This vid got some real damn interesting feedback from the power scalers so I’ll respond to my favourite sentiments here (I’m on mobile plz excuse my grammar my oomfie lil kittens :3): “It’s just a hobby bro it’s not that deep” - I’m making fun of your hobby and there’s nothing you can do to stop me nuh nicky nuh nuh hehehe 😝 “Ki control is canon to dragon ball actually!!” - This is really interesting to me so I’m going to make a video analysing every instance in dragon ball where fans say “Ki control” is proven to exist, all of the examples I got in the comments were straight up lies or accidental misrememberings; taking similar ideas out of context like the Goku vs Beerus clash, but hey who knows ya’ll might be right, I’ll do a lot of research and make a full video dissecting the concept. “Doom Slayer and Dante’s guns aren’t regular guns!” - I think some of em are tho? You can unlock better shteez as you progress and there’s some lore about demon energy being infused with bullets but overall this really doesn’t affect the point; the idea of bullets hurting demons so therefore every single one of Doom Slayer’s punches is canonically power equivalent to the energy needed to blow up every Doom map infinity times over is absolutely bat shit insane lol. It’s just really funny brain rot, I luv you guys. “Attack potency is real actually!” - …yes, that’s- that’s the point. A lot of these arguments really highlight some of ya’ll didn’t watch the vid and got mad anyway. This video is about (among some other things) why attack potency happens, and why I don’t like it. “Inconsistent power scaling is entirely the author’s fault.” - Power scaling is an inconsistent practice in its own right, plus there’s a couple kinds of power scaling (author scaling and fan scaling) and both have their intricacies, flaws and problems. But even taking these comments at face value I actually mention in the video the fact that authors don’t care about mathematics, I agree with you on the fact that authors mess this shit up, why ya’ll going for my throat 😅 My argument wasn’t that authors should be scientifically accurate 100% of the time and should employ hardcore fan approved power scaling in all their works, it was that fans shouldn’t expect authors to hardcore power scale in the first place! People malding over the Mach 3 thing saying “the author admitted he was wrong actually” YEESSSSSS! That’s what I’m saying! You’re understanding!!!! Some of the detractors for this vid have brought up some really interesting and well thought out points (don't you ever think I'm saying I don't want critiques at all, I'm a new creator, I CRAVE critique), but a vast portion of this comment section is 30% people calling me a dumb bitch, 30% “it’s just a lil hobby we’re all nice really ❤” and 40% accidentally or purposefully misinterpreting all of the things I say and comparmentalising this into a little "gotcha!" I’m still early in my RUclips career so I’m learning a lot; no matter how well I research my shteez a good portion of the communities I dissect will hate my guts, but I’m going to get better and better (I SHALL BECOME MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE MUHAHAHA) at this so I hope I’ll be able to produce something each and every one of you can enjoy eventually.
Don't know about DMC but yeah doomguy guns are conventional guns with the occasional futuristic or esoteric one like the ballista or BFG but most of them are stuff that we have IRL like the shotguns, heavy machineguns and chainsaws the argument that they're not normal guns is based on a statement from the devs taken out of context where they say that he confirms doom guns are magically enhanced when all he actually says is that the quad damage power-up is Canon and not a game mechanic
This video isn't a dissection of the community, it's just you hating on it for no reason than you being bitter. Of course the community will not like you.
@@MidnightRants I do you can make a badass overpowered planet buster who never shows it. Like have a pacifist monk for the first half never throw a punch then when he does it makes massive shock waves and he says sorry and never does it again. Also I hate the reverse power scalers saying thats a no limits fallacy for Gods in fiction, We don't have to show omnipotence if the story implys it they might be till proven otherwise, can two difference characters be omnipotence yes if they exist in separate stories.
Here is the narrative point of giving him that infinite power so when he encounter kryptonite or magic and loses the power there are stakes. As know he has to fight the guy he beat easy without his powers and the roles are flipped
Yes, but problem is the inconveniences in powerscaling is what makes lazy writing, they can show thanos come down and fight wolerine and I'll already know wolverine wins by some bs writing
@ It wouldn’t be power scaling it would be power creep in how the characters are written for example hulk vs Thanos, Hulk always loses to Thanos. Despite the Hulk in the comics being stated by multiple heroes and villains that he can delete the MU (Marvel Universe) when mad. Without fail Thanos throws a punch and the Hulk is TKO instantly. In general point, I want to say it all depends on the writer's perspective and whoever writing the character at the time would win.
Fandom shippers trying hard not reveal their own fantasies... No, but seriously, this makes no sense. You're just saying you see a weird sexual dynamic in this. Way to tell on yourself, bro.
I like to call this the Chuunibyou problem, where characters in fiction are described to be incredibly powerful, because it sounds cool, but little thought is given to the practical implications, so they don't look as powerful as they should.
The only thing i like is when it causes "he can move faster than teleporting and 1 second is always like 3 days for him, he looses to baby with regular gun" moments @@Blackvoidwithwhiteside7193
I mean that’s because the flash is infuriatingly inconsistent there’s no powerscaling there just annoyance at how the fastest man alive got tagged by a dude with a gun. Literally how?!?!?
Power scalers: Sonic The Hedgehog can run at 18 times the speed of light Sonic Gameplay: I wonder if I can shave 7 seconds off of this 500 meter corridor.
@@TwistedLullabies Don't forget that Eggman can also keep up with sonic as well, because he can perceive and react to FTL movements. Which makes Eggman a galaxy level character, at the very least
"If you have ever known the pleasures of a woman's touch or the joys of touching grass, it's probably your first time hearing it......" 😭😭😭bro why are you attacking your target audience???
Something I love about jjk is that it’s pretty much the antithesis to this problem. Power scaling wise, outside of some absolute bullshit, the strongest characters can’t even wipe out a city. Yet when a character like Toji or Sukuna comes around you FEEL how strong they are and they’re terrifying because the story generally does a great job at showcasing their power when realistically as far as anime go, they’re super weak. They’re just creative about it. To people who can’t outrun a car, a man who you blink and lose track of is fucking terrifying, even if he can’t split continents by sitting down.
As a *firm* believer of attack potency, you would *never* catch me arguing that it is a real, scientific concept, as with powerscaling as a whole. We’re talking about unreal, often blatantly unscientific fictional universes… trying to use actual science to gauge how powerful some of these characters are would be an utter nightmare.
The problem with powerscaling is how to you form a baseline create some standard as a basis for comparing characters from different stories that have different rules. People try use real life as a basis because it is a fair standard, but it just results in rediculous conclusions.
I hate when people try to use real world science in power scaling. If we're gonna say people that dodge lasers are lightspeed reaction do not try bringing real world physics into it. If a person dodges lightning don't telling me how electricity is attracted to something or yadda yadda. Comics/cartoons/anime/fiction has people lifting infinity and running faster than light. Things that are physically impossible or just mean they kill all life on earth by using their powers once
The fundamental problem with powerscaling is, in my opinion, that powerscalers put *way* more thought into what they do than the writers themselves. The example of this that comes to mind is when Seth the Programmer used a statement from Tetsuya Nomura about that one scene in Kingdom Hearts III where Sora changed the timeline to undo the Guardians' defeat several minutes prior to argue that Sora was complex multiversal. Seth's logic made sense, but I highly doubt that Tetsuya Nomura was thinking about the complex math involved in recreating the multiverse from scratch.
@@niloyabid2851 When I call it "the fundamental problem" I'm talking about why powerscaling is stupid and a waste of time. I'm not saying it's a problem with the way the stories are written.
@@HunterStiles651 i mean, when you think about it, most fiction is a waste of time devoid of any direction, id say it then comes down to how you want to waste your time thinking about a fiction, the charas, the plot, themes, or the powerlevels.
@@HunterStiles651 If you enjoy it, it's not a waste of time. I've spent about 30 years *deep* into powerscaling, to the point of spending hours on it nearly every day. Other than sleeping, I don't think there's *anything* I've spent more time on. I would not consider a single *second* of that time wasted, because I enjoyed all of it.
As someone who loves powerscaling for fun I feel the need to say that there are like two types of powerscaling. There’s what I like to call internal powerscaling which is scaling with in a self-contained story and then there’s external powerscaling which is powerscaling between fictional stories. Internal powerscaling is the important one that actually matters as it keeps a story consistent. I’m sure we’ve all been there watched the Flash outrun a bolt of lightning, stop a black hole, etc… and then he gets hit by a dude with a gun for no reason. That’s an example of when someone doesn’t use internal powerscaling it’s when a story doesn’t bother to follow its own internal logic. It’s essentially that A>B>C so A>C but sometimes a story will be weird and have C>A despite it making no sense. That is why I actually care about specifically internal powerscaling. It’s a way for authors and their audience to know stakes and is also the main reason the warf effect occurs. If the strongest guy in the group gets taken out then basic logic and internal powerscaling says that this new threat is also stronger than the other main characters meaning we need to take them seriously and be worried. Also it’s why you aren’t going to see like Krillin beat Beerus and if you did the entire fan base would have a meltdown because that wouldn’t make sense.
It can be fun to talk about how strong a character would be Irl but some people take it too seriously. Power scaling is still fun and shouldn't be treated like the damn plague.
Powerscalers are also often overlooking feats like "faster than light". Not only do they sometimes apply that label because a character dodged a lightbeam looking attack (which visibly traveled slower than a bullet). But completely ignore the implications of it, while citing the laws of physics pften to make their point A.) Characters look at their opponents movements while if they travel faster than light, light reaches their retinas _slower_ than the attack, and even as an outside observer you'd only have 2 states reaching you. B.) The magnitude of a sonic boom created by breaking the sound barrier to that magnitude would be devastating, that's nothing to do with attack potency, that's just matter moving through a gas at a high speed. C.) At such speeds you'd be reaching time dilation in ridiculous ways.
@@metachiralitysurprisingly, light’s slower than you’re thinking. It takes 8 minutes for sunlight to reach earth. That’s why lightyears are a thing, because light takes a lot of time to cross certain distances.
@@live_and_lol that's from the frame of reference of an object that isn't moving at c. lorentz boosting to the frame of reference of a photon would length contract the entire universe into a single plane, for which it would take 0 seconds to cross.
Power scaling is only fun when used to scale two characters from the same story that never interacted and try to figure out who would come out on top based on their opponents and if they had any similar opponents to compare their performance with. Otherwise it's not useful at all.
@@Sappysappster Yes, I don't deny that, read my previous comment again and you'll see how I said that powerscaling can be fun. But overall there comes a point where it gets out of hand and too ridiculous. There comes a point where it turns into a dick measuring contest between the participants, trying to prove that their favorite character can totally beat the other's favorite by any means necessary, even by defying all logic and pre established lore. Like, I've had people try and prove to me that Spiderman is somehow stronger than Invincible (from the Invincible series) which makes absolutely no sense. But using very shitty scaling and the logic behind attack potency they somehow make a silly argument that this is the case.
@Sappysappster I wouldn’t compare it to playing video games. No one gets into long winded debates scales fictional characters to each other for fun. They do it to “win” an argument. It’s like a sad dick measuring contest.
This is part of the reason that I like One Punch Man, people in that universe aren’t the most powerful characters in fiction or anything but when their attacks are powerful we actually get to see the damage it can do😂
It's something that made Dead Mount Death Play feel novel. While characters in that series perform legitimately impressive feats, there's still a level of like "yeah, a human could achieve this", generally speaking. Then you encounter throughout the story these legitimately magical characters and realize like, they CAN meaningfully effect the structure of a building and it puts them on a level significantly higher than the prior "Tall dude with long sword who's good at fighting" without really changing the scope of the story.
i remember learning that kratos vs asura (soon to be a death battle!) was a popular fight and thinking it was a huge mismatch, because asura literally punches a planet-sized man so hard he explodes, only to be told kratos was actually able to destroy the multiverse so he wins easily, despite the fact that in god of war 2018 he visibly struggles to move a large rock
this isn't a shortcoming or power scaling, all they do is follow the logic of the story, if it doesn't make sense it's because the story isn't logically consistant. you can't both catch bullets and be way slower than bullets at the same time. it is normal to not like logical inconsistencies in fiction. and that's the best kind of case when it's just inconsistent with real values of bullet speed worst case scenario they have slow bullets. but sometimes character A is faster than character B even though B is faster than C who is faster than A. and that's just bad writing.
ok but its usually way worse. like saying a character is light speed or something because they dodge lasers but then they take several episodes to go from one place to another. or saying that a character is infinitely fast because it was mentioned in a throw away statement that a place was 'beyond time'(whatever tf that means) and it was sort of implied that they traveled that place if you squint at it kinda.
