Deadly Procedure | TWA Flight 5787
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 24 апр 2019
- Please support this channel by following me on Patreon
/ allecibay
Music: Comedy Is Over
Artist: Dalo Vian
Listen to the entire music here:
• Comedy Is Over
Follow me on:
/ allec.ibay 
Игры
Anyone else feel a sense of relief when they landed and then a sense of dread when they turned back around and took off? Yeah, me too.
Same!! 😳
Yup
Yeah, what was the point of landing then immediately taking off again?
@@ChristopherHudetz maybe training?
Christopher Hudetz it was training but you know it was 1969 and ther were no simulators
"Back in my day the flight simulator was a real airplane, and proficiency checks weren't pass/fail they were live/die."
Damn cold but true, made me laugh
You know they still do proficiency checks in actual planes right? Most airlines do 50% sim and the back 50% actual flight do finish off proficiency checks, up to and including deep stalls.
Yeah, the good ol days. I don't miss them at all.
@@Bravo-Too-Much then they are idiots now that simulators are used........ no one dies in a simulator.
@@Bravo-Too-Much That is not true. The first time I flew a MD11 1992, and a A300-600 1995 it was on a scheduled revenue flight. In 1969 as a new hire DC8 FO after ground school We went to EAL in Miami for simulator and airplane. About 10 hours in a DC8-21 including a check ride, which in my case included a FAA Inspector. Then we went back to JFK for another airplane ride to ACY in a DC8-63. By 1979 I did all my initial 747 FO training and check ride in a simulator. Then one JFK-ACY training flight flight for 3&3, and a V1 cut. Did the same routine for 727 Captain in 1985 and DC8 Captain in 1987. Since then it was 100% Simulator Training.
The standard of safety we expect on board aircraft has come at a heavy price of lives over the years
The shocking thing is that even now in 2020 with all that we’ve learned and with all the awesome pilots, there are still procedures that belong in the 1980s. And d on’t get me started with pilots unable to see the state of their engines and landing gear.
@John Seba could of done without the moron part, Christ almighty.
Sad that these good men died before the advent of the simulator, and who knows how many lives the simulator has saved since.
Uftonwood2 Amen. RIP
I believe you will find that the first simulators WITH MOVEMENT were developed in the 1960s and previous to this flight. It could be that TWA had not yet purchased any or than they had ordered them but were waiting for delivery. Either way, they obviously did not have them, or if the did, they were not yet activated and used. Either way, it’s still very sad.
You know they still do proficiency checks like this in actual planes right? Clearly you don’t.
@@Bravo-Too-Much Yeah, after literally half a month in the simulators.
@@Bravo-Too-Much Why are you such a snarky tool? I've seen several of your unprovoked, nasty comments. Get help, dude. Seriously.
Allec Joshua Ibay, I've watched several (20+) of your videos that cover air disasters, and I want to say that I find them highly informative. I also appreciate your commitment to focusing on the facts of each incident, your refusal to indulge in anything resembling omniscient second-guessing, and how you refrain from other "editorial" comments. Please continue the good work.
Agree!
Absolutely. Stick to the official record - even if it’s inconclusive.
MACI maps out possible scenarios of unsolved crashes, which isn’t “omniscient” exactly, but gives commenters an open door by asking “what do you think?” What they think isn’t important. Usually it isn’t even interesting.
Ich habe meinen ersten Alleinflug auf einer Rhönlerche im Jahr 1967 gemacht. Wenn ich nur auf Instrumente und Checklisten gehört hätte, wäre ich längst tot. Ok, aber ich habe auch viel Glück gehabt. Mein Überleben verdanke ich all den sorgfältig und professionell arbeitenden Menschen, vom Fluglehrer über Mechaniker und natürlich die hervorragenden Profis vom ATC (in meinem Fall besonders die Langener) . Und bitte, nie aufhören, besser zu werden.
I wonder if he ever called for #4 to be spooled back up? Once they had a problem, training is over and survival mode switches on...
My thoughts exactly
just what I was thinking, get the power equalized. Then you can start using asymmetric thrust.
I was thinkingthe same thing. Sometimes the training and procedures need to be ignored briefly and you've got to fly the plane. Also did they have enough time to still land. It seemed like the call for a missed approach was not because they were anywhere off the normal approach, it was a training call. So if the gear doesn't come up and the flaps don't come up at least consider throttle down and land. Maybe they didn't have time of course. Finally back then they had a flight engineer that was supposed to be monitoring these things. This doesn't sound like a sudden immediate loss of pressure situation. Shouldn't he have called out the abnormally low pressure before the missed approach call? Oh well, they did learn something from it so that was good news.
