move at all really, ends with the opponent minus and in Hondas throw range. This is one of the main reasons that Honda is *extremely* difficult to attack without fireballs.
The fact that e.honda can store his super just like chun AND has that oicho throw bullshit BUT is not a top or high tier char always makes me laugh. And to top it off: there are people like me, that still prefer old honda for walking hands and better footsies XD ST is like a bob ross picture, those happy little accidents make it special.
I would not mind seeing Hold Grabs, Guard Breaks, Chip damage, and Chip kills off Supers and Special moves, and the old sf2 input grab style all over again in SF6.
as long as the grabs are techable maybe. But yeah i agree with you on special move chip kill or honestly even from normals. I do not like that I need to super to chip kill in sfv
@@raiden3079 The grabs will be tech-able if they make it the same properties and range as Capcom v.s. SNK 2 normal grabs. Because in there, the range on normal grabs was extremely short.
@@HeirofDacia I mean, yeah Alpha 3, but Alpha 2 is extremely tame. Vaille CC doesn’t really break the game (you have to be ultra close to the opponent so you can bait it).
Super turbo is extremely anime for what it is and honestly you could write an article on that stupid DJ jump medium kick alone. That thing has some insane properties.
Sure if you are a noob you will have problems,sfv created for people like you with,comeback mechanics ,4.4 frames of input lag plus 4frame input buffer to give you the opportunity to get reversals on time.You can choose ryu and mash the button to replicate the evo momment 37 also
SF2 player here. (my YT name is different from my FGC tag -- check my profile) But this dirty crap is what we love about the game. More of this stuff *should* be allowed in newer games... On a sidenote.... I also play that "unadulterated waifu cockfighting" game too... I mean, some of these things -- eg stored inputs, I think if tweaked, can be acceptable even in modern game standards of broken. That is actually a very specific example that i always say should be explored more in games. but yeah, the jump in TODs? they're fine. marvel 2 and 3 had 0 meter infinites, and ST is a game where anti airs are AMAZING. if you play that game, basically, if you don't know your anti air, you deserve to lose.... what about beginners learning the game? well, Those TODs while simple, are actually quite hard to execute, they actually don't come up too much at levels where people don't know their anti airs... heck i know some REALLY good deejay players that win tournaments or come close, and can't execute that TOD 100%, and definitely know some dictators who when rusty can't do that TOD. and you know what? they still win tournaments without it. The answer to a lot of SF2 questions when people ask "what do i do" about a certain situation... the short answer is... don't get into that situation... and how to do that? well, that's what keeps us playing because you can write a novel and still not fully answer the question.
When people say SF2 is "all about footsies and honest fundamentals" obviously have never played it for real. If you hate "come back mechanics" in modern fighting games, playing SF2 will give you some perspective because in SF2 the come back mechanic IS SF2 itself. Also don't believe anything David Sirlin has to say about the matter.
Old men just don't want to admit that their supreme gentlemen, chess only fundamentals and footsies is just a broken mess at high levels. Fun, nostalgic, but is just way too busted. I've played ST since the Kaillera, GGPO days, and the mentality then was that this game was like a chess game and MVC2 and 3S were completely random. It's good people have come to the realization with the advent of patching and modern balancing that ST should not be taken seriously at a high level.
Idk, I didn’t think HD Remix was bad as an attempt to balance the game at all. It wasn’t perfect but it was certainly better. I know people dislike Sirlin as a person, but I think as a game designer/player he’s actually extremely competent.
Sometimes I can't believe we actually put up and learned fighters in the 90s,it was brutal. Back then there were less distractions which allowed you to focus more and crying about it was frowned upon. People have it easy now with balanced games.
