Electric Car Batteries - Only Using 20% to 80%
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2023
- I get told that it's really bad to use your electric cars battery beyond the 20-80% barriers. This isn't really the case.
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Also this varies by battery type. the Tesla Model 3 owners manual states that "If your vehicle is equipped with an LFP Battery, Tesla recommends that you keep your charge limit set to 100%, even for daily use, and that you also fully charge to 100% at least once per week."
For me the cheap overnight 4 hours will add about 55% so I typically run it down to under 30% before plugging it in. When I know I'm going to do a long distance I will make sure I charge to 100%, it pointless to set off with only a partial charge.
This is the same approach I take with my LFP model 3.
LFP and full charge to 100% is because BMS doesn't "know" SOC. It guest (calculate) from Voltage of battery. LFP have a very flat line of voltage and it makes calculating SOC harder. When cell is on 4,2 volt on 100% it's recalculate true 100%. And when it's doing that it can balance cell from eg. 4,1 4,15 4,08 to all have 4,2. It's only reason why you need sometime change to 100%. Every day use if you are in range of 80%-20% use that. 100% once per 6 months should be good.
For LFP it's recommended to recharge to 100% SOC regularly. It's better for that type of battery, according to manufacturers. We have an LFP home battery and it's recharged to 100% almost every night. The low end buffer is 4%.SOC. After about 400 nightly recharges to 100%, so far, we cannot discern any degradation of the two batteries. If they were Li-Ion batteries, I would set the inverters to limit the recharges to around 80% to 85% except for when we expect to need more of the storage capacity during the next day.
I've flown model planes that use lipos for over 20 years and only really killed batteries at the start because,
A, the batteries were not very good back then
B, I didn't know how to use them and was leaving them fully charged all the time and flying them down to empty every time, this killed them in around 30 cycles.
Once I understood the storage thing and not flying down to empty every time things improved a LOT and batteries also got better, now I have a ton of batteries that are very old and have many many cycles on them but are perfectly fine,
I still occationally fly down to empty by mistake and sometimes charge fully thinking I'll go flying but dont end up going right away but as long as I'm not doing that every time its fine.
I think dealers should get better education if they are dishing out stupid advice like they gave you, print out a card with how to use a battery and give it to every customer maybe an idea.
You are exactly right in your approach, simple common sense...
Those are Lipo batteries so the chemistry is slightly different but yes I fly model stuff of all types too and 100% agree.
I love your no-nonsense videos and the knowledge and advice in them. Likewise, I got next no advice from the dealer who on handover was pretty clueless about setting everything up on my MG4. Just glad I’d spent the previous 6 months watching every RUclips video I could find about it.
I plug my car in to use the energy from my solar system. Today it has charged “gently” to 100%. By doing it this way the guessometer always gives me more available miles than even the overnight 7kw charge. It’s always been like this from new, now two years old and actual miles exceeds the manufacturer’s quote for the MG5 of 214 at this time of year! Similar results if using the granny charger. The battery seems to like gentle rather than being force fed! Keep up the great work!
Ah yes, the BS of the uninformed.
We tend to keep our battery between 20% and 80% for normal use but I will happily bang in 100%, especially when charging on cheap juice overnight if we are going on a longer journey the next day.
We've had it below 10% once as well. Shock, horror !!!
A worthwhile video because it's something which I often see coming up on user forums. One thing though battery chemistry also matters and while with traditional Li-Ion 80% is a helpful discipline LFP is happy daily charging to 100%. Dealers as you rightly say ought to be better sources of good information.
I have replied to many such questions asked by newbies to the EV world of motoring on the MGEV Forum for example and many people pile in with conviction on what you absolutely Must or Must-Not do, and while there is so much disinformation from the dealers, EV owners aren't getting the best experience from the cars they spent a lot of money on plus many others are being discouraged until they can buy a car with 500 or 600-mile range only using 80% down to 20% of their EV's battery.
Early 44 kWh MG ZS EV didn't have any of battery percentage indication and my dealer told me I should just charge it to 100% every time and not worry because MG had taken care of all that with the battery buffer. This was not really true as proven but the 2nd Gen cars which did have battery percentage indication and the 64 kWh Li-Ion equipped cars had a screen similar to what you showed in your Tesla indicating 80% Daily and 100% Trip with the ability to set a charge limit. Then MG confused everyone when they introduced a 51kWh ZS equipped with LFP chemistry and the same 80% Daily / 100% trip screen however they disabled the facility to limit the charge because charging to 100% is preferred with an LFP as it improves the accuracy of the State of Charge (SOC) calibration of the Battery Management System (BMS). Advice for Tesla on LFP-equipped newer Standard Range is also to charge to 100%.
Very well explained and good follow up video. I charge to 100% as and when required, which isn’t too often.
Thank you for this! I have a 2023 Crosstrek PHEV and I typically charge it to what looks like ~97%. I know that they have a buffer on the battery as well, so it is definitely less than what I think it is. I was looking for this type of information for a while actually. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Battery chemistry also matters. LFP batteries like to be charged to 100%, hence why they are in the smaller range models
That's not quite true. The voltage difference between 0 and 100% is so small on LFP batteries, like 0.2V that the only way to calibrate it is to charge it to 100% so it knows what 100% is. NMaC batteries have something like a 3 - 4.2v range between 0-100% The NMaC battery left at 4.2V (100%) degrades the battery prematurely. The LFP battery at 100% is about 3.5v so doesn't degrade the battery as the voltage difference isnt as high. LFP cycle life is probably 6000 before dropping to 80%. NMaC should be >2000 if kept in a 20-80% and with a few hours a week going outside that range.
