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Broken Empire Review - Prince of Thorns
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- Опубликовано: 18 июл 2019
- My review of Mark Lawrence's Prince of Thorns. The first book in the Broken Empire series.
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Respect to Mark Lawrence for fully committing you writing a protagonist as such an villain. It’s bold, original, and so not my taste. 😂
Daniel Greene I’d advise you never to read The Kindly Ones by Jonathan Littell, given your reaction to this book.
@@arronjameshook See now I want to.
Could you review Demon Cycle (Book one - Warded Man) by Petter V Brett?
I saw his praise for prince of thorns in a tweet and decided to try it. I ended up agreeing with you. I finished but don’t want to continue the story. It just isn’t my style. But I love Demon Cycle
@@curtis6668 I was so disappointed by The Demon Cycle. I loved The Warded Man(really, it was incredible) and was so excited to pick up the rest of the series that I bought it all at once. Ending up getting through book 2 and mildly enjoying it still and then DNF-ing book 3, The Daylight War, about 200 pages in. The biggest thing for me was the flashback chapters really took me out of the story. That and I felt like the story got very predictable after the first book. I even read the last 50 or so pages of "The Core" to see if I had predicted the ending right and I had. So all that to say I'm glad you like it, but I'm really sad because I thought this was gonna be a new favorite series for me and it just ended up being a disappointment.
Please read the dawn of wonder by Johnathan renshaw and Leviathan Wakes. They are both goods in different ways.
He only gets more Jorg as the series goes on, and yet you can't help but root for him throughout the series. I love the Broken Empire.
...root for him? How?
@@SirArthurTheGreat Because some of the people he opposes are just as bad, if not worst. Jorg is a product of his environnent through and through.
@@SirArthurTheGreat
In King Of Thorns he's affected by the shit he's done in the past and he's a lot more sympatethic and pretty fun and there's a twist in it that makes your sympathize with him even more, I like King of Thornes Jorg a lot
@@SirArthurTheGreat as you progress in series he kind of becomes little better,not like benevolent but little better,and he is smart,again it depends on person😂😂😂
And in the last book "emperor of thorns" he does things that show a hero side to him.
You should read the sequels to see how Jorg changes.
Hint: He is less edgy.
He keeps being an asshole though
@@melleklaver8021 But not Hitler levels of assholeness.
@@melleklaver8021 its an acquired taste, I for a fact love how he is unapologetic and doesn't go through a redemption phase
You also get more background on why he is how he is. I really enjoyed it.
Aw
Jorg (pronounced as George, apparently) has an interesting character arc. He’s a narcissistic sociopath in Prince and then kinda okay in King, the sequel. It’s development I’m a fan of.
He's Joffrey but angrier in book 1, and by book 3 he is the Hound. A better character and person, but still an evil bastard
nathan struble well said.
@nathan struble
that seems like a fantastic change actually. i find the hound to be misunderstood as evil, but not actually evil.
if that's the arc of jorg, that's quite a transformation.
Its pronounced "yorg"
Jim McKenzie I thought I remembered Mark Lawrence saying it was pronounced George, but I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m wrong.
I was expecting an antihero when I picked it up... oh boy did I get a surprise
Same 0.0
The Red Queen's War, also by Mark Lawrence in the same universe, shows us another prince's view on Jorg. It is highly amusing, and I solidly recommend that series.
You had me at sadistic. Just moved up my TBR list
Bradley Roar same
Good review, but it annoys me that you have to censor a historical war criminal's name to keep monetization. RUclips sucks
@@munboy It's like a bandaid over a gunshot wound. It's doing more damage in the long run
@@lazyrmc censoring the horrors of what happened in Germany under the Nazis is what is going to cause something like it to happen again.
@@hydrastrike2699 yuup
@@lazyrmc More like rubbing salt into the wound and then putting a bandaid over it. These censorship attempts by RUclips are ridiculously clumsy and unhelpful.
I loved this book. It has so much psychology in it. How Jorg's fuel was the memory of the traumatic event, and how he went from a boy to a full blown sociopath. I understand that some might not enjoy it, but it was a true page turner for me. I was simply intrigued by the psychological aspect of the protagonist. Almost like watching him from afar as a researcher.
There sure are lot of modern fantasy books titled *blank* OF *blank*
YUP!
Like Lord ofthe Rings? Or Wheel of Time?
That's not a problem though. Like, that's such a vague formula. That's not a criticism
There are a lot of stories, period, titled that way. Is that somehow bad?
So what
Mark Lawrence’s first book is definitely where he has most of his weaknesses. In king of thorns and emperor of thorns there’s significantly more world building, and Jorg definitely has more character development. It kind of feels like your seeing Lawrence’s writing grow at the same time as Jorg himself.
