This is how church music manipulates you
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2024
- Church music is just emotional manipulation. I would know.
Why am I talking about this? 00:29
Why do people sing together? 01:42
Who is really in control? 04:12
Why does this work so well? 05:42
How does it work? 06:56
Who gets affected most? 07:51
I do not own or profit from copyrighted content.
Music by Lee Rosevere.
@Faith_Free_
To my (much appreciated) christian viewers: I try my best to give a cordial and thoughtful response to each of your comments that invite honest dialogue. Since this has become increasingly repetitive, I no longer always have the time or interest to tailor individual responses to otherwise deserving commenters as I once did. If you happen to be interested, I address my personal take on some of your FAQs here:
1 - Scope: What you just watched is nothing more or less than a 10 minute video describing the emotional manipulation tactics used by worship music. It is a quick, high-level explanation of how basic human psychology allows for the manufacturing of spiritual experiences. The misconception that I consider this video to be an exhaustive or comprehensive debunking of christian theology or biblical historicity - or that I ever intended it to serve that purpose - is not true. It is not an argument for big bang cosmology or biological evolution. It is not attempting to disprove god (perhaps only aspects the holy spirit to some extent). It is not the reason I'm an atheist. The video literally doesn’t even make the argument that christianity is false. My personal journey out of faith wasn’t a flippant decision to throw the baby out with the bathwater just because I took issue with musical worship as described here. It was a complicated and painful involuntary process of coming to the conclusion that much like worship, the supernatural and historical claims of the bible seem to be much more adequately and much more reasonably explained through simple natural means or psychological biases, and are not well-supported by compelling empirical evidence in reality (see point #6).
2 - Intentional Deception: Some seem to consider this an admission or accusation that the manipulation I describe is done intentionally, particularly by those with a platform and by extension something to gain. I don’t believe this is often the case, and would go as far as to say I know that it wasn’t for myself and my former friends. We sincerely believed what we were selling, and humility was always an utmost priority. We constantly prayed to be selfless vehicles for the lord’s will. Megachurches in particular get a bad wrap, but as an insider to the “industry” and someone who has been behind closed doors with celebrity christians, I believe very few in church leadership roles are terrible people who are out to get you. Narcissism and spiritual abuse are absolutely a systemic problem in churches, but for every scumbag prosperity gospel televangelist, there are dozens of genuine local and megachurch staff earning a very modest living through what they consider genuine servitude to their communities. In my opinion, they are victims in their own right. I mention in my opening that I still lead worship “today”, but I should clarify that was true four years ago when I posted the video shortly after deconverting. That period of “faking it” had nothing to do with deception, but was only an unfortunate logistical necessity. As you might imagine it would for anyone in my position, the process of leaving the church completely destroyed my life as I knew it (see point #5), and was a complicated and messy process that I couldn’t make in one clean break. At the time, I also admittedly thought that it made my story a bit more interesting from a creative standpoint, and was a good example of how church leaders can and often do have serious doubts or leave their faith, while people in their churches just like you have no way to even tell the difference.
3 - Vapid Platitudes: One thing that the video apparently does not seem to drive home to christian viewers is that I was a deeply committed believer for something like twenty years, with about half of that time working professionally for one of the largest, trendiest music ministries on earth. I find it strange when people hear me explain this and then immediately proceed to quote some of the most overused verses, cliches and bumpersticker-theology one-liners at me as if somehow these are ideas I’ve never even heard before. These are typically designed to terminate critical thought while demonstrating some profound truth-bomb to people who don’t quite understand “real christianity” (see point #4). It may be hard to conceptualize how a non-believer could already understand quite well the true meaning of worship or what it means to really follow Christ, or how “its not about X, it’s really about Y!”, but I do, because I used to use them myself. Just a few short years ago I wholeheartedly believed all of them, preached them, and taught devotions and bible studies about them. But ultimately, this empty rhetoric is nothing more than self-impressed spiritual junk food, and does not do a single thing to demonstrate whether the belief system is true or not.
4 - “True Christianity”: Though I do not reference or endorse virtually anything whatsoever regarding actual doctrine in this video, many have argued that the worship experience I describe is antithetical to “true” christianity, often criticizing what we might call the modern commercialization of western church culture and lamenting over how it has lost its way. As the video might suggest, I have a certain appreciation for this line of thought, though I do consider it important to keep in perspective that there are countless active and ever-evolving denominations of bible-believing christianity. If I were to attempt to criticize only that which directly applies to every single believer’s personal faith, there wouldn’t be anything left to even criticize. No matter which particular flavor of the faith you might consider “true christianity”, the fact of the matter is that the musical process I describe is currently the most popular and by far the most influential model for what corporate worship looks like or aspires to be in any given protestant gathering in America. It is the industry standard - most representative of what most worship resembles to the most christians possible. After all, it’s fair to say that if you wanted to effectively critique the broader movement of religious skepticism to a general audience who subscribes to it is some way, you would probably critique the published work of someone like Carl Sagan before you would critique a random RUclips video made by someone like me. That said, I think whether it’s traditional hymns, a backyard acoustic guitar, or Gregorian chants, any approach to musical worship can be accurately described as being reliant on the general themes and techniques explored in this video. Hypnotic ambiance, sensationalized lyrical imagery, repetitive chanting, emotional priming, or any other posture of artistically submitting oneself to a higher power inevitably compromises our judgement and leaves us vulnerable to exploitation. That’s just how psychology works. I’m no stranger to the sort of appeal to elitism frequently seen from orthodoxy or reformed tradition, but no one among them is ever able to demonstrate how their Holy Spirit might manifest its presence in a meaningfully distinguishable way from the same man-made experiences of the average charismatic pentecostal. So I’d be be happy to critique worship as it relates to the christianity you do believe in, but this is often a fruitless conversation with anyone who defines themself more in terms of what type of christianity they don’t.
5 - Apologetics: I know exactly what it feels like to “know” with absolute 100% certainty that you belong to Jesus, holding blessed assurance that you could never possibly leave the faith. So with the caveat that this thought exercise is purely hypothetical, try your best to imagine what your life might look like if you were to wake up tomorrow thoroughly convinced that christianity is not true. Think in terms of how much you would have to lose and how little would you have to gain by following your strange new convictions, completely alone, into this unfamiliar worldview you've been conditioned to view as morally bankrupt, close-minded, and incompatible with transcendent god-given values. Think of the confusion and panic: how could this have happened, and what should you do now? Or who could you turn to, and what would they think? This was my reality. Only a few short years ago, absolutely everything about my life revolved around christianity, both in my private faith and on a very public platform. Maybe you can find a way to appreciate that walking away from christianity cost me my job, my home, my relationship with my family, my entire social life, and the only support system I've ever known, Jesus himself very much included. All that to say: this traumatic experience is often an intense motivator for devouring apologetics resources, in desperation and hope that they might help you stay comfortably within the fold, to a degree that few believers could even begin to relate to. I don't think nearly enough christians take that into consideration when they make certain assumptions about leavers. Instead, it’s often insinuated that I just didn’t know my stuff. If that is what you need to believe about me in order to discredit my perspective, I get it, but that isn’t the truth. I did the work. To this day, years later, I still consume apologetics in some capacity on a nearly daily basis simply because I find philosophy of religion fascinating, and I like to think I’m a much more open-minded person now that I have abandoned dogmatic brand-loyalty required by faith. Off the top of my head, I could name more professional christian apologists at this point than I could name members of my own family. At risk of sounding arrogant, when christians leave talking points from entry-level apologetics in my comment section, I’m generally not thinking about them as a refreshing new perspective that I’m not already intimately familiar with, I’m more likely to be poking holes in their presentation style with the thought that I could have argued their point more effectively myself. When they suggest classics or authors, it’s always more of the same. In the experience of people like me, you can not and will not ever be seen as valid in your reasons for simply changing your mind in the eyes of a believer, only objectified as being one C.S. Lewis book away from enthusiastically returning to the fold. Trust me, if it were really that simple, I’d still be a christian. To someone who already believes, these arguments might seem like undeniable proof. The muslims, orthodox jews, and mormons certainly think theirs are too. If you’ve never heard any, I’d encourage a quick listen. Prepare to be unimpressed, but also to notice some striking and uncomfortable similarities to your favorite apologist in the ways they argue. The understanding you will undoubtedly feel that their material couldn’t possibly convince anyone who didn’t already have a deep, culturally indoctrinated need to believe in one of the other false religions is exactly how I now feel about the arguments for christianity. From the outside, it is vague and inconclusive philosophical speculation or anonymous, secondhand historical hearsay at best, intentionally deceptive pseudoscience at worst - but generally just a bunch of overstated ad-hoc rationalizations not meant for convincing skeptics outside their target audience, but for reassuring the assured that their doubts have easily-digestible answers from intelligent academics who like to believe they have anything more substantive to cling to besides their own emotional ties to defending a god who seemingly can’t be bothered to just show up and speak for himself.
6 - Evidence: I can only speak with authority on my relevant area of expertise (see point #1), and I didn’t post a video like this one so that christians could come debate evolutionary biology or first century roman history with a musician. As a non-expert enthusiast, I try to educate myself on the methodology, research, and academic consensus of people who are both qualified and dedicated to spending their lives understanding what is true in their particular field of study. This is important because whenever biblical christianity teaches theological claims, it is also making testable truth claims about the nature of reality as it applies to physics, geology, biology, history, chemistry, psychology, etc.. It sets a precedent that if the events of the Bible are in fact true, we should reasonably expect to specifically find certain corroborating evidence, as well as an absence of conflicting evidence. Religious practice is generally focused much less on this idea than the personal application of spiritual truths, but evidence is the only part we are able to investigate. I find that for the average christian, including my former self, it is very easy to listen to a sermon or evangelist casually mention something like “all archeological evidence vindicates that the Bible is true”, and confidently take his word for it without substantial demonstration. It is much more difficult and less spiritually fulfilling to actually take it upon yourself to investigate the research of real archeology as it applies, for example, to something like the exodus of Egypt, which despite centuries of all the religiously motivated excavation in the world, has a truly damning lack of any compelling or reputable historic evidence of any kind. If you really look into contemporary science, no matter which discipline you start from, the overwhelming majority of people who actually study this stuff for a living (which is to say, not your pastor) do not agree that reality can be reconciled with a literal interpretation of the Bible. A global flood both could not, and, more importantly, did not, ever happen. Virgin women do not reproduce. Humans evolved from a common ancestor with all life on earth, not an incestuous single family created from dust. There is zero controversy about these statements in the scientific community. And they don’t just flash their credentials and expect you to take it on their authority, they demonstrate actual research and empirical data to let the evidence speak for itself. They are committed to learning, not an ideology. I’m well aware that there are pseudoscientific propaganda research facilities such as Answers in Genesis or the Discovery Institute, where fringe evangelical scientists can come to work, signing a statement of faith that their personal beliefs and published work are contractually obligated to vindicate conservative christian fundamentalism no matter what. But when groups start with a presupposed conclusion, then work backward to twist and massage the data to make it fit by any means necessary, they are not following the scientific method, they are profiting off of misrepresenting the facts to their impressionable audience. This is not how you discover true things, this is how you rationalize believing whatever you want to believe whether it is true or not. If, much like a flat-earther, you seem think your google search or Kent Hovind DVD has managed to falsify evolutionary biology with something that all of the smartest scientists in the world somehow missed, far be it from me to discourage you from getting it peer-reviewed. I’d be the first to change my mind and congratulate you on your Nobel prize. Until then, it’s just another conspiracy theory, and I’m willing to bet my life savings that despite being an otherwise intelligent person, you fell victim to the dunning-kreuger effect on a topic you’re not actually educated in. It happens to the best of us, but changing your mind when better evidence presents itself is indeed a virtue.
