Tbh it’s a decent table saw, the limitation are it’s fence ( I’ve fitted an Indra version) and the spigot size on the arbor. It’s 1’ (25.4mm) and most blades are 30mm so you have get a reducing ring. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment 👍
Hey thanks man I didn't know about the Incra system. It looks really great, I think I'm going to buy it. Do you know if it would work alongside a sliding table attachment?@@Phenrica
Hi Steve, thankyou for the video on the SIP table saw, i have this table saw in my workshop and would use it often, i design and make bespoke modern furniture. For the money this saw is great value, powerful, good flat cast table and a fairly good fence, all in all a great saw, I heard a friend say that he had an SIP 10 and after a few years of use he sold it to a fellow woodworker and about seven years after sale he past by the gentleman who bought the table saw only to find that it was still going strong and working within a busy joinery shop, so although not a perfect table saw it's a solid machine. Regards Louie Ulster Workshops uk
Louie's Workshop Thanks for the watch and comment Louie, the SIP saw is definitely value for money in my opinion and apart from the fiddly throat plate it’s a great performer. Cheers Steve 👍🏻
You've got a cast iron top, so you could get rid of those retaining screws from the insert, then epoxy some magnets into the under side of the insert - should do the trick of holding the insert in nice and tightly.
Excellent review ! I have the Axminster version of this, identical in every way, I think they must all be made in the same Chinese factory, I also find the saw plate the only weakness of this otherwise excellent saw, I have reversed mine and cut up through it to make a zero clearance plate, the problem with the attachment to the bed is that it is so thin, and any other material other that the original aluminium or sheet steel leaves it very weak around the edges, but I see you get away with using MDF, so I will try that, the riving knife gains height due to the raising action of the saw blade, so the riving knife is above the crown of the saw, this prevents its use for rebating, (which is in line with UK law ), so I have reduced the height of the riving knife to give clearance with the saw at full height, I have also taken the crown guard off the riving knife attachment and made a "crane" to mount the guard, this "crane" I attach to the right hand side of the bed where it can easily be swung out of the way. The real problem is wood dust, I have not found an effective means of extraction, so I have to wheel it outside to use it, then use the air line to clean before bringing it back in. Chris B.
Thanks for your response Chris, the MDF and decent ply work ok for me as the throat plate. I use 12.5 thick material and put a 19mm rebate around to leave a 3.5 thickness which does hold up pretty well. The original one is a steel plate on mine and yep I’m sure the same Far Eastern factory are knocking these out for many a company worldwide. I always set my Riving knife at the crown on the max height when I use it, but do tend to try and have the guard knife in. Just got a good tip about using magnets in the throat plate to eliminate the 5 screw syndrome, I definitely going to give that a try. Cheers Steve
@@Phenrica : The magnet trick looks very good, however, the flange on my plate is only about 3 mm thick, no way to fix a magnet in that, and the casting around the edge of the insert area is also very thin, I did think of machining the rebate deeper on the milling machine, but the casting is minimal thickness and it would require a backing plate to be fixed under the bed, that would be possible but the whole top bed would have to be taken off to machine it out, the trouble with the thin throat plate is it is very difficult to get it laying dead flat, your MDF would lay flatter than the alloy one I have, I will have another look at it. Chris B.
Great review. Surprised that such a solid machine uses the fence it does though. I would have expected something a little more robust and precise at the price point. I have a small professional shop and looked at this model but chose instead the Charnwood 3hp W650. It shares some similarities and uses an identical blade plate which sits too low so I’ll use your tip of hm glue to level it. The fence used on the w650 I think is a better design where by the fence carrier is a cast iron sleeve running on a solid s/s one inch bar bolted to the cast iron top. It has an excellent micro adjust feature. A thick alloy bracket attaches to the carrier to which the main fence is attached with t bar screws. When locked despite only attaching at one end it’s solid. I’d be appalled with the 1mm run out you describe earlier in the comments section tbh. I’ve adjusted mine for a max of 0.2mm/m run which is the accuracy tolerance I find needed for my joinery work. Dust collection on mine is rubbish. This seems to be a feature of these Chinese made saws! Thanks for posting Steve. I like your no nonsense style, such a refreshing change from some of the ott shouty American channels!