My thoughts during the video as well. Stop playing the game when you have a real emergency. Not sure if it would have helped, but extra and even thrust could have gained some elevation for them.
Good debate and procedural calls on this thread... well done guys.
I wish I could forget ... I was on a high school senior trip to New Orleans in 1967. A Delta DC 8 (just dropped off passengers from Chicago, refueled and on a training mission) crashed into the Hilton Hotel, located across the street from the airport, at about12:47am, March 30th. I remember being frozen in place watching the plane turn perpendicular to the ground, crash through 1-2 homes, hit the railroad embankment behind the 2 story hotel, and then swerve into the corner of the Hilton. It killed about 19 - 6 crew members and those on the ground. Had it hit straight on (aimed for my nose) it would have killed over 200 people. When they say your life passes before your eyes in 1-2 seconds before death, they are correct. I thought this was the end of in-flight training!
PROBABLE CAUSE: "Improper supervision by the instructor, and the improper use of flight and power controls by both instructor and the Captain-trainee during a simulated two-engine out landing approach, which resulted in a loss of control."
Delta flight 9877
I thought this was gonna be another one of those cheesy recreations. But this was exceptionally well done. And this was an accident I was unaware of. Thank you for your hard work. Bravo.
Airplane with cable operated control surfaces: "Uh oh, something's wrong with the controls!------Quick, cut all the cables!"
Ah, let's turn off all hydraulic pumps and see how she handles.
@vachief Must be talking about UA 232.
@vachief Sometimes I wonder why flights, at least in the West with severe control problems don't head for the salt flats. Just one giant, never ending runway.
I guess when working in all complex systems, you learn to override some amout of common sense in training, since in alot of cases, since sometimes, with complex systems, what would normally be common sense will actually get you killed, and understanding that, you just learn to trust the procedures implicitly...
Although, you imagine there would be a few "deal-breakers" to that routine--such as when you are instructed to shut down all hydraulics.
(there probably are some cases prior to that his crash though, where the captain thought just that, and this was just the first one who didn't.)
That old captain realized the mistake, likely being a veteran from the war. (back when procedure was "stay alive")
@vachief as if he didn't try to land it on the belly (well, actually they had landing gear down, but the sink rate was too high for the gear to withstand it anyway). The damaged plane had a tendency for the right wing to go down, which was difficult to counteract with no hydraulics, no control of ailerons, or anything else besides two of the three engines and they simply ran out of time during the attempted landing. Choosing grass over the runway would likely have either been worse, or made no difference when the wing hit the ground and put the plane in a cartwheel motion.
In case you didn't know, trying to find whether they could teach this kind of a landing to other pilots, they ran a simulation of the conditions afterwards with test pilots 29 times and couldn't even make a runway let alone land the plane in a way that was survivable, and deemed it too complex and random to try and teach. It's incredible that almost 2/3 of the passengers survived the actual flight and landing.
tinwoods I agree his comment was snarky, but to his point, how could it be that seasoned pilots would think shutting down all hydraulics would end well? No slight intended.
Very unfortunate and sad incident. Amazingly created Allec
TWA twin globe 707s were a real beauty. These pix were actually the highlight for me.
Glad not on a passenger flight.
I agree the 707 had a Real simple elegance to them. I flew on several as a child. Thy looked great in TWA livery
A minor correction: The aircraft did not crash short of rwy 13. It impacted the NAFEC (now FAA Technical Center) ramp about 1000' short of the departure end of 13, and about 1000' to the south of the runway. I started work there 5 months after the accident, and there were still impact marks on the concrete, and the vegetation beyond had not grown back after the post-crash fire.
My Dad flew for TWA from 1951 to 1985, and he heard the inside knowledge about what happened during this training flight. If I remember right, he told me that when the hydraulic trouble started, the pilot flyng frantically asked the first officer to "give me back that engine, give me back that engine" or maybe it was "give me back #4, give me back #4." Somehow, it didn't happen. Wistfully, Dad wondered why they didn't just power up the idle engine and then deal with the other issues later. He said that's what he would have done, no doubt about it.
For a moment I thought i would talk to him again about what he remembered, then I remembered that he died a year ago this month, at the age of 95. So it goes. Anyway, thanks for the nice video, always enjoy watching them! JDB / John Boyce.
