Discussion | Divergent by Veronica Roth
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- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2025
- Trigger warning: I talk about sexual assault. What started out as a review turns into a bit of a discussion. I ask a lot of questions because I'm curious to see how other people feel about some of these things that I wrestled with while reading this novel.
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Such an interesting question. It's actually something that bothers writers too and has probably for as long as writing has been a thing. I read Negotiating with the Dead by Margaret Atwood about two weeks ago and she talks about whether writers have a duty/responsibility to try to teach with their writing or whether it doesn't need to and goes into that whole debate and how it's changed over time. It gets really difficult when you start thinking that every book needs to teach because sometimes the morals of society aren't okay so a book might be banned because it has a certain set of views that go against the society's. On saying that I do think that favourite characters can shape your view of how you want to act yourself so I think it's important to address healthy ways of dealing with things!
I'm curious to read Negotiating with the Dead by Atwood now! She is a very interesting writer, and I think it would be cool to see her thoughts on the topic of a writer's responsibility to teach. I will have to find myself a copy. :)
I love your mug Emily!
The relationship with Divergent kind of blurs a bit with other YA romances that I've read (which is really sad when I think about it) but I do remember being like "Wtf?" when she was assaulted and we moved on in the story like nothing happened. This is one of the main issues I have with YA -- for some reason YA authors love writing these overly-attached/dangerous-but-in-a-"good-way"/manipulative male love interests as if it's the ideal. And it shouldn't be, for obvious reasons that authors continually try to excuse away through their purple prose. It's almost like they want to forget the kind of audience they're writing for.
Thank you! My Valentine got me that mug for Valentines Day! :P
I have to admit, that I don't read a lot of YA. But a lot of the YA that I have read does contain the "dangerous in a 'good way'" male love interest that you mentioned. Edward Cullen being the prime example of that... I guess there has to be some risky element in any romance to make it exciting, but it seems like YA often toes the line btwn exciting and dangerous.
You mentioned that author's almost want to forget who they are writing for... This is something I struggle with. I don't know if authors should 'dumb things down' for young people to save their innocence necessarily. But I also don't feel super comfortable about how YA authors pretty regularly present young people in relationships with power imbalances and then don't really talk about it.
Do you feel like an author has a responsibility for keeping their audience in mind while writing?
Emily Cait That's a great question. I think with YA it's a bit different because we're talking about books written specifically for Young Adults. They're marketed as such, their covers are designed to attract a younger audience, and even though a lot of older adults read the books, the author has chosen to publish work under that genre for whatever reason. I believe when an author decides to go the YA route they should take some responsibility for the characters they're presenting and the situations these characters face. Some problems I have with YA books in general are the invisible parents (most parents are nowhere to be found), that creepy power imbalance you mentioned in regards to relationships (specifically male characters who manipulate younger female characters and try to dress it up as love), situations where a character faces abuse but there are zero repercussions, ridiculous plots where characters magically make it through unscathed despite making one horrible decision after another. I can't help but think of YA readers being huge fans of these popular books, idolizing these characters, and thinking of these situations as the norm and not having that be an issue. It can be a slippery slope. So I do think if authors are choosing to write books geared towards a YA audience, they owe it to that audience to write books and characters with care.
I think I just found my new favorite booktuber :) keep up the good work!
This is an interesting set of questions, Emily. I feel the tension, and I don't know quite what the answer is. I read a YA book last year which disturbed me for exactly the same kind of reasons you describe, in the book high school age kids are smoking, drinking and cutting school left right and centre (these are supposed to be smart and together kids, who live with their families, and ace their classes, not troubled outsider types) WITH NO CONSEQUENCES. It wasn't really that I objected to the portrayal of 'bad behaviour', but I felt it was really strange that the author chose to put in all this stuff without any concerned grown up noticing and/or objecting. At one point I found myself thinking 'but where on earth are they even getting the MONEY for all of this? These are school kids! How do they possibly have a cooler full of liquor in their bedroom?' And suddenly I was feeling very old, and worrying about kids reading the book and thinking 'wouldn't it be cool to do this stuff'.
