Whoa, lots of people are actually watching this! I can't keep up with all of the comments, so here's an FAQ ;-) ************************************************************************************************************************* -I'm genuinely happy for anyone who has found a game that they enjoy, keep on having fun! 🙂 -The definition of "casual" in this video is based on the number of Saturdays Per Year (SPY) devoted to a particular hobby. - I started learning Warhammer 40k in 1999 on the same day that I started learning how to paint. I played some of 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, and 9th. -My painting journey has been cumulative and rewarding, my 40k journey keeps getting hard resets every few years. -I've heard that 10th edition is "better," but I haven't tried it. In 2 years we'll see whether or not 11th is even better than 10th. -"Just play an older edition" is fantastic advice! There may be issues with incorporating newer units/ armies, but I'm sure those can be worked around. -My friends are lovely, there is nobody I would rather play against. -My opponents offered to explain anything that I wanted about their armies. I requested the *quick* (low-headache) rundown of their army lists before each of the games. . -One reason why deploying a whole army in 2-3 huge piles behind LOS blocking terrain looks dumb (IMO) is because we all understand that explosions are a thing... regardless of how they are represented in the rules. -Magic Commander is easy to return to after a few years because Sakura Tribe Elder and Llanowar Elves keep doing the same exact things that they've always done :-) The free-for-all design and the existence of board wipes in MTG also help to keep rusty players alive in the game. -DnD is easy to return to for *players*, but obviously requires a ton of prep for DMs. -5th edition DnD (current edition) released the same year as 7th edition Warhammer 40K. -Yes, I have heard of OPR ;-) ruclips.net/video/86sQ6xAqPcI/видео.html
Same here, trying to like 40k for years... but i also love hanging out with friends and painting the awesome models. I really enjoyed OPR though. Unfortunately no community around here.
@GoobertownHobbies I've tried getting in the 40K I went to buy a new codex for tyranids and ended up getting the 9th edition codex from Amazon. So now I have two of the same codex's. One thing that I've found a passion with is the combat patrols and killteam. More simple rules (that change less) and if I want to try a new play style and dip my toes in a different faction I won't break the bank. Also when is tyranids gonna get a new killteam?
I have played a few editions of 40k and fantasy and enjoyed them, BUT I never had time to learn the other armies info. A friend introduced me to Mantic Games' Firefight and Kings of War. Each has fewer books to buy and less "lore" to sift through. I don't have a ton of time so I just want the rules. Also I like Firefight's alternating activation, I move a unit, then you move one.
"The rules change faster than my ability or willingness to learn them." - Absolutely right. That is 40K summed up in one. It makes even the most experienced table top gamer feal like an absolute novice. The barrier to entry is just so high.
@@l200jjkwhy do they do this though? Is it just ultimately a ploy to make you constantly buy more/new models (older ones become obsolete or nerfed), or is it just that GW cannot stop tinkering with the rules for perfectionism sake? Like, I understand that AoS has gone through a few updates because it's a new game and it's now alot more balanced than it was when it first came.out. that's good. But for 40k, how has there not long-since reached a point at where the rules are "perfected" (more or less) and then just set in stone. It's weird tbh
It's absolutely an issue of the current GW business model. Having seen the evolution from the GW of the 90's the difference is shocking. Witnessing the sheer amount of constant new releases gives me anxiety, and that's as someone who doesn't even play 40k!
Brent. I was tracking with the video, but you absolutely killed me when "My army pledged allegiance to the backstreet boys.. and in beast mode the backstreet boys will give them..."
This video was exceptional! I watched it last night, but couldn't comment from my TV. I really want to sit down and do an entire reply episode on this subject or a dissection from another angle. I half want to beg you to join us and do a sequel conversation of sorts. You touched on so many of the topics that 10th edition changed from 9th, while also pointing out the major complaint most people have with the presentation of the rules from GW with gatekeeping your opponents rules behind a paywall and the archaic format of physical rulebooks. The idea that the entire rules of the game evolve over time and the impact it has on different types of players is another whole topic. Even the things I'd call new player/casual player mistakes you showed off in your games are interesting to discuss the way they could possibly be avoided by setting up player expectations correctly and presenting rules to the player differently. (GW actually is doing some of these now, but they would also be interesting to discuss how they're tackling certain issues.)
For what it's worth (as a fan of both channels) I'd love to watch that episode! I tend to fall more on the competitive side of Warhammer and have been playing routinely for a few years now, but it can be really helpful to understand how crappy and overwhelming it is to try and get into playing warhammer, especially in regards to GW's decisions that streamline the game more but might annoy some hardcore players.
Make the collaboration happen please - I can’t wait to see another take from someone who didn’t enjoy the game as much. I started in 9th and have really enjoyed the game. Theres a handful of critiques I have but many of them have worked out over time. I do consider myself a casual 40K player. Of course, it’s always fine to have different preferences
Great and fair assessment. Been a player since '89 and been through every edition (except 6th 'cause I blinked). After 35 years, my 40k philosophy is: people come for the models, stay for the lore, and suffer the rules. My son (now 11) started his journey in the final days of 8th and, after recently playing a few games of Mantic's Armada and Gaslands: Refueled, had the sudden realization: "Dad? 40k's not all that fun." I think he was worried I'd be upset, but I just smiled and said "Welcome to the club." Keep doing what you do, Brent. Love the channel!
Gaslands is a wonderful way to play a few races, especially if the players are all focused on casual mayhem and less on taking the most bleeding edge meta team and making only the most efficient moves. It's a death race! Go crazy for some high-risk, cinematic plays.
As an amateur game designer, Mike's rules are so good it makes me mad! Gaslands is such an excellent rule set. Mike really knocked it out of the park. His Billion Suns is also seriously good and I can't wait for him to release Hobgoblin.
Youre not wrong. Your assessment of the 40k experience is spot on.For a lot of people, theyre stuck in the abusive relationship that is the Games Workshop release cycle. The best games theyve put out are the ones they dont support anymore, so you can actually learn the rules, they wont ever change, and everyone can have fun
Longer edition cycle wont fix fundamental flaws. The game is stuck in the 80s - IGO-UGO Alpha-strike nonsense wrapped in a diaper made of duct-tape and proprietary copy-writable word-salad.
@@Vorpal_Wit Turns not being at the same time is completely wack to me as a Battletech Player. What's the fun when you can just get alpha struck without any response? It's better when two things can absolutely trade, making everything riskier.
8th 9th and 10th aren't tabletop miniature games since thecmajority of your time you are admin for your books, its not fun in the slightest, and considering GW dont know how to write rules or play test 40k, all rules are wrong forcing you to use the app since even the datacards (which were never needed) are wrong before release. 40k 10th is a garbage system. The best way to play 8th 9th or 10th editions of 40k is to scrap secondaries and CPs and actually play warhammer for a change. So glad fantasy has come back as Old World, having so much fun repainting my ogres, then have the tomb king core box to work through ^^
@@eskhaphey2873 Same boat with Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos and Tomb Kings. I tried AoS, I tried 40K 6th edition and I couldn't like either; though I will say AoS is more of a grudge that my favourite game was axed for it which in turn killed my gaming community, so there's a bias I couldn't overcome. If I want 40K, I play 3rd edition, write a list using the Force Organisation Chart, roll a scenario and play.
@@Karloss00 for me, aos is basically aura 40k, where you require characters to make units usable, pre 8th this was never the case, units functioned like units and interacted with the enemy, now you need characters to be the sergeant of a unit (since sergeants are useless) and are required to go through a stratagem to be mildly effective. Aos 4th does look mildly okay, but much more invested with Old World. My 40k will just gather dust until 11th and pray GW learn how to read, otherwise bring on 12th...
Easy solution. Switch to One page rules. Free rules. Much faster gameplay. Use your existing minis. Yes, it has less depth and is not without it's own problems. But overall, we seldom look back.
I think you have helped me realize why I struggle with 40k myself. I love collecting the models, I love painting, But actually playing just doesn't excite me. With the rules always changing, all the special rules, it just frustrates me, which sucks, because I want to enjoy the game.
There rules... aren't erally changing. They are mostly harminious all the way back to 6th still, there's not much different outside of codexes... its gotten more and mroe simpler, which sucks. I want it more complex, most people do.
Your feelings on this are valid. Best part of the 40K hobby is hanging out and chatting about the game with friends. I still talk 40k with friends, but I don't play anymore. I also appreciate your stance on not hiding behind cover. I used to play Daemons and spent 90% of the game getting riddled with bullets as I charged.
I don't understand how people enjoy the game. You spend hundreds of hours making and painting an army only for it to he half obliterated at the end of round 1.
Dude just move over to One Page Rules and you'll have lot's of fun again. WH40K = 1 round can easily take 3 hours. OPR = 1 Entire Match rarely takes 1 hour = Which means you can squeeze in Three full matches before 1 freaking round of 40K is finished. 40K rules are i n s a n e. OPR is like Shinkansen; smooth, fast AF, comfortable and fun (and also 100% free). And since games goes so fast it's no big deal if one looses. We laugh instead. There are guides here on yt and Rddit on how to build and play your armies. Come join us, we are having fun!
Dude just move over to One Page Rules and you'll have lot's of fun again. WH40K = 1 round can easily take 3 hours. OPR = 1 Entire Match rarely takes 1 hour = Which means you can squeeze in Three full matches before 1 freaking round of 40K is finished. 40K rules are i n s a n e. OPR is like Shinkansen; smooth, fast AF, comfortable and fun (and also 100% free). And since games goes so fast it's no big deal if one looses. We laugh instead. There are guides here and Rddt on how to build and play your armies. Come join us, we are having fun!
Dude come over to One Page Rules and you'll have lot's of fun again. WH40K = 1 round can easily take 3 hours. OPR = 1 Entire Match rarely takes 1 hour = Which means you can squeeze in Three full matches before 1 round of 40K is finished. 40K rules are i n s a n e. OPR is like Shinkansen; smooth, fast af, comfortable and fun... and also free.
Dude just move over to One Page Rules and you'll have lot's of fun again. WH40K = 1 round can easily take 3 hours. OPR = 1 Entire Match rarely takes 1 hour = Which means you can squeeze in Three full matches before 1 freaking round of 40K is finished. 40K rules are insane. OPR is like Shinkansen; smooth, fast AF, comfortable and fun... and also free. And since games goes so fast it's no big deal if one looses. We laugh instead. There are guides here and Rddt on how to build and play your armies. Join us, we are having fun!
The grumpiness on this video is brilliant but makes me really want to say thanks Brent. I wasn’t into wargaming at all but started watching your videos randomly because you (normally) give out really positive relaxed vibes, now I play a game called Bolt action and have got 6 of my friends involved (only one was a miniature enthusiast beforehand) you have been a genuine inspiration encouraging me to paint even if I’m not very good (yet) and just enjoy games because it’s time with friends and not just because they are competitive. All the best and keep up the good work.
40k was actually fun during 3rd edition to me. Most of the units didn't have any special rules - just statlines and equipment. Even most weapons didn't have any special rules. There were very few re-rolls so when they happen it felt powerfull. Most models had 1 wound so every failed save mattered.
Hard agree on this. I'm helping my son set up a wargaming club at his school, and while he started off with bloodbowl and heroquest, 40k has come up because its the biggest game. I hadn't played since 2nd ed, so i bought the rules and codexws and....sheesh. the number of rules for each individual units is mind breaking. And players are saying this is a simple version. I reckon one oage rules might be the way to go.
I loved 2nd edition but it was complicated games took a long time. As much as 3rd was a but too vanilla after 2nd it was a really clean ruleset and had a serious lack of rules creep.
@@spamerling833 I agree with everything you said (especially as I was one of the backgrounds writers for Firefight), but kids want Space Marines unfortunately.
I'm with you 100%. It's also extra frustrating to me when I feel like I understand how my army works and what my units do, and then a codex releases which changes 90% of how my stuff works and I need to wrangle with old vs new rules and remembering which is the correct, current rule.
Memorization and practice take time. They aren't giving us time anymore. Same reason I quit Magic. The brand has been insanely accelerated for absolute maximum profit. It's a self-defeating cycle, though. People who would have bought OCCASIONAL updates are bowing out and GeeDubs is forced to sustain itself on an ever-decreasing number of hardcore fans who buy ALL the updates.
Goobs - this is your magnum opus, seriously. So many well argued points that basically summarizes my own 30+ years of experience in the hobby, and framed in such a way that isn't mean spirited or offputting to the diehards of the games. Much better than the screaming rants I have when talking about my love/hate relationship with Warhammer games, lol
To me what it feels surreal is that they gutted the core rules to the point of damaging immersion, for then add layers and layers of intricate conditional stuff which could have been simulated in a way simpler way, and which leads to huge difficulties in teaching the games to new people. For the life of me, I cannot understand how this is better than the larger core rulebook (therefore a larger shared experience among players) but small codex model of older editions, especially the 3e-4e period.
@@Kaiyanwang82 I played hardcore from 3rd until 7th. Worked for Canadian HQ between 4th and 6th. Had a dozen armies, was a regular at a pile of tournaments, many of which I ran. The 8th edition swap was so painful for me, I vaguely played through some of it but totally quit came 9th. It felt like there was zero actual 40k left in the game, and it was all played in this realm of conditional gotcha rules. Like if I was still 22, maybe I could have kept up, but at that point I was a parent, had a non-gaming job, the actual work of keeping up with the new hotness was overwhelming, and the tabletop product nowhere near enjoyable enough to make up for it.
@@maevethefox5912 I think the first signs of this "MTG-40k" started in 6th and 7th with the use of psionics. From then, it was praised by people that think applying pre-made combos is being brilliant strategists instead you know - using terrain and troop roles for the mission.
@@Kaiyanwang82this is honestly one of the worst parts of 40k. Because it’s full army activation, and not unit by unit, you can just get utterly sodomized by the enemies rehearsed infinite damage routine before being able to do anything, and there’s a good chance you’ve lost a few things needed for your pre made damage routine
I "joined" the hobby 2 years ago. Intention: To casually learn to play the game, collect/build/paint armys for various game but mainly Warhammer (being most recognizable to me outside Star Wars legion) and if I enjoyed myself, regardless of how good I was I'd use the armys I built to compete officially for fun. The Reality: While the collect, Build & paint aspect was easily achieved I have yet to still play a single effin' game. I know not a soul in my area and the few game clubs I could find locally meet up nights I work. Then couple in the rules or points or something changing every 5 minutes makes a guy like me (with all new books replaced multiple times now) too embarrassed to even try to find anyone else to play, nor have the motivation to even look.
hehehehe... wellllll I should of put them behind coward rock, but in previous editions that would be perfect pie-plate positioning... plus it looks goofy :-)
To be totally fair I think in any game (without alternating activations) if you had fragile basic infantry of that type out in the open with absolutely 0 protection that would've happened regardless.
@@jamesdo3086 Yeah, also 'armies look awesome when they are running across the field to take objectives and do stuff' - well they would get a chance to do that if you started them in cover. The cool shots in a codex or a rulebook with everything in combat aren't representing deployment, they're representing the 2nd or 3rd turn where everything has started ramming into each other. That said I agree with pretty much everything else he said. it's a pity there isn't a version somewhere between the simplicity of OPR and the bloatedness of the modern 40k
Honestly no matter how much cover you are using in 40k, some of your units are still getting blasted off the table before you have a chance to do anything cool with them. When you put a ton of time in painting a model, and then it gets destroyed before you have a chance to roll any consequential dice with it, that's an ultimate bad feels moment.