Phones are often next to a hot processor, and charged to 100% and left at that for hours - both aren't good. Car batteries (apart from the Nissan Leafs) are liquid cooled (and heated sometimes) to keep them around 10-25C. Extended period about 35C is bad for them too (Leafs left in the sun in Arizona were getting to 50C+ and degrading quicker than expected). Teslas "pre-conditioning the battery for charging" heats it to 30C approx, the charging itself then heats it as hot as 55C but then rapidly cool it back down again after charging. I'm a little suspicious that this pre-conditioning is always necessary. Sometimes I only want a 5 minute / 30 mile boost to get home. I don't want energy wasted heating the battery to charge quicker, or a battery heated up unnecessarily.
LFP batteries are not used in long range evs because of their low energy density. There is not enough space to fit a long range battery in most cars.
I don’t see LFP batteries in performance models either, Cobalt is the “turbo” part of the battery.
Need to charge to 100% once per week for LFP according to Tesla.
@@Kiwidaedongso according to you, a 330mile LFP Model3 would be... impossible 🤔 (please see the USA Tesla configurator)
Yet another sensible video from EVM. I've charged my MG5 to full a lot of times and for 4 hours cheap rate overnight. After 25k miles the range is exactly the same as when it was new 15 months ago
The algorithm in the battery charging control in the vehicle gradually eats into that 20 and 80% buffer to maintain the range. It does not mean that your battery is not degrading, it means that the vehicles system is compensating for the battery degradation...
I bought an ioniq 38kw which states 193 miles on a full charge. As I am retired and do less than 150 miles a week this 20 to 80 suits me perfectly. If I go on an occasional longer trip I charge to 100% so I use as less public charging as possible. 11p per Kw at home is better than 79p per Kw on public chargers.
Same here, I have a 2020 38kW Ioniq and it is around 215 miles at 100% in warm weather (~195 in cold)... typically I charge it to 80% but I'll top it up to 100% if I know I'm doing more than 20 miles the next day. I rarely use a DC charger though :)
My car has used fast chargers only 10 times in 3 years. I've had the car since Oct and 5 of those were me just trying them out. Always manage on 3 pin granny charger to 100%then drive until the next weekend charge. My car is also ioniq 38kwh
I have a 28kWh Ioniq. Charging at home my range is about 135 miles. I think it has a bit of battery in unuseable reserve. On a long journey, when I am out, the car charges up to 95%. That takes about half an hour and is fine for a break after a couple of hours driving anyway. As the range is relatively low I do tend to use 15-95% of the indicated battery charge in practice.
I think A LOT of people over estimate how many miles they do a week.
Also a 38kW 2020 Ioniq owner. Weekly out-and-about and commuting rarely exceeds 120 miles so keep it within 20-80 which is fine (165 @ 80%). If I have a long trip coming up, I'll charge it to 100% the night before I need it and then rapid charge en route (if needed) but only to 80% for the reasons EVM stated.
Thanks EVM, all grist to the mill. I've owned a Kia e-Niro from new since March 2019. The manual says that if you don't need to charge it to 100% for your use case then they recommend you doing that once a month. This is to give the BMS a chance to look at the max voltage levels across all the cells, there are 294 cells in the 64 kWh e-Niro. But of course the real size of the battery is 67.5 kWh so as the battery ages the BMS can detect a weak cell, drop it out of the available pack (64KWh) and increase the voltage slightly on the other 293 cells to maintain the useable battery. As EVM man says, the BMS maintains floor and ceiling buffers. The floor buffer is to make sure the cells never get to zero volts which would do big damage to the pack, the ceiling buffer allows the BMS to maintain the overall capacity of the pack. My use case is covered by plugging in once a week and charging to 80% but of course for a long trip I charge to 100% before leaving then do as you suggest, only charge to 80% on public rapid chargers en route, it just isn't worth hanging around to add more. When coming home from a long trip once I did get as low as 7% but when you get home you just plug in of course. There's a lot of talk about the relative merits of NMC and LFP in terms of battery longevity but for all practical purposes it doesn't matter. Even if I charged to 100% every time on my NMC pack and went
Usually charge to 80% unless I',m going on the long journey then I charge to 100%. The only exception to this is if I have to visit one of my work offices then I only charge to what I know I need as charging at work is free and I usually end up leaving with 100% charge. This means I get home with more charge than I left with.
Really interesting ! Thanks !
In 2019 I went to a Jaguar dealer to look at an I Pace. When I told him that three times a week I drove 250+ miles he told me that I was looking at the wrong type of car because the range of the I Pace was really only about 120 miles in “real world usage”. His reasoning was that due to the time taken to charge from 80 to 100% was so long that I would not want to wait around to charge to 100%. He also said that due to the unreliability of the UK charging network he didn’t recommend going below 20% unless I could guarantee a charge point that worked at in that last 20%. This gave me a useable range of 60% or 156 miles on the official test. Or as he put it, 120 miles in the real world.
Needless to say I didn’t buy it.
Great video! We charged our 2023 Kona EV to 100% everytime we charged at home, DCFC not so much but that was just time management and charging to what we needed. We put 48,000 km on that car in 10 months and 0 noticeable battery capacity or range loss. We have now taken delivery of our Ioniq5 AWD Ultimate trim with 77kwh battery and treat it exactly the same. Likely looking at keeping this car for many, many years!
