How many boilers does this house really need?
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2022
- #intergas #boiler #efficiency
In this video I am installing a heating system at a large 300m2 house in Esher, KT10.
We are removing 3 x 20kW boilers and 375L unvented cylinders and replacig them with...well, have a guess yourself.
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I've been doing service and repair for 14 years, but you make me feel like an apprentice. I'm so impressed by this. What a great solution and so much simpler.
I only show the bits that work out mate :) - but thank you for nice words.
An absolute expert in your field and an artist.
If ever I am in a position to redo mine, I know who I'm gonna call.
Your a bloody good plumber they are so hard to find. I wish everyone had this pride and skill set.
Not only are your installation skills epic! 👌 but you explain your theory exceptionally! You put training centre tutors to shame, some who even have 40 years experience cant explain as thoroughly as you. Very well done! 👍👍
Sublime! Love watching you work. Nice job Szymon.
Don't forget we're on that course on Monday, see you there...
Great video, it all looks so neat now,bet you had a happy customer
Beautiful craftsmanship.
Very clever indeed . Great job .
You do amazing work, your boiler piping deserves to be in an art gallery
Wow. All i can say is awesome, we don't have architecture like this where I live, It would be exciting to have a project like this.
great video!
The aesthetic of the pipework is so good. Seeing these videos is actually making me a pain in the neck on a renovation. I want to know they can it this neatly!
A true artisan at work! A joy to watch someone who takes pride in their work and has the knowledge to back it all up. Your videos are superb and very informative and easy to follow for the lay person. Keep it up!
This is a great find with upcoming renovations. Thank you for sharing and hats off to great craftsmanship in your work.
Another quality job with an in-depth explanation 👏
Glad you liked it
Brilliant video, very impressed, I love to learn from others and need to maybe think about my future set ups. 👍🙏🏼 keep the videos coming. Thanks
Your knowledge is great and your pipe work is awesome!! Thank you for doing the video!
My pleasure!
love your program, have been retired for some time but spent many years working for Honeywell and with the proper controls there is more than one way to get the job done it only takes money. I like your thought process.
By far the best I have seen on these channels. wish I had the knowledge you do!
thanks !
I love xclusive boilers. One of my favourite boilers to fit. I fit intergas all the time and I don't think anything comes close to them. Definitely going to do this type of install on my next unvented cylinder system.
It's brilliant how you set up the heating and water systems. It definitely saves on gas and makes a really efficient system.
Great job
Thank you!
Great work, always watching out for your videos, pipeworj is amazing mate
Thanks !
Constantly bringing the big content SC 👍🏽
Thanks Patrick!
I guessed 29kw. So close. I install ATAG boilers with their own DHWP valves. Thinking of giving intergas a go. Great job on the install
This guy is a wizard!
Excellent..Your professional knowledge of ur craft is akin to a rocket scientist knowing his. Thank u for ur expert knowledge..
Admire the pipe work and how cleanly everything is laid out.
You should do a video on how to determine if the plumbing/heating professional you need to hire actually knows what they are doing... What questions can be asked of them, and what answers are to be expected, sort of.. Any potential red flags, etc...
that is a good idea
Totally agree with this, really struggling to find honest and competent tradesman ..
Check out Heat Geek's channel, loads of great advice for consumers.
Also verify that the tradesman is Gas Safe too!
'' WOW '' your knowledge and expertise ,skill and finished work is second to none . a pleasure to watch .⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
thank you!
Excellent video top quality installation well done 👍
thank you!
Another great vid thanks very much for sharing!!
I love this guy, even were he to be wrong, he would make it right. I put your video's on LinkedIn where I live and work
Close miss, i had it at 30 kw, hats off always a pleasure to watch your videos. many thanks.
🤔don't understand anything technical...but I just subscribed😁 Because you seem to know your stuff extremely well. I need people like you in my life!
This channel keeps getting better and better, good on you man! What was the coil rating on the cylinder?
90kW. Thanks for kind words.
That’s a brilliant video, I’m buying an large old Georgian house that needs some work and CH costs have been a huge concern. But this is very useful.
At that age ch bills are the least of your problems place will be rotten top to bottom
You have got rid of so much crap out of that job well done 👍👍
yep. the rubbish removal guy seemed happy to take it all away too
Fair play another cracking video! Not duprised by boiler size or cylinder size only because I've recently done the Kimbo hydronics course and he was singing the praises of HWPR... I'm looking forward to installing one!
Kimbo's course is soo entertaining I want to do it again just for the laughs!