@@jamesdo3086 There's a lot of Wargame Design at work here, but the short version is: In a well-designed game, "blowing up most of your opponent's army before they activate" shouldn't be a thing that's possible (barring something like "all of them deployed in front of the start line"). Ranges in 40k and similar games are far too long, letting you reach into your opponent's deployment zone (raising the question of why the armies politely didn't start shelling each other until they finished deployment). Long ranges in this games encourage cautious gameplay and a lack of movement, not the kind of movement and positioning that people usually like in minis games. Two gunlines facing each other are basically just playing Yahtzee until the opponent gives up. Another problem is that the way 40k's terrain rules work doesn't encourage squads to take cover the way that real troops do. In reality, a squad of troops would be scattered behind a variety of different walls, ridges, and other detritus, within shouting range of each other but not bunching up in one spot for grenades. 40k's rules don't allow this sort of situation, so you get a massive huddle of guys scrunched up behind a single building on what's otherwise a parking lot. It ain't great.
You succinctly summarise why I noped out of Warhammer games years ago. Your experience sounds identical to mine and it was always a frustrating time that ended up feeling like a bad game of cops and robbers where one kid keeps changing the rules.
21:32 You know what just occurred to me? That dice should have BOTH pips AND different-colored sides. Say, red for the "one" side, then orange for "two", yellow for "three", green for "four", blue for "five", and then black for "six". Yes, you'd also have white pips in the appropriate number. Anyway that way, when you roll a bunch of dice, it's much more immediately visually easy to pick out all the ones or sixes or whatnot. YES, I know picking them out obviously can be and is done now already, I'm just talking about making it easier and faster
@@GoobertownHobbies There's got to be some reason nobody's done it. I've seen white dice with one large colored circle on each face (in a shallow depression). I've seen white dice with different colored pips on each side. Maybe it costs too much or the colors wear off to have an entire face be a given color. But thanks for the encouragement
Because of this I really love warcry! Fewer minis, shorter rules, casual gameplay. And most importantly: an excuse for myself to collect models from every army from age of sigmar. 😂
As a country boy in my early 20's I moved to the city and discovered a Games Workshop Store. Wow! I bought a box of Warhammer Fantasy "Robin Hood and Merry Men" that were a part of the Brettonian forces. I bought paints, and spent the next couple of weeks painting them up for a beginner game at the store. I proudly set my little unit up on the store battlefield, and then watched as my unit was destroyed on the first round. I left and never played again. 20 years on, I play Blood Bowl. I have 5 teams, all of which are third party. Thanks GW.
That's roughly how my experience with 2nd Ed 40k went. Had a couple of small games with friends, showed up at the game store for a tournament thinking it would be a fun day, got told that I couldn't use some combination of models because of a rule in a book that wasn't the core rules or my codex, got nuked off the table and out of the tournament in short order.
Your segment about the hyper-specific combo moves and gotchas is what I like to call "January with Vanilla Pudding" rules. The name is a Spongebob reference, but basically it just refers to incredibly granular and specific rules that are either so specific that they will never come up but are annoying when they do or those really crunchy interactions that players spend days building entire strategies around to improve efficiency. I.E: If you are playing on the third wednesday of January and it's not raining outside after you eat vanilla pudding, you can reroll all wound rolls of 1. Like you, I really hate these rules. Sucks the fun right out of the game for me.
Completely true. I think also getting a handle on this takes one of two approaches (of course you can do both). The first is to play so many games and trial so much that you learn all the combos yourself, but that's usually a fairly committed gamer, not necessarily casual. The alternative is reading up outside of games, but many people like myself don't like the the feeling of having to study and revise for a game as if it was an exam. This rules bloat and combos killed 40k for me in 8th.
the unfortunate aspect of this game is not that those rules are hyperspecific, is that they come up EVERY TIME you roll, they are all different (even tho they all boil down to "reroll 1s"), slow down the pace of the game, have byzantine nomenclature, and have little interaction possible between the players if both of them don't put an absurd amount of time into learning every codex on earth.
We like to call 9th ed and to a lesser extent 10th ed playground rules. The classic “I have a forcefield you can’t shoot me. Nuh uh I have a gun that shoots through force fields” kind of thing.
@@joshebarrythere's a lot less of this in 10th... But it's totally ok to ask your opponents what special rules you need to watch out for before the game.
OPR was mentioned already in the comments (and the FAQ), but for me this was also the point where I actually started to play. The biggest game changer for me was that it removed a large hobby conflict for me: I did not have to chose between the models that I liked and the models that were good! I can just buy and convert the models I enjoy and then find a fitting and balanced army list (or make my own with OPR's army forge studio).
This was one of the best breakdowns of the hobby, for sure. Been following the channel for a while, since Brent's soothing voice always helps me paint minis, but this description is what just made me subscribe: I got into the hobby for the whole "customization and painting" aspect of it, so I rarely play. I finally got my teeth into 8th edition, only for it to be replaced by 9th. I played a single game and got wiped (similar experience as yours) turn 1. It just wasn't enjoyable and I didn't have the time to sit down and read all the strategies. So now I play Mordheim, since the rules are set and don't change. I can afford to play once every two months, because the game is what it is and it won't change again, realistically. So spot on, and thanks for being such a cool and chill hobbyst!!
Even when critical your "negativity" is still respectful, non confrontational and kind... can we please fill the world with people like you? :) I dont even have any intrest in this game, never had and still liked watching the whole video and found it intresting. Glad you choose to release the taped material anyway.
I play frostgrave and i agree. quick to learn much simpler then other games, but this also raises a core point of the videos realization. players , or ideally experienced teachers, recognizing what they like about games and moving towards games that cater to that. as small skirmish games, with much fewer factions (leader abilities basically) and everyone pulling from the exact same troops and very randomized dice results, 40k/sigmar/etc are radically different game types then frostgrave/stargrave.
@@orhanefeunal1811 I have no idea if you could order the physical books over there. However they sell the books as pdfs on ospreys website or other pdf websites. Their own miniatures are also not nessiciary. The author specifically encourages using your own models. I personally use my D&D miniature and board game miniatures in frostgrave. I have heard that their multipart part plastic kits are quite decent for the cost however.
In a lot of ways it's a "be careful what you wish for" situation. Back when I still played (3rd-5th editions), the pace of balance patches, rules changes, and even new releases were very slow and the community endlessly complained about it. "My army hasn't gotten any new models in 4 years! I want more stuff! I want it faster! " Well, you got it. Oops.
Other games handle this just fine. I play conquest the last argument of kings and there's never not new unit releases, and army releases are frequent. They give out the rules for free. They release the rules for the models before they come out. They listen to the community when there are issues. Making all this available to the player base just means that issues can be caught and resolved. GW could be doing this, but they just want to monetise every aspect, and aren't able to effectively engage with the community. The new stuff they have is quite cool, and honestly adding in a flow chart to go along with an army list, and making all the rules free and searchable would probably resolve a significant portion of their player retention. I love 40k, have a bunch of armies, and used to play constantly, but now I just feel like the constant stopping and starting during a game, forgetting rules etc is just far too common.
Yep. I get that the updates are a pain to follow if you arnt 100% all in, but it sure as hell beats "Well my new codex sucks, better luck next edition I guess"
Yup! That's my exact problem with Warhammer 40k in a nutshel. The basic mechanic, move, shoot, charge, fight. Those are straightforward, but familiarizing myself with all the special rules for 50 Space Marine Chapters, all the Chaos armies, Endless Orcs, Eldar, Space Dwarves, Tyranids, Tau and Space Mummies is just too much. I can't keep track, and while 19 out of 20 players in my community won't take advantage of their opponent's ignorance, there's always that last player who relies on their opponent not understanding all the rules to win games. It just makes for a bad experience.
I was a regular player from 3rd to 7th and was a Tournament organizer during 5th to 6th edition. Up to 5th edition I was among those few who could recall 80%+ of the core rules plus unit rules and points from all 15 army books of the day off the top of my head (regularly checking submitted army lists and adjudicating rules disputes will do that). I know that I was far beyond what most players would have been. From 6th onward it started getting more and more ridiculous - allies, super heavies then fortifications in 6th then formations in 7th was the killing blow. They they rebooted the game for 8th, changed many of the unit rules and stats, but threw in stratagems and modifiers and a plethora of re-rolls, all of which just put me well over the limit. I burnt out and had to take a break from the game. Now in 10th, despite GW's 'simplified but no simple' slogan, there is so much crap with all these new units and detachments and enhancements and stratagems, I can't even keep track of one codex, much less all of them. Pretty sure the vanilla Space marine codex alone now has more units and options in it than half a dozen of the army books from back in 5th did combined. Would hate to be a new player trying to get into the game as it currently is.
Holy cow I thought I was the only one who thought this. Everyone around me is playing with tonnes of passion but I'm sitting at the other end of the table waiting for some dice to be handed to me and see the orks I've spent weeks painted be wiped out. Then I pack it ip and go home and cry.
Wow. When the "Bob Ross" of miniatures painting has THIS to say about 40k. I feel you, though. I started in Rogue Trader and stopped by 8th. Too many rules and the locals I had to play with were always 'training for a tournament'. I still collect the models and do play some of the board games.
I played like a decade ago but didn't get into it when I rediscovered the hobby of miniatures gaming. Part of it was just the cost GW wants but also the rules keep changing and there are so many. I could see myself like the smaller unit count games they have or the same unit count at a smaller scale. Ideally something with alternative activation. I see one page rules as a good option. And for folks with an old army laying around and some buddies something easy to try out. For other games I feel like I might have to provide both forces. I think with GW the main thing they have going is just the momentum and market share in the hobby. Might not be able to find someone to play a game of some indie game you downloaded but there is probably someone to play a GW game if you live in a city with a GW shop.
as someone who LOVES rolling dice, I can do without the added mental load of double checking rules, so i get MORE time for playing MORE games to roll MORE dice!!
Thanks for this Brent, I really needed to hear this from someone else. I felt like a failure at the hobby that I love because I couldn't get into the game and this video helped me see we can like things the way we want to.
I came into the hobby thru historical gaming. Within half an hour I could see the gameplay issues with Warhammer. It’s a truly dreadful set of rules that fails at even the most basic objectives of replicating battle. Complete hogwash.
Yeah, it's almost disorienting to see everybody unanimously enjoy an ambiguous, rule heavy game that is near impossible to comprehend at a satisfactory level and spends all its time rolling dice and adjudicating thick rules Rather than interacting with each other or the minis on the board
I love 40k lore. I love GW models. I loved 40k in the 3.5 to 6th ed Era. In those days I maintained 7 armies and their rulebooks. I did not like 7th, and absolutely hate every edition that included command points and broke away from the force organization chart. Because of this, GW lost me buying rulebooks for all my armies, and new models for all 7 each release. My most recent 3 purchases from GW have been silver tower, Blackstone fortress, and cursed city. Now I have a 3d printer and print and paint fun models to use in frostgrave, or rangers of shadow deep.
Thanks for sharing this video. Honestly your frustration totally encapsulates my anxiety about attempting to get serious enough to play semi-regularly. Every few years a new edition gets released, and everything I knew is worthless again. New models, new rules, new meta... We went to Adepticon this year and had a wonderful time, and in our enthusiasm my companions and I decided "we're going to seriously learn and plan to play/compete next year!" and now that the post-event warm fuzzies are wearing off I'm wondering if that's even possible with our busy schedules haha.
So- "everything is worthless" is an exaggeration. Running Orks, my ork boyz have been good/useful in almost every iteration except for 7th (where grots, shockingly, were the best unit they had. But we won't talk about those dark times...) Background: I've been playing since 1992, cut my teeth on 2e and have played every edition since then with all the attendant ups and downs. I like Brent's channel, and I think many of his criticisms were fair- the game is expensive for a gaming hobby (though if you compare to non-gaming hobbies like cars, bass fishing, hunting, or woodworking, it's still "cheap" ), and the lag between hobbying things up to look nice and playing games is daunting. Some of it feels like, as Brent himself said- there is the way he wanted the game to "look" and how it is actually played. Taking fragile elves and standing them in the middle of an open field is...going to be a bad time for the elves. It's especially not how Drukhari or Aeldari are really played- they're the fast moving glass cannons that pop in and out of cover during and try to set up advantageous charges and firing lanes. 9e was very, very bloated by the end- fortunately in 10e GW has done a good job of walking that back by making most stratagems universal (any army can use them!) and minimizing the number of subfaction based special rules. Also, in most cases things like "this unit re-rolls 1's" are impactful to the game, not taking out the re-roll 1's guy is probably not going to lose you the battle unless you were already hanging on by your fingernails. A LOT of someone's experience will depend on your opponent, but thankfully the current overall community vibe is people tend to look down on gotchas as bad sportsmanship. A brief conversation to get the "5000 foot view" of your opponent is usually more than sufficient to give you the information you need for casual and semi-competitive matches. For example, I ask at the starts "what units have Fights First, Advance and Change, a Re-deploy, or Free Heroic Intervention?" It also helps a lot to tell your opponent what you're doing to ensure you both agree on game state- "Hey I'm moving these Hearthkyn behind this wall so that they can't be seen unless you reach this point on the board, and they are 30" away from your Ork Boyz so even wit an advance they will be out of your charge range." That way if the table gets bumped there is no confusion later. That being said- it's not everyone's cup of tea. I personally THRIVE on the vast unit variety and the ever changing tactics as my opponents grow and adapt to the game, and look for new strategies to use on the latest mission pack. But if you aren't a giant nerd for that sort of thing, or you don't enjoy looking over and digesting rulesets, you probably won't get as much enjoyment out of it as I do.
Things that are great about KT: Alternate activitions. Keeps both sides interested. Not much list building. Half of 40k seems to be about building the biggest, most ridiculous, highly lore-dubious rules combo before it gets nerfed as GW realise their error. A culture of no gotchas. Everyone explains their special rules up front. Cheap forces. Can be just one box of minis if you choose. Having so many factions now does make it hard to keep on top of opponents rules however.
10th edition arguably simplified the rules a lot, but it still feels like a lot of the rules are not "on the table", they're still all in the datasheets and books. As a result, you still feel like you have no idea what's going on when your opponent starts listing off various backstreet boy-related abilities.
@@DustyLamp At that point then it takes away any reason to buy a codex for those who like collecting. I can just use Wahapedia. I refuse to buy Crusade Books even for local crusade leagues.
Man on man in this a timely video! Literally played a game of 40K last night where I realised after turn one that I wasn’t really enjoying myself and almost felt like I was having an existential crisis because I couldn’t understand if I absolutely love 40K, love collecting & painting the models, love the lore, love making lists and even learning strategies but then when I start a game I get that same heavy feeling you accurately summed up!?! Don’t get me wrong, Id actually love to be more than a casual player but as a dad with two kids, a wife, a business and a job, Im unable to dedicate the time needed to go deep enough, through multiple weekly games to have my playing experience be, as you said “snappy”. I think for now something like Warcry (which I actually felt great playing) or Necromunda might be were my hobbie journey pivots to. Either way, thanks for putting this out there as it really helped me process and figure out why I was feeling the way I feeling about the game. Oh and the ‘Pledge the the Backstreet boys’, is the best strat I’ve ever heard of 😂😂😂 Cheers 🙏 👍 👌
"It feels like a sprint to get into the fun zone before the edition ends" This is why my friends and aren't playing 10th edition We know how 9th works We have armies that we understand and know what cool combos we can pull off We didn't want to throw half of that away for some temporary rules while we wait to buy another rule book for our army That and we're also stubborn And change scares us There's a reason none of us are playing Tzeentch armies
@@GoobertownHobbiesthere are quite large online communities for older editions, especially 6e WFB and 2e and 3e 40k. It's a great way to play the game in a more casual and friendly way IMO.
