Dustin I just started an apprenticeship 4 weeks ago and honestly I feel lost and dont know wtf is going on most of my working hours but you have a way of explaining electricity that is just so sublime. You really explain everything in a way that just makes it click in my brain and I cannot thank you enough. You're a great teacher and if you are ever in the Chicago area I would love to buy you a beer! Take care man :)
I can relate. I felt completely lost for a while when I first started and I had zero mechanical abilities. 9 years later I had a masters license. You got an edge over me back then, though. You got RUclips and channels like Electrician U! We barely had internet. Stick with it. You got this my man.
Hey man, I was in the same boat as you. Had absolutely no knowledge of electrical nor any trades, and I couldn’t tell the difference between an impact driver and a drill. Just show up everyday with the willingness to learn and you will start to understand electrical 👍
I love your videos. I'm an estimator working in construction and not having been a field guy, your videos go a long way to demystifying the electrical work.
This had to be the best informative video about how a circuit breaker panel works. Very informative, interesting, and easy to understand. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Excellent explanation. Explains why only half of ny circuits worked after having service panel replaced. Discovered one phase was loose in connection coming into house.
i conected my power source to 100 double pole breaker. This allows me to avoid a hot bar n hot lugs when working on panel, everything is dead with breaker off. I fed my sub panel using lugs of main panel as jumpers to sub. Appears to work great.
Great video. Really good explanation. The only two things are missed. 1. I do not have main 200A breaker at home on main panel, so how I can switch down all electricity when I need to install a new 60A breaker for electric car? 2. You do not show how exactly new breaker should be inserted, how it locks inside the panel and how to remove a breaker if needed.
Hey Dustin! Nice video, as always. Thank you for all your work. I recently came across an A/C unit which was wired with 12/2 romex in a pvc conduit going to 40 amp Square D breaker in a GE panel. I tried to explain to the customer it’s not the way it should’ve been done, but she didn’t seem to understand what the big deal was. Could you please do an experiment where you have too much current traveling through a 12 ga wire 😅
I just found your channel today. I am not an electrician, but I am trying to understand the problem we are told we have in our older house. I enjoy learning, and I am wanting to gain a better understanding of what the electrician was explaining. In our breaker box, the white wires and bare wires are in the same place. He was trying to explain how the grounding and grounded should never be like that...and that is how I landed myself searching your videos! Do you have anything else that explains this? I am really wanting to understand it better.
Search for ground neutral bonding at the main panel. Any sub panel needs to be separate. He has a great video that visualizes the ground fault loop that can be created if it's done wrong.
I becoming a professional because of yours knowledge hahaha the way you explain everything is espectacular haha thanks I’m not an electrician but I love to learn .every day that we pass without learning something new it’s a lost day
I'd love to see some videos about solar wiring. Especially line side tapping vs load side and ground neutral bonding at the solar ac load distribution vs at the home.
Hey brah…… could you explain how to determine a lose neutral on service side? I want a clear explanation on signs or steps to see this faster….. I know two pole breakers can mess with readings
I would start with this: Test L1 to L2. Divide that by two and that should be about what you can expect when testing L1 to N and L2 to N. Conduct those two tests. If neutral is loose, I suspect the sum of those two tests will fall short of L1 to L2. I say suspect, because a tester doesn't really put a load on the circuit, which may not be enough to see a problem. Make sure all tests are done at service entrance lugs, preferably in the meter socket not the panel. If you test from the panel, a loose neutral could exist in the meter socket, not the service.
If client tells you " when i turn on the oven, the lights turn on but dimmed." Or .. if you dont understand the reason why something weird is happening, It's probably a loose neutral
Good morning, We live in an old house whose breaker is only 100 amps, 24 spaces. We want to change to 200 amps, because 100 amps is no longer enough. We would like to know what you suggested for changing the 100-amp breaker. Which is better: 20 spaces for 40 circuits, 42 spaces for 42 circuits, 40 spaces for 80 circuits? Alternative? Thanks for sharing your knowledge and have a nice day!
I love your videos! You guys are great! I need your professional knowledge on my panel. I have a 100amp 20 circuit General Electric 1960 era. I'm out of neutrals i want to add a type 1 surge protector. Is it code to add a neutral bar and a bumper wire from old to new? Also does the addon neutral bar need to be isolated the original? Lastly no ground bar can i just simply screw one into the panel?