History is not objectively testable in the same sense as the hard sciences, so the resurrection lives in a technically-unfalsifiable gray area which I now consider to work a bit unfairly in its favor. The typical narrative presented in a church setting is something like this: the four gospels were all written by the living eyewitnesses from which they each take their namesake, whom, along with the other apostles, chose to be martyred rather than spared by recanting the faith, what they would have known to be a lie; Jesus’s empty tomb was verified at the time and that he then appeared to 500 eyewitnesses before ascending. The truth is much messier than that. We have 4 anonymous accounts, each written a full generation or more after the supposed events, with conflicting details and no historical citations. We have Paul’s creed, the only first-person claim in existence of experiencing a risen Jesus. We have quality accounts of no more than a few apostolic martyrdoms, and zero reason to believe that denouncing the name of Jesus would have spared them from roman execution. Rather than take my word for it, consider referencing evangelical christian scholars like Dr. Sean McDowell or Dr. Mike Licona who both do an admirable job of not overstating their case on this point. We have a small handful of historical sources from antiquity briefly referencing what the early church believed (not the alleged events themselves) and apart from that, zero extra-biblical accounts of the life and ministry of Jesus. No names of the 500, no verified empty tomb, and no surviving original manuscripts to bolster whatever flimsy account can be stitched together from the pieces. Nothing about the available evidence is any more difficult to explain under naturalism than the start of every other religion you deem false: a really old book written by pre-scientific superstitious zealots says some ordinary stuff that probably happened, and also says some supernatural stuff that probably didn’t. I don’t have room to do much more than scratch the surface here, and I’m not laboring under the delusion that a RUclips comment will convince you the evidence for the resurrection is as pathetic as I think it is, I’ll just compromise and admit that it is every bit as good as the evidence for Joseph Smith’s golden plates of mormonism.
7 - Conversion: I make a broad generalization that adult converts not indoctrinated as children only become christians during circumstances of personal desperation. I stand by this being true in the overwhelming majority of cases, but I don’t believe that no one has ever come to belief primarily because of evidence or argumentation. If you fit that description, I’m happy to take your word for it. Feel free to share your story. I don’t get into it in the video (see point #1), but there are only two ideas here that I push back on. The first is that these types of conversions are a significant sample size. If you’re an apologetics nerd like I am (see point #5), please understand that we are a relatively small, irrelevant corner of the internet in the context of 21st century global religious culture. Most christians don’t know or care even a little bit about the things that you do, they just love Jesus. If you were to ask a devout christian at random about the minimal facts or Kalam cosmological argument, they would have no clue what you are even talking about. For what it’s worth, I believe an outspoken ex-christian would be significantly more likely to (see point #5), but these have little if anything to do with initial religious conversions for the most part. There is a good reason why evangelism and apologetics look almost nothing alike: they are two different approaches for two different purposes, and I think it is more than fair to say that this wouldn’t be the case nearly as much if the evidence alone had a track record of convincing anyone who didn’t already have emotional ties or value proposition toward christian faith. The second is the popular narrative that any intellectually honest inquiry into the facts will inevitably lead to acceptance of christianity. The quintessential pop-level “Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel for example is a particularly egregious offender. Rather than let the facts speak for themselves, dramatic testimonies often lean into crafting a self-satisfied narrative about how undeniable the evidence is to anyone who isn’t a miserable self-destructive naturalist willfully rejecting it for dishonest motives (see point #10). I can't claim to know their stories better than they do, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent. This rhetoric just tends to come across as a slightly more sophisticated version of a corny chain email or gods-not-dead-style propaganda film scene where an 18 year old kid walks into a tenured philosophy professor's lecture, presents one basic classical argument for god that would have almost certainly been included a few weeks into the syllabus of that very class, and the atheist professor is left speechless while all the other students stand up and clap. This type of thing is crafted to reassure the faithful, but it just isn't all that compelling to anyone who doesn't already believe, and in many cases isn’t even intended to be. If nothing else, even the sheer amount of success and attention that these stories receive from the Church speaks volumes to how incredibly uncommon they are, which is the real point I intended to make.
8 - The Bible: many comments accuse either certain entire demographics of christianity, or specifically myself, of reliance on sensationalism over a proper focus on the Bible. As a christian, it really was disheartening to see how many among us were lukewarm cultural church attendees with little knowledge of scripture or true sacrificial commitment Monday-Saturday. These were some of the people we most committed to ministering to, and quite the opposite of the way I lived out my faith. The well-worn pages of the Bible sitting behind me right now as I type this are covered in my notes, highlights, prayers, and tear-stains. It is next to my bible textbook from my bible college. This video doesn’t focus on the Bible (see point #1), but that doesn’t mean I didn’t. I took too long to realize this, but being well-versed in what the Bible says is not at all the same thing as having good reasons to believe that any of those claims are true.
9 - Salvation: It comes as no surprise that the oldest trick in the book is to claim that I was never truly saved in the first place. I understand why you might think that because I used to say it about other people as well. But let’s not just regurgitate cliches here (see point #3), let’s actually unpack what you’re admitting. I confessed with my mouth that Jesus is lord and believed in my heart that he rose from the dead. I sincerely confessed and repented of my sins, accepting his death on the cross as the only possible atonement for this transgression, trusting him with my life. Not out of legalistic obligation, but out of gratitude, sanctification, and pursuit of abundant life, I then was baptized, joined the local church, tithed my income, served in ministry, studied the word, obeyed the law, abstained from sex until marriage, evangelized the gospel, discipled younger believers, and even led others in a prayer for salvation. None of these works were what saved me, but they were an outward expression of my inner regeneration; the fruit that I bore which others would know me by, just like your bible says. Baselessly asserting my insincerity as well as dismissing an entire two-decade span of everything I demonstrably believed, obeyed, sacrificed, studied, prayed over, and worked for in the name of the very same Jesus you love is not an argument that works in favor of christianity, because even if I was never truly “saved”, I sure as hell thought I was. So did everyone I knew. That’s the whole point: my intimate personal relationship with Jesus was ultimately just a false illusion happening inside my own imagination, but trust me when I say that nobody was fooled by it more so than I was. How then can anyone (including you) claim to know for sure that they are a “true christian” short of dying without ever changing their mind? Literally no possible metric, belief, declaration, or work can satisfy this question because ex-christians like me met all of them. If I could have met every criteria, holding to the same 100% certainty of my salvation that you hold now, but I was completely wrong, how on earth could you possibly know whether or not you’re wrong too? I’m an atheist today is because I believe that you are.
10 - Seeking/Finding: I’m often encouraged to simply "seek" Jesus as if this is something I never thought to do as a committed believer who was certain I’d already found him, and also stubbornly refused to do as a frantic doubter when the complete destruction of my entire life as I knew it hinged on my ability to see him reveal himself (see point #5). I know what it feels like to sit completely alone apart from my bible, pleading for a revelation. I know what it feels like to stand on a stage in front of a zealous congregation, weeping as I subconsciously beg god to allow me to believe the words coming out of my own mouth, to believe he even exists - even if not for my own sake, then at least for the people I’m leading who aren’t guaranteed to walk through the church doors and hear authentic evangelism ever again. But real life isn’t like a sermon illustration, it’s a complicated web of different experiences and ideas from people who may well disagree with what you consider absolute truth for perfectly valid reasons (see point #7). If points 1-9 do not convince you that I earnestly sought the risen Jesus with all of my heart, nothing will, and that’s ok. I’ve come to terms with the fact that cultural biases and religious tribalism commit us to misunderstanding and discrediting the lived experience of our perceived out-group.
This is an abridged summary of my current views, which I hope you find to be informative, if not necessarily agreeable. If you think I’m wrong or misguided, I have nothing if not admiration for your willingness to engage with what I hope are quality ideas from “the other side”. Thanks for your time.
**DISCLAIMER: Please don’t respond directly to these pinned comments, as it is in thread form to accommodate length, and any replies which disrupt proper format flow may unfortunately need to be deleted for sake of organization.
Thanks for this video- I'm a Christian but have come to hate hyper-emotionalism and emotional manipulation in church and calling it a spiritual encounter or 'God's presence.' I didn't become a Christian during a hard time, but through thinking it through once I'd heard the gospel and looked at the Bible for myself. I was alone in my room. In the last twenty four years I've read a lot and always sought truth and understanding. In the last couple of years I've studied preterism and it has given my already solid faith deeper roots and more confirmation than I ever believed possible. Everything in the Bible makes SO much sense now and seems so coherent, and history confirming Jesus' prophecies with everything that happened in 70AD has just been life changing for me.
looking at the bible made you believe in god more? Actually reading all of the text is what basically sealed my faith as a non-believer, I’m interested to know what made you believe.
Amen
@mariekejae13 I think it's an understanding how it all actually goes. if you just read the Bible as it is it can admittedly seem like there are a lot of problems. but when you look at it with the history and understanding of Hebrew culture as well as the cultures at the time, it makes a lot more sense. One thing that I got stuck on was the apostles. They are recorded in secular history and were very real people period they also all willingly died a martyr's death period why would they do that for something they knew was a lie, assuming that was the case.
@@jonathanbormann5077 People will die for things they get emotionally attached to, even if they objectively aren't true.
@@lemonzing234 a lie that you yourself know to be that, and perpetuate? Especially the harsh deaths that they were subjected to? I think not.
This video hits you hard. Despite not agreeing on some things theologically, it is true that the modern american church has manipulated worship in a way that promotes self and money.
These very questions that you pose have been tearing at my soul the last several years. Thank you for talking your realities.
It seems like modern evangelicalism is a twisted version of the true Body of Christ and people who were deeply involved with the manipulative aspects of it are perhaps over correcting a bit.
As Shawn Mullins says, “theirs no tax on Jesus.” It’s true
Roy D. Mercer?
I'm here a few years after this comment. Have you found any kind of peace with this? I'm struggling with it myself.
20 years in church, almost 5 as a worship leader. When i leaved it, all of this became so, so clear.
I'm a church musician and I want to quit.
Why???
Because as a church musician not only its the most entertaining spot in church where your on the spotlight but its also a place where satan once manipulated heavenly music.
Gifts and callings come without repentance. Just because I play well doesn't mean my heart is pure.
Same here.✌️
Thats very admirable that you recognised that you put yourself in the spotlight and your motives where not right. So does that mean playing music as just one aspect of worshipping is bad for everyone? What about those who do not play music, should they not be inspired to sing to God? Worship is not just musical its a surrendering of ones self to God in obedience and living according to His Word. Its a heart issue.😢
left*
Thank you for this video, and for sharing your testimony.
I am a Christian, and I am sorry that you lost your faith in this journey, but I do appreciate you sharing the thoughts you've had. I also feel that there is emotional manipulation in many contemporary church services. I think that if God is true then He is great enough to stand on His own, without 'helping God out' with moody lighting, emotionally-straining music and charismatic, lilting preaching.
This seems to be the style of our times, but the points you made are interesting and helpful. I hope that other Christians would at least agree that we should always be open to correction as we imperfectly seek to express our faith.
Appreciate the friendly feedback and definitely came to similar conclusions back when I first began to doubt and question Christianity, though obviously with a different outcome. I was always taught that God choosing to work through sinners like me rather than standing on his own was a blessing for our good. But every other false religion could also make that claim to explain away the necessity of proven manipulation tactics or other human intervention, so I was still left empty when looking for real evidence that I wasn't just tricking myself into believing in a god who didn't exist, just as they had done. I'd be interested to hear about how god was able to pass that sort of test from your perspective.
All music can be manipulative, think of secular music used at campaign rallies. There is definitely an influence that music exudes, and it isn't surprising that this modern worship comes under scrutiny.
Beautiful statement
Former worship leader now atheist myself. This is a fantastic piece my friend. Thanks for sharing this
Yep, here too, and I agree. Well done.
Just because this type of manipulation exists doesnt mean God doesnt exist. The bible predicts this type of thing would happen. Atheists actually help to prove Bible prophecy. Thank you.
@@phaxad Classic circular logic. Sigh...
@@phaxad "not believing in god proves god exists"... good one bud
@@phaxad so, that's how your logical sense works? Really feel sorry for you and your poor critical- thinking
Really interesting video and you touch on some of the very things that made modern church and “the formula” so frustrating. I’m still a Christian, but I see through the emotional manipulation and have called it out to others. I was told the Gospel at a young age and I believed with the faith of a child. I trusted that God loved me and I read the Bible and actively was involved in my local church. I’d say I became a Christian though in junior high. I chose to make that faith something I really trusted as opposed to something that I mainly had trusted because my family did too.
I definitely hear your points you make and they are some of the very things that infuriate me about what church/christianity has turned into.
When it comes to the Gospel though it is out of need but it’s not simply an emotional need. I think the hands you see go up in a “worship setting” are more of a group mentality and chosen out of comfort rather than need.
I have so many questions about the whole atheism thing but can’t really go through them in text, they’re more of in person type of conversations but just curious what your understanding of The Gospel? I ask because I think that many modern churches are more interested in moralistic deism than what Jesus talked about in Scripture.
My other question for you is how you define what is true? Is it absolute or relative and depending on your stance on that in terms of your faith in atheism, what is the meaning to people’s existence?
Great video btw, I loved hearing your thoughts and like I said I think you made some absolutely valid points although I disagree with you on there being a God.
