Big time - was embarrassing to watch. The other guy needs to take a step back and be respectful of the main host and the audience. I'm sure he has a lot of good things to say but it was really distracting.
Thanks for this content. It is confusing with both of you at the same time though. These have all been fairly confusing with both of you reading it as you go.
seems like they went back to how chaos warriors were in 6th edition, but yeah I think warriors seem like kind of a big investment in for what they do, and without the plate armor their survivability definitely takes a hit... seems weird because black orcs can get plate armor and have furious charge and choppa and are similar points... even though chaos warriors have better initiative and weaponskill I think I would prefer to have black orcs over chaos warrios which seems like a stupid statement to be saying lol
I get it from a rules perspective, but I can't help but feel like its dumb. The chaos warrior models are wearing the most massive plate armor in all of warhammer fantasy, but no full plate and no chaos armour? crazy
Throwing Axes (+1 Strength) < Throwing Javelins (move and shoot) Throwing Spears < Cavalry Spears < Lances < Flails I just don't like Throwing Spears in an edition where everything is grindy, but I guess you could take these along with throwing axes and javelins. Flails though. I would have preferred if they made Throwing Weapons all a charging precursor weapon. This is coming from someone who doesn't even play Marauders. I just like really good special rules and precursor weapons is a cool concept space. There is also a higher risk reward carrot. Javelin = Throwing Spear right? "The word javelin comes from Middle English and it derives from Old French javelin, a diminutive of javelot, which meant spear" Flails on Marauder Horsemen? Yes please. I know you guys like Open Order, but Closed Order gives +1 Combat Resolution for the front rank. Much of the time you will want Closed Order to win the combat. I never hear you mention that. Ogres with move 6 and 3 wounds look pretty good to me. Instead of comparing them to warriors, compare them to knights and they look cheap. Will have slightly less Combat Resolution but have impact hits. How does Troll Vomit work??
First off, thank so much for the review Steve and Ben! Good summary and i'm looking forward to seeing what i can do with this army Secondly, I will say that I'm a bit sad to see that some units didn't make it into the 'new' old chaos. I like the Chimera and the Manticore of course, but what happened to the Slaughterbrute and mutilith vortex beast? Even the Warshrine and seemingly the giant going away was a bit of a hit. Sure I didn't use these things all the time but I loved using them when I did all the same. Blood Crushers are missing too? Maybe we'll see them in the Arcane journal whenever it might come out. Weird that the monsters are gone but the Hell Cannon remains. I am a bit disappointed in the stat drop for Chaos Lords, though I'm guessing it probably makes sense when looked at the game overall. Still, Being only base WS 7 (If I heard correctly) means that the double +1 WS to hit on 5+ is kind of irrelevant. Only on WS3 stuff is it going to matter, and lets not lie to ourselves, anything with base WS 3 wasn't going to hurt a chaos lord even if they were to hit on a 4+. Would have loved to see them stay at WS 8, but I know everything is getting toned down a bit. Additionally, the Chaos Lord at WS 7 suggests the Aspiring champ is only WS 5? What did they do to my small games boy? Not sure why you'd ever take one if that's the case. even back in 6th they were base WS 6. Chaos warriors starting at 13pts a model is more than reasonable with only heavy armor. If they had started with full plate, it would have been a tad bonkers i think, and left no room for Chosen to be better. I do feel like Chaos is going to have trouble with elite units from some armies. Hammerers come to mind, as do swordmasters/executioners, as I expect they're going to be able to trade up effectively, even with chosen. We'll see though. Excited to see what shakes out! Long live Fantasy!
