What Does Mike Winger Think About Theonomy? | with
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Pastor Joel Webbon recently had the privilege of sitting down with @MikeWinger (from "Learn To Think Biblically”) to attempt to convince Mike of Theonomy! Subscribe to our RUclips channel for more content like this.
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#theonomy #mikewinger #theology
Great conversation, it's obvious that this is an area that many Christians have not really thought through, Mike seems to be in that position (no disrespect to Mike, I highly respect him).
It seems the part that is hard to understand for many is that Christ is head over all governments so if we say that governments should rule according to God's law, it doesn't require the Church to be over government because both the Church and the state are both under Christ's rule.
Essentially, do we really believe that as the great commission is being fulfilled and people are saved, believers are not to desire for the government to rule according to God's law instead of pagan law?
Exactly right. Nailed it.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
:)
@@RightResponseMinistries☕️
I enjoy healthy discorse like this. As a guy who views myself as primarily Calvinistic but I just can't believe the optimistic views held by postmelenielists. I think the Church is going to be saved by the bell (Or trumpet). Admittedly, I'm not sure when that's going to sound. It really does seem very obvious that the eschatology/prophecy I mostly have studied. Is/has been occurring right before my eyes. I do love the optimism it's refreshing.
"There is no such thing as neutrality. It is not whether, but which." Love the clarity!
I am Reformed and I listen to Mike’s Tuesday Q&A live streams on the regular. I have learned so much from him. This conversation was fascinating because I never have understood Theonomy…heard the word but did not understand.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
:)
Great to see 2 brothers with very different theological positions speaking so well with each other. It's the one thing I've noticed about the postmillenial group...they seem to be the few reformed people that dialogue with non calvinists, which I really appreciate.
Thank you brother. It was a privilege to speak with my brother Mike.
He not a brother he is a arminian
@@bibleman7757 You are supposing to excommunicate - that is, disown - a Brother not for passing through the wrong Door, but for being incorrect about how the hinges work. Please repent.
@@jeremiahsherlock9144 he not a brother and yes he did not enter through the right door he believes in heresy and has a false Jesus that cannot save anyone
@@bibleman7757 Does he have a false Jesus, or does he misunderstand/underestimate the True Jesus?
I love Mike Winger, keep up the dialogue. Iron sharpens iron.
There will always be sincere and reasonable disagreements between believers about what the general equity is of any given biblical law and what should be legislated accordingly. Theonomy merely asserts that the legislations believers advocate for should be rooted in recognition of the abiding validity of all scripture (including not just the moral law, but also the ceremonial and civil law) and that individual believer’s best understanding of the general equity of the relevant passages. Agreement on the general equity extracted is not necessary, but agreement that the general equity is binding is necessary.
Very well said!
That's the summary I've been looking for. I've wondered for months now, "What are we really talking about?" with confusion on my brow, much like Mike through many phases of this good discussion. (I'm Reformed, but clearly have much to learn.)
@@RightResponseMinistries Mike is not our brother he is a arminian
@@bibleman7757 Arminians are wrong, but if they are truly Arminian, they are brothers. Pelagians are not brothers. There is a difference.
@@bibleman7757 no he isn't.
Love both of these men of God. Over the years Pastor Mike's teachings have helped in applying God's Word to rule over my heart and mind. More recently, Pastor Joel's teaching have helped in applying God's Word in all other areas of life. Both are invaluable to the body of Christ
This was great. I honestly thought I would side more with Pastor Mike. But I think Pastor Joel made some very good points. This just means I need to study more. Thanks Pastor Mike and Pastor Joel.
"The Mosaic Law was an easy yoke. It was not hard to keep. The parents of John the Baptist kept it perfectly (Luke 1:6). They obeyed the law; and when they fell into sin, they did what the law said to do about it. Thus, when Jesus called the people back to the law and warned them to do a better job than the Pharisees, He was not laying some heavy burden on them. Actually, He was lightening
their load." Through New Eyes: James Jordan
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
@@Cinnamonbuns13🦃
This conversation is so good. So encouraging to see such charity of thought and doctrine between brothers.
Literally just finished explaining to my husband that you remind me of a Reformed Mike Winger. Then this video popped up!
😂😂😂
Thank you brother! I love to see a conversation where both sides are just hearing and clarifying questions. Nobody gave up their grounds but seeds of truth were exchanged and the Spirit will move, but the body was maintained and unity wasn't destroyed. Excellent example of how to talk to brothers that don't hold all the same beliefs we do.