Man, the 707 in TWA's old StarStream livery was stunning! One of the most eye-catching liveries even to this date, bar none.
There sure were a lot of photos of this plane. I miss TWA and so many of the iconic airlines that ruled the skies in the early days of commercial aviation. If you had told someone back in the 1970's that airlines like Eastern, Northwest, Pan Am (and many more) would disappear from the national landscape in the decades to follow they probably would have thought you nuts. The industry has changed so much over the years and many of the great airlines that built it are now footnotes in flying history.
When I watch these vids I'm always praying for the aircraft to land in as safe conditions as possible! Come on come on, we can do it!
These always make me think about everything
I hear ya 😳
Thank you for uploading
Keep up the good work
Thank you for the good work and Information, very sad about what happened to the crew. Sometimes things just happen we do not have all the answers.
Iago54, quit flying before advent of modern sims, was an instructor/flight examiner in 3 USAF aircraft, C123, B57 & C118 (DC6) while there was a primitive sim for the C118 the rest were go fly the airplane. The first item (unofficial) on every emergency checklist was “Fly the F**KING PLANE”. I don’t want to remember how many times pilots, experienced or not, got so wrapped up in dealing the emergency their awareness of the overall state of the aircraft and flight were forgotten in their rush to deal with the original problem. It was pretty much standard to let the pilot being checked go to the outer limits of the instructors ability to recover. It was a lesson that in most cases only had to be experienced once to remain with you for ever. It matters little if you get so wrapped up in a problem that you crash from a totally unrelated problem.
I stay around 2500 kms from my hometown due to work commitments and get to visit my home once in a 6 month block. Earlier i used to feel the excitement around 1 months in advance of my flight date. Nowadays the flight part is so so depressing, every second on a flight is like a hour, all due to too much knowledge and information about plane crashes after subscribing this channel, i cannot take my eyes off the wings of the aircraft the whole time and even slightest of turbulence makes me nervous. I thank god everytime my flight lands and reaches the gate . Too much information is really a bad thing.
Gaurav Kumar Meena then you might have ‘died’ on a flight of similar model, for LUFTHANSA, in about 1972, it was 12 hours late due to snow in GERMANY, we would have got on in JFK, so we spent the tome at my sis in law in QUEENS, anyhow, we got on on way to KIN ( Jamaica ), sometime later over Hatteras , the dinner trays hit the ceiling, food & drinks, what a mess, then there was full moonlight for the test of the trip., that was the worst, but I certainly have had some other wrought trips, ALWAYS HAVE YOUR BELT AROUND YOU.,,,,, Cheers from NJ
misinterpreting information is a really bad thing. it's obviously more dangerous to drive those 2500 kms. flying has never been safer than it is today. accidents are RARE. when they do happen they are investigated to their fullest extent so much can be learned and the accident avoided/prevented in the future.
@@Threewulphmoon - 2017 saw NO commercial scheduled aviation fatalities worldwide!!
Anytime you start thinking that way #1, stop watching. #2 remember there are 5000 flights in the air most of the day any day of the week any week of the year. You couldn't find a flight to get on that would crash if you went to the worst airline in the world and flew every flight you could get on. I get the fear is emotional but you can use reason to get over it.
That many hours of fight time only to die in a training flight. Sad.
@Terry Melvin Ah you are correct Terry. Still sad.
@Terry Melvin I know Terry. I am not too sure if I call your question Monday night quarterbacking as much as hoping the crew took all corrective actions. Your question is so valid and heartbreaking because that could possibly recover the flight. The reason is one a lot of aircrews face, "ran out of vertical space." Sad. Thanks Terry.
Plane lands
Me: what could possibly go wrong
Gonna do an engine failure simulation
Me: oh no
So true, I love his videos because there is sometimes a good outcome. This one actually surprised me!
Yeah my feeling was when they landed the plane safely, that was good. Then they decide to take off again and find out they have an actual issue that results in their being killed. I think they should have called it a day after the first landing.
Wow these test flights that occur at low altitudes are scary. There is just not enough room, space, literally to make "on the fly" adjustments. Reminds me a bit of the Air New Zealand Acceptance / test flight over France that went tragically wrong, proving fatal to all 7 pilots. Their actions were recoverable IF they had been at FL 100 + but were only FL 030 couldn't save it.
RIP pilots ! I always say an earnest prayer of Thanksgiving each flight I take for all these sacrifices !