You didn't even point two of the greatest strenght of Claw haha! Low profile "crouch jab" : if a cross up his to high in the air, you can make whiff and then throw on landing. Scarlet Terror bug charge : if you built the downback charge, then, until you always keep the back charge, you can still finish the Scarlet input latter. So basically, having Claw blocking your jumping attack, it doesn't mean he hasn't a Scarlet stored. People got to know that this video is just the top of the iceberg that ST is. Forbidden Reversal Super for some characters (Ken, Sagat, Dhalsim) huge throw range differences between character (Dhalsim is basically a grappler) Ken cross over funky kicks Ryu delayed Super animation Ryu Super vs Shoto doing hadouken not comboing because of hit character hitbox animation variations Fei Long air thow being activable only at the upper top of the jump while Guile can make it almost on the ground ChunLi upkicks kinda guard OS bug Honda charge Super just like ChunLi stored Super Old Fei overhead kick not being an overhead (fixed in New Fei) All these cross over hitbox that can hit althougt the character is on your back, like Fei Long LK and MK / Dictator sliding roundhouse / Dhaslim slidings / Cammy MK Super buffer being so long and janky that player Boxer or Claw, you can charge, do a jump and then release Super Zangief one hit dizzy (fixed in US version) SPDs can be performed just throwing the joystick and pressing punch Some moves are +11 on block, like Blanka close MP Blanka super auto correct its final aiming direction, although it has been launched in the opposite of the landing point of the opponent Blanka / Claw can build Super Meter just by pressing their back dash / back flips Old Ken DP is invicible all the fucking way up and has something like two frames recovery when landing Claw and Sim have so low stun bar that sometimes, just a simple two hit combo can dizzy them Claw is so thin that most of character have to adapt / shorten their combo or the combo ender won't hit DeeJay hit animation can make some combo not work on him because of hitbox variations Crouching Sagat hitbox is very long on the ground permitting combo only possible on him in this situation Combo damage reduce applies only happen if the combo starts on the very end of the bar. A simple 3 hit combo can do 50% of life bar if you start it high on the life bar but if you start it on the last 20% maybe it won't kill. Time runs Super quick Stage speed difference? Players have to adapt from a match to another because of speed change ! E Honda and Zangief stages are so differents! Some juggle combos can be done only if you make the guy in the air break a stage box Some juggle combos can be done only if the juggled opponent hit the corner mid air after the first hit ChunLi Neckbreaker can be played like the Barcelona Loop if you master that ground bounce animation, you can hit as a cross up I am not even sure I listed here 30% of what can be considered broken ? Janky ? Unbalanced ? All in all, ST is the "git gud" game. In many situations described in this video, there are ways to get out, but it requires a lot of training, cold blood and good read. The game is still played by thousands of players in the world. They will play until the very end and will still have fun forever. Competitively speaking I would say there is something like : 300 players in NA 300 players in EU 200 players in SA ? I don't really know 500 in Japanese gamecenters ? I don't really know You can notice plenty of players from Africa on Fightcade There used to be some tournaments in Australia too... Great video anyway, always fun to see people starring at ST bugs ^^ Thanks!
The original SF2 The World Warrior was the most busted of them all. Some match-ups were just about impossible. Zangief SPD loop is impossible to break out of. Ryu, Ken, and Guile had infinite stun loops just with short or jab. Guile had the "magic throw" bug. What a complete mess of a game, but still crazy fun. I grew up with SF2 in high school and I wouldn't trade those experiences for the world.
Whenever people talk about older fighting games and how unbalanced they were i always remember how king in tekken 2 i think or tekken 1 would put you at minus 90 after you BLOCKED his df 1 so the strategy was to just get hit by it until you got pushed back
Super Turbo is a broken piece of shit game with stupid busted moves and gimmicks. And fucking love it for that. This coming from a dude who plays Guile and would in the past play against an online buddy who uses O.Sagat lma000
My friend actually said to me whenever I beat him with a throw, that's illegal in tournaments that's being cheap since I use to spam throws back in the day to beat him.
haha outside of spamming with brocken and doing silly stuff with rasputin I don't know much world heroes. I just mashed and had fun with it I don't know the details on that one
My personal Fav moment in this game... Was waaay back in the Day I was stomping out a Slim With a pixel of health left... Slim got the Yoga hold And I watched my Lifebar vanish Till F. Long Died. The hold did more then half life. Soooo Sheep
Well alpha and sf3 were made to make more money. Not out of any balance concerns. Turns out on SF3 though instead of making more money they almost killed the franchise
Yo not to be that guy Rooflemonger but supers actually come from Art of Fighting before they were in super turbo. Just making sure SNK gets the cred it deserves
Oh yea, as someone who's been playing Super Turbo literally since 1994 i can say without a doubt it's broken and busted, lol. I still love it tho, it's one of my favorite fighting games of all time. It's just really fun man, it's "pure". No comeback mechanics, no super long crazy combos, it doesn't have 20 meters to manage and mechanics to remember, it's "basic" but still incredibly fun. ST is from a time far before "balance" was something seriously taken into consideration.
well, future variants of the game were essentially balance patches. Base street fighter 2 and then future versions did add more mechanics and character abilities to make things more balanced, but it was rather minimal changes overall
You can die in literally one hit, and supers are often safe and do a ton of damage. The game doesn't need a "mechanic" to comeback it's built into its engine.
So sort of a continuation of the T.Hawk video, but now lets go wide. When I talk about broken and cheap, talking about proper "bugs" like the Guile handcuff glitch from back in the day just isn't enough. The stuff here is what is considered normal gameplay for Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Dead off a single hit, weird input storage becoming regular character tactics, etc etc. SF2 isn't a quaint old man game, its much more vicious and savage than anything in modern fighting games!
Ultra Street Fighter II: The Final Challengers on the Nintendon’t Switch is the best version of SFII in my opinion.
you may not know me but I think that video thumbnail is funny hell
SSF2T is a lot like MvC2 in the meta. A game where there is so much broken that it somehow all comes together and works in a beautifully ludicrous way.