This is a really great conversation. Both of them did a great job of working on getting to understand the other person's position. I benefited greatly.
Mike Winger is legit.
Too legit to quit
@@willire8811 alegit heretic
Very confused on the law of God.
Yes, I have learned so much from Pastor Mike.
Amen
I'm like 50 minutes in. Winger is saying he's puzzled as to why there would be a discussion about applying the 10 commandments and I agree! What's selling me more and more on theonomy is the idea that God is unchanging and that our sense of justice can't be higher than His. So where do we look for His sense of justice? The OT law. If we see the death penalty being prescribed because murder is so heinous, then we should follow suit in present day, for instance. Same with kidnapping, or rape.
Basically, I think that God's pattern of justice is probably better than whatever arbitrary consequences we as a society can dream up.
This is true, and I'm sure Winger would agree.
But, don't overlook the fact that God mixed different things together in the law given on Sinai. Every Christian must acknowledge that some commandments that are not applicable today; these are often called the ceremonial law. Trying to discern the difference is what leads to the theonomy debate(s).
True, God is unchanging, but circumstances change. Therefore the application of God's unchanging character changes throughout human history and differing circumstances. In the case of this age, the people of God are defined by being baptized into Christ's body from every nation rather than his people being national Israel under the Old Covenant.
@@kyleboone1242 sure but I'm not sure how that affects the theonomy discussion. If someone steals 1000 dollars from a my house, how should the civil government decide what a just punishment is for that?
@@artemthetrain14 You said God is unchanging, which I agree with. But what is unchanging about God is his character. He responds differently to circumstances at different times (i.e. Nineveh, the preaching to the Gentiles, etc).
I do not believe it is the prerogative of Christians to run government today. We are called to make disciples and be witnesses. Jesus said to "Give to Caesar what is Caeser's" and "His Kingdom is not of this world." However, if a Christian in civil government may draw their morality from the entirety of the Bible, including the law. But a civil government, even without the bible, will still be able to make some moral laws. After all, in Romans 13, when God calls us to submit to the government, he tells us to do so because they punish evil doers. And yet, at this time in history, clearly no government officials were Christians. God has placed his basic moral law on the heart of every person to know right from wrong (Rom 2). I think that non-believer who has never read the Bible could come up with a just punishment of what to do if someone stole $1000 from your home (like the code of Hammurabi in the ancient world).
Teach me, O LORD, the way of your statutes, and I shall observe it to the end. Give me understanding, that I may observe Your law and keep it with all my heart. Make me walk in the path of Your commandments, for I delight in it. Incline my heart to Your testimonies and not to dishonest gain. Turn away my eyes from looking at vanity, and revive me in Your ways. Establish Your word to Your servant, as that which produces reverence for You. Turn away my reproach which I dread, for Your ordinances are good.
Psalm 119:33-39 NASB
Thank you Joel and Mike for a wonderful conversation that was so friendly and kind! Although I am reformed and confessional, I am not at this time a Theonomist. I think for me, in this discussion, the biggest two issues that gave me the most difficulty were both tied to the same verse (Matthew 28:19-20, the Great Commission):
-First, I find myself highly in agreement with Mike’s arguments on this verse, especially with respect to the baptising. It seems like to make Joel’s argument of the governmental sphere work here, you need to add assumptions at a minimum to the text. This for me, especially is the case when we consider how places such as Revelation make it clear that people of every tribe, tongue, and nation will be saved, but this does not mean that the nations here are all Christianized, rather a different way of understanding this, that in my head seems more simple and to fit both texts more adequately, would be to say that until the Gospel simply reaches all of those who are the Elect of every nation, the end will not come.
-Second, at approximately time stamp 1:43:30, Joel says “It’s the postmil theonomic combo. It is, it really is two peas in a pod, it’s a combo. Because my thing is, I think theonomy is inescapable unless you’re, you’re just a pessimist”. I think why I struggle here, is that although I am a serious optimist in terms of the hope that all of the Elect have for their eternal life once they leave this world, and I believe that the Bible speaks of this very clearly, in contrast to me, the Bible seems to suggest that until Christ’s second coming, this world will become darker and darker. As someone holding to an amil view, this is what I see the Scriptures saying, and this is one of the reasons I have struggled for myself to be able to accept the postmil view and likely why I also struggle to fully grasp and hold to theonomy in terms of what Theonomists hold to. As a Christian, as I think both Joel and Mike would agree with, even though I don’t hold to Theonomy as a perspective, I am a theonomist in terms of the importance I place on, and what I believe we as believers are called to in terms of God’s Law (and yes, I do hold to the Sabbath😊). I would honestly love to see a follow up with either both of you or Joel in particular on how to address how to understand Scriptures that address how this world is moving in a more dark direction with respect to the postmil view.