One thing is to have some inconsistencies, and another to make things up contradicting mostly everything, not only the story itself. And yes you can stop bullets if you are strong enough and if you have good reaction or are well positioned. As for the lasers, what bothers me is them trying to argue that every lasers goes at the speed of light, even if they are way diferent to our own, or even have no problem to say they are even faster. Having beams that go slower than the speed of light in fiction while being completly diferent to the actual thing is a foreing idea to them, yet having it be way faster is something they do not have a problem with. Thats because there is not actual logic, just excuses to wank them as much as posible. A good example of this is One Piece when characters like Kizaru exist and they clearly do not move faster than him. Same with Polnareff and the hanged man
@@Dario-uj6qo maybe I haven't been exposed to the worst of it, but usually when I see that kind of wank it's when the character is compared to another one who is stronger, and it's more to make the point that there are no interpretation where the weaker character wins not that this interpretation is the most logical one.
Ki control is just the fans terminology. The concept of ki control was actually explained in series. Vegeta talks about it during the Cell saga. I'm sure someone else has probably explained this in the comments though.
This guy was trying to make clarity In his video but this is obviously rage bait. Ap=/=DC Speed =/= ap Durability =/=ap Yet he acts like he doesn't know this just to shit on ap as a concept
I mean Ki control really isn't a fan made thing, the whole Beerus vs Goku fight universe destroying feat was literally about Goku not being able to control his output. One thing I heavily agree with is on Doom Slayer and Kratos where they're scaled more on concepts rather then what they actually do during fights, the one I find funniest is when people make a character infinite speed cause they moved in a space without time. One thing I really loved during the Broly movie is when they shattered dimensions actually showing the power behind their punches, as you said Dragon Ball characters really need to learn how to breathe in space so they can throw hands through planets, like when Beerus fought his brother. Loved the video, I'll keep enjoying powers scaling though cause I have a simple brain and seeing big number against big number makes my monkey brain happy.
i feel like powerscalers need to learn the difference between energy, force, and pressure before they start yapping about how gokus kamehameha doesnt blow up planets everytime it is used
Powerscalling is a hobby, attack the concept all you wanr but in the end of the day its just a subchapter of the internet doing what they think is fun, sure some vs debaters get pissy but theyre only common when you actively look for them. I genuinely dont agree with the notion of "powerscallers are all jobless losers" Becauss that is attacking people for what they find fun. Its all just for fun, we like seeing how strong a fictional character is with real math. Sure its not physically possible but its fiction, its all up to interpretation
So true, but i just dislike how often versus debating & powerscaling are lumped together as the same thing when people complain about the community around it. Versus debates can get toxic fast, like "can he beat goku?/nobody beats goku" Most of the time those videos are complaining about versus debaters getting pissy, but they just lump powerscalers as the same cause they dont see a difference.
@@Uwhwvwgwh Yes, power scaling is shipping for men. We know this. There's nothing wrong with liking either (to an extent, once you start shipping minors with adults, then you have problems)
Authors care about telling a good story. Nobody cares about powerscaling except powerscalers. The whole point of superhero comics is for a hero to overcome a villain that is usually superior to them in some way. Case in point, if you powerscaled John Constantine against the things he goes up against, he loses every time, but due to wit and trickery, he finds a way to come out on top. I personally don't see the appeal of reducing characters to D&D stat sheets.
Superman is widely biased Like they just do favoritism for him and dumb and numb other heroes who are supposed to be similar i.e Shazam and martial man hunter... That's why I like invincible It's power scaling is much more realistic than any version of DC animation or not They scale very well Take for instance the stupid fight against doomsday and Justin league members Superman fought like he's the only superhero on dooms level while there's literally mm and we who can go on toe to toe Especially mm everytime he just gets burned alive while Shazam who is a Kryptonian level character just gets knwcked around like a cat lol @@caliginousmoira8565
@@jameslight4391 Yes powerSCALING matters, powershitting is the issue here. Me being low planetary level makes perfect sense. I literally burned the earth, easily. Because I am basically an giant space menace. And my whole thing is being an pyro maniacal world destroyer. This is powerscaling. Superman cannot even be called an superhero anymore because now he has literal infinite and now boundless feats more like an god. This bullshit is powershitting.
I enjoy a powerscaling vid from time to time but they definitely lose me when I hear “this character based on this one scene can obliterate the multiverse 10 trillion times over”
There is a I believe 2.5 hour OP powerscalinf video that "proves" that Gear 5 Luffy is planetary, but the entire scaling is based on one panel, where buggy gets hit by the buggy bomb. Yes, 2.5 HOURS of scaling all based on 1 PANEL. The guy tries to prove his scaling when he reaches the Fishman Island arc by comparing a feat to an earlier feat which was still calculated off that 1 panel, literally proving nothing.
I feel like powerscaling is important to have internally though. If you make a character sit specifically on some sort of pecking order and have someone above them lose a fight to the weaker character then you have to give a reason why the fight played out that way or you throw the audience’s suspension of disbelief
can people stop making powercalers up to be a bunch of cringy cry babies, sure some of us are like that, but that could be say for any internet community, we are just people that are having fun our own ways. but fun video though
Agree, I genuinely don’t even care from a power scaling perspective, i honestly only care from a film critic perspective. I love the grand spectacle of strong characters fights being so destructive, it makes the fights so climatic and other worldly. That’s genuinely the only reason I remember man of steel at all, because I Superman and Zod launching each other through skyscrapers, with the mere shockwaves of their attacks pulverizing buildings like there made of sand, looks so awesome to me.
Characters being strong is cool, inconsistency doesn't matter as long as the story is fun. I've never actually heard about the attack potency thing, it sounds dumb lol, but nonetheless, big numbers are fun so let power scalers do what they want, it doesn't really have any affect on the story considering that as you mentioned most writers don't give a shit about power scaling.
It makes those people less able to appreciate writing when all they care about is power and not the many other aspects of what makes stories resonate with us. It's not a complete tragedy, but it is a bad thing.
@@danieltodorov7753 People should just be able to enjoy whatever aspect of a story they want. I definitely prefer when a series is well written over the characters being strong, for example my 3 favourite battle shounen anime/manga are Yu Yu Hakusho, HxH and Rurouni Kenshin but sometimes dumb power levels are just cool to see. Putting that aside, what are power scalers really doing that's so harmful to anyone but themselves and their own free time? As mentioned they certainly have no effect over the author's and as long as you don't let them bother you they have no sway over anything else.
@@joshuafrazier3904 an opinion they don't have a right to push onto others? they just shared an opinion online that nobody is even obligated to read, nobody got forced to except or believe anything lol. Someone replied to their comment and they replied back, so it wasn’t even unwarranted for them to say something back. what exactly do you mean by push onto others? Normally that implies force doesn’t it.
@@dylanbarrett508They literally say that powerscalers can't enjoy stories because they'e too focused on powerscaling. Are you illiterate or just a troll?
I'm not a power scaler but the "Ki Control" stuff is real, the ki blasts that they do can be tiny or big as seen in the games and the actual show itself. The Kamehameha is also made up of Ki and the characters can bend it using their "Ki Control". I've never stepped foot inside the dragon ball community and I've heard of "Ki Control" before.
This makes me appreciate DCEU fight scenes even more, Superman punching Zod and vice versa was creating shock waves over and over and their fight destroyed majority of Metropolis like its made of cardboards
@danieltodorov7753 I wasn't sure but I just looked into it and apparently it's a special gunsmith named Nell from the novels who specifically made the guns for him so he can infuse his demonic energy in them so yeah their definently not normal guns.
man took a 30 minute dump on the entire power scaling community .... absolutely goated you echoed sentiments I felt for a long time and I'm glad someone finally said it
What I hate is when they tell but don't show. This is especially relevant in Dragon Ball... They're talking about how "Those two clashing is literally shaking/destroying the entire universe!" But they don't even hurt the planet they're fighting on... Hell, not even a city, not even a street. Like those statement are there just to make power scalers hard or something.
This is honestly one of the better deconstructions of power scaling I have seen so far. I don't particularly hate power scaling but I always found the concept of attack potency to be flawed. Good to see someone else who agrees on this. Very nice and detailed video.
There’s no such this as bad power scaling. The issue is bad writing. You don’t need to be a power scaler to understand a story’s inconsistencies in power levels is the WRITER’S fault. Power scalers simply apply logic to what’s shown on screen. Idk what’s so hard to understand about that.
I mean, I have seen bad powerscaling before. Characters that are clearly outerversal being labeled as hyperversal. Like Luke Lerdwichigul in the SMG4 canon. The Great Beyond is clearly an outerverse (or higher in the long system) and Luke can erase the entire SMG4 cosmology by deleting his channel but they scaled him at hyperversal because they refuse to acknowledge that the Great Beyond is an outerverse. So, power scalers can do a bad job. VSBW usually does a good job but many characters are missing and the system they use is an inherently flawed system. It's why I made the long system in the first place.
My favorite moments in dragon ball are when characters who are capable of destroying the planet force the hero’s into a situation where they either stop this attack or the entire planet will be gone. Or when powerful characters have to willingly down themselves so that they don’t kill everyone around them by punching the bad guy.
The only problem i have with powers scalers is that they think they have a PHD in theoretical physics, they keep trying to talk about black holes and some complex summarized topic like idk newtonian spaces it scales to this and that, this character is multi dimensional when the best of their knowledge is F=ma and they keep talking so arrogantly like they are the next Einstein
So the whole point of power scaling is just to have fun seeing whether one character could beat another character from different verses so we use actual metrics to determine that it’s the best way we can figure out how strong a character is also just because a character can destroy a universe with its punch doesn’t actually mean I can do that. It just means the punch it generated has the same energy yield asdestroying a universe would.
It might be worse when such a high attack potency only applies to a specific weapon or power, nothing else in a character's arsenal, but powerscalers just slap that AP onto EVERYTHING the character has (and/or even ignore the rule of Kryptonites). Like, there's a reason certain moves in, say, video games have differing attack power values, and even why some have type weaknesses.
Most power scalers will just say the max power a characters has that they can use under normal circumstances and just go if they land blank attack they can win. Not that every punch is equal to their strongest attack
I always remember that first appearance: Vegeta charging his ki blast made the earth rumble and lightning appear… FIRST APPEARANCE!!! By Buu's arc, he should punch a wall and destroy the Milky Way.
for dragon ball i've always seen it as them channeling the 'energy/power' into their target. when they use blasts they should destroy everything especially when it gets knocked away.
@@elcalabozodelandroide2 control de q? si el fenomeno no depende Vegeta, depende le la cantidad de energia q acumula, se produce es por acumular mucha energia muy rapido en un lugar muy pequeño... ahora reuna 1000 mas energia y mas rapido y a la atmosfera ni la tierra no le pasa nada.... lol
This is funny, and I love when a series gives characters this power and actually uses it properly, my favorite example of this, is Asuras wrath, bro casually punches a demi god larger than the planet into pieces when bro was like, the size of a speck of dust compared to the giant demi god
This is why I love one punch man, very straight to the point and you get the visuals for what the character can actually do. You don't have to guess and make feats up out of thin air
In fiction, I don't think that having the power to destroy a planet is necessarily conducive to being able to actually destroy a planet due to the range and scale of certain attacks. For example if you have a laser that can cut through anything, except it has a 1 mm width and a reach of 10 m. This laser can cut through x character that survived a planet busting attack, therefore this Lazer has more energy than the planet busting attack. That said, this laser cannot destroy the planet even though it theoretically has the energy to do so because the scale of the attack won't allow it and this fictional universe ignores all laws of thermodynamics. With that in mind, the energy of an attack is not an accurate measure of its effectiveness. A bullet has far more force than a sword, yet kevlar can block bullets but can be cut with a sword.