Just another piece of art work. The pipework the simplicity, the knowledge is just picasso. Any chance for a drawing of the old system and how u managed to alter all that pipework at different locations. Much appreciated
I will probably not draw it - too much work. I just mark pipes with a marker before I start and then skecth a quick layout on paper so that I know I do dot miss anything
What a good surprise to see a house I saw before :) another masterpiece installation.
When and why did you see that house Mikael?
@@UrbanPlumbers Emeline worked in Esther for years.
Fantastic workmanship .you don’t see a lot of people these days take pride in there work .when I win the lottery I will give you a call to replace my heating system .keep the good work up .great videos only found you yesterday.
Welcome and thank you for your comment!
great job looks very well 👍
thanks!
Great vid and information on thought process/know-how. Pipe work serblime!
thanks!
Two words.... Absolute Genius!!!! A little part of me was thinking high temp heat pump.
It would be safe to say that you will never see me fit a high temp heat pump!
Great video, your right traditional Y and S plan systems are out the window..... Will be interesting to see how the industry as a whole adjusts to the new regulations!?
exactly, a lot of people will struggle initally I guess. Finally people will have to install Vaillant with Vaillant VR centers. I could ever understand why people would stick Vaillant boilers on S plans, when thye have a great thought out PDHW system in place already. Ideal can do it the same way as I did in this video. Baxi ad few others will have to wake up and update the boilers too.
Would like to be your apprentice! Great work and thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Beautiful pipe work mate
Thank you !
The owners must be pleased with your conversion. I bet their gas bill is cut in half now!
maybe not half, but should be at least 20% less
Bet it’s not as cheap as my Biomass. How much at present prices to run annually?
I didn't see any low loss headers
@@lesterjohnston8888 No need for any
Good work.
Complete supporter of PDHW Systems 🙂
Don't understand why additional 2 Port Valves are required, other than crazy U.K Regs ! To my knowledge, it's only the UK that request them. I'm stopping to fit them on my PDHW jobs. Like your job, the Sensor and boiler etc will prevent overheating. Not to mention that permanently open motorised valves can fail due to mechanical faults
Great video mate. You answered a question I've been meaning to look up with regard to a 3 port priority valve on unvented. Recently installed an Atag on PDHW and their instructions say to add a two port as well as the 3 port diverter valve they supplied. It didn't make sense to me so I used a NO 2 port instead on the heating side. To my mind a 3 port diverter should satisfy the regulations. Nice to see it done in the real world.
They are just covering themselves with that 2 port. I do not see a need for it.
It's a thing of effiency and beauty.
I thought exactly that but 30kw boiler and 300 litre cylinder. It’s amazing how many properties have oversized boilers and undersized rads & pipework
great video!
Man your knowledge makes me feel like an apprentice again lol, I love your videos and your installs. I thought you would of at least fitted two boilers. Great video thanks.
Thanks! 2 x 18kW was also an option but the client went for simplicity instead. Fewer pumps, no header needed and higher efficiency
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks again for the great video, did you study building services engineering???
You know so much lol
@@al-azimahmed1188 no, I have no formal education mate. At least not in engineering.
@@UrbanPlumbers well sir my hat goes off to you and you are an inspiration to become as knowledgeable as you you have become. Waiting for your next video, keep it up man 100%
Absolutely amazing to see and watch the end result.
You are an expert at this. Please move to North Devon, the local plumbers have just discovered indoor heating that doesn’t involve cow manure. We need you and the likes here desperately.
Keep up the great work!
Would love to see anything you do with renewables, such as SunAmp etc.
More renewables coming soon! I would love to move out of London, just don’t know where yet :). Heating with cow manure must be zero carbon right?
Joking aside, take a trip to Devon? I used to live and work in London and know exactly how you feel.
You wouldn’t regret moving out of London I feel.
Here in Devon the demand for people like you is so high I cant get anyone to even turn up to quote. There really is very little knowledge amongst the plumbers locally re new technology, let alone someone who can actually do an installation like you can.
Take a weekend off? I have a holiday let, anytime you want to stay and survey the area let me know.
Great video. It’s surprising how many boilers are oversized. I’m often surprised how small boilers actually need to be when sized properly. You are a credit to the trade 👍🏻
it is a constant battle to explain to clients that they onlt need 12kW or 18kW boilers.
@@UrbanPlumbers our old single glazed end of terrace still has an 11kW baxi back boiler. Heat loss calcs I’ve done for an ashp install says I need 6.8 when it’s -3 outside. Amazing how little you need.
