They recover, but you DO still need to test again, as the rule states you test any unit below half-strength. In effect, you have the status removed at the start of the Command Phase and then if you fail the check again, it reapplies. The rule doesn't mention that you have to lose models/wounds again, just that you test below half-strength units.
Great video! Just a comment - The rules state that Desperate Escape Test is before it's moved: "In addition, if a unit is Battle-shocked when it is selected to Fall Back, you must take a Desperate Escape test for every model in that unit before any are moved."
I feel like in the current editions of WH40k. Battle shock has a little to no effect to the game. If unit is battle shock its will just go away in the next turn. This effect tyranid faction as a whole since it is theme arond battles shock. I feel like stratagem and faction of tyrnid has very little affection to the gameplay compared to other faction. However, may be this is just me overthinking it.
@@mamneo2 it's not have to be that effective but may be if opponent was battle shock by tyranid. It stay battle shock for all 5 turn,not just reset on next turn, or may be need to redo battleschock test to gain their sanity back. I'm ok with just that, but in the current gameplay it's too weak of the effect ofr the gameplay.
@@browncaramelboba8408 same feeling here. Like i have said somewhere, being battleshock is barrely an inconveniece since it doesn't make a unit less dangerous (when the effect are not just ignored...). And with how fragile the nids are, it's a big problem.
You should have to save to remove the battleshock instead of being removed automatically, like spell effects in dungeons and dragons. You save when you're initially effected by it and then stay effected by it until you save on your turn
Battleshock is pointless. All the abilities that cause battleshock are super weak. Battleshock needs to last until AFTER objectives are scored in the command phase. Then it wears off, not before. That would make Battleshock actually meaningful.
Imagine an army, described as a one with unrelenting bravery or fanaticism and holding their ground, even in the face of their certain eradication... and then failing a battleshock test and flee faster than rats from a sinking ship... The battlesock could decrease for time being, weapon and ballistic skill to reflect being shaken, reduce oc - like it does now, but the way it auto-fixes itself almost immediately is a bit silly. There should be a test during you CP to try and see if they are no longer are shocked, and if failed they stay shocked untill your next CP and only then an aout-fix should happens. But F no for fleeing.
When does battle shock clear in the controlling players command phase? At the start of the battle shock step? Ie after the ability step or is it before abilities? I ask because some armies have strats they can use in the abilities step, that can’t be used until battle shock clears.
Are there any examples of using Shadow in the Warp and how they effect scoring? I find every game I play and I use Shadow in the warp and there's always a discussion on when battleshock is removed or if it actually neglects victory points before applying battle shock that turn.
Core rules pg 11 -> You resolve Shadow in the Warp in the 1st step (Command) of the Command Phase, since it is a rule that occurs in the Command Phase. That's why it is important to activate Shadow at the start of your opponents turn. If any of your opponents units fail their battleshock test, they are battle-shocked until the start of their NEXT Command Phase and cannot use the Insane Bravery Stratagem to prevent this.
@@spacemanx9595 - Getting 0 OC : Counter by sticky objectif and +1 OC. And you can have sticky objectif on all your army during mission selection... - Can't use strat : ok. It's annoying but rarely worst than that with how specific most stratagem are. It even allow you to concentrate on something else or to keep some CP. - Can't fall back : I have litteraly never seen a situation where i would. The unit you charge often die or your unit get kill or is better staying in combat... Anyone in my group as yet to make the "fall back test"... So, except for the strat thing (and again, not really an issue), yes, it is pretty much irrelevant to the game. The only reason i remember it is because i play tyranid and GW needed a Crash-test army for that mechanic...
@@jean-philippehaufroid6425 - that is taxing your resources to counter it - is very situational, but it has kept an opponent from overwatching or interrupting charging units - hardly irrelevant if you need to remove the opponent to get primary or secondary points It is situational, but it can hurt an army with barely enough resources to do something. Any resource spent countering battleshock (including list building) is not spent on other areas of the game.
I really think if GW went across the board and worsened everyone's Leadership by one, maybe we would see a slight increase in battle shocks. But as they are now, it's an unreliable mechanic. And maybe thats the point.