Thanks Paul, sounds like the w650 fence is more reliable, I’m mulling over either replace my table saw with a Laguna Fusion 3 or get the Incra ts/ls fence system. At the moment can’t get myself to pull the trigger as tbh the SiP sort of does the job as I know it’s issues. Yep dust collection very poor I can’t believe how much sawdust gets captured in the saw cabinet! A once a month clear out required 😏 Cheers Steve
Hi Paul, I am a looking to get my hands on a table saw for the first time. Can't seem to make up my mind between getting the itech 250, which is a clone of the SIP, or the Charnwood W650. How's the W650 performing? How long have you had it? Does the sliding table stay in alignment? What about the fence? Does it stay square to the mitre tracks and blade? Will appreciate your feedback.
Great video, thanks for posting. I have the Itech version of this, fairly happy with it, it's my first table saw so I don't have much to compare with. One problem I have is the blade not sitting at 90d, it sits at 89.2d. It's one of jobs today to try and sort it. any tips?
Thanks for the watch & comment 👍🏻 in terms of the 90d issue there’s a couple of adjustable hard stops (bolts really, one for 90 and the other for 45)that you can adjust pretty simple to do though you’ll have to take of the access panels at both sides as I can recall. Good luck 🤞🏼 Cheers Steve
It's a cast steel table saw, not cast iron. I brought one of the cast steel side wings to get a hole machined in it to insert a router plate to make a router table and he said it machined really nicely, it is cast steel, since cast iron wouldn't have machined so nicely.
As the saw has a right-tilt blade : do you find cutting a long bevel weird/unsafe with the fence on the left side? For a right handed person it could be tricky
I move the fence to the left hand side of the blade and not found a problem, however I’m reasonably comfortable working left or right handed with my tools. I know my bro in-law whose strong left handed does struggle if it’s a more right handed task. So for me definitely safe 👍🏻 Cheers Steve
Phenrica thanks for an answer ! May I ask you for you cutting technique in case of such a bevel cut? You push the stock with a left hand/push stick and press it against the fence with a right hand? Or do you use a featherboard to keep the stock against the fence? It feels kind a weird for me guiding the longer pieces with a left hand,that’s why I’m asking. Thanks !
Daniel Good question Daniel, this has given me some thought and the answer is really it depends on width, length, thickness and criticality. For wider pieces I tend to use a gripper push block due to its pads enables a degree of sideways pressure I also use this for very thin pieces (6mm) though not with stock thicker than 20mm as the gripper bridges the blade. I tend to use my left hand to push so I’m looking at the fence edge. I do use feather boards as well especially if the dimensions are critical. Then I usually give them a very little tickle with a plane. In reality I assess what and how when I need such cuts, I don’t like to use the right hand to push as you tend to be looking over the blade and if anything flies then you’re in the flight path. I also tend to use just the riving knife without the crown guard so I’ve got good visibility hence out of the flight path. Hope this helps, you having difficulty or is it confidence? Cheers Steve
Phenrica thanks for such a detailed answer. I’m just about to buy the same saw but I was always having a left tilt saw, and when making a bevel cut I always push the stock with a right hand and guiding the stock with a left hand against the fence, but with this saw I will have to reverse the way of doing that as the fence will be on the other side of the blade while bevel cutting and guiding with a right hand makes using the left hand impossible. That’s why I’m asking you as a user to learn from the others. Many thanks again 🙏
Interestin saw, seems like you are happy with it? Is motor on it brushed or induction? Or could its motor be swapped for induction at a later date after warranty expires what do you think? I would be using mine in residential workshop if I get it so looking for something erm, reasonable 😁.
Hi, I’m quite happy with the saw, for the price I think it’s reasonable value. It’s good for accuracy and repeatability once you’ve calibrated the fence and blade stops etc. Not sure type if motor (3hp) no reference in paperwork re brushes just mentions the windings in the maintenance section (electric is witchcraft to me 😉) I’m sure a motor could be swapped but means dismantling the saw a fair way. The saw is reasonably quiet in terms of trade machinery so shouldn’t be too much of an issue in a residential workshop however It does need its own dedicated 16amp supply . Hope this helps cheers Steve
@@Phenrica thank you. Yes I have 16a supply, and if other manufacturers that make the same saw under different name are anything to go by, it may aswell be induction, but sip doesnt mention it, I did ask no reply yet 😁. Anyway I think I am going to give it a go, thanks for the update.