Glad you liked this and I appreciate your thoughts as well. Seems like we had pretty similar upbringings and already agree on the manipulation stuff. For your question about my understanding of the gospel, it's obviously something that has changed. I used to believe that they were actual history of a real person who was literally god in the flesh - performed miracles, lived a sinless life, was executed on a roman cross, rose from the dead, etc.. I believed anyone could accept his atonement for their sin by grace through faith, and that this was the only pathway to salvation, and that I had a personal relationship with jesus after having done so. I believed the jesus of the bible spent most of his time with sinners or helping the needy while condemning the self-righteousness of the pharisees, and just was generally a personality that many of today's christians wouldn't recognize if he was standing right next to them. My next video that I'm almost ready to post is about how I was a "real" christian back then, so you might be interested because it will go into greater detail. But now I more or less believe that the gospels do say those things, but that the evidence points to them not being accurately or reliably true. Truth is defined as that which is in accordance with reality. Philosophically it can be tricky to speak in absolutes, but I do think that truth is objective, not relative. I also think the more useful question is probably to ask what method we should use to determine whether something is true. You mentioned me having faith in atheism, but the great thing about atheism is that it does not require any faith, and usually recognizes that faith is not a reliable way to assess whether something is true. Unlike truth, purpose (when referring to a human life) is definitionally subjective, so I'd argue that it's whatever they choose it to be for themselves and ultimately exists only in a conceptual sense. But feel free to clarify if I'm not answering what you meant by the question.
@@tylerleeking I really appreciate you responding back to me and I can tell you're a very thoughtful and compassionate guy who has thought things out for a number of years. It sounds like you understand the Gospel, which sadly in many churches today, they simply teach a different gospel or a watered down version of it where it is more about accepting a savior because of comfort or popularity within the "christian culture" and sadly that version of jesus looks more like a moral self help guide to get someone through hard times.
With regard to you whatever evidence you're saying points to them not being true, I guess I would need to understand more and I hope you talk about that in your next video as I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. I think that faith is more complex than that word seems to imply. I've spoken with some people who think it's blind belief not based or grounded in anything and if there's not complete evidence, then it's stupid to believe or trust something in faith. My point in making the comment about having faith in atheism, or that there is no god or intelligent design, is because when you look at our world I think it takes more faith to believe there isn't a god, than believing there is. The fingerprints of intelligent design are throughout all creation, in our dna strands and that fact that there is so much complexity in our universe, that we have seasons, that we have the laws of nature show me that there is no way that that many coincidences even over trillions of years would produce the consistency of the world we live in and sustain it. So to say there isn't a god, I would say that that is a statement of faith since it cannot be proved either. Maybe I'm wrong in the way I'm defining faith, I'm no philosopher. I think faith also contains doubts too. I see all throughout the Bible, people of faith but also having tremendous doubt in times.
The point I'm making about truth and even morality or purpose is who is to say what is true ultimately? One person may say it is not okay to murder, but another may say that is totally okay. Who is right or are both right since they're living out their individual morals or purposes. And if it is wrong to infringe on another persons well being, who establishes that's right? I hope that makes sense what I'm getting at.
Anyway, I'm not really arguing with you, I have no desire to prove I'm right or anything, but I do feel your frustrations with what you talked about in this video and as much as I disagree with atheism, I realize that everyone kinda has to figure out life for themselves. I just hate knowing you knew the Gospel and decided it wasn't enough or something, or maybe the other things or people pushed you away from your faith. Maybe this is simply a phase and you're still figuring out what you believe, my hope is that you would really see who Jesus is again, but that's really between you and God. I just care enough about you to tell you, I hear you, you have valid arguments that I agree with and regardless of what you believe about God, I have faith that He loves you. The Bible and the Gospel isn't about us, but it is for us and in knowing God, we bring glory to Him, and reap the blessings of that relationship simply because of His grace alone.
@@Kdubb815 No problem, I enjoy the friendly and open conversation. We may in fact be using different definitions of faith, as you said. I’d argue that while faith doesn’t necessarily have to be completely blind or baseless, the word itself must at the very least imply that a belief isn’t supported by fully sufficient evidence - otherwise why bother calling it faith in the first place? The way I see it, faith is the weakest position to hold because a belief ceases to be based on faith as soon as it is substantiated by convincing evidence. You can have sufficient reason to believe something is true, or you can have faith, but you can’t really have both. While monotheism requires faith, as a skeptic I do my best to never believe any claim on faith because I only want to believe things that are true. This means that when someone says an invisible god created the universe or that Jesus performed supernatural miracles, I can’t believe them until they demonstrate convincing reasons why this is true. That’s all atheism really is, and I assume you already feel essentially the same way about Zeus or Mohammad. If you’re interested, look into “Russell’s Teapot”, “god of the gaps” and “the burden of proof” for the problem with non-falsifiable claims and why inability to disprove something is not a reason to believe it. On truth - no one gets to decide what is true because truth does not come from authority, it’s discovered by observing reality and testing hypotheses. That’s what science does. It can explain things like DNA and seasons, no faith required. For questions science can’t fully explain yet, it takes zero faith to admit that I don’t know the answer, but it took quite a bit when I used to pretend that I did know. You’ve touched on more topics here than I can fit a response to in one comment but hopefully those thoughts makes sense on faith - the moral argument is one of my favorites that I’ll definitely cover at some point.
Backstage Atheist like I said you’re probably smarter with breaking things down than I am. What about the archaeological evidence proving the Bible to be true about a number of things, or even the prophecies in the Bible itself that the Dead Sea scrolls were dated and found to be written way before Jesus and yet the Psalm written by David that tell of Jesus’ death and resurrection were to come in the way that they did. Daniel 9 is another chapter where the birth of Jesus was prophesied about. There is evidence for a number of things and those can’t be discounted.
Just curious if you’ve read any CS Lewis? He was a hard pressed atheist for many years and then became a Christian. Have you listened to Ravi Zacharias and his debates with atheists and agnostics? I’m not an expert in debate or apologetics by any means. Just curious if you’ve ever listened to their opinions on a number of things.
This is a side note but I think it’s awesome you’re a skeptic. I admire fellow people who wrestle with stuff and test things. I try to do the same and although we have differing views and it may be hard to understand one another it’s always interesting to hear. And you’ve been super respectful too which is cool, I hope that I’ve been the same to you and your views. At the end of the day I think we both want the same thing...truth
@@Kdubb815 It’s definitely all about pursuit of truth, I like that you take that approach. Archeological evidence is something that hurt rather than helped when attempting to hold on to my faith, soI’m definitely interested if you’ve got sources for anything substantial there. The obvious caveat being that the Bible could be correctly representing any number of things in a historical context without those findings having any relevance to christian theology or the supernatural. For example, I’ve been to the real Kings Cross station in London, but clearly that does nothing to prove that the Hogwarts express ever actually left from platform 9 3/4. There’s a similar problem with appeals to prophecy: every fortune cookie or horoscope is purposely written using language that's just vague enough so that you could shoehorn virtually any personal circumstance into the narrative in hindsight and make it fit. Our brains do this so well that many people are convinced that astrology is actually real even though it isn't. It’s sort of the whole analogy about throwing a dart and then drawing a bullseye wherever it lands. We can’t do this, but even if we could show that every prophecy was truly referencing Jesus and he fulfilled all of them to at least some degree, that’s sort of what you would expect from the religious scribes who wrote the gospels since they were crafting the narrative with those specific prophecies in mind. That seems the more likely explanation to me, and distorting the canon to fit the familiar predictions also serves as an explanation for a lot of the internal inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies from the gospels such as the birth story.
I’m familiar with Lewis and some of his more popular ideas on Jesus, though apart from Narnia I’ve only ever read a few bits and pieces of Mere Christianity and Screwtape firsthand. RZ was not in any of the debates I’ve listened to but I recognize the name - what’s his best material?
As a former church pianist/organist/music director, I can relate to this, 100%.
You got yourself a subscriber.
I actually took just the oposite direction that you described in the beginning of your vid. I grew up as the son of a pastor, but didn't believe in the things my father taught me. I considered myself an agnostic, even tho I wouldn't say it out loud because I really respected my father and knew some people would bash on him for that. When I turned 16, I finally decided to join the debate of wether there was or there wasn't a God. Talked to some people, read a few books on it, including Descartes, William Lane Craig, C. S. Lewis and Saint Thomas Aquinus, also read some of Stephen Hawkins and a little Richard Dawkins. I was really close to my philosophy teacher back in school, so he helped me out on reading those people. After a few months, I became convinced that there is a God, so I was a theist, but even then, I didn't consider myself a christian. So, for me, there was a God, but I wasn't certain of which one was the real so-called God. Later in that year, I felt encouraged to read the Bible by myself, then, after 2/3 months, I finally repent and believed the Gospel (and I still believe it).
Some of the arguments from those intelectuals, like Lane Craig, Descartes and Thomas Aquinus, really helped me to discard many so-called "gods" as plausible options for a Creator, since there was some serious ontological problems with those. That made it easier for me to accept Yahweh as the only true God.
Anyway, I thank you for your video. I am, currently, writing a video talking about this same topic and I feel just the same as you described, which means, christianity nowadays is purely emotional. I am really different from my parents, in my theology, I consider myself a real traditionalist, which means I despise these modern services. I despise the constant repetition and instrumental work on modern christian music, because I know that those 3 chords played over and over again in the keyboard, added by the same verse being said again and again by the people, in the middle of a dark or dim-lighted room, affect the way those people see their sorroundings. When I became a christian, I was alone in my room, reading a 2000 y/o book with no music on the background and no preacher to tell me what to think about. And it was beautiful, that's why I still believe to this day and have a really strong faith in what I confess. My sister used to be in the worship ministry back in my church, she was the one to explain to me how MD was used to direct worship, during service. I was really upset right away and it took some years for my sister to finally realise all these problems with modern worship. Till then, I was called a "puritan", a "fundamentalist", a "radical", a "pharisee" and all those related stuff. Yes, you are right: there is some elements on "worship" music that are really meant to manipulate you, even tho I believe that the people who wrote those songs weren't trying to do so. Actually, there are some SERIOUS ericksonian hypnoteraphy technics used in modern day "worship". Psychology plays a big role in modern day "worship" and it makes me want to puke. Of course, as a musician myself, we all know that every song makes you feel a certain way, and that's actually good and I believe that God intends it to be so. But modern "worship" is just all over your face, when atempting to make you feel a specific way. That's why I stick with hymns and even some gregorian chants.
@@fabinhobighetti You're in the minority with that type of experience so I appreciate you sharing. Would love to see the video as well - let me know if there's anything I could do to help with it.
@@fabinhobighetti Fascinating testimony. Why after coming to the conclusion that some god must exist, you studied the Bible first? Have you ever wondered if, during your questioning period, if you had picked up the Koran and read it diligently for 3-4 months, would you have been convinced to become a Muslim?
@@fabinhobighetti idk if you still use this account or not but if so i would love to hear more about your story and how you came to the conclusion of christianity. i am currently looking into all of this stuff myself and am having trouble coming to a solid conclusion for any side. again, i'd love to hear your story if you'd be willing to take the time
I never feel connected to God through worship music... in fact I'm so bored by it that I time the songs on a stopwatch to see how long each song is. But the church itself I go to is still a second family to me with the people there. Where do I get my spiritual connections? Out in the desert when I'm observing the stars...
That’s the best place for it
I'm not religious, but I have had borderline religious experiences looking up at the night sky.
Any professional hypnotist will tell you that there is a certain percentage of the population that is immune to hypnotism. Maybe you are that lucky 1%!
My churchmates before were bunch of good people but they didn't feel like a family to me and I never felt connected to them. Maybe because I felt awkward when I'm around them because I know in myself that I'm not on the same boat as them, and it's hard to pretend. It's difficult for me to distant myself from attending church because my family is a diehard christiand and I don't know how would they react if I speak up about my perspective and views. I once told them about my views for a short minute but all I received was shouting "you're going to hell and you're worse than a criminal!". See??
I remember what a boon the “raindrop” synth sound was to the altar or offering calls of the charismatic churches of the late-80’s - 90’s. In 2003, I left the church after becoming aware of the manipulative and peer pressure aspects of which you speak. But although I did question my faith for a bit, I did not lose it.
I was a worship leader for seven years,I was in the music team and I've experienced it all,I have done it all.Honestly what you said here is true,as a Musical person I know this.
One problem with this worship music,its takes your worry and pain,but it's shortlived,after all the hype,all the hurt and all the pschological underlying is still there.
Because of how long I've done it,I was aware of what songs that pull people in,what songs lead people in high emotions and ecstasy.What words to say to convict people. And get this was not doing this maliciously I was doing what do it because I wanted people to connect to God at a more spiritual level. I subconsciously did this without me knowing it.
