Is hell conscious, continual, eternal punishing or punishment in the sense of extinction?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- This clip is from our series "Interview with Dr. Walter Martin on Cults". This clip answers the question: Is hell conscious, continual, eternal punishing or punishment in the sense of extinction? Are Garner Ted Armstrong and the Seventh-day Adventist wrong in their teaching on hell? What does the Bible teach about Gehenna? Why do Christians not believe in soul sleep? and more
Yep. the thing is that once I actually studied the subject and stopped just believing what someone else said, it became obvious. The bible continually calls it death, destruction, perish etc. over and over and over again and one single verse in the bible, talking about a specific set of people and Satan, COULD be interpreted to mean eternal suffering, and people stop right there and say, "Well, there you have it. Eternal Suffering!" And it is in Revelation (and all that that implies) no less.
Exactly, the most difficult book in the NT which is all in signs and from that book, ignoring all the other Biblical verses, the traditionalists want to be extremely literal. Next thing Jesus will literally be a lamb and Satan literally a dragon. These are symbolic obviously, like most thing in the Book of Revelation.
Man is Not a spirit. Man is a "living soul" which can be destroyed by God. Man can "put on Immortality" we do not have immortality now. Only God is immortal.
Wrong, men are a trinity flesh, spirit, and soul.
Man is trinity body soul spirit , our destination is either Heaven or Hell , our decision is decided on the born again experience or never believe in our saviours grace of Jesus dying for us , never believe and Hell awaits you .
So let me get this straight, A loving God who has unconditional, agape love for us is at the same time a sadist? i'm 28 yrs old. So if I reject Christ and die in exchange for 28years of sin (12 of those years are actually debatable because I was not yet at the age of accountability) I burn for 2000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years and beyond. Really? What great love.
Gen 3:2-3 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”. Question: Did Adam and Eve know for sure what it meant to die? Or was God not clear to them? Did God say Die, or did God say live in torment forever? Could it be that they did not understand this very important issue? Before they reached a sinful state, they must have been very intelligent, and in no way could they have misunderstood what death meant coming directly from God.
Gen 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. Statement: The serpent is the one claiming that Adam and Eve are eternal, not God. God said you will die, and the serpent is saying that you won’t die. Who are you going to believe? The father of lies, or the Author of life?
1 Tim 6:15-16 which God will bring about in his own time-God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who ALONE is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. Statement: Only God is Immortal, even if Adam was created in God’s image (and it’s only an image) Adam was NOT immortal because 1 Tim 6:15-16 states that ONLY GOD ALONE is Immortal. Beside not all of the attributes of God where instilled within the image of creating Adam and Eve. How do we know this? Simple: God cannot sin, and God cannot be deceived because of his attribute of Holiness. So how could the Image sin? Where was Adam’s and Eve’s eternal attribute of Holiness in connection with God’s image, so that they could never be deceived? Why would the attribute of eternal life be given without the ability or attribute to retain it? Where was the attribute of Adam and Eve’s Holiness, so they could not be deceived by the serpent? You can’t say the image of God has eternal life but then not acknowledge other attributes that are not present. You cannot pick and choose what attributes belong with the image of God, nor can you pick and choose what attributes don’t belong with the image of God. It’s an assumption on our part to do so, because the bible does not tell us with detail these things.
So then what is Death? We need to make sure we all understand what being "dead" means. What did God mean when he told Adam and Eve they would die? We need a finite definition here of what the state of being "dead" means. Let’s start by saying simply that, "Dead is dead"; it simply means there is no life, or it is a state absent of Life, or any life. To be dead means you are not in existence, period, you are separated from God, and that is where all life comes from. It's like the state you where in before you where conceived, do you remember that state? No, you do not because you had no life before you where conceived. Also look at it this way; by being alive you are not dead. You see life around you, you experience life and live life, and therefore you are alive and not dead. Life and death are opposites. You cannot be alive and dead at the same time. It is not possible. Now that we know what being dead is, let the word of God speak to your spirit by reading more of it for yourself.
One more thing for the record, we all know that Hell is a real place and nobody here is trying to state otherwise, and yes there is a real lake of fire, I agree that there is, so don’t say that I am trying to prove that Hell is not real, I know that it IS real. HOWEVER I don’t agree with the conclusions of many seminary students and schools that teach the outcome of the sinner in Hell. It is this author’s position that the ultimate outcome for the sinner in Hell, and the purpose of it is to DESTROY AND CONSUME sin, and the sinner, NOT to perpetually keep sin and the sinner alive for all eternity, hell cannot do that, only God gives life. Sinners have chosen to separate themselves from God and life.?
+John Brodt Just to pick up on one thing that you have written IE 1 Timothy Ch 6: 15-16 .... It isn't saying that God's creatures aren't immortal. It is saying that God alone is immortal in the sense that He never received immortality from any source whereas,in contrast, angels, men etc have been given immortality via God.
I have a question for all of you believing in the immortality of the soul: Can you explain to me the value of the resurrection of the dead, if we have immortal souls?? Why is so much emphasis put on the resurrection in the whole Bible, why is Jesus constantly mentioning eternal life that will be given to us, if we are already immortal?? The Bible speaks of the resurrection of the dead. Now tell me, if your soul is immortal, how can there be TRUE resurrection of the dead???...
I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question for me. If God forbid Adam and Eve from eating the tree of life and living forever. And they did not partake of the Tree of Life ,how can they live forever, eternal life is a gift from God. Through his son Jesus whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. The concept of eternal torment in hell is a doctrine of the devil. He wants people to believe that Abba Father is not really loving and forgiving. And that more people will be suffering for eternity ..them there are in heaven. That's not the God I have a personal relationship with. If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil you shall surely die. And the Bible clearly states that God is the only Immortal being
Walter Martin...one of the great and faithful teachers. We need people like him today...RIP brother!
John 3:16 is very clear. No eternal torture. You are giving God a bad name.