Again, this was a really fantastic and such a peaceful and enjoyable discussion and I really learned a lot about this view of theonomy. So I thank you both sincerely for such a friendly and positive discussion on a topic that often brings a lot of strong feelings to the table! Very well done and valuable for the Body of Christ!
Great conversation, waiting for follow ups! Two thoughts for Mike - 1. The Church is not over the State (in reference to your last comments), God is, and His Word, which dictates to ALL spheres of government how to behave. 2. It is not a “government” that is Christian, it is a government full of Christians applying God’s Word to all spheres of life, which then in turn rule with God as King and rule giver. I wish Joel would ask Mike - If 80% of the USA are now true believers (which will happen) and 80% of Congress are true believers, what kind of laws should they make, and based on what authority?!? I hope he would then understand that if Jesus was serious about the Great Commission, and the Holy Spirit is successful in converting the Nations, the resulting society will be “Christian” by definition and it will not be rule by force but rule of Christ by and through Christians (not the “Church”) who want to obey Christ because they love Him.
54:58 was the best part! Exactly what I was thinking in that moment but Joel said it so well and with such great timing!
Thanks for the conversation.
I’ve watched both of you for years. Hope to see more of this in the future.
Blessings!
There is one word that clarifies “Separation of Church and State”: Jurisdictional. The church & state have separate Biblically assigned realms of authority and responsibility - and the truth of Scripture regulates where each institution’s jurisdiction extends.
This has been excellent. I respect Mike though I side totally with Joel. I respect Mike because of his passionate interest in the truth of God's word. He is humble (they both are very respectful) and has a attitude of wanting to know. I say this because it is Joel's podcast and he is the one doing the explaining about theonomy. This is prerequisite in knowing a man is a lover of God when he can have a transparent attitude and can be open to listen and learn and come to an honest conclusion...or not actually. Maybe someone can't settle an idea in his/her mind for some time. But irregardless of what side of the fence he ends up sitting, I would never count Mike out as I would never count my Arminian mother out. Got some things wrong, but God is gracious and has the ability to teach his own servants.
I’m still not sure where this plane landed.
That really was excellent to hear!! Helped me so much to understand why people look at me cross-eyed when I mention general equity theonomy.
My big take away is this… you guys were talking about it near the end…
When people are converted or when believers become government officials (of some kind… legislator, sheriff, even government school teacher) there should be NO WAY for their beliefs NOT to inform what they do. If you are a slave of Christ, you are about your Master’s business. So, we absolutely need to know HOW to do these things. I think it’s called having a Biblical worldview. A great place to start with that is “Total Truth” by Nancy Pearcey. Or, you can just go back further to Francis Schaeffer. 🙏🏻
I was listening to the two of you talk about the law of Christ and I kept asking, "How do you define love? How do you define love?" Then you asked the question. Thank you!!
Mike Winger is pretty solid with his biblical teachings. While I do lean more conservatively, I'm also not a calvinist (nor an arminian).
Your one or the other there no middle ground
Everybody thinks their favorite pastor/teacher is solid. If they're beliefs don't hold up under honest biblical scrutiny though, then that says a lot about how solid their teachings actually are. Half to most of the time, Winger teaches falsehoods or he tries to take a neutral stance on something that is concretely shown in scripture.
@@bibleman7757 yikes buddy that just ain’t true.
The only serious difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is whether God saves “the elect” arbitrarily (Calvinism of today) or through using his foreknowledge to save those who are faithful (Arminianism)
Provisionist?
@@bibleman7757 There’s Molinism, which is (if Pastor Mike had to label himself) what he calls himself. It is both God’s sovereignty and our free will. Which is what scripture definitely seems to say and teach when you read it all in context!
What a great example of believers being able to converse with grace. I'm more and more impressed with Webbon.
mike: "what do you think of this?"
host:"ramblings"
mike: "what do you think of this?"
host:"ramblings"
Amen I love see brothers in CHRIST talk over their perspective. Pastor Mike isn’t reformed at all in his theology but He is our brother in Christ.
Hey brother thank you so much for the very honorable, respectful, caring, thoughtful dialogue with brother winger on this topic. This is how All of our conversations should go. I felt the difference between your positions but I felt more the respect and love. Thank you for that.