Hi, I'm wondering if you could tell me how many amps this table saw draws on startup. I'm trying to set up a woodshop somehere (in Africa) off the power grid. I'm looking to buy a power generator set to power my workshop. Knowing the starting amps will help inform me on the generator to purchase.
Hi, this runs on a 16amp fused feed so on start up it’s less than that but more than 13amp which is the standard 240v fused feed in the uk. Hope that helps
Hi Steve. Thanks for the video, which I watched about a year ago before purchasing the same machine. Initially I thought the fence on this model is terrific, as it feels so solid and smooth. But since then I've noticed that the fence periodically goes out of the square, sometimes by 2 mm or more. I was wondering if you've found the same with yours and, if so, did you find a fix for it. Cheers!
Hi, I do have my fence fractionally out of square to ensure that’s there’s no chance of a bind between the back of the blade or riving knife, prob 1mm most front to back. I assume that you’ve looked at the screws that attach the fence to the carrier? There’s some slight adjustment to be had there. Is the front rail and rear rail reasonably clean and free of sawdust? And finally I found that if you lock the fence and put pressure with a twist (sorry hard to explain) then the rear clamp can grip off square at times! So try to ensure when putting the lock on you push square towards the table and see if that’s the issue. Hope this helps, let me know how you get on. Cheers Steve
@@Phenrica Thanks for this detailed response, Steve, but I think I failed to make myself clear. The problem I'm facing is not due to my locking technique, which may indeed cause it to clamp out of square; it is that the fence itself goes out of square, requiring me to open the screws at the base and recalibrate. I gather from your response that you haven't experienced that issue. Cheers again!
@@TheNevron33 Blimey never had that issue at all! Is it slipping on the 4 Allen bolts on the carriage? Could try adding some clamps using some T track stuff. Another that I though of is the rear clamp tight when the lever is thrown, could try tightening that up a touch
We've got one of these in our workshop. Over the years we've had many carpenters come & go (There are 4 bench stations). None of us use the table saw in favour of our Festool Railsaw,s as it's just too inaccurate. The extraction is terrible, & the fence is a mission to get absolutely square. This is perhaps partly due to being badly maintained, but I still don't feel confident with it.
SP Y Thanks for sharing your experience, track saws are good and the Festool is up there with the best. Shame about your saw, the dust collection on mine is adequate though I do have dedicate CamVac attached to it now which has improved its performance but still some sawdust collects as the base. The fence on mine is good maybe a some adjustment required at the front and/or rear. Cheers Stevd
So guy in shed starts a review and says pretty much right at the start..”what can I say about it. “. Erm you are doing a review and that is the first thing you can say!
Terrible saw. Had one and got rid of it. Sliding carriage is a nightmare the has to be checked and reset every few days. Dust extraction is a joke the rip fence is flimsy and inaccurate. The wheels are terrible. Made of plastic + screws ring out. Also the blade had a serious wobble from day one. Dont waste your time or money
@@Phenrica complete lemon. You can buy a cnc sliding on Amazon for 300 or less depending on size and build your own. Worked well for the last 6 months until the motor burned out. Good luck my friend
So guy in shed starts a review and says pretty much right at the start..”what can I say about it. “. Erm you are doing a review and that is the first thing you can say!
So guy in shed starts a review and says pretty much right at the start..”what can I say about it. “. Erm you are doing a review and that is the first thing you can say!
So guy in shed starts a review and says pretty much right at the start..”what can I say about it. “. Erm you are doing a review and that is the first thing you can say!
Thanks for the review, it’s was helpful to see all the different parts.
Tbh it’s a decent table saw, the limitation are it’s fence ( I’ve fitted an Indra version) and the spigot size on the arbor. It’s 1’ (25.4mm) and most blades are 30mm so you have get a reducing ring. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment 👍
Hey thanks man I didn't know about the Incra system. It looks really great, I think I'm going to buy it. Do you know if it would work alongside a sliding table attachment?@@Phenrica
Thanks for your honest and informative appraisal.
Glad it was helpful! Cheers Steve
I have never seen that brand over on this side of the pond. Interesting saw. Thanks.