Of course, many games were more lethal to getting hit back then. Where Punches, Kicks, and ESPECIALLY Fireballs did more damage. Plus games weren't trying to be balanced back then. Some characters were just a higher tier, flat out plain & simple, none of this BS today where characters are more balanced to make every character more competitive.
The Challenge was using the strengths of those lower tier to find a way to consistently beat those higher tier characters if possible. But that's just my opinion. So to end, here's one of my favorite *"Dead off a Single Hit"* moments from another game.
ruclips.net/video/HDeAAX-oiPE/видео.html
Really awsome video! But still... When they talk about SF2 being overrated they usually are referring to The Wolrd Warrior and Championship Edition, don't you think you should address those versions of SF2 as well? They may not have supers and many moves that were added later like E. Honda's command grab, but if SSF2T is like 2 hobos fighting with broken bottles outside the ring, then the original SF2 is 2 drunken hobos with infinite rocket launchers fighting in the alleyway next to the stadium.
So what you’re saying was that this gane wasn’t two gentleman in the ring fighting but indeed... a Street Fight
Also Ryu kind of seems like a hobo!
Ngl I feel like Street Fighter and KOF's names would fit the other more.
You could also say that the winner of the fight was an... alpha male.
@@ryanm.8720 or maybe a Zero, did you see what they did to the man’s pots in Thailand!
"It was 2 hobos fighting outside the arena with broken bottles" that made my day lol.
I can't stop laughing at that 🤣🤣🤣
You can say they ware... Street fighting
@@Nitosa You could also say that the winner of the fight was an... alpha male.
@@ryanm.8720 The one on meth; was Turbo
god tier comment and replies 🤣
Lots of street fighter lately on the channel I guess? I guess its just I feel Street Fighter 6 in the air. Before Capcom Cup got canceled I would have put money on the fact SF6 would have made its debut/announcement there. I know its still coming, maybe February isn't the date now but I still feel it. Looking forward to SF6 in a very big way. SFV has had such a massive turnaround under Nakayama and crew and its given me nothing but full and absolute confidence in whatever direction they wanna go in with SF6.
Facts!
Street Fighter 2 and it's many sequels were almost a savage wasteland
"If you wanna get pedantic technically the samsho rage meter is first"
I didn't plan to be pedantic but since you pointed out then I feel the need to be: technically even before Samsho (1993), there was "Art of Fighting" (1992) which invented super moves, super meter and desperation moves, among other things like taunts (and in some measure ex moves).
I was about to say, that's one thing they'll never be able to take away from SNK!
Yep that's true Street Fighter 1 was among the very first were characters had several special moves like Ryu's iconic hadoken, Shoryuken and the Tatsu.
Then like you said Art of Fighting expanded on that with very impressive looking "super desperation moves", Ryo and Robert Haoh-sho-kouken (the giant fireball) and their absolute destructive desperation move where they kicked and punched the living crap out of any poor soul on the other side of the screen, depleting the opponents health bar almost entirely.
@@franciscor390 Palace Software's Death Sword (Barbarian) was the first fighting game to implement parry.
have you the time to talk about our lord and savior heavy nova?
I've gotten bitch slapped by most of these things (either in-person or on Fightcade), and this is still one of my favorite fighting games of all time. It's broken as heck, but the volatility of each and every scenario is what provides the fun for me.
Going to say it again super turbo is extremely anime and will build your execution enough to pull off just frames in Tekken
Fightcade is nothing but a cheaters Paradise, because the idiots that made it let people do stuff that wouldn't be possible on the real thing.
This game is really interesting to me for several reasons, the way command throws and stuns work seems to make the game unplayable but people still love the game to this day.
Its pretty hard to pull off a lot of the combos in the game
@@megaham1552 ^this. It is the difficulty of doing much of these things, especially consistently, (even for pros) that keeps things in check. Most of the things people REALLY complain about are not as much about it being broken (since everything is lol) but just what can be done consistently.
Gotta love a game where everyone is almost broken, some are just more broken than others
Reminds me of MW2. That game was so fun because everything was broken. Infinite care packages, AC-130s, Akimbo Shotguns, One Man Army Pro, Tac Knives, Commando Pro, Sitrep Pro, Riot Shields, Blast Shields, UMP45, quick scoping, I can go on and on
@@kevinsemidey2516 Nothing is total bs when you have an arsenal of bs to return the favor. That's why imbalanced game is fun, unless it became an esport.
Then you got jojo HFTF and the hol horse touch of deaths
Literally every character has TODs if you're crafty, Hol Horse just does it easier than most. I'm both sad and happy he's just a mid tier
It's interesting how games from back then got by on how it was rare to see someone who knew all the matchups and broken stuff, since nobody could lab out and optimize characters without a ton of quarters. And if they did, only so many people would know about it since they couldn't put what they figured out on RUclips or Twitter.