And the repetitive high bridges did it all.
Later when I was slowly deconstructing my faith and what I believed.This was one of the hardest parts of my faith that was so hard to let go.
But once i realized that none of it was real and it didn't help my reality much,I choose to deal with reality.
Worship music was an escape when I didn't want to deal with my problems, when i didn't want to deal with people and all mental health crisis.
Just my 2 cents bro, god will deal with your pain outside of worship session. (Like he did mine)
He revealed to me young experiences that I have forgotten and showed me how it affected me growing up. He also allowed me be around wisdom people who will show you the ropes.
But it all started when I found a community that was honest open and vulnerable.
I was in church for 10 years before I found this community (after moving to another church) and I must say I never was able to find freedom until I did.
We need a culture of no condemnation, wholeness and wisdom. And unfortunately not every community has that.
I guess you'll might be able to find that outside of church but really nothing comes close to a personal relationship with Jesus. I hope you find it some day bro!
@@TheAeonleon thank you for your response, I'm glad you healed and you are okay,my journey still ongoing I'll see where it leads
@@wamae755 the way you described it makes it seems like a drug.
@@tenor-haute-contreI'm just giving my experience and how it felt like,it was like some sort of a drug,which can run to..to feel better
It's painful to read a lot of these comments. People walking away from God because of other people is one of the most prominent problems within the Church. I wish we could just look above
One of the best informative videos ever about modern worship sings a.k.a CCM. Thanks for making the video. Every Christian need to see this and by the way, this whole thing you described here is not Christianity at all.
I stopped playing piano in my church a few months ago because of the song lyrics, and quit attending altogether. It was all about manipulation. Creating the mindsets that would get the people to commit their time and money to the church. "Trust" "Obey" "Be a follower". Add to that all the metaphors that put people into the state of imagination and awe. Primed them for the preachers suggestions. It was hypnosis and I couldn't stand the fact that my talents could be aiding in manipulation.--- Backstory: I became enamored by Christianity right after I stopped drinking and was sober after about 10 years of heavy partying. After 4-5 years, once the religious "high" wore off and I started looking at things with a clear head, I couldn't see past the smoke being blown by the religious leaders. They are so full of it. It was like watching the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. What a joke. God needs our money. The creator of this universe, and everything in it, needs at least 10% of our income. GTFO here preacher
Thanks for sharing - always good to meet people who can relate. I've now finished the process of fully walking away as well which is why this channel has been on hiatus for a while.
Any solid pastor will tell you that God actually doesn’t need your money. He asks for it so He can show you how He can bless you if you remain obedient, because we can’t do it on our own. We’re a broken species. It’s not about a religious high. It’s about being honest about your faults and trusting God to save you. What people fail to realize is that we’re not the good guys. Look at the state of the world. If most people were inherently good, it’s wouldn’t be like this. That’s why we need a savior bro
@@Marshall1026 I used to think that sin was a good explanation for how the world is. It kind of makes sense because people seem inherently selfish. But evolution provides a much better explanation for why people are the way they are. There are even evolutionary reasons why people help one another. Not everything about Christianity is incorrect, that's why people fall for it - it's a mix of truth and fiction. It feels good to do good sometimes, and things like "don't worship money" and "don't be self-righteous like the Pharisees" those things make sense to us. The problem with trusting God to save you is if God doesn't exist, then no one will actually be helping you when you pray. I see a lot of people in bad situations who only pray and don't do anything else... and guess what, they really do suffer and they are fed false hope by preachers. They give their money, have too many kids, and then end up stressed with money problems because God doesn't provide for them. I.e. the cost of believing in Christianity is high if it's false. And if you do your due diligence and research thoroughly, the arguments for Christianity are incredibly flimsy and don't stand up.
Roman's 11:29 this is why I want to quit and study Gods word.
@@falalala125 so what falsity is there with Jesus & following Him?
I agree so hard with all of this. My deconversion was sealed by attending a private christian university. As a music major, you literally learn these techniques in a goddamn classroom setting. It's all theater.
Theatre is correct. My church pulled so many dramatic and theatrical manipulation techniques and tricks every Sunday. It took me years until I was fed up enough to just leave.
You were never converted to begin with. And when you stand before God, you will be responsible for your sin and your unbelief. You will be judged, found guilty, and condemned. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
@@TheJpep2424 🤣🤣🤣 I could kick Jesus' ass and God can suck my brown eye.
@@TheJpep2424 👏
So, uh... care to share any of those techniques? Third-rate composers like me want to know!
As a former worship leader, this is so true
Yeah and isn’t that sad? 😕
Ditto
I’m an Exvangelical Worship pastor and yes you nailed it on what worship services are all about and how they work. I’m totally happy I deconstructed and your video confirms it. Thanks so much.
I’m that guy whose life was good, was an adult, and converted through belief. Not even in a church setting. I know it’s rare, but it happens.
@@ScribbleNuts there were various reasons at the time, the primary of which then was probably how this made sense of the world I saw. I hadn’t really looked much into various religions back then.
Since then, I have looked more into many things. But the thing which probably keeps me here, aside from experiences, would be the historical inquiry into the resurrection as an actual event in time, based on standard historiography.
I’m not a western Christian. I can pretty clearly identify any of those core beliefs as having begun in the sixteenth century. I’m Orthodox, and can trace these beliefs to the apostles pretty clearly.
One huge difference is that of emotionalism, which is clearly present and well explained in this video, and actual historical Christian spirituality, which cannot be attained in three songs. It’s a long journey. And a painful one.
My church was watching the show Love on Netflix it helped more then the damn church ever has. A bunch of crazy people doing crazy things and being shit heads and all too loving. Idk brought me closer to healing. 🤷♀️ In nature you can find God, a bug could have all the damn answers for crying out loud lol
@@annmarie6870
I’m sorry your experiences with those people was so bad.
@@thiloyoung5484 my brother 🤝☦
You were an adult? 😄
My mom who was a longtime atheist became a christian after her new boyfriend introduced her to a worship church. She wanted me to come along one day. I realized how manipulative it is after one minute of being there.
I am an atheist and this will not change. She is now throwing around all her words of faith and it is hard for me to get used to it.
Great content bro! Coming from an orthodox Christian we have liturgy none of this nonsense. My dad would always tell me it’s the music manipulation in church. Took me 5 years in the Charismatic Movement and my dads words from his grave ringing in my ears finally see it. Anyway I love Jesus Christ, and the Bible says I’m to worship him in spirit and truth, and historically, pre reformation Jesus has always been worshiped through liturgy. Thanks big bro for exposing this 👍
I went through a phase of looking in to Orthodoxy, and Orthodox music is so beautiful. The lord is at work in the Orthodox Church, and I have so much love and respect for my Orthodox brothers. ☦️
I wasn't a worship leader but I remember the feeling of being in the audience and on top of already feeling worthless as a teen and full of anxiety, this music worked like hypnosis for me and this video made so much. But even hearing that little bit of 'alter call' music brought back that dark place all over again.
It's one way of keeping people in a cult, keeping them addicted to that feeling of euphoria when they are worshipping.
Out there in the real world you wouldn't let someone call you a worthless human and nothing without them. God (though he doesn't exist) and his followers are no different.
This is not to say that there aren't nice Christian people out there, but denying the damage it has done to those of us who have left the faith or are still suffering in it is wrong..and completely condescending.
I caught the link for this video on reddit and sorry about getting carried away in the comments but also thank you for making this video!!
Thank you for sharing your story! Happy that you could get out of there :)
I'm currently struggling to get out of church too, so thanks a lot again for sharing your story
I don’t disregard the side of Christianity that has hurt people. We can look at the crusades for that matter. There are some really bad churches out there and some really good ones. The thing that stands out the most though is how God is represented throughout the church. You have the churches that say you must believe or you’ll go to hell, or the ones that bring in as many numbers as they can and never tell the truth. It’s about the balance between grace and truth that’s most important and I love Ray Comfort at Living Waters (you can check out his channel) and the way he shares the Gospel. At the end of the day, you’re interacting with people and not Jesus. This really is about the relationship between you and Him and that’s why prayer and reading is so important. Jesus really did resurrect from the dead historically, so it’s now up to you to develop a relationship with Him. He goes above all pastors and people at church, and I myself am going to college to be a worship pastor because of my own relationship with Jesus that wasn’t born out of emotional manipulation, but the fact that the evidence for Jesus has strengthened my faith.
This is a very interesting topic. I'm sure much you have shared is true.I can only speak for myself. I grew up in a home where religion, church was not a thing. My dad was a agnostic and he despised anything that had to do with religion, especially Christianity. In retrospect I'm glad I had the upbringing I did because I had no religious experience nor indoctrination. What I did have was a encounter with Jesus to my surprise which I am forever grateful. I was not looking for nor expecting a encounter with him but this is what I had. He revealed himself to me and there was no mistaking as to who he was. And he is REAL More real than you can imagine. No church experience, hand me down religion. The very same Jesus revealed in the gospels revealed himself to me and my life was forever changed. My prayer is that many will experience his reality just as i did.
Is there any way you could explain how he revealed himself to you?
I agree with this but it didn't make me an atheist. I've just had to step back and explore the truth in my heart.
You described hillsong perfectly. The church I used to go to had very strong ties to them.
Wait so you're saying my sensory disorders actually came in handy for once? Damn.
I used to get sensory overload like crazy at those big events, while everyone around me was feeling the Spirit. More than anything it was incredibly isolating, and drove me to tears on more than one occasion, which of course went unnoticed, because everyone around me assumed I was feeling the Spirit like they were. At the time I was just grateful they didn't pry.
I love how insightful this is, music is such an often unappreciated element of communal experiences
I’m just now seeing this vid, and I appreciate your input of this topic - more Christians need to see this!
I’m still a Christian but one of the reasons I left the church I grew up in was because of the worship music - i was turned off at how some of the music my church used was attached to near- blasphemous theology of the music’s original churches and leaders. I approached my own leaders about it and they literally told me to ignore the theology - the “worship” was more important!
I couldn’t accept that. Now, I’m unchurched, though I’m thinking about giving a more traditional church a try...
i am a singer who has been on choirs and praise teams since i was a teen. goodness gracious those songs are SOOOOOO boring, especially for singers. the accompaniment has it's own issues, but golly singing in unison and singing so low all the time and repetitive lyrics ugh...it was brain numbing.
I also still believe in God. i've been battling with whether or not i want to continue to identify as christian though because of what the meaning has become particularly in the U.S. if that's what christians are now, i don't want to be lumped in with that. i like your term "unchurched."
I wouldnt fundamentalism is never a good idea
As a former worship leader, I get a lot of this video, but it sounds like this guy has become apathetic and possibly never was in it for the right reasons.
After Covid my husband and I quit going to the church we had attended for 5+ years because we didn't want our kids to be raised in falseness. We are still currently looking for a new Church home. I encourage you to some research and for goodness STUDY THE BIBLE! Studying the Bible is one of the most important parts! If you're not doing that than you can easily be lead astray. There is enough historical evidence proving the existence of Jesus to know it's the truth. Look up Ray Adam's Archeologist sometime or read his book!
We found peace at an Independent Baptist Church who had an regular attendence of 8 people during covid, this church ultimately had to close it's doors. They sang hymns and I grew quite found of them.
Keep fighting the good fight, spread the gospel, and God bless you and yours. HE IS FAITHFUL!
I understand that some Orthodox Presbyterian churches or URCNA churches have a traditional, non-manipulative stance on worship. Maybe u could check that out. 😀
How is it going, friend? Like, with faith in practice
I am a Christian MD/Worship leader, and I agree with your takes on emotional manipulation in the church in the modern day Western world. This problem hasn't impacted my faith in God and His word, but I think it's antithetical to what the Word says and don't think it's how church should work. My love for music, community, and the truth in some of the lyrics we sing cause me to hypocritically press on in the church culture we have.
I can definitely appreciate your perspective there, and think I was probably in a similar position for a while. Recognizing something so central to my christian identity - something I was once so sure was the right thing and a service to god/helpful to the world, was actually just phony, manipulative and predatory, made me wonder what else I may have been wrong about. Once a few seeds of curiosity were planted, I committed to a deep dive into further introspection and research, and my faith did not survive.
Thank you for sharing. I once attended a church like this, and I'm so glad I stopped. The longer I attended the more inauthentic everything felt. However, I found and experienced God when I started reading the Bible at home.