Mike's question about whether one must be a theonomist to practice love was a pivotal moment. I would ask, can one define love without reference to the law of God? As Joel said, people have twisted love to mean all manner of things, including evil. How is the term to be bounded if not by God's law-word? I think the answer must be yes, you must be a theonomist whether you realize it or not.
That was a very enjoyable and charitable conversation to listen to between two brothers… very well done Joel! And thanks also to Mike for asking good questions and providing some great push back as well. I do hope that he does find time sometime in the future to look more into it… and it would be cool to see a follow up sometime after that. For me, PostMil and Theonomy have been really helpful in sharpening a lot of my understanding of Scripture and its application to culture today. Definitely a worthwhile consideration - if even just to help sharpen your thoughts on these matters. Bahnsen, North, DeMar, Wilson, and Rushdoony have been really great “conversation partners” for me through their books.
Thanks for this. Since becoming Reformed within the last two years, I've heard a lot of new concepts, theonomy being one of them. Mike articulated many of the questions I've had (and still have).
I must say, Joel, I get a sense that your understanding of theonomic government is _much more_ gracious than I've heard from anyone else speaking on the subject. It would be great if others made it clear that Christians won't be policing homes for Sabbath-breakers, or putting Muslims in concentration camps.
While I don't think that Constantine is the best example of theonomic government to turn to, I'm sure Christians in the Roman Empire breathed a sigh of relief that it was finally encouraged by the government to be a Christian. (I doubt Constantine's testimony that Christ told him to conquer under the sign of the cross, but I'm not willing to go so far as saying Constantine wasn't saved.)
I get why postmillennialism and theonomy go hand-in-hand. I would say I lean postmillennial, but I'm not ready to make an intellectual commitment to it. All I know for certain about eschatology, since coming from the confusion of the Dispensational view, is that Christ is returning some day. It could be tomorrow, the next day, or 10,000 years from now and He would not be slow in keeping His promise. As it is written, "Even so, come, Lord Jesus!"
I don't know any Theonomists you believe Muslims should be put in concentration camps. Those you publicly entice people to follow the false God of Islam would be executed but if they privately practice their religion they would be fine.
@@innovationhq8230 The Great Commission doesn’t say anything about executing proselytizers of false religions. My concern about theonomy is that some Christians who promote it just want to kill people.
Just finished listening, and again I loved this. I'm the sidelines guy giving advice to the professional by saying this, but I would have loved to see you ask follow up questions to his questions, like, "How do your doctrines answer your questions?" I loved hearing your answers, and I learned from them, but it typically seemed to take the position of defense. (Defense not in a negative sense) Of course, there's always the possibility that this was not the place for that. And just so you know, I didn't want to see you go on "offense" to "destroy" Mr. Winger, but I was truly interested in how he solved the problems that come from the question, "To what do civil governments appeal to define evil as they fulfill their God-ordained mission of restraining it?"
Fantastic point.
I am still defining and shaping my theological ideas, but I try to keep an open mind to learn as much as possible from different ideas. I strive to learn and think about the ideas given those who are smarter than me such as Mike Winger and Joel Webbon and others.
I believe in the idea of living under God's holy, wise, and just ways by giving individual persons natural rights and the freedom to chose his ways. The readings of Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine writings build their arguments on the how the Bible gives us guidance to live together.
Two warriors breaking bread.
"If my Kingdom was of this world then my servants would be fighting" . . . finish the verse though . . . "so that I would not be delivered over to the Jews". Jesus was saying that His servants would not be fighting to prevent His crucifixion not that His servants do not fight to advance His Kingdom.
Great discussion. Need more of these.
Well said. Thanks!
also,the fact that David's kingdom is also the kingdom of Christ proves that in this verses Christ is just talking about some of his kingdom,david's kingdom is truly from earth,and it is passed down to Christ,so Christ is kingdom is also from this world in some way
I think it’s a little bit condescending to call Winger “less conservative” or “moderate.” He’s absolutely conservative but admittedly comes from a different tradition. I mean, it would be great if he were reformed, but saying that means he’s not as conservative is a mischaracterization.
He's not that conservative.
@@innovationhq8230 I’m pretty sure that he considers himself conservative.
@@PaDutchRunner From what I remember he was saying that he is soft complementarian which is not conservative. People who are truly conservative believe in patriarchy.
Thank you! Great discussion!