+democracyrules2000 First of all, Scripture does not say "torture" but torment. There is a difference. Second, the truly bad name to God is to say that Hitler will get the exact same punishment as a person who stole a candy bar, since both will simply die and no longer exist. Really? Is that justice? Hellll no! Pun intended.
Let's define terms here. Torment is severe physical or mental suffering and if that is for ever then that would certainly mean torture. Second, the one who stole a candy bar still suffer for ever but less suffering than Hitler???
+democracyrules2000 Defining a term in English when the original word was Greek does not mean you are truly defining properly. Regardless, the problem here is that when it comes to suffering in the spiritual realm, we are not talking about the exact same thing in the physical. Torture requires a torturer, whereas torment does not, since you can be tormented in your own mind about something without anyone outside influence. It makes more sense that someone suffers less in hell forever for stealing a candy bar, than for both to not suffer at all and simply become nonexistent and suffer the exact same fate, when justice demands otherwise. There is NO justice for the monsters of the world in the annihilationist world view.
Go ahead and define it for all of us in the Greek language. How is Torment defined in the Greek?.....Don't run from the real question. I like when you said that the person who stole the candy bar suffers less but it is still for ever. Like I said before only sick minds believe that. God does not make people suffer for ever. It is against God's character.
+democracyrules2000 I'm not doing homework for you that you should have done yourself. I think even sicker minds believe that Hitler and a person who stole a loaf of bread both get the exact same punishment. And where does it say that people suffering forever is against God's character? I see people enjoying comforts of heaven forever who don't deserve it (believers) and those rejecting God's love facing torment forever.
@aaa333ify - Look at Matthew 10:28 - "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - JAS Staff
anyone who believes in eternal torment for lost and unsaved people have been decieved by satan
Mark 9:44 For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. Matthew 18 It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the fire of hell. Matthew 25:31-46 Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Read John 5:28-29
God's Word says in Romans 6:23; "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Therefore, outside of Christ there is no eternal life, and the doctrine of an eternal life of punishment is false. Just because you believe something does not make it true, no matter who told it to you. Jesus said "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
Walter White
I just believe what God reveals to us in his Word. And the Bible says the lake of fire is eternal.
In the Old Covenant Law it said "an eye fit an eye" - Now we know Hebrews 8:13 says that Covenant is now "obsolete". It seems eternal torment is beyond an eye for an eye. Billions of years in torment seems a bit excessive punishment. People get unconscious all the time in hospitals. The judgement is permanent. That's the issue not the torment. Gehenna is never mentioned in Acts, John's Gospel, epistles nor in any of Paul's epistles. The writers who used that word did not even translate it into Greek. It is not an emphasis in the Bible.
The wages of sin is death rom 3.23 just like God said in the garden of Eden .the Greek word is Thanatos which is death . The soul that sins will die . The devil would like to say it surely will not . Man became a living soul ( creature) not an immortal being
Death does not mean ceasing to exist. When Jesus died he did not cease to exist, he was relocated to another place.
This man's reasoning fails from the view that man has an immortal soul that survives our body. Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:6,7, Romans 6:23, John 3:16 are all talking about the fate of the entire man, not just the body. This view is not supported by the Hebrew concept of what the 'soul' and 'spirit' were. Nowhere in the Bible is immortality a gift or attribute of the wicked. Only the righteous have eternal life after death.
Why don't we as Christians all get together or separately and pray that God would forgive all lost people and that no human would have to experience any eternal torment.?
Because not all who say I am Christian really are. These debates don't seperate but helps us look for ourselves. I was born and raised and indoctrinated as a Pentecostal but I now will never return to them for I found christ and his words. I was religious but now I have a relationship.
Regarding Rev 20:10 it is impossible to visualize the actual terms of this verse. The devil and his angels are spirits, not physical beings; fire belongs to the material physical order. How a lake of literal fire can bring everlasting torture to nonphysical beings is impossible to imagine. It is obvious that this is picturesque language describing a real fact in the spiritual world: the final and everlasting destruction of the forces of evil which have plagued men since the garden of Eden.
Walter Martin was an imperfect person as we all are. To believe, however that Jehovah Almighty a beautiful perfect GOD OF LOVE, RIGHTEOUSNESS & JUSTICE, would torture persons on fire forever is beyond error it really is the stark epitome of blasphemy. Jesus Christ said you either have everlasting life or you PERISH. JOHN 3:16. He did not say " You-Know what guys-- You are going to either have life with my Father & I in heaven or you will go into a fiery place with Satan & His fallen comrades to be tortured consciously forever. The punishment for persistent, and unrepentant sin is death- The absence & opposite of life I.E. NONEXISTENCE!!!
Amen, people do it to themselves.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41 there's only one way to heaven and that's through Jesus Christ hell is very real.
Jerry Shunk
Unbelievers will be eternally separated from God. Separation from God eternally is eternal torment.
If you have to twist words to fit what you are saying chances are you doctrine is wrong. God is not the author of confusion.
Read your bible people
@@ThomB50 you speak TRUTH !!
Matthew 25:46 has been interpreted incorrectly I believe by the traditional view as "torment without end." The context of this passage however has the goats going into everlasting punishment and this "punishment" is contrasted with the blessed condition of the sheep which have everlasting life. This punishment of the goats is also said to be " death" in Romans 6:23 which is eternal because there is no second chance or purgatory. Death means no life and not life in a place called hell.
Exactly, death occurs when God withdraws his sustaining power. Why he would want to sustain something he hates and then never destroy it and never finally achieve so called justice defies logic.
If the only way to eternal life is through Jesus, then wouldn't someone have eternal life without Jesus anyway in hell? I don't think life means happiness and peace, I'm pretty sure it's literal.
What is the opposite of eternal? Mortal. Therefore, those without Christ remain mortal and can be killed.
Thus, hell is not eternal punishment (for humans) because we do not inherently possess eternal life.
Those who believe in the conscious eternal torment, also believe in the immortality of the soul, cause otherwise it just ain't possible. But, here's the problem...The Bible offers NO support for the existence of the immortal soul! None whatsoever. It clearly states that the righteous shall receive the GIFT of eternal life and the wicked shall be cast into the lake of fire, which is NOT eternal torment, but complete destruction! You just won't be any more. That's why it's called the second death.
