Discovery Enterprise Scale Revealed! - Analysis
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Main Website:
www.trekyards.com
Support Trekyards on Patreon:
/ community
Eaglemoss Link: goo.gl/rPRMcG
Discount Code: TREKYARDS for 10% off orders of $60 or more
Other RUclips Channel:
Captain Foley's Channel
/ @stuartfoleycaptainfoley
Social Media:
Main Trekyards Facebook Page:
/ trekyards
Main Fleetyards Facebook Page:
/ fleetyards
Trekyards Model Building Showcase Facebook Page:
/ 525656090901951
Team Trekyards Star Trek Online Facebook Group:
/ teamtrekyards
Star Trek Timelines (Trekyards Facebook Team Page):
/ 836643756447057
My personal head-canon is that The Borg going back in time during First Contact caused a shift in the timeline, Zefram Cochrane's contact with the Enterprise crew makes him passionate about warp theory, leading to an acceleration in technological advancement. This, in turn, leads to the founding of the warp 5 complex. Cochrane could have told Jonathan Archer's father about the experience and they decide to name the fruits of their labor Enterprise in honor of the ship from the future that saved all of their asses.
Cut to years later, NX-01 would have never launched on an exploratory mission in the pre-contact timeline. This leads to all kinds of trouble, though, since the timeline tries to correct itself as explained in J-J-Trek The Federation is still formed at the same time. there were tons of encounters and first contact events with dozens of races that they shouldn't have even known about, all the while Enterprise is taking sensor scans of all this wacky tech that we shouldn't have encountered yet, so that could explain why everything is more advanced.
By the time we reach Discovery the timeline has almost corrected itself, with the caveat of more advanced tech and Spore Drives. . . it doesn't rule out any of the spin off series, its just going to make them look a lot different.
Interesting idea. Keeps prime timeline mostly intact but explains some differences.
Until you notice that the events of first contact are referenced in Voyager a few times
This design is, honestly, dramatically better than the TOS Connie. Even as a die-hard Trek fan, I've never fallen in love with the 1701, which seems like some kind of requirement, but I like this design a lot. It deals with almost all of the awkward, clumsy 60s design decisions I had problems with, particularly the neck. I can't stand the TOS Connie neck. I also love the new nacelles, the NX callbacks are beautifully integrated, and the nacelle grills are a dramatic improvement.
I will say, I love STD's style. The show looks good, the visuals are good. I do even like the Klingon designs. The problem with STD is that all of it just doesn't fit the time period the show is set in. Enterprise at least tried to feel like a Prequel, exploring future core worlds of the Federation and future allies like they were unknowns, using buttons and analog controls on the bridge, the NX-01's interior and the uniforms felt uncomfortable and industrial, Which fits the idea of the Enterprise being a prototype. The crew was hesitant to use Transporters and the NX-01 took a while to even get decent weapons, often times they were outgunned. Essentially ENT did a better job being a prequel then STD does.
Could Discovery be a sequel to Enterprise - a series set after Star Trek: First Contact?
The size inconsistencies started with Enterprise in my opinion. No way the saucer of the 1701 is not bigger then the Enterprise from 2151 after 100 years. I'm happy everything finally has been scaled up.
Why not? Sea vessels didn't become much larger over a century. It's the technology that counts, not the size.
It's amazing how the *Excelsior still manages to look more sleek modern* and refined 30 years after its creation compared to the clunky CGI ships being created now.
Is *still* looks far more futuristic, faster, and technically more advanced.
They really did a great job with the original Excelsior in my opinion.
(Sorry Captain Stuart!)
Agreed
I don't like the Excelsior front view. The apparent lateral bulk of the secondary hull just doesn't do it for me, although superior to the bizarre side protrusions added to the Enterprise B, and don't even want to discuss the neck. The whole class seems awkward to me from certain angles. The designs prior and later are far superior, JMO.
James Aron To me the Excelsior was the culmination of Function over Form. Unlike the original or refit Enterprise, it’s big, bulky and clunky as an object to film. It has fewer angles to capture a good shot, while the Enterprise bearly had an angle that wasn’t worth filming.
I don't like the Shenzou shape or size (way too large and still larger than the reimagined connie when it was supposed to be a much older design) but the reimagined enterprise does actually fit in a lot better to the scale of the Excelsior making that look like a true natural evolution (slight increase but sleeker, secondary hull about the same volume) rather than the massive jump it was on the original connie.
Maybe the windows are for a 1 floor on the side of the saucer and the inside would look like the promenade from deep space nine.
One other good reason I could see for making the bridge functionally a lifeboat would also be the fact that would allow the bridge crew to easily remain at their stations to oversee the evacuation and then simply detach the bridge module to evacuate themselves. With a ship of that size having people collecting and disseminating relevant information to aid the evacuation process, such as the location of any sections of the ship that have to be sealed off because the environment has been compromised in order to allow the crew to plan alternate routes to the escape pods etc. So that could be a reason for doing it rather than it being a screw the crew were are out of here kind of thing lol.
As far as I am concerned the sizes got mucked up when the NX-01 had the same size saucer as the TOS Enterprise. So like Stuart said, it makes perfect sense going forward from Enterprise rather than backward from TOS.
Wow, I really appreciate all those extra renders showing the model in different situations like having a shuttlecraft and a person near it to give it real scale! BEAUTIFUL work!
Great work showing us comparisons of the actual official models and assets and rendered in a way that you won't see anywhere else except Trekyards!
Blame the time line fowl up on " First contact". Before that everything that happened was based on TOS scale.
After the Borg invasion of the 21st century, Picard's crew started the " contamination" just by being there.