One of the armies that I play most regularly is Chaos Knights - I use them a great deal (~1-4 games a week) and can tell you very confidently that battleshock with -1 leadership that triggers off of taking any wounds/lost models is actually quite strong. It works much better against Ld 7/8 units, obviously, but it usually makes a big difference in games, and is something the enemy has to contend with every turn. The same cannot be said for normal battleshock at regular leadership and triggering only off of “below half strength”
Does anyone know how the 0cp abilities work for insane bravery? The death corps of krieg Marshalls cult of sacrifice allows them to use it for free. Does this become 0cp and only once?
I believe that would allow you to duplicate the stratagem, but only if you've used it already in that phase. So you get a second use of it, but only immediately after you've already used it, and only if you target the marshal's unit.
It depends... If the 0cp ability has a listed stratagem name you could use it for free with the specified stratagem... A recent rules errata changed the 0cp stratagem ability where no specific stratagem is listed to be only usable on Battle Tactic stratagems...since insane bravery is an Epic Deed it does not synergise. Also insane bravery is listed as Once per game stratagem
Hmm about a squad of 10 needing to be on 4 models or lower to count "below half starting strength". Is it really this way? One could argue that a squad ranges from 1 - 10 models so the half way mark is at 5.5 models meaning 5 models is below "half starting strength". A squad with 0 models would be no squad anymore so the range should be from 1 -10 models making 5.5 the middle?
this edition feels like 9.5 rather than a full edition, half baked morale rules, constant updates and changes to armys (some hardly being affected by said changes) and with how many factions are just stiffled in playstyle until their codex comes out, i think im gonna find something different
As a tyranid player. I really think that the battleshock condition is better than in previous edition but is still not a big enough issue. While it block scoring (except when it doesn't as presented in the video) and stratagem, it doesn't make a battleshock unit less dangerous... Like some tank that, even battleshock, still get their inate reroll, abilities, etc... Which make abilities like shadow in the warp barely an inconvenience for your opponent while he still capable to massacre your army as if nothing happened... And then there is stuff that just make you ask "why" like abilities that provoc battleshock test during the combat phase... since the condition dissapear just after... yes, it block your opponent to use defencive stratagem during combat but those aren't legion...
Battleshock needs a little tweak maybe - 1 to hit when battleshocked or something to make it actually harm you. Its only mattered 2 or 3 times across all of my games
What about stratagems that happen during the command phase such as those of the cybernetica cohort detachment for the admech? Those are basically immune to battleshick unless hit with shadow in the warp.
So mechanicus vanguard are good to hold on an objective no matter what as long as they have that Technoarcheologist? Thats neat, but its a shame they're not too durable.
The only thing I would like to see changed is that if your already shocked you have to rest still to become un shocked. Makes weapons that can battleshock someone in your turn feel useful beyond just fishing to make a unit that will want to use a strat in the following melee your about to charge.
Yes and no. No, you can't without a rule that states so. Yes, if a rule requires specifically to take a battleshock in THAT moment, like the Neurolictor. Even if you took and succeeded a battleshock in your turn, a unit in 12" of a Neurolictor must take a battleshock test in the tyranids player command phase. Sorry for english but it's not my native language, hope it was clear
The rule easily could've just said "A unit that is Battleshocked cannot benefit from or be affected by any stratagem used by their controlling player while they are Battleshocked."
How would you even begin to reason with someone with the explanation of why you cant use Insane Bravery on Shadows in the Warp? To my understanding its very straight forward it calls for you to make the roll in the command part of the command phase. (Even core rules say resolve any abilities before going to the battleshock step) However the person I'm arguing says I'm just bending a poorly worded rule to make it in my favor.
Any effects that take place "during the Command Phase" are always resolved during the 'command step'. Since Shadow has this timing that's when it occurs. Insane Bravery is only useable during the Battleshock Step (after the command step has concluded) so Shadow will already have been resolved before Insane Bravery is available for use. It also means that once your opponent has started taking Battleshock tests naturally, the timing window to trigger Shadow has passed.