No they got by on tight controls and smooth gameplay.
What you said applies to every game in its first few months.
You would be surprised how fast things traveled from arcade to arcade by word of mouth. I remember seeing people figure out combos while I was standing there watching. We had 2 local candy stores that were the epicenter of SF2 universe in my neighborhood. We had local tournaments that were surprisingly competitive considering the time.
I love that the 2 guys with tod combos aren't top tier even with them. Landing a clean jump in is pretty hard to do.
Very true... and even doing certain combos can be difficult to do consistently. The execution is what keeps a lot of things in check.
My favorite fighting game ever. Everyone has something broken. Love it. Shout out to hyper fighting.
Back in the day it was all about the exploits and weather you knew them or not. In my house we had a rule where you weren't aloud to repeat the same special move more than three times. Silly rule, nobody ever learned to counter said move that way.
There was a TV. show on a children's channel here in the UK in the early nineties. This one Kid used M. Bison's Down + HK over and over again. He got lots and lots of wins with it. The presenter got so frustrated with him she tried to punish him. She didn't even suggest to the other players to hold Down/Back for a low block. Probably didn't know about it.
is that the slide? I used that and almost instant wins if you cannot low block
The part about Boxer's throw being "inescapable" is straight up wrong.
Every character can just reversal out of it except Dictator who needs meter.
In fact, you can do this against any non-techable grab in ST.
That’s the thing about fighting games, you have to find you’re favorite flavor of BS.
Moves that hit on frame 1 are unblockable 50% of the time. Old Ryu and Old Ken have air tatsus with this property. You can do ambiguous crossups with it, and even if they guess right they still get knocked down 50% of the time. Plus it's a vortex as you can do it again when they're waking up.
The reason the game is a masterpiece is because it was savage and brutal. The six buttons were ahead of its time. It made kids approach the game in a serious manner. If you don't learn and train how to play, then you will get destroyed in the arcade. Embarrassed. Walk away in shame after being hit with a move you don't know how to do. Legendary game.
I still remember the shit talking from the arcades those players were ruthless; I watched a friend get wrecked in Super Turbo the guy straight up told him. "Go home and play your Super Nintendo, you fuckin suck!"
Roofle: Dying of a basic jump in is not allowed in modern fighting games.
I: *sweating and remembering all those kofxv clips*
P.S.: Yes, all those were with five bars and blue max mode but nontheless it is still possible to die of a basic jump in.
DBFZ and Marvel also = die from one jump in too. SamSho as well in the right situation.
Round 1
FIGHT!
Chun-Li: Spinning Knife Kick!
Ryu: Uggghh~~!!!
YOU WIN!
PERFECT!
Chun-Li: Hahahahaha! YATTA!
Street Fighter 2 is the equivalent of Irish pub fights
I think new fighting games could be improved with the calculated inclusion of SF2 style dirt. Input storage and negative edge for specific specials or supers could make fighting games a lot more intense without having to add a lot of complicated mechanics or ages long combos only Desk can perform.
It would definitely need to be calculated cuz negative edge and the weird charge seem hella volatile as mechanics
I love old street fighter game content it’s amazing
Another crazy example here is that some characters can do "stagger loops" to keep you pressured pretty much forever if you don't have a DP! M.Bison, with his stand/forward LK is the biggest example on that! A friend of mine has used that one me whenever we played SF2, lol! (Although I learned Zangeif could do it too with with stand LP.) As such I'm always reminded that if I ever had problems with Sol's 5S pressure loops in GGST, thank goodness it wasn't nearly as bad as what M.Bison and others could do here, especially since the FD buff, lol!
Damn my uncle told me the cheapest way he would win in street fighter 2 a long time ago was guile turtling he didn't tell me anything about this stuff.
and we wouldn't have it any other way
I remember the Guile handcuffs and we would be at the 7-11 trying to do it. AH, the early 90's...
Also, a lot of this information was not easy to come by. There was no wiki or dustloops, or even forums really. If you didn't live near a place with an active FGC you were basically an island. So you would figure out a trick and just *abuse* your friends with it. Did your friend rent SF2 from Blockbuster, have no manual but figured out Sagat's Tiger projectile? Guess who is losing for 20 minutes to the sound of "TIGER!" over and over? The first guy to guess the DP input (or discover a command list) is a GOD. It wasn't just that the game was brutal and savage, it took a LOT of dedication and time to figure stuff out if you had a community, but if it was you and your two buddies it was like cavemen playing.
There were game magazines and guides that showed you back in the day within months of SF2 and MK being released.