I must admit, I don't even remember the 'sexual assault' scene that you are talking about in Divergent; I don't know quite what that means if anything. But the relationship between Tris and Four being creepy, I can completely see how it could be read that way. I think a larger problem is that this is merely a single instance of a much more general trend in how romantic relationships in fiction are constructed... power imbalance (with the chick being in some sense at the mercy of the dude) is almost an erotic necessity in many forms of fiction. To the extent that, should something occur to elevate the relative power of the chick, you will often find the dude questioning the relationship and pulling back. Admittedly, I am not in any way an expert on romantic fiction, being as how I generally avoid it like the plague.
But as to whether authors have a responsibility to do better, I don't think I could happily sign on to that either. It really is the audience who has to take responsibility for what we consume and how we consume it. And when it comes to minors, the grown ups around them should be helping them to choose and question what they consume. Which is not to say that hard questions should not be put to popular authors about the choices they have made.
Ok, ramble over...
I really liked this response Jane. I guess there are often power imbalances in romantic relationships in literature. (I'm trying to think of a balanced relationship and I'm really struggling...)
I agree that the audience has a responsibility for what they consume. And I really don't like the idea of censoring material that young people are reading.
The more I think about this, I think what really bothers me, is that YA authors often hand out these 'mature ideas' without any follow up. Like, at the end of 13 Reasons Why (a book about suicide) there is all sorts of information and resources. Or at the end of Wintergirls (eating disorders) there are resources. But I haven't seen resources or information on sexual assault or power imbalances/relationships btwn adults and children or safe sex at the back of any YA book that contains that kind of content. So it seems like some authors/publishers feel the need to provide readers with more information and others don't.
I guess it's also a very different world now with the internet. When I was reading YA as a young person there was one computer in our house and we'd only recently got rid of the dial up internet. People reading YA now are much more connected with social media. So maybe all of my somewhat rambly thoughts in the video are not even an issue... :P
Wow. I totally didn't pick up on the weird power dynamics between Four and Tris, and I certainly didn't label Tris' attack as sexual assault. That's a problem!! If I, who read this as an adult, didn't pick up on those nuances, how many young people read these scenes and didn't pick up on it??? This kind of makes me sick. How many young women or men are groped, but don't think of it as sexual assault? The only way sexual assault can be eliminated from our society is if every instance of assault is identified and, hopefully, responded to punitively. And here's another book aimed towards young people that normalizes sexual assault!
I really liked the question you asked in regard to author responsibility. I absolutely believe when you are creating something - especially something aimed toward young, impressionable and suggestible audiences - you are responsible for the messages found in your work. As a creator, you need to take the time to examine any underlying meanings before you put it out into the world. And especially since Tris is set up as a role model for her readers, Roth should have been extra sensitive to how her character reacted to certain situations.
Another great discussion! Thank you!!
+Amanda Center (IntrovertX) I go back and forth on authorial responsibility, and whether it's a good thing, all the time. But in YA and children's literature, I think authors really need to think through what kinds of messages they are sending to readers. If the book included 'book club' type questions and resources in the back to spark discussion and address this moment, might forgive Roth. If no one in the editing process pointed out this moment as troublesome, I think it really says a lot about our society and what we consider normal/unremarkable.
I haven't read or watched Divergent, but I feel like even if assault isn't going to be reported in books, it should still be addressed and some time should be spent on the character and how they deal w it (whether they report it or not). For example, in the Sopranos when a character was raped, the storyline moved on pretty quick and it wasn't mentioned again. Also, I wanted to ask do you think the relationship between Ezra and Aria counts as paedophilia? I know she's not a child but she's still a minor. I found it uncomfortable when I started watching PLL at the age of 15 but most people seem to think it's ok. And to answer your question, I think that YA writers have some responsibility since many teens dream of a relationship like Bella and Edwards'. There should be some reflection in the book if there is a problematic relationship to make the young readers aware. There was none of that in Twilight. Great video btw!
eternalsunshine I haven't read beyond the first four books in the PLL series, so I can only really speak to what the tv show has done with the Aria and Ezra relationship. I feel like the show definitely makes Erza a predator, who knowingly engages in a relationship with an underaged person for his own benefit. I don't think that their relationship is okay. I feel like it romanticizes a problematic relationship. As her teacher, Ezra is in a position of authority over Aria (which I think bothers me more then just the fact that there is an age difference between the two). Ezra doesn't meet the definition of a pedophile because Aria is not prepubescent but I would be comfortable calling him a predator. What do you think?