The J.J.verse was altered by Spock , and Nero. The " Real times" were altered.
TOS is " Prime universe",
"Strange new worlds" , " Discovery" should be " Alternate universe" like the J.J. verse.
Can we all moved past the notion that it doesn't fit with the original cannon and just accept that it's a visual reboot. I love that trek fans are so passionate about the tiny details, i'm one of them but i'm pretty tired that we are still talking about how it doesn't fit the visual cannon. Lets move on and enjoy it for what it is.
Jam Darcy this is what I’ve been saying. It’s a show that’s over 50 years old, updating the look of things is going to be unavoidable. Let’s just accept it instead of crying “Alternate Universe!” with every visual change. It’s going to be okay.
I totally agree with you. It's unavoidable to visually reimagine something in context to what we think the future would look-like from a 2018 perspective compared to the 60's perspective. Thus, if CBS chose to make a show that takes place before or during the original series created in the 60's visually the same, it would only satisfy old fans, but not draw in new fans. To truly satisfy all fans they probably should have stayed away from making a show that is so close to the time period of the original show. However, there were a lot of things that happen during that time period fans want to see and explore in a new series. I just wish Enterprise was given 7 seasons and gave us the Romulan War and more of the lead up to the birth of the Federation.
I think people are more upset about the fact that they made no attempt to make the show consistent with any preexisting Star Trek property whatsoever.
I personally am also a little worried about the direction this show seems to be pushing the franchise in. I read somewhere "Star Wars Game of Thrones" and that seems rather accurate to me.
The key word in "visual reboot". Is "REBOOT". You don't get to choose individual characteristics to reboot. Either it's a reboot or it isn't. And the ship is much larger than TOS, so it's more than just visual.
Forget Visual Reboot,
Alternate Timeline
So now there is:
Canon Timeline (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, MOVIES)
Kelvin Timeline (JJ Movies)
Prime Timeline (ENT, DIS)
I'm surprised you didn't show this upscaled Enterprise next to the Discovery herself.
As far as scaling in STD goes, it would look a bit daft if the 1701 pulls up alongside the Disco and is tiny in comparison
The scale is only broken if you try to think of Discovery as Prime Universe. It's not. Discovery is a parallel reality with it's own history and starship scaling. That's all there is to it.
Oh look it's S C, attacking every anti-Discovery comment. What a predictable little tool you are.
It's the simplest solution, overall.
There is no doubt that this is not the TOS timeline.
This is the prime timeline we now know, these previous comments are wrong
@@weightlifting_socialist No they're not. You'd have to be brain damaged to believe Alex Kurtzman's trash has any connection to TOS.
Observation loung at front, bridge below dome and Captains office at side.
Also corridors at the side of the bridge
"You mean it's not the same size as the old constitution, why is that?"
Because Quantum
Trekyards - you make a big deal about the scale on the Discovery ships, but never talk about the elephant in the room: TOS ships weren't well thought out. Windows don't align with decks, and in many cases make TOS ships look bigger than they actually are.
So here's a challenge for: do a comparison of the TOS Enterprise and the USS Voyager. The 15 deck Voyager is bigger than the 22 deck Connie. Why? If you can, interview the man who designed it so he can explain the problem TOS created with bad scaling.
I liked the military ship comparison. In the US, The Coast Guard Cutter USCGC Bear is 82 meters long and has 100 personnel aboard. We like to imagine a certain amount of room and luxury on ships, but I think this is the result of civilian ships stressing such luxury. In TOS, the ships were more utilitarian and militaristic, and fitting hundreds of crew on a cruiser the size of the Enterprise felt 'normal.' It is only in the TNG+ eras that we suddenly expect ships to be spacious and also we now understand the benefits of automation in terms of required crew size being reduced.
I tend to to think of Abrams enterprise as visually a modern take on the 60s idea. However I do like the Discovery enterprise too! A blend of the two would be awesome! Tech wise though I look at mobile phones the better the tech gets the smaller they become! And I tend to look at the resources in Federation yes there are what 150 races working together upon Star Fleets founding I don't see more than 3 platforms being utilised even right up to Next Gen I see two ships the Galaxy and Nebula platforms and maybe a science vessel ie Nova all these other designs wouldn't be anymore than some course work while studying at the academy lol! Also 1, 3, 4 nacelles are completely pointless however I like the Prometheus but only if it were a two tier seperation assault mode!
"Bigger is better, don'cha know?"
[looks at Star Wars] Imperial class, 1600m; Executor class, 19000m; Resurgent class, 2916m
[looks at B5] Omega class, 1714m; Warlock class, 1992m; Victory class, 2990m
[looks at canon Trek] Constitution class, 289m; Galaxy class, 643m... THOSE ARE ROOKIE NUMBERS!
Well, doing more with less is the sign of advanced tech. I'd be more afraid of the organization that can destroy a star with a weapon the size of a standard torpedo over one that needs a weapon the size of a small moon to destroy a planet.
+Mark Lawrence
Sun Crusher~~
Sun Crusher is unfortunately not canon anymore thanks to the mouse....
Those are all rookie numbers. Imperial Navy, 40k
Cobra class destroy 1.6km (as in actual torpedo boat ala ww2 destroyers)
Lunar class cruiser (backbone of the fleet) 5.2km
Emperor class battleship (carrier/battleship hybrid command ship), 9km
Gloriana class Battleship, 20-30km depending on individual vessel
uUUHG!!! They kept the dimensions of the refit movie enterprise back in 1979 JUST FINE and it is still the best enterprise.
The windows on the discovery Enterprise look a lot like the windows on the Enterprise D.