@@alexojideagu But you had to be able to get those magazines. If you were a kid who's parents didnt buy you the magazine, or lived in some little small town that didn't get it then you were out of luck. Also, just as most people who play a video game don't look up guides on the internet, a lot of people didn't buy game magazines. When I was a kid my parents didn't get the magazines in general, I had to work to get them to buy me one. But even after my mom married my stepfather, the only reason we had game periodicals was because he subscribed to them. It just wasn't something I would have done.
That's how a lot of players back in then lot of trial and error (with many quarters spent) if you were lucky some players would show you how to do some of the special moves. But yes it totally did suck if you rented SF2 or MK and the manual was gone which happened way more times than I'd like to remember.
@@TheJackOfFools John well yeh I was in London and got magazines every week so saw of a lot on moves etc. I also had the SNES at home to learn. Most of the players shared the same charge or hadouken motions. So once you knew one character you could learn them all.
@10:34 When @rooflemonger said "SFII was two hobos outside the area with the boxing gym, fighting with broken bottles", that was the sharpest and most accurate hot take i've ever heard. I 100% agree. 🤣🤣🤣
I like how they put all four members of Shadaloo in the corners of the window border.
9:54 can we get a part 2
This is my fav game of all time.
another note about hondas oicho throw, the entire time you're storing the input by holding down back, thats down back, you're also storing charge for headbutt and flash kick
The more I think about it, there really hasn't been an 'honest fighting game'. Or at least not one where the gameplay doesn't feel dry.
Only way to have an "honest" fighting game experience is through mirror matches.
Everything else has imbalance built into it.
KOF 98 is the most balanced. People play that in random characters sometimes because all characters can win against each other
@@philip1718 kof 98 is super broken too. Like, crazily so.
It's tough to balance the old school dirty stuff with modern balancing for competition. Early SF5 was so insanely dry, still is to an extent but they finally started to add fun things in the game. ST I think is just on another level of broken. Yes, 3S, CVS2 are not balanced and have things that are not "fair" but nothing on the level of ST.
Karate Champ
When Honda has the ochio throw "stored" he is also charging for headbutt and smash. If you don't have a fireball, Honda holding down-back is one of the scariest things in the game.
Honda's super works the same way as Chun's, but is extremely bad and doesn't pose a threat the same way.
Super has the strangest look. Whenever any of the original characters perform a move added just for Super, they briefly turn into a totally different art style before returning to their old World Warrior selves.
balrog repeatedly bashing his face on cammy's bust is too funny for me🤣🤣
I remember hearing the phrase 7-11 Balrog cause it was some cheap shit that would cause you to get your ass beat if you used his throw loops at the local convenience store arcade.
I love these videos where you teach us about old fighting games
Sf2 was like how the ufc was back in the day of no holds bard anything goes.
The good old days, No nerfs, No buffs, just SAVAGELY trying to beat your opponent! 🥋
Nah, look at all the versions of Street Fighter 2 released. All those various arcade re-releases would be considered "patched" versions of the same game with minor tweaks to gameplay balance.
This makes me want to play again so much more. Love seeing the ancient tech
Yup. Back when Psycho Crusher was truly broken. Hold input, attack, hold input while the previous Psycho Crusher is going, then repeat.
Oh well still love SF2, broken or not.. Nobody can't change my opinion on that
Here’s the thing though….if that’s what you grew up with, then it’s fine. But if you grew up in a world with weekly balance patches and nerfs, then your instinct is to complain. In my day Honda sat on you and you liked it!
Every fireball move in the game has recovery time based on the last normal to come out. So Ryu can cancel LP into HP fireball and have it recover faster.
ToD combos in modern fighting games are just ToD combos in older games with extra steps.
I'll list some other problems - Jumpins having INSANE ranges, Sagat j.roundhouse comes to mind where he can literally make antiairs whiff if he doesn't press anything. Many supers and some DPs (at certain ranges) being completely safe . Imagine being able to wake up with something and do 60% damage, or even just randomly, have it hit and be safe afterwards. Sagat's light uppercut pushes back like crazy, often making it hard to punish. Unblockable moves like O.Ryu's air tatsu 50% of the time. Insanely ambiguous crossups that will stun if it hits. Oh and completely random damage and stun.
It's funny because most of the FG classics were horribly broken and extremely unbalanced, but anybody old enough to have played them still thinks they were hella more fun than the games out now.
I would loooove some vega/claw ninja/balrog themed vids or analysis / showcases from you!!
Love that dude! First character I ever played back in the day in sf4!
SSFII can be broken af but still it is so fun to play that is the main reason why players still play it... Broken fun balance is so important.
"CAN WE JUST GO BACK TO 1999 WHEN I CAN LITERALLY JUST *doof doof doof* AND DO CRAAAAZY FUCKIN COMBOS WITH MY FOREHEAD?!"
Now that you know how busted SSF2T was just imagine how broken his closest clone, Breakers Revenge, can be.