This channel is the best example for ‘you reap what you sow’. I read some of the comments before watching this and like I thought it was nothing but respect and acceptance - and that’s exactly what Brant is showing us with every second of his content in the past. Not coming on too strong, always being mind- and respectful and upfront with his thought process. Whilst watching I thought to myself ‘fair assessment but people gonna be offended’ Not the Goober family though, wholesome!
That is exactly why I am making my home a 10th edition home. Picking up codices, datasheet cards, eventually I will download and print final dataslate/points and I will be probably ignoring subsequent editions, maybe picking a single index/codex per edition just to be able to grab a pickup game at my LGS, its too much to keep up on while working 60-70 hours a week, managing a homestead and leaving room for other hobbies/activities.
I've recently dug out my old 3rd Edition 40K rulebooks mostly out of nostalgia's sake (and taking some inspiration in that post-Red Period, moderately grimdark painting style). The 3rd Ed rules felt like they had over-corrected on 2nd Edition's complexity, but these days if I were to go back to the game, I might start there. Everything felt faster and simpler -- sounds better with less time compared to when I was a teen.
All my fond memories of 40k are from 3rd and 4th edition. It seems like those were the days that people played what they wanted because there wasn't an Internet to tell them what to play. The rules were more basic but I like it. Marines were Marines. The colors just hinted at playstyle and maybe a special character or unit. Everyone moved the same, fought the same, and so on. Now there are too many factions and too many rules. I do like 10th in theory. But I have yet to play beyond 3 short tests of units with my friend.
The Trial Assault and Vehicle Rules for 3rd edition were solid. I am currently playing a 3rd edition campaign. Also the vehicle creation rules. We'll be shifting back to the OPR after a break to do fantasy stuff.
I started in 2e, but struggled a bit with it (I was 11!). 3e clicked for me when it came out, and I really enjoyed it. I think there were wonky bits, but there's something to be said for those 3e rulebook lists - if only there was one for Tau!
2e was clunky narrative DND rules (especially for melee and psychic, still using D20's) from RT stacked onto the skeleton of a skirmish wargame where herohammer reigned supreme. 3e came along with a sheen of professionalism and converted it to a straight wargame with less of an impact from individual characters (and that impact usually came from killing half a squad in an important close combat in turns 4+). Probably the best option for going back to 2nd Ed level games would be classic Necromunda. Modern 40k resembles 2nd ed way more than 3rd ed, with all the primarchs and the 50 billion special rules and strategems, and sucks.
In my book, that's just good game design feedback, not grumping. Great video, thank you for putting this out there. One of my hobbies is game design, so hearing how people react to games is valuable input. I agree with your concerns, and it's interesting to see how some other games try to solve these things, like the One Page Rules or even Warmachine/Hordes.
The 3 year edition cycle is nuts. Anyway. Thanks you for this video. I have both enjoyed and been frustrated by various aspects of 40k for two decades or so as well. Hopefully one day some hobby zen like you have!
I feel like three year cycle would be fine if all the rules and armies came out at once and then you would have three years of gaming with the same ruleset with maybe a couple of balancing updates that ideally only change point cost and nothing else.
Hey Brent! I stopped playing Warhammer about 12 years ago due to financial issues, and just recently returned. Sort of! I'm getting started on Kill Team and OnePageRules' Grimdark Future for the Saurian Starhost (thank you for painting them and showing how they play). Another small teams game that's nice and simple is War Cry. It's been described as a simpler fantasy Kill Team and it's on my list of things to try!
I restarted 40k in 10th, after about 25-30 years out. My take away impressions thus far are that the game is annoyingly complex, not becauae of the base rules but because of thev faction rules and how they effect play. They're so many permutations and combinations of stuff to begin to try to remember. You need to be dedicated to playing it constantly against multiple opponents to know whats going on. That sort of min max approach is not for me and not how the game used to be. Despite not having played 40k until recently I've followed it on lots of websites and content creators I genuinely believe the very substantial US tournament scene drives the games direction more than anything else. Thus I agree with your hypothesis in this video, its not for casuals, which alienates a lot of potential players.
The constant elaborate rule changes in every edition makes it feel like a single player game, which is the exact opposite of what we want out of a tabletop where we hang out with friends. Everyone has their own little mini game with the codex and nobody else can bother to learn so much to know everything. Like you said, it ends up being a game relying on trust when someone has to look up what even their own army is allowed to do.
Thank you for posting this. I got into this with a friend in 9th and am finding it all very difficult to keep up with. Makes me realize it's not just a me issue. I think I'm going to try the OPR to see if I get the joy back.
I had a similar experience with 40K, loved collecting, painting, and terrain building, but seemed to only get 3 or 4 games in before a new edition would come out, then your shelling out more money to update rules and codexes. I started with 3rd edition and quit after 6th. Appreciate the video!
Man, you hit it on the head. I deal with the same problem. I like many different games and it is difficult to keep up with 40k. It is a drag trying to get the rules figured out and which special rules my faction has. I think the last game of 40k I won was back in sixth edition. I would love to do the campaigns but I don't have the time to be able to regularly attend.
The moment i started playing Battletech and Moonstone was the moment Warhammer 40k instantly died for me. Even though i was a dedicated a 40k player. I recommen you play Moonstone, its without dice and bluffing your opponent is a crucial part of the game :P And in Battletech all models shoot simultanesly, so even if you die you can shoot back :)
I am with you in this 110%. I played 40k 20 years ago with my friends and the coolest thing was to customise your minis. 1,5 years ago I got an involuntary hospital visit and long sick leave, so I decided to restart my long gone hobby by starting a humor based Astra Militarum army with 90% of fun of making them and 10% chance of MAYBE playing a game someday. Oh boy, oh boy, when I started to go down in the rabbit hole with the updated rules... The 10% is maybe a 1% now. Another disappointment is definitely the fixed pose fixation GW has now. Older models had ALOT of customisation possibilities in them, but these new models with the fixed poses are quite frustrating. Thank you for showing that I am not alone with these thoughts!
While I enjoy 40k overall, the many reasons you outline in this video are why I shifted from full blown 40k to Kill Team. Kill Teams rules, game size, and smaller model requirement allows the hobby side to go nuts with up to 20 models max, faster games, easier to set up on a coffee table, and things like losing all your team Turn 1 don't generally happen.
Love this video Brother, I am blessed to be able to play 40K at least once a month and I still have trouble with the rules at time. I too have a hard time hiding my army turn 1 to my detriment and I never really thought about why. You nailed it. I like my army to look cool haha
Excellent video and points. As someone who is definitely a casual player in the same vein as you, (I agree with your points about things looking cool vs working well with the mechanics of the game) I can definitely feel where you are coming from. I have only played a couple people in the game due to having a family and a job that I have to be on the road for at times, but the two people I have played are on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as experience and knowledge. My first opponent, and the one I've played the most, is someone who goes to tournaments and knows the game really well. It's very nice to have someone who can help me with my rules and explain things to me, but I get the experience you have had, where he's reading things off to me and to be honest, I just kind of go blank. This is definitely because I'm still at the point where I have to look at my stats to know how far to move certain units, and what the weapon profiles are. I don't have a chance at remembering all the interactions he tells me at the beginning of the game or who does what. I usually get absolutely stomped in games with him, and while that's fine, it's not the most fun I've ever had. It usually just involves him rolling (then rerolling) dice and then telling me how many (failed) saving throws to attempt before I start removing models from the table. I can usually tell by round 2 that it's over, but I figure the only way to get better is to play more and work at it. My other opponent is my daughter, who is brand new as well. In those games we've only gone really basic. Just data cards for the most part, and we're going to slowly start working in stratagems and other things that get more complicated and it has been a blast. I still have only won 1 game, because she managed to roll double 1's on saving throws from Necron Warriors vs her SM Captain, but even that was a crazy game that I thought for sure I'd lose. That game however, went the full tilt and was close the whole time. I thought I would lose it, but it was never at the point where I had only wiped out maybe 1 squad and a character while the vast majority of my army was gone. Granted, when I played her, I tried not to go all out (for what that's worth as a complete newb =P), I let my squads be in places where she could shoot them, and I did disuade her from making big mistakes by explaining to her why she should do things like keep her SM Captain further away from my squads / characters so that I had to shoot the SM's first and she could keep her powerful guy safe (This was played with 9th edition rules as it was a mission from the starter box and I didn't want to mess things up by mixing and matching). I think a big part of the game is playing with people who are on your level as far as knowledge and skill. There's nothing wrong with playing people who are way above you, but it doesn't feel good as a casual player to get absolutely blown off the board, and know for certain that there's no way you can accomplish anything at the end of turn 2 or beginning of turn 3, for me at least. I know lots of people can enjoy the against all odds part of that, but for me, if I couldn't get anywhere with my whole army, I know there's no chance I'm getting anything done with two half strength squads left. By then it always feels like why even bother, because by the end of my opponenets next turn everything will be dead by then anyway. Where as when I played someone who is on the same level as me I'm not really sure where it's going to end up, it feels a lot more like it's going to depend on the dice, not that I made a mistake deploying turn 1 and it's all over now. Maybe it's worth trying to find some folks who are more on you're experience level and play with them. I've found the same thing in Magic: The Gathering as well. Playing against someone with the craziest meta or net list deck just isn't fun for me, I like a more casual experience. I've even been the one to build a deck that I played against my kids with, and it seemed they couldn't even do anything against it. I had a great time theorizing and building it, and it was fun to play this strong deck the first time or two, but after I realized it just stomped the people I was playing I stopped using it because the games became unfun due to the experience difference between the two opponents. For me it's not fun to be on either side of a blowout and I think it's very easy for huge blowouts to be the case, with how in depth 40k can be, so in the end, I think it's more about finding the right opponents than anything. For what my opinion is worth anyway. Thanks again for the video, it was great!
Here’s the thing tho: No one said you have to play the current edition rules. If you want to play 4th Edition or stick to 9th edition, that’s up to you. You don’t have to learn all the new rules every time unless you play tournament outside of your group. Don’t let that stop you from playing the game the way you want.
I think you've just encapsulated what I've been feeling and trying to understand/quantify for years and put it into words that I could actually process. This is exactly me. I love the lore, I love the models and painting and hanging out with friends but trying to keep up with or understand enough to be able to play with any understanding of why x does y is just beyond me these days.
Thank you so much for finally putting my feelings of 40k into a video! For a lot of theses reasons, ive switched to playing a lot of the GW specialist games and I haven't looked back!
I humbly prefer to take the backseat and just focus on Killteam. Smaller scale, little yet action filled battles, and simple to grasp rules that fit in 2 pages I can just download as A4 pages for free. Yeah, I miss the entire point of massive armies clashing, but I get to make each and every single one of my have their own little bits of personality. And better yet, the future dream of getting a set of new Space Marine and Skaven models and having my own little rat marine chapter becomes much simpler when it's 6 figures to work on and not 30!
Hi Brent, I love this video! Here's the best part: you haven't connected with it, and THAT IS OKAY! You find what you love in the hobby. If you want to wargame your way, you do that. I may be biased as I want more OPR videos from you... but it is still okay for a game to not be for you :) We're all happy that you love painting, and you bring us joy with that. Thank you!
@@GoobertownHobbies completely! I’m playing an event in a few weeks, and we each have to bring army lists for our opponents… and it will take 5 minutes to read, tops! We get enjoyment from your enjoyment, thanks for the great videos (and if you want to make more OPR, I’m sure we will enjoy that too!)
Never Started Playing only tried a starterbox, even there i got frustrated. You made a very good mention by saying no one would play it with tokens/Standees, for me thats enough to know why i never should start! If a game is mechanicly not fun, it almost never will be fun however it is packaged
Brent - every point you make in this video is extremely valid criticism that echoes my experience with warhammer and other wargames perfectly. If GW can't get YOU of all people (who have a long nostalgic connection with the game, are surrounded on a daily basis by gamers and gaming products, and who's literal job is to paint minis on youtube) to enjoy their game, then that is NOT ON YOU. They have had decades of time, millions of dollars, and countless opportunities to prove that their game is worth playing. If you can't bring yourself to enjoy it, then that is the designer's fault, not yours. By all means, keep collecting the minis and painting them if it makes you happy. But don't feel like you owe the game another shot until they reach out to YOU - through advertising or some public marketing campaign - to show that they have made significant changes to make the game better for folks at your level. Find something else you enjoy doing more with your time, and do that instead!
Gods above I felt this so hard! My group and I got back into 40k in the twilight months of 9th, and during that period played a lot of games. I actually enjoyed 9th a bunch, likely because we were in that honeymoon phase and playing frequently enough to know the rules. Then 10th came along and I've not enjoyed a single match, to the point where I just stopped going to game night, which compounds the issue because then you find yourself one balance data slate behind, then two, then when you think you might play again it's like you have to relearn the game all over again. For you last point about LOS blocking terrain; I was looking through some old White Dwarf magazines from 2003 at the weekend and they had a 40k battle report in there and I was amazed by how little terrain was on the board and how great the armies looked all deployed in the open and charging across the battlefield at each other, rather than blocked up in blobs behind L shaped tournament ruins. I think all of that together is why right now I'm much more interested in the Old World than 40k. Because it's a revival of a previously dead system being run by the specialist games team, I don't think we can expect edition updates every 3 years. Looking at the Middle Earth game for comparison, that got it's last major rulebook update in 2018, which is a really nice length of time to get really familiar with the rules.
I got into Warhammer late (Just a few years ago in my 30's) and I have to say this is what keeps me away from Warhammer proper. Constant data slates and erratas, rules updates, changes, etc. in a system that's only going to exist for 3 years is absurd. No one except tourney sweats and kids have the time or energy to keep track of all this stuff, and it makes the game less fun when you buy a rules book and a month later it's outdated and a year and a half later it's obsolete. I've stuck with Kill Team, which has the exact same problem but at a much lower cost of entry and time sink, got a few Combat Patrols for Combat Patrol which only requires a box of minis and a single page download, and I've gravitated towards Horus Heresy for my big games (even though no one plays it where I live, it's still nice to have an army and some hardcovers for something).
Somewhere down the line of the editions 40k got sucked into a death spiral of more and more lethal shooting compensated for by more and more prevalent terrain. They even made some noises about realizing the problem and lowering lethality in 10th...only to have that turn out to be a total joke.