Regarding the Sabbath, I know Mike would ask for an example of nations in the Bible, but there’s definitely examples of reward for Gentiles who do follow it. One of the most amazing promises in my opinion. Isaiah 56:3-7
[3] Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will surely separate me from his people”;
and let not the eunuch say,
“Behold, I am a dry tree.”
[4] For thus says the LORD:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
[5] I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.
[6] “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD,
and to be his servants,
everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant-
[7] these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”
Let me know if you had a chance to read my comment above.
Another thing to add is that prophecy shows that all flesh will be observing the sabbath.
Isaiah 66:23
“And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.”
Loved this. Thank you!
Psalm 2, Isaiah 11:9, and the question “by what standard” or “how do we define Justice/what is true” have been helpful for me in understanding this topic
Thank for for this video both of ylu brothers please keep doing this it helps to break things down and help ppl that don’t understand a lot
Of the rhetoric that just goes on without explaining it to people that have no clue. I love this. Thank you. Praise Jesus
I am not sure where I land on post mill, amill, or premill nor am I a Calvinist but I definitely believe that theonomy is a view that makes sense and seems to be consistent with Christs’ reign and objective morality (God’s Law).
Love this discussion between brothers in Christ. Both of your ministries have been such a blessing in my life. Would love to see Mike back once he has gathered his thoughts or had some time to look into theonomy further. This is a topic I have mixed views on but these discussions are really insightful and help to develop my own position on things according to the Scriptures.
Appreciate the conversation. Mike appears to see teaching as being over, rather than teaching affecting every sphere: family, church, and state.
Born Again Philippines is coming very, very near in Jesus Christ Holy, mighty and powerful name I pray Amen.
Great minds❤
Mike is a very clear communicator. He also strikes me as a compassionate person.
Yeah, agreed.
Absolutely phenomenal video, as usual. Pastor Joel is one of the most brilliant and faithful thinkers of this generation.
Very kind. Undeserving, but very kind.
"we are not under the law"... not under the condemnation of the law (in Christ)
Good stuff, thanks Joel and Mike.
I think you're right about the connection between theonomy and postmillenialism. I became convinced of postmillenialism in 2019, and then theonomy probably a year ago or so. I think if I was still a staunch premill or still a dispensationalist I would have definitely viewed the last two years a lot differently--probably would have thought it was indicative of an imminent return of Christ.
Exactly.
Joel, I say this with love but you gotta shorten your responses my man. The segment from 43:32 to 47:40 was a roller coaster.
I actually really like Joel’s longer explanations. He gets very detailed and that is exactly what is needed. I expect this from Joel, so I am ready when I listen to him. If I want shorter things, I listen to other people.
@@kimmurphy72 At times, I agree. Joel is clearly very knowledgeable. I’m just saying in a dialogue like this, particularly one where there is disagreement and back-and-forth, it can stifle the flow of the conversation. The goal should be to respond to the key points or questions (usually 1 but sometimes 2) raised or asked, ideally as concise as possible while still providing sufficient detail for clarity. This becomes difficult though if the other person responds to the key point but then continues on to bring up 6 other points. Either the original point is lost or it becomes less clear in thinking about the others as well.
Maybe so… I’ve just been in conservative evangelicalism for over 25 years now where sooooooo many things were assumed or vague. So much has been cleared up in just a small amount of time listening to Joel and Jon Harris and AD Robles and Canon (Doug Wilson, etc.) 😊 I am quite happy!
@@kimmurphy72 yeah that’s definitely a top tier squad
Awesome example of how to have convos regarding theological differences! Loved it.
This video helped me think out some issues concerning the doctrines discussed. Thank you, brothers.
Of what sins are we guilty now? Only unbelief? Is murder a sin for which people are judged by GOD? What sins apply to us now?
2 of my favorite content makers. Thank you both, gentlemen for talking through these different angles cordially.
Love Winger and Joel! Winger was definitely my gateway drug! 😂
Joel is the best explainer of all things theonomic and postmil. I’ve listened to many others, but Joel is the best 🎉
Matt. 22:37 - 40 covers all the laws. If you truly love God and your neighbor you will be following the Law.
This is great! I really like both of you, so I was so excited to see this! Pastor Joel, you have the best guests!!
This needs to happen more! You are awesome Joel Webbon to host others with different views
This was a good conversation, but I think too much time was spent at particulars and not enough time was spent establishing why Theonomy is foundationally necessary. I think it would be cool if there was a follow-up episode where Joel got to ask Mike most of the questions instead of the reverse for this very reason.