No fear about capping at 80%, when charged to 100% the car does not sit, it gets driven....lots. Never go back to an ICE vehicle, still own a couple that rarely get driven anymore (except for our MGB & MGC)
Mike
ruclips.net/video/URi4JNq6zY8/видео.html
I have a 2021 Tesla M3 SR+ the Tesla App states to charge once a week to 100% it's simple enough to follow the instructions (if the manufacturer supplies them) I use mine like a car, fuel as and when required + once per week charge to 100% - people do like to over complicate things or find another way to try and berate EV's and their owners or supporters. We can always rely on you to get the truth out their. Keep up the good work 🙂
Thanks, Andy. All good stuff. There's far too much FUD being sown by anti-EV types. A sensible reasoning like yours is a great help in resetting the balance.
Dr. Evan McTurk also explained things very well, with a few more technical details, in a recent video on Nicolas Raimo's YT channel.
This topic honestly comes up almost daily in the various FB EV groups I'm a member of, at least from new owners - it's astounding the level of mis-information that they leave their dealership with.
So, yes - absolutely agree with you that dealer sales staff need to be MUCH better trained in their knowledge of EVs.
One aspect of your video which might've been useful to have added, especially in light of the current state of the charging infrastructure network.
Planning to stop at an on route public rapid charger at 20% battery level is probably quite sensible right now - that way, you'll at least have plenty of remaining mileage left in the battery for you to be able to drive away from the ever-increasing number of off-line / faulty / busy chargers to find one that actually works / is available...!!
Good information mate
The other factor in that is the fact that for most EV that's the SOC where the fastest charging lies. Added to that is that, for many its seen as very bad manners to go to 100% on public chargers as you are seen to be hogging the charger for a prolonged period because 100% is not seen as necessary for most trips.
I agree, and generally only go near 100% at home. I favour using the granny cable to use sunlight and domestic battery power to dribble the last few percent, but it does take 'luck and judgement'.
Well said! Maybe do a second video about how a battery pack consists of many cells that vary in voltage and that determines its percentage charge.
First the 80% rule is don’t charge past that point on a rapid charger but the car won’t let you as you know the car throttles the charge back at about that point and as the percentage increase it gets slower and slower. Our Scottish professor friend did a video sometime ago on this very subject and he said pretty much what you say. And he did say you should charge to 100% periodically to help balance the the pack. You can do more damage by leaving it at a really low state of charge for any length of time because the battery naturally discharges and can go into the bottom buffer. I run with my car between 18 to 20 % to 90% but I have a Kia EV6 with a 75 kw battery so don’t need that 100% unless I’m going on a really long trip. But if you have something like a Honda EV running that on the 20 to 80% rule would be a joke. Good informative video.
I tend to charge almost exclusively to 100% overnight. Unless I know it will be sitting at that for a few days. I normally always use it the following morning. Run it for a few days to a week, it gets down to about 20%ish then I repeat the charge overnight again. Occasionally I’ll make use of grazing during the week to just add a bit. I don’t baby it too much. The whole of the battery is much more valuable to me NOW than loss of maybe being hit by a 5-10% SOH in 10 years, assuming I still have it.
I charge to 100% most days, Standard Range RWD Y, the display says at least charge to 100% once a week.
Did my first long distance run a couple of weeks ago, 350 mile trip to Scotland, yeah for some might not be classed as long distance, but plenty for me :) only stopped once at a super charger, was expecting to stop twice. By the time I had got a coffee and taken the dog for a pee break, the car said ready to continue journey. This was at a station with only 6 bays, so was also sharing load. Have to say, I was well impressed.
Have to agree, for most people I would say paying extra for larger battery would be throwing money away. I've now done over 5000 miles, and not once had any range anxiety, most likely due to the fact the car has pretty much 100% most mornings.. :) Although sometimes I charge to about 80% overnight if I at home next day, so that I can dump solar into it.
I agree 100% I would have also mentioned that if you charged fully, for a while you won't have your one pedal driving working properly
My charging regime was generally 100% on a rapid on the way home from work, then spend the next few days using the car as a car until the last bar on the meter (around 22%), then look for a charger.
Reasons I would alter that routine would be if I had a long trip coming up, or if I was near a free charger.
The only change now is that I've got my home charger up and running, so it's generally charged at 4kW rather than 40kW.
As mentioned, the only time you need to truly need to be between 20% and 80% is if the car won't be used for an extended period of time (weeks or months). And even then, you're more likely to need to worry about your 12v battery being knackered when you come back to it.
Might have been worth stressing the rapid chargers speed drops off a cliff after 80% and thats why you generally only go to 80% whilst on the long journey
Bigger cliff if it is cold as well
He did state that. It was like the first example of why you might not want to go to 100%.
Hello There, a great Video and thank you for sharing your perspective, but personally it’s all based on your personal usage and generally the situation is just charge for the miles you need. Cheers Peter :)
A thing that has changed is the 'battery size' shown by Nissan on their website, the 62Kwh size is now shown as 59 usable , and so on.
In my over 10 years of owning LEAFs I have always charged at home to 100% with no unexpected measurable degradation. When using rapid chargers I normally charge until the charge rate shown on the in car display starts dropping as the battery management system operates. To get from 50% to 80 % can take the time to get a cup of tea and use the Toilets , To get from 80% to 100% I could eat a full three course meal!