He forgot mention forever or eternal or eternity in both OT and NT in Hebrew writings and Greek writings did not mean endless but a non-specific time fram, an age, in short, so versus that say forever and ever are really ages and ages cause how can forever be more forever, thats like saying for infinety and infinety, it makes no since
Scripture says fear Him that can destroy body AND soul. Walter Martin isn't as astute as many believe .
Why are we worried about God destroying what man can destroy also ?
Nowhere in the old testament was there a concept of an eternal everlasting fiery agony for humans.
Genesis does not say we are created in the "spiritual" image of God. It says we are created in His image. Anything taught beyond "His image", is speculation or inference. It needs to be taught as such.
The scripture is very clear that God is the creator of everything that includes human and even the angels etc. That clearly shows that he also has the power destroy everything. The question is , why are these preachers trying to not trying to accept what's being said in the word of God as it is. Just believe the scriptures. Refer to all scriptures pertaining to a topic or subject. The simplest truth is that those who believe in Jesus and accept him as their personal saviour is already a saved being. Those who do not will not see life.
You're so wrong! Remember, God is the very essence of love, justice and mercy. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The wicked dead is separated from God for all eternity. As for being conscious in hell burning for all eternity, that is the work of a torturer. Finally, eternal life is not a matter of geography. Eternal life is a Person. The wicked does not have Eternal Life.!
The doctrine of eternal hell for humans is false. Some who believe this are saying some pretty wild things:
Some say if you don't share their belief in hell that you're doomed to go there. unbiblical
Some say they've been there and are sent back to warn.... which is totally false and unbiblical.
Some think that Satan and his demons are the tormentors....unbiblical
Some say that people are in there now. unbiblical
Some say to be in hell is to be in torment forever. misinterpretation...therefore unbiblical
Some say the souls of everyone are immortal. .....Ancient Egyptian and Greek belief. unbiblical
Some say Jesus died to save us from hell unbiblical....He died and rose again to save us from the power of sin and death not eternal torment.
Some say that if there isn't a punishment that people will sin because there isn't consequences.... I think even the people that believe this junk also have sin in their lives...so this cannot be the case.
The doctrine of eternal hell for humans is unbiblical and needs to be cleansed from the minds of those in the church who believe it. Believing in ECT for humans doesnt make you lost but it is adding a doctrinal parasite to the gospel that confuses and hinders and the belief needs to be removed from the minds of those that believe it....this, I believe is part of what God's Word will be cleansing from our minds.
James Larabee Excellent council.
Let's hope that if God exists he isn't really pure evil and has been feigning goodness. If he is really evil, then we could be in big trouble after death. I hope not.
@@kevinharrison5651 , I have actually had that same frightening thought.
John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth-those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
LOL this guy said that destroy doesn't mean annihilation lol.
here's the definition of the word destroy
DE·STROY=annihilate, wipe out, obliterate, eliminate, erase, put an end to the existence of something by damaging or attacking it.
And God will do just that.
+{Thomas} Thee Encourager Indeed. Jesus even said: Beware of the one who can destroy both soul and body in the Gehenna. Your soul isn't eternal, that's where he goes wrong. Destroyed is destroyed.
+{Thomas} Thee Encourager Your problem is you are reading or interpreting scriptures not in its original language while Dr Walter Martin used the Greek words to explain what scriptures mean. God loves His cratures. God loves His angels but mostly men. However, God's love does not prevent Him to prepare the Lake of fire for the demons to suffer forever without end. The Bible is so clear that people will not be wiped out in just one day. God created us in His image. God is spirit therefore men can not be just physical matter only. Even the doctrine of annihilation admits that demons are spirits and they can not die, that's why God will send them in hell to be tormented forever as a result of their sins.
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Do you see that the Beast and the false prophet (they are humans) will be tormented "Day and Night for ever". If someone is annihilated, how can he be tormented forever if there is no existence???
Note that Annihilism acknowledges that the verse above is eternal punishment without an end for the demons. So if the verse is true eternal punishment for the devil, it has to be the same punishment for the Beast and the false prophet.
Your argument seems to hinge on the assumption that the Beast and the False Prophet are humans. How do you know that they are?
Also, just because God states that the devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet "will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" does not necessarily mean that unbelieving humans will suffer that exact same fate.
{Thomas} Thee Encourager
{Thomas} Thee Encourager Just as YOU have a 'delete' button on your computer.....(hopefully)...God ALSO has a 'delete' button for those who 'displease' him. I will gladly take 'DELETION' over 'TORTURE'...ANY day!
The problem with this guest's argument is he can pull several verses out of his Bible and mean whatever he wants. Revelations verses for example, elude to "lake of fire"/ seems to elude eternal concious torment.
Even an atheist has the privilege of not worrying or caring about the afterlife.
Why even resurrect such a person just to show them what they'll miss?
Don't think for 1 second this argues for eternal hell! There is literally contradiction after contradiction after contradiction in the Bible and it's references:
Mathew 27:44 and Mark15:32: BOTH criminals reviled Jesus, who were being crucified with Him.
Luke 23:39 ONE of the criminals reviled Him.
Luke 23:49 the other ONE defended Jesus.
Luke 23:42-43 Jesus told the ONE that defended Him that he would be with Him THAT DAY in Paradise.
Mathew 12:40 after THREE DAYS Jesus rose again.
You're Gospel writers were 50-90 years after the time of Jesus in a different language.
Which was it, 1 Mary or 2 that went to the empty tomb?
Genesis 1:11 and 1:26-27 Trees came before man.
Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after man.
Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 birds were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.
Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, Eve sometime later.
How about old Jewish laws that were used to govern people at the time with acceptable ethics then, never allowed today; no Godly inspiration:
1 Corinthians 14:34, Deuteronomy 17:12, Exodus 22:17, Leviticus 20:27, Isaiah 14:21; just the tip of the iceberg! ...laws about rape, murder, slavery!