@@IronDuke_xX So I suspect I'll be going wall of steel with A fair number of Chaos Warriors. I've always been a fan of 2-3 blocks of them at 15 or so strong. punchy enough to take on a lot of things, but numerous enough that you can't just avoid them. I agree with Steve about putting a sorcerer on a chariot though that's not the only place I'd have one. Chariots as a whole seem very powerful this addition, though a unit of 7 strong chosen knights seems bonkers. Steve didn't mention if they are base strength 5 any more though. I hope so otherwise I think I have to go with lances. base strength 4, even with inbuilt AP 1 isn't going to be enough to crack a lot of units inbuilt combat res and force them back. Also. Warhounds. And ironically not for any reason I've seen shared so far. Sure they're good being pests but honestly I don't want them to fight, or even as dedicated screeners. I want them to be 30 point torpedo's that swing BEHIND enemy units. That way when I push enemy units in combats that I win, the pushed units take more casualties for going through the warhounds, speeding up the fight. Assuming I understand that rule correctly of course. So yeah, that's my thoughts. Also I finally want to build a Chaos Lord on Dragon. It's going to happen darn it.
@@iikkakangas2586 I'm guessing it's because of the auto panic test. combine this with the doom banner, sitting back up on a hill or something, maybe with terror nearby the target unit, and suddenly that auto panic is quite worrying.
@thelastchaoslord869 great info thank you got sharing. I havnt played since 7tn and back them 3x 15 warriors was my go to but ive no idea what unit sizes are optimal now. I was toying with 21 warriors bricked up 7 wide 3 deep, how do we optimize unit sizing this edition? Also, I get that the chariot is a great endurance boost and delivery system for a sorcerer, but don't you generally still want to keep your casters away from combat? I was gonna try my BSB on a chariot. Beatstick lord on Manticore any good as a budget alternative to the dragon?
Just thought of this. Not sure its true or not but if you put the bsb with banner of -1 leadership if you can see me on a hill then even units in combat will be able to see him. Combine this with terror causing unit in the combat and youve got -2 ld and now ld 8 units are failing on average. Could be super good.
Right now I'm thinking 12 Nurgle Chosen with Great Weapons and Plate, then maybe a Doom Totem to make it more likely to break enemies outright. 4+/6++ and hard to hit, who will smash the shit out of most anything in the game with lots of strong attacks, are unlikely to break but will make the enemy easier to break.
@@omnivision616 6th edition is the odd one out, yes, they did that apparently just so Chosens were even better than normal CWs. I guess a 5+/5++, asuming TOW still uses save on top of save, is still better than a 4+ flat on all situations so that might be the reaosn for this change.
@@Kayosiv I suppose they want to make the older, pre-5E/6E Sorcerer miniatures visually viable again since may of them wore robes and at one that I've seen was bare-chested. Still, do sorcerers get option to upgrade to Chaos Armour? 6E had that I think
I’m semi excited to see the old world come back as I never stopped playing 8th I will say these vids seem to not consider other army lists. It’s like they are reading the book for the first time. E.g chaos warriors are well costed? How do they compare point wise to the long beards (12pts), Hammerers (16pts), iron breakers (15pts), white lions (15pts), sword masters (14pts) or Phoenix Guard (16pts)? I love the enthusiasm as always from the channel
Thanks for the review but this would be much easier to view with just Steve talking. It's really annoying when other people talk over him/jump in, especially when they normally aren't as knowledgeable.
Hey there, i was wondering for a long time now, and hope with the rules you can help me, if Tamurkhan is possible to be played? I got that miniature and hoped i could use it for the old world, but from what i heard it sounded like i cant or maybe only as a demon prince?
Loving the content man it's great to see old world comming back and as a long time viewer of your stuff and mini war gaming it's great to see your channel booming :) I'm currently building up a warriors of chaos army (2.5k) for the weekend and I could be wrong but I don't belive you are restricted to either chosen knights or chosen warriors, army restriction have them both listed on separate bullet points with no condition to the other written as far as I am aware so I think 1 of each points permitting is legal.
Echoing alot of the other comments here, but PLEASE drop the co-host Steve. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about, but the constant interrupting is just off putting. Couldn;t finish the video.
Cohost was obnoxious in this one. Thank you Steve for letting us know all of the options
Agree, the point at the 20 minute mark that Steve made shouldn’t have even happened.
Big time - was embarrassing to watch. The other guy needs to take a step back and be respectful of the main host and the audience. I'm sure he has a lot of good things to say but it was really distracting.
Thanks for this content. It is confusing with both of you at the same time though. These have all been fairly confusing with both of you reading it as you go.