Jim Dockrell it’s a UK company that’s been around 50 years or so. Thanks for the watch and comment as always Jim 👍🏻
Hi Steve, thankyou for the video on the SIP table saw, i have this table saw in my workshop and would use it often, i design and make bespoke modern furniture. For the money this saw is great value, powerful, good flat cast table and a fairly good fence, all in all a great saw, I heard a friend say that he had an SIP 10 and after a few years of use he sold it to a fellow woodworker and about seven years after sale he past by the gentleman who bought the table saw only to find that it was still going strong and working within a busy joinery shop, so although not a perfect table saw it's a solid machine. Regards Louie Ulster Workshops uk
Louie's Workshop Thanks for the watch and comment Louie, the SIP saw is definitely value for money in my opinion and apart from the fiddly throat plate it’s a great performer. Cheers Steve 👍🏻
You've got a cast iron top, so you could get rid of those retaining screws from the insert, then epoxy some magnets into the under side of the insert - should do the trick of holding the insert in nice and tightly.
Fergus Neff Thanks for the watch and comment. Just love that idea and will definitely be giving that a go👍🏻 Cheers
Hi Fergus, took your recommendation and changed the insert to magnetic ruclips.net/video/2vByCM7IiaQ/видео.html
Excellent review ! I have the Axminster version of this, identical in every way, I think they must all be made in the same Chinese factory, I also find the saw plate the only weakness of this otherwise excellent saw, I have reversed mine and cut up through it to make a zero clearance plate, the problem with the attachment to the bed is that it is so thin, and any other material other that the original aluminium or sheet steel leaves it very weak around the edges, but I see you get away with using MDF, so I will try that, the riving knife gains height due to the raising action of the saw blade, so the riving knife is above the crown of the saw, this prevents its use for rebating, (which is in line with UK law ), so I have reduced the height of the riving knife to give clearance with the saw at full height, I have also taken the crown guard off the riving knife attachment and made a "crane" to mount the guard, this "crane" I attach to the right hand side of the bed where it can easily be swung out of the way. The real problem is wood dust, I have not found an effective means of extraction, so I have to wheel it outside to use it, then use the air line to clean before bringing it back in. Chris B.
Thanks for your response Chris, the MDF and decent ply work ok for me as the throat plate. I use 12.5 thick material and put a 19mm rebate around to leave a 3.5 thickness which does hold up pretty well. The original one is a steel plate on mine and yep I’m sure the same Far Eastern factory are knocking these out for many a company worldwide. I always set my Riving knife at the crown on the max height when I use it, but do tend to try and have the guard knife in. Just got a good tip about using magnets in the throat plate to eliminate the 5 screw syndrome, I definitely going to give that a try. Cheers Steve
@@Phenrica : The magnet trick looks very good, however, the flange on my plate is only about 3 mm thick, no way to fix a magnet in that, and the casting around the edge of the insert area is also very thin, I did think of machining the rebate deeper on the milling machine, but the casting is minimal thickness and it would require a backing plate to be fixed under the bed, that would be possible but the whole top bed would have to be taken off to machine it out, the trouble with the thin throat plate is it is very difficult to get it laying dead flat, your MDF would lay flatter than the alloy one I have, I will have another look at it. Chris B.
Great review. Surprised that such a solid machine uses the fence it does though. I would have expected something a little more robust and precise at the price point. I have a small professional shop and looked at this model but chose instead the Charnwood 3hp W650. It shares some similarities and uses an identical blade plate which sits too low so I’ll use your tip of hm glue to level it. The fence used on the w650 I think is a better design where by the fence carrier is a cast iron sleeve running on a solid s/s one inch bar bolted to the cast iron top. It has an excellent micro adjust feature. A thick alloy bracket attaches to the carrier to which the main fence is attached with t bar screws. When locked despite only attaching at one end it’s solid. I’d be appalled with the 1mm run out you describe earlier in the comments section tbh. I’ve adjusted mine for a max of 0.2mm/m run which is the accuracy tolerance I find needed for my joinery work.
Dust collection on mine is rubbish. This seems to be a feature of these Chinese made saws!
Thanks for posting Steve. I like your no nonsense style, such a refreshing change from some of the ott shouty American channels!