2 hobos fighting outside the arena with broken bottles. Exactly! Back in the day our fun was discover those dirty tricks, and use them in real matches. Add this the fact that SF2 cabinets, the better ones were inside bars, or gas stations, at least in Brasil. Boy, landing 2 Guile ToD combos could grant you a beating. Trust me, I know.
I always preferred SSF2:TNC as the more complete, balanced game. Turbo is really chaotic and favors highly-skilled players to a point of hilarity. But any SF2 player can play The New Challengers.
Who the hell thinks SF2 is simple and quaint? Man SF2 is hard as balls. I freaking started fighting games with New Challengers and I still get stomped in Super Turbo. Pushback is crazy, fireballs are a nightmare to get around, throw loops are insane. You make one mistake and you're done in some crazy lock.
Not having 8 billion options and mobility tools makes the game much less forgiving, not simple and easy. People are insane if they think otherwise.
Kinda sad that akuma is apparently banned. He's my favorite character in 3rd strike, and I can only imagine how he plays in something this brutal
Trash the CPU with him, most won't criticize you for that. 😁 His selection code is tough, though.
For some PvP SF2 Akuma, if you are on Fightcade, you could also look into the New Legacy hack. He is selectable normally there, albeit rebalanced to not be so overpowering.
ST Akuma air fireballs come in at such an extreme angle with close to zero risk. They alone invalidate a large majority of the cast, not to mention unblockable demon setups and being a broken version of a shoto
He HAD to be banned; he is considered by many to be the most broken fighting game character of all time. I fully support the New Legacy rework though... Akuma is available and balanced well.
@@meathir4921there’s no raging demons in ST
@@theycallmejpj I might be crossing wires with the HD Remix version then. Oops. The rest of what I said still applies.
I mean I was raised on the original Street Fighter II and Mortal Kombat games. Yeah people used to complain about "cheapness," usually to make excuses for why they lost a match. I mean you won sometimes, and you lost sometimes. That's just the way it was, but at the end of the day, you did whatever you had to do to try to win. Everybody has won matches with throws at least once. I used to be able to get creative with Chun Li's air throw, I even knew how to throw opponents out of Shoryukens and Vega's fence/wall dives. Ahhh but that's decades past lol. I do miss the arcade scene.
One more thing about tthe oicho cheese: if you are in a blockstring and you have a "stored oicho" you can mash the crap out of the punch buttons. If there is any gap in the blockstring at all and the opponent is in Honda's throw range, the oicho will come out and interrupt the blockstring. This will also happen if the blockstring, or any move at all really, ends with the opponent minus and in Hondas throw range.
This is one of the main reasons that Honda is *extremely* difficult to attack without fireballs.
This is what happens when there's no patching and no kids trying to cancel or nerf everything good in a game
The fact that e.honda can store his super just like chun AND has that oicho throw bullshit BUT is not a top or high tier char always makes me laugh.
And to top it off: there are people like me, that still prefer old honda for walking hands and better footsies XD
ST is like a bob ross picture, those happy little accidents make it special.
I can’t wait for Capcom to announce SF6 and the eventual stream of videos showing the game off and announcing characters.
To think the combo system was a mistake by adding more speed ,and they decided to keep it 🤷🏻♂️
I would not mind seeing Hold Grabs, Guard Breaks, Chip damage, and Chip kills off Supers and Special moves, and the old sf2 input grab style all over again in SF6.
as long as the grabs are techable maybe. But yeah i agree with you on special move chip kill or honestly even from normals. I do not like that I need to super to chip kill in sfv
@@raiden3079 The grabs will be tech-able if they make it the same properties and range as Capcom v.s. SNK 2 normal grabs. Because in there, the range on normal grabs was extremely short.
The thumbnail is perfect
I've played a shit ton of SF2 as a casual home player, and I've never even known about these 😰
I feel like the actual “simple and quaint” fighting game is the SF Alpha series
@@HeirofDacia I mean, yeah Alpha 3, but Alpha 2 is extremely tame. Vaille CC doesn’t really break the game (you have to be ultra close to the opponent so you can bait it).
Super turbo is extremely anime for what it is and honestly you could write an article on that stupid DJ jump medium kick alone. That thing has some insane properties.
That thing can hit from the front
Like almost a regular jump in
Still crosses up
Sure if you are a noob you will have problems,sfv created for people like you with,comeback mechanics ,4.4 frames of input lag plus 4frame input buffer to give you the opportunity to get reversals on time.You can choose ryu and mash the button to replicate the evo momment 37 also
Super Turbo players:Great Warm-up!