I think these overview vids may just be a one-person job 😅
Yeah Steve solo would be a lot more informative his friend just added confusion
This
So frustrating
Dude interrupting was a pain in the backside. You handled it well.
Great video regardless.
Yeah, it was quite annoying.
Does it seem weird that normal chaos warriors don't have access to plate armour?
seems like they went back to how chaos warriors were in 6th edition, but yeah I think warriors seem like kind of a big investment in for what they do, and without the plate armor their survivability definitely takes a hit... seems weird because black orcs can get plate armor and have furious charge and choppa and are similar points... even though chaos warriors have better initiative and weaponskill I think I would prefer to have black orcs over chaos warrios which seems like a stupid statement to be saying lol
I get it from a rules perspective, but I can't help but feel like its dumb. The chaos warrior models are wearing the most massive plate armor in all of warhammer fantasy, but no full plate and no chaos armour? crazy
I think to tone down the defensive stats of core units. Similarly regular empire knights are in heavy.
@@hypervigilante8651black orcs are generally a special choice similar to chosen
@@hypervigilante8651I think it works. Black orcs are better than warriors but worse than chosen
Throwing Axes (+1 Strength) < Throwing Javelins (move and shoot)
Throwing Spears < Cavalry Spears < Lances < Flails
I just don't like Throwing Spears in an edition where everything is grindy, but I guess you could take these along with throwing axes and javelins. Flails though. I would have preferred if they made Throwing Weapons all a charging precursor weapon. This is coming from someone who doesn't even play Marauders. I just like really good special rules and precursor weapons is a cool concept space. There is also a higher risk reward carrot. Javelin = Throwing Spear right? "The word javelin comes from Middle English and it derives from Old French javelin, a diminutive of javelot, which meant spear"
Flails on Marauder Horsemen? Yes please.
I know you guys like Open Order, but Closed Order gives +1 Combat Resolution for the front rank. Much of the time you will want Closed Order to win the combat. I never hear you mention that.
Ogres with move 6 and 3 wounds look pretty good to me. Instead of comparing them to warriors, compare them to knights and they look cheap. Will have slightly less Combat Resolution but have impact hits.
How does Troll Vomit work??
Demon Princes of Slaanesh with armor of damnation & Sword of Might tossed on are super fun.
What does it do?
I've been looking forward to this all week! I need more WoC tactical! Co-host not needed, really .
@50:00 How does line of sight work with flyers? Cojld you put the BSB on a flying carpet from the list of common magic items?
First off, thank so much for the review Steve and Ben! Good summary and i'm looking forward to seeing what i can do with this army
Secondly, I will say that I'm a bit sad to see that some units didn't make it into the 'new' old chaos. I like the Chimera and the Manticore of course, but what happened to the Slaughterbrute and mutilith vortex beast? Even the Warshrine and seemingly the giant going away was a bit of a hit. Sure I didn't use these things all the time but I loved using them when I did all the same. Blood Crushers are missing too? Maybe we'll see them in the Arcane journal whenever it might come out. Weird that the monsters are gone but the Hell Cannon remains.
I am a bit disappointed in the stat drop for Chaos Lords, though I'm guessing it probably makes sense when looked at the game overall. Still, Being only base WS 7 (If I heard correctly) means that the double +1 WS to hit on 5+ is kind of irrelevant. Only on WS3 stuff is it going to matter, and lets not lie to ourselves, anything with base WS 3 wasn't going to hurt a chaos lord even if they were to hit on a 4+. Would have loved to see them stay at WS 8, but I know everything is getting toned down a bit. Additionally, the Chaos Lord at WS 7 suggests the Aspiring champ is only WS 5? What did they do to my small games boy? Not sure why you'd ever take one if that's the case. even back in 6th they were base WS 6.
Chaos warriors starting at 13pts a model is more than reasonable with only heavy armor. If they had started with full plate, it would have been a tad bonkers i think, and left no room for Chosen to be better. I do feel like Chaos is going to have trouble with elite units from some armies. Hammerers come to mind, as do swordmasters/executioners, as I expect they're going to be able to trade up effectively, even with chosen. We'll see though.