The 2x3 rectangular impulse engines on the reimagined Enterprise look good. Their height is somewhat less in the Discovery episode than pictured here I believe. It looks better than the small impulse engines on the original design (one of its few weak points) and the massive ones on the Excelsior.
Since we'll never see an Excelsior class in Discovery, I don't really mind the size change. And plus, the Defiant's scale was all over the place, and we've grown to accept that.
Great model, great episode.
noluckst2 the excelsior probs is on the drawing bored, but remember the excelsior was a prototype and only just finished Star Trek search for Spock (before she was refitted again in undiscovered country) so I doubt very much we will see it although!!!! I’m expecting to see the Miranda class ? (Which I really don’t like lol) also lmao the defiants magic deck 5 lol
Oh I wouldn't be surprised if the Excelsior class is being researched (in-universe) at the time of Discovery. I fully expect a throwaway line in a novel somewhere somehow connecting the spore drive to transwarp tech. I wouldn't expect to see the Miranda class, as we already have the Malachowski, Hoover, Nimitz and Walker classes which already pay tribute to it in more ways than one.
noluckst2 the walker class (USS Shenzhou) reminds me
Of the centaur class, but I refuse to believe the Walker class has 15 decks. As it’s meant to I just don’t see it, so the excelsior would be the size of an ambassador or galaxy then if everything is being scaled up ? Christ how big would the sovereign be ? 900 meters, voyager ? 500?
I hope we get a Borg episode in this series theirs ways to do it in cannon
Honestly I've never cared much for deck numbers in Trek beyond the Constitution (STV Turbolift shaft aside) and Galaxy classes. As far as sizing goes, as I said, I'm fairly certain Discovery will be it's own self contained thing. When Eaglemoss releases their DSC Enterprise, I'm damn near certain it'll have the same stats as the standard TOS Connie release (and if not, well, c'est la vie). And another thing, who's going to notice size discrepancies apart from us nerds?
"If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts,
Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show,
I should really just relax"
Chill me ? HA never lol haha
Scaling looks fine, the original always seemed to small compared to the TNG ships, it was a bit silly.
Speaking of the excelsior... STOs new model for it is amazing.
What people forget (or don't know) is that Gene Roddenbery served in the armed forces so he knew that 400 crew on a ship the size of the TOS Enterprise is well within reason. I wonder how many of the current writers/producers have served?
Gene Roddenberry had just plain wacky ideas about the military, he didn't know anything about the military. The militaristic aspects of Star Trek generally come from Franz Joseph and Steve Cole. They didn't make TNG tribute episodes to SVC for no reason at all, you know...
Mark Lawrence yeah they also didn't have private rooms like on Star Trek. Navy ships are more like prisons than the luxury liners of Star Trek.
Neon Demon only officers have individual crew quarters. It’s been shown on screen in the movies and in TNG, crewmates bunk together.
Star Trek 6 shows quarters with rows of bunks.
All you have to do is look at Franz Joseph's blueprints to see every detail of the layout of Enterprise. It all fits. There is no need for speculation.
Almost nobody knows this, but Franz Joseph was a military aircraft designer for the US defense industry. He also made blueprints of foreign aircraft based on photographs. This last point goes right over most people's heads. Only one group of people does that type of thing, the "Foreign Technology Division" of the Defense Intelligence Agency. The Foreign Technology Division is based in one place and one place only, Paradise Ranch. You know Paradise Ranch as "Area 51". Franz Joseph worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency, specifically the people at "Area 51".
THAT is who designed the USS Enterprise! People like Grumman Aircraft and NASA didn't take an interest in the design of Enterprise because of Gene Roddenberry, they took an interest in it because Franz Joseph had done it.
Kavik Kang Franz Joseph put a bowling alley on the Enterprise in his blueprints. That may have seemed reasonable in the 1970s, but very silly today. Time marches on.
Thank you gentlemen for another great analysis.
You noticed what I noticed on the previous video you gents did.
The windows are HUGE and the decks on this new STD-Constitution class are taller than 4-meters.
Why this ship is so large for a crew of 200-400 remains to be seen.
The World War II Iowa-class battleship was only 262-meters in length and considerably smaller than the original ST:TOS Constitution class yet it had a crew of 2700 people.
Thus at approximately 450-meters long, the new Constitution class (assuming that is what this STD-Enterprise is) is nearly twice the length of an Iowa-class real-world battleship and much larger overall. The ST:TOS Connie was only a bit longer (though still far more volume) than the Iowa-class, so her crew fit within her quite comfortably. The new STD-Enterprise must be so spacious as to not be practical as a science-fiction spacecraft. STD has moved into Space Fantasy territory.
That said, either these new STD ships have A LOT of internal machinery, or a A LOT of ridiculously spacious areas inside the ship that make no sense for a spacecraft when internal volume is at a premium and everything ought to be kept compact, tight, and efficient. Especially in a science vessel that doubles as a warship.
What the two Star Trek universes you are illustrating here show (ST:TOS vs STD) is the difference between proverbial "men and boys". Roddenberry, Jefferies, and Franz Joseph all served in the armed forces and all understood how a military worked and what a future military vessel would likely be like in terms of size, firepower, etc. for the mission that the Constitution class was envisioned to fill. In short, they used military-science of their era to create fictional military ships for a science-fiction TV-show.
Bryan Fuller, and Aaron Harberts on the other hand clearly have never set foot in a military warship let alone served in the armed forces, so their lack of knowledge of military-science/technology comes through in their space-fantasy show.