You can use John 3:18 against most of the human race if you're a Christian fundamentalist.
Go ahead, don't believe in evolution, believe in talking snakes and donkeys.
Go ahead, believe in eternal hell. If that is how God really is, even if you win, you lose.
When man dies what happens? God has said: "..for DUST thou [art], and unto DUST shalt thou return." According to this speaker what God really meant to say was: "for DUST thou [art] AND thou hast an immortal soul, your body will return to DUST but your immortal soul, your phantom spirit, will continue on, not in this earth but in an unseen celestial state or a hidden terrestrial state, until you are joined together again with another body."
Why not just BELIEVE what God has said? We, after we DIE, will RETURN TO DUST. Can a person exist or "be" if he is just DUST? Of course not. Hey, this is NOT "rocket science". All men who have died since Adam (our Lord notwithstanding) are DUST.
Also Jesus said: Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise PERISH. According to this speaker what Jesus really MEANT to say was: "I tell you , Nay: but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise continue in an the AFTERLIFE in a disembodied immortal phantom soul."
Why not just BELIEVE what Jesus has said? We, shall likewise, PERISH or simply DIE, CEASE TO HAVE LIFE. Can a person exist or "be" if he PERISHES? Of course not. Again, this is not "rocket science", guys. All men who have died since Adam (excluding Jesus) have PERISHED. They are ALL still in the GRAVE, still DUST, and still quite DEAD.
1Cor 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the VICTORYT through our Lord Jesus Christ.
We, the BELIEVERS are "victors" in Christ because it is through him that whether DEAD and in the GRAVE when he returns, he will RESURRECT us unto immortality and incorruption. We will come back to life, yes everlasting life, when God "breathes back" LIFE into our DEAD bodies. He will REMEMBER His own. What a wonderful thought that God never forgets His own, which is why He is called the God of the "living". The "dead in Christ" who are in the GRAVE are always in God's MIND.
Our great HOPE is the return of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ to REDEEM us from the GRAVE and to give us IMMORTALITY. Our HOPE is not to "die and be separated from our mortal bodies unto a disembodied phantom soul which somehow can maneuver through the celestial space time continuum until it is reunited with its earthly remains". No, our "hope" is in Heaven and that HOPE is Christ who IS in Heaven; our HOPE is not Heaven itself.
Why have a RESURRECTION if the dead do NOT actually die or perish? Mr. Martin's argument is just a philosophical argument based on his NOT believing what God has said about DEATH, i.e. DUST, nothing else. He ADDS to what God has said along with thousands of other so called "theologians". He is "dead wrong" on this issue.
Mr. Martin, you are DEAD right now and have turned into DUST. If you truly BELIEVED in Christ as Lord and Savior then you will be RESURRECTED when he returns, but you will not see him UNTIL THEN. We, all believers will SEE him at the SAME TIME and NOT before then. You will have to wait, just like everyone else who has "gone" before you, in your GRAVE. (Obviously Mr. Martin cannot hear me nor see me)
After DEATH there is ONLY the GRAVE; after the GRAVE there is RESURRECTION, the "first" RESURRECTION and afterwards the "second" RESURRECTION. All BELIEVERS will be in the "first" RESURRECTION. The "second" RESURRECTION is unto CONDEMNATION only, which will result in a "second" DEATH and the individuals' dead bodies being thrown into the Lake of Fire on the earth's surface, day and night being literal. The fire will burn till there is no more "fodder" to burn or destroy. It is a CONSUMING fire, not a magical/ mythological "nonconsuming fire".
This is not "rocket science" you guys. A person, a SOUL, cannot "be" or exist WITHOUT a BODY. There is no such thing as a "phantom" individual; they only exist in folklore and mythology of which the "Roman Catholic Church" has been the greatest propagator, along with many of her so called "protestant' daughters.
Hope ONLY in Christ and his RETURN; hope in the RESURRECTION at his RETURN. For there is NO HOPE in DEATH nor in the GRAVE.
Your right. Burning eternally without hope in fire is worst than torture.
The thing is you dont know the real meaning of the Greek verb basanisthEsontai
Enternal punishment does not square with finite sins. God is a just God, eterinty of punshiment for ~ 100 years of sin is not just. And nl amount of mental gymnastics will make it just.
Explain why Jose
Chris Keith finite punishment doesn’t square with sin against a Holy God. You have your hierarchy twisted.
Chris Keith
You are putting your moral reasoning above God’s.
Isaiah 55- God’s ways are higher than ours. The Bible says unbelievers will burn in the lake of fire, which is an unquenchable fire, and suffer torment for eternity.
Bors de Ganys this interview was also about the belief of cults like the Worldwide Church of God. He wasn’t there elucidating about the doctrine of Hell. You still ask a good question though.
rms 5194
Oh I see. Thank you.
Not to deluge you but a really good one.Jude 7"Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them in a similar manner to these having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL fire."The penalty for wickedness seems consistent throughout.
Unfortunately God did not ask you or I to comment on whether or not we think His ways are just or not. We have the choice of accepting the entire revelation as taught in Scripture or rejecting it. If you think eternal punishment is unjust you have not even begun to imagine how severe sin is or how incredibly holy God is. If you caught the smallest glimpse of his glory you would agree that all His verdicts are righteous and true.
How foolish. His suppositions are based on the pagan belief that man has or is an eternal soul.
Amen. Man is mortal. And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
A graphic depiction in 2Peter 2:6 "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly"
I would be quite worried concerning Dr. Martin's statements on this.
The Greek word for 'destroy' in Matt. 10:28 is: (ἀπόλλυμι) apollumi
which means to "utterly destroy", "perish".
not 'lose function'
+Artorius Castus I'd suggest you actually do some research on the usage of the Greek word for "destroy" in the NT. What you will find is that the good Dr. Martin is absolutely correct. For example, the wineskins in Matthew 19:17 were not "utterly destroyed" but continued to exist in a ruined stated where they no longer functioned properly. The same applies to the "lost" (Greek, apollumi) sheep in Luke 15:6 and the "lost" (Greek, apollumi) son of Luke 15:32. Obviously, neither the sheep or the son in both cases were "utterly destroyed." When you do the proper research, you find that your view simply can't hold up.