@@assistantref5084 I can tell you exactly how that started. Its a bit of a rant, but it'll help people understand how we got to the current situation. The trigger of the 40k arms race began in 5th edition. In early 2000's around 3rd/4th ed era the Internet had become widely available and the online gaming communities had really taken off. GW wanted to get in on that market, so started making changes to the game that would appeal to those people. Its where the 'tournament metagame' concept really kicked off for 40k, as that had already been well established in competitive online gaming communities. I'd been playing events since 3rd, but the whole 'that guy/hardcore netlist' thing was far less common back then, with most people content to rock up, roll dice and have beers. GW's new direction kicked off in 5th, where they began aggressively marketing towards the younger teen players rather than older players (despite the fact the average gamer age at the time was 27). It worked and that online attitude quickly found its way into 40k tournaments, becoming hyper competitive. Online forums quickly changed to a high focus on discussing what the biggest power combos were and how each new book release would affect the game meta as a whole. The second half of this was GW also deciding to start slow rolling elements of the old 4th ed apocalypse expansion into regular 40k across the following 4 editions (flyers in 5th, fortifications in late 5th/6th, allies and super heavies in 6th, formations in 7th and finally stratagems in 8th). And thanks to GW's codex release schedule where army books were released roughly 4 months apart and each army had to wait for a 3-4 year cycle for an update (or in some cases far longer), the roll-out was absolutely terrible. For example, Imperial factions got their flyers very early in 5th, whilst many other Xenos factions did not get their own flyers or even units able to counter said enemy flyers until well into 6th edition. However, I personally consider the introduction of Imperial Knights in 6th edition as the moment which well and truly destroyed the old game balance forever. ). Their stats were so different and often far harder to kill than almost all other vehicles at the time (partly due to their invulnerable saves, which made it easier to kill a land raider or monolith than a knight despite the slightly lower armour values). From their inception knight armies were effectively playing an entirely different mode of 40k than everyone other faction, but despite that every other army now needed a counter for them. By this I mean that Knights vs Knight games are usually fun as they have matched internal balance/power level, but I rarely see any knight vs non-knight faction games that were fun for the non-knight player. The tournament scene really felt the blow, as the 'meta' was completely upended, armies now needing to be built around the whole question of "can you kill or at least stall a knight?" For a while some armies had virtually no answer for knights, Tyanids being prime among those, as right up until the end of 7th they utterly lacked any ranged anti tank weapons able to reliably bring one down at range, whilst all the big monsters that could potentially kill a knight in melee also had lower initiative than the knights, meaning the knights would strike first and hard enough to probably kill your tyranid monster outright before it even got the chance to attack unless the knight completely fluffed their dice rolls. 7th ed formations were another step too far, with the marine Gladius Strike force being among the first to drop early in 7th, allowing marine players access to free transports. The OP combo was taking 12 Razorbacks with heavy bolters which was approximately 840 points worth of units, thus allowing marine players to effectively field a 2840 point army in a standard 2000 points game. Aside from the transports being a rather tough wall of armour with not shabby firepower, all of them also had objective secured, so could really screw over other armies on the objective game. As typical of GW over the course of the edition some factions got almost entirely duds for their formations whilst others like the Eldar were so disgustingly broken that other armies just couldn't compete - even the 2800 point marine army regularly lost to them. Game lethality also peaked here, as it was this edition where the game fully crossed the line into Alpha strike territory, where players could use shenanigans with reserves and turn 1/2 deep strike along with overwhelming firepower to effectively cripple their opponent beyond recovery on turn 1 with almost no chance for their opponent to react or respond. 8th ed was supposed to be a reset for all this. It failed utterly but for different reasons. It got rid of some of the more broken elements of earlier editions, but at the same time, between stratagems, warlord traits, relics and multiple detachments, the rules bloat became so bad that keeping track of things just became impossible. Broken combos popped up everywhere, constant shifting of the meta with every new release or update, and with so many item/combo/army rule interactions to keep track of, there was absolutely no hope of ever balancing the game with the existing points based system. By 9th GW had stopped trying. 10th ed was again another reboot. Which again, failed to resolve the issues. But I'd argue widely succeeded in GW's eyes, as by forcing the 9th edition 'power level' style system on us over the older points system, they still have the same problems, but there is now far less work required on their end to fix them by repricing whole unit entries rather than trying to accurately cost every little bit of wargear. They won't ever be going back to the old way. Also, their business model is now firmly based on the exploitative idea of "fear of missing out". Limited run early releases to capitalize on interest and drum up sales, then slowly roll out occasional top ups after a lengthy waiting period, so customers have even greater incentive's to go for those earlier sales. It works too well for them to change it. In fact, it works so well they could even drop the first two major codex releases of the new 10th edition with more than half their respective ranges out of stock, a situation I personally find completely insane for many reasons. Yet not only did they not get extreme backlash, many people fought over what little was available. Only a larger established company like GW could ever hope to get away with that and survive.
@@wisecrack4545 I was put of 40k between 6-8th edition so missed a lot of that period, but a lot of what you're saying here makes sense. I was a forum mod back in the 5th edition days and I remember how common list building discussions grew to be in that edition. And I totally agree about the skew knights had on the game. I think the moment our local meta died is when one player decided to buy a knight. It immediately shifted everyone's attitudes towards list building and things never recovered.
I agree with so much of what you say in this video. I started building a 40K Ork (well, more of a Grot) army some time ago and, because I'm both a slow painter and have plenty of other things to do besides, it took me some time to get enough models painted ready for a game. And then the rules changed for a second time! So, I've kind of been put off playing 40K because of the pace of change. I'll probably stick with smaller skirmish games from now on.
4:04 Man, that well thumbed codex with the splitting spine and goofy looking models brings back memories. I started collecting Dark Eldar when I was like 15, only a year or two before they refreshed the whole model line!
honestly i appreciate the lore of 40k and the cool detail on the models the most. been in the hobby since december and i still haven’t played a proper game 😅 the minis are what i was drawn to.
Loved the video. Only got into 40k a bit over a year ago. Played 9th, 10th, & OPR 3.0 thus far. And everything you voiced is how I think I & many others feel. I honestly think there needs to be more games like you are describing. I hope to be involved in a building a game like that one day.
Dude! I loved this video! I know ZERO about 40k wargaming and I think that made it even more funnier to me. I legit laughed out loud listening to your tone. Keep on the good work my friend!
I am with you 100%! Any game that takes longer to learn than to play has zero appeal to me. Too many rules choke gameplay. Special rules honestly, should be in a deck of cards that people can pull from when certain conditions are met. Like if you roll more than 50% fails, you can use one of your finite number of special rules to pull a card to change fortune. In stark contrast to reading an encyclopedia-sized rule book and either being forced to remember or pause the game to look something up. That is zero fun for the opposition. I have no interest in learning the grillions of rules in 40k...that and the fact that I have no friends so it is pointless for me!
I feel similarly. Things got a lot better for me when I started playing Kill Team instead! I've heard great things about One Page Rules too. My husband and I are currently figuring out how we can play through Crusade: Pariah Nexus using OPR or Kill Team. If you try either of those games, please make a video on them!
Glad to know I am not alone in getting grumpy with the constant rule changes. I do see many players that enjoy the constant updates so I know it has its place. I had a single 9th edition game after having last played 5th edition. It disappoints me they have messed with so much and it is still an I go you go turn for the entire army. I see 10th edition is now out too. Old grumpy sounds. On the up side Warhamer the old world is out and the changes are small and mostly good. I would still like it if it was my unit goes then your unit goes like One page rules. Saves people getting bored and doom scrolling on their phones.
Thanks for this video. I think it was probably what I needed to hear. Like yourself I have tried repeatedly to enjoy 40k because friends play it, but just failed every time and wasn’t really sure what it was that was holding me back. This has answered so many questions I had and has given me a sense of tranquility and peace of mind. I think it’s time for me to let go of trying to enjoy 40k. It’s just not for me. Thanks for opening my eyes.
Right there with you Brent. With all the long winded and complicated rule sets, its like being trapped in a room with a gang of accountants and lawyers. 40k is just a soul crushing experience and physically draining to play. Im a much bigger fan of the smaller and simpler skirmish games
This is a great video and captures what I believe to be the essence of the idea and the anticipation of playing the game is better than the actual playing of the game.
Same feels from a different perspective. I’ve always preferred 2nd ed 40k. I used to accept it as just nostalgia for the edition that I played the most and was most excited for new minis and such. But now in my mid-40s, I’ve realized that my fondness is more for how relatively small the game was. There were only about 11-12 codexes, if you count Angels of Death as 2 and include the late edition Sisters codex and Necrons WD list. Plus the size of the armies. A typical Marine army in the first years of that edition tended to follow the rules of 2ish - IE 1-3 characters, 1-3 squads, 1-3 support elements like dreads and tanks. When I played WHFB 5th Ed, I thought Undead would be my army as I loved the minis. But I hated the summoning mechanic as it made it feel like the core experience of any game was just shuffling models on and off the table. I feel the same about modern 40k. You start with these huge armies and the game is designed to immediately begin culling down models and units. 2nd, on the other hand, on a bigger table with smaller and slower armies, in a standard 4 turn game you’d have limited shooting the first turn and often no close combat until turn 3 at the earliest. I know Kill Team exists, but I genuinely wish GW would release a “small scale” 40k that returned to the RT/2nd Ed era scale. Bigger than skirmish but much smaller than the current version. I feel like GW either dismissed or doesn’t appreciate the value of tactical movement as part of gameplay and the gaming experience. They seem to sacrifice everything for the sole element of removing enemy models from play.
This really makes me appreciate that the only tabletop game I play, Battletech, has only really had minor errata over the past 20 years. Sure, I haven't kept up with some of the new tech added to it, but those are just a matter of a few additional rules for movement largely specific to whatever unit is using it.
100% agree with your entire sentiment. I have not tried to play 40k, it is so daunting. I watched a few videos about how to play and quickly decided that OPR was such a better option, with such a lower barrier to entry, and so much lower cost. I watched your OPR game of Saurian Starhost vs Demons and it seemed like you were both having fun. Watching How to play/battle reports from Warboss Fitz has also gotten me closer to actually trying it out.
I love how your voice is so soothing and there is no background music/noise edited in. Kinda feels like i'm watching a relaxing meditation video lol. Nice vibe. Awesome video as usual
I completely understand your frustrations, that was me when i first started playing but it's really not that hard to learn if you're playing with an honest helpful person.
Pretty much its the yearly Madden Football/FIFA problem, where it makes the game too much about development releasing new product than making the game better.
I agree with you completely about 9th edition. Me and my friends felt overwhelmed with the 9th ed rules, and we swaped to onepage rules its way more fun. But when 10th edition came out we gave it a try and loved it way more! P.S. core rules and indexes are free on warhammer comunity
@@AdoringAdmireri mean it depends of how many games are you playing. More you play faster you learn. But in beginning start learning basic like how to move, shoot etc. then start adding like detachemnt rules then strategems and other stuff. Me and my friend started learning by playing 300pts battles with only datacards and army rule then next time we added detachemnt rule and strategems. And weapons have special rules like sustained hits, lethal hits, etc. for those we made a little cheat sheet that explains rules for them and it helped a lot. Learning is more fun if you are learning along side friend and you will make a lot of mistakes and misremember a lot of rules but that is the process of learning. Most important thing is that you have fun!
I agree with this video a lot, it took me about 3 years to understand the general rules of the game (changing from 8th-9th) then I took a break and rejoined during tenth and it’s still a lot to learn. Every new army facing is a different surprise and worry it’s just overwhelming
Brent, You nailed it, and I could not have said it better. Warhammer 40k, Warhammer Fantasy Battle, and Bolt Action(WW2 for Warhammer players) all have a dice rolling and cheese factor that drives me away, no mater how many times I try. Sticking to Battletech (you can wing it still with a 40 year old rulebook), and Chain of Command, also uses same rulebook. Tired of it all changing, every 3 years. Just done with GW.
Whoa, lots of people are actually watching this! I can't keep up with all of the comments, so here's an FAQ ;-)
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-I'm genuinely happy for anyone who has found a game that they enjoy, keep on having fun! 🙂
-The definition of "casual" in this video is based on the number of Saturdays Per Year (SPY) devoted to a particular hobby.
- I started learning Warhammer 40k in 1999 on the same day that I started learning how to paint. I played some of 3rd, 4th, 7th, 8th, and 9th.
-My painting journey has been cumulative and rewarding, my 40k journey keeps getting hard resets every few years.
-I've heard that 10th edition is "better," but I haven't tried it. In 2 years we'll see whether or not 11th is even better than 10th.
-"Just play an older edition" is fantastic advice! There may be issues with incorporating newer units/ armies, but I'm sure those can be worked around.
-My friends are lovely, there is nobody I would rather play against.
-My opponents offered to explain anything that I wanted about their armies. I requested the *quick* (low-headache) rundown of their army lists before each of the games.
.
-One reason why deploying a whole army in 2-3 huge piles behind LOS blocking terrain looks dumb (IMO) is because we all understand that explosions are a thing... regardless of how they are represented in the rules.
-Magic Commander is easy to return to after a few years because Sakura Tribe Elder and Llanowar Elves keep doing the same exact things that they've always done :-) The free-for-all design and the existence of board wipes in MTG also help to keep rusty players alive in the game.
-DnD is easy to return to for *players*, but obviously requires a ton of prep for DMs.
-5th edition DnD (current edition) released the same year as 7th edition Warhammer 40K.
-Yes, I have heard of OPR ;-) ruclips.net/video/86sQ6xAqPcI/видео.html
Same here, trying to like 40k for years... but i also love hanging out with friends and painting the awesome models. I really enjoyed OPR though. Unfortunately no community around here.
@GoobertownHobbies
I've tried getting in the 40K I went to buy a new codex for tyranids and ended up getting the 9th edition codex from Amazon. So now I have two of the same codex's.
One thing that I've found a passion with is the combat patrols and killteam. More simple rules (that change less) and if I want to try a new play style and dip my toes in a different faction I won't break the bank.
Also when is tyranids gonna get a new killteam?
I think it's resonating because you said what a lot of people had been thinking for a long time.
I have played a few editions of 40k and fantasy and enjoyed them, BUT I never had time to learn the other armies info. A friend introduced me to Mantic Games' Firefight and Kings of War. Each has fewer books to buy and less "lore" to sift through. I don't have a ton of time so I just want the rules. Also I like Firefight's alternating activation, I move a unit, then you move one.
make videos complaining about GW rules, someone will watch them.
"The rules change faster than my ability or desire to learn new rules."
Exactly!
Alpha strikes: yes exactly! hitting all the good points
"The rules change faster than my ability or willingness to learn them." - Absolutely right. That is 40K summed up in one. It makes even the most experienced table top gamer feal like an absolute novice. The barrier to entry is just so high.
@@l200jjkwhy do they do this though? Is it just ultimately a ploy to make you constantly buy more/new models (older ones become obsolete or nerfed), or is it just that GW cannot stop tinkering with the rules for perfectionism sake?
Like, I understand that AoS has gone through a few updates because it's a new game and it's now alot more balanced than it was when it first came.out. that's good. But for 40k, how has there not long-since reached a point at where the rules are "perfected" (more or less) and then just set in stone. It's weird tbh
It's absolutely an issue of the current GW business model. Having seen the evolution from the GW of the 90's the difference is shocking. Witnessing the sheer amount of constant new releases gives me anxiety, and that's as someone who doesn't even play 40k!
skill issue
I love that your negativity is still more positive than most Warhammer RUclipsrs' neutral coverage.
This is Goobertown's grim dark
Goobertown channels discourse minis and somehow still makes the world a happier place
@@cheapandtacky3472 I feel like if Brent and Discourse did a joint video it'd break the Internet
Can't really complain about deploying like a retard out of cover though.
Thats not a fault of the system. Which has many.
@@fremandnlmao
Brent. I was tracking with the video, but you absolutely killed me when "My army pledged allegiance to the backstreet boys.. and in beast mode the backstreet boys will give them..."
Backstreet Boys give the best passive bonuses
If only I had known this before choosing armies that can’t pledge allegiance to the Backstreet Boys. Beast Mode OP!
This video was exceptional!