My Ioniq is regularly charged up to 100% each day, albeit rarely below 20.%. Now at 33000 miles it’s battery soh is at 98%. It’s actually really good from time to time to drop it down to 0% and up to 100% to help the bms ballance all the cells.
I have a 4 year old eNiro
I generally charge to between 80 & 90% and with the occasional recommended 100% to balance the pack.
I had just done the 100% charge and was driving home when I was involved in a crash. The car was picked up with around 94% charge and spent nearly 8 months off the road waiting for parts.
It was returned on ~75% SOC
Even at that the BMS still reports 100% state of health and the GOM still predicts over 300 miles on a 100% charge, but form debates around changing to 100% in owners groups I fully expected the car to come back with a wrecked battery
Hi, Thank you so much for your informative and helpful advice on all things EV. Now I am considering getting a new EV sometime, and I was interested to hear that you use an Octopus Energy EV tariff & I was wondering if this is still the case do you have a 'referral link'? As I was thinking of switching to Octopus, & whilst doing so, benefit yourself in appreciation for your videos & I to help lower my first bill.
I have done 56,000 miles in 18 months in my EV Van.
I charge to 100% every night at home (7kW) and use as much of the battery as I can to get me home (down to 1-5%).
I rapid charge regularly and stay on the charger until the charge “throttles” (around 86%) and to date I haven’t seen any noticeable degradation in the battery.
Just use the battery to its fullest and stop worrying about degradation and all the scaremongering.
Different battery chemistries will respond much better, or much worse, to how you’re treating your battery pack. So your advice could work far, far worse for someone else. For example if yours was an LFP chemistry and someone else’s was an NMC chemistry pack, as one of many possible examples. Then there’s also how truthful your battery health is being reported, as some BMSs keep a chunk of the battery in reserve and slowly unlock it as the battery degrades, so that degradation Isn’t obvious to the user during the warranty period.
It’s not about fear-mongering, it’s about educating people to best practices so that they can do those best practices that are convenient to them.
Not long ago every BEV car advert said 'charges to 80% in X hours'.... They hoped that potential buyers would think, 'so it would take 20% longer to fully charge' - but li-Ion charge curve is like a hockey stick and flattens out for the last 20%, so the last 20% may take 50% longer...
100% correct.
10 years using the same battery in the iPad mini doing the 80/50 80/20 rule. 85% total capacity.
It works
It's actually quite simple: in everyday use you hardly ever need more than 50 miles range, that's when you try to keep it in the 20-80 range. The few times you go on a long trip, you use the full battery capacity. Same with rapid charging, you only really need it on long trips.
Rubbish I work from home and only use a car for longer trips usually 100 miles upwards. My last big trip was around 220 each way and no way I would want an EV for that.
@@davidlewis4399It sounds like you have “special needs” so yes you are probably better off not using an EV.
@@davidlewis4399haha...the day after we took delivery of our Ioniq5 my wife and I did a lunch run...650 km round trip! What's to fear about an electric car? Nothing "rubbish" about it mate!
Have a nice day!
Mike
Mini S E owner’s manual says it’s ok to go to 100%, but that is in reality 98% charged as there is a 2% top buffer AND a very clever BMS. On a 50kW charger it will take 28 minutes from 20-80% of its 289kW battery and another 30 minutes to go from 85-100% - I rarely use public fast chargers and charge at home to 100% every time on 7kW or 2.5 if using my solar panel excess generation.
I’ve owned my VW e-Golf for a couple of years. Never run out battery power until yesterday. But, it was the 12v battery that ran out at traffic lights on a busy main road. Now the main vehicle battery indicated I had 24miles left (it doesn’t give percentage) which was more than enough to get home, but I was stranded. Called the RAC who attended within the hour. Now as it happened that hour was long enough for the main battery to charge the 12volt battery. So the RAC mechanic didn’t need to do anything except test the battery, it showed full charge. Have you ever heard of that situation before?
I have an Ioniq 5 and always charge to 100% which will typically last me for around 4 weeks. I then Charge it again to 100%.. Never had any problems at all. The dealership did say that batteries these days are built to be charged to 100% if that's what you want. I am currently waiting for my new Ioniq 6 that has just landed at Tilbury Docks and I will do exactly the same with that.
LfP you want to go to fill fairly frequently to ensure the pack stays balanced
Had an Nissan ENV200 for just over 3 years. Always charged to 100% due to the small 40Kwh battery and it shows no sign of battery degradation. I think people often get confused with battery tech because they see its good for say 1000 cycles and assume that if you charge it up a 1000 times its dead. The reality is that if you only ever used 50 percent of the charge per day then potentially you might get 2000 cycles out of that battery before it starts to show noticeable degradation. I have LIFEPO4 battery storage indoors and they can have 3000-4000 cycles before they start to die and when you put that in terms of days and amount of actual discharge per day it means they can potentially go on for decades. When my Cupra Born arrives i will be charging it to 100% and i wont worry about it, the BMS is sophisticated and will do its best to look after the battery.
I treat our EV6 exactly like you say. Typically leave the EV between 20% and 80% for most if the time, but when I do long distance trip or when towing our Erica, we go to 100%. On public charging I’ll only charge over 80% if the the site is quiet, I’m enjoying a brew and sandwich, in no rush, or I absolutely need it.
As you say, it's leaving the car standing for a long time outside the 20%/80% zone which appears to be the problem, not dipping into these zones. My regular pre commute charge is 80%+ what I need to get to the destination, so I depart with more than 80%, but when I arrive I can leave it standing at 80%.