The only way one could make this verse fit with "eternal suffering" is if the Biblical context were that of the TV series "The Walking Dead".
Matt. 10:28:
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Here the context is already made crystal clear: God can (and will) kill the human soul in the same way the body is killed. If a person becomes a "zombie"when killed, half dead and half alive, then likewise with the soul, but this is not what it says. Matt. 10:28 unequivocally states that the soul will be killed in the same way as the body is killed. No zombie metaphor here. Death, plain and simple. If the interpretation "eternal suffering" is correct, one would have to argue that a corpse can feel pain for all eternity, but obviously that does not work.
Eternal punishment, yes. But no eternal torment. Both soul and body will be done away with for all eternity. This is what Scripture says.
This is really disturbing. Arguing that God would torture endlessly any of His precious children.
Not all are His children. The sinner is His creation but their willful sin or rejection of Christ makes them not His children. This is why in Matt. 23 they're referred to as "sons of hell". What's disturbing is to want to live bastardly & then try to blame the Lord for going to hell for one's own choice to reject Him & the Way He made.
in regards to ur first statement, i agree that through the punishment God's justice will be manifested BUT His mercy goes hand in hand, and i don't see how being destroyed in a lake of fire does not show god's justice because sinners are punished at the end of the day although not eternally which i would very much question as being just
Show me the verse where eternal damnation is equivalent to eternal torment.
What does it mean to reject Chist though? It seems to me that someone might reject Jesus Christ without understanding him- in other words, what such a person rejects is not Jesus himself but a misunderstanding regarding him that probably ought to be rejected- and so, it seems to me, that rejecting Christ presupposes understanding what he represents and who he is. So, it presupposes a correct understanding of him, otherwise it would be absurd.
Death: Anihilated.
Do not fear him who can destroy the body. Fear him who can destroy the body AND soul.
That would be God. The second death is, in fact, death. And it is not the death of the body, which is already dead. It is also quite permanent - eternal.
And what is this about satan and his demons? We are humans. We are created in God's image. He is not. Different rules. He is not relevant regarding our fate. Grace is not made available to him, but is to us.
1Timothy 1:17 "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
But most Christians today say "no, God, we are immortal too just as Satan told us. So the bad people will live forever and ever in torment".
but the Bible says its either eternal life or death but ur saying its eternal life (in heaven) vs eternal life (in hell)
My main issue with the whole burn forever doctrine is the idea that if I die in sin, I get a more harsh punishment than Satan himself? On what universe is that fair? lets say Jesus doesn't return until 2513. Is satan in eternal torment right now? So ok, I die today. I got to hell , You're telling me i'll have to burn for 500 yrs longer than Satan HIMSELF? If i'm not Mistaken Satan will not be put in the lake of fire until Jesus returns.
"Destroy soul and body" - Funny how they jump over that...
Walter Martin believed the the serpents lie in the garden "you shall never die " . he actually believed in the immortality of the soul . God said we are dust not we have dust .
I beleive the bible that says we were formed out of the dust and God breathed His life into each of us so that we became a living soul. So as Jesus is eternal our souls are eternal and that they have one of 2 final destinations
ric david You err my brother. We & no part of us are created immortal. Ezekiel 18:4. False religion teaches morphed variations of that first Satanic lie; You will not DIE. Think Hindu-Reincarnation-- Catholicism-Purgatory- Also our deceitful culture- Ghosts as dead persons be-boppin' around in night, which are in reality "Demons" out to mislead people.
Hello Jerry, what I said in no way contradicts Ezekiel 18.4. When Jesus creates us he takes the dust from the earth and breathes His immortal life into us, to create a living being. That breath into us is part of Immortal God it is what gives us life. When we die that spirit of God in us goes back to God whilst our bodies return to the dust. The soul then goes to one of 2 places, forever. Is that not what scripture says?
I'm curious as to how Jesus being crucified for 12 hours pays for eternal torment/torture/punishment. What makes sense is annihilation. ET is purely sadistic.
I'm confused to.. I don't see where the bible says man is immortal already.. I know the soul dies.. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.. I'm confused about, the body, the breath of life, the spirit of man, and the soul on top of that believers are sealed with the Holy spirit.. is mans spirit immortal? when the bible says, they shall never die.. I think of death as death gone.. not living... I thought Christ meant that spiritually too... I really don't understand...
+jazzy Angel Jesus said to not fear those who can kill the body, but to fear he(God) that can kill the bossy and soul in hell(Gehenna).
IMO, the bible is a book of Jewish writings and has nothing to do with a god.
Billof Rights if I were a Christian instead of a deist, I would choose Christian Universalism. Even annilation only pardons, not justifies God requiring/ allowing us to be exposed to the concept of sin by omission/ design.
Wasn't Jesus supposed to save everyone from "sin"?
Billof Rights if you're an atheist, you have far more hope for you than anyone who subscribes to the bullshit on this video. Even annilationism is slavery to the concept of sin.
Billof Rights let me rephrase that, not more hope for, more going for.
It means age, not world. Meaning the age of the old covenant. It is also singular. the plural for age is ages, and in Greek, the word ages is aiōnion.We are in the second age. The age of the new covenant. So you see, Christ was speaking of at least two ages.
Luke 12:46-48 tells us the difference between servants who obeyed and disobeyed, Where one will be given few stripes another many in punishment. For the Pharisees who took advantage of widows and showed off their religion publicly they will receive the greater condemnation. Mt.23:14.
Heb. 10:28-29: "Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? The law was to bring one to Christ to reject its testimony of showing ones sin is to reject Christ who died for the sin.
Luke 12:4-5: "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear him , who after he has killed, has power to cast into hell, yes, I say to you, fear Him!" Jesus is saying the death f the body is not the end of ones existence.
Matt. 11:23-24: "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." All these statements show that God will treat all in judgment with different degrees of punishment.
