Doug Wilson and N.D. Wilson talk Magic in Literature Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- N.D. WIlson and Doug Wilson discuss whether Christians parents encourage their kids to read books with Magic in them?
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Watch Magic in Literature Part 2 here: ruclips.net/video/NfQbqrJJUwc/видео.html
I love Doug but he is not being consistent here. He is talking as if the word magic does not have a real world application or that because the practise of magic in fantasy novels don't appear to be using divination then it is fine to promote something that God detests and declares to be an abomination. The real life application of magic is what the Bible refers to as sorcery and it is widely used by witches, shamans and witchdoctors around the world today. Humans can only work wonders through the power of God or through the power of Satan. Illusion falls into the category of deception. Miracles worked by the power of God are absolutely not magic. They are demonstrations of God's power over nature.
I understand the concepts of fantasy and make believe and storytelling. I understand how these type of stories appeal to kids. It's not up to us to decide whether the promotion of fantasy type magic in books is harmless or not. There are cases where the authors are deliberately putting ideas in the books to entice children to develop a fascination with the occult and the Harry Potter books are a clear example of this. We should also realise that this is exactly how to enemy operates to make us accept things that are wicked by presenting them in a harmless fashion. It's the same thing as having a transgender read stories to your kids and then teach them to twerk.
So you're against Narnia and Lord of the Rings then?
@@jaihummel5057 Those books are fine as long as they are seen as allegory and as long as the recipient is taught that the truths represented in the fairy tale do not exactly correspond to the reality of the gospel and that there is magic that is real and not imaginary and that real world magic is described as an abomination by God and carried a death penalty under OT law.
A miracle being explained to a child as "magic" as opposed to something supernatural is not the same as the promotion of magic rituals and participation casting of spells in wizardry/(which the bible calls sorcery) and witchcraft.
JK Rowling uses specific numerology and symbolism that is used by witches, Freemasons and practitioners of magic. She makes references to 666, blood ritual magic, and has a tatoo of the Baphomet inscription message by Eliphas Levi on her arm so she clearly has more than a passing interest in the occult, regardless of any claims to be a Christian.
The magic she promotes is that of a ritual nature and is not simply a blanket term to describe supernatural events.
This is not the same as Narnia and her books are not in any way pointing kids to the Christian message but they may encourage kids to investigate and experiment with the occult.
I spoke to a real life witch many years ago who was inspired by JK Rowling to write her own book for kids about a female protagonist similar to Harry Potter.
As a budding Fantasy author I find this conversation essential to the craft of storytelling. I have searched high & low for Christian advise on the subject & these videos seem to be the sum total. As soon as people here my work has magic & Dragons they either run the other way or denounce it; even though I bring up the overall intent of "magic" I'm labeled as writing the next Harry Potter to lead children & young adults astray. I would like to say thanks for posting these videos, I don't feel quite so alone in my view of literary magic.
Glad to find another writer here! I was beginning to think I was the only one. I'm actually coming out of the point of view that's being talked about (essentially "throwing the baby out with the bathwater), so I've found this extremely useful as well. Anyway, don't wanna bug you too much. Just thought your comment was encouraging.