The STD crew does not have a clue what a SCIENCE-fiction ship of the future would look like that is supposed to fill the role of exploration vessel for the universe STD is supposed to be set in. They appear to be using the "Star-Wars" space-fantasy ideas of huge ships with no realistic purpose other than as plot devices and mcguffins of a TV-show, and while there is absolutely nothing wrong with that when storyline is central to the show, it is a turn-off for those of us who were attracted to Star Trek's actually having some science and realism in the show (I know some of the episodes where off the wall crazy in terms of story, but I'm speaking of the Technology not the stories).
However, STD is not to blame for this derailing of Star Trek from being Science Fiction into Space Opera and ultimately Space Fantasy (which STD is). That path was started with Voyager (slipstream drive, and other rather questionable tech), and got exacerbated with STE and then the JJ-verse movies (which were great action flicks, but not good science-fiction).
Clearly Star Trek has now moved past being science-fiction completely, and thus I for one will move past Star Trek once STO (Star Trek Online) runs its course and either becomes total fantasy (which it is moving in that direction sadly), or comes to an end. As for STD, between the horrid aesthetic for the time period it is set in, the unnecessary and unqualified up-scaling of the ships for no good reason, the mediocre story, and other issues with the show, I'll pass.
You gentlemen have done a fantastic job of vetting STD and showing why many science fiction fans may wish to pass on this one.
Proud_Proletarian just look at the quarters assigned to cadets in STD. Massive room for two people compared to the bunks seen in VOY etc.
That's my point. The reboot isn't fixing the problems, they're making it worse. Voyager is set nearly two-centuries in the future after STD and yet its crew quarters make far more sense than those of the USS Discovery. Methinks Bryan Fuller and Aaron Harberts confused the "The Love Boat" with Star Trek.
Yep, the Enterprise-D even had Captain Stubing Picard. LOL! :D
If the Enterprise didn't fit in to the STD scaling, they should have rescaled the STD ships to the original scaling. For fifty years the scaling has worked fine for most things. It's sensible, realistic and worked well. Not doing so was bad enough but then to compound their error by ridiculously upscaling a model made to fit in the original one proves they don't know what they're doing. If that's a six foot person then the Bridge module is roughly 84 foot long, and if that's a window in the front, it's roughly 24 foot wide. The windows in the side of the bridge module alone are roughly 6 foot in diameter. It not just a question of it breaking 50 years of established lore, it doesn't make sense in itself. Just for comparison's sake, here's an example of something 84 foot long: bit.ly/2Lg9J5S and that's just the bridge module...
I agree, the scaling is much too large. At the current scale you could park several shuttle craft in there with room for people to move around and work on them. A ship's beidge shouldn't be as large as a luxury apartment or a small single story house.
It's difficult to get a sense of scale for the height due to the curve, but I'd estimate the bridge is either three decks, or three decks high. Like I said, it's not just a question of breaking established lore, the new scaling simply doesn't work because there ships weren't designed to that scale. The new scale was simply an afterthought. This clearly shows the level of dysfunction within the STD production team.
It certainly would have been more respectful to resize it to canon. Instead decided to say, "Oh well Gene, you created it, but it's ours now. Too bad you dead old bastard!" while they dance around on his grave.
Chief Jericho On this video the Captain and Commander discussed how that whole module most likely isn't the bridge itself. As for scaling, as I understand it, when they were designing the ships, they realized they didn't make practical sense at the smaller scale. Things like shuttle bays, etc. So they scaled them up. As for the look of the ships here, it's a videogame render. I doubt it's accuracy, since it's too squashed and the windows don't look right compared to what we've seen onscreen. Either way, if it's not onscreen, it's not canon, and no sizes have been given there!
They didn't make "practical sense" because they oversized the shuttle bay sets.
Form follows function. The original series Enterprise works from stem to stern. It was designed by people with an aviation and military background.
Wow, those human size comparison charts oddly work for me too. Suddenly the upscaling makes sense.
You want big for the sake of big, 40k. Fleet backbone, the Lunar class Cruiser, 5km from stem to stern and with a crew 65k. Their battleships ranged from 9km to over 30km with the big unique Dreadnoughts clocking in as minor celestial bodies.
The smallest ship I know of that is military and warp capable is the Viper Sloop at just under a km.
According to the Polar Lights model kit scale the lenght of the "Discovery" version of the Constitution Class is at least 480 meters, so a little bit larger than your calculation..
www.trekbbs.com/threads/discovery-enterprise-and-shenzhou-model-kits-coming-in-2019.294410/
So Enterprise is roughly 450 meters, making Shenzhou 440-450 meters.
If they all scale up the same it puts-@ the +160 meters) (and 56% scale)
Constitution -289M - 450 M (56%)
Excelsior- 467M - 627M (56% = 728M
Ambassador- 526M - 685M (the sovereign size)(56% = 820M
Galaxy -641M -800M (56% = 1KM
Sovereign-685M- 845M (56% = 1.07 KM
I'd love to see a scale comparison between this "1701" and the TNG 1701-D. I have the feeling the D would be close.
The TOS version was a good ship to film in 4:3 aspect ratio. The STD version looks like it's been made for 16:9. but at the expense of the orignal's near perfect proportions.
The nacelles on the original are a perfect 90 degree's to each other. STD's are not, which has radically changed the scale of the saucer, and the height of the neckline. To attain the nacelle's looking over the saucer in the STD version, the saucer has to be wider, and neck shorter. Thus, it's lost it's proportion's that makes the TOS version a joy to film at any angle. Even the refit of the TOS didn't mess with the proportion's and dimension's to the point STD's has....