This. It's the extended period of time that's the big issue. Leaving it low could result in some 12v battery issues as it may not be able to charge it under a certain percentage.
My Tesla Model 3 RWD has the LFP battery. It doesn’t have the ‘daily’ and ‘trip’ graphic on the battery charge screen. The manual also says charge the LFP battery to 100% at least once a week.
Many years ago I converted a car to electric and really got into battery technology.... Starting with milk floats! I know that 'exercising the battery' is a really good idea to prolong battery life.
I charge my EV6 up to only 80% but never let it go below 30% before I put it on my 7kw home charger. The only time I've charged to 100% was before going on a 230 mile trip. This has worked for me.
The Renault Zoe (first gen) I drove for 120.000km hasn't shown any noticable battery degradation. I used it 5 days a week and charged it full every day.
What do most of the car guarantees and warranties have to say on battery usage / abuse? Do they state the maximum discharge percentage before your warranty is void etc?
I charge my Enyaq 60 to 100% once a week for a round trip of 130ish miles. I typically arrive home with 30% battery but I like having that extra capacity just in case. Otherwise it is charged to 80% unless the solar is good, as it is today, when I use put the additional energy into my car rather then exporting it to the grid.
I have also wondered if the 'buffers' are used to give the appearance of better longevity? If they are worth say 10% at bottom and 10% at top that's an extra 10% that could be added to 'health' as the battery degrades?
Staff are same with any vehicle. A sale is a sale is a sale... Attitude as always from the top...
2019 Jaguar i pace owner. Charge to 100% all the time but i rarely need to use fast chargers. 35k miles later, real world range is 220-240 miles. I cant notice any sign of battery degradation yet. Seems to be the same as when brand new.
Ive never it worry me , i did 50k miles in my first 22kwh Zoe and always charged to 100% at home .... No discernible effect on the car ... Like wise my next Zoe and my latest Kona. I think Tesla started this when they started getting problems on some of their early cars which had battery degredation issues when consistently charged on Superchargers to 100% ...... Thats whem Mr Musk started advising 80% .... I dont think this is such an issue now with new cars. Good advice EVM!
As I understand it the 80-20% regime is very important for a battery with LI-NMC chemistry but less so for LFP and indeed Tesla advise fully charging their LFP batteries at least once a week.
I charge my i3 up to 100% every time I charge it. It does not stay at 100% as I use it the next day. After 19000 miles I have noticed no decrease in range, in fact I think my range has increased. I get 200 miles range most days.
Yes; BMW specifically say to leave it plugged in and charge to 100% - gives it chance to do the cell re-balancing regularly. Mine is plugged in to charge up to 100% every night; after 7 years I can't perceive any degredation.
ruclips.net/video/URi4JNq6zY8/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/kMh8Ie--X8E/видео.html
I’m all about getting as much free solar in the car as possible. So if it’s sunny and I haven’t been anywhere then up to 100% it goes! I also charge to 100 the night before long journeys because public charging is EXPENSIVE! 69p on Gridserve on Wednesday.. nearly 10x my off peak rate..
The 80-20 thing is really just the BEV equivalent of not reviving an engine over 3000 rpm until it is warm / labouring or revving the tits off an engine generally. Doesn’t hurt if you do these things occasionally.
The other week I charged to 100%, left it several hours, drove to Southampton for a holiday, left it at 49% for a week then drove home. Stopped for 5 minutes at a rapid charger to add 10% as was only just possible do it in one and got home with 8%. Left it at 8% until the cheap rate kicked in. That won’t do any harm to the battery as 99% of the time I keep it in the 80 - 20% zone.
How many people with petrol cars religiously run them in when new and keep them under 3000 rpm until the oil is warm etc? It’s the same thing really.
Also, how many ICE car owners fill to overflowing and run to empty. There is always petrol in the tank that is never used.
Great analogy 👍
How to look after your Long Range Tesla Battery!
Advice from Jeff Dahn, who's lab is partnered with @Tesla: ruclips.net/video/mN91pS1hSSQ/видео.html
The key takeways of this video are:
1) Jeff's advice in the video only applies to high nickel batteries in long range vehicles! Not LFP standard range vehicles.
2) High temperatures kill batteries. If you go on a holiday/vacation during the summer, leave your vehicle at a low SOC (state of charge). For example: At or below 30% SOC
3) Cycle within a narrow SOC range. For example: 40-60% rather than 10-80%. The cathode expands and contracts in a wider SOC range, which causes it to break apart.
4) On that note: The lower the narrower the SOC range, the better. That means charging frequently.
5) Avoid charging the vehicle above 75% SOC. Above 75% side reactions start occuring that cause degradation. This also reduces the volume expansion issues mentioned in 3).
6) Taking all variables into account, operating between 45-70% SOC and storage at ~30% is ideal.
7) Occasional high SOC and wide SOC range are okay! For example, the occasional roadtrip.
8) With good thermal management hardware and battery managment software, supercharging should have minimal negative effect on cycle life.
Watch the video if you'd like more specifics! ruclips.net/video/mN91pS1hSSQ/видео.html
It's worth watching because Jeff Dahn is one of the fathers of the Lithium Ion battery and his lab is partnered with Tesla.
The manual for our Mercedes EQC actually states: "Charge the high-volt battery on average to a charge level of 80%". So this sort of statement by manufacturers will be partly responsible for everyone being fearful of charging over 80%. We have the car normally set to 90% max.
For my BMW i3 there isn't any such recommendation, and when I enquired with BMW tech support, I was told that the buffer in the car meant that there was no problem charging to 100% all the time.