I watched it last night, but couldn't comment from my TV. I really want to sit down and do an entire reply episode on this subject or a dissection from another angle. I half want to beg you to join us and do a sequel conversation of sorts. You touched on so many of the topics that 10th edition changed from 9th, while also pointing out the major complaint most people have with the presentation of the rules from GW with gatekeeping your opponents rules behind a paywall and the archaic format of physical rulebooks. The idea that the entire rules of the game evolve over time and the impact it has on different types of players is another whole topic. Even the things I'd call new player/casual player mistakes you showed off in your games are interesting to discuss the way they could possibly be avoided by setting up player expectations correctly and presenting rules to the player differently. (GW actually is doing some of these now, but they would also be interesting to discuss how they're tackling certain issues.)
Always happy to help out on an episode- I dunno if you wanna bring me on as a guest who doesn't know anything about the game though hahahaha
For what it's worth (as a fan of both channels) I'd love to watch that episode! I tend to fall more on the competitive side of Warhammer and have been playing routinely for a few years now, but it can be really helpful to understand how crappy and overwhelming it is to try and get into playing warhammer, especially in regards to GW's decisions that streamline the game more but might annoy some hardcore players.
This Collab needs to happen, for the people's sanity.
Make the collaboration happen please - I can’t wait to see another take from someone who didn’t enjoy the game as much.
I started in 9th and have really enjoyed the game. Theres a handful of critiques I have but many of them have worked out over time. I do consider myself a casual 40K player.
Of course, it’s always fine to have different preferences
Guys, YES
Great and fair assessment.
Been a player since '89 and been through every edition (except 6th 'cause I blinked). After 35 years, my 40k philosophy is: people come for the models, stay for the lore, and suffer the rules. My son (now 11) started his journey in the final days of 8th and, after recently playing a few games of Mantic's Armada and Gaslands: Refueled, had the sudden realization: "Dad? 40k's not all that fun." I think he was worried I'd be upset, but I just smiled and said "Welcome to the club."
Keep doing what you do, Brent. Love the channel!
Gaslands is a wonderful way to play a few races, especially if the players are all focused on casual mayhem and less on taking the most bleeding edge meta team and making only the most efficient moves. It's a death race! Go crazy for some high-risk, cinematic plays.
As an amateur game designer, Mike's rules are so good it makes me mad! Gaslands is such an excellent rule set. Mike really knocked it out of the park. His Billion Suns is also seriously good and I can't wait for him to release Hobgoblin.
I played for a few years in the 2000s. What also bothered me was the pay to win model with all the expansion books with special rules
If he likes Gaslands, definitely check out A Billion Suns. Same author. For 28mm armies, check out Xenos Rampant.
Gaslands is solid. Equally good is Turnip28. Free rules and games last an hour but are filled with real choices and also some zaniness.
Youre not wrong. Your assessment of the 40k experience is spot on.For a lot of people, theyre stuck in the abusive relationship that is the Games Workshop release cycle. The best games theyve put out are the ones they dont support anymore, so you can actually learn the rules, they wont ever change, and everyone can have fun
A 50min stay in Goobertown?? Now that's a vacation!!
Vacationland!
Hobby trip!!
As someone who is just getting back into the game from a long hiatus, I can already tell that I would appreciate a longer edition cycle.
Longer edition cycle wont fix fundamental flaws. The game is stuck in the 80s - IGO-UGO Alpha-strike nonsense wrapped in a diaper made of duct-tape and proprietary copy-writable word-salad.
@@Vorpal_Wit Turns not being at the same time is completely wack to me as a Battletech Player. What's the fun when you can just get alpha struck without any response? It's better when two things can absolutely trade, making everything riskier.
My main issue with recent iterations of 40k is that the core rules barely matter when things are largely powerful due to special rules or stratagems.
8th 9th and 10th aren't tabletop miniature games since thecmajority of your time you are admin for your books, its not fun in the slightest, and considering GW dont know how to write rules or play test 40k, all rules are wrong forcing you to use the app since even the datacards (which were never needed) are wrong before release.
40k 10th is a garbage system. The best way to play 8th 9th or 10th editions of 40k is to scrap secondaries and CPs and actually play warhammer for a change.
So glad fantasy has come back as Old World, having so much fun repainting my ogres, then have the tomb king core box to work through ^^
@@eskhaphey2873 Same boat with Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos and Tomb Kings. I tried AoS, I tried 40K 6th edition and I couldn't like either; though I will say AoS is more of a grudge that my favourite game was axed for it which in turn killed my gaming community, so there's a bias I couldn't overcome.
If I want 40K, I play 3rd edition, write a list using the Force Organisation Chart, roll a scenario and play.
@@Karloss00 for me, aos is basically aura 40k, where you require characters to make units usable, pre 8th this was never the case, units functioned like units and interacted with the enemy, now you need characters to be the sergeant of a unit (since sergeants are useless) and are required to go through a stratagem to be mildly effective.
Aos 4th does look mildly okay, but much more invested with Old World. My 40k will just gather dust until 11th and pray GW learn how to read, otherwise bring on 12th...
Easy solution. Switch to One page rules. Free rules. Much faster gameplay. Use your existing minis. Yes, it has less depth and is not without it's own problems. But overall, we seldom look back.
My single largest issue with OPR is the movement mechanics 😭 it’s horrible.
@@wastucar8127 What about the movement bugs you?
or try Xenos Rampant, I've enjoyed that using my old 40k minis.
I agree with OPR more straight forward for newer players
@@wastucar8127whats the problem with the movement mechanics. Elaborate.
I think you have helped me realize why I struggle with 40k myself. I love collecting the models, I love painting, But actually playing just doesn't excite me. With the rules always changing, all the special rules, it just frustrates me, which sucks, because I want to enjoy the game.
Consider returning to 3rd edition! I run a FB group for this wonderful edition :)
I was just like you until i tried One Page Rules. Come join us in the OPR community! We are having fun!
There are many other wargames to enjoy out there.
Highly recommend Star Wars Legion. The game is far more affordable and the community continues to grow.
There rules... aren't erally changing. They are mostly harminious all the way back to 6th still, there's not much different outside of codexes... its gotten more and mroe simpler, which sucks. I want it more complex, most people do.
As a casual gamer, your description of what you like about minis games sounds like what a casual gamer likes.
Your feelings on this are valid. Best part of the 40K hobby is hanging out and chatting about the game with friends. I still talk 40k with friends, but I don't play anymore.
I also appreciate your stance on not hiding behind cover. I used to play Daemons and spent 90% of the game getting riddled with bullets as I charged.
I don't understand how people enjoy the game. You spend hundreds of hours making and painting an army only for it to he half obliterated at the end of round 1.
Dude just move over to One Page Rules and you'll have lot's of fun again.
WH40K = 1 round can easily take 3 hours.
OPR = 1 Entire Match rarely takes 1 hour = Which means you can squeeze in Three full matches before 1 freaking round of 40K is finished.
40K rules are i n s a n e.
OPR is like Shinkansen; smooth, fast AF, comfortable and fun (and also 100% free).
And since games goes so fast it's no big deal if one looses. We laugh instead.
There are guides here on yt and Rddit on how to build and play your armies. Come join us, we are having fun!
Dude just move over to One Page Rules and you'll have lot's of fun again.
WH40K = 1 round can easily take 3 hours.
OPR = 1 Entire Match rarely takes 1 hour = Which means you can squeeze in Three full matches before 1 freaking round of 40K is finished.
40K rules are i n s a n e.
OPR is like Shinkansen; smooth, fast AF, comfortable and fun (and also 100% free).
And since games goes so fast it's no big deal if one looses. We laugh instead.
There are guides here and Rddt on how to build and play your armies. Come join us, we are having fun!
Dude come over to One Page Rules and you'll have lot's of fun again.
WH40K = 1 round can easily take 3 hours.
OPR = 1 Entire Match rarely takes 1 hour = Which means you can squeeze in Three full matches before 1 round of 40K is finished.
40K rules are i n s a n e.
OPR is like Shinkansen; smooth, fast af, comfortable and fun... and also free.
Dude just move over to One Page Rules and you'll have lot's of fun again.
WH40K = 1 round can easily take 3 hours.
OPR = 1 Entire Match rarely takes 1 hour = Which means you can squeeze in Three full matches before 1 freaking round of 40K is finished.
40K rules are insane.
OPR is like Shinkansen; smooth, fast AF, comfortable and fun... and also free.
And since games goes so fast it's no big deal if one looses. We laugh instead.
There are guides here and Rddt on how to build and play your armies. Join us, we are having fun!
The grumpiness on this video is brilliant but makes me really want to say thanks Brent. I wasn’t into wargaming at all but started watching your videos randomly because you (normally) give out really positive relaxed vibes, now I play a game called Bolt action and have got 6 of my friends involved (only one was a miniature enthusiast beforehand) you have been a genuine inspiration encouraging me to paint even if I’m not very good (yet) and just enjoy games because it’s time with friends and not just because they are competitive. All the best and keep up the good work.
And bolt action is the best miniature game.
Bolt Action is great!
Bolt Action is fantastic
40k was actually fun during 3rd edition to me. Most of the units didn't have any special rules - just statlines and equipment. Even most weapons didn't have any special rules. There were very few re-rolls so when they happen it felt powerfull. Most models had 1 wound so every failed save mattered.
Hard agree on this. I'm helping my son set up a wargaming club at his school, and while he started off with bloodbowl and heroquest, 40k has come up because its the biggest game. I hadn't played since 2nd ed, so i bought the rules and codexws and....sheesh. the number of rules for each individual units is mind breaking. And players are saying this is a simple version.
I reckon one oage rules might be the way to go.
Nice! best of luck with that club, that sounds great :-)
We completely switched to Firefight. It's a wargame as you imagine a tabletop. Similar to OPR just (in my opinion) a bit more fun.
I loved 2nd edition but it was complicated games took a long time. As much as 3rd was a but too vanilla after 2nd it was a really clean ruleset and had a serious lack of rules creep.
@@spamerling833 I agree with everything you said (especially as I was one of the backgrounds writers for Firefight), but kids want Space Marines unfortunately.
They say it's a simple version because marketing and the usual suspect websites told them so, not because it's true.
But Goober, how are we gonna keep pumping out 40 dollar army books if we don't give them the backstreet boys re-roll?!
aren't they $55 now? ;-)
ugh...@@GoobertownHobbies
I think $60....
@@GoobertownHobbies
You mean $200 preorders?
I heard this comment in my head.
I'm with you 100%. It's also extra frustrating to me when I feel like I understand how my army works and what my units do, and then a codex releases which changes 90% of how my stuff works and I need to wrangle with old vs new rules and remembering which is the correct, current rule.
yeah the old rules really do clog up the brainspace after a while!
Memorization and practice take time. They aren't giving us time anymore. Same reason I quit Magic. The brand has been insanely accelerated for absolute maximum profit. It's a self-defeating cycle, though. People who would have bought OCCASIONAL updates are bowing out and GeeDubs is forced to sustain itself on an ever-decreasing number of hardcore fans who buy ALL the updates.
All hail the Backstreet Boys! Bless these guns.
Goobs - this is your magnum opus, seriously. So many well argued points that basically summarizes my own 30+ years of experience in the hobby, and framed in such a way that isn't mean spirited or offputting to the diehards of the games. Much better than the screaming rants I have when talking about my love/hate relationship with Warhammer games, lol
To me what it feels surreal is that they gutted the core rules to the point of damaging immersion, for then add layers and layers of intricate conditional stuff which could have been simulated in a way simpler way, and which leads to huge difficulties in teaching the games to new people. For the life of me, I cannot understand how this is better than the larger core rulebook (therefore a larger shared experience among players) but small codex model of older editions, especially the 3e-4e period.
@@Kaiyanwang82 I played hardcore from 3rd until 7th. Worked for Canadian HQ between 4th and 6th. Had a dozen armies, was a regular at a pile of tournaments, many of which I ran. The 8th edition swap was so painful for me, I vaguely played through some of it but totally quit came 9th. It felt like there was zero actual 40k left in the game, and it was all played in this realm of conditional gotcha rules. Like if I was still 22, maybe I could have kept up, but at that point I was a parent, had a non-gaming job, the actual work of keeping up with the new hotness was overwhelming, and the tabletop product nowhere near enjoyable enough to make up for it.
@@maevethefox5912 I think the first signs of this "MTG-40k" started in 6th and 7th with the use of psionics. From then, it was praised by people that think applying pre-made combos is being brilliant strategists instead you know - using terrain and troop roles for the mission.
@@Kaiyanwang82this is honestly one of the worst parts of 40k. Because it’s full army activation, and not unit by unit, you can just get utterly sodomized by the enemies rehearsed infinite damage routine before being able to do anything, and there’s a good chance you’ve lost a few things needed for your pre made damage routine
I "joined" the hobby 2 years ago. Intention: To casually learn to play the game, collect/build/paint armys for various game but mainly Warhammer (being most recognizable to me outside Star Wars legion) and if I enjoyed myself, regardless of how good I was I'd use the armys I built to compete officially for fun. The Reality: While the collect, Build & paint aspect was easily achieved I have yet to still play a single effin' game. I know not a soul in my area and the few game clubs I could find locally meet up nights I work. Then couple in the rules or points or something changing every 5 minutes makes a guy like me (with all new books replaced multiple times now) too embarrassed to even try to find anyone else to play, nor have the motivation to even look.
The pain is very real.
One page rules
I lost 49 of my 60 warriors in their first shooting phase before I got to do anything. Statements like that are one of the many reasons I left 40k.
hehehehe... wellllll I should of put them behind coward rock, but in previous editions that would be perfect pie-plate positioning... plus it looks goofy :-)
To be totally fair I think in any game (without alternating activations) if you had fragile basic infantry of that type out in the open with absolutely 0 protection that would've happened regardless.
@@jamesdo3086 Yeah, also 'armies look awesome when they are running across the field to take objectives and do stuff' - well they would get a chance to do that if you started them in cover. The cool shots in a codex or a rulebook with everything in combat aren't representing deployment, they're representing the 2nd or 3rd turn where everything has started ramming into each other. That said I agree with pretty much everything else he said. it's a pity there isn't a version somewhere between the simplicity of OPR and the bloatedness of the modern 40k
Honestly no matter how much cover you are using in 40k, some of your units are still getting blasted off the table before you have a chance to do anything cool with them. When you put a ton of time in painting a model, and then it gets destroyed before you have a chance to roll any consequential dice with it, that's an ultimate bad feels moment.
@@jamesdo3086 There's a lot of Wargame Design at work here, but the short version is: In a well-designed game, "blowing up most of your opponent's army before they activate" shouldn't be a thing that's possible (barring something like "all of them deployed in front of the start line").
Ranges in 40k and similar games are far too long, letting you reach into your opponent's deployment zone (raising the question of why the armies politely didn't start shelling each other until they finished deployment). Long ranges in this games encourage cautious gameplay and a lack of movement, not the kind of movement and positioning that people usually like in minis games. Two gunlines facing each other are basically just playing Yahtzee until the opponent gives up.
Another problem is that the way 40k's terrain rules work doesn't encourage squads to take cover the way that real troops do. In reality, a squad of troops would be scattered behind a variety of different walls, ridges, and other detritus, within shouting range of each other but not bunching up in one spot for grenades. 40k's rules don't allow this sort of situation, so you get a massive huddle of guys scrunched up behind a single building on what's otherwise a parking lot. It ain't great.
You succinctly summarise why I noped out of Warhammer games years ago. Your experience sounds identical to mine and it was always a frustrating time that ended up feeling like a bad game of cops and robbers where one kid keeps changing the rules.