David A . Air NZ lost a DC8 back in the 60s at Auckland International performing engine out training. I guess if the TWA guys had pushed the no. 4 thrust lever up they probably wouldn’t have veered of to the right when they turned off the hydraulics. The rudder and spoilers were the only controls in the 707 that were hydraulic. The ailerons and elevator used aerodynamic servo tabs. Hence the nick name “ the lead sled”
The music you pick at end is perfect
My dad worked for TWA I remember this crash!
Ian Hunter sez: You're never alone with a schizophrenic.
You aren’t gunna switch off all the hydraulics are you ? Me , hold my beer .
it seems from numerous videos i have watched, that if you lose control of the plane, go back to the last control input and reverse it. If you turned off the autopilot, turn it back on. The change in behavior often is due to the last control input the pilot makes.
This is correct, but never turn the AP on in an unusual attitude! Pilots should be trained to get out of unusual attitudes. Of course, near the ground it’s almost impossible
"Let's call for 'all pumps off.'" 5 people die. "Let's revise that procedure."
Back in the day when we had Flight Engineers onboard. Gorgeous plane, sad outcome.
Darla Alexander I miss that position. Wish we still had that third set of eyes. I can remember when I was in that seat the number of times I caught something and the number of times I was in right/left seat and the engineer/second officer caught something. It’s called progress I guess.
In a couple of decades it will be ''back in the day when we had human pilots onboard''.
Except the Flight Engineer didn’t see the sheer madness of turning ALL the hydraulic pumps off. So what then is powering the flight controls?
bullwinklejmoos Now we have the “R/O” at least on the long hauls
@@rodblievers620 exazatly what i was thinking c130 flt eng self
I love FSX. I learned alot about flying on the simulator and how the real world pilots do it. There is definitely a lot to flying a commercial airliner!
The B 707 is one sexy bird though .
Machines are perfection of imperfection - Us.
gorgeous airplanes
Sure, but back then, in hindsight, if I had to chose between flying in a 707 or in a DC-8, I would have gone for the Douglas any day.
No such thing as perfection.
But yeah, planes are sweet. :)
A sexy airplane? I fear for people that see airplanes as sexy.
RIP pilots .... so sad that things like this had to happen in a live training test rather than a simulation of all the systems on a specific model.
So true. RIP
Yeah you think they'd do it in a simulation lol. I mean what were they thinking. Whats the worst that can happen?? Lol
michael88h as if they had good simulators at that time
Today the first time a pilot flys the airplane it is full of passengers or freight. Hydraulic systems don’t fail in simulators unless the Instructor/check airman fail it.
Amazing that the original procedure was to, first, shut all hydraulic pumps, ALL! It just seems logical, especially at the altitude they were, to gain altitude and then ascertain which system was leaking before shutting the pumps for that system.
The action of turning off the pumps was correct and had no impact on events.
After Graduation I flew for TWA. I still think about the traumatic plane crash i watched in New Orleans and the young people that passed away.
This is a good example of why I rant against the "checklist" approach when near the ground. At 30,000 or 40,000 feet altitude the pilot and crew usually have sufficient time to go through a checklist. When near the ground (the few minutes around takeoff and landing), the "checklist" approach can be fatal. When near the ground the pilot should invest all his attention into the process called "fly the airplane". The copilot [and engineer when there is one] should be looking at instruments and reporting anything out of the ordinary to the pilot flying the airplane. Obviously people at airplane manufacturers and airlines who "make the rules" are not pilots, because they would know better. They would know when near the ground, checklists are dangerous.
max bootstrap aviate, navigate, communicate....
@@MichaelSheehy75 : What, no checklists? :-)
R. Anderson Haha no, not a pilot, though I have read my share of accident investigations (aircraft and railroad).
Musik
The pilots simply never have enough time to assess the situation - not just this clip , but many others as well - pilots / crew / atc have the knowledge. Things happen very fast @ 300 mph. RIP
@Blanketed Trust im 87 jack ass
My first time seeing your channel. You are doing a GREAT job! Congrats on an excellent channel. Liked/Subbed. My 2 oldest are half P.I. :-)
If I remember correctly (it's been many years 32?) we had a B707 in for a D check.
Dynair at Sky Harbor.
I noticed that it had a redundant control system using hand cranks & cables!