Indeed it's recommended that you do charge the i3 to 100%, as that is when the cell balancing happens.
My 2023 BMW iX1 warns me when I set the charger above 100% that i should think hard, while the i4s will limit the number of high power DC charges in a day -not tested that in mine yet to see. seems like BMW are getting more cautious over time
is it necessary to charge occasionally to 100% to balance the batteries? My i3 I was told if going away on holiday, to leave it plugged in and charging. It will sort itself out.
Hyundai owners manual doesnt mention the 80-20% senario at all. I charge fully every weekend and drive until the next weekend full charge. Normally the lowest is 20% just by chance.
Hyundai 38kwh ioniq.
Mini, Don't charge it until its around 20% then plug it in to a 50kw near an M&S, Go shopping about 30 mins and when i get back its usually about 90%. I do this about once every 2 weeks.
Like wise I always charge my 2016 22kw Zoe to 100% every time I charge overnight. If I need a quick top up during the day, I use a near by public 40kw point, then I go to 80% and stop.
Definitely need to check the manufacturers instructions for the correct advice on whether to charge to 100%. I've always charged to 100% (at home), because that's what BMW says to do for my specific car. Easy as ABC - Always Be Charging. The car does automatic cell re-balancing if it's plugged in overnight when it thinks it's a good idea, but it has to be left to charge to 100%. Those using the same car but not charging to 100% all the time (e.g. those on public network charging only) see more apparent battery capacity degredation, as it never gets a chance to do the cell re-balancing. Can usually be remedied by charging to 100% and setting a departure time with hours to spare so the car knows it has some time to muck about with the battery cells and do the re-balancing.
I've had the car from new since 2016 - so seven years in and as far as I can tell no noticeable degredation so far, both from practical range experienced, and what the on-board system says about battery health. It's been on the 7kW home charger almost every single night since I bought it. However other cars (even some from BMW) do have substantially different advice.
Great video EVM
One question, once my Tesla gets to 80% at home. Is it ok to leave plugged in even if not using for a few days or should I unplug?
No need to unplug, charging will not exceed the 80% limit, per whichever limit you set.
Generally EV batteries shouldn't be stored at 100% SOC for long periods of time ideally they should be stored at 40-50% SOC . I don't consider a few days a "long period of time" but others may disagree. If your ev has an LFP battery they are different and like 100% SOC more than other chemistries but even then Tesla advises not leaving it at 100% more than 3 weeks .
After 2 years, almost 40000km and charging quite frequently up to 100% I see no degradation at all in my car and still can make the 310-320 I could on day one. But that doesn't prevent me from worrying about this kind of things, in fact only once have I ever go under 10%
Oh god, getting flash backs to all the arguments about this on the Tesla forums.
Great vid, but I have two questions: 1. I assume there is no 'cliff edge' at 20% and 80% on the charging graph ie no sudden change to a different 'power band', instead the graph must be a smooth curve with a shallower line at the ends? 2) Although it takes more time to charge above 80%, does it take more charge pro rata watt output from the charger for watt input into the car battery? I need a nerdy spreadsheet please.
1. Some cars, very few, have a cliff edge at 90% where they drop to 10kW. Most don't and is indeed a curve. Tesla charges at 40kW at 90% usually.
2. As the car charges at higher amounts the internal resistance of the battery increases, that's why it heats up. If the internal resistance increases, indeed more energy is "wasted" rather than stored. Of note when observing this is to look at the voltage of the DC charger, when starting at 10% the DC charger will be requested to provide 360ish Volts, but when reaching 90% it will be requested to provide even 420V. This is colloquially because it takes voltage difference to cram even fewer electrons in the same battery element.
@@Alex-qx7jn Thanks Alex. Great answers.
I usually go between 80 and 20% unless on long runs (120 mile max range eNV200 40kWh) That covers almost all days and I charge to 85 or 90% on motorways. I keep it down to 80% if others are waiting. A question if you have time on the channel,. When motorway driving what is the best battery temperature preparation in that kind of EV? It doesn't have much thermal management.
Not much you can do tbh.
Another misinformation busted! Loved the anology of revving to max all the time. A simple and easy to explain to the naysayers.
I use generally 80% and 100% for longer trips and on day to day running I only charge a couple of times every week, so never drop below 20%. Long trips are so different as getting to the charger with facilities is far more desireable and I am happy to use more battery to get there. Generally topping up from around 20% is done when I need a coffee, so stop, plug in , use the facilities, have coffee and cake then leave and car is usually back around 80% and I now have another 200 mile range. My Kia E Niro is now 2 and a half years old and in the summer I can still achieve the same 270 miles. This drops in winter to 220 when temps are very low with 3 adults and around 100kg of luggage and leaving the car for 2 weeks!
It does have a heat pump that helps a lot.
Interesting and informative. A little confusing, as red lining your ICE may eventually blow it up and your warranty probably will not cover that. However, because fast charging is more expensive, am interested in the time it will take to charge a battery to be full at home from empty. (Obviously, the size of the battery will make a difference but there must be a way to calculate the time). I am still troubled by people being able to charge an EV when they either do not have a driveway or live in a block of flats. Having a communal charging bay won't go down well if you leave your car on charge all night and other people then cannot use the charger and I cannot see a 10-story block of flats having 20 or 30 charging bays installed.
We need park and charge schemes, similar to park and ride. Also when they introduce the 6p a mile charge, this will reduce the number of cars on the road.