Oh, see I most prefer the first book personally.
If you keep reading the series you'll probably hate it even more because you'll secretly start to like Jorg. One of the only books to make me reflect on myself and think "What is wrong with me? Why do I like this?" The ending is also just about perfect in my eyes. It magnificently encapsulates the progress Jorg makes as a person while also still highlighting how much of a monster he truly is. I still think about this series probably once a week and it's been almost a year since I have finished it.
Such a good series. And I kind of loved Jorg. How can you not admire the indomitable will
I liked him from the first chapter. Something maaaay be wrong with me.
I can only read this series once a week. I feel like I personally know Jorg…. and I don’t like him
I normally like these reviews and agree that Jorg is a terrible person. But I really would have enjoyed more review in this review. I feel like I just heard “I really didn’t like the protagonist being evil” for 11 minutes on repeat and now I’m here at the end feeling like I just wasted my time
I've read two of these books, and I kind of feel that's mostly what there is to say about these books. A bit hyperbolic, but yeah... it is definitely the most stand-out thing about these books.
@@Minjoph "end feeling like I just wasted my time" "mostly what there is to say about these books." I did not miss the undertones of that statement.
Biggest roast of...2019??
@@Minjoph I mean Greene didn't even go into the reasons why he turned out how he did. He was 9 at the start of the first book and already went through so much shit that most "evil" protag in other books didn't even get a glimpse at.
Also I'm going to object to Glokta being objectively "bad" - I think he is as good as the society he lives in lets him be. Frequently, when he has a choice, he does the right thing.
Also you should talk to Elliot Brooks about whether Glokta is bad 😄 iirc she is a Glokta admirer.
Trust me if you can get yourself to read the second book you will not regret it. I read this trilogy so fast. Jorg is such a terrible person but I was rooting for him by the third book which might be bad hahahah
Also Marks other work is great, I am a huge fan of The Red Queens War which is another trilogy in the same world!
funny, I always liked Jorg. his detaced way of looking at the world and people for the most part is what kept my interest. but then again, I am a historian, I spend a lot of time reading about terrible deeds and people that can hold a candle to Jorg when it comes to messed up deeds.
I do have to say that Lawrence has a great way with words. everything Jorg says is the sweetest poison
So, out of interest, who would you say is the worst person you’ve ever read/studied about?
@@heraldofmorning3219 one would be tempted to say something like Vlad the Impaler because of his well known sadism and extreme ways of torture, but honestly I money is on Napoleon.
Just becouse Napoleon send milions to their deaths without a second though. He did a lot for the betterment of sience, law codification and civil rights but he invaded countries that were not even at war with France and pressed the young population into military service.
It is his careless attitude towards milions that makes him the worst. at that, a guy who first comes up with a great and modern system of juctice and then places himself above it is just a jerk... just like Jorg he was briliaint and could have been so great... only he wasnt.
@@heraldofmorning3219 but worst is a relative term. there is a wide sectrum of A - Holes
Rik Remmerswaal. Ooh, yeah, Vlad was a real piece of work. I’m a Muslim, so I’m quite familiar with him. I quite agree with you actually. It’s one thing to be brutal and horrible, but another to do so while being hypocritical
Rik Remmerswaal. Very true.
Me: You'll never see a character as vile as Glokta from The First Law that you find yourself rooting for.
Mark Lawrence: Check this shit out.
Personally, I found Jorg very relatable. Basically he's like a lot of teenagers who suffered a lot of abuse as kids *but taken up to 11* . Obviously most of us who were abused as kids aren't out there raping and pillaging towns but a lot of us end up with some type of self-destructive, spiteful delinquent behavior. I remember that scene early in the book when Jorg is really looking forward to taking a bath and then the priest says he'll have to take a bath which makes Jorg decide he can't take a bath. Seriously I did that exact same thing! I picked fights, stole things, even had an entourage of older boys (granted we weren't killing and raping people). Jorg's evolution and character development really reminded me of myself and a lot of kids who suffered really traumatic abuse.
And I disagree with him having no redeeming qualities. Even during Prince of Thorns you can see his facade of not caring about anyone isn't exactly true. (Granted I'm reading him through my sympathetic lenses then you are). But consider *spoilers* his impulsive decision to defend Gog and Magog, his irrational anger over The Nubans death, his warning of the children to vacate the monastery, his refusal to rape Catherine despite the hypnotic suggestion to do so. Many of his "rational" decisions are really just excuses to console his conscience which he's trying to deny he has. Also, he's 9, 13 & 14.
Totally agree with this. I was thinking the same while watching this review. While it's true Prince of Thorns may not be for some people I think the author did a great job making his story realistic. (English it's not my first language so i'm sorry if i made any mistake xD)
Jorg is very much a product of his environment which in no way excuses him for his actions but makes them understandable. His character growth is very satisfying over the course of the trilogy.