Thanks for the great content! I often meet linemen or other electricians who have destroyed their bodies - bad back, shoulders, etc. Is it possible to be an electrician for a long time without ruining your body? What advice would you give to young electricians to take care of themselves?
Work slower 😆🤣 The guys that are on disability early worked their butts off or were injured. More productivity from the additional 10 years of work vs living off of the taxes you've paid in 😆🤣
Good boots... Most say good boots adds a good 5 years to your working life. I buy "Red wings" and wont buy any other boot. 340bucks, well worth it... No break in, works and feels good day one. 100% American Made. No BS assembly in USA, it is 100% USA made. Goto an actual red-wing store. They will size you and they sell electrician boots(can't make a ground thru your feet basically). Then spend the extra 60 for their inserts that will fix your posture. Might feel weird to walk correctly at first. It fixed mine, made my foot feel much better 6+ months later.
A word of caution. In the early days, electricians used to wire panels with three wires. Two hots and a bare copper. The bare copper was often attached to the ground rod. Notice there was no shielded neutral back to the pole pig secondary mid tap!!!! Often there were two hole receptacles with no ground wire. Neutrals were terminated on the neutral bus along with an occasional ground wire. The bare copper service line from the ground rod was then terminated on the neutral. This was done up into the seventies. Don’t be surprised to find a federal pacific box here either. Receptacle grounds were left floating if they 0:47 replaced original two prong receptacles. 1). You should explain how these systems work esp. with unbalanced loads. 2). The new guys need to be aware of these widow makers. They are out there. Sometimes you find the grounds bonded to copper water pipes. Jumpers across plastic pipe repairs. Also note that these installs often have mice and rat chew damage on wires. A welcome source of hidden arc faults.
You mentioned explaining why the neutral bus bars should be isolated on plastic but not sure I saw that. Why is that? I had an electrician add new bus bars direct to the main panel for more neutral and they are not on the plastic part. Is that ok?
HELP! I'm replacing an old Federal Pacific 100-amp panel with a 200-amp Square D Hameline panel, so I will need to upgrade the service entrance cable and want to use 2/0 THHN copper. The outdoor meter can/box is mounted low, (30" off the ground at bottom edge of can) outside, so if I use the bottom rear 2-inch knockout of the meter can, it will put the hole through the wall below the bottom edge of the new breaker panel by about 8 inches, so I will have to make a vertical 90 upwards turn from hole in wall to bottom knockout of the new panel. I cannot find a 2" close 90 PVC electrical fitting so I'm guessing they don't make one. My question is: how do I make that vertical 90 turn upwards? It will eventually be covered in drywall. Do I need to have the inside copper leads in conduit at all? If I use switch to 4/0 aluminum, do I need conduit inside the wall cavity? thanks in advance!
What benefits if any does a dedicated line offer? I’m considering placing a dedicated circuit in with the goal of reducing/eliminating the noise that exists on a shared circuit. Is this a wasted effort or is there benefit as I’ve described for doing it?
Hey there Dustin, could you please explain the reasons for humming or buzzing sounds coming from an electrical pane, the possible reasons, how dangerous it can be, and what to do about it? It would be much appreciated.
Not Dustin but an electrician here. One of your breakers is probably garbage and is arcing across it's contacts. Try turning every breaker off and see if there is no humming. Turn them on one at a time until you find the hum. You just saved yourself some time for an electrician to come out and swap the breaker for you. Do not do this yourself it's not something for the home handyman to do.
In the single phase 240 v system, if a circuit requires 240v then the breaker needs to be attached to both hots? Is that right? Is that why higher amp breakers attach to and pull from both main input lugs? Instead of combining end to end on one input?
Not accurate, but yes. The coil in the transformer is 240v. Your circuit goes all the way up and back. You need a load between the top of the coil and bottom so there isn't a boom 😏
I have a tricky multiple choice question, hopefully someone can with more knowledge can help me out A White/grey wire in a feeder circuit ________: A)Be bonded or have a circuit breaker B)Is the largest wire in that circuit C)Should not have a voltage to ground My notes: On the main panel, neutral is connected to the bar that is BONDED with the panel, the green grounding wire is also connected to the same bar. (so does that mean the answer is A?) In the sub panel, the neutral wire is connected to the neutral bar which is ISOLATED from the metal box with plastic between them, the Green grounding wire is separated and is connected to its own bar that is bonded to the sub panel box. In the circuit that this question applies to, --------- “The neutral wire is going to be sized larger than the Green grounding wire” (But that doesn’t mean it’s the LARGEST in the circuit right? Because the two hot wire could be the same size) --------"The neutral should have no potential difference(voltage) to the ground" (does that mean the answer is C?)