I lived in Esher for 10 years, lovely place. We had 1 boiler for 1500 Sq meters + 2 Swimming pools. It was a 250,000 BTU Oil boiler. Your pipework by the way is pure artistry.
thank you! Yes Esher is a great place.
Can I come and live with you? I doubt you'd even notice me...
Thats superb
Have you ever considered designing plans with a layer accumulating cylinder that does instant hot water through a plate heat exchanger that uses the heating hot water in the cylinder?
One of these layered heating water cylinders is the Vaillant allSTOR and the instant hot water module is sold separately.
P.S. Love the way you work and describe functionality.
The boiler in our cabin at Center Parcs was a combi but wired up like a conventional boiler, found that out when I turned off the central heating (as we did not need it) and no hot water! Was a Worcester of some description I believe.
Another factor that occurs to me is that it is vital that instructions are left as to how the system works, and how it should be maintained. Many service engineers do not come across these systems and will not know where to start. It's not " yer average" install. It's far better than that and it needs protecting and maintaining properly for all the right reasons.
Yes, I leave wiring schematics with the boiler manual.
Congratulations, a real pleasure to watch a competent professional at work. There are not many about. That original install was a real lash up.
My guesses were 32KW boiler and 250 Litre unvented cylinder (but did not know how many occupants).😉
It would be good if Intergas offered a PHW diverter option in the boiler (like Viessmann) keep the wiring and plumbing simpler.
Nice house too - are the owners inclined to ‘up radiator’?
You have not only reduced their gas/electric consumption but also their annual servicing costs as well as dramatically reducing points or ‘nodes of failure’.
Excellent - a bit of heating design porn.😉
only 2 rads will be upgraded for now. The cost of those cast irons is crazy. Also is the wieght. The one we will upgrade is around 300kg and costs £1,600 to supply only.
Really enjoy the videos.
I’m wondering what the advantages of hot water storage vs. a tankless hot water system are? (In general)
My first thought would be (2) boilers 1 for perimeter heating 1 for interior zones. that said the zones can be oriented north and south. my thinking on perimeter heating is here in the north east US you can have a buffer for the low Temps and that boiler can have controls for out door temperature reset 1 to 1:5 loop temp. based on out door temp and wind chill. Our weather in the NE can be extremely cold and windy. the interior boiler can handle the domestic hot water and lower interior loads.
If you could only (as a side business) set up a training school the whole country would be better off. Our 2020 London plumbers thought they could get away without lagging the pipes, they also didn't use the right clips to support the pipes (several were folded sandpaper screwed around the pipe!!). Post lockdown I had to remove all the oversize skirting boards, remake them as they started to fail after 6 months, then lag all the pipes & instal supports every 1.5m. Your channel is a great showcase of thoughtful professionalism, something that seems very rare today.
there is a training school already - check Heat Geek
Good job.thanks for your efforts and sharing your experience ..I guessed that you'd fit a combination boiler.. around 35 kw I thought ..
combi for a 3 bathroom house is a really really bad idea ;)
@@UrbanPlumbers absolutely . I would of fitted a new mains pressure cylinder too obviously . Secondary circuit etc .
@@UrbanPlumbers why?
Just had a system installed with weather compensation. No unit required outside. Thermostat looks up the weather on the internet. Vaillant boiler.
I have had this type of hot water system for 20 years. First one was Viessman. Now Vaillant.
Thanks!
Fantastic neat pipework!! Shame it has to be hidden with lagging. Great job again. Interested to know how there comfort levels are and energy consumption compares.
Could we have pipe bending tutorials please. Offsets, Pass overs and semi passover. Your pipe work looks amazing and your system installs seem to be designed for maximum efficiency 👍 Would you go through how you go about laying out your pipe work please.
OK, I may do video about it. I actually do a quick sketch of the layout before starting the work
I spoke to a g3 assessor that said wiring the power to the boiler through the cylinder high limit is the 'preffered' method as there is a small but still possible chance that in time, a fault with the valve body or synchron motor can prevent the valve from fully closing, so an overheat fault will cut the source. Great video and install as usual!
this is the case here - high limit will turn the boiler off when activated.
That was what I was thinking, our engineers were putting a 2 port on the cylinder aswell as a worcester internal Diverter with cylinder stat and limit controlling the 2 port and the NTC controlling the Boiler on Hot Water Priority, apart from being over the top it also caused an issue that if the cylinder stat was turned down lower than the HW setting on the Boiler then the Boiler would try to run against a closed circuit and eventually over heat, plus no CH. I have since removed the 2 port, disregarded the cylinder stat and wired the limit stat to cut the power to the Boiler. I like your install, a lot of guys would have fitted 2 boilers on a low loss header without realising that it would reduce efficiency. Great Channel, keep up the good work. The standard in our industry needs to improve.