It's so my taste. I love The Broken Thorn Trilogy and the Overlord Anime.
Thank you for sharing. I will give it a read
Ali Turk well they are, except two come from japan
Ali Turk i know the truth hurts some people :D
Have you read his Book of the Ancestor series yet? I thought it was better
The diffence is that Momonga got some redeeming qualities. He's not written like like a sociopath. I haven't read the second book in Broken Thorn, but if he gets more likeable, he's making a reverse Momonga. :)
So it took me 5 attempts to read Prince of Thorns. It disgusted me and repelled me. But by the 5th attempt it earned my respect. I still didn't like the book THAT much. I think I gave it a 3.5/5 but I was also hooked on Jorg's story. I read King of Thorns and liked that even more. I read Emperor of Thorns and LOVED it.
He mellows out quite a bit, going from Ramsy to Tywin.
That is like saying he goes from a wild, youthful, uneducated sociopath to a wise, manipulative sociopath.
@@christopherrousseau1173 That's........exactly what he does.
@@christopherrousseau1173 you described it perfectly
When it comes to how you feel about him: Jaime is a better fit imo
The trip from sadic sociopath to remorseless pragmatist was a bit hurried in my opinion.
The Prince of Fools trilogy was my favorite out of the set so far. At one point the main character meets Jorg and about pisses himself. A lot more comic relief and Identifiable characters
That's exactly what everyone feels reading the first book, but please read the other two, they are sooo much better than the first and you kinda understand Jorg a bit more (may keep not liking him, but you can see why he is like this). Also the story is, in my opinion, really good with a few clever twists. But, if you can't, there's another series of books in the same world, the first one is Prince of Fools and the character is more likeable ;)
Yeah first law left me depressed by the end and broken empire left me kinds fulfilled lol
Aaron Tucker I agree completely. I liked Broken Empire. First Law depressed me.
Leonardo Lisboa, you are wrong. Not everyone felt that way reading the first book. I liked Jorg from the very beginning and I really loved him at the end of Emperor of Thorns.
No Vari sorry, I haven’t felt that way either. I’ve just said because based on critics and people that I’ve known that read the first book, hating Jorg looked like just a generous consensus to me. But glad that there are exception :)
@@urty24 I quit The First Law Trilogy halfway through book two because I was wondering around Barnes and Noble, saw book three and decided on a whim to go through the last few chapters to see where everyone ends up. Thank God I did. Stopped me from wasting my time with the rest of that series. 🖕Fuck you Joe Abercrombie
"I was born for killing - the gods made me to ruin." - Red Sister
Jorg is a very interesting character because he is both pure evil and exactly what his world needs.
I haven't read Red Queens War (also set in broken empire) but Red Sister (first book in the Book of the Ancestor series) was very good, and the protagonist is actually likeable (its still full of despicable people though).
I keep meaning to read the rest of the series and pick up Prince of Fools but I haven't gotten around to it
I just finished reading the trilogy. I wouldn't call him evil. He's brutal, ruthless, but not evil. He doesn't enjoy hurting random people (to be fair he doesn't care about them either), others in his party might but not him. He might enjoy hurting someone he hates but if he hates you that much you would have had to try and kill him or someone he cared for. Jorg is no hero, he doesn't want to be. He does what he does because he knows their is no other way.
Not necessarily defending his actions. He is a bad person, but there is more to him, he has layers. In the second book he admits that if the Prince of Arrow had come he would have bent the knee. He recognized that that other man was truly a good man. I know what drives him and how he will act in a given situation.
This book took me a long time to actually read; I got through to the second chapter and actually had to put the book down and make a decision... I had bought the whole trilogy in a deal from B&N in hardcover, and the choice I had to make was whether to continue or not.
The first book... intrigued me... Not that I enjoyed his thoughts, but to be honest, I found his character fascinating: How he came to be the monster he is, his thought process, and the sheer... conviction he had with his goals... To that end, I was at least hooked to read the second book, which I found MUCH more palatable; he has by that point developed enough of a character that I could understand his thoughts and actions, while still retaining his sociopathic nature.
The third book, Emperor of Thorns, for me was the one that sealed my... not admiration... I guess I'll say respect for the character; he has grown even more by that point, actually forming emotional attachments to people, and making choices that benefits others to the detriment of himself at times, and I guess it just brought his character arc to a point where I was able to look back, see the growth he had made, and come to appreciate the story and character that Mark Lawrence wanted to write.