Thanks! And that's my same thinking, I just don't have a work around with my opponent because they explain, "if that were the case it would have to specify in the Shadows in the warp wording that it happens BEFORE battleshock", their under the impression it just has you do a normal battleshock test which I try and explain isnt the case. My only hope is GW puts out a rules etc or something to show "proof" :(@@TacticalTortoise
@@InsongWhangit does feel like you have to be leaning into battleshock in some way for it to come up. Which I think is fine but maybe needs to be made a bit more frequent.
It does happen. Unfortunately it rarely matters in a game, but I had games were it lost/won me the game. BS has an effect, it is too swingy and unreliable to plan your game around it. So yeah, plan your game like it doesn't exist.
@InsongWhang exactly lol. Out of all your games you've had ONE where it actually mattered. That's been my experience too. And generally what iv heard from everyone Frankly, you can play the game pretending battleshock doesnt exist and it doesn't change the game. And this is coming from a tyranid player. If one of my friends said at the start of the game "hey let's simplify this game by not playing battleshock cause I havnt learned it yet", I'd agree without a second thought even tho I play nids because it doesn't matter The only way it matters is neurolictors and that's only because gw made that their power specifically because battleshock did nothing before they existed
I used to be pretty down on battleshock as a concept. it didn't seem particularly relevant, but now that I've been playing tyranids, I love how it works. Interacting with it has felt better than any of the previous editions I've played. It does feel like unless you're playing against an army that's specifically utilizing battleshock as a mechanic, the baseline battleshock mechanics feel a little bit inconsequential too often or too swingy, but I think it's generally an improvement from previous editions.
Battle shock is very important in both my Tyranids and space wolf games. Tyranids have so many abilaties triggered on battle shock. Neuronthropes and neurolictors the most prominent. Space wolves have fall back and charge. But once you fail a battle shock test falling back gets very dicy.
I prefer battleshock to all the systems of morale I've seen in previous editions. I feel it would have more impact if it lasted until a player rolled a successful battleshock test rather than until the start of their command phase. Either that or default to a full turn, but that could get complicated to track for multiple units. How often does it matter if your OC is reduced to 0 if the condition goes away just before you score objectives anyway?
I love battleshock. As a Tyranid player shadows in the warp has won me games. For example, If my opponent scores primary at the end of turn 5 as they went second, I use shadows in the warp so when they rush onto primary objectives I still have that a chance to bloke last minute scoring.
Your opponents must really be terrible at the game that you can wait until turn 5 to use shadow in the warp. 5 Turns is more than enough to remove any synaptic bug that can activate it... Unless you thought that any tyranid could activate it ?
We don't play competitive, we play to have fun and enjoy a game and company amongst friends and it's not just saved for end game, that was a example. But I love battleshock it has won and lost games as a extra element to the game.
I hope the rules update this month.
Recovering from Battleshock on your turn shouldn't be automatic, you should have to pass another Battleshock test.
Yes I agree all my battle shock comes from my shooting phase once my turn is done its gone its so pointless
They recover, but you DO still need to test again, as the rule states you test any unit below half-strength. In effect, you have the status removed at the start of the Command Phase and then if you fail the check again, it reapplies. The rule doesn't mention that you have to lose models/wounds again, just that you test below half-strength units.
Great video!
Just a comment - The rules state that Desperate Escape Test is before it's moved:
"In addition, if a unit is Battle-shocked when it is selected to Fall Back, you must take a Desperate Escape test for every model in that unit before any are moved."
Great catch :)
I feel like in the current editions of WH40k. Battle shock has a little to no effect to the game. If unit is battle shock its will just go away in the next turn. This effect tyranid faction as a whole since it is theme arond battles shock. I feel like stratagem and faction of tyrnid has very little affection to the gameplay compared to other faction. However, may be this is just me overthinking it.
Leave 9th edition battleshock rules for tyranids: If an enemy unit is battleshocked by a tyranid, it looses units.
@@mamneo2 it's not have to be that effective but may be if opponent was battle shock by tyranid. It stay battle shock for all 5 turn,not just reset on next turn, or may be need to redo battleschock test to gain their sanity back. I'm ok with just that, but in the current gameplay it's too weak of the effect ofr the gameplay.