21:32 You know what just occurred to me? That dice should have BOTH pips AND different-colored sides. Say, red for the "one" side, then orange for "two", yellow for "three", green for "four", blue for "five", and then black for "six". Yes, you'd also have white pips in the appropriate number. Anyway that way, when you roll a bunch of dice, it's much more immediately visually easy to pick out all the ones or sixes or whatnot. YES, I know picking them out obviously can be and is done now already, I'm just talking about making it easier and faster
hehehe, this is a good moneymaking idea, don't go giving it away to internet strangers like this! go make your color-coded d6's!! :-)
@@GoobertownHobbies There's got to be some reason nobody's done it. I've seen white dice with one large colored circle on each face (in a shallow depression). I've seen white dice with different colored pips on each side. Maybe it costs too much or the colors wear off to have an entire face be a given color. But thanks for the encouragement
I played rogue trader once back in the late 80s, it can’t have changed too much since then, surely
i have two rule books for 40k. Rogue Trader and 10th Ed...... they are about the same thickness if that counts for anything
In some ways it's changed radically , in others it's not changed enough.
It seems that you re-roll some dices for random reasons now :) I only played 1st and 2nd Edition, so I might also be a casual player
😂That’s a good one👍🏼
@@antoinea3660 I also only play 1st and 2nd. :)
Because of this I really love warcry! Fewer minis, shorter rules, casual gameplay. And most importantly: an excuse for myself to collect models from every army from age of sigmar. 😂
I was going to get right into it but couldn't find players. Everyone is on 40k.
Warcry is GWs best game nobody plays. It’s miles better than their other games.
As a country boy in my early 20's I moved to the city and discovered a Games Workshop Store. Wow! I bought a box of Warhammer Fantasy "Robin Hood and Merry Men" that were a part of the Brettonian forces. I bought paints, and spent the next couple of weeks painting them up for a beginner game at the store. I proudly set my little unit up on the store battlefield, and then watched as my unit was destroyed on the first round. I left and never played again. 20 years on, I play Blood Bowl. I have 5 teams, all of which are third party. Thanks GW.
That's roughly how my experience with 2nd Ed 40k went. Had a couple of small games with friends, showed up at the game store for a tournament thinking it would be a fun day, got told that I couldn't use some combination of models because of a rule in a book that wasn't the core rules or my codex, got nuked off the table and out of the tournament in short order.
@@Adam.Lovatt I feel your pain man.
Damn that stings.
You gave up too easily. You could have asked for advice, casual games and stuff.
@@Campaigner82 he's refering to the inherent shit experience of the I Go You Go system. Not very enjoyable.
Your segment about the hyper-specific combo moves and gotchas is what I like to call "January with Vanilla Pudding" rules. The name is a Spongebob reference, but basically it just refers to incredibly granular and specific rules that are either so specific that they will never come up but are annoying when they do or those really crunchy interactions that players spend days building entire strategies around to improve efficiency. I.E: If you are playing on the third wednesday of January and it's not raining outside after you eat vanilla pudding, you can reroll all wound rolls of 1.
Like you, I really hate these rules. Sucks the fun right out of the game for me.
Completely true. I think also getting a handle on this takes one of two approaches (of course you can do both). The first is to play so many games and trial so much that you learn all the combos yourself, but that's usually a fairly committed gamer, not necessarily casual. The alternative is reading up outside of games, but many people like myself don't like the the feeling of having to study and revise for a game as if it was an exam. This rules bloat and combos killed 40k for me in 8th.
the unfortunate aspect of this game is not that those rules are hyperspecific, is that they come up EVERY TIME you roll, they are all different (even tho they all boil down to "reroll 1s"), slow down the pace of the game, have byzantine nomenclature, and have little interaction possible between the players if both of them don't put an absurd amount of time into learning every codex on earth.
We like to call 9th ed and to a lesser extent 10th ed playground rules. The classic “I have a forcefield you can’t shoot me. Nuh uh I have a gun that shoots through force fields” kind of thing.
@@andrewrembert4793 That's such a good analogy hahaha
@@joshebarrythere's a lot less of this in 10th...
But it's totally ok to ask your opponents what special rules you need to watch out for before the game.
OPR was mentioned already in the comments (and the FAQ), but for me this was also the point where I actually started to play. The biggest game changer for me was that it removed a large hobby conflict for me: I did not have to chose between the models that I liked and the models that were good! I can just buy and convert the models I enjoy and then find a fitting and balanced army list (or make my own with OPR's army forge studio).
This was one of the best breakdowns of the hobby, for sure. Been following the channel for a while, since Brent's soothing voice always helps me paint minis, but this description is what just made me subscribe: I got into the hobby for the whole "customization and painting" aspect of it, so I rarely play. I finally got my teeth into 8th edition, only for it to be replaced by 9th. I played a single game and got wiped (similar experience as yours) turn 1. It just wasn't enjoyable and I didn't have the time to sit down and read all the strategies. So now I play Mordheim, since the rules are set and don't change. I can afford to play once every two months, because the game is what it is and it won't change again, realistically. So spot on, and thanks for being such a cool and chill hobbyst!!
Even when critical your "negativity" is still respectful, non confrontational and kind... can we please fill the world with people like you? :) I dont even have any intrest in this game, never had and still liked watching the whole video and found it intresting. Glad you choose to release the taped material anyway.
If you like casual miniature games, Frostgrave and Stargrave are extremely fun and quick to learn
I play frostgrave and i agree. quick to learn much simpler then other games, but this also raises a core point of the videos realization. players , or ideally experienced teachers, recognizing what they like about games and moving towards games that cater to that. as small skirmish games, with much fewer factions (leader abilities basically) and everyone pulling from the exact same troops and very randomized dice results, 40k/sigmar/etc are radically different game types then frostgrave/stargrave.
Battletech
are they sold in turkey ?
@@orhanefeunal1811 I have no idea if you could order the physical books over there. However they sell the books as pdfs on ospreys website or other pdf websites. Their own miniatures are also not nessiciary. The author specifically encourages using your own models. I personally use my D&D miniature and board game miniatures in frostgrave. I have heard that their multipart part plastic kits are quite decent for the cost however.
In a lot of ways it's a "be careful what you wish for" situation. Back when I still played (3rd-5th editions), the pace of balance patches, rules changes, and even new releases were very slow and the community endlessly complained about it. "My army hasn't gotten any new models in 4 years! I want more stuff! I want it faster! " Well, you got it. Oops.
This is also true. I think we old farts are all guilty of this.
I played back in 3rd-5th and I much prefer what we have now 7000% what we had then.
Other games handle this just fine. I play conquest the last argument of kings and there's never not new unit releases, and army releases are frequent.
They give out the rules for free. They release the rules for the models before they come out. They listen to the community when there are issues. Making all this available to the player base just means that issues can be caught and resolved.
GW could be doing this, but they just want to monetise every aspect, and aren't able to effectively engage with the community. The new stuff they have is quite cool, and honestly adding in a flow chart to go along with an army list, and making all the rules free and searchable would probably resolve a significant portion of their player retention. I love 40k, have a bunch of armies, and used to play constantly, but now I just feel like the constant stopping and starting during a game, forgetting rules etc is just far too common.
Yep. I get that the updates are a pain to follow if you arnt 100% all in, but it sure as hell beats "Well my new codex sucks, better luck next edition I guess"
@@mumblez7712 What about keeping it simple and update timely the blunders though? Too difficult?
Yup! That's my exact problem with Warhammer 40k in a nutshel. The basic mechanic, move, shoot, charge, fight. Those are straightforward, but familiarizing myself with all the special rules for 50 Space Marine Chapters, all the Chaos armies, Endless Orcs, Eldar, Space Dwarves, Tyranids, Tau and Space Mummies is just too much. I can't keep track, and while 19 out of 20 players in my community won't take advantage of their opponent's ignorance, there's always that last player who relies on their opponent not understanding all the rules to win games. It just makes for a bad experience.
yupyup! and these opponents weren't doing any gotcha stuff, it's just that there were tooooo many dang rules! :-)
you forgot knights
:p
IMO the rules for all the factions would be fine if the core rules didn't have gotchas and unfun interactions baked into them.
I was a regular player from 3rd to 7th and was a Tournament organizer during 5th to 6th edition.
Up to 5th edition I was among those few who could recall 80%+ of the core rules plus unit rules and points from all 15 army books of the day off the top of my head (regularly checking submitted army lists and adjudicating rules disputes will do that). I know that I was far beyond what most players would have been.
From 6th onward it started getting more and more ridiculous - allies, super heavies then fortifications in 6th then formations in 7th was the killing blow. They they rebooted the game for 8th, changed many of the unit rules and stats, but threw in stratagems and modifiers and a plethora of re-rolls, all of which just put me well over the limit. I burnt out and had to take a break from the game.
Now in 10th, despite GW's 'simplified but no simple' slogan, there is so much crap with all these new units and detachments and enhancements and stratagems, I can't even keep track of one codex, much less all of them. Pretty sure the vanilla Space marine codex alone now has more units and options in it than half a dozen of the army books from back in 5th did combined.
Would hate to be a new player trying to get into the game as it currently is.
@@NurtsyBWCand Chaos Knights... and Guard.. but who's counting?
Holy cow I thought I was the only one who thought this. Everyone around me is playing with tonnes of passion but I'm sitting at the other end of the table waiting for some dice to be handed to me and see the orks I've spent weeks painted be wiped out. Then I pack it ip and go home and cry.
Wow. When the "Bob Ross" of miniatures painting has THIS to say about 40k. I feel you, though.
I started in Rogue Trader and stopped by 8th. Too many rules and the locals I had to play with were always 'training for a tournament'. I still collect the models and do play some of the board games.
As a 40k veteran, I have been feeling this way for a long time. You articulate my feelings in a way I couldn't. Thank you!
I played like a decade ago but didn't get into it when I rediscovered the hobby of miniatures gaming. Part of it was just the cost GW wants but also the rules keep changing and there are so many. I could see myself like the smaller unit count games they have or the same unit count at a smaller scale. Ideally something with alternative activation. I see one page rules as a good option. And for folks with an old army laying around and some buddies something easy to try out. For other games I feel like I might have to provide both forces.
I think with GW the main thing they have going is just the momentum and market share in the hobby. Might not be able to find someone to play a game of some indie game you downloaded but there is probably someone to play a GW game if you live in a city with a GW shop.
10e is great. Things are tougher, defensive units matter (not just offensive).
Games all about the objectives.
as someone who LOVES rolling dice, I can do without the added mental load of double checking rules, so i get MORE time for playing MORE games to roll MORE dice!!
MORE DICE!!! :-)
Thanks for this Brent, I really needed to hear this from someone else. I felt like a failure at the hobby that I love because I couldn't get into the game and this video helped me see we can like things the way we want to.
glad I'm not alone! :-)
Me too! I’m coming back to the hobby after playing LotR back when I was a kid. I’m really glad I’m not the only one feeling this way
I came into the hobby thru historical gaming. Within half an hour I could see the gameplay issues with Warhammer. It’s a truly dreadful set of rules that fails at even the most basic objectives of replicating battle. Complete hogwash.
Yeah, it's almost disorienting to see everybody unanimously enjoy an ambiguous, rule heavy game that is near impossible to comprehend at a satisfactory level and spends all its time rolling dice and adjudicating thick rules Rather than interacting with each other or the minis on the board
this is exactly the same way i feel about magic the gathering commander. To a T
I love 40k lore. I love GW models. I loved 40k in the 3.5 to 6th ed Era. In those days I maintained 7 armies and their rulebooks.
I did not like 7th, and absolutely hate every edition that included command points and broke away from the force organization chart. Because of this, GW lost me buying rulebooks for all my armies, and new models for all 7 each release. My most recent 3 purchases from GW have been silver tower, Blackstone fortress, and cursed city.
Now I have a 3d printer and print and paint fun models to use in frostgrave, or rangers of shadow deep.
We just play 4th/5th and let the constant hamsterwheel of nerf/buff roll on without us.
You really should try One Page Rules. You can continue using all of your 40k armies.
Thanks for sharing this video. Honestly your frustration totally encapsulates my anxiety about attempting to get serious enough to play semi-regularly. Every few years a new edition gets released, and everything I knew is worthless again. New models, new rules, new meta... We went to Adepticon this year and had a wonderful time, and in our enthusiasm my companions and I decided "we're going to seriously learn and plan to play/compete next year!" and now that the post-event warm fuzzies are wearing off I'm wondering if that's even possible with our busy schedules haha.
At some point we all got jobs, wives, kids, other hobbies.....
So- "everything is worthless" is an exaggeration. Running Orks, my ork boyz have been good/useful in almost every iteration except for 7th (where grots, shockingly, were the best unit they had. But we won't talk about those dark times...)
Background: I've been playing since 1992, cut my teeth on 2e and have played every edition since then with all the attendant ups and downs.
I like Brent's channel, and I think many of his criticisms were fair- the game is expensive for a gaming hobby (though if you compare to non-gaming hobbies like cars, bass fishing, hunting, or woodworking, it's still "cheap" ), and the lag between hobbying things up to look nice and playing games is daunting.
Some of it feels like, as Brent himself said- there is the way he wanted the game to "look" and how it is actually played. Taking fragile elves and standing them in the middle of an open field is...going to be a bad time for the elves. It's especially not how Drukhari or Aeldari are really played- they're the fast moving glass cannons that pop in and out of cover during and try to set up advantageous charges and firing lanes.
9e was very, very bloated by the end- fortunately in 10e GW has done a good job of walking that back by making most stratagems universal (any army can use them!) and minimizing the number of subfaction based special rules. Also, in most cases things like "this unit re-rolls 1's" are impactful to the game, not taking out the re-roll 1's guy is probably not going to lose you the battle unless you were already hanging on by your fingernails.
A LOT of someone's experience will depend on your opponent, but thankfully the current overall community vibe is people tend to look down on gotchas as bad sportsmanship. A brief conversation to get the "5000 foot view" of your opponent is usually more than sufficient to give you the information you need for casual and semi-competitive matches. For example, I ask at the starts "what units have Fights First, Advance and Change, a Re-deploy, or Free Heroic Intervention?" It also helps a lot to tell your opponent what you're doing to ensure you both agree on game state- "Hey I'm moving these Hearthkyn behind this wall so that they can't be seen unless you reach this point on the board, and they are 30" away from your Ork Boyz so even wit an advance they will be out of your charge range." That way if the table gets bumped there is no confusion later.
That being said- it's not everyone's cup of tea. I personally THRIVE on the vast unit variety and the ever changing tactics as my opponents grow and adapt to the game, and look for new strategies to use on the latest mission pack. But if you aren't a giant nerd for that sort of thing, or you don't enjoy looking over and digesting rulesets, you probably won't get as much enjoyment out of it as I do.
Try Kill Team! It's like a boiled down version of Warhammer, a much smaller scale as well. And fewer models mean more time for painting.
Things that are great about KT:
Alternate activitions. Keeps both sides interested.
Not much list building. Half of 40k seems to be about building the biggest, most ridiculous, highly lore-dubious rules combo before it gets nerfed as GW realise their error.
A culture of no gotchas. Everyone explains their special rules up front.
Cheap forces. Can be just one box of minis if you choose.
Having so many factions now does make it hard to keep on top of opponents rules however.
10th edition arguably simplified the rules a lot, but it still feels like a lot of the rules are not "on the table", they're still all in the datasheets and books. As a result, you still feel like you have no idea what's going on when your opponent starts listing off various backstreet boy-related abilities.
I haven't played in several editions.
Came back for 10th. Having a blast.
Best edition in a while
Theres like 20 factions in the game. What do you want? It's not a board game where all the rules can be in one spot up front.