So; I'm not saying that you SHOULD/MUST read the rest of the books, they're not for everyone, but for me personally, after reading through this trilogy, I can honestly say, Jorg Ancrath is a character appreciate and remember, in a time when we see Fantasy protagonists who have an unshakable moral compass; a reminder that you can still have a protagonist who is interesting, even with a heart of obsidian.
This exactly
Love this series.
There is evil in everyone. Jorg express this visceral, unspoken truth. It gets really interesting as he grow up.
And the dynamic with Katherine....that is REAL!
There is so much ancient wisdom sprinkled here and there in these books.
first law for me! try anscestor series from mark lawrence it might be in your alley
I enthusiastically second this suggestion.
The ancestor books are awesome . Nola and her sisters are badass .
I think the red queen's war is better than book of ancestors. But broken kingdom by far the best. You have to finish the trilogy to see just how good it is
I LOVED the 1st Law series.
Please continue with the series and complete it. It's a masterpiece. The whole setting of the world and also the story is a work of genius!
Just finished the final book of the trilogy last night. Hands down one of the best series I've ever read. Jorg is truly an enigmatic fascinating character and I love how he developed by the end.
You need to read the rest of the series. His character arc is one of the best ever written in my opinion. The other books expand a little on other characters like makin who you will absolutely love. The world is very interesting too
The Scene with Jorg and the Pope made me Scream IN JOY.
YESSSSS. I cracked up when he basically slaughtered his way to emperor through the book 💀
I love this trilogy. He develops much more and you get more of why he is how he is later. I think it’s a great change up from other protagonists. He’s a man of his word which is also refreshing ha, his threats are always legit.
Joe Courtney yas! We love an honest sociopath
I know you hated this haha, but if you ever want to pick up another Mark Lawrence pick up Red Sister. Definitely an easier protagonist to root for.
I actually think Shattered Seas trilogy by Joe Abercrombie is a really good grim dark entry point. It is lighter grim dark so might not be as jarring for some people. Now I need to read First Law.
Book of the Ancestor was really good in my opinion. I love how Nona never sacrifices her faith in her friends, no matter what, and through sheer force of loyalty redeems even people who you don't want her to. Great series.
@@jbfwinning yes I agree! Nons is my favorite part of Book of the ancestor for sure
@@munboy Same
He's not a garbage person. Jorg is (secretly) actually a selfless hero who loves his brother more than the entire world, who then who manages to save the world and his dead brother through sheer will and every tooth, nail and stratagem at his disposal. Replete with brilliant aphorisms to elucidate his thinking.
"You can only win the game when you understand that it is a game. Let a man play chess and tell him every pawn is his friend. Let him think both bishops holy. Let him remember happy days in the shadows of his castles. Let him love his queen. Watch him lose them all."
It should be noted that Mark Lawrence wrote the character while sitting next to his daughter who was apparently dying from a disease while he watched other children in nearby beds die and how their families reacted. So it's kind of understandable
hey thats like tottalllyyyy spoilers :D but i already finishedd it soooo what ever
The book sounds intriguing to me! Exploration of a sociopath in a fantasy world is not your average fantasy story. I think there are plenty of fantasy stories with characters you can care about and want to succeed, and plenty that explore vast worlds. You make this book sound really unique, seems like it'd be good to pick up when I want something a little different and even darker than your usual grimdark fantasy.
It is def unsettling when you find yourself rooting for a guy who is a socipath bastard. It is really unique imo it is like reading from a villain's perspective who just doesn't have excuses nor does he give them to you for the way he is acting.
Jorg's age did not make sense to me. He acted like a 35 year old with life experience, but he was 14. I had trouble finding it believable that a 14 year old could do this.
Yes, exactly this. Couldn't get passed the age thing either. Way too young to be doing what he was doing.
In a medieval world where by fourteen it is not unusual to be married with children, I see no discrepancy with his age. The character Makin is revealed in the second installment to have been married at 13.
@@danest.george1776 - I agree, young marriages were definitely a thing back then. I just couldn't see Jorg *leading* a band of cutthroats at that age and doing wholesale slaughter with a broadsword. Suppose he was big for his age ;). Anyway, I just pretended he was a bit older and read on.
@UCEABDliwLG7lxnaP1oTJKWQ - Ah, makes sense, thanks.
have you seen child soldiers of Africa? jorg is exactly like that
1. Jorg does have redeeming qualities - his intelligence, his inventiveness, his wit, his boldness, his decisiveness, his oily charm when he decides to employ it, tons of redeeming qualities - they're just not moral qualities, which is what you seem hung up on.
2. The German Chancellor from 1933 was actually Austrian and of average height. Bit sizeist of you to throw 'short' at him like it's a diminishing quality, tbh, a bit of an insult to actually short people everywhere.
great comment btw
Prince of Thorns was my first book, because of this book now I've a bookcase full of books. I don't even know how to describe my love for this book, I've so much to thank to Mark Lawrence, by that time I was afraid of books with more than 70 pages, and after I read the triology I lost this fear and became a machine of reading books, I still looking for some book that the main character is so evil like Jorg. I truly recommend this book for everyone and some of them think that I am a psycopath.