As a former Dragon Ball fanfiction role player (I will not explain what that is), I found the best way to communicate the scale and power of a feat is to apply the mathematical physical consequences. You don't need the math to be accurate, you just need the environment to react accordingly. You need to apply the physics. This in turn allows you to scale down things to a reasonable level while still communicating the strength of a character. You don't need universe busting feats, just apply real physics to building or mountain level feats and it'll feel plenty powerful.
One of my favorite things was realizing that planets like Earth aren't really solid. Sure they have a cool, solid crust, but that crust is super thin and is more like a micron layer of ice on a vast ocean of water. If a small earth mass object hit the surface an exploded, it would splash. The earth would ripple and wobble and turn into this molten bubble. That'd be cool to look at, but what's the point? Take that consideration for the physics and scale it down for some really effective superhuman street level conflicts.
But that's the point, my friend. It's not that powerscalers are wrong-because they’re not. Catching a bullet is a feat that a speedster moving at Mach 3 couldn't replicate. The issue lies with the writers, who are often inconsistent and struggle to maintain internal logic and consistency. Some examples may seem silly to you, but that’s likely because you’re not focused on the math involved in those situations. But then, you get cases like Black Panther defeating the Silver Surfer with a headlock or Batman dodging an Omega Beam, and suddenly, the frustration of powerscalers becomes understandable. This is a problem of careless writing; powerscalers just highlight the flaws. And honestly, most powerscalers don’t really take it that seriously-it’s more of a fun hobby. They know the author might not be great with math, but they still enjoy the story. Powerscaling logic is usually solid, and people rarely debunk it. However, since the conclusions sometimes clash with the world the writer intended, it can lead to some humorous critiques.
Batman dodging the omega beams is not an issue because it is a story and in stories the hero (usually) wins. The person who wins the fight is whoever the author wants to win either because of the plot, drama, themes, etc. There is no amount of fav character powerscaling wanking that can change that.
@@sam7559 Disagree hard on that. An author should make the universe internally consistent if it isn't a gag (this is the exception, jokes don't need to make sense in a conventional way). Wouldn't people be mad if Batman just woke one day and won in a race against a serious Flash? Maybe not. But many would if the logic used is just bad, like Batman just straight up being faster because he is fucking Batman. Batman dodging an omega beam is cool until you think how the fuck the man with human level strength can just out maneuver something that can catch much faster characters like Superman. Do you believe that Batman can dodge things that are probably lightspeed (because they actually hit speedsters with ease, with the exception of the Flash) ? Do you think a human can do it even if they predict exactly what is happening? It's hype that batman dodged that! I'm not gonna lie about that! But! It also makes you think about how the fuck it happens and if the only logic is that the writter wanted it to happen... Then it just breaks immersion and, consequently, the stakes in the story. If the writter doesn't have to care about the internal consistency of the universe they are working on, then the reader is left with an empty feeling that nothing matters, because the stakes never existed. The result was predermined from the very beggining and the journey to it is just something that doesn't matter at all.
@thalesgarcia6955 "The result was predermined from the very beginning" Yes, they always having been. Fiction writers aren't looking into a special window and then creating a documentary on what they see. Goku, Superman, Batman, they always win because the writer choose for them to win, not because they're writer did a complex math equation and determined that Freiza's punches can only blow up planets that are 95.68% percent of the size Goku can blow up.
@@sam7559 Yes, but it the job of the writter to hide that fact. The writter needs to create tension and just being obvious that there is no other reason for something to happen other than "it was written so" kills it. Also, just to be clear, I'm not speaking of the author following equations and all that. I'm just talking about things that pass an extreme. Like a character that is just peak real life martial artist fighting hand to hand with creatures that are hypersonic and somehow winning (generic example, not talking about batman here). Also, I don't believe in powerscaling characters from different stories. That is just for fun, but only that. Different universes, different rules and incompatible narrative makes for a poor combination in finding any logic in a discussion. There is no reason to take this seriously. Internal universe consistency is the thing that matters to me not because of how much physics, math or whatever is broken, but because the writter previously convinced me of something to just say otherwise when its convenient. Batman and the omega beam is the perfect example, because the writter made me believe that batman is extremely weaker and slower than the rest of the justice league. The omega beam was convincing in it being undodgeable (except if your title is Flash). Then, somehow, the writter wants me to believe batman can dodge it just because he can predict it? I just can't and it kills the tension because from now on, the information the writter gives can be just negated on a whim.
@@sam7559 An author has absolute power, but this doesn't mean they should use it recklessly. If an author makes a character do something beyond their established capabilities without providing an explanation, it breaks the illusion of stakes. Part of the fun in an action story is watching how a character will succeed or fail against a challenge. The story becomes boring if the audience realizes the author is lazy and solves problems by ignoring the rules of their own work. Restrictions, like 'Batman is just a human,' are boundaries for the writer and promises to the reader. These promises ensure the author won't resolve conflicts in arbitrary ways, making the story more engaging. They challenge the writer to find creative solutions within the framework they've established.
Main issue is that the powerscaling is inconsistent asf in comics, they can have thanos come in but i feel no fear for any character cause the bad writers can make some BS as to how captain America beat thanos with his bare hands while barely being able to life a truck. It makes it less fun cause the inconveniences will keep changing the strength levels
(if i make too big of a comment RUclips takes it down) examples are how superman is being slightly overwhelmed by batman without kryptonite meanwhile superman takes fown beings that are conically outerversal
Thank-you! I've been thinking about this very thing...for YEARS!!! From God of War to Supernatural, this concept has made power creep rise far too rapidly, while having useless characters still have a chance against them. "One human soul has the power of a hundred supernovas!" "In my true form, I'm as big as the Sears Tower." "I just got my ass kicked by Bozo the clown..."
I agree with basically everything you say in this video, except that you can't have a form of "attack potency". One example I had in a story idea was one where the characters were actually capable of destroying planets, but they were all able to absorbe that level of energy to get them to be damaged. But this gives the factor that if any of these characters are fighting each other, they need to be very careful not to miss a single strike or they are killing everyone on the planet. So there can be an explanation for something like that, but most of the explanations I've heard are rediculous.
I just remember the fight between Hulk and Thor in the first Avengers. They tore through walls, jets, and Hulk crunched against the ground just *trying* to lift Mjolnir, only for Thor to rock up and prove how the Hulk wasn’t worthy, and slammed him with the hammer! That was a showcase of might, and it was in PHASE 1!!!
Ki control is honestly such an amazing concept without any holes whatsoever! Good thing the mindless, feral Cell Max was polite enough not to blow up the planet during his rampage at full power, am I right? 🙃
12:31 to point out; ki control is a thing, otherwise you wouldn't have people who could hide their true power/ strength. As it was noted by Vegeta that they can hide their power level. Even with slipping under the radar. (not counting Androids) Also the only writer that has appealed to/ focused heavily on power scaling is the writer for Hunter X Hunter from what I've seen with his complex power system.
5:25 I was just watching a Krillin vs vid where they said the same thing. Even though Krillin has never slightly been shown to be able to do it in the show.
ok but why, why would they show krillin doing that in a show, they already showed piccolo blow up a moon with a casual ki blast a million sagas ago and krillin's much stronger than that in-universe. Thats how fiction works, plot over perfect feat consistency.
Because he can? I mean he is galaxy level already but why would he even try? He is a human he doesn't want to blast the solar system in under a minute and the show doesn't wanna do that?
As someone who likes to power scale I completely agree. Power scalers will completely ignore all logic and context and purely look at stats at their peak. They'd take two characters, one that can throw a punch so fast it can create a bubble as hot as the sun, and another characters who with their strongest punch against a boxing bag, broke their hand and so much as put a hole in the bag; then clearly character one is stronger right...no bc I left out the context that character two is a full grown man and character one is a mantis shrimp...
Haven’t watch the video but I feel like the reason why some character don’t feel like they match their strength is because it would simply make many fights way too over the top and because it’s kinda restrictive to write problems for them.
Never saw this dude more white in my life but now I'll watch every single video he drops for the next decade 100%. Dude could've speak english but instead he choose speak FACTS.
@OnlyLiarGameFan Yes we all think that saying that your favorite fictional character is 'super duper mega ultra versal' and 52475 dimensional makes you very cool.
The author of jjk did actually debunk the mach 3 later and to be fair people will get mad it's like you watch the flash going light speed or something like that then a random guy with a gun take him down just for the sake of plot sometimes The author have the right to do what they want but sometimes they do some weird stuff like goku blowing up planets then he can't lift 40 tons lol
I agree by the way, your head it's the literally most fun thing i found here in my day (non offense intended) it's like the most funny charácter i could find into a future-toon series full of parody characters, it's beutiful
Great video, but I have some thoughts. First, I really like this discussion because I have met plenty of "power scalers" who completely misunderstand concepts in power scaling and these same people will confidently make crazy statements they have no ability to defend. I engage in power scaling as a critical thinking activity, as sometimes, an authors intent gets lost. By figuring out what the potential of a characters feats are it gives a better reference for how far a character has come or how far they still need to go to get to where the author has set their destination. I have found that when someone likes a character they can end up manipulating feats or intentionally misunderstand a narrative moment to favor their interpretation of a character. And while these bad actors exist in the community I found it disheartening to see the video seemed to frame the entire community as petulant or miserable. Now, I wanted to address the idea of attack potency as I always saw it much like one would hold an egg firmly without crushing it or maintaining footing while throwing a punch. These are actions in discipline or control, something core to all kinds of training and I found this to explain why the idea of attack potency exists in almost all discussions even across fictional worlds. While I agree that it is silly for anyone to represent attack potency as real in relation to physics, the calculations some will do to show attack potency are abstractions based off of observations from the fiction using real world energy information. I believe this is where the largest misunderstandings between the author and the community come from as an author may have simply meant to show a "one off" with character doing something flashy but now some people are treating this as a new benchmark. Again, the key here is critical thinking and if this is an outlier the larger community will likely dismiss these claims until more is shown by the author to support this with consistency. Also an author may never engage with the community or even attempt to keep things consistent, nor do they have to. This is the reason I enjoy powerscaling, it keeps people engaged and thinking about the material. In the end, you may end up coming to your own conclusions because there is likely no definite answer or you may just agree with the last person who made a good point in a video essay. Thank you for your time.
Cannon does matter.I'm annoyed about the idea that you actually want every fight in Dragonball to be cataclysmic. It's a martial arts gag series, do i think most of the fighters in the series can destroy galaxies easily? yes but i love the story as well and the humor just as much as the power of the characters but their power wouldn't mean anything to anyone if it weren't for the story of how they got there at least we have some explanation other than they felt like it.
@supermaximglitchy1 and the gags were facilitated by the story he was tell he was making it up but he was following journey to the west while loosely he still made many references to the original story and using the story of son wu Kong to develop his story
I do disagree with the “kid control” point, not because it isn’t accurate to the story, but because it wasn’t the community that made it, it was Toriyama. It’s mentioned several times throughout the story. For example, most recently, broly is chastised for not having good enough control over his power. That and dragon ball has several points where they actually show the power of characters full on. It isn’t realistic at all, but it is given by the writer.
The reason they don’t destroy these things is because it doesn’t make sense for them to destroy these things they’re supposed to be heroes and then the case of Dragon Ball specifically, they literally went through the trouble of explaining it in battle of gods
@supermaximglitchy1 yeah? It makes sense for most of the dragon ball villains. Most of them would die if they were on an exploding planet, frieza was scared to use his own power to accidentally destroy the planet and kill himself which is why it didn't blow up immediately, cell wanted to actually fight the people and buu really did destroy the planet
My god, I’m so glad someone is saying this. People really need to stop with this logic born from DBZ power scaling. Unless the threat a character is facing can not be solved using force, or the story takes place on a galactic scale (meaning the story is about traveling through space). Then the story should end after the characters reach planet buster level’s of power. Stories in general are at their best when they stay at street level’s of power.