Hi Dustin Can you put out a video ( if you alredy did please let me know) on how a 277 V lighing works from Electric Pannel all the way to the light itself .... I whent to a Commercial building and the light switch give me a 277 volts reading on my volt meter
AMP * Volts = Watts / 3va = SQFT * .8 = Amount-Of-SQFT-you-can-use-for-3%-volt-dropoff... Funny part is most electricans don't even know this, they just use rule of the thumb and do the work... 100-ft or less, 12gauge. Over 100-ft 10-gauge.
Who’s going to learn anything from a 10 minute video about verifying a main service pannel or sub pannel. By drawing or definition Skipping the meter or multiple branch service meters. -Grounding & bonding -grounding to neutral. -single phase systems while combining 3 phase systems which the we all know the colors are entirely different. While not mentioning a thing about ac or dc theory in relation to what’s being articulated here. This is not Sparta THIS IS MADNESS!
How things change, in Mexico the electrical system is the same, only that the general panel is not 200A or even 100A...it is just a small general breaker of 30A...for the entire house, without subpanels hahaha
Quick question. BTW I'm not in the trades. The single phase panel setup with L1 and L2 180 out phase...isn't that the same as split phase? Thx. Love your content.
I know you cover US mostly, but it would be interesting if you could cover European 240v… I cannot convince a coworker that their power is 240v line to neutral… they think it is just like here that it is 240 line to line.
@@tedlahm5740 I would but it's kinda hard with my job to fly to Europe and take a picture. And I have shown them that and they still think it is line to line, so maybe it's a moot point anyways.
Dustin I just started an apprenticeship 4 weeks ago and honestly I feel lost and dont know wtf is going on most of my working hours but you have a way of explaining electricity that is just so sublime. You really explain everything in a way that just makes it click in my brain and I cannot thank you enough. You're a great teacher and if you are ever in the Chicago area I would love to buy you a beer! Take care man :)
I can relate. I felt completely lost for a while when I first started and I had zero mechanical abilities. 9 years later I had a masters license. You got an edge over me back then, though. You got RUclips and channels like Electrician U! We barely had internet. Stick with it. You got this my man.
@@Ephesians-ts8ze I am sorry I learn from my mistake never ask questions again
@@jeremynguyen2346 what do you mean?
Please help me join the server lol 😂
Hey man, I was in the same boat as you. Had absolutely no knowledge of electrical nor any trades, and I couldn’t tell the difference between an impact driver and a drill. Just show up everyday with the willingness to learn and you will start to understand electrical 👍
Nice job! Clear, concise and knowledgeable. Keep up the good work and I'll be tuning in often. Thank you!
I love your videos. I'm an estimator working in construction and not having been a field guy, your videos go a long way to demystifying the electrical work.
You literally made everything crystal clear man thank you.
This had to be the best informative video about how a circuit breaker panel works. Very informative, interesting, and easy to understand. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Excellent explanation. Explains why only half of ny circuits worked after having service panel replaced. Discovered one phase was loose in connection coming into house.
This guy is worth his weight in gold as a pro & a teacher! TY E.U.!
I'm not in trades and you explained this perfectly. Thank you. You actually made me understand this !
Your introduction alone is electrifying.
i conected my power source to 100 double pole breaker. This allows me to avoid a hot bar n hot lugs when working on panel, everything is dead with breaker off. I fed my sub panel using lugs of main panel as jumpers to sub. Appears to work great.
Thanks , you do a great job explaining things.
Wonderful videos, the dots are starting to connect and soon I will have a circuit!
Great video. Really good explanation. The only two things are missed.
1. I do not have main 200A breaker at home on main panel, so how I can switch down all electricity when I need to install a new 60A breaker for electric car?
2. You do not show how exactly new breaker should be inserted, how it locks inside the panel and how to remove a breaker if needed.