Magnificent house. Great work as always
Thank you very much!
Nice job repairing the roof. Most folk would have to get the roofers in.
yes, I do get roofers in as well. This one was just a simple one.
my guess was one 30kw boiler.
a lot of the installs i do now are sized for the hot water tank and not the house. 115 000 btu is the smallest we install for recovery on the domestic hot water.
beautiful install! i should try bending on one of my next jobs.
Yeah, same is true here in Netherlands. If you have a bathtub you want CW3 or better and you rarely need any more for the heating.
Great video and nice thorough work.
In regards to running the heating system at 55deg could this still be controlled by S plan providing that both valves are not allowed to open at the same time? The joule Samsung heat pump uses 2 port valves to control the system. I agree with you though that the 3 port diverted valve is the neatest option.
Are there any air source heat pumps which you like?
Fantastic install.
Could you make use of the flue recovery system on the boiler by passing the cold mains through it into the cylinder
Yes, there is another Intgeras that has that build in. You have to use it as a combi though
Your skill and knowledge is next level 👏👏👏
thank you!
Top video 👊🔥
thank you ;)
Superb pipework , 12mm plywood backboard? , you are credit to the industry , did you agree a price with the customer first? , I learned the hard way never start a job before contract signed , cheers Steve
18mm ply. Yes price work.
Excellent work again. I guessed it would be an Intergas boiler but thought a bigger output than 27kW to be honest. I really like using press fit but find it difficult getting the lagging to look neat on the elbows. Do you have any tips?
No tips there. I am really no expert in lagging :)
It's like going back 25 plus years ago when we use to wire up pdhw , who would of thought it would make a comeback
Great job wow 🥃☘️💚👍
Love your videos! How many radiators on that system? I have a customer that has been quoted for a 50kw system boiler to supply 30 radiators and a 200ltr unvented cylinder. 50kw seems insanely high to me! Not been to the job yet
I wasn’t that far out on the kw. I guessed about 24. But I didn’t guess that you would do the hot water like that.
Another quality install. Really lovely work. Not just in terms of the actual install, but the thought process behind it and the attention to detail of the system design. 👍🏻👍🏻
Great point at the end about 55c flow going forward and how it’s gonna effect dhw. I bet a lot of manufacturers are scrambling right now to bring out boilers that can accept separated ch/dhw switched lives with different flow temps for both. Hard to see how we are going to achieve that in the short term using a lot of the current heat only boilers.
24kW would be a little too small due to undersized rads, so at -3 the boiler will run at lower efficiency due to high flow temp. 27kW was about the smallest I could get away with here.
Well thought out and a very neat job.Shame more people don't have the expertise to truly consider the u values of the properties they install into.Going big is not always best. The lazy man's option.
I wish someone had told my boiler fitter that... although interestingly his advice came from the Vaillant rep, so maybe the whole industry needs a few lessons!
@@pumpkinhead456 I’m still trying to educate people about weather compensation. I remember ripping out old compensator controls 30 years ago that were probably 30 years old at the time.
But I’m still asked “ is there a time switch or a thermostat?”
It’s a hard shift.
Yes, sadly big part of manufacturers do not understand their own products or even worse they sell products not fit for current market and regulations
Must be great having all that space to work in, for a change.
Yes, wish all jobs had that much space
The only reason I can think of to have the separate system would have been if at some point the towel rails were off the hot water and not the primaries back in the day and they didn't want to risk galvanic corrosion.
8 mins in I think I'd be on two 35kw or one 70kw. At that size it would be over the limit and need automatic fill and be classed as a commercial installation though.
Edit: So it would seem the towel rails were configured like that at some point, it's a shame to see an old set up like that though well thought out at the time massively over sized for today's standards, though modulation wasn't common place in domestic until Combi's post Y2K. This is why heat loss calcs are so important, or if you over size a system that it has the ability to modulate right the way down.
Gorgeous pipework, and your control setups are the same as what we used to do for Viessmann and now Vaillant system boilers. It's just more cost efficient.
thank you. I do not like to oversize boilers for no resons, as in this case it would mean 2 boilers instead of 1.
Other companies quoted for 40 and 50kW - that is why I think they did not get the job, as I was the only one to actaully calcuate the heat loss.