I don't remember how complete the control would be but I thought to myself "flying a very large airframe like this must be a real chore"! Not sure if the -300 still had this system but it would have been tough. Never had the chance!😓
Years later I was invited to tour the latest Goodyear blimp (at the time). One thing I noticed is that they still use the cable system but on the exterior.
Thanks guys on the ground crew at Glendale airport!😊👍
Geez, this kind of training would be done in simulators nowadays, right?
Absolutely - far safer and far cheaper - a win all-round.
@@peterlovett5841 Agree completely.
Of course, back then, simulators were not very good. It was obvious from the start that you were not in a a real plane. Plus, there was a lot of stuff they could not simulate back then that they can now.
They could not simulate Hillary Clinton cackling around in her broomstick
Absolutely. Cheaper and much safer
@@stuartlee6622 why are you turning ths into a political debate?
Wow top of the line well done Thank you.
707's kicked supreme arse, they were ahead of their time and virtually all aircraft these days take certain features of the 707 in their design even to this day.
davidca96 said, "707's kicked supreme arse, they were ahead of their time ..."
-----------------------
Bob Greene--
Except Boeing flight manuals, which are a matter of life and death, but too frequently kick nothing but the figurative "can" down the road until the next accident-based revision. Such fatally erroneous instruction to crew should have been caught before publication-- this was an "editor- detectable" issue.
@@bobgreene2892 : Agreed. "Shut down all hydraulic pumps" -- yeah, *_that_* sounds like a good idea! What could go wrong?
@@bobgreene2892 Hi Bob, yes the procedures certainly needed changing.
May I ask if you'll do a future video of 5 or more amazing facts about the Boeing 727?
RIP...My uncle worked for TWA for 25yrs he walked into work one morning in 2001 and security escorted him to his locker had him clear out his stuff and walked him to the curb along with the rest of the employees retirement pension etc all gone ...To bad carl icahn wasnt on that plane instead of those fine people
4:40 When a simulated emergency becomes a real emergency.
Right!
4:41 it is
Looks like they failed the test.
Gina Bench This emergency wasn’t part of the test and the pilots had conveyed to ATC that they were having actual problems with the aircraft.
Furthermore, your comment is not funny, 3 pilots and 5 crew members were killed.I bet you’re a hoot at parties.
On every one of these videos, when they crash, im hoping that somehow they all survive but its astounding how many times it says ALL ON BOARD DIED!! And then sometimes people on the ground die too. sad.
Great video, was looking forward to this! Maybe one time you could upload Cargolux Flight 7933 or Luxair Flight 9642. Thanks!
Wow, great vid!
While in the USAF (1975 - 1980) I was assigned to a KC-135 Flight Simulator. The KC-135 is used for air refueling. It is very closely related to the Boeing 707 civilian aircraft. For about 4 years I observed hundreds of simulated "missions" and saw a surprising number of ways the crew can crash the simulator. I became a big believer in the value of flight simulation. The simulator itself became operational in the late 1950's or early 1960's. I wonder if the civilians in this story had access to a 707 simulator?
Those poor guys.
I am no pilot (it was my dream job when I was a little boy), but as soon as I heard "all pumps off", I knew it did not sound right and could lead to something bad. Knowing how you need hydraulics to control an aircraft
Pumps Off is the proper action with every airplane I’ve flown when you experience a loss of hydraulic fluid. This is a proper immediate action, a MEMORY ITEM that pilots are taught to do without reference to the EMERGENCY CHECKLIST. It is done to not lose all your hydraulic fluid. In the case of the accident airplane they had already lost all their fluid so turning the pumps off didn’t help or hurt since the hydraulic system is dead without fluid.
Did anyone else jump/scare when it crashed? I didn't have enuf time to discern the ground before the crash.
Was very unexpected
I didn't, I kinda' did see it coming, they started the go-around procedure at under 500 Feet, gear down, flaps at max and on 3 engine, the plane didn't have too much wiggle room I guess. They didn't even advanced engine four's throttle, just turned off all hydraulics. If they had no horizontal movement just falling, they've reached the ground in 5 seconds from that altitude, add their horizontal speed, lift etc. to the equation, you may gain few extra seconds but that wasn't enough as we saw it.
Yes, this impact was completely more of a surprise then some. I can only imagine then how it might’ve been for the crew members that weren’t on the cockpit. 😢
Yes!!!!
muckerwood at 500 ft agl the pilots didn’t have much time either.
THANK YOU
Scary! Thanks!
5:07- Captain- "All pumps off"............yeah what could possibly go wrong?