And I still say it needs to either be white, or have more light shone at it to compensate for how dark it is. The front end view barely lets you see anything but the top of the saucer and the nacelles. Yes, this is arguably realistic to actual life... But the show makers are not making a show to represent actual life, they are making a show to entertain the audience and to entertain an audience you have to be able to see, what they are showing on screen.
I hope Pike asks engineering to juice up the interior lights now Lorca is gone. And thank goodness the old style uniforms are back. They just call out to pay attention to the person in them instead of blending them into the ship the way these pics blend STD ship's into the darkness of space.
I actually think that they SHOULD call it science fantasy. Why? Because it is.
More scifi than Star Wars though.
And there is nothing wrong with that.
Stephen Arseneau forgot about the spores sounds like the force to me lol
"The spice extends life...the spice expands consciousness...the Spice is vital to [Spore Drive] travel....."
They even had a guild navigator.
I know. We had demons appearing out of the "abyss" (Iconians). Like I said in my other post. STD didn't start this train derailing, it just finished it.
The early warning signs were in ST:TOS when they introduced the Greek "god" Apollo as an alien. That should have given us all the first clue. ;)
In the Discovery future, everyone has "personal space" issues! XD
⁰o cool
This comment didn't age well or did it now that we have 2meters between everyone
I have no problem believe the TOS Enterprise "windows" are just that for two reasons: 1) that was how windows were done for sailing vessel models; and 2) because they didn't have the budget/tech to show people inside. In this day and age, however, it wouldn't be too hard to have people in them and shifting colors as people move past them. As such, I'm inclined to head-cannon them as "sensors" rather than "windows". The forward three round "windows" are long range scanners. That's my head-cannon at least (if memory serves, the refit blue prints had these as "force fields").
One thing I just now noticed was the size of the domes. They are MUCH bigger on the Discovery Enterprise than on the TOS Enterprise with one exception: the secondary hull dome above the shuttle bay. It makes this dome seem tiny on the Discovery Enterprise. My current head-cannon (because it's always changing :-) ) is that these domes are the weapons emitters. This gives the TOS Enterprise aft-firing capability and having them be the same size makes sense.
It is interesting the lack of a noticeable bridge area, but they kept the "tubolift" protrusion. I wonder what that's supposed to be (if anything). Still not a fan of the landing lip.
Oh, I forgot to mention: the upsizing of the ship means the interiors are bigger. What little I've seen of the show, the interior areas do seem more spacious than on TOS. I don't know how much of that is intentional or a side-effect of having a bigger budget (and possibly bigger soundstages).
So the only thing wrong with it is 'windows'
Go Apple :P
Tested just posted a video of studio scale models of these Discovery ships shown at Comic-Con. The revised Enterprise looks amazing!
At least 25% different = at least 25% or more bigger ships????
The size comparison of the Excelsior Class and the Discovery Enterprise is not really a issue when you consider the size of modern warships say starting from the 1920's up. For Example the Existing North Carolina Class Battleships, South Dakota Class and the IOWA class are roughly close to each other in length with the South Dakota being the smallest at 680 the NC at 728 and the IOWA at 860. It would make sense that ship building wouldn't make newer ships more drastically larger in size then to what is necessary for use of the weapons and technology they have. They just only get bigger over time, mostly to install more weapons. Ironically after the Excelsior, the Ambassador Class its replacement was just a little bigger with the Galaxy and eventually the Sovereign following a gradual expansion to size and length. This would be a realistic approach to ship building compared to the drastic size change from the Original and TOS Constitution to vastly larger Excelsior. So the Larger Discovery Enterprise and the Movie Era Excelsior look realistically accurate from a gradual ship building perspective. This would also keep the Excelsior from appearing to be the Battleship and remaining in the Heavy Cruiser class and continue the gradual increase in size from the classes to the eventual sovereign
I never realised how narrow connies neck is, as seen around 15 minute mark. You could almost reach both sides with your hands.
I have a theory based on the size of the bridge of Discovery. The 780.5 meters are in fact 780.5 feet, so its about 237 m in length and that would fit with the size of the bridge. Right? It´s nothing new people mixing up meters and feet. So If you guys look into this and recalculate the Discovery as 780 feet see how it fits, same with other Discovery vessels.
USS Enterprise is supposed to be the biggest and most advanced design in its era but all the discovery ships looked like it came from the Next Generation era
The Walker class frustrates me to no end. Looks so futuristic and advanced and so obviously has so much more design effort put into it, yet it's supposed to be older than both the Discovery and the Enterprise and dies within two episodes.
It’s ironic to me that in Abramsverse, besides the Enterprise being larger and having a different styling, the other Abramsverse ships actually conform more to the TOS style than these newer designs from Disco. The Shenzhou looks like it came from TNG era more than TOS era; and I still think it’s too large. It should be slightly smaller than Disco Enterprise, but still larger than TOS Enterprise.
What I find interesting is that scaling the Discovery-verse Constitution saucer to the Shenzhou saucer gave a kind of 'out' in a weird way. We have scale already determined in the prime universe. To "prime" the Shenzhou, you could scale the Shenzhou saucer down to the TOS saucer and get a prime universe size for the Shenzhou. I know that was mentioned, but it can be used as a convenient way to translate sizes between prime and Discovery-verse ships.
Given the number of ship scaling issues in all of the previous iterations of Trek (Bird of Prey, Defiant, even the Excelsior) I'm not to worried about these changes. Trek canon is more than a little indeterminate (hence why you guys are able to spend so long discussing (very much entertaining me) Trek ships.
What do modern warships have to do with Star Destroyers? You make no sense.