@@UrbanPlumbers I could understand over sizing if there are plans in the near future to extend but we all should be doing heat loss calcs before submitting prices anyway. Especially with the new Part L coming into play and the subsequent fines related to poor design and controls.
That said if that installation was in a more remote area and slightly larger, our customers would generally prefer 2 smaller boilers so the system has redundancy to a certain degree. All things that should be taken into account anyway and discussed with a customer to meet their needs and expectations.
I actually saw you at Screwfix in Hersham last week, I was going to say hi but you looked busy 😂
ohhh man, always come and say hi ! :)
@@UrbanPlumbers Will do next time,very informative video, you re a genius.
As my 2 bed surrey bungalow with reasonable insulation has an 18 kW boiler amazed this massive poorly insulated surrey pile manages with 24 even more so with the poor radiators and what must be a massive heat loss though that huge hall skylightand what appears to be an uninsulated loft. Great to see those joints, all should use them, they may be pricier but our roof was set on fire by our engineer using end feed (Surrey Fire Brigade were great, put it out and stackedall the tiles so minimal damage) and a few National Trust properties have been destroyed.
Your 2 bed bungalow could probably be enough with 5kw though
Great work as usual, I'd have thought given the size, age and cleanliness of CH system it might've been a candidate for plate separation?
yes, I would separate If I was installing Viessmann. One of the resons Intgeras was chosen, as it can run on mud.
@@UrbanPlumbers 🤣👍
Cracking vid. 👍👍
Thanks 👍
Great job and very interesting watch 👍
Did you have any balancing issues working with the boiler pump only?
Balancing makes no difference with boiler or external pump though. As long as the pump can pump enough water at a given head you are fine.
Lovely install. Far to neat to be hidden away 😂
ahhh, what can you do, at least it now lives on youtube
@@UrbanPlumbers yes very true 👍🏻
I take my hat off to you , I wouldn't know where to start !
I also get overwhlemed at some jobs. Just take it one item at the time and all will fall into place.
Another great video!! What size pump and expansion vessels are in these Intergas system boilers? And what size additional expansion did you have to fit? I really wish all boiler manufacturers would make their Heat Only Boilers compatible with hot water priority as expansion and pump in System Boilers are usually undersized for larger systems. I think it is only Intergas & Ideal that have this function.
boilers that I am aware of that can do hot water priority (not all of them very well) are:
- ideal - but gives absolutely zero contorl on kw output, pump speed or flow temps - very basic and far behind Intergas, Viessmann and Vaillant
- Intergas - full control of flow and kw for dhw and ch, however only offers basic weather comp, which is a bit of a let down these days
- Vaillant - full control and good weather compensation, no contorl over pump speed with modulation, which is a let down
- Viessman - full contorl and advanced weather comp - best in business. No contorl on flow temp for hot water, which is a let down, but the boiler uses NTC to make those decisions for you
Your a genius in the plumbing industry ...you really need to get yourself an apprentice and past your knowledge on ! Don't let it go to waste ...👍
Great videos and knowledge. Where did you learn your trade and your vack ground into plumbing. Cheers
I will make a vid about it soon
Amazing
I have a similarity large property to upgrade so this video was very relevant. In my case the plumbing needs renewal throughout, plus new underfloor heating on the ground floor. However I do have a 24.85kWp ground solar + 2xPowerwalls so energy is cheap and abundant. In such a case would you go for central system or just feed a cold water line to each of the four bathrooms and use Heat batteries at each local. Increase in equipment costs but saving in pipework and complexity? Heating to radiators is from a biomass that could be retained or removed. Grateful for your thoughts.
Do like your crusade for weather compensation, frustrates me that so few plumbers seem to get why it matters when gas is 9p a unit plus now.
Is it 9p already? Jesus that is expensive
Sensational install once again. I finished my first hotwater priority this week on an ideal vogue s26 with weather comp and I will be doing this install all the time from now on.
How was the water pressure on this dwelling. Was their an accumulator to help with demand .
Also very surprised by only installing 200 litre cylinder. Again you have taught me something 👍🏻
that cylinder is pre set to 4 bar not 3. You can actually run it at 5 bar. No accumulator needed - mains in 28mm all the way through with excellent flow rates.
@@UrbanPlumbers great stuff mate. Where are you onto next ?
@@ashplumb1 I already got 2 more videos from other jobs almost finished - w200 Viessmann install and another PDHW with identical set up to this one.
A lot of air source installs coming up as well.