Bare Shaft Tuning my Barebow for 18 Meters or 20 Yards | Barebow Indoor Tuning Mini-Series Ep 3
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
- Continuing the Indoor Barebow Archery Tuning Mini Series with bare shaft tuning on my W&W Meta-DX Barebow setup... Finally I shoot my first bareshafts through this setup at both 18m and 30m, I give my reasoning as to why I prefer to tune at 30 Meters for indoor season.
Tuning for Performance: www.JakeKaminski.com
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Chapters:
00:00-00:41 Intro
00:41-3:55 Zniper Rest Setup
3:55-7:10 Finding my Crawl
7:10-9:55 Why I Tune at 30M
9:55-14:22 Shooting the First Bare Shafts
14:22-17:56 Making the First Adjustments
17:56-22:15 More Bare Shafts
22:15-27:45 30M Bare Shaft Shooting
27:45-28:41 Crawl Check
28:41-33:46 Tuning Woes
33:46-36:03 This is Fine!
36:03- 37:43 18M Shooting
37:43-38:21 Grip Sear Discovery
38:21-46:13 Summary
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That look at 32:50...priceless! Oh, I know that feeling :)
Large diameter carbon arrows are super sensitive. The lack of flex at the rear of the arrow ,doesn't help absorb archer release errors ,and therefore ,I've found,the error is very much exaggerated,compared to say an X10/ACE which allows the back end to flex consistently, allowing the error to dissipate. To shoot large light weight carbon arrows well ,each shot needs to be near perfect every time 😁🏹
Great video ,yet again,so good to watch 👍
Great video and lots of interesting items. Thank you. I'm not your caliber at all, but I have found that when shooting light arrows with significant feathers size, your bare shafts will shoot high as you are moving back. Again, I'm no-where near your caliber of shooter, but on my set up as I move at 20 yards or more, I can see the bare shafts flying flatter. just a thought anyway Thanks for the material and I really appreciate you books Kurt
I have found larger diameter arrows. To be very finicky with a deeper crawl. I have been shooting a .166 arrow with the Kaminski vanes with a helical and they just work. Easier to tune and the smaller diameter arrow has a more precise aiming reference..
I have found something similar to your findings with light arrow shafts (I’ve commented above), so it helps to hear that you found smaller diameter slightly heavier arrows work better for deeper craws. My 4.2 mm arrows work very well but after hearing you confirm my findings, I’ll be ordering 3.2 mm shafts for my next set.
I have bought your tuning book Jake, I'm finding it most useful, and watching your video's here on RUclips are great - Malc
I’ve found a better consistency with the string walk between 0 and ~1inch below the nock, then use face walking for the distance ranges. 100-80 yard, under chin, 60-40/30 yard above the chin, 30-20 yard lips.
I’ve kept an even tiller for outdoor, but noticing the difficultly lifting indoor that you’ve mentioned. So that’s my next bit to understand, I tend to stick to 1 change at a time based on how I’m shooting and what challenges I’m meeting, I’ll stick to 1 thing until I get some consistency.
Nice long video... thanks Jake 🙏🏽
Thank you, Jake, Give me more motivation to tune my indoor set up.
Thank you, Jake! learned to also bare shaft tune at 30 yards
I really thank you for what you do man please keep it up don't get discouraged and don't give up you do amazing work
Thanks Coach!!!!! Going thru that process I was beginning to pull my hair out!!!!! Lol
You explained the process perfectly because I knew what you was looking for between the fletch and bare shaft!!! Again, thanks Coach until.... please stay safe!
Lots of great info. You are right about the deep crawl creating a whiplash effect on the arrow shaft. This effect is compounded by the tiller, nocking point, grip pressure point and draw finger pressure. Also, make sure to use a tied soft nock under the arrow nock to get a consistent read on your tune. Leave enough space so it does not pinch at full draw. I can't tell you how many times the soft nock, set properly, fixed a ton of Barebow tune issues. Don't hesitate to try a negative tiller setting that is way outside your Olympic tune and try swapping limbs top to bottom if still not dialed in. Also remember the crawl / whiplash can create a dynamic spine reduction in the arrow shaft. Try shooting 3# less poundage as a test. Kudos to your channel! Keep bringing the goods Jake!