Your issue is that you think that 400 people do not fit on the Enterprise while we currently can fit 330 people on a 150 meter long Arleigh-Burke destroyer. That is a real ship, no fantasy.
Fitting 400 people on the Enterprise is easy. The issue is why would you need to?
The reason we had a crew of about 2000 people on an Iowa class battleship is because everything was manual, every AA gun needed crew to operate just like any other system. Now look at the Zumwalt class destroyer: It is 40 meters longer than the Arleigh-Burke but needs with around 150 only half the crew.
Not because "it is too small" but because "everything is automated".
real life warships are cramped as shit, like actually cramped, as in "watch your head or you'll get scalped" and you have to squeeze past someone in a corridor while Trek ships have 9ft wide hallways. trek ships have bedrooms and real ships have cramped communal bunks. all of that comfort space adds up quickly. it's pretty impressive how tightly packed warships are, in the Iowa class there's an access ladder that goes from all the way from the conning tower to engineering that's nicknamed "the death pit"
Honestly if they were going to change the size that much they should have made it even bigger, so that it matched or out massed the Discovery.
it's 2009 Corporate Blunder Part DUH!!
Thing is, the 285m "official" length doesn't really fit. If we're to have 2 decks on the rim of the saucer, it'd make the Enterprise really cramped. 400m would be much more reasonable, considering the height of the ceilings in the original show. So complaining about the change is pointless, unless there's some "sacred" quality to the stated but never on-screen size of 285m.
My bet is that on season two of Discovery they are going to explain away the "original timeline" thing with some sort of hypertime concept. So far we have the Enterprise, the JJprise, and the Discoprise realities.
Instead it uses footage of the enterprise as seen in The Cage, this is just a visual update.
I think this suits the universe better than the tos because for a species in the eras of warp technology Youre going to tell me that you want youre galactic explorers cramped no so you need more internal space so this fits better.
So does this mean that the excelsior, ambassador, and Galaxy classes will be scaled up as well
STD is a REBOOT of the original StarTrek. An as such makes stuff up has it goes along. The people on this forum making excuses for the show obviously don't get this fact. Classic Startrek is dead, ending with the ENT series.
That falls apart when CBS said that Discovery takes place in the same verse with the same everything as Classic Trek. Same ships same people same everything.
A REboot would not have everyone caring about the differences and I wish that it was.
eric zaiz : CBS can say whatever they want, but any moron with two eyes can see the ships, technology, and characters don't match any other StarTrek series.
I think they added a meeting room and captain's ready room off the bridge
Judging by the scaling they added swimming pools, jacuzzis, a full bar, and king-size beds to everyone's quarters. Maybe even have a miniature golf course in there somewhere. ^_^
So, in the re-imagined timeline, The old connie becomes a frigate? While the new one is a heavy cruiser. Would the Excelsior, Ambassador, and Galaxy be even bigger?
I don't have a problem with it being bigger. To be honest, I've always had a problem with the Connie being so small (300 meters,) and only having 400 Crew. Modern carriers (Which the Enterprise could almost be,) have a crew of 4000. A modern cruiser has a crew of 387. But it's only 137 m.
Okay, so I know you guys have done calculations based on window size and everything to come up with the size and scales of different ships, and also use different toys made at certain scales for ship sizes but on screen have we ever gotten official ship size? I mean does anyone ever say or do we ever see how big a ship is in meters? Can we assume that everything has been upsized proportionally? I may ask this in the Facebook group as well.
Sure large surface naval vessels can carry a very large crew compliment but would that be possible in a space vessel? Would you even want to serve onboard a starship the size of a carrier with thousands of crew members in space?? I know I wouldn't. It's really apples to oranges but if one insists on making such a comparison, I think it would be more appropriate to compare starships with submarines. The TOS Constitution class is indeed rather small; this version is better in practically every dimension, pun intended.
Yeah that's the problem with comparing STAR ships with real ships - they're going propably need a lot more space per person to stop people getting claustrophobic AND all the various bits and bobs that allow FTL are going to be huge
🖖😎👍a job very well done indeed 👌
I don't mind the STD scale. It's not like the Kelvin enterprise which is bigger then a galaxy class
Drive'N Static Wasn't it even longer than a Sovereign?
I believe so
Correct. Sovereign was 680 meters. JJPrise is about the same size as the Discovery (around 750 meters)
Yeah but the JJPrise isn't claiming to be the exact same ship as the one we saw in 1966
honestly I'd rather it be closer to the jj verse size so that the constitution looks like one of the biggest baddest classes in the fleet.
I just did this -- I took the lighted "dome" off the Discovery's Enterprise to the black ring, and overlayed it atop the dome on the TOS Enterprise, and it's not THAT much larger. That suggests to me that the "bridge module" itself could be a similar size to the TOS' ship -- it's just the dome itself isn't a smaller porthole.
The bridge deck is certainly a lot larger, like the rest of the ship for Discovery's Enterprise, but the dome... not so much. That's really interesting.
This is another example of WHY this is NOT the Core Star Trek! You have 3 Timelines Core, Prime and Kelvin! Prime shoots off Core and Kelvin shoots off Prime.
Great video, analysis and images, thanks guys.
i have no issue with a slight size increase to fit in better with the rest of canon trek , i always felt that the original connie sized scale didn't really fit , outside the design changes i dont like with the Discoprize such as the pylons and the ugly row of lights , too bulky impulse deck etc
My god she is a beautiful ship.
*Looks at windows* They pulled another JJ, and just scaled it all up, windows included.
Clamshells? Clamshells? CLAMSHELLS? Nooooooooooooo
THIS WASN’T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN YET!!!!
