Doug Wilson never fails to produce a considerate and insightful answer when prompted. These topical segments are a valuable resource for Christians. Grateful for his preaching and teaching. Can't believe he would name his son Not Doug Wilson though. Thats pretty messed up.
The core point is not whether the act is done for good or to please God, but whether the source is God and acknowledged as such. If we attempt to cause something using any but ordinary physical means, and we are not relying on God for it, we are doing sorcery, whether or not we engage other spirits directly or indirectly, or know or acknowledge this.
Have you done a q&a on whether or not Dungeons and Dragons is okay to play? My thoughts on it are that like all forms of entertainment it can be bad, but that it can also be enjoyed. If you have made a video or talked about it somewhere could I het a link?
Yep, comparing it to other entertainment forms is the direction to go. It's a wisdom question, not a moral decision. It could even be okay for one person but not for another.
I had a disagreement with part I, as many others seemed to, not because of how you defined magic. I think, according to your definition, it made sense. Typically, magic refers to a force that is unexplained, or commanded in an undetermined way. However, it is more apt to describe true magic (that of Pharaoh's magicians) in terms of source of power. Prophets, God, Jesus and Moses all do magical works, but they are not magic. They are wonderful and unexplained, some of the time, but not magic. Magic, as I see defined by the bible and outlawed by God in the OT is in reference to the source of the power. Ie some small god, demon, angel or even the human as source. That is magic.
I think the difference between sorcery and miracles is sorcery attempts to make the user into a small god who attempts to forcefully manipulate the fabric of reality via demons. Miracles are a submissive form of power that flows from the creator according to His will.
Very interesting discussion. At 8:50 why do you say, " ... Moses is doing capital 'M' magic?" 👀 I guess the question is: Why are you inclined to use the word "magic" as a definition there at all? Is it because C.S. Lewis used the term that way for Narnia? ^ in Exodus, God does not describe or imply that what Moses did in Pharoh's court was considered "magic" in any sense. The signs that God performed through Moses were judgements against the gods of Egypt (and subsequently on the people of Egypt who put their trust in false gods). They sent a clear message that God rules all of everything, not lesser rulers of this world (spiritual or human). Miracles (like prayer) are acts of obedience to God's will. Miracles glorify and magnify God because they are done BY Him-- through His servants. (Not once did Jesus or the prophets perform a miracle by their own volition -- it was always in accordance/submission to God). Magic is cooperation with lesser (fallen rebel) forces apart from God's will. And it glorifies anything other than God. The users of magic have their own agenda in mind, not God's. I understand there is a difference between "intended meaning" and "literal meaning," but it seems like Tolkien and Lewis may have softened the line between good and evil by applying an "easy to swallow" term to Supreme Goodness in their books. 🤔 For example: Does putting freshly diced carrots in (an emptied) colorful cereal box make it easier for your kids to eat carrots? If you call the carrots "corn pops" or "fruit loops" are you doing violence to a child's understanding of both sugery cereal and healthy vegetables?
I was raised around Christians who were against all magic talk unless it was cs lewis 🙄. I don't know why I never believed it was wrong to have an imagination and enjoy a good fantasy even though everyone was telling me it was wrong.
What I like to say in response is "My elf wizard casting fireball to make some Kentucky fried Goblin is not the same as a Witch in the middle of the woods sacrificing goats to Baphomet."
I have to disagree with a few points. God did create natural laws and constants (Gen 8:22). Of course he governs them but we should not say that God did not establish laws and constants. Throughout both videos, I have not seen a clear definition of what magic and sorcery is according to scripture. To use divination when talking about Joseph or use magic when talking of Daniel is ignorant. Divination is the summoning of spirits (demons) to gain knowledge of the future. This is not on a par with prophecy (getting a revelation from God) or the practise of drawing lots to make a decision. The problem with J K Rowling and the Potter books is not "structural". The woman is clearly a student of the occult herself and makes numerous references to witchcraft, Freemasonry, numerology (666) in the books. She has a tattoo on her arm of the inscription on the Baphomet statue drawn by Eliphas Levi who was a real life practiser of magic rituals. The magic may seem to fall into the fantasy/make believe category but seeds are being sown to invoke a fascination with the occult in children. Demons do use various forms of entertainment to seduce people into sin and put them in bondage and demonic influence. We should not be obsessed with the enemy but neither should we be ignorant of his devices. Come out from among them and be separate.