I think you would review this quite differently today. You said "Jorg is just a bad person."
He is not JUST anything. He has more nuance and depth than many other characters in fiction. He is most definitely not just a bad person. There's a lot of subtle details throughout this book which show this (a lot more in the later parts of the trilogy). It's just more subtle than most other books. Which is why i loved it.
One thing I really appreciate about the Prince of Thorns is it lets you know exactly what kind of book it is within the first few pages.
So to summarize, excellent UUUUuughHHHH and MEEEEHHhhhh.
I looked at Jorg and the whole series from a different point of view after finishing it. Book one is like when you meet a horrible person, a criminal, an offense to society and thats all you know. what you see they have become. Book 2 and Then 3 is how you look at them after theyve been arrested and thrown into a mental facility. They still are doing terrible things but you find out why, what caused the person to go off the rails and maybe even start healing them. They may never be "fixed" but you can see the whole story. Book three showed a very appropriate and almost necessary end. I was very satisfied with the character arc. Never forgot how impressive this story, and writing was for an authors debut novel. He is a fantasy/Sci-fi author worth watching and he is crazy quick at getting materials out.
I loved this book, and I did it precisely because Jorg is such an absolutely unlikable piece of shit, and the book does such an amazing job making you like him, and in the later books even root for him despite him being irredeemable.
I love this book.
After reading the ending doesn't it make you wonder .....probably jorg was a some what ok guy...
It's a character arc that's structured into a trilogy. Welcome to Act 1.
Personally, I found the way he developed the world far more interesting than the character arc but... Act 1 needs to focus on this P.O.S character first.
The way the worldbuilding sort of... slips in and then slaps you in face... It's really fun. I suddenly found myself starting to connect with this character by the end of the second book.
He's more like a Karsa Orlong than a Glokta.
You should put a pin in this series and jump to his Book of the Ancestor instead. It invests you in the characters right at the start, pretty much excels at all the elements you found lacking/disliked in this one, even pov, but keeps up that excellent compelling writing style.
The Broken Empire is my favorite series of all time, and I understand why you were put off by the first book, but I'd still recommend that you go on with the series because Jorg's story arc does end up bearing fruits for the entirety of humanity. I tried to phrase that in the best way possible without giving off spoilers.
the one thing that I love about Lawrence is his voice. he has a very poetic way of descirbing thoughts and world fews. The that really turned me into a fan was the Prince of Fools. the main character is more or less the Anti- Jorg. he is still self serving and unpleasant but that is just because he is a coward and a hedonist.
if you compare those books to the Jorg series of the Broken Empire it really shows that Lawrence has a talent for describing distinct personalities.
Been following you for a while Daniel and this is one of the first books I read when I started engaging adult fantasy, and by far one of my favourites.
Been waiting for a while, and I knew for sure, that you would 100% detest this book lol.
I really enjoyed your review, but my only criticism would be the comparison to Joeffery.
Jorg is a horrible, messed up kid. But I'd argue that he is smart and ruthless in achieving his goals, with the "added bonus" that he is a child who throws the equivalent of a temper tantrum that results in hundreds of deaths.
The problem is he is not sadistic; Joeffery was a horrible, horrible person who revelled in the pain of others; Jorg uses/pulls other people like a rope to get himself to where he wants to be. He has no feelings whatsoever for other people like a sociopath, but doesn't enjoy hurting people unless it directly assists his aspirations.
Furthermore, I especially think he does have a redeemable feature in the fact that such an atrocious family catastrophe occurred to him when he was a kid.
Overall, I thought you were a little too critical on the character, but after watching many of your videos I completely understand exactly why your review played out the way it did.
Keep up the good work ! Cheers
I highly recommend finishing the trilogy. Jorg is actually an interesting character, the world is also very interesting, the narrative choices are also interesting with some nice payoffs. You get much more of his backstory and information about the world in the next two books, and you might then come to realise how lucky everyone is to have someone like Jorg running around. Maybe.
I don't recall if you see it much in the first book except for that rectangular castle made of the rock that the ancients were fond of using, but the world building in the series is one of my favorite stand outs, I love that general setting idea that I consider a spoiler so I'm not going to ruin it for anyone.
I started with the second series in this world, the Red Queens War series. Liked that one so went to the original trilogy.
Did not care for it as much. It's not a bad series, but I enjoyed the second series better.
A lot of people are telling you to read the next two books because they're "better," but it's not just that. Taken as a whole, it's a redemption story. Which I'm sure is much more up your alley.