Compare to gladius taskforce, DA assault, or Wahhh. Tyranid shadow in the warp is significantly weaker.
@@browncaramelboba8408 same feeling here. Like i have said somewhere, being battleshock is barrely an inconveniece since it doesn't make a unit less dangerous (when the effect are not just ignored...). And with how fragile the nids are, it's a big problem.
You should have to save to remove the battleshock instead of being removed automatically, like spell effects in dungeons and dragons. You save when you're initially effected by it and then stay effected by it until you save on your turn
Battleshock is pointless. All the abilities that cause battleshock are super weak. Battleshock needs to last until AFTER objectives are scored in the command phase. Then it wears off, not before. That would make Battleshock actually meaningful.
Imagine an army, described as a one with unrelenting bravery or fanaticism and holding their ground, even in the face of their certain eradication... and then failing a battleshock test and flee faster than rats from a sinking ship...
The battlesock could decrease for time being, weapon and ballistic skill to reflect being shaken, reduce oc - like it does now, but the way it auto-fixes itself almost immediately is a bit silly.
There should be a test during you CP to try and see if they are no longer are shocked, and if failed they stay shocked untill your next CP and only then an aout-fix should happens.
But F no for fleeing.
When does battle shock clear in the controlling players command phase? At the start of the battle shock step? Ie after the ability step or is it before abilities? I ask because some armies have strats they can use in the abilities step, that can’t be used until battle shock clears.
Are there any examples of using Shadow in the Warp and how they effect scoring?
I find every game I play and I use Shadow in the warp and there's always a discussion on when battleshock is removed or if it actually neglects victory points before applying battle shock that turn.
Core rules pg 11 -> You resolve Shadow in the Warp in the 1st step (Command) of the Command Phase, since it is a rule that occurs in the Command Phase.
That's why it is important to activate Shadow at the start of your opponents turn. If any of your opponents units fail their battleshock test, they are battle-shocked until the start of their NEXT Command Phase and cannot use the Insane Bravery Stratagem to prevent this.
Imagine if battleshock meant you couldn’t benefit from leader abilities
yeah... As it is, it's barely an inconvenience...
super easy!
@@jean-philippehaufroid6425 ah yes going to OC 0, can't use strats, and can't fall back out of combat is totally useless lmao
@@spacemanx9595
- Getting 0 OC : Counter by sticky objectif and +1 OC. And you can have sticky objectif on all your army during mission selection...
- Can't use strat : ok. It's annoying but rarely worst than that with how specific most stratagem are. It even allow you to concentrate on something else or to keep some CP.
- Can't fall back : I have litteraly never seen a situation where i would. The unit you charge often die or your unit get kill or is better staying in combat... Anyone in my group as yet to make the "fall back test"...
So, except for the strat thing (and again, not really an issue), yes, it is pretty much irrelevant to the game. The only reason i remember it is because i play tyranid and GW needed a Crash-test army for that mechanic...
@@jean-philippehaufroid6425
- that is taxing your resources to counter it
- is very situational, but it has kept an opponent from overwatching or interrupting charging units
- hardly irrelevant if you need to remove the opponent to get primary or secondary points
It is situational, but it can hurt an army with barely enough resources to do something. Any resource spent countering battleshock (including list building) is not spent on other areas of the game.
This is why I want to scrap my Chaos Knight faction mechanics for a points decrease.
So a 2-model unit (starting strength 2 models) can never be made to take a standard battleshock test
Yep
I really think if GW went across the board and worsened everyone's Leadership by one, maybe we would see a slight increase in battle shocks. But as they are now, it's an unreliable mechanic. And maybe thats the point.
The only reason i like battle shock is that my units dont run away any more, other than that it doesnt matter at all
Except it does.