After watched the last vídeo, the crash on this one "caught" me by surprise.
MrCapi55 Yep. I flinched pretty hard. I can only imagine the reactions of the five crew members.
It is fascinating that the Hoomans so reverie life that they PRACTICE “flying in the face of danger”. This is unique and wonderful and sometimes a little sad.
In my lifetime it's HARD for me to imagine the 707 as a civilian airliner because I will ALWAYS remember it best as a military platform for the AWACS, JSTAR Rivet Joint reconnaissance platform, the KC-135 tanker as well as as Air Force One and Two.
Yes, they are a pig loaded with fuel. I remember them rattling my head during fueling ops from Pope. The Chair Farce was always polite enough to give us a ride to the DZ. lol
I've got that same reaction I guess from 20+ yrs AF.
God bless you for your service!!! :) HEAR HEAR!!!
Always learning, always improving. Hasn’t changed, has it?
Funny how the check pilot told the flying pilot what to expect........in all the check rides, proficiency checks, etc. that I've been through, not once did anyone tell me what they were going to do. They just did it and expected me to deal with it.
Also, in a plane that size, I seriously doubt that I'd kill all hydraulic pumps, especially with the #4 engine set to zero thrust. Without hydraulic assist and asymmetrical thrust, the plane would not be flyable. There's no way you could push the rudder pedals hard enough to operate a rudder that size without hydraulic assist.
I might consider killing all pumps if I could bring #4 back up or set #1 to zero thrust, that would eliminate the asymmetrical thrust issue and the plane might be flyable but it'd be a royal bear to operate the elevator without hydraulics. If however, the elevator was electrical assist, then you'd be fine with no hydraulics. I don't know which configuration the 707 is.
The rudder is hydraulically assisted, which allows a 25-degree angle, versus a 13-degree. The ailerons and elevator are good ole cable and pulley systems, with anti-balance tabs.
Just drop the RAT and bring back power on #4.
@@hadavisjr weren't they hydraulically boosted or anything?
@@natural-born_pilot No RAT, but they could've (and should've) pulled back #1 and advanced 2 & 3. Or....just clean up from the simulated emergency. Sad...so sad.
That would have have been the norm, but we know at that altitude and airspeed there was no time to troubleshoot and correct.
Allec thanks from my reqwesst you are the best
The airplane had nothing wrong with it that would cause a crash. As stated in other comments, only the rudder boost is hydraulic, everything else is cable (tabs and aerodynamic balance panels). The only problem might have been loss of hydraulic brakes which would have necessitated using the air brakes. The pilots were looking at check lists instead of flying the airplane.
Actually that’s incorrect. Had they followed it, means to recover the aircraft was within the checklist. However they only did the very first item on the checklist, which was to shut off the pumps. Had they continued the checklist fully they would have seen the command to correct any thrust asymmetry if possible. At that point had they brought #4 back to full power the aircraft would have centered itself, making use of the backup manual rudder control possible. That would have corrected the right side roll which progressed to near vertical which resulted in the loss of lift. Instead, after they did step 1 which was to shut off the pumps, they were engrossed in discussion over the landing gear. Had they continued to follow the checklist promptly they would have regained sufficient roll and directional control to complete the approach and landing.
@@kcindc5539 Fact: "The airplane had nothing wrong with it that would cause a crash". Maintaining directional control by moderating thrust asymmetry goes back to basic student multi engine training. A checklist is not meant to be a substitute for flying the airplane.
Question for Pilots. Don't the Hydraulic Systems on these Planes have a Low Pressure Alarm ? One for each System ? I was on a Flight from Aruba to Kennedy Airport some years ago. After takeoff I heard the all too familiar whine of the Landing Gear Hydraulic Pumps as the gear were being raised. After a few minutes I realized the sound had not stopped. I pushed the help button for the Stewardess. After she asked if I needed something...........I stated that I was at one time an F-16 systems Calibrator while in the Air Force and that the Hydraulic Motor for the Landing Gear was still running for longer than I believed it should. ( They usually shut off after the Landing Gear doors are all in the Closed position. ) Can you please ask him to check the system , Thank You. Approximately 30 seconds after entering the cockpit the sound stopped. The Stewardess returned and smiled and said Thank You. I than quickly said......." Make sure he remembers to turn it back on before we land. She said she would...and again smiled and said Thanks.
There is a warning light that comes on when pressure drops below a specified level. On larger aircraft, several warning lights will illuminate.