Good trek has two arc enemies. CBS and the ghost of Roddenberry. Trek is at its best when it gets away from those influences.
The Walker class still feels like it has more substance and heft to it. The saucer look similar size, but the Walker class is not a proper saucer and it extends out like a handle welded to a disk to provide the heft of the secondary hull that is just one unified hull, allowing Nacell pylons to be shorter and MUCH thicker. The connys secondary hull provides a LOT of interior space, but that also results in a more spaced out external design. I think the conny has a bit more overall space, but uses it much less efficiently than the walker class does. This same concept can be applied to the Crossfield class as its "saucer" interior space is paltry compared to how orderly and stacked like a big office building floating in the ether a block of space is compared to geometric shapes with curves like cubes and cylinders.
As for what to call it, If you are going to call it the Discovery-verse just go ahead and lop it down to be the STD-verse. More accurate, easier to say. I say that as someone who has saw a lot of potential in discovery. I will always refer to it as STD, regardless if it matches the pejorative nature the initialism implies, or not. I have always preferred the format of ST:___ ST:TOS ST:TNG ST:DS9 ST:V ST:E and now ST:D. Going that way actually makes more sense as there has been a format Starting with TOS where if the title has multiple words, the initial is for each word. The Original Series, The Next Generation, Deep Space 9 translating to ToS, TNG, DS9. I am not saying first 3 format is wrong... Just not the "formal" usage.
There is no shame in it if it follows the logical naming convention. I get the first 3 for ENT and VOY. That is a more of a secondary "accepted" form. Sort of the difference between speaking English and having different regional "accent" applied to the English language.
Yeah, nitpicky interpretation, but people look at language in a "what ever works" pov, which yes, does typically suffice, but the rules of the language are there so that you dont have such confusion. Grammatical rules are to the language, what road signs are to driving. When you follow clearly laid out rules, you accurately get where you are going. Without it, the language becomes sloppy and unusable leading to the advent of things like Poes law which does not actually need to exist.
I've always look at the original Star Trek, the new movies, and Discovery Star Trek as different realities. Makes it easier to accept the changes of uniform and butchering of the Klingon appearance.
IF, the picture we saw awhile ago of a split-level bridge IS the ENTERPRISE bridge, then the side windows shown with your 'to scale' figure would be on the upper level of that design.
A RADICAL DEPARTURE from the TOS bridge to say the least. 8-/
It would also make the lower level line up with the forward lit area.
IMO, the ships are the same size, they are just compared from perspective. The original enterprise is farther away from the viewer than the new enterprise. I call BS.
Lets just finally call it the Discoveryverse.
i wonder if the production crew is trying to hammer out the problems with scales trek has had for years. out of curiosity o wounder what an in scale excelsior and enterprise d would look like ?
So let me guess, the Discovery version of a Galaxy class would be the size of Borg cube or something, right? And the Cube would be the size of Terra or something?
lol front view of Shinzhou makes it look like it's from Mass Effect. Still cool, but I can't help but see the fins and lack of buzzard collectors and I just get the vibe that I get from the Normandy SR-2
Did you guys get new cameras, as the picture quality of you two seems to have improved in this vid.
I don't see why the excelsior, as a newer ship, necessarily needs to be larger.
Great Job! Thank you again!
My latest no reason what so ever theory is.....Discovery season two is about restoring Vulcan in the JJ verse. Multiverse.
Strange... for me, the fact that they are, 'scaled up' doens't do anything for me. We complain about the thing being over a 100 meters longer than the original and yet, it we still say that its trying to meet Star Wars standards. Even scaled up for the discoprise its tiny compared to a star destroyer.
Okay guys, I'm not new. I like the reimagined Enterprise and we'll just say it's an alternate timeline for now. But I'm going to ask for continuity sake, *why wouldn't it look like the Enterprise from the most recent movies* , maybe with a few small changes here and there.
And why go to the trouble of Designing yet another new TOS are uniform when you can use the ones _just invented_ for the last Star Trek movie which were just fine!
*Don't spend all this money on reinventing the wheel for the third time!*
It's gotten to the point that you keep remaking something enough and it *loses the essence of what made it special in the first place* .
(Star Wars doesn't do that, it faithfully recreates classic ships, uniforms and props when they're in a new movie, they're not different in every iteration... this is a specifically Star Trek problem.)
So if JJ has established a new design for the Enterprise, even to be close to continuity with something *just five years ago* why wouldn't you just use that design? It was somewhat controversial but it wasn't is universally hated as most of the discovery ships.
And I'm sure some people are saying but that's an alternate reality Enterprise but Discovery has firmly demonstrated that it's not prime either so if they're both in an alternate reality use the same freaking alternate Enterprise and uniforms and then you can use the sets as well! Seriously why are the retreading this and changing it all again when right down the hall there should be a closet full of uniforms and boxes full of props and a computer with that ship ready to be rendered in any situation you want to invent.
But *no* , they want to start from scratch and do all that stuff again. Why!?
All that being said this new constitution class is beautiful, although clearly not Prime, why don't they use this beautiful design in the movies?! They are the same franchise but they are acting like they aren't related and inventing Star Trek on two parallel assembly lines and ending up with different products on the end and that just seems like a huge waste of talent and obviously a way to *damage the reputation and history and most importantly the integrity of the franchise.*
Dale Stafford you have touched on the absolute basic foundational problem that this entire franchise is teetering on. I don't know why they can't see that out in Hollywood, but you "get it" as if seeing it under microscope, and they really should try doing the same.
Just make things make SENSE!!!
That's a good post, Dale.
I have always considered Star trek ships to be very modular. So they could change the size of it easily by changing out certain parts.