@Griffith's dream Yes, he's still a bad guy, but he was also a good ruler and he suffered the consequences of making the right choices across his life at the end.
I remember being at an airport for a twelve hours layover and accidentally picking up the second book in this series due to ridiculous levels of jet lag and the after effects of being an Irishman at a 5 day Indian wedding. Started with a morbid interest in what it would be like to follow an antagonist rather than the protagonist but was genuinely surprised by how well executed the character is and he is far more mature with goals which aren't as sadistic and in a strange way kind of character redeeming as the series goes on. Went back to read book one after accidentally finishing the series and suffered from the exact same problems Daniel honestly don't think I'd have finished the series if I'd started it chronologically.
It was such an edgy book. The main character was a Marty Stu and just felt meh
I don't think Jorg would ever be classed as a ....Marty stu/Gary Stu/ Mary Sue. Lol
Zam weazle yeah because being good at killing, surviving every ordeal in the book, knowing how to persuade others would not qualify him as a Mary Sue. He may not be a good guy but he is naturally good at almost everything, has half ass plans that magically work, gets saved in ways that appear like plot armor
This book is GREAT
I get why you hate it but I kinda of disagree that Jorg has no reason to be the way he is. He, like Glokta, went through some pretty messed up things, but, unlike Glokta, he went through all that when he was a child. I'm not saying that's an excuse for all the evil things he does or how extreme he is in his "the ends justify the means" ideology but it's not really surprising that he'd want to kill his father considering what he put him through for example
I was waiting for you to review this one! Your reaction is priceless!
That pet dog scene with Jorg's father... Yeah... Jorg is hard to enjoy in the first book but I encourage you to continue the series cause he grows a lot in part 2 and part 3. I love reading villainous characters so this was really up my alley. I usually play the "EVIL" route in video games that give me a choice. I sometimes refer to myself as a "part time evildoer". What can I say, life is more fun with a little variety. Luke Skywalker is no fun without Darth Vader.
Mark Lawrence is truly an innovator in this genre and I respect the frak outta him for his willingness to "go there." And yeah you should really check out his other works.
Loving this series thanks to your review of the first. Absolutely brilliant. Book two really delved into his history and his absolute motivation for advancement is spectacular
Lawrence’s masterpiece is Red Sister. It’s grimdark too, has a really interesting magic system, MUCH better characters. Also his sequel series to the Prince of Thorns series - The Liar’s Key - is about a million times better. The protagonist is still not a super great person but he’s actually likeable after a while and not an astonishingly horrific monster like Jorg. But yeah, Mark Lawrence has just gotten so much better with each series he writes.
I vividly remember Justice and "tap, tap, tap"
I can't forget the way I felt absolute confusion and interest when I saw "No Overnight Parking"
The thing that really lures you in is the prose.
Another candidate to the wishlist of "who should finish ASoIaF" is George R.R. can't.
Noooo, I completely disagree, I found The Blade Itself to be a snooze fest compared to Price of Thorns.
I do have to be in the right mind/moon for Jorg though and sometimes I do feel like there is something wrong with me because I love the series so much.
I am most of the way through this book and simply can't believe that Jorg is 14 years old and leading a band of murderers in the books. Why couldn't he run away at 14 and be 18 in the books? Much more believable in my view.
Jorge sounds like he could be the perfect character study for a psychopath unless he shows/understand/feels emotion, then definitely sociopath. Some people get them confused with each other so that is why I added the stipulation.
Problem with Jorg is not that he was evil but that he was an unrealistic portrayal of evil who could somehow, as a 13 year old, intimidate and win fights against very battle trained grown men and he is a sociopath who just hates most people he meets for no reason which just isn't very interesting after a while. Maybe if I was a young teenager I would think he was "cool and badass" but I am not. I really hated and DNFed this book
Please finish the trilogy.
I hated reading it as well, idk why I read the whole of them anyway lol. Overall story was good. Did not like the writing style of Mark Lawrence as it was a bit confusing.
Btw jorg becomes a little less monster in the following books.
This was one of the first high fantasy books I read, consciously. I proceeded to read the rest ... While I agree that the story gets more compelling as the series goes on, don't force yourself. It takes a good bit of energy to get through the rest of the books. Good luck 😊 (you may very well need it)
Jorg harkens to my childhood. Love him. Mark Lawrence knows something about dark psychology. Incredible work and refreshing in the grimdark fantasy genre.