@@spacemanx9595 no it doesnt
@@spacemanx9595 youre a scrub if you rely on battleshock lol
One of the armies that I play most regularly is Chaos Knights - I use them a great deal (~1-4 games a week) and can tell you very confidently that battleshock with -1 leadership that triggers off of taking any wounds/lost models is actually quite strong. It works much better against Ld 7/8 units, obviously, but it usually makes a big difference in games, and is something the enemy has to contend with every turn. The same cannot be said for normal battleshock at regular leadership and triggering only off of “below half strength”
do you have to take battleshock test each turn even if you already passed in the previous turn?
Does anyone know how the 0cp abilities work for insane bravery? The death corps of krieg Marshalls cult of sacrifice allows them to use it for free. Does this become 0cp and only once?
I believe that would allow you to duplicate the stratagem, but only if you've used it already in that phase.
So you get a second use of it, but only immediately after you've already used it, and only if you target the marshal's unit.
It depends... If the 0cp ability has a listed stratagem name you could use it for free with the specified stratagem... A recent rules errata changed the 0cp stratagem ability where no specific stratagem is listed to be only usable on Battle Tactic stratagems...since insane bravery is an Epic Deed it does not synergise. Also insane bravery is listed as Once per game stratagem
Hmm about a squad of 10 needing to be on 4 models or lower to count "below half starting strength". Is it really this way? One could argue that a squad ranges from 1 - 10 models so the half way mark is at 5.5 models meaning 5 models is below "half starting strength". A squad with 0 models would be no squad anymore so the range should be from 1 -10 models making 5.5 the middle?
Personally, i think battleshick should resolve at the END of the command phase. It'll make incidental battleshock failures more impactful
this edition feels like 9.5 rather than a full edition, half baked morale rules, constant updates and changes to armys (some hardly being affected by said changes) and with how many factions are just stiffled in playstyle until their codex comes out, i think im gonna find something different
As a tyranid player. I really think that the battleshock condition is better than in previous edition but is still not a big enough issue. While it block scoring (except when it doesn't as presented in the video) and stratagem, it doesn't make a battleshock unit less dangerous... Like some tank that, even battleshock, still get their inate reroll, abilities, etc... Which make abilities like shadow in the warp barely an inconvenience for your opponent while he still capable to massacre your army as if nothing happened...
And then there is stuff that just make you ask "why" like abilities that provoc battleshock test during the combat phase... since the condition dissapear just after... yes, it block your opponent to use defencive stratagem during combat but those aren't legion...
I missed this useless mechanic(
Battleshock needs a little tweak maybe - 1 to hit when battleshocked or something to make it actually harm you. Its only mattered 2 or 3 times across all of my games
I'm getting that feeling when a rule starts to get way too complicated and starts moving towards bloatware.
What about stratagems that happen during the command phase such as those of the cybernetica cohort detachment for the admech? Those are basically immune to battleshick unless hit with shadow in the warp.
So mechanicus vanguard are good to hold on an objective no matter what as long as they have that Technoarcheologist? Thats neat, but its a shame they're not too durable.
The only thing I would like to see changed is that if your already shocked you have to rest still to become un shocked. Makes weapons that can battleshock someone in your turn feel useful beyond just fishing to make a unit that will want to use a strat in the following melee your about to charge.
plagueburstcrawlers have won me games with this so far
lol. I forgot Battleshock was in the game. At least AOS does it right
I thought AOS had the morale system like in 8th ed Warhammer 40k?
the stratagems say target:..... Just putting it out there.
Can you force multiple tests on a single unit? Like firing the corresponding castigator cannon/autocannon of multiple tanks on them?
Yes and no.
No, you can't without a rule that states so.
Yes, if a rule requires specifically to take a battleshock in THAT moment, like the Neurolictor. Even if you took and succeeded a battleshock in your turn, a unit in 12" of a Neurolictor must take a battleshock test in the tyranids player command phase. Sorry for english but it's not my native language, hope it was clear
The rule easily could've just said "A unit that is Battleshocked cannot benefit from or be affected by any stratagem used by their controlling player while they are Battleshocked."
How would you even begin to reason with someone with the explanation of why you cant use Insane Bravery on Shadows in the Warp? To my understanding its very straight forward it calls for you to make the roll in the command part of the command phase. (Even core rules say resolve any abilities before going to the battleshock step) However the person I'm arguing says I'm just bending a poorly worded rule to make it in my favor.