@@ether2275 you are technically correct. But I would say the most important thing is that characters are not overpowered for the story the writer wishes to tell. For example, Dragonball Z, or super would not be as popular if it was consistent with its power scaling. If it was the story would quickly become stale and boring. People want stories that are both interesting and consistent.
When you bring anime and cartoons like regular show into it, powerscaling Marvel just seems kinda like saying which dog could beat which in dogfighting.
What the writer probably meant is that base Hulk cannot destroy a planet without a weapon or machine which is true. He can't and VSBW acknowledges this. However, Grey Hulk can destroy a planet. The problem is that when people think of Hulk, they think of Green Hulk.
Powerscaling in general isnt bad. In fact alot of people who claim they hate powerscalers, are indeed themselves powersclaers. All powerscaling is is determining what characters are capable of based on feats theyve preformed before. Its as simple as Character A has only shown to be able to lift 500 lbs. Character B has shown to be able to lift 1,000 lbs. Based on that information Character B is stronger than charcacter A. At the end of the day it is ultimately on the writer to be aware of the characters feats and show what they're capable of and explaoning why planet busters dont detsroy the planet with their fights. The fans can only take the information the writer and the story gives.
Attack Potency doesn't explain it but there is something that can. What I am about to say is wild and could change science forever. It's a concept that most people don't understand. But I have to say it. The characters are pulling their punches. They aren't using their full strength, purely because of the destruction it would cause. They only use it when it is necessary to beat the character, in which case, the character probably has durability strong enough to absorb most of the damage.
I feel like a part of the power scaling problem is the way its put. So a bullet can kill a god by piercing bcs it works like that but if u fire the same bullet into a planet its just a bullet in the ground. As for energy blasts I agree
3:38 there’s a this guy on tiktok who keeps scaling tobey maguire spider-man to beat people like hancock, superman, thor..etc & it’s so annoying because you know “realistically” if they fought peter would lose no hesitation.
it mainly comes down to narrative convenience. Because let's be honest, if the universe split in half every time the Hulk punched Abomination the story would kind of be counter intuitive to him saving people. That's not an excuse for the writers oversight but it's why that happens. Attack potency was created as head canon for the debate community to explain away this issue and allow the discussions to even happen in the first place. If you wanna win in a lot of cases, when they bring up a character's power and use terms from a wiki like VSBW for example just say "that's not official to the comics, I don't except it" and that's done. I stopped doing that kind of thing because something about this chronic online arguing makes people very toxic and even gets into real world implications, like doxing for example. The only debates I engage in are real world things, such as theology or sports, and occasionally politics. In those spaces you can't use "outerversal" or any other made up term to win. You actually have to actually debate for real and that's where I get the enjoyment out of it, the actual discussions not the "speed blitz bfr narrative transcendence, concede you rat" nonsense.
I think there was only one time DBZ where the level of Goku or anyone else's power really sets in and its the Cell Tournament. First was the scene when Goku charged up a Kamehamaha and everyone was so afraid that if he fired it towards earth from the sky it would have destroyed the planet and the next time was when Cell bitched out and tried to blow up everything. outside of that the tournaments in super were held in the space between universes because of the destructive powers of the participates and the arenas were made my angels but that doesn't really show the raw power of the people in dragon ball
@coolbeans107 I get what you mean but it still didn't feel like a universe was wiped out. You didn't see the countless amounts of galaxies because erased. It just shows that zeno getting rid of zamasu but if they didn't say the entire universe was wiped you wouldn't have known
the funniest BS i've ever read was a claim that, because someone moved so fast they couldn't be seen, that means they're faster than _the speed of light_ instead of, like, human perception. Genius.
I disagree in some stuff, the point in planet level destruction is very clear in dbz for example, vegeta came to earth and if goku loses the entire earth goes with him... freeza destroys namek and this drives a good part of the plot of the arc... kid buu destroys the planet when he appears and kills a lot of the main characters, etc... theres a lot of moments where the character being planet level makes a massive difference in the story... It all started with roshi blowing up the moon to make goku destransform from oozaru form. Of course, in other stories a lot of times it doesn't make much differences indeed...
I agree if you are power scaling fiction you have to look in the story if it consistent for characters do have the power to create or destroy celestial bodies and cosmic structures because people make up tiers like Hyperversal and Outerversal to put their characters in which make no sense if something like a Omniverse doesn’t exist in the narrative of the author doesn’t know about what is power scaling
Some power scalers make up other things like appeal to reality which make no sense because the most common thing about fiction and reality from a physical perspective is that they both are typically depicted as having three spatial dimensions of length width and height just like our world
Writers either need to stop making their characters so strong they can't properly depict that strength, or figure out how to consistently depict that strength within the confines of their stories. "He's holding back" makes sense, but it can only carry you so far.
Have never dealt with this when it comes to power scaling. I just view it as "There is a strategy for everything. And some characters just don't have that strategy."
If you believe death battle, almost every character can move and fight a million times faster than light and destroy the universe thousands of times with a single punch.
Broth: I would, not that my author can animate. . . I would show you something. . . but your power level is through the roof. Also, the audience is itself and many people, but you're right.
I do this as a hobby. The ones that treat it like it's their entire existence is cringe. I personally don't relate much to what this video is stating, but I get it. Hell, that was my mindset when I tried out fictional vs. debates. But after I just let "fiction is fiction, it's not that deep" I mostly have fun with it and get me into deeper discussions on certain aspects of vs debates. For instance, "if this character is horribly written as well as unliked, do we still roll with how they fit into vs debates?" Then, depending on who you ask, you just go with which side of logic you go for, and both agree, then just go for it. If not, it's agree to disagree. Though I do find it hilarious for you to say, "Why hasn't anyone bother acknowledging why these characters can't do these feats that are stated?" Well, almost no one is willing to animate or draw the feats in full more times than not for how much effort it takes. So they show it off a few times and leave it as statements afterward so the audience will know how strong one individual is to another. Also, there's more than one way of defeating a character in a fight rather than just throwing hands and shooting with guns.
I think a good point people ignore in power scaling is the weaker character knows about the cap, Lex luthor knows superman is to strong for him to punch so he has a plan, or will look for some weapon or find a character that can hurt him. In the superman vs Hulk story the plot was Lex Luthor got the two to fight knowing that hulk and superman can hurt each other but he can't hurt either the goal was they fight I hope they both die. On a power scale does lex compare no but the plan might work
One series that i think does powerscalling quite is Toriko, the progression is quite consistent, and they actually show the boom boom cool stuff Also, I feel like the authors themselves tend to not understand how powerful their characters are, so when we clearly see the character do some planetary level stuff, but the author just doesn't understand the physics needed for it, and then say they're city level or something, it just feels immersion breaking Like Moro absorbing the power of a planet somehow being a big deal, when planets should be exploding everytime the characters even move. So it feels kind of annoying to say "you're literally disagreeing with the author" as an argument, cause what's being shown and what's being told is not matching up.
9:30 that was so fucking funny that power scaler claims to use physics to calculate feat but actually don't understand physics at all, like catching a pistol is something Bruce Lee could do yet they somehow mental gymnastics their ass to hyper sonic, and even worse is scene of "teleportation effect" they straight up treat it like actually teleportation when it's just to show the character being fast and vanish
Bruce Lee could in fact not catch a bullet centimeters from his face while resting last minute, scientifically speaking. It’s pretty funny how a powerscaler that uses physics to calculate feats didn’t understand physics at all.
The special pleading/double standard of power scalers is crazy, if we normies try to make sense of fiction using real life logic and physics they will call it "appeal to reality fallacy" (yes they say shit like that) but if they want to know how powerful a feat is OF COURSE THEY USE REAL WORLD LOGIC AND PHYSICS and that's not a fallacy somehow.
@@racuncai it's very dependent on what exactly you are referring to with those terms as many misuse them. Appeal to reality fallacy is just when you assume things in a fictional universe MUST adhere to the real world which is not always the case. "Good" powerscalers will use real world physics to try and calculate different feats but if certain physics or structures of that fictional universe are different then they have to adjust for those facts in some way when making arguments and calculations.
Okay so it boils down to he wants to see more explosions and he doesn't like the excuse of attack potency or key controller just generally have in control over your abilities to not destroy your surroundings as it would definitely make living there not super difficult for the characters that learn these but he did come after some power escalators that use you know attack potency so overall yeah
This vid got some real damn interesting feedback from the power scalers so I’ll respond to my favourite sentiments here (I’m on mobile plz excuse my grammar my oomfie lil kittens :3):
“It’s just a hobby bro it’s not that deep” - I’m making fun of your hobby and there’s nothing you can do to stop me nuh nicky nuh nuh hehehe 😝
“Ki control is canon to dragon ball actually!!” - This is really interesting to me so I’m going to make a video analysing every instance in dragon ball where fans say “Ki control” is proven to exist, all of the examples I got in the comments were straight up lies or accidental misrememberings; taking similar ideas out of context like the Goku vs Beerus clash, but hey who knows ya’ll might be right, I’ll do a lot of research and make a full video dissecting the concept.
“Doom Slayer and Dante’s guns aren’t regular guns!” - I think some of em are tho? You can unlock better shteez as you progress and there’s some lore about demon energy being infused with bullets but overall this really doesn’t affect the point; the idea of bullets hurting demons so therefore every single one of Doom Slayer’s punches is canonically power equivalent to the energy needed to blow up every Doom map infinity times over is absolutely bat shit insane lol. It’s just really funny brain rot, I luv you guys.
“Attack potency is real actually!” - …yes, that’s- that’s the point. A lot of these arguments really highlight some of ya’ll didn’t watch the vid and got mad anyway. This video is about (among some other things) why attack potency happens, and why I don’t like it.
“Inconsistent power scaling is entirely the author’s fault.” - Power scaling is an inconsistent practice in its own right, plus there’s a couple kinds of power scaling (author scaling and fan scaling) and both have their intricacies, flaws and problems. But even taking these comments at face value I actually mention in the video the fact that authors don’t care about mathematics, I agree with you on the fact that authors mess this shit up, why ya’ll going for my throat 😅 My argument wasn’t that authors should be scientifically accurate 100% of the time and should employ hardcore fan approved power scaling in all their works, it was that fans shouldn’t expect authors to hardcore power scale in the first place! People malding over the Mach 3 thing saying “the author admitted he was wrong actually” YEESSSSSS! That’s what I’m saying! You’re understanding!!!!
Some of the detractors for this vid have brought up some really interesting and well thought out points (don't you ever think I'm saying I don't want critiques at all, I'm a new creator, I CRAVE critique), but a vast portion of this comment section is 30% people calling me a dumb bitch, 30% “it’s just a lil hobby we’re all nice really ❤” and 40% accidentally or purposefully misinterpreting all of the things I say and comparmentalising this into a little "gotcha!"
I’m still early in my RUclips career so I’m learning a lot; no matter how well I research my shteez a good portion of the communities I dissect will hate my guts, but I’m going to get better and better (I SHALL BECOME MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE MUHAHAHA) at this so I hope I’ll be able to produce something each and every one of you can enjoy eventually.
Don't know about DMC but yeah doomguy guns are conventional guns with the occasional futuristic or esoteric one like the ballista or BFG but most of them are stuff that we have IRL like the shotguns, heavy machineguns and chainsaws the argument that they're not normal guns is based on a statement from the devs taken out of context where they say that he confirms doom guns are magically enhanced when all he actually says is that the quad damage power-up is Canon and not a game mechanic
This video isn't a dissection of the community, it's just you hating on it for no reason than you being bitter. Of course the community will not like you.
@@thelordz33 40%
@@MidnightRants I do you can make a badass overpowered planet buster who never shows it. Like have a pacifist monk for the first half never throw a punch then when he does it makes massive shock waves and he says sorry and never does it again. Also I hate the reverse power scalers saying thats a no limits fallacy for Gods in fiction, We don't have to show omnipotence if the story implys it they might be till proven otherwise, can two difference characters be omnipotence yes if they exist in separate stories.
@@thelordz33 Midnight probably encountered a few Gokutards then assumed every power scaler are like them.