Role Playing games make a clear distinction between the two concepts of miracles and magic: miracles are a totally different thing, a difference between the origin of power and the delivered effect. Calling miracles "magic" violates this concept, which I think is actually quite useful and valid. They both are supernatural, but that doesn't make Jesus feeding the 5000 a magical spell. Magic is not MERELY supernatural.
I think it is problematic for Doug to say their are problems with the potter series when he hasn't even read the books as he admits. And Dumbledore being gay was not apart of the series but is foolishness added after the final book.
It's an insightful discussion with a lot of good points, but I think it's missing a key angle on modern, secular, magical narratives. Yes, you're right to say that 'natural law' is simply God's normal way of doing things and when he changes those laws we can describe it as miraculous; so basically, 'magic' as something occult is changing God's set laws, against his holy will, going against Him - that makes it evil. However, we should be careful of applying this real-world Biblically founded understanding to a lot of modern fiction: Harry Potter, etc., are narratives in which 'reality' is reconstructed into something in which God does not exist and never has existed; magic in these settings is not as you have described, but is working on a different set of rules - it is an underlying power in a godless universe, or a skill which taps into the metaphysics underlying an Enlightenment-materialist reality... And so this can be very dangerous: when we watch or read into these worlds, we are accepting the verisimilitude of the godless distorted reality (or we wouldn't care about the characters or story)- in which magic has been stripped of its real meaning and made into something totally separate from its real-world consequences; and those ideas creeping into our subconsciouses can go quite unnoticed and be really damaging.
Did you miss Part 1? Watch Magic in Literature Part 1 here: ruclips.net/video/YggSeaW1pJk/видео.html
Doug Wilson never fails to produce a considerate and insightful answer when prompted. These topical segments are a valuable resource for Christians. Grateful for his preaching and teaching. Can't believe he would name his son Not Doug Wilson though. Thats pretty messed up.
😂
The core point is not whether the act is done for good or to please God, but whether the source is God and acknowledged as such.
If we attempt to cause something using any but ordinary physical means, and we are not relying on God for it, we are doing sorcery, whether or not we engage other spirits directly or indirectly, or know or acknowledge this.
"It's not.a divide you can measure using an Enlightenment calculus." Another quotable quote from Doug Wilson. @6:20
Have you done a q&a on whether or not Dungeons and Dragons is okay to play?
My thoughts on it are that like all forms of entertainment it can be bad, but that it can also be enjoyed. If you have made a video or talked about it somewhere could I het a link?
Yep, comparing it to other entertainment forms is the direction to go. It's a wisdom question, not a moral decision. It could even be okay for one person but not for another.
I had a disagreement with part I, as many others seemed to, not because of how you defined magic. I think, according to your definition, it made sense. Typically, magic refers to a force that is unexplained, or commanded in an undetermined way. However, it is more apt to describe true magic (that of Pharaoh's magicians) in terms of source of power. Prophets, God, Jesus and Moses all do magical works, but they are not magic. They are wonderful and unexplained, some of the time, but not magic. Magic, as I see defined by the bible and outlawed by God in the OT is in reference to the source of the power. Ie some small god, demon, angel or even the human as source. That is magic.
Well said
"Magic = sufficiently advanced technology"
- a famous scifi author.
I think the difference between sorcery and miracles is sorcery attempts to make the user into a small god who attempts to forcefully manipulate the fabric of reality via demons. Miracles are a submissive form of power that flows from the creator according to His will.
Very interesting discussion.
At 8:50 why do you say, " ... Moses is doing capital 'M' magic?" 👀
I guess the question is: Why are you inclined to use the word "magic" as a definition there at all?
Is it because C.S. Lewis used the term that way for Narnia?
^ in Exodus, God does not describe or imply that what Moses did in Pharoh's court was considered "magic" in any sense. The signs that God performed through Moses were judgements against the gods of Egypt (and subsequently on the people of Egypt who put their trust in false gods). They sent a clear message that God rules all of everything, not lesser rulers of this world (spiritual or human).