@@benn1181actually, they can be. If they cut out all the fluff, every factions specialty rules could fit in a book the size of the core rulebook.
@@DustyLamp At that point then it takes away any reason to buy a codex for those who like collecting. I can just use Wahapedia. I refuse to buy Crusade Books even for local crusade leagues.
@@DustyLampThat might actually make the game playable
Man on man in this a timely video!
Literally played a game of 40K last night where I realised after turn one that I wasn’t really enjoying myself and almost felt like I was having an existential crisis because I couldn’t understand if I absolutely love 40K, love collecting & painting the models, love the lore, love making lists and even learning strategies but then when I start a game I get that same heavy feeling you accurately summed up!?!
Don’t get me wrong, Id actually love to be more than a casual player but as a dad with two kids, a wife, a business and a job, Im unable to dedicate the time needed to go deep enough, through multiple weekly games to have my playing experience be, as you said “snappy”.
I think for now something like Warcry (which I actually felt great playing) or Necromunda might be were my hobbie journey pivots to.
Either way, thanks for putting this out there as it really helped me process and figure out why I was feeling the way I feeling about the game.
Oh and the ‘Pledge the the Backstreet boys’, is the best strat I’ve ever heard of 😂😂😂
Cheers
🙏 👍 👌
yes! a grumpy goobertown video!
Grumpertown!
"It feels like a sprint to get into the fun zone before the edition ends"
This is why my friends and aren't playing 10th edition
We know how 9th works
We have armies that we understand and know what cool combos we can pull off
We didn't want to throw half of that away for some temporary rules while we wait to buy another rule book for our army
That and we're also stubborn
And change scares us
There's a reason none of us are playing Tzeentch armies
nice! are you actually playing a previous edition? that's a great way to do things, not enough game groups do this.
@@GoobertownHobbiesthere are quite large online communities for older editions, especially 6e WFB and 2e and 3e 40k. It's a great way to play the game in a more casual and friendly way IMO.
The 2 times I've played in the last year was still 9th edition, too! I barely have time to play as it is. Forget learning the rules all over again.
I feel like only 1% or less of the 40k fan base actually plays the table top.
Agreed. The percentage of models sold compares to the number that make it to a game must be astronomical.
@@GoobertownHobbies Not to mention the people who only read the books.
Haven't finished the video yet but can't believe you were gonna ditch such awesome timelapse footage
I tried to ditch it, but I couldn't bring myself to do it... the timelapse had to be seen!!! ;-)
Also I think you would enjoy 10th with your game group. Lot more simplified and you can buy handy cards to make referencing easier.
@@robertderouin3169 Aren't they already outdated? 😄
@@Christian_from_CopenhagenIf not yet they will be by the next time he plays…but 11th edition will FIX ALL THAT IS WRONG of course😂
This channel is the best example for ‘you reap what you sow’. I read some of the comments before watching this and like I thought it was nothing but respect and acceptance - and that’s exactly what Brant is showing us with every second of his content in the past. Not coming on too strong, always being mind- and respectful and upfront with his thought process.
Whilst watching I thought to myself ‘fair assessment but people gonna be offended’
Not the Goober family though, wholesome!
That is exactly why I am making my home a 10th edition home. Picking up codices, datasheet cards, eventually I will download and print final dataslate/points and I will be probably ignoring subsequent editions, maybe picking a single index/codex per edition just to be able to grab a pickup game at my LGS, its too much to keep up on while working 60-70 hours a week, managing a homestead and leaving room for other hobbies/activities.
I've recently dug out my old 3rd Edition 40K rulebooks mostly out of nostalgia's sake (and taking some inspiration in that post-Red Period, moderately grimdark painting style). The 3rd Ed rules felt like they had over-corrected on 2nd Edition's complexity, but these days if I were to go back to the game, I might start there. Everything felt faster and simpler -- sounds better with less time compared to when I was a teen.
All my fond memories of 40k are from 3rd and 4th edition. It seems like those were the days that people played what they wanted because there wasn't an Internet to tell them what to play.
The rules were more basic but I like it. Marines were Marines. The colors just hinted at playstyle and maybe a special character or unit.
Everyone moved the same, fought the same, and so on. Now there are too many factions and too many rules. I do like 10th in theory. But I have yet to play beyond 3 short tests of units with my friend.
The Trial Assault and Vehicle Rules for 3rd edition were solid. I am currently playing a 3rd edition campaign. Also the vehicle creation rules.
We'll be shifting back to the OPR after a break to do fantasy stuff.
I started in 2e, but struggled a bit with it (I was 11!). 3e clicked for me when it came out, and I really enjoyed it. I think there were wonky bits, but there's something to be said for those 3e rulebook lists - if only there was one for Tau!
2e was clunky narrative DND rules (especially for melee and psychic, still using D20's) from RT stacked onto the skeleton of a skirmish wargame where herohammer reigned supreme. 3e came along with a sheen of professionalism and converted it to a straight wargame with less of an impact from individual characters (and that impact usually came from killing half a squad in an important close combat in turns 4+). Probably the best option for going back to 2nd Ed level games would be classic Necromunda. Modern 40k resembles 2nd ed way more than 3rd ed, with all the primarchs and the 50 billion special rules and strategems, and sucks.
I got a hint of sass on the second game and I was already laughing. They look awesome, even when hiding behind rocks like cowards. Love it!
In my book, that's just good game design feedback, not grumping. Great video, thank you for putting this out there. One of my hobbies is game design, so hearing how people react to games is valuable input. I agree with your concerns, and it's interesting to see how some other games try to solve these things, like the One Page Rules or even Warmachine/Hordes.
The 3 year edition cycle is nuts.
Anyway. Thanks you for this video. I have both enjoyed and been frustrated by various aspects of 40k for two decades or so as well. Hopefully one day some hobby zen like you have!
I feel like three year cycle would be fine if all the rules and armies came out at once and then you would have three years of gaming with the same ruleset with maybe a couple of balancing updates that ideally only change point cost and nothing else.
@@Metalbirne 3 years if you have to buy big expensive hardbacks is crazy.
@@johnnybigbones4955 I disagree
@@johnnybigbones4955you don’t “need” to buy hardbacks… all the rules can be found online fairly easily…
So many sweet Dark Eldar ships and you didn't end up painting any of them. Those were the best models.
they would have protected his kabalites too, Dark Eldar are the ONE army you dont want your infantry exposed and on foot.
I totally agree with your point of view. My group simply started to play the 4th edition of 40k and BOY OH BOY! THIS IS FUN!
Hey Brent! I stopped playing Warhammer about 12 years ago due to financial issues, and just recently returned. Sort of! I'm getting started on Kill Team and OnePageRules' Grimdark Future for the Saurian Starhost (thank you for painting them and showing how they play).
Another small teams game that's nice and simple is War Cry. It's been described as a simpler fantasy Kill Team and it's on my list of things to try!
I restarted 40k in 10th, after about 25-30 years out. My take away impressions thus far are that the game is annoyingly complex, not becauae of the base rules but because of thev faction rules and how they effect play. They're so many permutations and combinations of stuff to begin to try to remember. You need to be dedicated to playing it constantly against multiple opponents to know whats going on.
That sort of min max approach is not for me and not how the game used to be. Despite not having played 40k until recently I've followed it on lots of websites and content creators I genuinely believe the very substantial US tournament scene drives the games direction more than anything else. Thus I agree with your hypothesis in this video, its not for casuals, which alienates a lot of potential players.
The constant elaborate rule changes in every edition makes it feel like a single player game, which is the exact opposite of what we want out of a tabletop where we hang out with friends. Everyone has their own little mini game with the codex and nobody else can bother to learn so much to know everything. Like you said, it ends up being a game relying on trust when someone has to look up what even their own army is allowed to do.
Thank you for posting this. I got into this with a friend in 9th and am finding it all very difficult to keep up with. Makes me realize it's not just a me issue. I think I'm going to try the OPR to see if I get the joy back.
I had a similar experience with 40K, loved collecting, painting, and terrain building, but seemed to only get 3 or 4 games in before a new edition would come out, then your shelling out more money to update rules and codexes. I started with 3rd edition and quit after 6th. Appreciate the video!
A game of year will make any game hard though to be fair
Man, you hit it on the head. I deal with the same problem. I like many different games and it is difficult to keep up with 40k. It is a drag trying to get the rules figured out and which special rules my faction has. I think the last game of 40k I won was back in sixth edition. I would love to do the campaigns but I don't have the time to be able to regularly attend.
The moment i started playing Battletech and Moonstone was the moment Warhammer 40k instantly died for me. Even though i was a dedicated a 40k player. I recommen you play Moonstone, its without dice and bluffing your opponent is a crucial part of the game :P
And in Battletech all models shoot simultanesly, so even if you die you can shoot back :)
Once you dabble in other miniature games, even other gw games, you see how absurdly far below the standard 40k is
I am with you in this 110%. I played 40k 20 years ago with my friends and the coolest thing was to customise your minis. 1,5 years ago I got an involuntary hospital visit and long sick leave, so I decided to restart my long gone hobby by starting a humor based Astra Militarum army with 90% of fun of making them and 10% chance of MAYBE playing a game someday. Oh boy, oh boy, when I started to go down in the rabbit hole with the updated rules... The 10% is maybe a 1% now. Another disappointment is definitely the fixed pose fixation GW has now. Older models had ALOT of customisation possibilities in them, but these new models with the fixed poses are quite frustrating. Thank you for showing that I am not alone with these thoughts!
While I enjoy 40k overall, the many reasons you outline in this video are why I shifted from full blown 40k to Kill Team.
Kill Teams rules, game size, and smaller model requirement allows the hobby side to go nuts with up to 20 models max, faster games, easier to set up on a coffee table, and things like losing all your team Turn 1 don't generally happen.
Love this video Brother, I am blessed to be able to play 40K at least once a month and I still have trouble with the rules at time. I too have a hard time hiding my army turn 1 to my detriment and I never really thought about why. You nailed it. I like my army to look cool haha
Excellent video and points. As someone who is definitely a casual player in the same vein as you, (I agree with your points about things looking cool vs working well with the mechanics of the game) I can definitely feel where you are coming from. I have only played a couple people in the game due to having a family and a job that I have to be on the road for at times, but the two people I have played are on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as experience and knowledge.
My first opponent, and the one I've played the most, is someone who goes to tournaments and knows the game really well. It's very nice to have someone who can help me with my rules and explain things to me, but I get the experience you have had, where he's reading things off to me and to be honest, I just kind of go blank. This is definitely because I'm still at the point where I have to look at my stats to know how far to move certain units, and what the weapon profiles are. I don't have a chance at remembering all the interactions he tells me at the beginning of the game or who does what. I usually get absolutely stomped in games with him, and while that's fine, it's not the most fun I've ever had. It usually just involves him rolling (then rerolling) dice and then telling me how many (failed) saving throws to attempt before I start removing models from the table. I can usually tell by round 2 that it's over, but I figure the only way to get better is to play more and work at it.
My other opponent is my daughter, who is brand new as well. In those games we've only gone really basic. Just data cards for the most part, and we're going to slowly start working in stratagems and other things that get more complicated and it has been a blast. I still have only won 1 game, because she managed to roll double 1's on saving throws from Necron Warriors vs her SM Captain, but even that was a crazy game that I thought for sure I'd lose. That game however, went the full tilt and was close the whole time. I thought I would lose it, but it was never at the point where I had only wiped out maybe 1 squad and a character while the vast majority of my army was gone. Granted, when I played her, I tried not to go all out (for what that's worth as a complete newb =P), I let my squads be in places where she could shoot them, and I did disuade her from making big mistakes by explaining to her why she should do things like keep her SM Captain further away from my squads / characters so that I had to shoot the SM's first and she could keep her powerful guy safe (This was played with 9th edition rules as it was a mission from the starter box and I didn't want to mess things up by mixing and matching).
I think a big part of the game is playing with people who are on your level as far as knowledge and skill. There's nothing wrong with playing people who are way above you, but it doesn't feel good as a casual player to get absolutely blown off the board, and know for certain that there's no way you can accomplish anything at the end of turn 2 or beginning of turn 3, for me at least. I know lots of people can enjoy the against all odds part of that, but for me, if I couldn't get anywhere with my whole army, I know there's no chance I'm getting anything done with two half strength squads left. By then it always feels like why even bother, because by the end of my opponenets next turn everything will be dead by then anyway. Where as when I played someone who is on the same level as me I'm not really sure where it's going to end up, it feels a lot more like it's going to depend on the dice, not that I made a mistake deploying turn 1 and it's all over now. Maybe it's worth trying to find some folks who are more on you're experience level and play with them. I've found the same thing in Magic: The Gathering as well. Playing against someone with the craziest meta or net list deck just isn't fun for me, I like a more casual experience. I've even been the one to build a deck that I played against my kids with, and it seemed they couldn't even do anything against it. I had a great time theorizing and building it, and it was fun to play this strong deck the first time or two, but after I realized it just stomped the people I was playing I stopped using it because the games became unfun due to the experience difference between the two opponents. For me it's not fun to be on either side of a blowout and I think it's very easy for huge blowouts to be the case, with how in depth 40k can be, so in the end, I think it's more about finding the right opponents than anything. For what my opinion is worth anyway. Thanks again for the video, it was great!
Here’s the thing tho: No one said you have to play the current edition rules. If you want to play 4th Edition or stick to 9th edition, that’s up to you. You don’t have to learn all the new rules every time unless you play tournament outside of your group. Don’t let that stop you from playing the game the way you want.
I think you've just encapsulated what I've been feeling and trying to understand/quantify for years and put it into words that I could actually process. This is exactly me. I love the lore, I love the models and painting and hanging out with friends but trying to keep up with or understand enough to be able to play with any understanding of why x does y is just beyond me these days.
Thank you so much for finally putting my feelings of 40k into a video!
For a lot of theses reasons, ive switched to playing a lot of the GW specialist games and I haven't looked back!
I humbly prefer to take the backseat and just focus on Killteam. Smaller scale, little yet action filled battles, and simple to grasp rules that fit in 2 pages I can just download as A4 pages for free. Yeah, I miss the entire point of massive armies clashing, but I get to make each and every single one of my have their own little bits of personality.
And better yet, the future dream of getting a set of new Space Marine and Skaven models and having my own little rat marine chapter becomes much simpler when it's 6 figures to work on and not 30!
Hi Brent, I love this video!
Here's the best part: you haven't connected with it, and THAT IS OKAY!
You find what you love in the hobby. If you want to wargame your way, you do that.
I may be biased as I want more OPR videos from you... but it is still okay for a game to not be for you :) We're all happy that you love painting, and you bring us joy with that. Thank you!
OPR is soooo much easier to prep for hehehe. core rules + your rules + your opponent's "book" is MAYBE 15 pages, totally doable.
@@GoobertownHobbies completely!
I’m playing an event in a few weeks, and we each have to bring army lists for our opponents… and it will take 5 minutes to read, tops!
We get enjoyment from your enjoyment, thanks for the great videos (and if you want to make more OPR, I’m sure we will enjoy that too!)
Never Started Playing only tried a starterbox, even there i got frustrated.
You made a very good mention by saying no one would play it with tokens/Standees, for me thats enough to know why i never should start!