SF2 player here. (my YT name is different from my FGC tag -- check my profile) But this dirty crap is what we love about the game. More of this stuff *should* be allowed in newer games... On a sidenote.... I also play that "unadulterated waifu cockfighting" game too... I mean, some of these things -- eg stored inputs, I think if tweaked, can be acceptable even in modern game standards of broken. That is actually a very specific example that i always say should be explored more in games. but yeah, the jump in TODs? they're fine.
marvel 2 and 3 had 0 meter infinites, and ST is a game where anti airs are AMAZING. if you play that game, basically, if you don't know your anti air, you deserve to lose.... what about beginners learning the game? well, Those TODs while simple, are actually quite hard to execute, they actually don't come up too much at levels where people don't know their anti airs... heck i know some REALLY good deejay players that win tournaments or come close, and can't execute that TOD 100%, and definitely know some dictators who when rusty can't do that TOD. and you know what? they still win tournaments without it.
The answer to a lot of SF2 questions when people ask "what do i do" about a certain situation... the short answer is... don't get into that situation... and how to do that? well, that's what keeps us playing because you can write a novel and still not fully answer the question.
The humor here is absolutely killing me laughing.
When people say SF2 is "all about footsies and honest fundamentals" obviously have never played it for real.
If you hate "come back mechanics" in modern fighting games, playing SF2 will give you some perspective because in SF2 the come back mechanic IS SF2 itself.
Also don't believe anything David Sirlin has to say about the matter.
dominating a t hawk and then at a pixel they land a command grab. Gg t hawk wins
SF II: CE is a bit more legit, although they are unavoidable tick throws, and stun combos off one jump in.
It doesn’t have ST’s jank.
Old men just don't want to admit that their supreme gentlemen, chess only fundamentals and footsies is just a broken mess at high levels. Fun, nostalgic, but is just way too busted. I've played ST since the Kaillera, GGPO days, and the mentality then was that this game was like a chess game and MVC2 and 3S were completely random. It's good people have come to the realization with the advent of patching and modern balancing that ST should not be taken seriously at a high level.
@@saado99 Tbf, there are some extremely engaging and fun MUs in ST. Most fireball vs fireball MUs are quite fun IMO.
Idk, I didn’t think HD Remix was bad as an attempt to balance the game at all. It wasn’t perfect but it was certainly better. I know people dislike Sirlin as a person, but I think as a game designer/player he’s actually extremely competent.
Sometimes I can't believe we actually put up and learned fighters in the 90s,it was brutal. Back then there were less distractions which allowed you to focus more and crying about it was frowned upon. People have it easy now with balanced games.
Here I thought block stun into throw was the cheapest thing from SF2 days
If I got knocked down in a real fight my chances of winning that fight diminishes big time. The same with this video game.
Yeah, it seems like most fighting games in the 90s had alot of broken and cheap stuff, especially the boss characters.
You didn't even point two of the greatest strenght of Claw haha!
Low profile "crouch jab" : if a cross up his to high in the air, you can make whiff and then throw on landing.
Scarlet Terror bug charge : if you built the downback charge, then, until you always keep the back charge, you can still finish the Scarlet input latter. So basically, having Claw blocking your jumping attack, it doesn't mean he hasn't a Scarlet stored.
People got to know that this video is just the top of the iceberg that ST is.
Forbidden Reversal Super for some characters (Ken, Sagat, Dhalsim)
huge throw range differences between character (Dhalsim is basically a grappler)
Ken cross over funky kicks
Ryu delayed Super animation
Ryu Super vs Shoto doing hadouken not comboing because of hit character hitbox animation variations
Fei Long air thow being activable only at the upper top of the jump while Guile can make it almost on the ground
ChunLi upkicks kinda guard OS bug
Honda charge Super just like ChunLi stored Super
Old Fei overhead kick not being an overhead (fixed in New Fei)
All these cross over hitbox that can hit althougt the character is on your back, like Fei Long LK and MK / Dictator sliding roundhouse / Dhaslim slidings / Cammy MK
Super buffer being so long and janky that player Boxer or Claw, you can charge, do a jump and then release Super
Zangief one hit dizzy (fixed in US version)
SPDs can be performed just throwing the joystick and pressing punch
Some moves are +11 on block, like Blanka close MP
Blanka super auto correct its final aiming direction, although it has been launched in the opposite of the landing point of the opponent
Blanka / Claw can build Super Meter just by pressing their back dash / back flips
Old Ken DP is invicible all the fucking way up and has something like two frames recovery when landing
Claw and Sim have so low stun bar that sometimes, just a simple two hit combo can dizzy them
Claw is so thin that most of character have to adapt / shorten their combo or the combo ender won't hit
DeeJay hit animation can make some combo not work on him because of hitbox variations
Crouching Sagat hitbox is very long on the ground permitting combo only possible on him in this situation
Combo damage reduce applies only happen if the combo starts on the very end of the bar. A simple 3 hit combo can do 50% of life bar if you start it high on the life bar but if you start it on the last 20% maybe it won't kill.
Time runs Super quick
Stage speed difference? Players have to adapt from a match to another because of speed change ! E Honda and Zangief stages are so differents!