Powerscaler: “Superman has an infinite mass strength in the book”
Readers: “So he can punch as hard as the writer wants him to punch”
Here is the narrative point of giving him that infinite power so when he encounter kryptonite or magic and loses the power there are stakes. As know he has to fight the guy he beat easy without his powers and the roles are flipped
Yes, but problem is the inconveniences in powerscaling is what makes lazy writing, they can show thanos come down and fight wolerine and I'll already know wolverine wins by some bs writing
@ It wouldn’t be power scaling it would be power creep in how the characters are written for example hulk vs Thanos, Hulk always loses to Thanos. Despite the Hulk in the comics being stated by multiple heroes and villains that he can delete the MU (Marvel Universe) when mad. Without fail Thanos throws a punch and the Hulk is TKO instantly. In general point, I want to say it all depends on the writer's perspective and whoever writing the character at the time would win.
@ yeah jt comes to favoritism or just being inconsistent
well, milkman man canonically dictates his writer what to write
Powerscaling is the masculine form of shipping.
Yeah and we like it that way.
@@Lordmaster135 lets all have our own cringe
Are you saying men can't like romance🤨🤨🤨
Fandom shippers trying hard not reveal their own fantasies...
No, but seriously, this makes no sense. You're just saying you see a weird sexual dynamic in this. Way to tell on yourself, bro.
@@l-x-10 On that we agree
I like to call this the Chuunibyou problem, where characters in fiction are described to be incredibly powerful, because it sounds cool, but little thought is given to the practical implications, so they don't look as powerful as they should.
I wanna have this term be real and become a thing writers should be wary of
Where'd Chuunibyou come from?
@@concept5631 It's a colloquialism from Japan.
@@TheLolrider Ahh
@@concept5631 A better term I've come up with is "Playground Powerscaling," which I think rolls off the tongue better.
Power scaling has made talking about characters like the flash so annoying
I swear if i hear one more guy saying: "this character x is small galaxy level and 60x faster then light" then i am gonna lose it fr
@@justreadberserkd1021"this character, tom, is above reality and moves at speed which can't be measured. Still loses to Jerry tho."
The only thing i like is when it causes "he can move faster than teleporting and 1 second is always like 3 days for him, he looses to baby with regular gun" moments @@Blackvoidwithwhiteside7193
@@Blackvoidwithwhiteside7193Nah Tom Solos
I mean that’s because the flash is infuriatingly inconsistent there’s no powerscaling there just annoyance at how the fastest man alive got tagged by a dude with a gun. Literally how?!?!?
Power scalers: Sonic The Hedgehog can run at 18 times the speed of light
Sonic Gameplay: I wonder if I can shave 7 seconds off of this 500 meter corridor.
Sonic gameplay after the half kilometer corridor:
**escapes a black holes for 30 seconds by pressing x*
It’s not physically possible to make something move that fast…yet
He's also able to be perceived by Doctor Eggman and can create robots that can match his speed
@@TwistedLullabies nah bro eggman is just built different lol
@@TwistedLullabies Don't forget that Eggman can also keep up with sonic as well, because he can perceive and react to FTL movements. Which makes Eggman a galaxy level character, at the very least
"If you have ever known the pleasures of a woman's touch or the joys of touching grass, it's probably your first time hearing it......" 😭😭😭bro why are you attacking your target audience???
He had to in order to really get people to pay attention
@@PhillipRubio578 and it worked
Well why else are they called "target"
He just speaking facts
Something I love about jjk is that it’s pretty much the antithesis to this problem. Power scaling wise, outside of some absolute bullshit, the strongest characters can’t even wipe out a city. Yet when a character like Toji or Sukuna comes around you FEEL how strong they are and they’re terrifying because the story generally does a great job at showcasing their power when realistically as far as anime go, they’re super weak. They’re just creative about it. To people who can’t outrun a car, a man who you blink and lose track of is fucking terrifying, even if he can’t split continents by sitting down.
Pretty sure gojo wiped out the majority of shinjuku
Jesus Christ loves you
@@joshuaharper8957 but can he beat Goku?!?!?
@@MidnightRantshe wins no diff
@@MidnightRants absolutely
As a *firm* believer of attack potency, you would *never* catch me arguing that it is a real, scientific concept, as with powerscaling as a whole. We’re talking about unreal, often blatantly unscientific fictional universes… trying to use actual science to gauge how powerful some of these characters are would be an utter nightmare.
People trying to project real world physics onto fictional stories when the characters start unambiguously moving faster than light: 💀💀💀
The problem with powerscaling is how to you form a baseline create some standard as a basis for comparing characters from different stories that have different rules. People try use real life as a basis because it is a fair standard, but it just results in rediculous conclusions.
Thank you, that's always been something that's annoyed me about power scaling, even during my "Powerscaler" phase.
I hate when people try to use real world science in power scaling. If we're gonna say people that dodge lasers are lightspeed reaction do not try bringing real world physics into it. If a person dodges lightning don't telling me how electricity is attracted to something or yadda yadda. Comics/cartoons/anime/fiction has people lifting infinity and running faster than light. Things that are physically impossible or just mean they kill all life on earth by using their powers once
Exactly you said it perfectly
Sometimes, powerscalers remind me of that Syndrome quote
"And when everyone is super, no one will be."
The fundamental problem with powerscaling is, in my opinion, that powerscalers put *way* more thought into what they do than the writers themselves.
The example of this that comes to mind is when Seth the Programmer used a statement from Tetsuya Nomura about that one scene in Kingdom Hearts III where Sora changed the timeline to undo the Guardians' defeat several minutes prior to argue that Sora was complex multiversal.
Seth's logic made sense, but I highly doubt that Tetsuya Nomura was thinking about the complex math involved in recreating the multiverse from scratch.
thats not a problem tbh, of course the author puts less thoughts in the nuances than the fans. Powerscaling is just niche fan bikkering.
@@niloyabid2851 When I call it "the fundamental problem" I'm talking about why powerscaling is stupid and a waste of time. I'm not saying it's a problem with the way the stories are written.
@@HunterStiles651 i mean, when you think about it, most fiction is a waste of time devoid of any direction, id say it then comes down to how you want to waste your time thinking about a fiction, the charas, the plot, themes, or the powerlevels.
@@HunterStiles651 If you enjoy it, it's not a waste of time. I've spent about 30 years *deep* into powerscaling, to the point of spending hours on it nearly every day. Other than sleeping, I don't think there's *anything* I've spent more time on. I would not consider a single *second* of that time wasted, because I enjoyed all of it.
@@RedLordOfAlagadda You do you man. Just make sure you’re keeping up with other hobbies.
As someone who loves powerscaling for fun I feel the need to say that there are like two types of powerscaling. There’s what I like to call internal powerscaling which is scaling with in a self-contained story and then there’s external powerscaling which is powerscaling between fictional stories. Internal powerscaling is the important one that actually matters as it keeps a story consistent. I’m sure we’ve all been there watched the Flash outrun a bolt of lightning, stop a black hole, etc… and then he gets hit by a dude with a gun for no reason. That’s an example of when someone doesn’t use internal powerscaling it’s when a story doesn’t bother to follow its own internal logic. It’s essentially that A>B>C so A>C but sometimes a story will be weird and have C>A despite it making no sense. That is why I actually care about specifically internal powerscaling. It’s a way for authors and their audience to know stakes and is also the main reason the warf effect occurs. If the strongest guy in the group gets taken out then basic logic and internal powerscaling says that this new threat is also stronger than the other main characters meaning we need to take them seriously and be worried. Also it’s why you aren’t going to see like Krillin beat Beerus and if you did the entire fan base would have a meltdown because that wouldn’t make sense.
It can be fun to talk about how strong a character would be Irl but some people take it too seriously. Power scaling is still fun and shouldn't be treated like the damn plague.
Thank you someone go gets it!!
❤
Completely agree
Agree. Same with shipping.
@@pantheman2842😐
Powerscalers are also often overlooking feats like "faster than light". Not only do they sometimes apply that label because a character dodged a lightbeam looking attack (which visibly traveled slower than a bullet). But completely ignore the implications of it, while citing the laws of physics pften to make their point A.) Characters look at their opponents movements while if they travel faster than light, light reaches their retinas _slower_ than the attack, and even as an outside observer you'd only have 2 states reaching you. B.) The magnitude of a sonic boom created by breaking the sound barrier to that magnitude would be devastating, that's nothing to do with attack potency, that's just matter moving through a gas at a high speed. C.) At such speeds you'd be reaching time dilation in ridiculous ways.
If you actually moved as fast as light, you would cross the entire universe and you will perceive time as frozen.
@@metachiralitysurprisingly, light’s slower than you’re thinking. It takes 8 minutes for sunlight to reach earth. That’s why lightyears are a thing, because light takes a lot of time to cross certain distances.
@@live_and_lol that's from the frame of reference of an object that isn't moving at c. lorentz boosting to the frame of reference of a photon would length contract the entire universe into a single plane, for which it would take 0 seconds to cross.
Power scaling is pretty fun tbh. Shame you had to face the bad aspects of it
Power scaling is only fun when used to scale two characters from the same story that never interacted and try to figure out who would come out on top based on their opponents and if they had any similar opponents to compare their performance with. Otherwise it's not useful at all.
@@ether2275gaming is not useful at all yet we still do it
Sometimes we do things because they're fun
There doesn't need to be deeper meaning to it
@@Sappysappster Yes, I don't deny that, read my previous comment again and you'll see how I said that powerscaling can be fun. But overall there comes a point where it gets out of hand and too ridiculous.
There comes a point where it turns into a dick measuring contest between the participants, trying to prove that their favorite character can totally beat the other's favorite by any means necessary, even by defying all logic and pre established lore.
Like, I've had people try and prove to me that Spiderman is somehow stronger than Invincible (from the Invincible series) which makes absolutely no sense. But using very shitty scaling and the logic behind attack potency they somehow make a silly argument that this is the case.
@Sappysappster
I wouldn’t compare it to playing video games. No one gets into long winded debates scales fictional characters to each other for fun.
They do it to “win” an argument. It’s like a sad dick measuring contest.
Powerscaling is fun when people aren't taking it too seriously, unfortunately this is quite rare on the internet
Power scalers explaining how Caseoh is capable of destroying planet Earth in mere seconds even by accident:
Half of those characters would be just energy eating crabs
This is part of the reason that I like One Punch Man, people in that universe aren’t the most powerful characters in fiction or anything but when their attacks are powerful we actually get to see the damage it can do😂
Powerscaling in the OPM universe essentially boils down to: "survived x amount of punches from saitama"
@@ADcommenter I always find it weird how OPM fans are also avid power scalers. Like it really doesn't fit the narrative of the story.
@@anlexaify more like power scalers are attracted to OPM
@@Tengentoppagurren Nah it's more like Low-iQ making claims attracts powerscalers. OpM fans are abundant in those.
@@ADcommenter even that is flimsy with how much Seriousness Saitama put in his punch
It's something that made Dead Mount Death Play feel novel. While characters in that series perform legitimately impressive feats, there's still a level of like "yeah, a human could achieve this", generally speaking. Then you encounter throughout the story these legitimately magical characters and realize like, they CAN meaningfully effect the structure of a building and it puts them on a level significantly higher than the prior "Tall dude with long sword who's good at fighting" without really changing the scope of the story.
i remember learning that kratos vs asura (soon to be a death battle!) was a popular fight and thinking it was a huge mismatch, because asura literally punches a planet-sized man so hard he explodes, only to be told kratos was actually able to destroy the multiverse so he wins easily, despite the fact that in god of war 2018 he visibly struggles to move a large rock
this isn't a shortcoming or power scaling, all they do is follow the logic of the story, if it doesn't make sense it's because the story isn't logically consistant.
you can't both catch bullets and be way slower than bullets at the same time. it is normal to not like logical inconsistencies in fiction.
and that's the best kind of case when it's just inconsistent with real values of bullet speed worst case scenario they have slow bullets.
but sometimes character A is faster than character B even though B is faster than C who is faster than A.
and that's just bad writing.
ok but its usually way worse. like saying a character is light speed or something because they dodge lasers but then they take several episodes to go from one place to another.
or saying that a character is infinitely fast because it was mentioned in a throw away statement that a place was 'beyond time'(whatever tf that means) and it was sort of implied that they traveled that place if you squint at it kinda.