I was born in a family that took me to church since I was born, didn't know other perspectives of life or even how else to live. I was also involved in worship as I learned to play instruments at a very young age and worked hard to keep up with the rest of the band. I was proud to be devout and gave almost everything to getting better at my "worship skills" hoping that God would help me reach hearts, so I learned a lot and slowly became aware of how fake it all is. I used to brush this feeling aside as to not doubt God's methods and never really thought about it until later in life, when I started reevaluating everything I thought and was taught to be true. When I became an atheist I reflected about how fake it felt but I could never really talk to anyone else about it, as all my friends are christian or believe in God's work through music, today I have to thank you for finally saying out loud what I always felt.
My family kept begging me to sing up.in front my twin and my gran mainly the only two times i did i got laughed at for trying to be cool by adding trills and what not the only other times was christian school choir i hated it and i didnt realise that i was indeed prostylatizing
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I also think you should link up with Seth Andrews @TheThinkingAtheist. Seth did an episode on this before with Grace Baldridge, and think the conversation should keep going.
Genetically Modified Skeptic brought me here.
Congratulations on being Faith Free. Great Video. Thanx.
Great video brother. I know it's been 5 years, but I'd like to encourage you to make more
I am a Christian, though I don't listen to music. Especially not CCM. I came to know Jesus without emotions as a scientist first, and learned to feel emotions again after several years. I studied hypnosis and psychology, so the effects that are mentioned in this video are absolutely true, and as a Christian, I stay away from them. There is a verse where God says, speaking to Christians, "My Name is blasphemed (spoken of with hatred) among the nations (unbelievers) because of you." I left Christianity because of so-called Christians, and have since found out that Christians are not Christ-like, which means they are not Christians. The God of the Bible and the God of the American modern church are not the same god, because Modern Christians no longer follow God.
This this this 100%!!!!
I was converted without the emotional music, in fact it was outside on my porch via a phone call.
It wasn't in a hard time of life, I was just living it but the story of Christ and his sacrifice broke me.
This is why I’m going Orthodox. No feelings or manipulation there. Just a disciplined life of faithfulness.
I respect your decisions to be atheists. Much of contemporary American Christianity is made in a sound lab somewhere in Nashville. That being said, many adults that remain in such a church system gotta eventually go beyond kindergarten. Much of the modern American church system is built for kids and young teens. Hence why there are so many 30-40 year old men with man-buns in the church.
Now, tell me about the god you don’t believe in- I probably don’t believe in that one either.
Good video! I think you had some really interesting insights, and I also tend towards skepticism when it comes to mega churches and concert like worship performances. I would say that I view a good worship service as less emotional manipulation and more of a guided meditation. Trying to make someone feel certain kinds of emotions isn't always a bad thing. Also in reference to seeing similar reactions to non religious music, I would view that as God giving the gift of music that we can connect with in all sorts of ways. That's why I think music is such an important part of worship. It's an important but also relatively easy way to connect to God directly.
Amazing how a now-reformed (biblical, old fashioned) person in myself agrees more with the outright atheist on the subject than the vast majority of the modern “church”. Something is wrong church - wake up. Praying for you sir. Only comment I’ll make is when God is sought whole-heartedly, He is absolutely undeniable. It is only when we let sin carry us away that we begin to question old feelings, thought patterns, logical reasonings we once had while our mind was being renewed. Hoping you reconsider and thanks for the video.
Hi John, thanks for sharing. If you're still interested, I address your thoughts in points 4, 10, and 7 of the comment thread pinned at the top of the video. Take care.
Support from a Christian. Worship is for submitting to the glory of God, not for gaining clouts of "believers", nor is it for gaining emotional high. Those who tries to justify themselves through worship will not be justified, only those who accept Jesus will enter the kingdom of heaven for He is the way. Glad that I found this video and I believe it's really time to call these manipulators who call themselves "Christians" out.
I didn't come to Christ because I was down and out and broken. When I put my faith in Christ it was because God revealed to me his love displayed in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
But you're right about church is using emotionally manipulative music.
Hi Sean, thanks for sharing. I've been hearing stories like yours more often lately. If you're still interested, I address this in point 7 of the comment thread pinned at the top. Take care.
7. Is missing though :(
I’ve grown up in a very Christian home but have always gone to a Methodist church with hyms.. and like actually praying in a quiet environment with other believers and my family. They do the whole “break the bread and drink wine and stuff” I felt a much more connected feeling doing a ritual than going to one of these rock Christ churches. I feel like a lot of people haven’t gone to a Methodist church and they need to have that experience since it’s much different than whatever bull crap this modern stuff is.
I've only done a little bit of work in a UMC church, but they had two completely separate buildings/services going on at the same time - one like I describe and one like you describe. Glad you enjoy your experience though.
I remember not too long ago that going to church was normal. The programs they had for kids were fun. They always had us running around. But you’re expected to grow out of that by around 13 I think. I remember being devastated. I tried to stay, but the only other option was to volunteer as a help to the kids’ pastor, which I didn’t want to obligate myself to do. So, when I went with my parents to the adult service, I never really got to experience the same feeling everyone else did. People would sing along and I would just be sitting there. I really only sang the songs I liked, as my parents would always have Christian radio, so I memorized some of the songs. Whenever I didn’t participate, like standing or singing, I would be scolded for not paying respect to the Holy Spirit and God for being here with us. So I would stand. But I still didn’t get this feeling. This allowed me the luxury to look at people. I didn’t fully realize it, but I was starting to formulate something. However, I came to the conclusion that this was really working for people. So I tried really hard to get swept up in the moment because I felt obligated to do it. Sometimes, our youth group would come together during the sermon from the head pastor, so I wouldn’t be expected to listen to their music and preaches. We would get to talk. And I genuinely enjoyed it. Even though I’m an atheist now, I really enjoyed those times. Eventually, they had to stop for unknown reasons. So I was forced to go back, with a new perspective, yet still trying to buy into it. The last time my family went to church was before the pandemic, and I had suggested it. I don’t know why, but I think I still felt an obligation to make church important to me. When we went, I didn’t feel any connection. When the pandemic hit, I remember my mother trying to force everyone to watch the online service. She scolded my sister and I for playing with our dogs while watching, and overall it was in enjoyable for everyone. I don’t even remember my mother smiling. But that’s besides the point. My mother, from what I remember observing, didn’t feel any profound connection to our pastor or what he was saying. The only difference you ask? We were isolated. The, so guess, mob mentality of it all couldn’t be recreated when no one was there. Do you remember how so many pastors got so angry and passionate about people not being at church? It’s because that is the best way to influence people into staying and donating to them. In person, you are more inclined to tithe and stay because you think you’ll be letting everyone else down. The pandemic, though so didn’t realize it, had me, and others, lose their faith in not god, but their religious figureheads. Without them, no one expects for you to be Christian.
I identify as a Christian/singer in our small choir and my thoughts are in alignment with God’s word. I do not focus on the people but rather to the Glory of God and he will reach the people.
new comments coming from Genetically Modified Skeptics channel
Great video. The song by Ghost titled "Cirice" sounds to me to be a song about manipulation in church. Heck, Cirice literally means Church in old english!
I'm a devout Christian, and although I completely disagree with a few of your points, I absolutely agree with almost all of the others. I have had so much frustration with the modern church for the last few years, one of my main issues stemming from being incredibly annoyed by christian music/worship. At first, it was just annoyance with how boring and repetitive it was, but then I attended a very large church with a huge emphasis on their amazing worship music (it was like a concert every sunday) and let me tell ya, my experience there ruined worship within the church for me for good. I could honestly write a book about my toxic experience there, but in short, the "worship" was just as you described in this video- superficial, hyper-spiritual & manipulative. I'm so sick of churches trying to "set the mood" with this cookie-cutter dreamy ambiance every 2 seconds. It's unnecessary, ingenuine and annoying. I think my biggest issue is worship music as a whole projects this idea (whether it's intentionally or not) that the only form on worship is through music, when worship is something that is completely unique to each individual. I felt guilty for most of my life for not being able to get into "worship" because I only associated it with music. I became angry with the church because no one EVER clarified that worship could be expressed in so many different ways!!! (And most still don't unfortunately). I would much rather have no music in church at all so that more focus can be put toward making some (actually) good christian music that I could enjoy on my own time.
Like I mentioned earlier, worship music is only one of many issues with the modern church. Although you addressed this issue from an atheist point of view, I still found it well thought out and informative as a christian.
I appreciate that feedback. A goal was for this to be able to resonate with christians. In a sense it is presented from an atheistic perspective as you said, though I was still doing worship professionally when I made it, and I actually only really bring up critiques that bothered me even when I was a believer. All that to say there are definitely other people on the inside who also feel disillusioned to some degree in the same way you are describing and would like to see a change. You all being more vocal about it would probably be a step in the right direction, but there are some complicated reasons why the current structure isn't well equipped for change and I'm not sure anyone even knows what that change might look like. That whole world as an industry and a "genre" has become such a niche subculture which only a few key players have any broad influence over. This is really out of necessity more than anything else, especially since there just isn't high enough demand right now for anything different.
I always taught (and was taught) that worship is a response to god, meaning it is expressed through things like prayer and obedience just as much as singing or creativity. "Worship is a lifestyle" is cliche to the point that I'm surprised you weren't familiar with it, but I guess every flavor of the faith is a bit different. I'm sure you could find plenty of sermons on this if you search for them though. Take care.
I actually visited a church with my kids where they turned the house lights red and blew dry ice smoke into the congregation during alter call. Apparently the Holy Spirit needs help in convicting people of their sins, in their opinion.
As a Christian who for years has been warning about this, I thank you for this. It should be shown to every congregation. Whether you believe this or not you have done the Lord and His Church a great service. May He bless you.
Right. There is definetly an emotional element that is carnal BUT God is SO REAL and His power makes all the difference🙏🏽
Wow, this is compelling video. Needs to have a few million views...
I’ll be honest I’ve been duped as well it took me 4 years and getting away from the church and the people I found within it who are manipulating me when I was in a really tough time then and really looking within by reflecting through the hard times I’m still going through but getting out to actually listen to god as I used to as a kid in order for me to realize that church and religion is a social construct and that people use it to manipulate and keep people coming it to keep up with there self image through manipulation and emotional abuse. I honestly have never been more free and realized through my self seeking god on my own, not through others that he has been with me when I needed him and been saved by him not by a pastor or group. It’s truly scary to think about this reality but I think most will not come to it because it’s too hard to accept but I and others have and are free from the bondage and manipulation of religion.
Welp, gonna head to Wednesday night youth group to be emotionally manipulated 😀✌
That was my youth group experience. 😑
Adult conversion? My son's father in law had his business decimated this past year because of COVID. No surprise to me that he found Jesus during his struggles. He's a nice guy; I hope he recovers.
I must express my deep admiration for your brilliance and the way you carry yourself as a true gentleman. Your commitment to enlightening others with humility truly strikes a chord with me. Anyway, as a Muslim I believe music to be Haram, meaning forbidden, and this affects approximately 200 million Muslims who refrain from worshiping God with music. If you ever have the chance, I wholeheartedly encourage you to explore the Quran. Embracing curiosity and seeking understanding are integral aspects of the learning journey, and there's nothing wrong with having doubts and questions. In fact, the Quran itself encourages pondering and contemplation, stating, "Do they not ponder it? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would find many inconsistencies."
One of my least favorite things about christianity, and there is a plethora, is the constant brow beating about how "you are nothing without God" "we are evil and can only be made good through God" "you can't do anything without God" it's so frustrating. If God was your abusive boyfriend and someone heard him saying these things to you they would be upset but for some reason when a preacher gaslights a bunch of emotionally vulnerable people its okay?
Amen! It's abusive as all heck, but "God" gets away with it because he "knows better". Sound familiar?
I agree 100%! I am victim of this, even though I was not going through hardship when I was prayed for salvation. Thanks for this bruh
I get touched even with worship in my own room. I don't need to be in church for it. In many cases I don't even need music.
I guess the hardest part of this video is knowing that even if you were in church doesn't mean you have a personal relationship with him. And that is the scariest part, you can be the pastor and still not know God personally. It's easy to get distracted by the lights and music and miss the main point.. your personal relationship with him.
Btw I came to Christ when I was not going through a tough time in life (but a teenager). Infact I had more problems after coming to Christ 😅😅 You can ask me bro!
Same. As a teenager I didn’t go through a hard time to find Christ. I saw my brokenness and sin because of people in my church who were faithful and poured into me. And then times got harder but Jesus saw me through.