Emily Cait Yes, I'd agree with that although I know many people wouldn't view him as a predator because predators are usually shown as creepy etc, whereas Ezra is portrayed as a 'nice guy'.
Ya I’m going to read this and nitpick all of the plot holes like Krimson rouge
I have watched the movie without reading the book. Mainly because there are so many YA dystopian there and I have read plenty of them but ended up finding them very repetitive. I ALSO find the same problem with the movie. I was annoyed by how frequent Tris and Four kept looking at each other and acting like they have that kind of uncontrollable attraction from the beginning. I mean not only is it creepy, it is also very unhealthy to build up a relationship purely on sexual attraction, especially Tris seemed to be such a meek and innocent character at first.
The sexual assault scene bothers me quite a lot too though I have to say this doesn't happen in Divergent only. A lot of books in the YA/NA genre seem to advocate for the plot line of having a "Prince Charming" saving her than going to their parents or police. It scares me to think that girls would not take their own actions when things happen to them in real life. But what if there is really no hot guys saving them, would they just ignore that or even think that they are unworthy and, as such, deserve this kind of horrible treatment?
Thanks for the meaningful discussion. I think it is also really important to discuss about the issues and conotated messages in the book, rather than follow the general hype and popularity towards it. :)
Hi Niki! Thank you for participating in this discussion! :P
I just finished Allegiant (the third book in this series) and it is actually said that the whole three books take place over a couple of weeks. A COUPLE OF WEEKS!!! The relationship gets way serious, way fast. Not that there is anything wrong with a young female expressing sexual desire. But I find it really frustrating when YA presents insta-love. I will accept insta-lust. But I'm not sure that lust would motivate a perfectly reasonable person to die for another person, the way Tris is willing to sacrifice herself for Four.
I do like how Tris develops as a character outside of her relationship though. She can be pretty amazing.
Modern YA is all about a special girl with a love interest. Whatever happened to books like Harry Potter and The Outsiders. Enough with the "beautiful girl doesn't know she is beautiful and hot guy notices her."
The media should not be responsible for raising children, that is what parents and educators are for. I was not sheltered as a child, I saw bad example after bad example in movies meant for my age and otherwise. Did it somewhat effect the way I saw or dealt with things? Sure, a little bit; but the stronger voice in my head was shaped by the people who raised me. Although I think it's good to have books that set a good example for young people (and maybe these should be read in school instead of the horrible example the characters in The Great Gatsby provide), I don't think it's realistic to always have characters making sensible decisions, otherwise all the books would be about well mannered boys and girls who get good grades in school and play frisbee in the park on weekends. I don't know about you, but I think I'd stop reading if that's all that was published. In life people don't always make the best decisions and I appreciate when that is shown in fiction. The best way to deal with bad examples in books is, as you said, discuss with others who have also read the book and make a point to address serious scenes, such as sexual assault.
I love this response, it was very well spoken. I too was very UNsheltered growing up, and honestly I feel like it made me a better person. I wasn't ignorant to a lot of stuff that my friends were, and having been exposed to a lot of stuff that other kids my age weren't, I feel like it definitely took that "urge" to rebel and "experiment" with some dangerous or not so great things away.
Skittish Elf: I agree that it would be pretty boring to always read books about well mannered boys and girls and that flawed characters and the dumb decisions they make are pretty important for having interesting stories. :P I really wish popular YA was included in most classrooms to discuss serious things in a more accessible way.
Krysten Ervin: I'm definitely not advocating that we shelter young people from the messier parts of life. I agree that being exposed to things that aren't considered 'age appropriate' is probably a good thing for young people. And I really appreciate that things like female sexual desire are actually being presented in YA literature. That is one thing the Divergent series does really well (in my opinion anyway). Tris is presented as having sexual desires, which is really important and empowering.
Emily Cait I hope I didn't come across as harsh, I wasn't trying to be! I was just trying to say that I grew up how I did and I love my parents for that. I feel like it definitely made me a better person.
Krysten Ervin It didn't come across as harsh! I really appreciated that you shared your experience growing up unsheltered. :)
You are smart and cute