One thing is to have some inconsistencies, and another to make things up contradicting mostly everything, not only the story itself. And yes you can stop bullets if you are strong enough and if you have good reaction or are well positioned. As for the lasers, what bothers me is them trying to argue that every lasers goes at the speed of light, even if they are way diferent to our own, or even have no problem to say they are even faster. Having beams that go slower than the speed of light in fiction while being completly diferent to the actual thing is a foreing idea to them, yet having it be way faster is something they do not have a problem with. Thats because there is not actual logic, just excuses to wank them as much as posible. A good example of this is One Piece when characters like Kizaru exist and they clearly do not move faster than him. Same with Polnareff and the hanged man
You missed the point entirely.
@@danieltodorov7753 No, I focused on the ideas I am interested in rather than the whole theme of the video.
@@Dario-uj6qo maybe I haven't been exposed to the worst of it, but usually when I see that kind of wank it's when the character is compared to another one who is stronger, and it's more to make the point that there are no interpretation where the weaker character wins not that this interpretation is the most logical one.
10:11 Gege himself said that having Maki catch a bullet was too excessive and only did it because it looked cool
Ki control is just the fans terminology. The concept of ki control was actually explained in series. Vegeta talks about it during the Cell saga. I'm sure someone else has probably explained this in the comments though.
AP =/= DC in any fiction even if we disregard ki control.
This guy was trying to make clarity In his video but this is obviously rage bait.
Ap=/=DC
Speed =/= ap
Durability =/=ap
Yet he acts like he doesn't know this just to shit on ap as a concept
I mean Ki control really isn't a fan made thing, the whole Beerus vs Goku fight universe destroying feat was literally about Goku not being able to control his output.
One thing I heavily agree with is on Doom Slayer and Kratos where they're scaled more on concepts rather then what they actually do during fights, the one I find funniest is when people make a character infinite speed cause they moved in a space without time.
One thing I really loved during the Broly movie is when they shattered dimensions actually showing the power behind their punches, as you said Dragon Ball characters really need to learn how to breathe in space so they can throw hands through planets, like when Beerus fought his brother.
Loved the video, I'll keep enjoying powers scaling though cause I have a simple brain and seeing big number against big number makes my monkey brain happy.
To be fair on the "timeless" thing, it's quite annoying when scalers go "oh no, it's undefined" when the very definition is that it's zero.
The thing is, the lore of doom explains why the doomsayers uses guns. (Spoiler: it's for fun, not because canonically needs them)
Dude you're called midnight rants and this video wasnt even filmed during midnight or atleast a dark room, come on...
never watch Wendigoon, he's not even a real cryptid
@@MidnightRants Crazy, i thought he was..
@@MidnightRants But is he a goon(er)?
@@MidnightRants Counterpoint: you don't know that.
i feel like powerscalers need to learn the difference between energy, force, and pressure before they start yapping about how gokus kamehameha doesnt blow up planets everytime it is used
Powerscalling is a hobby, attack the concept all you wanr but in the end of the day its just a subchapter of the internet doing what they think is fun, sure some vs debaters get pissy but theyre only common when you actively look for them. I genuinely dont agree with the notion of "powerscallers are all jobless losers" Becauss that is attacking people for what they find fun. Its all just for fun, we like seeing how strong a fictional character is with real math. Sure its not physically possible but its fiction, its all up to interpretation
The most correct comment
So true, but i just dislike how often versus debating & powerscaling are lumped together as the same thing when people complain about the community around it.
Versus debates can get toxic fast, like "can he beat goku?/nobody beats goku"
Most of the time those videos are complaining about versus debaters getting pissy, but they just lump powerscalers as the same cause they dont see a difference.
So is shipping
@@Uwhwvwgwh Yes, power scaling is shipping for men. We know this. There's nothing wrong with liking either (to an extent, once you start shipping minors with adults, then you have problems)
Is a cringe hobby too
You’ve got a subscriber from this 😆Your sense of humor is top tier
Authors care about telling a good story. Nobody cares about powerscaling except powerscalers.
The whole point of superhero comics is for a hero to overcome a villain that is usually superior to them in some way.
Case in point, if you powerscaled John Constantine against the things he goes up against, he loses every time, but due to wit and trickery, he finds a way to come out on top.
I personally don't see the appeal of reducing characters to D&D stat sheets.
except superman ..... somehow he is GOD and outscales every universe.
Superman is widely biased
Like they just do favoritism for him and dumb and numb other heroes who are supposed to be similar i.e Shazam and martial man hunter...
That's why I like invincible
It's power scaling is much more realistic than any version of DC animation or not
They scale very well
Take for instance the stupid fight against doomsday and Justin league members
Superman fought like he's the only superhero on dooms level while there's literally mm and we who can go on toe to toe
Especially mm everytime he just gets burned alive while Shazam who is a Kryptonian level character just gets knwcked around like a cat lol
@@caliginousmoira8565
@@caliginousmoira8565 Agreed. He really sets the diamond standard of being unfathomably op.
powerscaling still matters you don't want the character to progress to fast especially in a action comic where the fight matter.
@@jameslight4391 Yes powerSCALING matters, powershitting is the issue here.
Me being low planetary level makes perfect sense. I literally burned the earth, easily. Because I am basically an giant space menace. And my whole thing is being an pyro maniacal world destroyer. This is powerscaling.
Superman cannot even be called an superhero anymore because now he has literal infinite and now boundless feats more like an god. This bullshit is powershitting.
"If everything is made up, then I get to make it up"
-Sun Zu
I enjoy a powerscaling vid from time to time but they definitely lose me when I hear “this character based on this one scene can obliterate the multiverse 10 trillion times over”
Excuse but what powerscaling are you watching to hear that?
@ Im mostly exaggerating of course.
The amount of times I heard that a character is massive faster then light because of one or two scenes was very annoying
There is a I believe 2.5 hour OP powerscalinf video that "proves" that Gear 5 Luffy is planetary, but the entire scaling is based on one panel, where buggy gets hit by the buggy bomb. Yes, 2.5 HOURS of scaling all based on 1 PANEL. The guy tries to prove his scaling when he reaches the Fishman Island arc by comparing a feat to an earlier feat which was still calculated off that 1 panel, literally proving nothing.
8:25 The author’s response and his supporters response is hilarious!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I feel like powerscaling is important to have internally though. If you make a character sit specifically on some sort of pecking order and have someone above them lose a fight to the weaker character then you have to give a reason why the fight played out that way or you throw the audience’s suspension of disbelief
My logic has always just been “the fight is imaginary and in my head, screw scaling, the winner is who I want it to be”
can people stop making powercalers up to be a bunch of cringy cry babies, sure some of us are like that, but that could be say for any internet community, we are just people that are having fun our own ways. but fun video though
"SOME of us are like that" That is a lowball, to say the least.
Agree, I genuinely don’t even care from a power scaling perspective, i honestly only care from a film critic perspective.
I love the grand spectacle of strong characters fights being so destructive, it makes the fights so climatic and other worldly.
That’s genuinely the only reason I remember man of steel at all, because I Superman and Zod launching each other through skyscrapers, with the mere shockwaves of their attacks pulverizing buildings like there made of sand, looks so awesome to me.
Characters being strong is cool, inconsistency doesn't matter as long as the story is fun. I've never actually heard about the attack potency thing, it sounds dumb lol, but nonetheless, big numbers are fun so let power scalers do what they want, it doesn't really have any affect on the story considering that as you mentioned most writers don't give a shit about power scaling.
It makes those people less able to appreciate writing when all they care about is power and not the many other aspects of what makes stories resonate with us. It's not a complete tragedy, but it is a bad thing.
@@danieltodorov7753 People should just be able to enjoy whatever aspect of a story they want. I definitely prefer when a series is well written over the characters being strong, for example my 3 favourite battle shounen anime/manga are Yu Yu Hakusho, HxH and Rurouni Kenshin but sometimes dumb power levels are just cool to see. Putting that aside, what are power scalers really doing that's so harmful to anyone but themselves and their own free time? As mentioned they certainly have no effect over the author's and as long as you don't let them bother you they have no sway over anything else.
@@danieltodorov7753that’s a matter of opinion and one you don’t have the right to push onto others
@@joshuafrazier3904 an opinion they don't have a right to push onto others?
they just shared an opinion online that nobody is even obligated to read, nobody got forced to except or believe anything lol. Someone replied to their comment and they replied back, so it wasn’t even unwarranted for them to say something back.
what exactly do you mean by push onto others? Normally that implies force doesn’t it.
@@dylanbarrett508They literally say that powerscalers can't enjoy stories because they'e too focused on powerscaling. Are you illiterate or just a troll?
I'm not a power scaler but the "Ki Control" stuff is real, the ki blasts that they do can be tiny or big as seen in the games and the actual show itself. The Kamehameha is also made up of Ki and the characters can bend it using their "Ki Control". I've never stepped foot inside the dragon ball community and I've heard of "Ki Control" before.
Finally someone touched on what I've been thinking the whole time!
This makes me appreciate DCEU fight scenes even more, Superman punching Zod and vice versa was creating shock waves over and over and their fight destroyed majority of Metropolis like its made of cardboards
The gun thing doesn't really make sense at least for example a character like Dante who very obviously doesn't have normal weapons
Who made his weapons ?
@danieltodorov7753 I wasn't sure but I just looked into it and apparently it's a special gunsmith named Nell from the novels who specifically made the guns for him so he can infuse his demonic energy in them so yeah their definently not normal guns.
@@projectmessiahlook those guns are made to kill demons only that's it. 😅
@@abhijeetgolder7535 I don't know if you read it or not but I looked into it and explained in my reply to the other dude
@@abhijeetgolder7535And the demons are really strong lmao. Actually read up on the lore before commenting.
man took a 30 minute dump on the entire power scaling community .... absolutely goated
you echoed sentiments I felt for a long time and I'm glad someone finally said it
What I hate is when they tell but don't show. This is especially relevant in Dragon Ball... They're talking about how "Those two clashing is literally shaking/destroying the entire universe!" But they don't even hurt the planet they're fighting on... Hell, not even a city, not even a street. Like those statement are there just to make power scalers hard or something.
This is honestly one of the better deconstructions of power scaling I have seen so far. I don't particularly hate power scaling but I always found the concept of attack potency to be flawed. Good to see someone else who agrees on this. Very nice and detailed video.
There’s no such this as bad power scaling. The issue is bad writing. You don’t need to be a power scaler to understand a story’s inconsistencies in power levels is the WRITER’S fault. Power scalers simply apply logic to what’s shown on screen. Idk what’s so hard to understand about that.
I mean, I have seen bad powerscaling before. Characters that are clearly outerversal being labeled as hyperversal. Like Luke Lerdwichigul in the SMG4 canon. The Great Beyond is clearly an outerverse (or higher in the long system) and Luke can erase the entire SMG4 cosmology by deleting his channel but they scaled him at hyperversal because they refuse to acknowledge that the Great Beyond is an outerverse. So, power scalers can do a bad job. VSBW usually does a good job but many characters are missing and the system they use is an inherently flawed system. It's why I made the long system in the first place.
My favorite moments in dragon ball are when characters who are capable of destroying the planet force the hero’s into a situation where they either stop this attack or the entire planet will be gone. Or when powerful characters have to willingly down themselves so that they don’t kill everyone around them by punching the bad guy.
The only problem i have with powers scalers is that they think they have a PHD in theoretical physics, they keep trying to talk about black holes and some complex summarized topic like idk newtonian spaces it scales to this and that, this character is multi dimensional when the best of their knowledge is F=ma and they keep talking so arrogantly like they are the next Einstein
So the whole point of power scaling is just to have fun seeing whether one character could beat another character from different verses so we use actual metrics to determine that it’s the best way we can figure out how strong a character is also just because a character can destroy a universe with its punch doesn’t actually mean I can do that. It just means the punch it generated has the same energy yield asdestroying a universe would.
It might be worse when such a high attack potency only applies to a specific weapon or power, nothing else in a character's arsenal, but powerscalers just slap that AP onto EVERYTHING the character has (and/or even ignore the rule of Kryptonites). Like, there's a reason certain moves in, say, video games have differing attack power values, and even why some have type weaknesses.