I’m going to college to become a worship pastor and, honestly, this video helps. I want to be the best God wants me to be and, to me, that means understanding the “darker” side of worship music and the effect it can have. That youth group had 4 students one year give their lives to Christ at camp that wasn’t in the chapel setting, which is genuine salvation!
We need Jesus because of sin. Struggle comes from sin in the world. With Jesus we have power over sin and sin in the world. This doesn’t mean all sin in the world is gone. That’s up to the free choice of others. Btw I ’m 20 and Christ saved me out of my sins without knowing a thing about these types of churches. Thanks for bringing this to awareness. I had always felt something was going on when I would be in an environment like this. A message to evangelicals - trust Jesus and know him by what is TRUTH, do NOT trust in your heart by what you feel is true.
One of the most frequent points worship leaders bring up in "pep talks" before every service is how what we do isn't based on emotion and instead it's inspired by god.
Damn, it's like they KNOW it's all bullshit and don't want us to find out.
Once a system is developed, people raised within that system think it's entirely normal so it's entirely possible they can be self-deluding, especially if they aren't challenged somehow to take a hard look at that system. So they don't always have to knowingly be spreading bullshit, they might believe in it themselves and the self-reinforcement is needed because they saw the people before them doing it, so it's all become part of the ritual.
@@keith6706 yeah i know that was me for several years.
However it makes you wonder how many people do actually know and still play along for money or whatever...
@@46raulfull Probably a lot. The story of Marjoe Gortner is a good example. Wildly successful child revival preacher, became disillusioned at 16 when his father took off with all the money they'd raised, and went back on the preaching circuit in his early 20s, knowing it was entirely crap and doing it just for the money, did it for a few years until he had a crisis of conscience about essentially defrauding people. On what he'd decided was going to be his final tour, he arranged to be followed by a documentary film crew and gave behind-the-scenes interviews, in the manner of a magician revealing their secrets, to show how it worked. The documentary won the Oscar in 1972.
Religion is a buisness pure and simple
Fascinating and well done video! Thank you for sharing your experience and insight. This deserves way more views.
It's true that emotionally charged worship manipulates people. If I led a church, there would be no worship team. However, a person becoming a Christian in a dark time does not mean they were duped, especially if it happened outside of a church setting. Also, there are plenty of adults who grew up Christian and have remained faithful despite never having a life crisis.
I came here from Genetically Modified Sceptic. Great video, I’ll subscribe.
I despised most CCM, even as an evangelical. But some of them did convince me that I was in god’s presence (Hillsong I think). And yet I remember vividly one Spanish CCM song about human absolute wretchedness that was also one of those moments that convinced me that I had enough, time to leave. As a lover of the old hymns, I would add they can be highly manipulative as well, or used that way.
4:04
Athiest here. I do. That's how bad they got me. I just finished a half an hour cry session listening to church music. I still "feel the holy spirit" even though I understand the science behind what I'm feeling. I desperately wish I could believe again but I know too much. Despite all I learn, I can't seem to shake off all the effects of Christianity.
I am also a former worship leader from a large AoG church. Spot on.
The whole "song service" is DESIGNED to manipulate, and to stir emotions... We all know that emotional responses are always more powerful than intellectual ones, and, in fact, will override the intellect a huge majority of the time. That is the exact reason why we did the things we did, and in a certain order. Pure emotional manipulation.
Of course, I wouldn't have recognized that while I was doing it - I really believed it was just that it was "conducive to worship and heart preparation" Now I see it was all pure manipulation. And it is disgusting.
and people RARELY get saved at "altar calls" because altar calls THEMSELVES are NOT BIBLICAL. The "Anxiety Bench"
@@ProphetPX Thank you. I found "anxious bench " (which I had never heard of before) and some effects of that specific anxiety trigger... Makes perfect sense. It is also designed as a high-pressure / peer-pressure hotbox specifically aimed at manipulating people into certain emotions and behaviors... Pretty much what church leaders excel at. More disgusting manipulation of people's psyche and their very lives. Grotesque.
@@HappyHeathen-JD as a.... what??
I'm curious if you ever noticed the specific songs that were always used in worship sessions? How incredibly formulaic, overly simple and homogenous they are when far more fresh and original gospel songs exist? The way I see it, it's the musical quality taking a backseat so that total devotion to God's work can be front and center. No creativity or deviance to distract you from the real deal.
@@lucrayzor9657 BARRFFFFF
So I had a similar upbringing (just not in front of thousands lol). I disagree with your ending judgement, but SO AGREE with a lot of what you're saying! People looking for acceptance can be easily swayed to participate. Also music very much can manipulate. It sounds like you went the direction of "it's all crap because it's easily explainable why people respond". And I get it. I agree with part of this. I don't believe it's crap. I actually had a healing moment in my life and everything just means so much more through the experiences I've had that were just Him.
I think we tend to underestimate the "the narrow road". In today's time there's still a huge number of people that just go to church and pretend. I think we have all been guilty at times of this. I've found myself in a place where I have rejected "church" in general because even though I feel a genuine connection to G-d I have discerned many times where it felt like an act. I don't say that in a self righteous way, just in any situation even removing religion you can tell when people aren't being genuine. Or are doing something because they "have to".
When I played in church at first I did it because I was asked to learn bass to fill a position. I was into music already so they asked me to learn. I did and played off and on in churches until I was 27 years old (started at 14). I grew up in church, but I never really had a genuine experience with G-d, recognizably, until I was 16. Even then I was so young in it that it took years of maturing before I could look back and recognize more ways that he was moving. I'm no genius at 32, but with years of growing I have these moments outside of that group experience.
For me I have to focus on my own faith in any kind of group setting. Some of my most in tuned moments come with my mouth closed and just listening. Man, most of my singing happens alone now lol. Pouring your soul out in private.
Anywho lol. But I get what you're saying. Something most christians don't seem to get is the majority of people in churches are just as lost as the people that have nothing to do with G-d. And some of the people that really know g-d the most may not ever set foot in a church. America puts more emphasis on the building and the dinners than they do the heart and the people that are really suffering. I keep getting this more and more by the year.
The church of America is mostly dead me. It's sad because in my opinion the biggest roadblock to the great commission might just be America. We don't really get it. And what is it they say about problems? In order to solve a problem you must first recognize that you have one. I hope that G-d would move and show you what his purpose for you is and bring it to fulfillment. I don't look down on you at all for your take or your current stance. I just wish that the people in churches would really get to know Him in a way that they weren't being manipulated, and that they were really in line with his plans and purpose. The world would be so much better with G-d's love and not just man's self centered misinterpretations of what they want His love to be.
Thanks for posting this! Have a great weekend!
I really appreciate the humble, reasonable and friendly input. There is a comment thread pinned to the top of the video that clarifies a few points (primarily sections 1 & 4) about this particular topic being neither theologically comprehensive nor my primary objection to faith or christianity, if that may be of any interest to you. But, to be honest, I'm a lot more curious about this healing event you mentioned, and get the impression that it hits closer to home for you anyway. I have a few questions if that's ok:
Without me knowing any details, let's assume for the sake of argument that christianity is 100% true and that you are (probably) correct in attributing this healing moment to the God of the bible - that said, what do you think the second-best explanation might be? Even if you might think the reason is wrong and misguided, really pause and try to give it some fair and objective thought if you can. With a good answer in mind, now let's imagine if, hypothetically of course, you happened to have been born into a culture where it is a near statistical certainty that you would be a muslim right now. How likely do you think you would be to attribute this experience to something significantly different than what you do now? And, equally importantly, how likely do you think it would it be that your second-best explanation would be much different at all? What about if you were born into hindu culture, mormon culture, etc.. You see the point. We could also apply this to sensationalized/americanized spiritual experiences that are of questionable legitimacy or due to manipulation.
I don't consider this any type of total knock-down argument any more that the video is, just a bias test/thought exercise I think I owed it to myself to deeply consider much earlier in life than I eventually did. Let me know your thoughts.
God will NEVER change. Jesus is still the way salvation. Without him one is headed to hell.
I’m a young teenage skeptic, born and raised in the church. Got “saved” at 16 and truly believed everything. Slowly my skepticism grew, and i’m still currently a christian looking to deconstruct my faith in a sense. Ideally in the end i should be able to tell someone why i believe or disbelieve based on non biased facts and logic
Those who have been through the process any help, advice, and personal experience would be appreciated
Hey, I’m the creator of the video so I know what it’s like to be on both sides of the belief spectrum. First and foremost I hope you don’t feel alone in where you are at spiritually, because you definitely are not. My best advice would be to not go looking to validate any particular conclusion, but to embrace the process of examining different claims. If you go out of your way to “prove” one way of thinking over another, you are likely to succeed in a mostly superficial sense based purely on confirmation bias. Instead, try to follow the relevant evidence wherever it leads. Try to measure this based on sound scientific methodology, your own lived experience of how reality works, and the motivations behind proponents of each side. Objectivity, not ideology is what leads to truth. Best of luck to you.
@@tylerleeking Hey man I really appreciate you answering me, i’ll definitely take that into consideration with my walk and findings. You should really consider making a video talking about your deconversion story and what brought you to where you are now. I know many such as my self would love to hear that and would benefit from it
I'm still christian raised pentecostal but learning more about orthodoxy. And I can't remember the number of times someone said the Holy Spirit is here just because the beat dropped or the chorus was repeated. Had a chat with an orthodox Christian today and that's why they said they don't use music as it sure does manipulate people and there's nothing wrong with the human voice.
Worshipping God isn’t about how it makes you feel, or feeling at all. It’s simply about faith and love. Worshipping and love are actions, not really feelings. I’m sad and disgusted that so may people are “duped” or lied to and lead to believe that that was God. That wasn’t God, it was people.
The strongest criticism I have is its portrayal of this as “Christianity”. This is a recent phenomenon specifically designed to keep juveniles in the churches. Christianity has existed for nearly two millennia, and this has only recently been invented.
Quite right sir
Thank you. Very true. Athiest means "against God."
@@ifyouloveChristyouwillobeyhim Atheist: noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Against god? How can you be against something that doesn't exist?
This is exactly what the Lord opened my eyes to over the past couple of years, and it saddens and sickens me. This is proof that God does exist. His word prophecies that this would happen in the last days....people are lovers of self. Emotionalism and experience is what is being worshiped, not the Lord. True worship is a lifestyle. The Lord is real, its a narrow path, few find it.
Interesting perspective. I had a moment in church a month ago where I just completely zoned out during worship. The thought was in my head "what are we singing about here"? Lyrics are really bland and often overly romantic. You know, the "Jesus is my boyfriend" trope. As a guy, those type of songs are kinda weird.
I studied filmmaking and this video is so accurate on how I don't care for organized religion (like church). I hate how they use music to make you feel certain ways. It's predatory and very psychologically manipulating. I found it to make my depression worse at times. I'm already feeling like shit and playing music doesn't comfort me. I don't go to church anymore due to the emotional manipulation I feel at church. I do believe in God and still am considered "Christian", but despise organized religion because of being forced to go to church as a child up until I went to college. After studying filmmaking and music, I found that music and being fed what I should believe was very disheartening. Thank you for finally pointing this out.
I always knew this was a problem and this makes me so thankful to go to a church who doesn’t do this manipulation and emotionalism garbage..
Hi Gabe. If you're still interested, I address this in point 4 of the comment pinned at the top. Thanks
I'm a 15 year old worship leader of a very small church.
Do you think I ever could be where I'm at if God hadn't put me there? He's the one directing things, I'm simply following His lead. He's the one who fills my lungs with breath so that I may sing. I am simply a vessel for Him to work through.
I worship God as I do on stage in my personal day-to-day life. Leading worship is not a performance, it's a direct result of our intimacy with God.
I'm so sorry that you feel this way about worship. I pray that one day soon you'll be able to worship God again in the solitude of your room, and know the presence of God surrounding you. ❤
Hi Joy. Glad to hear you are authentic in your day to day life. I'd like to think I was too, especially at your age. The typical cliches you mention about worship being a lifestyle and a response posture toward god are concepts that I'm already very familiar with, having taught bible studies about them during my years working for one of the largest music ministries in the world. Though I now disagree theologically, I can respect that your heart is obviously in the right place with this. The question I'm more interested in is your first one, though. Let's suppose another young person told you they were in a leadership position at a very small local mosque. How is this possible without Allah guiding and directing things and breathing life into their lungs, using our friend as a vessel for His own glory? Would you say that it is possible for this person to be falsely attributing their mundane personal circumstances (like filling a job that needs filling, and feeling a sense of purpose from the faith they were born into) to a religion that ultimately isn't true. Billions of people with conflicting ideas have felt guided by god, but the overwhelming majority of them have to be wrong since they contradict most of the others. What do you think is the most reliable way to tell the difference between being guided by a god's devine plan, and simply believing that you are even though that particular god doesn't actually exist?