Hey Dustin! Nice video, as always. Thank you for all your work. I recently came across an A/C unit which was wired with 12/2 romex in a pvc conduit going to 40 amp Square D breaker in a GE panel. I tried to explain to the customer it’s not the way it should’ve been done, but she didn’t seem to understand what the big deal was. Could you please do an experiment where you have too much current traveling through a 12 ga wire 😅
Best I’ve seen it explained
This is one of my favorite videos. Thank you
Great job explaining it for a regular person.
I just found your channel today. I am not an electrician, but I am trying to understand the problem we are told we have in our older house. I enjoy learning, and I am wanting to gain a better understanding of what the electrician was explaining. In our breaker box, the white wires and bare wires are in the same place. He was trying to explain how the grounding and grounded should never be like that...and that is how I landed myself searching your videos! Do you have anything else that explains this? I am really wanting to understand it better.
Search for ground neutral bonding at the main panel. Any sub panel needs to be separate. He has a great video that visualizes the ground fault loop that can be created if it's done wrong.
I becoming a professional because of yours knowledge hahaha the way you explain everything is espectacular haha thanks I’m not an electrician but I love to learn .every day that we pass without learning something new it’s a lost day
Am so happy the day I come across your channel and be a subscriber, because I learned so much which definitely opened widens my knowledge.
I'd love to see some videos about solar wiring. Especially line side tapping vs load side and ground neutral bonding at the solar ac load distribution vs at the home.
Thank you. Could you please make a video on CBs two pole, three pole and single pole operation?
Great diagrams and explanations.
Boy I learned a lot from here. Keep it up man.
Can you please make a video playlist for basics maybe in order. I like this channel and I’m new to this craft
Excellent. Thx
High level overview of load center design. Nice work!
Thank you sir!!! Blessings to you and yours!!
Nice explanation. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Thank you for your videos they help me a lot
Nice video..thanks
I like to nerd out about electrical and electronic stuff 🤓
Excellent video thank you
Great video, explaining things simply. Thanks man! 🧠 💡
Hey brah…… could you explain how to determine a lose neutral on service side? I want a clear explanation on signs or steps to see this faster….. I know two pole breakers can mess with readings
I would start with this: Test L1 to L2. Divide that by two and that should be about what you can expect when testing L1 to N and L2 to N. Conduct those two tests. If neutral is loose, I suspect the sum of those two tests will fall short of L1 to L2. I say suspect, because a tester doesn't really put a load on the circuit, which may not be enough to see a problem. Make sure all tests are done at service entrance lugs, preferably in the meter socket not the panel. If you test from the panel, a loose neutral could exist in the meter socket, not the service.
If client tells you " when i turn on the oven, the lights turn on but dimmed." Or .. if you dont understand the reason why something weird is happening, It's probably a loose neutral
Good morning,
We live in an old house whose breaker is only 100 amps, 24 spaces.
We want to change to 200 amps, because 100 amps is no longer enough.
We would like to know what you suggested for changing the 100-amp breaker.
Which is better: 20 spaces for 40 circuits, 42 spaces for 42 circuits, 40 spaces for 80 circuits?
Alternative?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and have a nice day!
Asome ! thanks for the refresh 👍🏽
All clear. Thanks!
This dude always clears any trouble I got thank you Dustin
Yo. So cool to meet you in person at the NECA BBQ. Once again thank you for all I’ve learned from you on my journey to master!
Yo dustin you have inspired me so much to become an electrician love you man 🖤
I love your videos! You guys are great! I need your professional knowledge on my panel. I have a 100amp 20 circuit General Electric 1960 era. I'm out of neutrals i want to add a type 1 surge protector. Is it code to add a neutral bar and a bumper wire from old to new? Also does the addon neutral bar need to be isolated the original? Lastly no ground bar can i just simply screw one into the panel?
Great explanation, Thanks! Please do a review of the SPAN smart electric panel. I would like to here your opinion on it.
wow. Great explanation.
Thanks for the great content! I often meet linemen or other electricians who have destroyed their bodies - bad back, shoulders, etc. Is it possible to be an electrician for a long time without ruining your body? What advice would you give to young electricians to take care of themselves?