I love storys from the other side of what is the norm. It sound right up my aly
It gets better as it goes along especially in the second book when the literal chosen one shows up to create a peaceful world. And the main character is like fuck I want to be king tho
@@tuckeraar sounds hilarious
Thx for the effort! It was not as bad as last time😁😏😉. If you come to Iceland we can go over it if you want 😊😉
@@munboy loool
I find his story, dedication to his goals and political and military strategies addictive and found myself cheering for him even while being horrified by his thoughts and actions. I just couldn’t stop reading, I’m about to start the 3rd book soon
Glokta is probably my favourite character in The First Law, I never thought of him as a straight bad guy. His chapters are also in my opinion the best written parts of the trilogy. Still unsure about whether to pick Prince of Thorns up or not, but having read and enjoyed almost every book by Michael Houellebecq, i don't think i'd find this one particularly shocking.
I feel the same way Daniel. I actually DNFd this book because Jorg made me puke mentally lol. The whole time I read it I was reminded of Ramsay Bolton just like you were. But with both Ramsay and Joffrey, even though I was thrilled when they died, I at least understood why they were so despicable, because they were so well developed, and they did have nuance. Jorg? Nope! I agree that First Law is so much better.
There are three things in universe you wouldn't get tired of watching: Burning fire, flowing water and Daniel being utterly disgusted by a character and going off about it.
I mean, Jorg really is the villain of the trilogy...It's just a story about how the bad guy wins...
No? Not even close. If anything it's a story about how *spoilers*
when the world is full of villains, sometimes you need to be a villain as well to make things better. It's also about how you can be a villain and still find redemption if you truly seek it.
There's no way that Jorg by the end of the story is "the bad guy".
Wow I wasn't expecting this rant when I clicked XD loving it... And I'm sure the comments will be full of people recommending Red Sister and they are absolutely right
Heartily agreed on Red Sister
Got halfway through the second book and I just couldn't. There's far too many side tangents when there's something about to happen. Endless description of almost everything that isn't important to what's about to happen, then it finally comes back and you almost don't care about it at that point. The first book had this, the second one I felt you could take out 75% of what he wrote and really not have missed much. It didn't even come off that much as development.
I love Jorg, and I love how he starts so horrible but through all 3 books he becomes more and more understandable, and objectively less bad after a particular person is killed. He never becomes, you know, not a bad person, but definitely the person that this world needed. All would be doomed without him, literally everyone lol
Also, “Glokta went through a lot” as a way to explain his behavior shows that you maybe did not pick up a lot of details about the story and Jorg himself. Glokta has almost no excuse for his terrible behavior imo, while Jorg actually *does* but it’s perhaps not as obvious. I will admit that most of that information for Jorg comes in the next two books though.
I don’t want to spoil things, but Jorg’s decisions were very much more complicated than you seem to believe, I find him more redeemable than Glokta by far (though I love Glokta! lol) and I strongly disagree that Jorg has “literally no redeemable qualities.” You aren’t giving him and the author enough credit, Jorg is far more nuanced of a character than you presented in this review.
The tough part is that most dark-protagonists start out presenting the likable/understandable aspects and THEN show the ruthless and/or evil aspects. Jorg is more the other way around. You start out thinking maybe he’s just a psychopath, and then come to realize what’s really going on with him and his decisions.
But he saved gog’s life.... or agog can’t remember which
i got 30 pages into this book and i couldn't. Nope...
I read about 20 pages Wednesday when I saw Daniel was reviewing it and I haven't gone back. I am thinking I will dnf it right now. I coundn't get past book 2 of Asoiaf because of Joffery and this feels like 300 pages from that point of view.
You find out how and why he is what he is. And of course he ages, learns, heals throughout the story. But he is still always going to beat you with ruthlessness, edge, and wit.
My only recommendation for reading book 2 & 3 is that you understand Jorg much better. I loved the Trilogy.
Your Jorg hate is understandable, but he did have his mother and brother killed and was thrown out a window into a briar patch and left to die. Also if you read the sequals and meet Jorges dad you completely understand why he is the way he is . Idk how you read ASOIAF but were turned off by this lol. This is mild compared to ASOIAF . Good review, though. i enjoyed it.
Am I the only one who preferred Logan over Glokta? I am afraid to ask this but then again, it's better to do it then live with the fear of it.
Read the rest, please.
Hi @Daniel Just as an aside, Gordan Ramsey is actually really nice in person. One of my best friends's wife is related to him and told me that whenever he's in the country he comes to their little house to visit. He's incredibly polite, raves about the cooking that the mother does for him / the family and is all around a cool dude.
With this, plus Daniel's review of Shadow of The Conqueror, has brought me to a conclusion. Daniel doesn't have the same sense of morbid curiosity most people do. The sense of "Holy fuck, dude! That was messed up!... What fucked up thing do you do next?"
Spoilers ...
I feel like he missed the part where Jorg was bing mind controlled. Shrug
The next two books are more about Jorg becoming a better person.