Some claim that the lake of fire is just a illustration of the grave and the dead go there. The best example of this not being true is the beast and the false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire alive Revelation 19:20-21. Clearly showing this is not the grave of the dead. Satan is later captured by an angel and bound captive being put in the worst part of this location.
While there are some groups and cults that say God annihilates people, that they somehow cease to exist after they die, this teaching is clearly unbiblical. The antichrist who is a man is resurrected after he is killed by Jesus’ second coming and then cast into the abyss (hell). In Rev. 20:7 Satan is alive and spends 1,000 years only to be let out again to lead one last rebellion and to be judged proving this is not annihilation. The angels who sinned in the time of Noah, are held in reserve in chains for judgment in the abyss (Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4). They clearly are waiting for judgment day. Obviously they do exist as spirits and so does man after he dies. God does not annihilate people, He respects the creatures he created and their own choice so much that he will never take their life away. He's not going to take their consciousness away either because they didn't go His way. The question comes up, if He doesn't annihilate, why doesn't He just reform them instead of punish them when they're disobedient? C. S. Lewis wrote, "To be cured against one's will is to be put on a level with those who have not reached the age of reason." It's like being classed with infants and domestic animals. To be punished ever severely because we have deserved it, that we should know better, it is to treat us as humans made in God's image. It is immoral to force reformation on someone against their will so a reformatory concept is really what is inhumane. Punishment is the most humane and loving thing God can do. Justice demands punishment for those who hurt others and break eternal laws. There is no eternal reformatory, but there is a temporary one which is called life. In a lifetime, if one does not reform, repent and go God's way, then the day of reformation is over and the day of justice and punishment begins, which will last longer than a billion lifetimes.
"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb 9:27)
Matt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." This word destroy is not used in physical sense but bringing to ruin what one once had.
Or when the demon possessed man cried out Matt 8:29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time? "Again in another incident a demon asks, "I beg you, do not torment me! Vs. 31"And they begged him that he would not command them to out into the abyss." So even the spirits who once knew God are afraid to go to this place.
Rev 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." it clearly does not say annihilated!
www.letusreason.org/doct12.htm
The wicked are consumed and exist no more:
Pss.104
[35] Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul.
You interpret Rev 20:10 as though the souls of men are immortal and read that into the verse. Start first with Genesis not Revelation and discover the lie of Satan that man could sin and still be immortal and live forever. God said, the day you eat of the forbidden fruit you shall die. Man lost his immortality because it was conditioned upon obedience & a sinless life. If you study the Bible you'll see that only God has immortality and those to whom God gives it by the new birth. 1 Tim 6:6
He fails to distinguish between final states and intermediate states.
Walter Martin's arguments for unbelievers suffering an eternal torment in hell are weak. The whole idea is based on the soul being immortal but God said the soul that sins shall die or perish. This is the opposite of eternal life not torment in a place called hell forever. Such misreadings of scripture do not harmonize with God's mercy, love and kindness. God could be perfectly just and annihilate all the wicked. Immortality is a gift given only to those in Christ Jesus not to unbelievers.
@kingdavey16 Because the Scriptures say it's His will that none should perish and that all come to repentance. That's His will and His will is stronger than ours. If it's not, we've got a big problem.
The idea of hell being a place for the wicked who suffer eternal torment is the traditional view which is currently undergoing serious challenge.It's based on the presupposition that the soul is immortal but where does the Bible teach the soul of the wicked is immortal? Nowhere, that I'm aware of but it does teach that immortality is conditioned on being born again and receiving the nature of Christ who is immortal.The Lake of Fire is the second death and is a picture of annihilation soul& body.
wow, Dr. Martin seems to miss the point of "absent from body, present with the Lord" - it could easily mean, "next thing you know..."; or, "as it will seem..." eg, when we die, "next thing you know" [after sleep] we wake up with the Lord. i do not understand how a world renowned teacher could piece together so many Scriptures and arrive at a conclusion that, in my short 30+ years of studying the bible, does not support the best interpretation of God's Word or his character.
What do you think eternal (aionos) means in John 3:16? What Lexicon/Dictionary are you using?
Accepted :)
Philippians 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind. 3 [Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
I'm not an expert but I think throughout the Bible, from the Genesis till the Revelations, it is very clearly stated that the wage of sin is death and sinners who do not repent to Christ will die not stay in some type of torture chamber - an idea which I think was created in medieval times by misinterpreting the metaphors in the New Testament.
Eternal torment for not believing in an event that took place 2000+ years ago. Or for not believing in something for which there is no real evidence for. Sheesh. Life's hard enough then I'm going to be eternally tormented. Great God this one is.
Jason Jackson THAT thinking is exactly what should clue people in that eternal torture is a blatant, bald-faced,blasphemous,Satanic LIE!
If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Scripture? Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament? Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why? Because the best scholarship demands it! The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe . The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word. Jesus never spoke the European word Hell but He spoke the Greek word Gehenna in every one of the gospels. Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles distorting the truth? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity. If Hell as a place of everlasting tortures was the real fate of all mankind unless they did something here on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal life being forever tortured in burning fire and brimstone. If Hell was real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law.
Well, if we compare it with Revelation 14:11, we see that the smoke of their torment ascends forever. How can there be smoke from a torment which has ceased?
So many skeptics forget a single snag that throws the whole you can't possibly go to heaven or hell right away stance a massive curve-ball. It is called We are time-bound beings, but God (and all life outside of our human experience) is eternal. He already existed at the end of what we call "time". We die, then pass into eternity where time has no bearing and God knows the end from the beginning. In God's economy, we have already been resurrected and judged. We are so limited in our thinking
This passage clearly states the wicked shall be no more. One cannot be if they are alive. Thier spirit is dead.
Pss.104
[35] Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul.
The wicked are consumed. Consumption means to be used up and gone:
Isa.1
[28] And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall
be consumed.
Around 1:30 the speaker makes a large mistake. He says that man is a physical and spiritual being. That part is right, BUT, the human cannot be living until God breathes into him. This is important to note: i.e.: Man cannot be "man" until he has BOTH spirit and body.