Most power scalers will just say the max power a characters has that they can use under normal circumstances and just go if they land blank attack they can win. Not that every punch is equal to their strongest attack
I always remember that first appearance: Vegeta charging his ki blast made the earth rumble and lightning appear… FIRST APPEARANCE!!! By Buu's arc, he should punch a wall and destroy the Milky Way.
roshi could destroy the moon in og dragon ball and yet its considered impressive that freeza can destroy the planet
for dragon ball i've always seen it as them channeling the 'energy/power' into their target. when they use blasts they should destroy everything especially when it gets knocked away.
He gain more control
@@elcalabozodelandroide2 control de q? si el fenomeno no depende Vegeta, depende le la cantidad de energia q acumula, se produce es por acumular mucha energia muy rapido en un lugar muy pequeño... ahora reuna 1000 mas energia y mas rapido y a la atmosfera ni la tierra no le pasa nada.... lol
@@zaidalvi-r2l The amount of power to destroy the earth compared to the if around 1,800 times so there's a big difference
This is funny, and I love when a series gives characters this power and actually uses it properly, my favorite example of this, is Asuras wrath, bro casually punches a demi god larger than the planet into pieces when bro was like, the size of a speck of dust compared to the giant demi god
This is why I love one punch man, very straight to the point and you get the visuals for what the character can actually do. You don't have to guess and make feats up out of thin air
Casual reminder that Dante has a hat that summons meteors and you think his guns are... regular pistols
To be fair, the meteors are made of blood orbs, so they are probably just summoned from a small distance around him.
What makes meteor deadly is their speed and their even with their speed they're city lvl in damage capacity.
Dawg the meteors aren’t even that big
@@rancorious7785Oh they big I tell you, not as big as your mom though.
In fiction, I don't think that having the power to destroy a planet is necessarily conducive to being able to actually destroy a planet due to the range and scale of certain attacks. For example if you have a laser that can cut through anything, except it has a 1 mm width and a reach of 10 m. This laser can cut through x character that survived a planet busting attack, therefore this Lazer has more energy than the planet busting attack. That said, this laser cannot destroy the planet even though it theoretically has the energy to do so because the scale of the attack won't allow it and this fictional universe ignores all laws of thermodynamics. With that in mind, the energy of an attack is not an accurate measure of its effectiveness. A bullet has far more force than a sword, yet kevlar can block bullets but can be cut with a sword.
As a former Dragon Ball fanfiction role player (I will not explain what that is), I found the best way to communicate the scale and power of a feat is to apply the mathematical physical consequences. You don't need the math to be accurate, you just need the environment to react accordingly. You need to apply the physics. This in turn allows you to scale down things to a reasonable level while still communicating the strength of a character. You don't need universe busting feats, just apply real physics to building or mountain level feats and it'll feel plenty powerful.
One of my favorite things was realizing that planets like Earth aren't really solid. Sure they have a cool, solid crust, but that crust is super thin and is more like a micron layer of ice on a vast ocean of water. If a small earth mass object hit the surface an exploded, it would splash. The earth would ripple and wobble and turn into this molten bubble. That'd be cool to look at, but what's the point? Take that consideration for the physics and scale it down for some really effective superhuman street level conflicts.
But that's the point, my friend. It's not that powerscalers are wrong-because they’re not. Catching a bullet is a feat that a speedster moving at Mach 3 couldn't replicate.
The issue lies with the writers, who are often inconsistent and struggle to maintain internal logic and consistency.
Some examples may seem silly to you, but that’s likely because you’re not focused on the math involved in those situations. But then, you get cases like Black Panther defeating the Silver Surfer with a headlock or Batman dodging an Omega Beam, and suddenly, the frustration of powerscalers becomes understandable.
This is a problem of careless writing; powerscalers just highlight the flaws.
And honestly, most powerscalers don’t really take it that seriously-it’s more of a fun hobby. They know the author might not be great with math, but they still enjoy the story.
Powerscaling logic is usually solid, and people rarely debunk it. However, since the conclusions sometimes clash with the world the writer intended, it can lead to some humorous critiques.
Batman dodging the omega beams is not an issue because it is a story and in stories the hero (usually) wins. The person who wins the fight is whoever the author wants to win either because of the plot, drama, themes, etc. There is no amount of fav character powerscaling wanking that can change that.
@@sam7559 Disagree hard on that. An author should make the universe internally consistent if it isn't a gag (this is the exception, jokes don't need to make sense in a conventional way). Wouldn't people be mad if Batman just woke one day and won in a race against a serious Flash? Maybe not. But many would if the logic used is just bad, like Batman just straight up being faster because he is fucking Batman.
Batman dodging an omega beam is cool until you think how the fuck the man with human level strength can just out maneuver something that can catch much faster characters like Superman. Do you believe that Batman can dodge things that are probably lightspeed (because they actually hit speedsters with ease, with the exception of the Flash) ? Do you think a human can do it even if they predict exactly what is happening? It's hype that batman dodged that! I'm not gonna lie about that! But! It also makes you think about how the fuck it happens and if the only logic is that the writter wanted it to happen... Then it just breaks immersion and, consequently, the stakes in the story.
If the writter doesn't have to care about the internal consistency of the universe they are working on, then the reader is left with an empty feeling that nothing matters, because the stakes never existed. The result was predermined from the very beggining and the journey to it is just something that doesn't matter at all.
@thalesgarcia6955 "The result was predermined from the very beginning" Yes, they always having been. Fiction writers aren't looking into a special window and then creating a documentary on what they see. Goku, Superman, Batman, they always win because the writer choose for them to win, not because they're writer did a complex math equation and determined that Freiza's punches can only blow up planets that are 95.68% percent of the size Goku can blow up.
@@sam7559 Yes, but it the job of the writter to hide that fact. The writter needs to create tension and just being obvious that there is no other reason for something to happen other than "it was written so" kills it.
Also, just to be clear, I'm not speaking of the author following equations and all that. I'm just talking about things that pass an extreme. Like a character that is just peak real life martial artist fighting hand to hand with creatures that are hypersonic and somehow winning (generic example, not talking about batman here).
Also, I don't believe in powerscaling characters from different stories. That is just for fun, but only that. Different universes, different rules and incompatible narrative makes for a poor combination in finding any logic in a discussion. There is no reason to take this seriously.
Internal universe consistency is the thing that matters to me not because of how much physics, math or whatever is broken, but because the writter previously convinced me of something to just say otherwise when its convenient. Batman and the omega beam is the perfect example, because the writter made me believe that batman is extremely weaker and slower than the rest of the justice league. The omega beam was convincing in it being undodgeable (except if your title is Flash). Then, somehow, the writter wants me to believe batman can dodge it just because he can predict it? I just can't and it kills the tension because from now on, the information the writter gives can be just negated on a whim.
@@sam7559 An author has absolute power, but this doesn't mean they should use it recklessly. If an author makes a character do something beyond their established capabilities without providing an explanation, it breaks the illusion of stakes. Part of the fun in an action story is watching how a character will succeed or fail against a challenge. The story becomes boring if the audience realizes the author is lazy and solves problems by ignoring the rules of their own work.
Restrictions, like 'Batman is just a human,' are boundaries for the writer and promises to the reader. These promises ensure the author won't resolve conflicts in arbitrary ways, making the story more engaging. They challenge the writer to find creative solutions within the framework they've established.
Main issue is that the powerscaling is inconsistent asf in comics, they can have thanos come in but i feel no fear for any character cause the bad writers can make some BS as to how captain America beat thanos with his bare hands while barely being able to life a truck. It makes it less fun cause the inconveniences will keep changing the strength levels
(if i make too big of a comment RUclips takes it down) examples are how superman is being slightly overwhelmed by batman without kryptonite meanwhile superman takes fown beings that are conically outerversal
Thank-you! I've been thinking about this very thing...for YEARS!!! From God of War to Supernatural, this concept has made power creep rise far too rapidly, while having useless characters still have a chance against them. "One human soul has the power of a hundred supernovas!" "In my true form, I'm as big as the Sears Tower." "I just got my ass kicked by Bozo the clown..."
I agree with basically everything you say in this video, except that you can't have a form of "attack potency". One example I had in a story idea was one where the characters were actually capable of destroying planets, but they were all able to absorbe that level of energy to get them to be damaged. But this gives the factor that if any of these characters are fighting each other, they need to be very careful not to miss a single strike or they are killing everyone on the planet.
So there can be an explanation for something like that, but most of the explanations I've heard are rediculous.
I'd like to mention to people that powerful characters don't necessarily have exetreme destructive capability. With high creation output.
And the end of the day, we're the powerscalers and not the makers.
I love when power scalers say oh they dodged a laser so they are light speed
I just remember the fight between Hulk and Thor in the first Avengers. They tore through walls, jets, and Hulk crunched against the ground just *trying* to lift Mjolnir, only for Thor to rock up and prove how the Hulk wasn’t worthy, and slammed him with the hammer! That was a showcase of might, and it was in PHASE 1!!!
Ki control is honestly such an amazing concept without any holes whatsoever! Good thing the mindless, feral Cell Max was polite enough not to blow up the planet during his rampage at full power, am I right? 🙃
12:31 to point out; ki control is a thing, otherwise you wouldn't have people who could hide their true power/ strength. As it was noted by Vegeta that they can hide their power level. Even with slipping under the radar. (not counting Androids)
Also the only writer that has appealed to/ focused heavily on power scaling is the writer for Hunter X Hunter from what I've seen with his complex power system.
The doomslayer example made me burst my gut from laughter. Great vid
For me it was the ant foght methaphor. The feeling's pretty accurate.
5:25 I was just watching a Krillin vs vid where they said the same thing. Even though Krillin has never slightly been shown to be able to do it in the show.
ok but why, why would they show krillin doing that in a show, they already showed piccolo blow up a moon with a casual ki blast a million sagas ago and krillin's much stronger than that in-universe. Thats how fiction works, plot over perfect feat consistency.
Because he can? I mean he is galaxy level already but why would he even try? He is a human he doesn't want to blast the solar system in under a minute and the show doesn't wanna do that?
@@LJCG777Where was that “galaxy destroying power” when he was in the Tournament of Power? 💀
As someone who likes to power scale I completely agree. Power scalers will completely ignore all logic and context and purely look at stats at their peak. They'd take two characters, one that can throw a punch so fast it can create a bubble as hot as the sun, and another characters who with their strongest punch against a boxing bag, broke their hand and so much as put a hole in the bag; then clearly character one is stronger right...no bc I left out the context that character two is a full grown man and character one is a mantis shrimp...
Haven’t watch the video but I feel like the reason why some character don’t feel like they match their strength is because it would simply make many fights way too over the top and because it’s kinda restrictive to write problems for them.
For most people its just a hobby in all honesty. Just fun to think about hypotheticals
ok this is very well made, you deserve more subs.
Never saw this dude more white in my life but now I'll watch every single video he drops for the next decade 100%. Dude could've speak english but instead he choose speak FACTS.
This is poorly made. This man clearly doesn't understand much about what he's complaining about.
@OnlyLiarGameFan
Yes we all think that saying that your favorite fictional character is 'super duper mega ultra versal' and 52475 dimensional makes you very cool.
@zaidalvi-r2l I'd disagree.
@@OnlyLiarGameFan
No no no. We all think you're very cool
The author of jjk did actually debunk the mach 3 later and to be fair people will get mad it's like you watch the flash going light speed or something like that then a random guy with a gun take him down just for the sake of plot sometimes
The author have the right to do what they want but sometimes they do some weird stuff like goku blowing up planets then he can't lift 40 tons lol
I agree by the way, your head it's the literally most fun thing i found here in my day (non offense intended) it's like the most funny charácter i could find into a future-toon series full of parody characters, it's beutiful
Great video, but I have some thoughts. First, I really like this discussion because I have met plenty of "power scalers" who completely misunderstand concepts in power scaling and these same people will confidently make crazy statements they have no ability to defend.
I engage in power scaling as a critical thinking activity, as sometimes, an authors intent gets lost. By figuring out what the potential of a characters feats are it gives a better reference for how far a character has come or how far they still need to go to get to where the author has set their destination.