Well-spoken. It is my prayer that Jesus will help you maintain an active healthy relationship with Him so that you may continue to serve Him well.
@@robertogomez3698 Thank you! That means a lot to me ❤
"I am simply a vessel for Him to work through." - I hope your church doesn't demonise self-confidence and affirmation. Ideally you would have both confidence and love towards yourself and towards God.
Just a young adult's perspective on that phrase.
@@j.kaimori3848 Thank you, I truly appreciate your care, but please don't associate the things I say with my church because these things I'm talking about I learned in my own personal time with the Lord and in His Word, and I wouldn't want to accidentally misrepresent my church when I'm speaking from my own experiences. I think you may have misunderstood my meaning when I made that statement. I was refering to the verse 2 Corinthians 4:7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us." It refers to earthen vessels or jars of clay being like our natural human selves. We're not all-powerful or all-knowing. We're imperfect, yet even so God still chooses to place His treasures in us. Despite everything I've done or haven't done, God still chose to place this gift of leading worship in me. He chose to give me a heart for it, because He knew I would use what He's given me to bring Him glory. And everyone has a choice to use the gifts God gave them for themselves or for Him. But we become so much more when we choose to walk in surrender to His ways for our life. And I know that sounds almost dictative to walk in surrender like that, but it's not. It's truly freeing because you can finally be exactly who you were made to be. And God is not a Tyrant King, He is kind. And all of His ways and His thoughts towards us are loving. But He knows best when it comes to everything because He made everything and is sovereign over all. He's the Potter and we are the clay. He gets to choose how we are made and what He does or doesn't place within us. But we still have to surrender to how He wants to use us if we want Him to use us. So when I made that statement I wasn't referring to my insufficiencies, I was just trying to emphasize His sufficiency in my life. I have struggled with insecurities in the past, but that's not at all what God has for me and He's been helping me to overcome those insecurities day by day. He's given me a courage and a confidence in Him, and I just have to continue to walk in that. God doesn't place insecurity in any of us, He only places courage in all of us. But it's still up to us to choose what we surrender to. Our own insecurities and inefficiencies, or the courage He's given us and His sufficiency for us. I hope that better clears up what I meant when I made that statement! Thank you again for your care, and God bless you! ❤
Jimi Hendrix claimed he would use the music to open up the crowds mind and then preach into their subconscious
Thank you for your perspective!
It's something I've been feeling for at least the last 10 years, probably longer. I still lead the music often at my local church as well, fortunately not the kind that pulls this kind of thing...
I grew up in happy clappy modern churches and it really is just chasing experiences rather than truth. I just can't watch Bethel, Hillsong or Elevation music without cringing, they're just so often musically vapid and lyrically dull... Take away the 'holy spirit pads', the ambient guitars and the drums that all sound like they were taken from the same sample pack is just so boring. I recently went back to my home church and I could count the different chord sequences on a single hand, and that was with about 10+ songs. Just absolute garbage.
Hey :) I enjoyed your video very much although I'm a christian and I'm planning to stay christian :D you are totally right about the manipulative worship system in modern churches. I myself have been through many situations when I got emotional during worship but then when I came back home the whole experience seemed fake. I hate when they turn the lights down at church to "tune" the congregation to the "worship note". I never engage in with my emotions, I just stay in the role of an observer. I mean if I want to worship my God I don't need any special equipment or expensive sets to create worship-friendly environment. I always say - worship songs are not for us and for our feelings, they are for God. Period.
So thanks for making this video! God bless you 🤗
Well-spoken, God bless you
I wonder why god's presence need to rely on talented musicians during worship. Can't crappy or amateur musicians achieve the same goal, provided they believe in the holy spirit?
Mr Po technically yes but why would or should an unskilled person try and lead others in a song? Can someone who has no skill paint a house? Yeah but why should they? It won’t look right. It won’t sound right and is not conducive to group interaction.
If the music is bad enough, it doesn't matter what spirit they have.
When I'm alone the same songs do have effect on me. Wait nvm you said not to the same degree. You got a point 👉
Every knee will bow & every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord....
Lil Nas X is the lord you blasphemer
@@vaibhavsharma4741 AMEN lol
Its very rare that I am not emotionally moved by the worshop music when I am practicing, preparing for the songs, how could you not get emotional?
As a Christian myself and not at all atheist i agree with you....church music is manipulative and deceitful in most cases and they will indeed answer to God in judgment....God seeks true faith and worship
As a believer, I agree music can manipulative. Especially the keyboardist playing that soft melody during an alter call. Building aesthetics can have the same emotional manipulative effect. A lot of this is industry disguised as ministry. It's a false Gospel too. "I'm not good enough + life is hard = I need Jesus" is not the good news. So many who fall away were never converted by the real Gospel to begin with. Or if some good gospel seed was planted, the Parable of the Sower will explain why there never was any fruit yielded.
As a christian, I agree with many points in this video. Music is being misused in many churches today.
As an example. You and your spouse are having a romantic dinner together. There is lighting, good food and music to create a romantic atmosphere. You feel great about your relationship with your spouse. Nothing wrong with that at first instance.
But remove the good food, remove the lighting, remove the music and get back to your daily life with your spouse, how is that relationship? If your experience of your relationship with your spouse is dependend on those things, then this relationship is broken.
But if your relationship is healthy, then music, lighting and good food will only enhance what you already had. On the other hand if your relationship is lukewarm, even music and lighting won't move your hearts.
Too bad, churches abuse the power of music for their own reasons. To give people a false sense of relationship with God, based on emotions created at the moment which is not long lasting.
Well said
Unfortunately so many worship leaders fall into this trap. They step into church systems that are attractional and put the focus on the wrong things. They don't trust that the Holy Spirit can move by simply preaching from scripture authentically, so they try to create "moments." But the truth is, worship has nothing to do with music and everything to do with committing your life daily to the pursuit of a deeper relationship with Jesus. If you need worship to do that, you've definitely been manipulated. But what you need to remember is that you are specifically targeting 1st world churches, more prominently the American model, which is dead and dying more every day. But in other areas of the world, people are experiencing powerful transformation and close community with God, and they don't even have praise music as a means to "get there." What you said is true, however. We aren't enough and we all need Jesus. Thanks for shining light on this!
I hear what you're saying, but as strange or hard to believe as this might seem, there is really nothing in this comment that hasn't already come out of my own mouth countless times practically verbatim. Unfortunately so many christians fall into this trap of making dismissive assumptions where they interpret any valid criticism of church or worship as an admission that it wasn't actually real christianity, then go on to describe "true" christianity to me using the exact same cliches that I was already studying, intensely praying over, and teaching bible studies about back when I was a devoted believer. Points #2,3,4 of my comment pinned at the top go deeper if you're interested.
@@tylerleeking Never dismissed your criticism; I actually said this happens a lot in the American church. But I'm certainly suggesting that the church using worship to manipulate people doesn't signify that God isn't real. It just signifies that man is, in fact, broken. But if that is what you need to feel secure in walking away, by all means.
@@dustinsnyder3217 Right, you agreed with my criticism of corporate musical worship, but then dismissed this problem as not being representative of, or not applicable to, your particular definition of authentic worship or "true christianity" - which you have not (yet) described as anything meaningfully different at all from exactly what I used to believe, preach, and hold as my approach to worship as both a lifestyle of pursuing/obeying jesus, and a ministry calling as a musician. People do this constantly and I've already heard it so many times that it is addressed in my pinned comment, written months before yours was:
"What you just watched is nothing more or less than a 10 minute video describing the emotional manipulation tactics used by worship music. It is a quick, high-level explanation of how basic human psychology allows for the manufacturing of spiritual experiences. The misconception that I consider this video to be an exhaustive or comprehensive debunking of christian theology or biblical historicity - or that I ever intended it to serve that purpose - is not true. It is not an argument for big bang cosmology or biological evolution. It is not attempting to disprove god (perhaps only aspects the holy spirit to some extent). It is not the reason I'm an atheist. The video literally doesn’t even make the argument that christianity is false...
...Though I do not reference or endorse virtually anything whatsoever regarding actual doctrine in this video, many have argued that the worship experience I describe is antithetical to “true” christianity, often criticizing what we might call the modern commercialization of western church culture and lamenting over how it has lost its way. As the video might suggest, I have a certain appreciation for this line of thought, though I do consider it important to keep in perspective that there are countless active and ever-evolving denominations of bible-believing christianity. If I were to attempt to criticize only that which directly applies to every single believer’s personal faith, there wouldn’t be anything left to even criticize. No matter which particular flavor of the faith you might consider “true christianity”, the fact of the matter is that the musical process I describe is currently the most popular and by far the most influential model for what corporate worship looks like or aspires to be in any given protestant gathering in America. It is the industry standard - most representative of what most worship resembles to the most christians possible. After all, it’s fair to say that if you wanted to effectively critique the broader movement of religious skepticism to a general audience who subscribes to it is some way, you would probably critique the published work of someone like Carl Sagan before you would critique a random RUclips video made by someone like me. That said, I think whether it’s traditional hymns, a backyard acoustic guitar, or Gregorian chants, any approach to musical worship can be accurately described as being reliant on the general themes and techniques explored in this video. Hypnotic ambiance, sensationalized lyrical imagery, repetitive chanting, emotional priming, or any other posture of artistically submitting oneself to a higher power inevitably compromises our judgement and leaves us vulnerable to exploitation. That’s just how psychology works. I’m no stranger to the sort of appeal to elitism frequently seen from orthodoxy or reformed tradition, but no one among them is ever able to demonstrate how their Holy Spirit might manifest its presence in a meaningfully distinguishable way from the same man-made experiences of the average charismatic pentecostal. So I’d be be happy to critique worship as it relates to the christianity you do believe in, but this is often a fruitless conversation with anyone who defines themself more in terms of what type of christianity they don’t."
@@tylerleeking So here is the big signifier that what you were indoctrinated into is false...and this is only one issue, but since it is so essential to what you're referring to as "true Christianity," it serves as a fracturing point that will infect anyone's understanding of God and how He works as a whole. You say:
"but no one among them is ever able to demonstrate how their Holy Spirit might manifest its presence in a meaningfully distinguishable way from the same man-made experiences of the average charismatic pentecostal."
The problem with this rhetoric and line of thinking, is that it suggests that first, the Holy Spirit isn't present, and then all of a sudden manifests. This is Biblically inaccurate. The only time this ever happened was in Acts chapter 2. From that moment, the Holy Spirit has been permanently present. And the primary reason the Holy Spirit exists is to turn our attention towards Jesus, which Jesus explicitly points out in John 15.
So if what you believed you were doing was creating a moment for the Holy Spirit to show up, either you were being lied to or you were lying to yourself. The Holy Spirit is always present and dwells in the hearts of those who have surrendered their lives to Christ. That's why Paul says, "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." The dead is gone and then replaced with the Spirit of God, permanently.
What worship leaders and pastors are actually called to do is present the message of the Gospel. This is the primary reason they exist in ministry: present who Jesus was, what He did, and why He did what He did. This can be done through a sermon or through the progression of a worship service, among other methods. How the Spirit interacts with us from there really falls into two camps. For believers, the Holy Spirit will refocus their hearts from within, since humans are fragile and flaky and constantly lose their focus on Jesus. For non-believers, the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth and lead the heart to a place of decision. The caveat for each of these camps is that the person has to be actively seeking, because God won't forcefully convict anyone. That's why the Bible says seek and you will find multiple times.
Once a person has said yes to Jesus, the goal of their lives is NOT simply to live like Jesus lived or subscribe to a new way of life. The goal of their lives becomes the REASON Jesus died: intimate community with God, which was impossible with our sin present, because God isn't compatible with sin. It was never about getting into Heaven or getting out of Hell; it was always about having relationship and community with God. The goal isn't to make God an addition to our lives, but to invite Him to be the foundation of all of it. We're not living lives under God or for God, we're living lives WITH God.
A relationship with God isn't meant to peak when we're sobbing during Sunday morning services, retreats, conferences, etc. How impactful can that really been when we've already forgotten by the time we go to lunch? A relationship with God is meant to peak when it becomes the thing that forms how we interacts with other people, how we view ourselves, what we desire and what satisfies us, where we find our identity, where we find our peace, and where we find our purpose...among many other things.