Some juggle combos can be done only if you make the guy in the air break a stage box
Some juggle combos can be done only if the juggled opponent hit the corner mid air after the first hit
ChunLi Neckbreaker can be played like the Barcelona Loop if you master that ground bounce animation, you can hit as a cross up
I am not even sure I listed here 30% of what can be considered broken ? Janky ? Unbalanced ?
All in all, ST is the "git gud" game. In many situations described in this video, there are ways to get out, but it requires a lot of training, cold blood and good read. The game is still played by thousands of players in the world. They will play until the very end and will still have fun forever.
Competitively speaking I would say there is something like :
300 players in NA
300 players in EU
200 players in SA ? I don't really know
500 in Japanese gamecenters ? I don't really know
You can notice plenty of players from Africa on Fightcade
There used to be some tournaments in Australia too...
Great video anyway, always fun to see people starring at ST bugs ^^ Thanks!
SF2 was beyond busted! I played the absolute hell out of it as a kid and didnt realize how much i dislike ST until i got older LMAO! Good times
Do a vid on SF3 next! :P Cool vid as usual, keep it up my dude!
SF3 has some sass but hardly busted on the SF2 levels haha. Although who knows
I knew about Chun's stored super, but never tried the E.Honda one. _Holy busted chips its so easy to do WTF_
As Jmcrofts said about Chun Li, she approaches you menacingly!
The original SF2 The World Warrior was the most busted of them all. Some match-ups were just about impossible. Zangief SPD loop is impossible to break out of. Ryu, Ken, and Guile had infinite stun loops just with short or jab. Guile had the "magic throw" bug. What a complete mess of a game, but still crazy fun. I grew up with SF2 in high school and I wouldn't trade those experiences for the world.
super street 2 turbo was literally broken. devs confirmed they released it on a way too high difficulty on accident
Whenever people talk about older fighting games and how unbalanced they were i always remember how king in tekken 2 i think or tekken 1 would put you at minus 90 after you BLOCKED his df 1 so the strategy was to just get hit by it until you got pushed back
"Street Fighter 2 was a broken, savage game."
Sailor Moon players: How quaint!
Super Turbo is a broken piece of shit game with stupid busted moves and gimmicks.
And fucking love it for that. This coming from a dude who plays Guile and would in the past play against an online buddy who uses O.Sagat lma000
Slow? Man, you can have a frickin' round in the time it takes a modern 'cinematic' super to finish, lol.
Never knew that about Chun Li... I love it!
1 frame reversals killed this game for me. If reversals had a buffer, then basically 75% the cheap shit disappears instantly.
My friend actually said to me whenever I beat him with a throw, that's illegal in tournaments that's being cheap since I use to spam throws back in the day to beat him.
Would love to see a breakdown like this of World Heroes
haha outside of spamming with brocken and doing silly stuff with rasputin I don't know much world heroes. I just mashed and had fun with it I don't know the details on that one
I mean it is called Street Fighter. Street fights are dirty with no rules. Can't get Capcom for false advertisement. Lol
I like blanka and Vega meter build up with the back dash and flip
My personal Fav moment in this game...
Was waaay back in the Day
I was stomping out a Slim
With a pixel of health left...
Slim got the Yoga hold
And I watched my Lifebar vanish
Till F. Long Died. The hold did more then half life.
Soooo Sheep
There was a magazine once and it showed you can hit someone in e Honda's pool
TIL that E Honda has a command throw in SF2
This is why SF Alpha and sf3 was made. They balanced them yearly from arcade data. But you correct, sf2 is unfair and broken.
Well alpha and sf3 were made to make more money. Not out of any balance concerns. Turns out on SF3 though instead of making more money they almost killed the franchise
And yet Alpha 3 is broken as fuck and loaded with infinites. 😂
Like throw braking refunding the health and the resulting inability to brake a throw that would kill you.
Chunli waddling forward: ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ
Yo not to be that guy Rooflemonger but supers actually come from Art of Fighting before they were in super turbo. Just making sure SNK gets the cred it deserves
Oh yea, as someone who's been playing Super Turbo literally since 1994 i can say without a doubt it's broken and busted, lol. I still love it tho, it's one of my favorite fighting games of all time. It's just really fun man, it's "pure". No comeback mechanics, no super long crazy combos, it doesn't have 20 meters to manage and mechanics to remember, it's "basic" but still incredibly fun. ST is from a time far before "balance" was something seriously taken into consideration.
well, future variants of the game were essentially balance patches. Base street fighter 2 and then future versions did add more mechanics and character abilities to make things more balanced, but it was rather minimal changes overall
You can die in literally one hit, and supers are often safe and do a ton of damage. The game doesn't need a "mechanic" to comeback it's built into its engine.
You forgot to talk about the terrible jump in hotboxes. You can hardly anti air in the game without getting hit yourself.