Excited to see what shakes out! Long live Fantasy!
great comment and im intrigued to know what direction you are building your army in
why is hellcannon only d3 dmg unlike other stone throwers are d3+1? 😢
@@IronDuke_xX So I suspect I'll be going wall of steel with A fair number of Chaos Warriors. I've always been a fan of 2-3 blocks of them at 15 or so strong. punchy enough to take on a lot of things, but numerous enough that you can't just avoid them.
I agree with Steve about putting a sorcerer on a chariot though that's not the only place I'd have one. Chariots as a whole seem very powerful this addition, though a unit of 7 strong chosen knights seems bonkers. Steve didn't mention if they are base strength 5 any more though. I hope so otherwise I think I have to go with lances. base strength 4, even with inbuilt AP 1 isn't going to be enough to crack a lot of units inbuilt combat res and force them back.
Also. Warhounds. And ironically not for any reason I've seen shared so far. Sure they're good being pests but honestly I don't want them to fight, or even as dedicated screeners. I want them to be 30 point torpedo's that swing BEHIND enemy units. That way when I push enemy units in combats that I win, the pushed units take more casualties for going through the warhounds, speeding up the fight. Assuming I understand that rule correctly of course.
So yeah, that's my thoughts.
Also I finally want to build a Chaos Lord on Dragon. It's going to happen darn it.
@@iikkakangas2586 I'm guessing it's because of the auto panic test. combine this with the doom banner, sitting back up on a hill or something, maybe with terror nearby the target unit, and suddenly that auto panic is quite worrying.
@thelastchaoslord869 great info thank you got sharing. I havnt played since 7tn and back them 3x 15 warriors was my go to but ive no idea what unit sizes are optimal now. I was toying with 21 warriors bricked up 7 wide 3 deep, how do we optimize unit sizing this edition? Also, I get that the chariot is a great endurance boost and delivery system for a sorcerer, but don't you generally still want to keep your casters away from combat? I was gonna try my BSB on a chariot. Beatstick lord on Manticore any good as a budget alternative to the dragon?
What is the unit str of the demon prince? I’m wondering if it can become a lvl 5 caster w/ tzeentch
Right, so how deos that WarpSpawned work exactly? It does not seem to stop you from regenerating wounds suffered from instability, right? Or does it?
Love hearing from both of you guys. Fun and entertaining. Keep up the good work!!
Just thought of this. Not sure its true or not but if you put the bsb with banner of -1 leadership if you can see me on a hill then even units in combat will be able to see him. Combine this with terror causing unit in the combat and youve got -2 ld and now ld 8 units are failing on average. Could be super good.
Right now I'm thinking 12 Nurgle Chosen with Great Weapons and Plate, then maybe a Doom Totem to make it more likely to break enemies outright. 4+/6++ and hard to hit, who will smash the shit out of most anything in the game with lots of strong attacks, are unlikely to break but will make the enemy easier to break.
What I really like about the special rule for Nurgle is that they are less likely to be affected by poison, which is perfectly thematic ♥️
They made Chaos Armours heavy armour with ward saves? Weird.
Chaos warriors had heavy armor in 6th with no ward as well.
Just ward saves. The sorcerers have light armor with the chaos armor ward save, for example. It's very weird.
@@omnivision616 6th edition is the odd one out, yes, they did that apparently just so Chosens were even better than normal CWs. I guess a 5+/5++, asuming TOW still uses save on top of save, is still better than a 4+ flat on all situations so that might be the reaosn for this change.
@@Kayosiv I suppose they want to make the older, pre-5E/6E Sorcerer miniatures visually viable again since may of them wore robes and at one that I've seen was bare-chested. Still, do sorcerers get option to upgrade to Chaos Armour? 6E had that I think
I’m semi excited to see the old world come back as I never stopped playing 8th
I will say these vids seem to not consider other army lists. It’s like they are reading the book for the first time.
E.g chaos warriors are well costed?
How do they compare point wise to the long beards (12pts), Hammerers (16pts), iron breakers (15pts), white lions (15pts), sword masters (14pts) or Phoenix Guard (16pts)?