That would mean Joel not going on and on and on never really answering anything or proving his point. He can not even just say what Theonomy is! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Idk why Matt 28 means the church is in charge. As we disciple and teach and city officials, politicians, business owners, employees, investors... As they get saved, they will seek to honor God in their position. And what does that look like? Well, they will learn what that looks like from the church, but it doesn't mean that the church suddenly as governmental authority over them.
SUPER interesting, and l loved the whole talk! Thank you Joel! Love Mike Winger btw ...l think everyone does! :D GLORY to Jesus!
Good discussion. Good explanations from Joel with some good push-back and questions from Mike. Thank you both.
All seemingly negative New Testament passages addressing the law fall into one of three categories:
1. A condemnation of the Law as a means to Salvation.
2. A reference to Christ’s fulfillment of the Ceremonial Law.
3. A statement of the Christian’s rescue by Christ from death-dealing nature of the Law.
For the record I like you and Jeff and Mike ! gives me the scripture spot on
Had to drive 2 hours for work this morning and this was the perfect thing to listen to. Still not sure where I stand on this issue, I think Joel and Mike both make great points. Ultimately though I believe these are still two brothers in Christ and disagreements over theonomy is not going to be the difference between whether someone is saved or not
This conversation was excellent! Please do more collaborations in the future
Love Mike Winger! Thanks guys!
Hate to say it, but at the end of this convo, it doesn't sound like theonomy is any different than regular ole Christianity. I think that's why the "debate" was a bit confusing at times. It sounds like maybe the debate is really about eschatology (whether post-millenialism is valid). But they did a great job debating respectfully and with charity
That's something I remember Bahnsen noting in one of his books about Theonomy. He was surprised at how much puchback he was getting even from fellow Reformed theologians who knew the history of the movement, the three uses of the law, the historical position on civil law, etc. For Bahnsen, he was looking into God's law in a more detailed way and hammering out the implications of reformed doctrine as it applied to civil law. He was expecting agreement on the thesis and wanted debate over the details. But for others, it seemed the very idea of applying God's law civilly was considered anathema.
That's one reason I think the discussion is so important. There is a deep seated antinomianism in the church today, and we really need to get at the root of that and correct it.
This is a great discussion. It is as it should be, you will notice that there are others that show complete disrespect for others opinions which of course just leads to confusion and nothing is gained.
Kinda funny to see Mike keep coming back to “but the church has the power to tell everyone else what to do”. I understand where he is coming from, but I think it is reading our Machiavellian culture of power concentration into the great commission.
Mike is awesome!
Excellent video. Please do a follow up conversation after you've each had time to consider the other's perspective. I absolutely love this type of friendly back and forth discussion.
God's LOVE only. And He said what that is
I am subscribed to both men on RUclips. I believe they both love ❤️ God and His Word.
This was very edifying and informative. Thank you brother Joel and Mike!
Christ is king of all kings! The growth of his kingdom is seen in the fact that Rome used to cover the globe and now is a dot whereas Christians or the church was a dot that began in Jerusalem but now covers the globe!
Amen!!
The "Christianity" that Rome spread is not biblical Christianity, and it easily provable with the facts of history and what is prophesied in Rev. 17. The fact that the traditions of Catholicism and Protestant do not match up with those of the 1st century Church clearly proves this.
Love Mike another San Diegon and tremendous teacher.
God's nature is unchanging.
How each society and time period implements being faithful to the character of God may look different,
but the moral values themselves are unchanging.
Frank Turek gives the example about the parent telling the child "stay out of the street";
then when the child grows into an adult, that same parent tells that same child:
"Go out into the street and get a job!".
The moral values don't change; we humans change, to a degree.
Michael Heiser goes a good bit into talking about how a lot of the old testament cleanliness laws were more-so a telegraphing God's other-ness and the concept of holiness(being set apart).
That's why we would no do the whole law about not wearing mixed fibers as Christians today, but implement holy behavior in other ways.
It is an important question to ask how the Christian is best able to glorify God today, to what degree, and with what methods/goals; good discussion.
Absolutely loved this discussion. Mike is sooo good at explaining lofty, intellectual topics in an approachable way. I’m longing for this discussion in a debate format.
As an Aussie I just heard Joel say "regenerate, 'true blue' Christian"! That's the first time I've heard an American use the phrase 'true blue'. Is Aussie lingo spreading? If so consider me stoked.
You are exactly right....what does LOVE God and LOVE neighbor??? If you take away the 10 commandments ....look out!