Jake good luck getting a ATF-DX 27". I tried to order one through my local W&W retailer shortly after they were announced. The response they got direct from W&W was "ATF-DX riser 25" RH and LH are our priority, so 27" will take quite a long time to start shipping". Maybe you'll have better luck since you're you and have a long association with them, maybe they'll send you a pre-production one or something. Good luck! I really wish W&W had on their product announcements and web site that the 27" is "coming in the future" because it looks right now that you can order one which just isn't the case. I wound up buying the ATF-X 27" that the retailer had in stock, the only one at any retailer in Australia it seems. Got it for a good price too, seems the retailer was willing to clear some old stock.
I've spent the past few months attempting to bare shaft tune a set of Chinese X10 arrows. Not helped by choosing too weak a spine in the first place I actually ended up losing 4 inches off the length and 20 grains off the point.
The problem I have is inconsistent form, especially release If your form is crap the flight of the bare shafts will tell you nothing but every now and then it all comes together and that bare shaft flies beautifully and lands right amongst the the fletched arrows Just have to keep shooting arrows
I am having a similar experience: about 42# OtF, lighter 500 spine arrows. had to trim back to 29.5”, cannot cut back any more with my DL. Had a very deep 18M crawl even with my trad/familiar corner of the mouth anchor. 30M crawl is spot on and easy to tune…too bad I’m setting up for indoors.
Ended up dropping to your lower (JK) anchor because I have a big Sicilian nose. That never bothered me with instinctive shooting, but with string walking it kills my nose beyond the capability of a JD3 nose patch to protect.
Of course the crawl went even deeper with the lower anchor…but my nose is happier and I’m not flinching.
The bow can shoot very accurate, but I am finding it super critical, NOT forgiving. At least I’m getting good enough to know what I do wrong with most of the ‘off’ shots. I have decided to keep the tune through the season. This is my first season shooting barebow, and the stakes aren’t that high, just having fun training with my kids. That capable but critical tune is, I am finding, very instructive at this stage. Plus I am staying in shape with the relatively heavier draw weight.
increasing poundage causes a deeper crawl. I've always found that the deeper I crawl the higher I need more nocking point so it make sense. Also I found that if I'm out of practice and been shoot 20+ arrows and my bareshafts are flying crazy... it is 100% me. Trying to correct for bareshafts afterwards always has me chasing my tail that doesn't hold up for the next tuning session. The too high and too low nocking point flops in bareshafts happens a lot for me on the deep crawls and inconsistent slight changes in heel pressure on the grip.
I spend the last month testing Easton Superdrive 23 - 475 Spine with a 125 grain point - and Easton RX7 - 420 Spine with a 160 grain point. Arrowlength is the same and the bareshaft hits the same with both arrows. I had similar problems with the Superdrives, they seemed way more sensitive than the RX7 when it comes to you making mistakes. My up and down was good with both, but the Superdrives drifted a lot of left to right when I had minor inconsistencies. The aluminum arrow just seemed more forgiving for my setup.
I am going back to testing later this season because I had some clearance problems with the RX7 that I was able to fix since then. They still hit amazing. Maybe those changes also helped the Superdrive.
I also put both arrows on a spinetester and the Superdrives varied +/- 15 spine in a shaft (depending on where you turned it) and +/- 25 spine in the dozen. Though most were also +/- 15 and just one was really weak and one pretty stiff.
Am planning to play with larger shaft and fletching and a decent weight pile to try for a fita field setup that gives me a sub 40yd pile on, incidentally it should be OK indoor but primarily I don't want a 50/60 pile on with a setup that rarely if ever shoots part 35 yards
Thanks for the advice and video its fun watching you do these
Sometimes you need to high up your brace height to make your bow to loud...in barebow,, by the way thanks for all the knowlegde you have share,it make me much better more than yesterday..i got my first podium in tournament......
I can done see now you're going to be a champion bro from one Arrow I watched that Arrow hit that Target look like me and hit Square on just straight below the bullseye this is exactly what I want my boy to do he likes it but you know how it is a working dad and trying to keep kids interested in stuff he is Young he's only seven so he's got plenty of time
Might be late to the party with this, but:
the zniper does launch lighter arrows high, like all metal wire rests do.
if it does drop it might still not always drop at release and therefor give you the false idea of a high nocking point..