I love the enthusiasm as always from the channel
Doesn’t it feel like WoC got nerfed? I mean i Bretonnian duke is as Tanky as a lord of Chaos? Also an unstable daemon prince with ws of 7? 😢 hehe
dukes WS and STR are way too much for a human 😅
Bretonnian Dukes are Grail Knights as standard.
@@iikkakangas2586Grail Knights are superhuman.
On the topic of flaming attacks, isn't there a rule that causes ,,warbeasts" to panic when they take damage from one?
It causes fear to beast type models. war dogs etc ...
Thanks for the review but this would be much easier to view with just Steve talking.
It's really annoying when other people talk over him/jump in, especially when they normally aren't as knowledgeable.
Gaze of the gods has a temp. bonus only for rolls of 2 or 3. The others are permanent and stackable I believe. Right?
afaIk, it seems however it took a little while before this dawned on Steve, I would theorize this was recorded before that..
yeah i recorded this a while ago, i believe you are exactly correct
Awesome! Just wanted to make sure I was gettin it right. Keep up the great content.@@MountainMiniatures
1 and 6 are permanent. One is negative and one is positive.
Hey there, i was wondering for a long time now, and hope with the rules you can help me, if Tamurkhan is possible to be played?
I got that miniature and hoped i could use it for the old world, but from what i heard it sounded like i cant or maybe only as a demon prince?
He so large, i dont see any way of using him as of right now.
@@MountainMiniatures Alright, thanks for responding quickly.
@@ununpentium935 i rarely do, but i try lol
You could probably use him as a chaos dragon rider, if your opponent allows the bigger base
@@jacobbjelgart1900 i will keep that in mind, thanks. Still got a lot to work on until I get to thr old world army sadly.
best skirmishes in the game, i throw the imperial pistol mountet guys in the pod
Thank you for the video! Loving this content!
Maybe you said it before but will you be making videos on legacy factions??
Would love to hear how the new rules impact the ogres.
I hope they do too. I wanna see lizardmen, vampire counts, and ogres
I was listening to the streams, they're gonna be covered as much as any of the core factions!
He already has the videos made on them, he has to wait til the embargo date to release them though.
Love MM but Ben really takes away from these reviews.
Video should be called buddy interrupts review….
This other guy is unbearable 😂
5+ for Heavy Armor? That’s seems pretty terrible.
Heavy armour has always been 5+.
Are the armies in a seperate book? How many books do you need to play?
Two. Main rulebook and the book for all the evil forces.
3 - Rule book, Forces of fantasy (good guys) Ravening Hordes (bad guys)
@@MountainMiniatures and if i foolishly did not pre order what are my chances of getting them
@@devonwong6471 my understand they are here to stay, restocks are coming.
👍👍
Your co-host is driving me crazy in these vids. Heck, he's driving -you- crazy.
Hellcannon same points cost as a treeman 😬
and its only d3 dmg, not d3+1 like other stone throwers
Did they take out the giant?
From the army builder, it seems that you can take 1 giant per 1000 pts
No, of course not
Loving the content man it's great to see old world comming back and as a long time viewer of your stuff and mini war gaming it's great to see your channel booming :) I'm currently building up a warriors of chaos army (2.5k) for the weekend and I could be wrong but I don't belive you are restricted to either chosen knights or chosen warriors, army restriction have them both listed on separate bullet points with no condition to the other written as far as I am aware so I think 1 of each points permitting is legal.
Just a mountain please
You guys put time into these videos great job 👍
Did they miss chaos Ogres or am I missing something?
Echoing alot of the other comments here, but PLEASE drop the co-host Steve. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about, but the constant interrupting is just off putting. Couldn;t finish the video.
that guy on the right is so annoying I had to close this video
Am I crazy or were marauders on 20s back when
Marauders have been on 25s since 6th I want to say. I know for a fact they were 25s during 7th.
Where ar da Orcs!??? 😊
In the orc & goblins video presumably 😅
@@jacobbjelgart1900 witch is still not released where the greatest faction shoukd go first ;P We all know there are only Orcs and gits.