Also, to believe that God will torment anyone forever is just to believe the first lie of Satan: "You shall not surely die".
Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" INTO EVERLASTING FIRE.
Matthew 3:12 "whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 "who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; " EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION.
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.
DAY AND NIGHT. How else can it be said other than that?
Obviously it says day and night, forever and ever so that we understand it is really forever refuting any questioning of wether or not it is really forever as stated in the scripture. C'mon guys
Sacrifices to God were consumed, thus to be no more. The same is true of the spirit:
2Mac.2
[10] And as when Moses prayed unto the Lord, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the sacrifices: even so
prayed Solomon also, and the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offerings.
[11] And Moses said, Because the sin offering was not to be eaten, it was consumed.
Theres no doubt; God is able to do what you're saying. He's all powerful. The question is....will He do that? I believe the answer is no. If eternal torment is what God wants or needs us to experience to pay for our sins thenJesus would be in eternal torment for us at this moment. But the penalty Jesus paid is death. He conqured death. ...so to us death has no eternal hold or consequence.... to the lost; death will be eternal.... but no eternal torment. In the Bible; his is bias language.... not from the Greek language but from the interpreters.. its a mess. Eternal torment is not the way God will deal with lost mankind.
this subject matter about an eternal punishing torture chamber of fire is turning me off christianity.
i dont believe its in gods character to keep people alive to torture them.
i will never live my life without lord jesus as a part of it but i just dont feel comfortable knowing that such a place could exist.
complete death and destruction would be a merciful way to end sinners and the devil and its angels.
not eternal torture
matty stuart Matthew my boy, Jehovah's Witnesses have the true Christian Understandings by far over the rest of claimed Christian teachings. 100 Years ago they publicized ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE OF doctrines such as eternal Hellfire. If you want true Christianity, please check out JW.ORG.
matty stuart It ,(Conscious Torture in Hellfire), is not a true Christian teaching. JWS have the truth.
Walter there are other ways the scriptures can be interpreted as far as the words eternal and torment can be interpreted. Eternal torment doesn't sound like God. Theres other scripture that must be interpreted in light of Gods nature,as this does. I use to believe in everlasting torment until I found out there is room for question. Eternal Hell doctrine comes from the Greeks. It doesn't belong within how our Lord is redeeming man. Please revirew this belief. Satan has Beebe distorting God's judgement since the beginning... it didn't mea eternal torment back then and doesn't belong now. Please sir review. God didn't prepare this place for Satan and his angels to have an after thought of including mankind.
''For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know NOT any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.'' Ecclesiastes 9:5. Or are all the wicked that died so far writhing in torment as we speak, due to their ''immortal soul''?? I think not.
Non consuming fire in the Bible is associated with God's grace and protection. Think of the burning bush and Daniel's 3 friends who were not consumed in the furnace. This view totally perverts God's wonderful image. A bit like suggesting Genesis 22 demonstrates that God is into child sacrifice. We know it is a picture of what he would do by dying for us. Note: Jesus died for our sins, wasn't eternally tormented.
Revelation 20:10 indicates that the Lake of Fire torments its subjects for ever and ever, the same period of time God is worshiped; the saints reign, and Jesus lives (all forever and ever). In Revelation 20:15 those who are lost are also consigned to the Lake of Fire, which according to Jesus is for the Devil and His angels. If people follow and serve Satan they will join Him, same goes for those who follow and serve Jesus; we will be with Him for eternity.
So many Christians forget a single snag that throws the whole hell and heaven right after death stance a massive curve-ball. It is called The Resurrection and Judgement of the Dead. Kind of pointless burning in hell or enjoying heaven right after death when you are going to be resurrected at the end of time to be judged by Christ
Our God is a cosuming fire.its spiritual, its not a literal fire,How can you burn a spirit in a literal fire .it can,t be done
What's hard for people to understand is the idea that a God of love, would allow someone to suffer in hell both day and night for all eternity.
People have to understand that God does not put anyone in hell, people place themselves there by their free will and choice.
God went as far as guaranteeing a way out for anyone willing to except it and that way is Jesus Christ.
These guys need to get a different suit and hair style than the ones they had in the seventies. And by the way, Aionion simply means 'lasting for an age' it doesn't have anything at all to do with the idea of 'eternity'
Good man! Good to see someone who has done their research.
+Matthew Michaelson Nonsense. If you do a study of just the Greek word's usage in the NT, you'll know that's complete foolishness, as the word also has been applied to the "eternity" of God. And God is eternal, not "lasting for an age."
CRoadwarrior ok then. Give me a specific verse where aion or aionion is used as you claim, and lets look into it.
+Matthew Michaelson All you have to do is look up "eternal" in a concordance and see where the Greek word applies to the eternality of God and His glory. It's not that hard, which is why I could not believe your claim when I read it.
First i'm not denying the gift but I also refuse to characterize my loving God as a sadist. The doctrine of eternal punishment isn't even practical. explain , seriously explain to me the justice of a sinner being punished more harshly and longer than the other of sin. Satan
@Viper81766 You need to learn Hebrew and Greek before you say what you think is taught in scripture.
i need to mention something here, the book of revelation is a symbolic book and it is to be interpreted appropriately. If you read the verse before it says "the same shall drink of the WINE of the WRATH of God", is that literally going to happen? no, chapter 15:1 tells us what it is the seven last plagues. So if the previous verse is not literal and the whole context is not literal then verse 11 is not literal for do you believe that literal smoke is gonna ascend up forever and ever?
Why would you purposely put human beings into a corrupt and imperfect world to start with, and then punish them for all eternity for not being able to function correctly in such an environment?
No Walter...hell is Not eternal torment for lost mankind. This belief has Greek roots....the wages of sin is death...not eternal punishment and torture in hell.