I also feel compelled to write a fantasy series that includes elements of Christianity. And my conclusion for writing "Christian Fantasy" is that there are only two ways to do it. The first is where you take Christian themes and impose them on your secondary world (fictional setting), AKA the Tolkien approach. The second is to take our world at any point in time and insert a "assumption" that turns our world into the fantasy setting you intend to create. The tricky part about including GOD in any fictional work is what I call "Divine Characterization", which is to say your story must conform to a story that GOD would allow/create with someone/some people's lives. And the only way to do that with complete accuracy is to take real-life or biblical stories and impose them on your fantasy setting to convey your intended themes. Otherwise, don't diminish our GOD by creating a fantasy setting and assuming that he'd create it by including him in it, it's an insult to his majesty and splendor. When you create a fantasy setting, you are the god of said setting because you pull all the strings, so don't try to put your creative vision anywhere near GOD's vision of a world. Your imperfect and therefore human vision and his vision are not the same thing, it's pure arrogance and borderline heresy to think that. For my own series, I chose the second option with the assumption that all metaphors used in the bible can be taken literally, and then set the story during the Davidic period (970-931BC). Anyways, excuse my intensity, but this is a topic I've thought a lot about. God bless you @Alex Fairchild
I'm not a writer myself, but I've always had a great respect for masterful storytellers, and have found it sad to see so many Christians either unable to explain what makes Narnia or LotR good and Harry Potter wicked, or throw out everything in the fantasy genre
GK Chesterton, JRR Tolkien, and CS Lewis wrote extensively on this topic. They called it "Fairy stories" because they did not have a category at the time called "Fantasy" but that is what they were talking about.
A point to make: the acts of power in the Bible that we glorify, come from God.
It’s not clear if the magic from the various fiction comes from God (or someone/something analogous to God)
NO. Jesus wasn't doing Magic.
What God does in the Bible isn't magic, it's God doing something that only He can do. Miracles are NOT magic. "Magic" is man attempting to do, or using evil spirits to do, what only God can legitimately do. Before I was a believer, I sought magic for the power of it. Now I know it's a counterfeit that leads people away from God--and that includes Tolkien's books, which led me into the search for the black arts. OK, maybe not all people are led by it, but I was, and I've known others who were. And my children didn't read books with magic in them. Hearing you put God's miracles in the same box with magic is truly saddening.
The word 'magic' may have legitimate uses beyond what you describe. The question of whether it does is not a moral issue but a lexical issue.
Excellent. Thank you.
I reject the idea of Godly power being "magic" because its miracles and demonstration of God's power, not magic. Magic is use of power to manipulate reality to do something that violates principles of physics and science. Its about context and the origin of the power, that's what makes the difference. The witch who summoned Samuel's spirit, the Egyptian sorcerers who turned sticks into snakes; that was magic drawing on Satan's power (although the Witch seemed surprised that it worked).
This doesn't make magic in fiction wrong or evil, it just is important to not blur the lines between miraculous display of God's power and... well, magic.
I'm still interested in pastor Wilson's position on the soul. Trichotomy, dichotomy? Creationism or traducianism? And any other related matter thanks!
Interesting discussion and appreciated. However, realizing that you cannot do everything in such a short time, you might want to have considered how Second Temple Judaism, especially in Jubilees, the Book of Giants and Enoch discuss the origin of "magic" as knowledge that was forbidden to humans, but taught to them via the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6. Honestly, since that view seems to have been the dominant understanding of the origins of "magic" (as well as the origin of demons), the ethical issue comes to the front. There was knowledge that men ought never to have known; just like there was fruit from the Tree of Knowledge that should never have been consumed. In both Genesis 3 and Genesis 6 both were ethical attempts to obtain power, apart from and in defiance to God. "Miracles" on the other hand, consist of lawful power, lawfully obtained, for the purposes of glorifying God; like calling down fire from Heaven on the Priests of Baal, etc. Anyways, thanks for the discussion and keeping your comment section open! ;-)
Simply put, magic in this context is the new age movement or anything like it which is an unbiblical as you can get. Supernatural power from stories in Scripture comes or anything to do with Genesis and creation come from God. This is very easy to distinguish. Whats more tough is for parents is to set up guidelines on what their children shouldnt be watching or reading or when a movie, game, or book come out take a look at it then decide if its appropriate for your children.
In doing God's work, I always think of myself as a tool in God's hand. And in that light I think of Moses and his staff as a "wand" in God's hand. And the Pharoah's magicians as "wands" in the hands of demons.
This is great. Does the Bible define what magic is? Or how do we come about with a definition? Why doesn't the Bible use the word magic in a good light?
semantics!!
@@supersmart671 Yes! Very important!