Thanks Paul, sounds like the w650 fence is more reliable, I’m mulling over either replace my table saw with a Laguna Fusion 3 or get the Incra ts/ls fence system. At the moment can’t get myself to pull the trigger as tbh the SiP sort of does the job as I know it’s issues. Yep dust collection very poor I can’t believe how much sawdust gets captured in the saw cabinet! A once a month clear out required 😏
Cheers Steve
@@Phenrica the Laguna 3 is the one I’d pick for sure given the funds. Great table. For less, a used sedgwick is also worth considering.
Hi Paul, I am a looking to get my hands on a table saw for the first time. Can't seem to make up my mind between getting the itech 250, which is a clone of the SIP, or the Charnwood W650.
How's the W650 performing? How long have you had it? Does the sliding table stay in alignment? What about the fence? Does it stay square to the mitre tracks and blade?
Will appreciate your feedback.
Great video, thanks for posting. I have the Itech version of this, fairly happy with it, it's my first table saw so I don't have much to compare with. One problem I have is the blade not sitting at 90d, it sits at 89.2d. It's one of jobs today to try and sort it. any tips?
Thanks for the watch & comment 👍🏻 in terms of the 90d issue there’s a couple of adjustable hard stops (bolts really, one for 90 and the other for 45)that you can adjust pretty simple to do though you’ll have to take of the access panels at both sides as I can recall. Good luck 🤞🏼 Cheers Steve
It's a cast steel table saw, not cast iron. I brought one of the cast steel side wings to get a hole machined in it to insert a router plate to make a router table and he said it machined really nicely, it is cast steel, since cast iron wouldn't have machined so nicely.
Thanks for the info, cast steel to also a more robust than cast iron 👍
As the saw has a right-tilt blade : do you find cutting a long bevel weird/unsafe with the fence on the left side? For a right handed person it could be tricky
I move the fence to the left hand side of the blade and not found a problem, however I’m reasonably comfortable working left or right handed with my tools. I know my bro in-law whose strong left handed does struggle if it’s a more right handed task. So for me definitely safe 👍🏻 Cheers Steve
Phenrica thanks for an answer ! May I ask you for you cutting technique in case of such a bevel cut? You push the stock with a left hand/push stick and press it against the fence with a right hand? Or do you use a featherboard to keep the stock against the fence? It feels kind a weird for me guiding the longer pieces with a left hand,that’s why I’m asking. Thanks !
Daniel Good question Daniel, this has given me some thought and the answer is really it depends on width, length, thickness and criticality. For wider pieces I tend to use a gripper push block due to its pads enables a degree of sideways pressure I also use this for very thin pieces (6mm) though not with stock thicker than 20mm as the gripper bridges the blade. I tend to use my left hand to push so I’m looking at the fence edge. I do use feather boards as well especially if the dimensions are critical. Then I usually give them a very little tickle with a plane.
In reality I assess what and how when I need such cuts, I don’t like to use the right hand to push as you tend to be looking over the blade and if anything flies then you’re in the flight path. I also tend to use just the riving knife without the crown guard so I’ve got good visibility hence out of the flight path. Hope this helps, you having difficulty or is it confidence?
Cheers Steve
Phenrica thanks for such a detailed answer. I’m just about to buy the same saw but I was always having a left tilt saw, and when making a bevel cut I always push the stock with a right hand and guiding the stock with a left hand against the fence, but with this saw I will have to reverse the way of doing that as the fence will be on the other side of the blade while bevel cutting and guiding with a right hand makes using the left hand impossible. That’s why I’m asking you as a user to learn from the others. Many thanks again 🙏
Interestin saw, seems like you are happy with it?
Is motor on it brushed or induction? Or could its motor be swapped for induction at a later date after warranty expires what do you think?
I would be using mine in residential workshop if I get it so looking for something erm, reasonable 😁.
Hi, I’m quite happy with the saw, for the price I think it’s reasonable value. It’s good for accuracy and repeatability once you’ve calibrated the fence and blade stops etc. Not sure type if motor (3hp) no reference in paperwork re brushes just mentions the windings in the maintenance section (electric is witchcraft to me 😉) I’m sure a motor could be swapped but means dismantling the saw a fair way. The saw is reasonably quiet in terms of trade machinery so shouldn’t be too much of an issue in a residential workshop however It does need its own dedicated 16amp supply . Hope this helps cheers Steve
@@Phenrica thank you. Yes I have 16a supply, and if other manufacturers that make the same saw under different name are anything to go by, it may aswell be induction, but sip doesnt mention it, I did ask no reply yet 😁.