The Disco Universe!
Question: If what's on screen is considered official canon, and everything else is Beta canon, If the size of the Enterprise is never mentioned on screen is it actually 25% bigger then the original?
The size doesn't need to be spoken if human beings are visibly shown walking around in a larger ship. Canon scale can then be worked out. Can't show someone in a ten foot rowboat then claim it's really four.
Thanks, the boat analogy really helps, scaling things in my head is not my strong suit.
Would this dialogue fix the design and scaling issues if it were included? [Of course this would have been best had it been in one of the first two episodes of season 1, replacing Saru with Lorca as Lorca was old enough to have been a young ensign on 2233.04 and could have taken Stamets lines as well.]
Burnham: I'm also detecting a temporal phase shift.
Saru: Phase shift?
Burnham: Affermative The computer has found a match. Seventy-five thousand light years from the Federation-Klingon border, on stardate 2233.04, an identical phase shift was detected by Lt. Cmd Kirk onboard the USS Kelvin. They never determined the cause.
Saru: [pauses for contemplation] Interesting
[Resume plot]
Later
Stamets: I heard Bernham detected the Kelvin phase shift.
Detmer: What do you know about the incident?
Stamets: It swept through the entirety of the Federation and beyond. The only thing of note, is the change in ship design philosophy. Even ships well under development were redesigned.
Detmer: Think it's connected?
Stamets: Some say its directly coincidence, some say there's a correlation, some even say it's a bleed thru from a wound in time.
Detmer: [nods]
Edit: Typo correction.
Hmmmm, I understand the writers and producers wanting to make their mark, but I think they took too much influence from the Abrams reboot. I think "In a Mirror Darkly" parts one and two and Star Trek Continues pretty much sealed it for me that all the classic elements still work and look good. I enjoy Discovery, but I say it takes place in its own universe.
+Trekyards Hey Commander Cockings, I'm curious to know how big the Galaxy class would be scaled to the Discovery universe. Do you think you could do something like that for us? Maybe do a handful of Prime ships, it might actually be hilarious to see how big the Defiant (DS9) would be, or a Borg cube.
Really if ya think about it, the size of the TOS Conny is to small. I do not believe there is enough room for all they had onboard: Swimming pool, Bowling Alley, Warp Core, Shuttle Bays, Storage Rooms, Crew Quarters(I do not believe they hot bunked), Fuel Storage, Kitchen and Cafeteria, Rec Rooms, Sick Bays, Weapon and Probe Storage, Science Labs, and Bridge. All of this requires space.
I understand Cpt Folley's aversion to the continuity errors of Enterprise and Discovery, but you can't just discount them. It's no different to the reaction fans have to The Last Jedi. As much as it moves away from the original, it is still part of the canon.
I like the show as a fun sci-fi serie I know it's Star trek but If I for example watch The Cage I don't think Ooo he took control of the discovery I see this show as a separate thing that is just based off star trek and that's why I'm ok with the new design.
Were is official size of the Discovery?
Face it - the creators of ‘Discovery’ have little idea of
what the design of an actual starship might entailed and little care to be true to established Star Trek canon. I did not want clone copies of TOS design, but for a prequel I did expect that ships, sets, and uniforms would look and feel
like a more detailed and updated version of TOS, not wholesale replacement. Star Wars to its credit has managed a design continuity for decades in its look, even if in the last feel copy, blow up, and pasted star destroyers - why not Star Trek? Why make a prequel if you have no interest in making it look and feel like a prequel? If you want to completely re-imagine the Star Trek universe - then fine, go do what JJ Abrams did by spinning off the Kelvin Universe Timeline.
Is it scaled to the size of the characters? Mikie Burntham is ten feet tall (by ego).
From the few episodes so far, your scale questions regarding the windows does seem to pan out. Many of the interior shots seem to have huge floor to overhead windows.
Also is it just me or does it seem like everyone’s quarters are huge! They look like suites on a luxury liner.
I don't think you can compare trek ships and moden warships, more apt would be to compare them to submarines.
You do know that a submarine like the Los Angles class can hold up to about 200 people and is smaller then a TOS Connie engineer hull right?
I doubt Los Angeles class subs have as large corridors and crew quarters as connie. Also Uss Defiant in DS9 is around 170 meter and has a crew of only 50 and it is over half of connies length ( more without if you don' t count connie's nacelles) and it is concidered cramped.
Also Los Angeles class subs can only go about 90 days witch if far cry from 5 years.
Why can't windows serve more than one deck. They never technical said that the windows were only for one deck.
I think Disco has finally realised the only way it will be accepted is if it owns up to it's own impossibility and turns it's weakness into a strength by making it's flaws key elements of the plot and making it a mystery story of why it's all so F'ed up.
They don't even have to fix it as we are on revision what 5+ already so another one is no big deal so long as it excuses itself as the other revisions made some sort of temporal sense so Far Discovery doesn't - but embracing it's "Otherness" is a good idea and would actually help a lot as would movie more towards an Ensemble cast model and away from the Michael Burnham show exclusively - Basically treat her like Data. Data was part of the away missions - even the focus of them and you saw him on the bridge and off - just do that with Burnham - but also show us the Bridge when she's not there too and don't be afraid to have an entire episode she's barely in. (Picard was in most Episodes of TNG - but he wasn't always the focus of the episode - and the same can be true of Burnham).
I can even tolerate the Klingon ships if the tweak the premise a bit and show other houses ships and perhaps even the re-establishment of the KDF. (If they feel they have to show Klingons at all).
This red stuff might save the Universe if it's an excuse for why it's already broken.