YES JAMES! hallelujah! Thank you for speaking the truth. The love of God is what draws throughout all of time, HELL is literally a place of punishment within the mind of the person that is punishing themselves. Example: depression is a form of hell. If people really understood this, the world would transform. (Oh by the way, that transformation would include no more money, instead the world would share all things.) "One of the problems is that the average Christian in the average church who listens to the average Christian broadcasting has such an oversimplified understanding of both the Bible and of church history - it would be deeply disturbing for them to really learn about church history." So disturbing, that the vast majority of modern Christians would literally run Jesus out of their Churches as a heretic -- calling him an impostor -- and not even recognize the purpose and objectives of the original teachings of Jesus known as TheWay." In order to fit a Messiah so that the people would submit to Roman Leaders, the Bible was tampered with. Now, you really have to search through the trash, to find the treasure.
Continue. Christ warned the Jews of Judea to repent, and He warned the pharisees and scribes that instead of an honurable grave site in Hebron, their bodies would be dumped in the valley where common dead criminals were dumped. In Gehenna and that is exactly what happened AD70 when Rome laid sieg to Jerusalem and killed over 1,100.000 Jews. This warning from Christ, Paul, John the Baptist and God,s prophets was meant only for the Jews.
Where is the verse where Jews thought you could go to Gehenna to be purged of sins to enter life? -- Everlasting punishment
***** Jesus never indicated anywhere that Rich man and Lazarus was a parable. Only sects within Christendom claim this was a parable to support their doctrine of soul sleep and annihilationism.
Matthew and most teach God is blackmailing us out of eternal torment.
All hail Azura Mazda!
@FAITHandLOGIC The way "living soul" is used Nephesh chayyah is also used for living creatures. The spirit can be looked at as the life breath.Nephesh literally means life.Our spirit goes back to God as it says in Ecc 12:7.Even clearer in Greek soul is psyche, which denotes our conscious,memories,identity. While spirit is pneuma denoting life,breath. So man has a spirit but will not always have it. A soul is basically him and he keeps it forever.
Paul wanted to “Depart [die] and be with Christ”? Phil 1:21-24.
Does this say that we get to be with Christ as soon as we die? No.
Paul taught that dead Christians get to be with Christ at the Second Coming. (1Cor. 15:51-54; 1Thess. 4:16,18).
A period of unconscious sleep occurs between dying and being with Christ which will seem to pass in an instant to those who die. For this reason Paul could covet death knowing that from his perspective the next thing He would know is being with Christ.
My "verse of the day" presented me with Psalm 30:5 a few days ago. It may apply:
For his anger lasts only a moment,
but his favor lasts a lifetime;
I admire Dr Martin Walter but he does a poor job rebutting conditional immortality. I wish he was still alive so he could debate Edward Fudge.
Edward Fudge was a great man who did excellent research in this area. Poor Walter wouldn't stand a chance against him.
there is no such a thing as an eternal soul in man . man is comprised of the earth.god said to adam for dust thou art (total composition and to dust you will return .. the wages of sin is death not consiuos tormenting life ..its time to put the torment doctrine to bed.
message from God to one of his servants
" My children, be wise and vigilant; do not be deceived. For I tell you the truth, from the beginning satan was a deceiver and a murderer; he has never been on the side of truth. From the beginning he sought to ensnare My people, saying, “You will not surely die.” And still to this day, the lie is widely spoken of and accepted, even fiercely defended by the churches of men for the sake of pride.
For they uphold the lie, teaching that whether one believes and accepts The Son, or whether one forbears and rejects The Life, all have eternal life in Heaven or in hell... BELIEVE THEM NOT!
See with greater eyes, for I do not change! I do not grant eternal life to the wicked in any form, nor shall the evil of heart see everlasting life! Their existence shall be taken from them; they shall surely be blotted out! There is no life in death, nor is there torment in My vesture, nor did it enter My mind! Beloved, the churches of men speak foolishness, and their leaders teach doctrines of devils!...
"
Peace with you people. Our only God is unending river of Love and Mercy, creating only for the purpose of Love!!!
Weird, all of those either mean the punishment (greek "kolasis") is permanent (as in final, and irrevocable), or that the fire itself is eternal. Neither indicate eternal torture (for human beings).
Instead, Rev 20:14 uses the phrase "second death", which is translated from the greek word "thanatos" meaning physical or spiritual death. John 3:16's word "perish" uses the greek word "apollumi" which means to destroy, ruin, and deprive of life.
I have thought recently about Walter Martin's analogical usage of a lightbulb as reference to our nature. I will use the same analogy to propose another viewpoint on how the Bible identifies our being.
In the case of a light bulb, the bulb can be intact. Just because it is an intact bulb it does not mean it will shine. It must be connected to an electrical source to shine. If the light switch is turned off, the bulb ceases to perform a function. The moment the switch is turned on, the bulb performs its function. A smashed bulb can perform no function as it can by no means receive electrical input.
In reference to our being, our bodies can exist without God's Spirit. That doesn't mean our body is alive though. Adam, though his body formed with dust, became a living being after God breathed His Spirit into him. The Spirit is our electrical source and our body is the bulb. Our soul is simply the combination of the two, producing a light source.
our soul.. could be like our person, the spirt is the life, see here: Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.. finally the Body must be the temple I assume: 1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? ..
jazzy Angel I agree with you on that. The soul is us, our consciousness existing; our life. The body is a verse or temple that contains our soul and the spirit is the life of the soul.
I respect Walter Martin, but I disagree with him on this.
The wicked die. It is a spiritual death, not a physical death. To die is to be no more:
Matt.15
[4] For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the
death.
The wicked are consumed. Consumption means to be used up, to be gone, to exist no more:
Psalms 37
[9] For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
[10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Greek philosophy says the soul is imortal. False. So much for apologetics.
lots of loyal commenters on here , but no one is answering the comments for the video. Where's the poster??
No support? I suppose Jesus telling the thief: "Today you will be with Me in paradise"(Luke 23:43) isn't support? "Absent from the body is present with the Lord."(2 Cor. 5:8). "I desire to DEPART AND BE WITH CHRIST, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Phil. 1:23-24).
Jesus and those writing the new testament used plain language for plain people. Death means death. Destruction means destruction. Perish means perish.
And the condition is permanent - eternal.