The helical feathers as you know do a great job steering the arrow because they create a lot of drag. I wonder if the bare shafts are going that bit quicker and actually should group slightly higher at 30M when you find the sweet spot for the nocking point.
Z niper is problem
I'd wrap the ends of the string with some acrylic wool to get rid of that awful string slap noise. Will make your shooting much more enjoyable.
Thanks!
Thanks for the super thanks!
my bear shafts always fly higher,but ive got to a point to were i know where the sweet spot is between the two. as long as my fleched arrows group im happy lol
did my tuning aswell the day after watching this & got it spot on. I also used the rise method at 10m to get the plunger finetuned (how usefull is this actually?).
Will you also do a tuning miniseries for field/3d? Would love to hear your thoughts on that can of worms.
I've also gotten so annoyed with that zniper that i'm putting it in cad to improve the design & have it made somewhere.
Hi Jake , thanks for your videos just started barebow shooting , what plunger do you use please
i would like to see you in lancaster jake
I have started using the zniper a couple of weeks ago and I like it so far. I tried to get it to drop at point on but it seems that when I have it dropping at point on that it is a bit to touchy for me. I am throwing around the idea that if the arrow rest does not drop then it may not be changing the tragectory of the arrow???
I always had issues tuning with a zniper rest.
Hello Jake, i dont know what kind of string material you are using but you can try some slow string like Dacron you might be surprised with the results
Just a thought but have you tried weighing the fletches and then adding tape to the arrows of the same weight, I've found this affects the bareshafts.
Santa was good to me and I'm working a new beiter plunger and zniper drop away into my setup. Been a couple weeks now of me trying to get it tuned and can't seem to figure out this vertical variance. 4 of 6 in the 9 ring, and the other 2 can vary as much as the 3 ring high or low. I switch back to my wire rest (with a separate string and nocking point) and group gets tight again. So I don't THINK it's me... not ready to give up on it yet, but man that thing is tricky. The rest itself drops point on with bareshaft, in fact I've got it so sensitive I have to be very careful putting the arrow on it sometimes. To me, seems like inconsistent drops.... Have you seen this in your tuning? am I that lucky that it's just me? Is it better to have it set as sensitive as possible so that it just holds up the arrow? or as stiff as you can but still drops in a point on shot?
I also had the same experience with bare shafts chasing consistency that you get around 31:00 here. I'd be curious if a more conventional wire rest gives you the same result, or if it's just really hard to bare shaft tune with a zniper...
Are the vanes too big, causing significant drag as compared to the bareshafts? They might group well at 18 but drags too much at 30? For the left bareshaft, is the nock fit too tight, causing a stiffer dynamic spine? The sound of exasperation at 32:00 is so familiar 😅
Are you setting up an 18m bow ready for the Lancaster Archery Classic? 👀
It would be great to see Jake in the Classic. Maybe JD3 vs Jake in the Finals?
@@kitchenerleslie4427 ,Woodsmoke,
Agree totally!
I'd watch the hell outta that!
Jake may have found a “new want to” in bare bow.
I was bareshaft tuning my recurve following instructions from youre book. but my arrows are already the perfect length.
But my bare Shafts are falling left so I’m giving it less plunger tension but then at some point my groups get bigger.
And my fletched arrows are falling more to the right and are moving away from my bare shafts.
And my bare shafts are still falling left so what am I doing wrong?
Grtz from The Netherlands
Hi Jake, in respect to your current arrow tuning process, could you share some thoughts about arrow nodes in this particular indoor arrow setup.
And I don't mean how to find the nodes. You already cover this in an older video. Rather, is the node location something you consider in this setup, or is "perfect node location" an outcome of perfect bareshaft tune?
Especially with those very long arrows used in indoor barebow (to reduce crawl), the front node would be way in front of the plunger contact area, which in theory, is not ideal and forgiving.
What are you using for your target back to put the paper targets on I’m trying to build something to bare shaft on like your set up
Ok so I did archery when i was about 9 and after a while I played archery at a place thats for learning and playing archery I did wellp. But for some reason I stopped and yesterday there was a fare, I saw archery being available so I decied to head for the archery booth, I draw with my right hand and hold the bow on my left, I mever had any issues with mid to long ranges but everytime I try short ranges I'm always hitting the target a bit to the left
Are you using electrical tape on the back of the bare shafts to equal fletch weight?