I have found that when someone likes a character they can end up manipulating feats or intentionally misunderstand a narrative moment to favor their interpretation of a character. And while these bad actors exist in the community I found it disheartening to see the video seemed to frame the entire community as petulant or miserable.
Now, I wanted to address the idea of attack potency as I always saw it much like one would hold an egg firmly without crushing it or maintaining footing while throwing a punch. These are actions in discipline or control, something core to all kinds of training and I found this to explain why the idea of attack potency exists in almost all discussions even across fictional worlds. While I agree that it is silly for anyone to represent attack potency as real in relation to physics, the calculations some will do to show attack potency are abstractions based off of observations from the fiction using real world energy information.
I believe this is where the largest misunderstandings between the author and the community come from as an author may have simply meant to show a "one off" with character doing something flashy but now some people are treating this as a new benchmark.
Again, the key here is critical thinking and if this is an outlier the larger community will likely dismiss these claims until more is shown by the author to support this with consistency. Also an author may never engage with the community or even attempt to keep things consistent, nor do they have to. This is the reason I enjoy powerscaling, it keeps people engaged and thinking about the material. In the end, you may end up coming to your own conclusions because there is likely no definite answer or you may just agree with the last person who made a good point in a video essay. Thank you for your time.
Ya, honestly, (almost) any supernatural abilities is a added bonus in real life.
Cannon does matter.I'm annoyed about the idea that you actually want every fight in Dragonball to be cataclysmic. It's a martial arts gag series, do i think most of the fighters in the series can destroy galaxies easily? yes but i love the story as well and the humor just as much as the power of the characters but their power wouldn't mean anything to anyone if it weren't for the story of how they got there at least we have some explanation other than they felt like it.
Dragonball had more focus on the gag while dragonballZ had more focus on the fights
@supermaximglitchy1 and the gags were facilitated by the story he was tell he was making it up but he was following journey to the west while loosely he still made many references to the original story and using the story of son wu Kong to develop his story
I do disagree with the “kid control” point, not because it isn’t accurate to the story, but because it wasn’t the community that made it, it was Toriyama. It’s mentioned several times throughout the story. For example, most recently, broly is chastised for not having good enough control over his power.
That and dragon ball has several points where they actually show the power of characters full on.
It isn’t realistic at all, but it is given by the writer.
The reason they don’t destroy these things is because it doesn’t make sense for them to destroy these things they’re supposed to be heroes and then the case of Dragon Ball specifically, they literally went through the trouble of explaining it in battle of gods
The villains must be polite to not destroy the planet too
@supermaximglitchy1 yeah? It makes sense for most of the dragon ball villains. Most of them would die if they were on an exploding planet, frieza was scared to use his own power to accidentally destroy the planet and kill himself which is why it didn't blow up immediately, cell wanted to actually fight the people and buu really did destroy the planet
My god, I’m so glad someone is saying this. People really need to stop with this logic born from DBZ power scaling.
Unless the threat a character is facing can not be solved using force, or the story takes place on a galactic scale (meaning the story is about traveling through space). Then the story should end after the characters reach planet buster level’s of power.
Stories in general are at their best when they stay at street level’s of power.
Or even more accurately... "Stories are at their best when they stay consistent." and that means both story and lore-wise as well as visually.
@@ether2275 you are technically correct. But I would say the most important thing is that characters are not overpowered for the story the writer wishes to tell.
For example, Dragonball Z, or super would not be as popular if it was consistent with its power scaling. If it was the story would quickly become stale and boring.
People want stories that are both interesting and consistent.
"STOP HAVING FUN"-wannabe writers on the internet.
When you bring anime and cartoons like regular show into it, powerscaling Marvel just seems kinda like saying which dog could beat which in dogfighting.
What the writer probably meant is that base Hulk cannot destroy a planet without a weapon or machine which is true. He can't and VSBW acknowledges this. However, Grey Hulk can destroy a planet. The problem is that when people think of Hulk, they think of Green Hulk.
Earth's just that durable, it's actually a feat for Earth
Powerscaling in general isnt bad. In fact alot of people who claim they hate powerscalers, are indeed themselves powersclaers. All powerscaling is is determining what characters are capable of based on feats theyve preformed before. Its as simple as Character A has only shown to be able to lift 500 lbs. Character B has shown to be able to lift 1,000 lbs. Based on that information Character B is stronger than charcacter A. At the end of the day it is ultimately on the writer to be aware of the characters feats and show what they're capable of and explaoning why planet busters dont detsroy the planet with their fights. The fans can only take the information the writer and the story gives.
Attack Potency doesn't explain it but there is something that can. What I am about to say is wild and could change science forever. It's a concept that most people don't understand. But I have to say it. The characters are pulling their punches. They aren't using their full strength, purely because of the destruction it would cause. They only use it when it is necessary to beat the character, in which case, the character probably has durability strong enough to absorb most of the damage.
I feel like a part of the power scaling problem is the way its put. So a bullet can kill a god by piercing bcs it works like that but if u fire the same bullet into a planet its just a bullet in the ground. As for energy blasts I agree
3:38 there’s a this guy on tiktok who keeps scaling tobey maguire spider-man to beat people like hancock, superman, thor..etc & it’s so annoying because you know “realistically” if they fought peter would lose no hesitation.
it mainly comes down to narrative convenience. Because let's be honest, if the universe split in half every time the Hulk punched Abomination the story would kind of be counter intuitive to him saving people. That's not an excuse for the writers oversight but it's why that happens. Attack potency was created as head canon for the debate community to explain away this issue and allow the discussions to even happen in the first place. If you wanna win in a lot of cases, when they bring up a character's power and use terms from a wiki like VSBW for example just say "that's not official to the comics, I don't except it" and that's done. I stopped doing that kind of thing because something about this chronic online arguing makes people very toxic and even gets into real world implications, like doxing for example. The only debates I engage in are real world things, such as theology or sports, and occasionally politics. In those spaces you can't use "outerversal" or any other made up term to win. You actually have to actually debate for real and that's where I get the enjoyment out of it, the actual discussions not the "speed blitz bfr narrative transcendence, concede you rat" nonsense.
I think there was only one time DBZ where the level of Goku or anyone else's power really sets in and its the Cell Tournament. First was the scene when Goku charged up a Kamehamaha and everyone was so afraid that if he fired it towards earth from the sky it would have destroyed the planet and the next time was when Cell bitched out and tried to blow up everything. outside of that the tournaments in super were held in the space between universes because of the destructive powers of the participates and the arenas were made my angels but that doesn't really show the raw power of the people in dragon ball
How about the time when Zeno earned literal universes?
@coolbeans107 I get what you mean but it still didn't feel like a universe was wiped out. You didn't see the countless amounts of galaxies because erased. It just shows that zeno getting rid of zamasu but if they didn't say the entire universe was wiped you wouldn't have known
@@Renaldo_Grahamwell when super shenron appeared, u cud literally see galaxies in the background as small specks compared to his size lol
the funniest BS i've ever read was a claim that, because someone moved so fast they couldn't be seen, that means they're faster than _the speed of light_ instead of, like, human perception. Genius.
2:30 Dragon ball characters just have the ability to lessen the explosion of their attacks
I disagree in some stuff, the point in planet level destruction is very clear in dbz for example, vegeta came to earth and if goku loses the entire earth goes with him... freeza destroys namek and this drives a good part of the plot of the arc... kid buu destroys the planet when he appears and kills a lot of the main characters, etc...
theres a lot of moments where the character being planet level makes a massive difference in the story... It all started with roshi blowing up the moon to make goku destransform from oozaru form.
Of course, in other stories a lot of times it doesn't make much differences indeed...
I agree if you are power scaling fiction you have to look in the story if it consistent for characters do have the power to create or destroy celestial bodies and cosmic structures because people make up tiers like Hyperversal and Outerversal to put their characters in which make no sense if something like a Omniverse doesn’t exist in the narrative of the author doesn’t know about what is power scaling
Some power scalers make up other things like appeal to reality which make no sense because the most common thing about fiction and reality from a physical perspective is that they both are typically depicted as having three spatial dimensions of length width and height just like our world
Power scaling was always stupid, but it was fun. Now power scaling is what you said is just bullying and to that I blame seth
Writers either need to stop making their characters so strong they can't properly depict that strength, or figure out how to consistently depict that strength within the confines of their stories. "He's holding back" makes sense, but it can only carry you so far.
Have never dealt with this when it comes to power scaling. I just view it as "There is a strategy for everything. And some characters just don't have that strategy."
If you believe death battle, almost every character can move and fight a million times faster than light and destroy the universe thousands of times with a single punch.
Broth: I would, not that my author can animate. . . I would show you something. . . but your power level is through the roof. Also, the audience is itself and many people, but you're right.
I do this as a hobby. The ones that treat it like it's their entire existence is cringe.
I personally don't relate much to what this video is stating, but I get it. Hell, that was my mindset when I tried out fictional vs. debates. But after I just let "fiction is fiction, it's not that deep" I mostly have fun with it and get me into deeper discussions on certain aspects of vs debates. For instance, "if this character is horribly written as well as unliked, do we still roll with how they fit into vs debates?"
Then, depending on who you ask, you just go with which side of logic you go for, and both agree, then just go for it. If not, it's agree to disagree.
Though I do find it hilarious for you to say, "Why hasn't anyone bother acknowledging why these characters can't do these feats that are stated?" Well, almost no one is willing to animate or draw the feats in full more times than not for how much effort it takes. So they show it off a few times and leave it as statements afterward so the audience will know how strong one individual is to another. Also, there's more than one way of defeating a character in a fight rather than just throwing hands and shooting with guns.
I think a good point people ignore in power scaling is the weaker character knows about the cap, Lex luthor knows superman is to strong for him to punch so he has a plan, or will look for some weapon or find a character that can hurt him. In the superman vs Hulk story the plot was Lex Luthor got the two to fight knowing that hulk and superman can hurt each other but he can't hurt either the goal was they fight I hope they both die. On a power scale does lex compare no but the plan might work
One series that i think does powerscalling quite is Toriko, the progression is quite consistent, and they actually show the boom boom cool stuff
Also, I feel like the authors themselves tend to not understand how powerful their characters are, so when we clearly see the character do some planetary level stuff, but the author just doesn't understand the physics needed for it, and then say they're city level or something, it just feels immersion breaking
Like Moro absorbing the power of a planet somehow being a big deal, when planets should be exploding everytime the characters even move.
So it feels kind of annoying to say "you're literally disagreeing with the author" as an argument, cause what's being shown and what's being told is not matching up.
9:30 that was so fucking funny that power scaler claims to use physics to calculate feat but actually don't understand physics at all, like catching a pistol is something Bruce Lee could do yet they somehow mental gymnastics their ass to hyper sonic, and even worse is scene of "teleportation effect" they straight up treat it like actually teleportation when it's just to show the character being fast and vanish
The character caught a bullet, while it was centimeters from her face. Bruce Lee can’t do that…
Bruce Lee could in fact not catch a bullet centimeters from his face while resting last minute, scientifically speaking. It’s pretty funny how a powerscaler that uses physics to calculate feats didn’t understand physics at all.
Your right about the other stuff though
The special pleading/double standard of power scalers is crazy, if we normies try to make sense of fiction using real life logic and physics they will call it "appeal to reality fallacy" (yes they say shit like that) but if they want to know how powerful a feat is OF COURSE THEY USE REAL WORLD LOGIC AND PHYSICS and that's not a fallacy somehow.
@@racuncai it's very dependent on what exactly you are referring to with those terms as many misuse them. Appeal to reality fallacy is just when you assume things in a fictional universe MUST adhere to the real world which is not always the case. "Good" powerscalers will use real world physics to try and calculate different feats but if certain physics or structures of that fictional universe are different then they have to adjust for those facts in some way when making arguments and calculations.
Okay so it boils down to he wants to see more explosions and he doesn't like the excuse of attack potency or key controller just generally have in control over your abilities to not destroy your surroundings as it would definitely make living there not super difficult for the characters that learn these but he did come after some power escalators that use you know attack potency so overall yeah