My elf wizard casting fireball to make some Kentucky fried Goblins is not the same as a Witch Sacrificing goats in the forest to Bhaal, Baphomet and Molech.
From this discussion I am taking away that Harry Potter is okay for Christians to enjoy. Good magic fighting bad magic. Right?
Input or verification greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Ultimately, this discussion should adjust Christians shock levels on magic. It's a thing in the bible and in God's world and it has particular qualities that separate it from witchcraft warned of in scripture. Harry Potter's magic has major pitfalls when compared with scripture. If you'd like to hear Nate talk more about Potters shortcomings with magic see this interview: ruclips.net/video/6daiLoxCWzI/видео.html
Thank you Canon Press for a response and the helpful link! This has been very insightful for me.
@@michaelmaynard2478 Cheers!
@LuthAMF You've heard rightly.
Canon Press Watched Nate’s interview.
What are your thoughts on how Rowling’s magic in Potter does seem to allude to what we see in scripture? Spoiler Alert....
I’m thinking specifically of Harry’s use of his trademark “expelliarmus” (“disarming charm”) in his final defeat of Voldemort and Col 2:15’s description of Christ’s victory. Maybe that’s a bit of stretch. Harry voluntarily walks to his death (carrying a piece of wood), is murdered by the Dark Lord, finds himself at King’s Cross and is then resurrected. Afterwards those loyal to him come under the protection of his sacrifice. In the final duel Harry defeats Voldy in an act that both disarms and undoes him by turning his own killing curse against him.
First comment!
I never understood why people take issue with fiction. Most stories that contain magic are fantasy fiction tales. Those are not things to be taken that seriously. It’s pretend. Why are people afraid of something that’s not real?
Your assumptive principle is that fiction does not influence people. I would argue that people (and especially kids) are MORE prone to being influenced if the ideas are peddled through fiction. They more readily criticize ideas presented bald fashion. Has the sale of books on witchcraft, paraphernalia for divination etc. increased since Harry Potter? Causation is difficult to prove, but the answer is a clear "Yes".
Christians like christian magic. Christians don't like non-christian magic. In both instances, they believe in magical powers and magical thinking. Own it. Realize you will be mocked and should be mocked because it is silly. Adapt.
Christians believe in the supernatural.
You don't know what Christians like or believe. That is just your confused opinion.
@@robertfishter2862 supernatural = magic
In the Christian worldview, supernatural miracles come from an all-loving God. The power of sorcery comes from Satan, who comes to kill, steal, and destroy. What could be more clear? You might also notice that the human through which God works is often resistant (Moses, Jeremiah), whereas those who use demonic power are typically seeking power.
Hi James. I know this is a whole year later but I only just discovered this channel and this this comment. Supernatural could essential be viewed as magic. I think I can agree on that for the sake of argument. In response to your other comment it commits a fallacy. If Christian magic as you call it and non-christian magic are equal in value then non Christian magic users are equally worthy of mockery according to what you posted. Whether or not something is true doesn't make mockery necessary but if you are going to mock christians over magic you should apply that standard to the other side as well. I don't think you should mock in either case really I'm just pointing out what I can see.
Hopefully I haven't offended you though that's not my intent. As for it being christian magic.. I'd say that what it boils down to as to why there is a difference in preference that you noted, it's a matter of authority. If the God of the bible exists, He has the legitimate authority as creater ruler and redeemer if the universe to change that creation via supernatural/magic/miraculous means. Consequently any subversion by a human that has not been authorized by God to use the supernatural is in essence claiming to be God ie an act of idolatry that God detests. Also as Doug points out, what is the power used for? Glory for God? Or self?
Hopefully this was educational and a value to you.
That’s interesting. I never thought of gods miracles as magic. I guess I can watch Harry Potter now, and the growing concern of magic taking over Marvel movies isn’t necessarily right.
Potter literally has divination and conversing with the dead. That is called out by God. Plus, Rowling literally drew from Wicca for the books.
Harry Potter is a Christian story