If a game is mechanicly not fun, it almost never will be fun however it is packaged
Brent - every point you make in this video is extremely valid criticism that echoes my experience with warhammer and other wargames perfectly. If GW can't get YOU of all people (who have a long nostalgic connection with the game, are surrounded on a daily basis by gamers and gaming products, and who's literal job is to paint minis on youtube) to enjoy their game, then that is NOT ON YOU. They have had decades of time, millions of dollars, and countless opportunities to prove that their game is worth playing. If you can't bring yourself to enjoy it, then that is the designer's fault, not yours. By all means, keep collecting the minis and painting them if it makes you happy. But don't feel like you owe the game another shot until they reach out to YOU - through advertising or some public marketing campaign - to show that they have made significant changes to make the game better for folks at your level. Find something else you enjoy doing more with your time, and do that instead!
Gods above I felt this so hard!
My group and I got back into 40k in the twilight months of 9th, and during that period played a lot of games. I actually enjoyed 9th a bunch, likely because we were in that honeymoon phase and playing frequently enough to know the rules.
Then 10th came along and I've not enjoyed a single match, to the point where I just stopped going to game night, which compounds the issue because then you find yourself one balance data slate behind, then two, then when you think you might play again it's like you have to relearn the game all over again.
For you last point about LOS blocking terrain; I was looking through some old White Dwarf magazines from 2003 at the weekend and they had a 40k battle report in there and I was amazed by how little terrain was on the board and how great the armies looked all deployed in the open and charging across the battlefield at each other, rather than blocked up in blobs behind L shaped tournament ruins.
I think all of that together is why right now I'm much more interested in the Old World than 40k. Because it's a revival of a previously dead system being run by the specialist games team, I don't think we can expect edition updates every 3 years. Looking at the Middle Earth game for comparison, that got it's last major rulebook update in 2018, which is a really nice length of time to get really familiar with the rules.
I got into Warhammer late (Just a few years ago in my 30's) and I have to say this is what keeps me away from Warhammer proper. Constant data slates and erratas, rules updates, changes, etc. in a system that's only going to exist for 3 years is absurd. No one except tourney sweats and kids have the time or energy to keep track of all this stuff, and it makes the game less fun when you buy a rules book and a month later it's outdated and a year and a half later it's obsolete. I've stuck with Kill Team, which has the exact same problem but at a much lower cost of entry and time sink, got a few Combat Patrols for Combat Patrol which only requires a box of minis and a single page download, and I've gravitated towards Horus Heresy for my big games (even though no one plays it where I live, it's still nice to have an army and some hardcovers for something).
Somewhere down the line of the editions 40k got sucked into a death spiral of more and more lethal shooting compensated for by more and more prevalent terrain. They even made some noises about realizing the problem and lowering lethality in 10th...only to have that turn out to be a total joke.
@@assistantref5084 I can tell you exactly how that started. Its a bit of a rant, but it'll help people understand how we got to the current situation. The trigger of the 40k arms race began in 5th edition.
In early 2000's around 3rd/4th ed era the Internet had become widely available and the online gaming communities had really taken off. GW wanted to get in on that market, so started making changes to the game that would appeal to those people. Its where the 'tournament metagame' concept really kicked off for 40k, as that had already been well established in competitive online gaming communities. I'd been playing events since 3rd, but the whole 'that guy/hardcore netlist' thing was far less common back then, with most people content to rock up, roll dice and have beers. GW's new direction kicked off in 5th, where they began aggressively marketing towards the younger teen players rather than older players (despite the fact the average gamer age at the time was 27). It worked and that online attitude quickly found its way into 40k tournaments, becoming hyper competitive. Online forums quickly changed to a high focus on discussing what the biggest power combos were and how each new book release would affect the game meta as a whole.
The second half of this was GW also deciding to start slow rolling elements of the old 4th ed apocalypse expansion into regular 40k across the following 4 editions (flyers in 5th, fortifications in late 5th/6th, allies and super heavies in 6th, formations in 7th and finally stratagems in 8th).
And thanks to GW's codex release schedule where army books were released roughly 4 months apart and each army had to wait for a 3-4 year cycle for an update (or in some cases far longer), the roll-out was absolutely terrible.
For example, Imperial factions got their flyers very early in 5th, whilst many other Xenos factions did not get their own flyers or even units able to counter said enemy flyers until well into 6th edition.
However, I personally consider the introduction of Imperial Knights in 6th edition as the moment which well and truly destroyed the old game balance forever. ). Their stats were so different and often far harder to kill than almost all other vehicles at the time (partly due to their invulnerable saves, which made it easier to kill a land raider or monolith than a knight despite the slightly lower armour values).
From their inception knight armies were effectively playing an entirely different mode of 40k than everyone other faction, but despite that every other army now needed a counter for them. By this I mean that Knights vs Knight games are usually fun as they have matched internal balance/power level, but I rarely see any knight vs non-knight faction games that were fun for the non-knight player.
The tournament scene really felt the blow, as the 'meta' was completely upended, armies now needing to be built around the whole question of "can you kill or at least stall a knight?"
For a while some armies had virtually no answer for knights, Tyanids being prime among those, as right up until the end of 7th they utterly lacked any ranged anti tank weapons able to reliably bring one down at range, whilst all the big monsters that could potentially kill a knight in melee also had lower initiative than the knights, meaning the knights would strike first and hard enough to probably kill your tyranid monster outright before it even got the chance to attack unless the knight completely fluffed their dice rolls.
7th ed formations were another step too far, with the marine Gladius Strike force being among the first to drop early in 7th, allowing marine players access to free transports. The OP combo was taking 12 Razorbacks with heavy bolters which was approximately 840 points worth of units, thus allowing marine players to effectively field a 2840 point army in a standard 2000 points game. Aside from the transports being a rather tough wall of armour with not shabby firepower, all of them also had objective secured, so could really screw over other armies on the objective game.
As typical of GW over the course of the edition some factions got almost entirely duds for their formations whilst others like the Eldar were so disgustingly broken that other armies just couldn't compete - even the 2800 point marine army regularly lost to them.
Game lethality also peaked here, as it was this edition where the game fully crossed the line into Alpha strike territory, where players could use shenanigans with reserves and turn 1/2 deep strike along with overwhelming firepower to effectively cripple their opponent beyond recovery on turn 1 with almost no chance for their opponent to react or respond.
8th ed was supposed to be a reset for all this. It failed utterly but for different reasons. It got rid of some of the more broken elements of earlier editions, but at the same time, between stratagems, warlord traits, relics and multiple detachments, the rules bloat became so bad that keeping track of things just became impossible. Broken combos popped up everywhere, constant shifting of the meta with every new release or update, and with so many item/combo/army rule interactions to keep track of, there was absolutely no hope of ever balancing the game with the existing points based system. By 9th GW had stopped trying.
10th ed was again another reboot. Which again, failed to resolve the issues. But I'd argue widely succeeded in GW's eyes, as by forcing the 9th edition 'power level' style system on us over the older points system, they still have the same problems, but there is now far less work required on their end to fix them by repricing whole unit entries rather than trying to accurately cost every little bit of wargear.
They won't ever be going back to the old way.
Also, their business model is now firmly based on the exploitative idea of "fear of missing out". Limited run early releases to capitalize on interest and drum up sales, then slowly roll out occasional top ups after a lengthy waiting period, so customers have even greater incentive's to go for those earlier sales. It works too well for them to change it.
In fact, it works so well they could even drop the first two major codex releases of the new 10th edition with more than half their respective ranges out of stock, a situation I personally find completely insane for many reasons. Yet not only did they not get extreme backlash, many people fought over what little was available. Only a larger established company like GW could ever hope to get away with that and survive.
@@wisecrack4545 I was put of 40k between 6-8th edition so missed a lot of that period, but a lot of what you're saying here makes sense.
I was a forum mod back in the 5th edition days and I remember how common list building discussions grew to be in that edition.
And I totally agree about the skew knights had on the game. I think the moment our local meta died is when one player decided to buy a knight. It immediately shifted everyone's attitudes towards list building and things never recovered.
I agree with so much of what you say in this video.
I started building a 40K Ork (well, more of a Grot) army some time ago and, because I'm both a slow painter and have plenty of other things to do besides, it took me some time to get enough models painted ready for a game.
And then the rules changed for a second time!
So, I've kind of been put off playing 40K because of the pace of change. I'll probably stick with smaller skirmish games from now on.
Too fast! Slow down! That's how I feel for sure :-)
4:04 Man, that well thumbed codex with the splitting spine and goofy looking models brings back memories. I started collecting Dark Eldar when I was like 15, only a year or two before they refreshed the whole model line!
honestly i appreciate the lore of 40k and the cool detail on the models the most. been in the hobby since december and i still haven’t played a proper game 😅 the minis are what i was drawn to.
beeni the hobbie on and off 20 years , still haven't played a game lol
Loved the video. Only got into 40k a bit over a year ago. Played 9th, 10th, & OPR 3.0 thus far. And everything you voiced is how I think I & many others feel.
I honestly think there needs to be more games like you are describing. I hope to be involved in a building a game like that one day.
Dude! I loved this video!
I know ZERO about 40k wargaming and I think that made it even more funnier to me.
I legit laughed out loud listening to your tone.
Keep on the good work my friend!
It wasn't the Backstreetboys, it was Nsync. Man get your 40k lore strait, it is shameful ...
I am with you 100%! Any game that takes longer to learn than to play has zero appeal to me. Too many rules choke gameplay. Special rules honestly, should be in a deck of cards that people can pull from when certain conditions are met. Like if you roll more than 50% fails, you can use one of your finite number of special rules to pull a card to change fortune. In stark contrast to reading an encyclopedia-sized rule book and either being forced to remember or pause the game to look something up. That is zero fun for the opposition.
I have no interest in learning the grillions of rules in 40k...that and the fact that I have no friends so it is pointless for me!
I feel similarly. Things got a lot better for me when I started playing Kill Team instead! I've heard great things about One Page Rules too. My husband and I are currently figuring out how we can play through Crusade: Pariah Nexus using OPR or Kill Team. If you try either of those games, please make a video on them!
Glad to know I am not alone in getting grumpy with the constant rule changes. I do see many players that enjoy the constant updates so I know it has its place. I had a single 9th edition game after having last played 5th edition. It disappoints me they have messed with so much and it is still an I go you go turn for the entire army. I see 10th edition is now out too. Old grumpy sounds. On the up side Warhamer the old world is out and the changes are small and mostly good. I would still like it if it was my unit goes then your unit goes like One page rules. Saves people getting bored and doom scrolling on their phones.
This is the reason why I moved from w40k to Bloodbowl. Much more casual, fast and easy to understand. Still awesome minis!
Thanks for this video. I think it was probably what I needed to hear. Like yourself I have tried repeatedly to enjoy 40k because friends play it, but just failed every time and wasn’t really sure what it was that was holding me back. This has answered so many questions I had and has given me a sense of tranquility and peace of mind. I think it’s time for me to let go of trying to enjoy 40k. It’s just not for me.
Thanks for opening my eyes.
I'm glad you brought up OPR. I don't play either game but I would love to watch you paint their models.
I've painted a bunch of the saurian starhost, they're great!
The people demand more! (Obviously the RUclips algorithm says otherwise).
Right there with you Brent. With all the long winded and complicated rule sets, its like being trapped in a room with a gang of accountants and lawyers. 40k is just a soul crushing experience and physically draining to play. Im a much bigger fan of the smaller and simpler skirmish games
This is a great video and captures what I believe to be the essence of the idea and the anticipation of playing the game is better than the actual playing of the game.
I love everything in this video, from the army painter, to explaining exactly how i feel about 40k
Same feels from a different perspective.
I’ve always preferred 2nd ed 40k. I used to accept it as just nostalgia for the edition that I played the most and was most excited for new minis and such.
But now in my mid-40s, I’ve realized that my fondness is more for how relatively small the game was. There were only about 11-12 codexes, if you count Angels of Death as 2 and include the late edition Sisters codex and Necrons WD list.
Plus the size of the armies. A typical Marine army in the first years of that edition tended to follow the rules of 2ish - IE 1-3 characters, 1-3 squads, 1-3 support elements like dreads and tanks.
When I played WHFB 5th Ed, I thought Undead would be my army as I loved the minis. But I hated the summoning mechanic as it made it feel like the core experience of any game was just shuffling models on and off the table.
I feel the same about modern 40k. You start with these huge armies and the game is designed to immediately begin culling down models and units.
2nd, on the other hand, on a bigger table with smaller and slower armies, in a standard 4 turn game you’d have limited shooting the first turn and often no close combat until turn 3 at the earliest.
I know Kill Team exists, but I genuinely wish GW would release a “small scale” 40k that returned to the RT/2nd Ed era scale. Bigger than skirmish but much smaller than the current version. I feel like GW either dismissed or doesn’t appreciate the value of tactical movement as part of gameplay and the gaming experience. They seem to sacrifice everything for the sole element of removing enemy models from play.
Could just play 2nd ed.?
This really makes me appreciate that the only tabletop game I play, Battletech, has only really had minor errata over the past 20 years. Sure, I haven't kept up with some of the new tech added to it, but those are just a matter of a few additional rules for movement largely specific to whatever unit is using it.
100% agree with your entire sentiment. I have not tried to play 40k, it is so daunting. I watched a few videos about how to play and quickly decided that OPR was such a better option, with such a lower barrier to entry, and so much lower cost. I watched your OPR game of Saurian Starhost vs Demons and it seemed like you were both having fun. Watching How to play/battle reports from Warboss Fitz has also gotten me closer to actually trying it out.
I love how your voice is so soothing and there is no background music/noise edited in. Kinda feels like i'm watching a relaxing meditation video lol. Nice vibe.
Awesome video as usual
I completely understand your frustrations, that was me when i first started playing but it's really not that hard to learn if you're playing with an honest helpful person.
At this point in my life, I don't want to play any game that refreshes editions more frequently than once a decade.
Right?? 3 years used to sound like a long time... but it's really not!
Pretty much its the yearly Madden Football/FIFA problem, where it makes the game too much about development releasing new product than making the game better.
Maybe battletech could be a thing for you then.
I agree with you completely about 9th edition. Me and my friends felt overwhelmed with the 9th ed rules, and we swaped to onepage rules its way more fun. But when 10th edition came out we gave it a try and loved it way more! P.S. core rules and indexes are free on warhammer comunity
how long would it take someone to learn the game from zero in tenth edition?
@@AdoringAdmireri mean it depends of how many games are you playing. More you play faster you learn. But in beginning start learning basic like how to move, shoot etc. then start adding like detachemnt rules then strategems and other stuff. Me and my friend started learning by playing 300pts battles with only datacards and army rule then next time we added detachemnt rule and strategems. And weapons have special rules like sustained hits, lethal hits, etc. for those we made a little cheat sheet that explains rules for them and it helped a lot. Learning is more fun if you are learning along side friend and you will make a lot of mistakes and misremember a lot of rules but that is the process of learning. Most important thing is that you have fun!
@@whynotusepaper468I dont even have somebody to play with unfortunately. It sucks.
I agree with this video a lot, it took me about 3 years to understand the general rules of the game (changing from 8th-9th) then I took a break and rejoined during tenth and it’s still a lot to learn. Every new army facing is a different surprise and worry it’s just overwhelming
Brent,
You nailed it, and I could not have said it better. Warhammer 40k, Warhammer Fantasy Battle, and Bolt Action(WW2 for Warhammer players) all have a dice rolling and cheese factor that drives me away, no mater how many times I try.
Sticking to Battletech (you can wing it still with a 40 year old rulebook), and Chain of Command, also uses same rulebook.
Tired of it all changing, every 3 years. Just done with GW.
Chain of Command is my favorite. Every rule set that Too Fat Lardies makes is excellent!