Also Red Kent is fucking awesome.
Also best line in a book series.
“You’d think there’d never be a good time to get kicked by a horse”.
Yeah theres no way he finished this book based on this shallow review
Keep reading Daniel. In the first book, Jorg is a young teen whose own father tried to murder him multiple times and had his mother and brother killed. Jorg lives in an HRE type empire of princes who are being manipulated by wizards. Like the child soldiers across the globe in our own history, Jorg is inundated with evil on all sides being raised by a band of brigands in a world where backstabbing is common. Because of this, Jorg doesn't develop relationships normally. He can't. He has no examples to follow or understanding of a way to be a "good" man.
Jorg is broken. Without spoiling the series, Jorg was intentionally targeted for a reason. He senses this and lashes out at everything in his path. There is a world, a huge world, out there. What would a 13 year old know of the world? What would the reader know when the whole book is written from Jorg's first person narrative? It is not until the 2d book that Jorg finally begins to pull his head from his tiny world to view what is going on around him. In a amazing fashion, Lawrence even wrote the book in a manner that fits the story. The first person view is actually explained at the end of the series. Jorg is a dark person in a dark world. He never becomes Kaladin or some shining knight. He is, however, exactly what his surroundings have molded him to be from childhood. And despite all this or even because of this, Jorg is able to do what needs to be done.
Read the rest of the story before you judge the character. First book he just wants vengeance on his uncle and is willing to do whatever it takes to get there. That is not his final goal in the series nor is it the end of his development. It is a truly great series with a relatable, albeit "evil" protagonist.
Saw this coming I knew the protagonist would just turn your stomach. I can’t say he improves much as a person in the next ones but he definitely grows. And the second book has a stomach wrenching twist that just made it look like Jorg is a tiny monster compared the big ones behind the curtains ( those of you that know the story of Katherine the dreamwitch and the baby know what I’m talking about). I haven’t gotten around to the third gotta take some time to emotionally recover.
Daniel mostly focused of jorg and that’s fair since the first book is entirely his character study and origin, but the entire world of the broken empire is dark, this series comes with some serious trigger warnings and just plain atrocities, but I recommend it if you’re interested in diving into some of the darker pools of human psyche.
I would love to see Daniels take on the sequel but I would completely understand if he chose not to, it just isn’t his taste. But the character writing as he stated is stellar and I felt like he stepped up in the sequel, in the first we see a monster, in the second one we see a monster dealing with his monstrosities and their consequences while balancing that with his pride and ambition. Just a little encouragement for you Daniel but i would say that this is one that you shouldn’t force yourself
"Water! Water!" It's always water with the dying. Strange, it's killing that gives me the thirst.
Jorg didn't make me want to shower, he made me cringe,
because this is the edgiest book I ever read.
it made me want to buy a trenchcoat and listen to nine inch nails.
but to be serious the book gets good if you can get over the initial cheese
I don't believe in the concept of "evil", since nobody thinks of themselves as such. So I'm actually very curious as to what his motivations are. If a character is written well I should be able to understand them without having to agree.
I haven’t read this but now I’m interested. But not because I like following evil characters, but because I like experiencing an author trying to do something out of the box. Anything different is most appreciated. I don’t need to revisit the same story in new clothes into perpetuity. I don’t see the point. Give me something trying to be different or give me something that has done the status quo better than ever before. Otherwise it’s not worth my time.
*******(FIRST LAW SPOILERS!!!!)*******
Ps: I don’t even think Glokta is evil. I think he proves this with what he does with Ardee. Abercrombie pulls back juuuuuust shy of going full scumbag with all of his protagonists.
The beauty of this trilogy is that Jorg seems to be frickin physco evil protagonist, however, as you keep on through King of Thorns & Emperor of Thorns you realise that he's just a broken person, & he really wants to do the right thing but knows there is no turning back from the evil things he's done & thats why I love this trilogy. Because he's a broken person who did some horrible things in the past & knows there's no redemption for him, so all he can do is burn & thats what the story demands of him, to burn.
I liked it enough but I think his Book of the Ancestor series was better, it is still grim and dark but the main protagonist, Nona, is much easier to route for, I really liked the series
Jorg made me straight up judge Mark Lawrence as a person. Like why did he dedicate Prince of Thorns to his daughter??? 😭✋🏾 foul
If you read the other two in the trilogy his character evolves a bit & you understand him much more.
I get why people don't like it, but I empathized with him given the life he's had. I personally found it refreshing from your typical "relatable" protagonist.
I'm only 52% through it so far (enjoying it) I see jorg as a serial killer
I read an eastern book called reverend insanity. The character was disgusting and cruel and left me scarred and literally changed my behaviors. I read 600 chapters due to hope of redemption… Never happened