@@James-zu1ij Yes. If the WHO has its way, no one will be allowed to own a car or travel for that matter. We will all be controlled and monitored just like some dystopian films we all think are a bit far-fetched but only 20 - 30 years away.
100% down to 20% first part of trip, 80% to 20% all other legs on fast charger due to wanting to avoid the bolshy etiquette facists.
In reality though its sometimes 82%-11%. Havent let the car go below 10% because im paranoid about charger anxiety and needing some buffer to head to a backup.
So yeah, realistically i plan around 60% of the usuable range.
Nissan Ariya doesn't even have any way to limit charge by percentage. It's all time based. Nissan are happy for the battery to be charged to 100% whenever.
All makes sense- but with the current state of the U.K. charging network after finally finding a charger that works we stay on to 100% ish. Because we have to have at least 3 options for the next charger on the journey……
My 2016 i3REX (bought 2018 with 9k miles), now at 30k miles, has been charged from 5% or more to 100% at 7kw and reduced rate using the 'granny charger' ever since I got it without any range reduction. In fact there seems to be no way to set it to charge for less than 100% other than using the Octapus IO app. The rate of charge does drop for the last few percent, seen from the house smart meter display.
As most EV batteries have long warranties it seems likely that the 0-100% capacity range we see is not the actual battery capacity. The auto cut in of the REX is about 5% so I would expect that to be maybe 15% of actual capacity. The REX never gets used except after the petrol has been in for a year.
There seems to be a widespread belief that solar batteries should not be allowed to drop below 20%. Hybrid solar inverters seem to do all sorts of things to be gentle with the batteries and keep them at or above 20%.
Where would RUclips be without mass disinformation on everything?
Good explanation and is exactly right! Plus there is no betetr way to demonstrate this than by using the battery pack for V2L.
I use a Setec in the winter months to run our heating system using our Nissan Leaf, which uses from 100% down to 30% and it stops, giving you a margin to go places or charge up. So after months of this repetitive cycle the BMS started to think the battery pack has degraded down to this level, and so made the necessary adjustments within its own parramitors. This meant shorter and short cycles. This is not surprising, as it was quickly fixed by taking the car out for a run with a 100% charge and ran it down to as little as I could, or dare, 5%. Once the car charged back up again the BMS could see there was more capacity and adjusted accordingly. The car battery BMS had then recalibrated to the actual battery capacity and all was return to normal. The BMS (battery management system) adjusts to the conditions of use.
What some may not appreciate is that at 100% charge the regenerative braking will be compromised - particularly if the driver is relying on that mode of driving. Also, heavy braking with the mechanical braking system is not helping efficiency. This most likely won’t make a hugely noticeable difference, but it is there.
I find that setting the cruise control to about 52/53mph is generally adequate to keep up with traffic on most single carriageway roads - one might get overtaken by the occasional driver, but mostly one is only just behind at the next roundabout. Dual carriageway roads are a bit different, of course, but - unless in a hurry - there is not so much to gain beyond a little over 60mph. Especially if charging at home for 7.5p/kWh compared to a DC charger at an extra 50p/kWh (ie 79p/kWh of many of the current public DC charging stations).
Never heard of regen compromise - is that true of my Atto3?
@@aussieideasman8498 It will be applicable, to some degree, to every EV, when the battery is at (or very close to) 100% . All responsible drivers should be aware of this fact. How much, and for how long, will be dependent on the vehicle of course. It will not be a factor at 80% charge level, for sure.🙂
@@oliver90owner I still don't understand how it applies to any EV. My logic says that because regen energy never exceeds the power required to move the EV, there is always room to top up the battery without overcharging it. That is, a 100% charged EV must use, say 0.01% to get the speed up to need slowing down, and the regen can only put, say, 0.005% back in, and never more than 0.01%, otherwise you have a means to create more energy that you have used to create it.
I only charge mine at all when I wanna go somewhere, I'll let it down to about 20 or so and then plug it in overnight next time I know I'm going somewhere. I do usually do 20 to 80 on trips but mainly because it's passively cooled and also I want a bit of reserve if the charger's out. I'll usually not mind running it down lower if I know I'm going to an overnight charge.
Lowest I've had mine is about -5%, bloody chargeplace scotland 😡
I have an ID3 and ifbim using rapid chargers I'll generally only go to 80%. I have to use public chargers at home so I always go to 100 in that case as it's better in terms of time efficiency
I have a Vauxhall Mokka e. You can't specify a charge limit so mine tends to charge to 100%. You can specify how long to charge for in the app but the app is useless and the car ignores it. luckily I don't go on many long journeys and I only charge 1 or 2 times a week. I try not to let it get bellow 50% in case of emergencies.
I think this is a really useful video for the uncertain/confused newbie. I had exactly this conversation with someone today and would really like to share the video with her, but it's members only. Can anything be done about that?
All members videos go public Fridays.
For me I have a 3 hour cheap window. Which means 21kw in those 3 hours, 18.5 after losses.
So essentially my car can charge to 100% and I have it set to charge to 100% but it never gets to 100% because my daily use just keeps the car middle charged.
And also as time goes on you know yourself, before bed your like the car is at 65%, well I don't need to charge tonight.
indeed in EVERY car - if truly fast charging, the charge rate HAS TO slow down as as soon as the Constant Current phase stops - ie the voltage per cell reaches "peak" voltage (4.15, 4.2, 4.25V for typical Li Ion, 3.65 LFP) - top voltage to reduce chemical strain on the cells..) - You charge however you like to get to the destination as quickly as possible - don't like the slowdown, drive to the next charger (within range).