Anyway I think I am going to give it a go, thanks for the update.
Obviously saws like this have induction motors, duh
Hi, I'm wondering if you could tell me how many amps this table saw draws on startup. I'm trying to set up a woodshop somehere (in Africa) off the power grid. I'm looking to buy a power generator set to power my workshop. Knowing the starting amps will help inform me on the generator to purchase.
Hi, this runs on a 16amp fused feed so on start up it’s less than that but more than 13amp which is the standard 240v fused feed in the uk. Hope that helps
Hi Steve. Thanks for the video, which I watched about a year ago before purchasing the same machine. Initially I thought the fence on this model is terrific, as it feels so solid and smooth. But since then I've noticed that the fence periodically goes out of the square, sometimes by 2 mm or more. I was wondering if you've found the same with yours and, if so, did you find a fix for it. Cheers!
Hi, I do have my fence fractionally out of square to ensure that’s there’s no chance of a bind between the back of the blade or riving knife, prob 1mm most front to back. I assume that you’ve looked at the screws that attach the fence to the carrier? There’s some slight adjustment to be had there. Is the front rail and rear rail reasonably clean and free of sawdust? And finally I found that if you lock the fence and put pressure with a twist (sorry hard to explain) then the rear clamp can grip off square at times! So try to ensure when putting the lock on you push square towards the table and see if that’s the issue. Hope this helps, let me know how you get on. Cheers Steve
@@Phenrica Thanks for this detailed response, Steve, but I think I failed to make myself clear. The problem I'm facing is not due to my locking technique, which may indeed cause it to clamp out of square; it is that the fence itself goes out of square, requiring me to open the screws at the base and recalibrate. I gather from your response that you haven't experienced that issue. Cheers again!
@@TheNevron33 Blimey never had that issue at all! Is it slipping on the 4 Allen bolts on the carriage? Could try adding some clamps using some T track stuff. Another that I though of is the rear clamp tight when the lever is thrown, could try tightening that up a touch
We've got one of these in our workshop. Over the years we've had many carpenters come & go (There are 4 bench stations). None of us use the table saw in favour of our Festool Railsaw,s as it's just too inaccurate. The extraction is terrible, & the fence is a mission to get absolutely square. This is perhaps partly due to being badly maintained, but I still don't feel confident with it.
SP Y Thanks for sharing your experience, track saws are good and the Festool is up there with the best. Shame about your saw, the dust collection on mine is adequate though I do have dedicate CamVac attached to it now which has improved its performance but still some sawdust collects as the base. The fence on mine is good maybe a some adjustment required at the front and/or rear. Cheers Stevd
It would have been nice to hear it running, noise quality and level is an issue with all carpentry machines.
WhiteVanMan Thanks for the feedback, to be honest it’s a reasonably quiet machine especially compared to some of my other kit. Cheers Steve
So guy in shed starts a review and says pretty much right at the start..”what can I say about it. “. Erm you are doing a review and that is the first thing you can say!
Terrible saw.
Had one and got rid of it.
Sliding carriage is a nightmare the has to be checked and reset every few days. Dust extraction is a joke the rip fence is flimsy and inaccurate. The wheels are terrible. Made of plastic + screws ring out. Also the blade had a serious wobble from day one.
Dont waste your time or money
which table saw would you recommend please?
Have a look on Axminster uk AT254LTS 2000 EUR
They have a few great saws.
Looks like you got a right lemon there!
I've not gone for the sliding carriage so can't comment as for the saw itself it works a treat for me.
@@Phenrica complete lemon.
You can buy a cnc sliding on Amazon for 300 or less depending on size and build your own. Worked well for the last 6 months until the motor burned out.
Good luck my friend
Seriously? Table saw review and you say,' well what can I say about it?'😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Hoped it helped you make your table saw selection decision 👍
So guy in shed starts a review and says pretty much right at the start..”what can I say about it. “. Erm you are doing a review and that is the first thing you can say!
So guy in shed starts a review and says pretty much right at the start..”what can I say about it. “. Erm you are doing a review and that is the first thing you can say!
So guy in shed starts a review and says pretty much right at the start..”what can I say about it. “. Erm you are doing a review and that is the first thing you can say!