Fans of both these gentlemen. As a hairstylist I am fascinated by Joel’s haircut
We know we love our brother by if we love God and keep his commandments. I have heard a pastor say, well, God’s commandment is love, so that’s all John is saying. But I’m thinking, why would John have bothered to say we know we love our brother by if we love? At some point it would seem to be relevant to ask, and which law is it that is written on our hearts now in Christ? Isn’t it *that* law?
Otherwise, we do have a hard time defining love of neighbor. Does it mean we should not prosecute crime, because I am to love neighbor as self and I would never personally want to face civil justice for committing a crime? Romans 13 indicates God still wants civil justice in the earth, right now, before the return of Christ. But to what evils exactly does government apply the sword? Does love mean to feel affection for an enemy or a neighbor so distant I will never meet that person? Enter civil justice codes - the means by which I love a neighbor whom I will never meet. I maintain true justice in society for his sake, protecting him from theft and murder. I offer a literal cup of water to a literal thirsty body in Jesus’ name. Why wouldn’t I maintain a just society for him, right here in this earth?
So you have Deuteronomy 19, due process in court, beautifully strategized so that the justice system itself may not be used as a murder weapon. But Deuteronomy 19 applies more broadly and more deeply - say to disciplines of thought in the inner person. How do you evaluate the truth or falsehood of any claim? Isn’t there a court of the mind, in which to hear witnesses and investigate witnesses, without partiality? What would it be like to have a Christian populace who can think in a disciplined fashion because they’ve been practicing this word of righteousness?
His servants include the angels. He's not going to have his angels come in and whipe everyone out like the world's kingdoms do. It's not a flesh and blood battle.
1 Timothy 1 is also a proof text for theonomy: But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and godless, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for sexually immoral persons, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
1 Timothy 1:8-11 LSB
in our family, we have had negative experience with circ but no problem when they're left whole. I plead with you to reconsider circumcision, keeping your son whole will enable him a more whole experience- that God designed, when he marries later in life. at the very least, do not do as the world does and pass your son to careless doctors who will smile to your face and take as much skin as they can for profit, but take him to a Jewish Rabbi specialized in this area and they will leave him with more to grow into. Research research research. it can always be done later, but cannot be undone.
Amen! Mom of 2 intact sons here (12 & 10) with zero issues.
I’m in Canada and it’s becoming less common here. The US lives in such a self-centred echo chamber that most don’t realize circumcision is rare in the rest of the world.
Nothing wrong with the body God gave us. No parts need cutting off at birth.
It's a tradition thing at this point. Who doesn't want their sons to be as they are? I see what you are saying, but seems not important enough to address.
You are concerned that Joel's sons won't enjoy sex as much? Seems strange to me.
It broke my heart to hear this. Unless you are prompted to look into it by hearing about someone’s negative experience you wouldn’t realize it’s an issue; in my experience having 2 boys the practice isn’t discouraged or any risk really discussed at the Dr’s office. Unfortunately the pharmaceutical and anti-wrinkle/skincare businesses are keeping circ business booming.
@@sovereigngrace9723 Re: tradition Romans 12:2. We have running water and soap these days, Christians need not circ. My concern lies with both the infant who's brain chemistry will be needlessly changed by excruciating pain, may be robbed of his ability or desire to breastfeed as a result, and will very likely be robbed of flesh he will someday need to grow into; as well as the adult he will become, who will have to deal with whatever the doctor leaves him. Plus a certainty he'll experience at least a few of the multitude of issues that can result. His wife (should he marry) would also be impacted. Don't misconstrue me as a creep, these are mere realities that become more apparent the longer you read about the consequences that real adult men experience. The circumcision prescribed in the Bible is so vastly different than what is practiced today, which is why I suggested that if he's truly convicted to do this that a Rabbi would pay their son more grace in the future.
@K W thank you for that insight, you're correct! The decision should be his son's since it's no longer commanded by God to parents as consecration to Him, and can actually wage much harm the way it's executed en mass today.
Now we're getting to the REALLY interesting part of the video and the nitty gritty of the whole subject. One thing I lean toward agreeing with Joel about is that the Law itself is a form of Common Grace. I have pondered and talked with others MANY times about whether we are soteriologically better off today in an age of lawlessness and Godlessness than back in the day when "everybody" believed in God and "everybody" was a Christian. IOW, is it easier to lead one to Christ in a place where God is at least acknowledged to exist and His laws are recognized as a Moral Standard to follow and emulate or the opposite is true?