The Stopping at 10-20% - basically means (in reality) stopping at the level where the voltage remains above "minimum" voltage on a full power application (low capacity voltage sag) - driving using less power when really "low" - or maybe the power delivery management will reduce peak current delivered to the motor at low power state - preserving the battery life at low capacity (I still think that some EV manufacturers are really quarantining the lower 10% to increase longevity - "zero miles" are not really "empty battery" - in a sophisticated system, but what the manufacturer wants to call empty.)
Of course even motor dealers don't really know the "nuts and bolts" of everything.
My electric assisted bicycle had an LFP battery over 12 years ago.
I drive a 63 reg Zoe Expression which has had it's battery depleted at least three times when I ran out of charge, due to my own fault and I always charge my car to 100%. And my battery pack is still at 97% SOH. So it really does not matter that much.
Always charge to 100% we have a 22 kWh Zoe and a 39 kWh E Niro. We need the range!
Same. 100% everytime for over 9 years. Battery soh was 93%
My car has a 260 mile range yesterday and I did a 230 mile trip, arrived home with 10% battery and no need to use a public charger.
As I understand it you should charge to 100% once in a while to ensure the BMS balances the battery properly, but that is probably wrong too.
Agreed that the true range is the 0% to 100% range since if you know you need it you can use it. I can see an argument that in the same day on your second trip after DC fast charging, you have closer to 0% to 90% as it's usually not worth your time waiting for it to get to 100%.
And you typically want to keep some range in hand at the bottom end, in case you reach the charger and it's not working. That's gotten a lot better in recent years (a *lot* better!) but even so, I think you'd still target reaching the charger at 10% modern 50kWh-60kWh vehicles. So those intermediate legs on long journeys, plan to use up to 80% of the full capacity per leg.
New CN built Tesla M3's actually tell you to charge to 100% around once a week
Interesting piece from the RAC on batteries. Essentially they say only really an issue if you intend to keep the car for a long time or buying secondhand. Given evolving battery technology and composition, probably better to lease your EV a) battery degradation isn’t your problem, b) more EV choice and battery tech/composition 3 yrs down the road. That’s assuming you must have an EV now. Get a self charging hybrid instead to get a taste of driving electric without charging woes or range anxiety. That’s what I did after six months experience of an EV. I should have listened to The MacMaster before I bought. Worth a watch, his recent videos in particular Leeds to Isle of Skye then to the Lake District. He just wanted a charge, any charge.
Self charging, what magic is that?
@@erikz1337 no magic involved. I can drive locally predominantly on electric only. It is a “half way house” but until battery tech improves and infrastructure gets sorted, suits me. Granted it’s not for EV evangelists.
it's toyota's marketing campaign to sell their hybrid vehicles don't even support plug in charging at home. view it as a defensive measure by a manufacturer that on hydrogen vehicles over battery powered. At the same time PHEVs may suffer visibly fast degradation because they have a small battery: the non-ICE range might fall fast if you fill the battery up every night. which does at least leave with a full ICE vehicle and its range
I don't know if it's social media, but people that lease are often all about the 100% charge.
Even if it only makes a bit of difference to pack longevity, isn't it better to look after the pack as long as it's not compromising trips/lifestyle?
At some point, that leased car will probably go to auction. Isn't it better for everyone if it reaches that point in the best condition possible?
#thebiggerpicture
Audi warn you in their app that going above 80% is less good for the battery. They recommend the 80 20 rule. I charge to 100% if doing a long journey (my Q4 real range is at around 275 miles) I never leave it at 100% parked for too long. Im planning to keep the car. How many people need a 2l diesel most of the time....they could get away with a tiny engine most of the time and just not have great performance on the occasional run.......but most people buy a decent sized engine. I would rather have a big battery that I rarely use than hammering a smaller battery
Super stuff.
I'm forever seeing this - need to do 200 mile journey in a car with 160 mile range. Can only use 60% (20-80) so that means i have to stop at least twice or the battery will be dead in a couple of years.
It's utter nonsense and i think a reasonable proportion of people are saying this cynically to deter ev ownership.
My Fiat 500e generally stays between 40 and 80%, but I charge to the mid or upper 90s before taking a longish trip the same day. There is no specific guidance in the owner's handbook about this, which suggests Fiat are confident in their batteries' longevity.
Question. I have a Zoe which has a maximum DC charge rate of 50kw. I have 2 rapid chargers very close by, one outputting 50kw max and the other 75kw max. I realise that when charging the charge speed rarely gets close to the full 50kw, will the more powerful 75kw perform better than the 50kw charger; and get me consistently closer to the max of 50 or would they both perform the same.
same, as it's the car that the limiting factor
A good analogy is spending $3 every time you charge over 80%. If you go on a road trip 3 times a year it's $10, which is negligible. If you charge to 100% every day for a year it's $1000, which is quite a lot.
Charging to 100% every day is the problem, not charging to 100% for/on road trips.
Important to note that this is only true for NMC batteries. LFP batteries in many newer cars don't have a problem with sitting at 100% for extended periods of time.
100% as at home i charge overnight on EV 7 rate and whilst car will start at programmed time it can't be programmed to stop and i couldn't be bothering working out different start times as it means going out back out to the car on cold, wet nights due to the app rarely working.
On the road if i need 100% I'll go for it unless someone is waiting to charge then I stop at 80%