Any effects that take place "during the Command Phase" are always resolved during the 'command step'. Since Shadow has this timing that's when it occurs.
Insane Bravery is only useable during the Battleshock Step (after the command step has concluded) so Shadow will already have been resolved before Insane Bravery is available for use.
It also means that once your opponent has started taking Battleshock tests naturally, the timing window to trigger Shadow has passed.
Thanks! And that's my same thinking, I just don't have a work around with my opponent because they explain, "if that were the case it would have to specify in the Shadows in the warp wording that it happens BEFORE battleshock", their under the impression it just has you do a normal battleshock test which I try and explain isnt the case. My only hope is GW puts out a rules etc or something to show "proof" :(@@TacticalTortoise
Great breakdown.
How does battleshock affect guard orders?
You can't be under the effects of an order whilst battleshocked so it immediately cancels out any existing order.
Doesn't matter if you don't know what battleshock does because it literally never matters
I've had one battle where it did. Opponent failed half of his rolls from my Shadow in the Warp and it was a rough turn for him because of that
@@InsongWhangit does feel like you have to be leaning into battleshock in some way for it to come up.
Which I think is fine but maybe needs to be made a bit more frequent.
It does happen. Unfortunately it rarely matters in a game, but I had games were it lost/won me the game.
BS has an effect, it is too swingy and unreliable to plan your game around it. So yeah, plan your game like it doesn't exist.
@InsongWhang exactly lol. Out of all your games you've had ONE where it actually mattered. That's been my experience too. And generally what iv heard from everyone
Frankly, you can play the game pretending battleshock doesnt exist and it doesn't change the game. And this is coming from a tyranid player. If one of my friends said at the start of the game "hey let's simplify this game by not playing battleshock cause I havnt learned it yet", I'd agree without a second thought even tho I play nids because it doesn't matter
The only way it matters is neurolictors and that's only because gw made that their power specifically because battleshock did nothing before they existed
The hive mind disagrees.
A neat interaction is ignore modifiers abilties ignore the OC0 part of being battle shocked, because that is a modifier.
Indeed :)
I used to be pretty down on battleshock as a concept. it didn't seem particularly relevant, but now that I've been playing tyranids, I love how it works. Interacting with it has felt better than any of the previous editions I've played.
It does feel like unless you're playing against an army that's specifically utilizing battleshock as a mechanic, the baseline battleshock mechanics feel a little bit inconsequential too often or too swingy, but I think it's generally an improvement from previous editions.
Battle shock is very important in both my Tyranids and space wolf games. Tyranids have so many abilaties triggered on battle shock. Neuronthropes and neurolictors the most prominent.
Space wolves have fall back and charge. But once you fail a battle shock test falling back gets very dicy.
Cold outside Trevy? (Nose)
I washed my face before recording and my skin is SUPER sensistive 😅🔴🦌
I prefer battleshock to all the systems of morale I've seen in previous editions. I feel it would have more impact if it lasted until a player rolled a successful battleshock test rather than until the start of their command phase. Either that or default to a full turn, but that could get complicated to track for multiple units.
How often does it matter if your OC is reduced to 0 if the condition goes away just before you score objectives anyway?
the same as when your opponent has a +1 to OC or sticky objectif... Which pretty much mean never...
I love battleshock. As a Tyranid player shadows in the warp has won me games.
For example, If my opponent scores primary at the end of turn 5 as they went second, I use shadows in the warp so when they rush onto primary objectives I still have that a chance to bloke last minute scoring.
Your opponents must really be terrible at the game that you can wait until turn 5 to use shadow in the warp.
5 Turns is more than enough to remove any synaptic bug that can activate it... Unless you thought that any tyranid could activate it ?
We don't play competitive, we play to have fun and enjoy a game and company amongst friends and it's not just saved for end game, that was a example.
But I love battleshock it has won and lost games as a extra element to the game.
@@paulevans9135 You don't have to play competitively to suck at the game... But that answer my question...
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Red nose
I can see Battle shock going away in 11th, with how little it feels to empact 10th so far. But then again....