Stay in the gym, stay active
Eating right is a start 😂
Work slower 😆🤣
The guys that are on disability early worked their butts off or were injured. More productivity from the additional 10 years of work vs living off of the taxes you've paid in 😆🤣
Good boots... Most say good boots adds a good 5 years to your working life. I buy "Red wings" and wont buy any other boot. 340bucks, well worth it... No break in, works and feels good day one. 100% American Made. No BS assembly in USA, it is 100% USA made. Goto an actual red-wing store. They will size you and they sell electrician boots(can't make a ground thru your feet basically). Then spend the extra 60 for their inserts that will fix your posture. Might feel weird to walk correctly at first. It fixed mine, made my foot feel much better 6+ months later.
and if you buy boots, buy actual boot socks.....
Great explanation!!
Thank you so much Sir
Super. Thanks!
A word of caution. In the early days, electricians used to wire panels with three wires. Two hots and a bare copper. The bare copper was often attached to the ground rod. Notice there was no shielded neutral back to the pole pig secondary mid tap!!!! Often there were two hole receptacles with no ground wire. Neutrals were terminated on the neutral bus along with an occasional ground wire. The bare copper service line from the ground rod was then terminated on the neutral.
This was done up into the seventies. Don’t be surprised to find a federal pacific box here either. Receptacle grounds were left floating if they 0:47 replaced original two prong receptacles.
1). You should explain how these systems work esp. with unbalanced loads.
2). The new guys need to be aware of these widow makers. They are out there. Sometimes you find the grounds bonded to copper water pipes. Jumpers across plastic pipe repairs. Also note that these installs often have mice and rat chew damage on wires. A welcome source of hidden arc faults.
Video idea. How to wire latch circuit and how it operates
Good stuff you like what you do
More like this 👍
Have a vid on phase colors / their ordering depending on the orientation of the panel, etc?
Great video
Thank you
Very good sir 👍
Could you advise what brand electronic or digital whiteboard you are using in your lectures? Do you suggest any other? Thx L Killion
Hey Dustin nice video
Super super informative. Love your videos. Keep it up 🤘🤘
Great video!
You mentioned explaining why the neutral bus bars should be isolated on plastic but not sure I saw that. Why is that? I had an electrician add new bus bars direct to the main panel for more neutral and they are not on the plastic part. Is that ok?
Thank youuuuuuuhh
Great explanation 👌
HELP! I'm replacing an old Federal Pacific 100-amp panel with a 200-amp Square D Hameline panel, so I will need to upgrade the service entrance cable and want to use 2/0 THHN copper.
The outdoor meter can/box is mounted low, (30" off the ground at bottom edge of can) outside, so if I use the bottom rear 2-inch knockout of the meter can, it will put the hole through the wall below the bottom edge of the new breaker panel by about 8 inches, so I will have to make a vertical 90 upwards turn from hole in wall to bottom knockout of the new panel. I cannot find a 2" close 90 PVC electrical fitting so I'm guessing they don't make one.
My question is: how do I make that vertical 90 turn upwards? It will eventually be covered in drywall. Do I need to have the inside copper leads in conduit at all? If I use switch to 4/0 aluminum, do I need conduit inside the wall cavity? thanks in advance!
Awsome bro🔥🔥🔥
Appreciate the video 💪🏿
Appreciate ya bro bless 🆙
What benefits if any does a dedicated line offer? I’m considering placing a dedicated circuit in with the goal of reducing/eliminating the noise that exists on a shared circuit. Is this a wasted effort or is there benefit as I’ve described for doing it?
So to get a 240v circuit you use 2 circuit breakers and 2 hots and 2 neutrals to the load?
is there any advantage or reason to put certain breakers / loads on L1 while other breakers / loads on L2 ?
Hey there Dustin, could you please explain the reasons for humming or buzzing sounds coming from an electrical pane, the possible reasons, how dangerous it can be, and what to do about it? It would be much appreciated.
Not Dustin but an electrician here. One of your breakers is probably garbage and is arcing across it's contacts. Try turning every breaker off and see if there is no humming. Turn them on one at a time until you find the hum. You just saved yourself some time for an electrician to come out and swap the breaker for you. Do not do this yourself it's not something for the home handyman to do.
In the single phase 240 v system, if a circuit requires 240v then the breaker needs to be attached to both hots? Is that right? Is that why higher amp breakers attach to and pull from both main input lugs? Instead of combining end to end on one input?