Miracles (like prayer) are acts of obedience to God's will. Miracles glorify and magnify God because they are done BY Him-- through His servants. (Not once did Jesus or the prophets perform a miracle by their own volition -- it was always in accordance/submission to God).
Magic is cooperation with lesser (fallen rebel) forces apart from God's will. And it glorifies anything other than God. The users of magic have their own agenda in mind, not God's.
I understand there is a difference between "intended meaning" and "literal meaning," but it seems like Tolkien and Lewis may have softened the line between good and evil by applying an "easy to swallow" term to Supreme Goodness in their books. 🤔
For example:
Does putting freshly diced carrots in (an emptied) colorful cereal box make it easier for your kids to eat carrots?
If you call the carrots "corn pops" or "fruit loops" are you doing violence to a child's understanding of both sugery cereal and healthy vegetables?
I was raised around Christians who were against all magic talk unless it was cs lewis 🙄. I don't know why I never believed it was wrong to have an imagination and enjoy a good fantasy even though everyone was telling me it was wrong.
What I like to say in response is "My elf wizard casting fireball to make some Kentucky fried Goblin is not the same as a Witch in the middle of the woods sacrificing goats to Baphomet."
I have to disagree with a few points. God did create natural laws and constants (Gen 8:22). Of course he governs them but we should not say that God did not establish laws and constants. Throughout both videos, I have not seen a clear definition of what magic and sorcery is according to scripture. To use divination when talking about Joseph or use magic when talking of Daniel is ignorant. Divination is the summoning of spirits (demons) to gain knowledge of the future. This is not on a par with prophecy (getting a revelation from God) or the practise of drawing lots to make a decision.
The problem with J K Rowling and the Potter books is not "structural". The woman is clearly a student of the occult herself and makes numerous references to witchcraft, Freemasonry, numerology (666) in the books. She has a tattoo on her arm of the inscription on the Baphomet statue drawn by Eliphas Levi who was a real life practiser of magic rituals. The magic may seem to fall into the fantasy/make believe category but seeds are being sown to invoke a fascination with the occult in children. Demons do use various forms of entertainment to seduce people into sin and put them in bondage and demonic influence. We should not be obsessed with the enemy but neither should we be ignorant of his devices. Come out from among them and be separate.
Really good breakdown
Role Playing games make a clear distinction between the two concepts of miracles and magic: miracles are a totally different thing, a difference between the origin of power and the delivered effect. Calling miracles "magic" violates this concept, which I think is actually quite useful and valid. They both are supernatural, but that doesn't make Jesus feeding the 5000 a magical spell. Magic is not MERELY supernatural.
I think it is problematic for Doug to say their are problems with the potter series when he hasn't even read the books as he admits. And Dumbledore being gay was not apart of the series but is foolishness added after the final book.
The sad thing I see is too many people who cannot distinguish between fiction and reality.
Sarooman 😲
It's an insightful discussion with a lot of good points, but I think it's missing a key angle on modern, secular, magical narratives. Yes, you're right to say that 'natural law' is simply God's normal way of doing things and when he changes those laws we can describe it as miraculous; so basically, 'magic' as something occult is changing God's set laws, against his holy will, going against Him - that makes it evil. However, we should be careful of applying this real-world Biblically founded understanding to a lot of modern fiction: Harry Potter, etc., are narratives in which 'reality' is reconstructed into something in which God does not exist and never has existed; magic in these settings is not as you have described, but is working on a different set of rules - it is an underlying power in a godless universe, or a skill which taps into the metaphysics underlying an Enlightenment-materialist reality... And so this can be very dangerous: when we watch or read into these worlds, we are accepting the verisimilitude of the godless distorted reality (or we wouldn't care about the characters or story)- in which magic has been stripped of its real meaning and made into something totally separate from its real-world consequences; and those ideas creeping into our subconsciouses can go quite unnoticed and be really damaging.
Especially, damaging for children.
The Hunger Games is more high literature than Harry Potter.
It's all in Enoch, children! Whatever are they teaching in the schools these days... ;-)