All Boing airliners back to the 707 have three positions for the landing gear lever. DOWN, UP, and OFF. Normally move it from DOWN to UP after takeoff then move it the center Position OFF which removes the up pressure and allows the landing gear to rest on the Uplocks.
Did you do another previous video on a training flight crashing allec? I swear I've seen it on here before but forgot the name of it.
Can’t help but feel that they were so busy trying to diagnose the problem that they forgot to fly the plane..poor guys.
Deadly procedure indeed so i couldn’t agree more with you
This shows just how easily things can go wrong. The pilot had in excess of 25,000 hours experience, but because he was given the incorrect information in training regarding hydraulics failure; it cost 5 people their lives. The trainer's mistakes may not have been intentional, but they still happened and 5 people died as a result.
I have one you’d be interested in: American Airlines Flight 514, a training flight with a 707 like this in ‘59, crashed in Long Island, first ever loss of a 707
Do you know the FAA determination?
@@bobgreene2892 I believe no hazard with conditions
Perhaps that may have been the acft. that crashed during a 2 engine out training/check flight. The TWA lost the rudder hydraulic system during the approach. The senior pilot being checked asked for the engine back. The instructor wanted to finish the maneuver. Manual rudder was not enough to maintain heading. The #3 engine lost intake, compressor stalled; the acft flipped upside down.
Excellent !!!
John Crowley hello
what exactly did they think would happen if and when they turned all hydraulic pumps off in flight?...as it is, it looks like they check-listed right into the ground
Right 😳
manuelkong10 - they unwisely trusted the Boeing issued checklist.
FAA complicit even back then.
I enjoy your videos and I appreciate the amount of work it has taken you to produce this. But, I found the text difficult to read. Thank you for these videos.
I
Was a Navy Pilot ‐ 3 Orion Flight Engineer for 23 years with 20,256 Flight Hours, and it seems that nearly every major malfunction or inflight emergency costs lives before the higher ups can make a procedure to handle the problem.
Allec, what are the chances you could do one about the crash in December 1995 in Concord California at the Sun Valley Mall? Unless you already have and I did not see it.
The more immediate fix would have been to pull the power back on #1 Engine. Power comes off almost instantly but increasing power on an engine at idle or close to idle can be slow to accelerate. If you cannot keep the airplane straight with rudder you are dead. That is tue for the B707 or a Cessna 310. The only option is to reduce the power on the opposite engine. The accident report said the VMCA was 185 Kts with an unpowered rudder. I’m not familiar with the 707 but I’m sure there was a standby system to recover the powered rudder. They never had a chance to run that checklist. The fact they followed the loss of hydraulic quantity check list by doing th memory item of turning off the pumps had nothing to do with the accident. The reason they lost rudder power was the hydraulic quantity went to 0 and without hydraulic fluid you cannot have hydraulic pressure pumps ON or OFF.
I correct my last statement about not having hydraulic pressure with pumps on or off. Carefully reading the report I see due to location of the actual leak of hydraulic fluid was in a second hydraulic system. The Rudder would have remained powered with the pumps on although the crew’s emergency check list called for turning the pumps off. Boing had previously changed the procedure to not always turn the pumps off. That change never made it to the checklist. The report also mentions the reduction of the opposite engine to maintain directional which was in the TWA Instructors Handbook.
jeez .... had Headphones on. scared the sh*t out me on the crash
Allec, what is the music track you use at the end of this video? It's hauntingly beautiful.
@Skull_n _Bones80 I used Siri AND Shazam and they never gave the same answer twice and were never correct. In other words, they are STUMPED!
I'm surprised that they lost all hydraulic systems simultaneously, totally and so abruptly. No one noticed a drop in hydraulic pressure? There was no alarm?
hydraulics was lost when THEM turn all hyd switches to OFF , lame procedure
@@titirios1 No, it was not. Hydraulic systems don’t work without hydraulic fluid and depending on what failed you can lose the whole system at the blink of the eye.
Allec Did you live in davao
Again, the smallest mishap can be deadly. Why I no longer fly. A mechanical issue, pilot error, and that's it.
So you must not drive either
Dumbass, do you even step out of your cave, either?
@@africanfartingfrog
When is driving comparable to flying an aircraft?
Way more responsibility. Go sit down.
@@RRansomSmith I believe he was implying that driving is thousands of times more dangerous than flying.
Until I started watching these videos, I had no clue how many commercial planes crash. Planes are fabulous machines but so dangerous and unpredictable.