And so I don't know you, but from your video and your comments, it feels like you were put on a pedestal, and given this massive responsibility to usher in the presence of the Holy Spirit so it could wreck the room and transform hearts, as if that were Biblically accurate or that we would ever have the power to do such a thing. And after awhile, you stepped back and recognized: this feels so fake. And so you started to view all of this from that lens, which is a massive foothold for the enemy. But, you were right. The system was and still is fake as it happens all around America and other parts of the world.
And I'll leave you alone after this, but in terms of any believer telling you that you bought the counterfeit version and missed the real thing...that comes down to this: If God is real, and Jesus is who He said he is and did what He said He was going to do, and if the Holy Spirit is present and actively moving...if all of it is real, including the life-shattering transformative resurrection power of Jesus blood...then a person who truly encounters it and is transformed by it... well they may stumble and lose focus, but there's no universe in which they turn their back and say it isn't real. If He is THAT good, then it wouldn't be possible to walk away completely after experiencing something that is better than everything else. So...then there exists two, and only really two, reasons why someone would deconstruct their faith.
1. God isn't real and they actually were just being manipulated by humans the entire time.
2. They were manipulated by humans with a false version of what God desires and actually missed the real thing.
From my limited interaction with you, you say it's the first and I say it's the second. And I don't feel any kind of negative way about you and I'm not offended or angry that you walked away and are doing what you're doing. That's your prerogative. But what I've experienced over my life with God, that didn't revolve around music, has been so good and I want everyone to have it. That's all.
It saddens me when ppl don’t believe in God. But I accept everyone and won’t ever try to force anything on anyone. It is difficult to believe in certain truths while others are unaware.
It was not that long ago that I was on the defense when someone came to me asking why I didn’t believe. I didn’t want to hear anything about it Bc my perception was wrong.
.
As a child being forced to go to church it created resentment in my heart to an extent.
What I did always know for sure is that the spiritual aspect of life is real. And I went from there.
We can always be “logical” but logic and spirit aren’t equals. You have to have knowledge of the things that go on in this world. And the spirit of discernment to not be lead to believe in well orchestrated lies.
Soon enough you all will come to see the truth
Sure dude
Does manipulation happen from bad people? Yes.
Does manipulation happen from well meaning people with bad methods? Yes.
Does that invalidate the existence of an authentic relationship with a higher power? No.
The church I attend doesn't sugar coat the Bible's message. It doesn't feed off of emotions in worship. The music is very simple and traditional. Just one singer and one piano. There's no alter calls. No emotionally driven sermons. Just simply teaching the Bible one verse at a time. There is a huge divide between mainstream "American evangelicalism" and what I would consider true Christianity.
"For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires," - 2 Timothy 4:3
I encourage anyone reading this who feels like they got duped to reapproach the gospel from a more logical perspective. Let the gospel message itself stir in you a desire to worship God and live for Him. Stop listening to emotional worship music for a bit. Read the Word. Listen to the words of Christ and of the apostles. Open your mind to think through who you are before God and what He has done on your behalf to bridge the gap between you and Him. Authentic faith doesn't need a soft piano track to make the truths found in scripture cultivate a heart change.
When you base your "faith" on feelings then it's no wonder you apostatize. But when you base Faith on the Historical Person of Christ, then you have substance (Heb.11:1-3).
I was born and raised Catholic and let's just say here when I became a teenager I really hated Church because I started realizing how robotic it was and how it just felt like a never-ending algorithm of the same programming day in Day Out week by week with always feeling bored falling asleep during the service got married to a Christian woman she's tried to get me back in the faith let's just say here nothing has worked my mind is already made up and settled
Repent
Research Catholic miracles. If you want evidence. Because the Bible was made by man. And in the 4th century.
@@Corinthians-om2mx No
I'm a former militant atheist neuroscientist, now Bible-believing Christian, but I think you're mostly on-point here. Thank you.
P.S. I do suggest reading about C.S. Lewis's conversation from atheism to Christianity, though. Perhaps also Josh McDowell's, Lee Strobel's, and J. Warner Wallace's. They were all led by logic, reason, and evidence, not emotionalism.
Thanks for sharing. I'm actually quite familiar with all four of those apologists' backgrounds, and literally already had a lewis clip open in another tab when reading your comment. Leaving the religion you built your entire life on is a traumatic experience that can often cost you absolutely everything, and this is an intense motivator for consuming apologetics to a degree few believers ever would, in hope that they will help you stay in the fold. I don't think nearly enough christians take that into consideration when they make certain assumptions about leavers. But I'll try to summarize my general take on the genre of content you refer to. JWW for example notoriously avoids publicly sharing his personal salvation testimony as it isn't relevant to the facts. While technically true, it seems like an obvious admission that his conversion had little if anything to do with the evidence in his investigation. Strobel's case for christ on the other hand intentionally leans into the I-used-to-be-a-hardcore-atheist message to a degree that comes off as highly sensationalized if not borderline dishonest in some of the creative liberties it takes. After all, his expertise is in journalism and law. Are there two fields less prone to biased interpretation or tweaking of the facts to craft a specific narrative? He also makes it clear he was a drunk, miserable, self-destructive man married to a christian woman. Like I touch on in the video about music, the overwhelming majority of adult conversions occur during personal desperation. This gives the impression that the recent convert's worst self in his darkest place is representative of all atheists, which many christians love to hear and often internalize as fact if they are too socially isolated to know better, but to me it also says that maybe his emotional ties clouded his ability to interpret the evidence without some bias. I can't claim to know their stories better than they do, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent. It just tends to come across as a slightly more sophisticated version of a chain email or gods-not-dead-style propaganda film scene where an 18 year old kid walks into a tenured philosophy professor's lecture, presents one entry-level cosmological argument for god that would have almost certainly been included a few weeks into the syllabus of that very class, and the atheist professor is left speechless while all the other students stand up and clap. This type of thing is crafted to reassure the faithful, but it just isn't all that compelling to anyone who doesn't already believe, and in some cases doesn't seem like it's even intended to be. If nothing else, even the sheer amount of success and attention that these stories receive from the Church speaks volumes to how incredibly uncommon they are. I commend taking this type of objective approach and am not trying to be unfairly dismissive of anyones's experience, especially your own, which I'm interested in if you'd like to share, I'm just explaining how someone like me sees this apologetic trope a lot of the time. I'm also not at all saying no one has ever come to faith through evidence, but when they sell books heavily implying that this is an inevitable outcome for all honest truth seekers, it's asking quite a lot for a skeptic to consider this to be anything other than, much like the apologetic argumentation itself, these men very much overstating their case.
I agree that many churches use music to manipulate the crowd and get a response it is so sad that people are swept up in the music and never lay hold of the gospel. Absolutely tragic that you came out of the Church manipulated by emotional strategies rather than transformed by the gospel of Christ. I feel sick about that.
That said, the gospel is no sham. The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to those who are being saved it is the power of God. Repent...Salvation is at hand. Jesus saves bro.
What makes you think I was never transformed by the gospel of christ? What makes you think I haven't repented? What makes you think I haven't been "saved" and preached to thousands of others to do the same, exactly as you are right now?
Having never attended the kind of church you describe, but having been exposed to the kind of music you’re talking about, I can attest to the accuracy of your analysis. As a Christian, I am extremely troubled about the emotional manipulation I’ve observed. My own conversion, as an adult, was completely outside that emotional atmosphere. I have thought through the claims of Christianity and am convinced they are true. Any emotion I experience is apart from manipulated circumstances and really does come from God; I cannot gin it up myself. And I am well acquainted with the centuries of Christian music before contemporary worship music and know that it is not, in itself, emotionally manipulative but a rich source of truth about God and salvation and Christian living. I’m sorry that you see your choice as between being emotionally manipulated and atheism.
here you hit almost all of the points I've addressed in the pinned comment, in case you're interested.
It's ALWAYS been about EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION for PROFIT and CONTROL.
SANE humans need to RUN from RELIGION, the BIBLE, CHURCH BUILDINGS, JESUS and GOD period. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Humans do not NEED religion, Jesus, buildings called churches, etc. to live a MORAL, HEALTHY, MEANINGFUL, PURPOSEFUL, PROSPEROUS and FULFILLING life on this planet. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I can't BELIEVE how many ADULTS believe they do.
I have a dream...that ONE DAY grown-ups will THINK, REASON, and BEHAVE like GROWN-UPS instead of like GULLIBLE, NAIVE CHILDREN who BELIEVE EVERYTHING they READ.
@@tylerleekingIt’s a long shot, but i’m a teenager who is applying skepticism to my faith. Any chance you’d be willing to converse with me concerning your experience and suggestions? Aside from the pinned comment. If so do you have instagram or anything of the sort?
Great video. Thanks for sharing
Great video and so important
I agree that western church "worship" can be done without a relationship with Jesus and can lead away from Him. I started a relationship with Jesus when I was young and in a good place. When I was old enough to critically evaluate why I maintain my relationship with Jesus, I was also in a good place in my life. Without a working relationship with Jesus first. I can see why any part of religion, that can be used for manipulation, could lead you to reject any call to the love of Jesus. Jesus still loves you, don't let religiosity cause you to miss that.
very good - thanks for posting
I needed to see this video right about now and I'm so glad I found it. You expressed something I've been feeling for years but was too scared to explicitly state. The realization that what you've assumed and relied upon to be true for so many years may not actually be is a scary one, and I really appreciate your thoughtful responses in the pinned comment -- especially point #5. I'm currently investigating the historicity of the resurrection which you seem to have wrestled with quite a bit. Any resources you would recommend?
Dr. Bart Ehrman of UNC Chapel Hill probably has the most extensive, or at least the most well-known catalogue of skeptical commentary on the resurrection. A lot of his books are fairly niche but he has plenty of lectures available here on youtube. Also maybe an unorthodox answer, but dive into relevant christian apologetics (licona, habermaas, mcdowel are some popular PhDs in the field) - but try your best not to indulge any sensationalized (if not distractingly long-winded) marketing rhetoric about how amazing the evidence is, and focus objectively on the actual evidence that they present. Pay close attention to the way they might phrase things: for example "we have 500 eyewitnesses" sounds a lot stronger than admitting "we have a book that says there were 500 witnesses, but no mention of who they may have been or any external way to verify or support this claim". Try not to begin with any conclusion one way or the other in mind, but just evaluate what exactly you do or don't find persuasive. An important way to minimize bias in this process is to remove the name Jesus and all the personal religious baggage that may come along with it. If you've ever attended a funeral and seen a dead body in person, or even just a memorable grave/tombstone, swap the name of that person for "Jesus" and be honest with yourself about whether an equivalent of the exact same quantity and quality of evidence we have for Jesus would genuinely convince you that this other normal person had been miraculously resurrected. It's about making sure the evidence for a claim scales to the improbable nature of that claim, in all its seeming inconsistencies with how we know the world works. "The demon-haunted world" by Carl Sagan is the standard resource for this concept. Best of luck to you.
I wish you did more videos!!
Any christians here not into worship music?
I was never musically talented enough to be part of a worship team, but I loved worship and joined the multimedia team and manned the lyrics on the big screen. I would attend the worship practice on Thursday nights if it was my week to volunteer. It was then I learned that the pastor and worship leader talked ahead of time and chose songs deliberately to match with the subject of the message that Sunday. Took me years later to eventually leave completely, but that might have been the first time I got to actually see a glimpse of the man behind the curtain.
Many of the men behind the curtain are just living out the indoctrination they recieved. It is a sad cycle but the Lord has preserved a remnant, I and out of the churches.
@@christiansmakingmusic777 How can one find out where the Lord has preserved a remnant and where they are just living out indoctrination?
@@douglaswise6797 The phrase is a figure of speech. Remember He said to Elijah, “I have yet preserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” They may be scattered some here some there. The important thing is to walk with the Lord ourselves and encourage and be encouraged by others who do the same, wherever we find them. I have not found a single church where everyone really knows and loves God, and it’s not my job to sort the wheat and the chaff.
@@christiansmakingmusic777 I can understand you don't know the hearts of every human. What I'm getting at is how do you know the Lord is indeed preserving a remnant in the first place or if everyone, no matter how sincere, are just following indoctrination?
@@douglaswise6797 you have to make some assessment based upon what the Bible says, and what the Spirit confirms. Do you know the verse, “if you do not perceive the lips of knowledge in a man flee from him”? It is easy when you ask someone and they refuse Christ up front, but many people think they really know God. If you delve into God’s word you can usually see whether they are true disciples or not. There are many many battlefronts in all of this, there are false teachings, false teachers, false brethren, and then there is also the spiritual warfare. If a person believes what the Bible has said there will be fruit and manipulation isn’t a fruit of the Spirit.
Playing music in church made me a great performer.