I tend to think Joel hit on something there. That the Law is not only a mirror that points back to us seeing our sin and need for a Savior but also a shield that restrains the outward manifestations of evil. It should be NO news or surprise to anyone to find that shield has been taken down and thus the law of sowing and reaping is at work hardening the hearts of the lawbreakers. Thus the "loving" thing to do would be to put that shield in place. Would it not?
Very interesting on both sides. I've never herd of the word Theonomy, but at the time of this recording I had never heard of you either. I was tracking with you both on most of it. I do love Mike, listen to him often. Good debate. Love that you both show respect. Truly living as brothers.
I'm sharing this interview with as many folks in my camp as I can. Great conversation
I'm commenting a lot but there was a lot in this episode. When he asked about proof texts and you brought up Matt 28, I thought....
Psalm 2. You have Christ asking for the nations, and for KINGS and RULERS to kiss the Son or be crushed... You have in Acts 4 part of Psalm 2 being interpreted as Herod and Pilate and the people planning to murder, and then you have the phrase "Today I have begotten you" being equated with the resurrection of Christ in Acts 13:33. Not to mention what did Satan tempt Jesus with last in Matthew 4? All the kingdoms of the world... But by shortcutting His eternal plan (His death and resurrection) and by worshiping Satan rather than God.
After Jesus's resurrection, He then says that all authority in Heaven and Earth has been given to Him, so go and disciple the nations.
In other words, you have in Psalm 2 the crucifixion, the resurrection, Christ asking for the nations, and political kings and rulers being told to fear and serve Jesus. In the NT you see the temptation of Christ (the kingdoms), Christ's death and resurrection, all authority being given to Him, and then the disciples being sent out on mission to go and win the nations.
Im not really holding onto any of my views here super strongly at this point, I need to parse all of that out more, but there's just too much actually political/governmental language (kings, rulers, nations) for me to ignore.
I first want to say that I appreciate these two brothers entertaining this topic. My question for Joel (and any Christian who separates out specifically the 10 Commandments as the "moral law") is if that is the "Law" or the part of of the Law that is eternal and what Christians should keep and do/live by, do you keep the seventh day of the week or the first day of the week. I would suggest that the seventh day (what we know of as Saturday) is the biblical Sabbath as stated in the 10 commandments and the first day (what we know of as Sunday) is the Christian (man-made) sabbath. Again, I appreciate that this topic is even being discussed. Or do you believe that as long as Christians simply keep one day out of seven days as "a" sabbath, that qualifies.
I agree with keeping the Ten Commandments out of love and respect for God. They are perfect and true, given by an eternal and unchanging God.
If you baptized the majority of all the nations then the mass majority of civil magistrates would be Christians. Not that we are in charge of the state directly. But if we are engaged the way we ought to be, it will happen. That's how postmil and theonomy works itself out.
Amen 🙏🏻
💓 Mike winger
I enjoy your maturity and calmness!
Great discussion. Thanks
So what's the point arguing over anything if God's already decided who's going to Heaven and what's going to happen?
1:26:24 "I don't think the nations are part of Christ's kingdom"
Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.
Psalm 2:8-9
The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
Psalm 103:19
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule3 them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Revelation 19:15
For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:27-28
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
Matthew 28:18
Amen.
This is one of your best I think. I have throughly enjoyed listening to two brothers have a cordial discussion on such a contentious subject. As for me, I simply can't understand how we can love our own children, much less our neighbor, and have the hands-off approach to politics that the American Church has grown accustomed to having. One of the lines of reasoning that makes it so contentious, from my perspective, is at 54:06.There, Mr. Winger seems somewhat incredulous as he restates Mr. Webbon's views. (Incredulous may not the best word, at a loss for another ) As we look around our culture with Sodomy being praised, institutionalized through matrimony, and bordering on the state religion in the public schools, along with out-of-control taxation, theft through money-printing, murder of the unborn and our children being transed, that anyone would reject what Mr. Webbon is saying just seems odd to me. Granted, the theonomist position would have probably seemed odd in the 50's, but the truth is that government laws then actually were much closer to Biblical law. Now we are literally, as we speak, going over a cliff and there is still this automatic, and I think thoughtless, repulsion to the correct rolls, past, present and future, of the Church in culture. And all of this while we can actually see the cultural rot from our living room window.
I think if you believe in either post mil or dispy premil you have to believe in theonomy to some extent.If postmil then more people will become christian and the inevitable outcome is the laws and institutions will reflect the faith.If you are premil you must believe in theonomy but it will be a literal earthly millennial reign of Christ establishing it.I dont see how this is even controversial.Its more of a argument of when and how than if.