Airplanes are rarely unpredictable...you do the right thing in an emergency, 99% of the time you live. Lack of training, and more so lack of knowledge is what dooms some flights, not lack of predictability. In this case, Boeing released a "revised procedure" that would have saved this flight...The plane is predictable...the humans not always...
That's a good point.
Betcha Boeing changed its mind real quick about making that new procedure about dealing with hydraulic leaks not being mandatory after this crash.
MAY GOD BLESS THEM !
@Emmett Temple FUCK YOU ASS HOLE.
@Emmett Temple FUCK YOU ASS HOLE.
Allec I like this song
Love your vids look forward to each new one👍
how very sad that the pilots and crew died during a training exercise
This is why today we have fligh simulators....that training was insane.
This is why in modern day we have simulators. You dont need to be out there creating emergency conditions for practice in a real plane where people can die
Leon is correct; engine no 4 should have been used to create enough thrust to overcome the drag of gear and flaps. That might have saved their day.
yikes world airlines flew me to beautiful Vietnam 🇻🇳 in 1969.
While flying, these extremely experienced pilots, along w/ the checkride instructor stopped all hydraulics? It was a simulation! Wow. Just shows Fate is the Hunter
Martha Vaughan The video made clear that was the first step of the procedure at the time, hence the title of the video.
I nearly forgot this existed
So crazy,when pilots have problem, they must start to read the manuel book.
Only those who are limited to Spanish.
Why do they do subtitle in white....can't read it as it blends in with the picture!
Why on earth would the checklist say all pumps off. Did Boeing realise this would effectively paralyse the plane. Or was this one of those procedures that would have been safe at cruise altitude
Most aviation procedures and legislation are written in blood. Don't forget that aviation has had several new eras in its history and the 1960s was essentially the new era of jet transport aircraft. What worked in the previous piston engine era wasn't always going to work in the jets and sometimes it took time to realise this because it wasn't obvious at first.
The other problem here is that the crew didn't restore power to engine #4 first. If they had then switching all the pumps off would not have been a problem. Boeing wrote its checklist on the basis that you had all 4 burning. Obviously, the problem had reared its head before which is why they re-wrote the checklist but it wasn't mandatory to implement it so TWA decided to keep going with the procedures they had. It was up to the FAA to make it mandatory and they have a history of not doing so until there has been a fatality.
@@peterlovett5841 That explains why the NTSB kicked the butt of the FAA more than in one accident report.
@@peterlovett5841 - Manuals can't be written to address multiple problems occurring simultaneously. They would be too cumbersome.
@@julosx The NTSB has never kicked anyone's butt. They work for the FAA and the FAA has final authority.
@@marks6663 The NTSB and FAA are separate entities. There is no connection between them and the NTSB has at time been severely critical of the FAA but it is up to the FAA to amend legislation or mandate procedure.
So sad! A whole lot of experience went down that day. Wonder why the FAA didn’t make the change mandatory.
gomphrena that then would require an AD,,,, Aviation Directive, usually within a certain timeframe,,,,,,, Cheers from NJ
Leighton Samms • Well hello yourself, Mr. Samms from Joisey. Good to see you. For what it’s worth, “AD” in my Nursing nomenclature is Advance Directives - none other than a good old Living Will. That said, I certainly hope the fellows depicted here had more substantive wills drawn up!
gomphrena I was a nurse when those were new, and taught staff for years on the ‘new’ forms. So many acronyms in so many areas with differing meanings are confusing. But I agree that airplane manufacturers and carriers need more of a stick than a carrot to fix such equipment and training defects.
@@flybyairplane3528- So the rules basically say that even if you know that this should be mandatory it's too difficult to make it so in a short time frame. Seems like that rule should be adjusted but I don't know what the unintended consequences of that might be.
When they said 5 year old Boeing,....I knew
Just curious: If aircraft should land/takeoff into the prevailing wind, why did this one land on 13 but do a 180 to take off in the opposite direction?
I was thinking that but I assumed it was a calm day, no wind
All commercial aircraft I've flown have had a 10 or 15 knot maximum tailwind component for takeoff and landing, other performance issues allowing. I started on Boeings with the B-727 though, so if there are people here with B-707 experience I'd be interested to know. I'm sure you can figure out the wind component for 13/31 from the meteorology section of the NTSB report; I saw it linked earlier in the discussion somewhere.
27+ hours!expert