YEEESS!! SPARKY RAGE!!!
Can I assume then for a 240v circuit (drier/range) the circuit breaker would tap the power from the red and the black bus bar?
Not accurate, but yes. The coil in the transformer is 240v. Your circuit goes all the way up and back. You need a load between the top of the coil and bottom so there isn't a boom 😏
The breaker lands on both bus bars. So, yes. The red and black
Here’s a tip for your drawings is to put circles in the Middle of the squares for the lungs
I have a tricky multiple choice question, hopefully someone can with more knowledge can help me out
A White/grey wire in a feeder circuit ________:
A)Be bonded or have a circuit breaker
B)Is the largest wire in that circuit
C)Should not have a voltage to ground
My notes:
On the main panel, neutral is connected to the bar that is BONDED with the panel, the green grounding wire is also connected to the same bar. (so does that mean the answer is A?)
In the sub panel, the neutral wire is connected to the neutral bar which is ISOLATED from the metal box with plastic between them, the Green grounding wire is separated and is connected to its own bar that is bonded to the sub panel box.
In the circuit that this question applies to,
--------- “The neutral wire is going to be sized larger than the Green grounding wire”
(But that doesn’t mean it’s the LARGEST in the circuit right? Because the two hot wire could be the same size)
--------"The neutral should have no potential difference(voltage) to the ground" (does that mean the answer is C?)
Please make a video on Eaton regular panel in comparison with Eaton Plug on Neutral Panel.
I never thought about why the bars were staggered to make sure double poles were drawing from each leg
Hey can you explain what the new 12-2 blue wires are for?
I wish you could teach my Algebra teacher how to use a digital board. He uses the mouse to make points, instead of the marker you use.
If I do a continuity test between the neutral bar and ground bar in a panel that is not connected to anything. Will there be continuity?
Hi Dustin Can you put out a video ( if you alredy did please let me know) on how a 277 V lighing works from Electric Pannel all the way to the light itself .... I whent to a Commercial building and the light switch give me a 277 volts reading on my volt meter
But neutrals on the bottom area where the breakers go? Like the hot is right next to the neutral? It’s called plug on neutral I think?
Cool video Dustin keep them coming back 😮!!$$$&!!!!!!
Can you explain generator transfer switches?
Also can be a fish aquarium or light dimmer as long as it runs on electricity
Can you show us how to do AIC calculations or voltage drop? Thanks!
AMP * Volts = Watts / 3va = SQFT * .8 = Amount-Of-SQFT-you-can-use-for-3%-volt-dropoff... Funny part is most electricans don't even know this, they just use rule of the thumb and do the work... 100-ft or less, 12gauge. Over 100-ft 10-gauge.
Who’s going to learn anything from a 10 minute video about verifying a main service pannel or sub pannel. By drawing or definition
Skipping the meter or multiple branch service meters.
-Grounding & bonding
-grounding to neutral.
-single phase systems while combining 3 phase systems which the we all know the colors are entirely different.
While not mentioning a thing about ac or dc theory in relation to what’s being articulated here.
This is not Sparta
THIS IS MADNESS!
How do you know when you are connecting a breaker across the bus bars to get 240V on that breaker
The breaker is wide... it clips onto both bars
Three phase is primary secondary and auxiliary or anything like a ceiling fan
Please show how to balance a single phase panel.
so the bottom of the braker and the screw of the braker is hot?
In my panel there a a 150 breaker can I changet for a 200 ??
What digital board is that?
QO brother! Show that SE stuff!
How things change, in Mexico the electrical system is the same, only that the general panel is not 200A or even 100A...it is just a small general breaker of 30A...for the entire house, without subpanels hahaha
No ground conductor coming into service panel. G and N bonded together.
Only the N going back to the transformer?
Yes. Neutral to transformer
Cool
Quick question. BTW I'm not in the trades. The single phase panel setup with L1 and L2 180 out phase...isn't that the same as split phase? Thx. Love your content.
I know you cover US mostly, but it would be interesting if you could cover European 240v… I cannot convince a coworker that their power is 240v line to neutral… they think it is just like here that it is 240 line to line.
Use a voltmeter?
@@tedlahm5740 I would but it's kinda hard with my job to fly to Europe and take a picture. And I have shown them that and they still think it is line to line, so maybe it's a moot point anyways.