I tried using feathers with that rest but even tho the rest dropped it really did rip up the fletchings
im having the same issue. ever find what was contacting? is it the wire or the feather hitting the rest base
Try rotating your feathers where it would look like it clears the rest when it's in the down position.
I had this problem, I just switched right wing to left wing feathers giving more time for the spin to clear I guess.
@@blackriflex39 I'm assuming it's the wire rest destroying them Some useful hints in the replies so will investigate. I've only been shooting for 28 months and I'm finding the more proficient I become the more issues arise Such is archery
@@kevinbrown5321 im a newbie also just started in august , i seem to be hitting the plunger with my feathers maybe i should move them farther back on the shaft.. i use jakes vanes and they seem to not be affected like feathers it may just be that they are more forgiving to the contact but over time ultimately show that theres been contact
Is there a reason why you think a lighter arrow is better for 20 yards? I am shooting an arrow that allows me to have a smaller crawl for 20 yards and I find it way better than my lighter field arrows for over and over same distance repetition.
Considering how slight the pressure it takes to drop the zniper, my question is how much does the rest actually effect the arrow flight if it is not tripping the rest as opposed to tripping the rest?
On my 18mm set up, I found my arrows (600 spline 3DHV) without the zniper rests dropping, contacting 2 rings higher than the rest of the group, where zniper test did drop, on the target face.
@@RenegadesFB If the rest falls sometimes then mabye sometimes we are shooting the arrow differently.
If you're not careful and follow the nock point info from the bareshaft. The string walk give false information saying it needs higher or lower nocking point but has gone past it true position
Do the bare shafts not tend to go high because of their reduced drag?
At very long distances they can, and possibly that may be happening here at 30m
Haven't tried it yet for barebow, but for sure on olympic recurve setup, the farther the distance, the higher the bare shafts hit, when compared to the fletched arrows. Vanes/feathers cause extra drag, which in turn reduces arrow speed, thereby causing lower impact points than bare shafts.
Odd question if I may? Why is there such a thing about vibration damping in modern bows like that meta dx? Asking as a trad and primitive bow shooter, mostly longbow but some warned and recurve horse bows. The feeling is regard as feedback mostly. The only reason I can see for damping is to protect the added equipment really or am I missing something fundamental?? 😁😁
The bows feel better, less vibration overall and less noise. However the trade off in this is less feedback by the bow to take into account how the shot went. Added benefit is less vibration into the shooters body, arguably increasing longevity of the shooter.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery thank you indeed squire! That would actually make for an awesome comparison to do when you unveil your upcoming trad now 😁 (eagerly awaited and not forgotten heh heh) I would love to hear your take on the difference in feel and shootability over a days worth
Why are you missing the paper
Feathers have mass, few grains... 🤔
I don't understand why you shoot bare shafts at 30m? When the competition distance is 18m! You tune well so that the bow will be as forgiving as possible! Then I discovered that if the bar shaft hits 1 - 2 cm to the right and 1 - 2 cm low of the feather group! Then the bow is most forgiving. the arrow leaves the bow calmly and smoothly.
I found that your tuning session mirrored what happens in mine. The only thing I would say is that maybe archers should tune for their own individual weaknesses, especially your own individual competition/pressure shot weaknesses ie form/technique issues that everyone experiences under stress, whether they admit it happens it or not.
We don't shoot bareshafts in competition so having the bareshafts land with the fletched in practice is a little practice medal but not really helpful when you are not in a relaxed state in your backyard. Even a local conpetition gets real when they tell you your next arrows are for score. 95% of archers tighten up at that point. It's my opinion that each archer should tune for forgiveness of their weaknesses not perfect bareshaft grouping with the fletched in practice scenarios. It's only my opinion but I think you had a more forgiving setup earlier in the video but you weren't happy with the bareshafts not being with the fletched and went off down that rabbit hole.
There is no 'help' in barebow or trad shooting and the tuning session should take into account competition stress more than some ideal of fletched/bareshafts together. Just my 2c worth.
I am so confused. I watched all your videos, but i never heard you talking about what arrow diameter should I use shooting 3d barebow tournaments?