SMART BMS & EUC Battery Pack Safety Tech Explained
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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Good stuff! In some ways, making reviews of wheels without a smart BMS and calling them out is more powerful than not reviewing them at all.
I agree with this as you may not get access to all wheels that do indeed have a smart BMS.
I would keep in mind that active cell balancing is a risk if the battery is stored or riden at bellow -0c°. Especially if the wheel is riden at those lower temperatures cells often drift easier some what off the cell average and the active cell balancing tries to keep the battery in balance it could damage the battery cells potentially if the battery gets significantly under -0c° temps. But this depends greatly on what the actual active balancing amps are in the bms. But what I understand so far we have no idea what the actual balancing amps are? Please correct me if someone know :)
And also it can be fine to actively balance the cells even lower temps than -0c° because of if the balancing amps are really low. Since you can actually charge lithium cells way colder temps but the amps just need to be really low so that the battery chemistry does not break down.
And just another note in general, the cell voltages have been slowly rising in the battery industry and it is often still under the factory specs to charge cells up to 4.25v and in somecases even up to 4.3v but there really is so little energy stored at those higher voltages and when compared to the decresed life span that the higher charging voltages create is not that beneficial.
And additionally it is often also in the manufacturer specs to discharge all the way down to 2.5v per cell. But again the energy left from 3v -> 2.5v is very little and does not provide much extra range and also decreases life span.
I mention this because the battery often is not stored (atleast should not be!) at these extreme ends of the battery voltages so it does not affect too much the actual life span of the battery. If you for example go ride after the battery is fully charged or put the wheel in to a charger when you come from a ride that has completely depleted the battery.
But over all a great video Adam! Love to see more of these a bit more technical videos that help people understand what actually happens inside these wheels!
I doubt that riding it below 0 even drops the cells to that temperature range unless you been going slow/taking breaks outside at those temps.
The heat from the cells should be more than enough to keep them from getting that cold during use
I doubt that riding it below 0 even drops the cells to that temperature range unless you been going slow/taking breaks outside at those temps.
The heat from the cells should be more than enough to keep them from getting that cold during use
to my knowledge active cell balancing current is wayyyy lower than the discharge current. For example, I build a new battery for my wheel with a smart bms. The balancing current goes up to .4A (which is split between 2 cells because I have a 20S2P configuration). Beefier options have .6A, .8A and 2A active balancing, which all are way within the safety margin.
@@sorvete365 I mean here in Finland we are having up to 2 months -20°c and more and more -30-35°c days in a row and even getting -40°C. And simply the internal battery resistance can not keep the battery warm here.
@@jg_bboy3028 I'm not sure what do you mean by balancing current being lower than discharging current, since discharging a battery at low temps is mostly completely safe. The risk comes from charging cells at low temps.
I have built multiple batteries with JK -BMS and those have had 2a active balacing which would most definately be at a risk range for these batteries. So if we don't know what the balancing amps are then it is a bit of a risk.
Passive balancing would not bring this potential problem.
Adam, I'll watch watch it again to fully understand this important content. Simple the best, better than the rest. Thanks, 6 pac Gord
BMS/Smart BMS for dummies... I have a much better understanding of this topic now... Thank you thank you thank you 🥰
It would be great if you can make a video about just positioning the pads in your way, for aggressive riding. 'Cause it can be real tricky.
I think many people are interested in that.
P.s: great educational video!
Thanks Adam for taking this issue so seriously. As an electrical engineer I've had some dealings with small Li-Ion packs. My KS S18 has been an introduction to the world of larger battery systems. I'm presently working through an issue with one of the 3 20S packs on my wheel. Of course I had to open it up to discover exactly what was wrong. All I saw externally was the charger cutting out abruptly at around 82V (still in CC phase). Turns out that the lowest 5 cells are discharging slightly faster than the rest and were each 400mV low! Ironically it appears the over-voltage supervision chip may be the culprit!
In your video you mention 150mV as an 'upper limit' on cell imbalance. I'm curious as to where this figure comes from and the justification for it. That's a big chunk of the ~1000mV range for 0-100% state of charge. I'd expect there could be issues discharging the EUC to 0% with that level of imbalance...
Got you, a bummer with your S18 :/
That’s what one service technician explained to me but yeah you’re right it shouldn’t be so high as it would indeed change the range of the wheel pretty significantly. It’s best to have the differences as small as possible
What is the mileage?
Does the charger give enough voltage? Mine was set to 83.4V which is not enough for balancing.
Very often the problem is in cracked nickel strips (it may not be easy to see at first glance, because it is usually the lower one). The 20S front packs mainly suffer from it.
By the way, S18 stops charging at a difference of 200mV per cell.
@@vov202vov The EUC reports a maximum voltage during charge of 83.75V. While I have the pack open I'm going to run a test to see whether the balancing actually works (it's got an LED on each cell when balancing is engaged). I'm not convinced it will work 'as intended', partly due to the very small margins involved and component tolerances. Anyway, it will be interesting to see.
My S18 pack (FR) contain the NT1664A-F1A overvoltage protection chip to monitor each of the 20 cells. The chip consists of 4 discrete modules each handling 5 cells (which is why I think it's implicated in the additional drain on the bottom 5 cells). The fault trigger is 4.250V (for at least 1 sec) on any individual cell which cuts off the main pack FETs and the charge cycle will terminate abruptly. I note there doesn't appear to be any individual cell voltage protection against under-voltage which is pretty amazing given such a feature could be done with existing hardware and just a different chip.
As for mileage... I bought the wheel in 2022 but didn't ride it much the first year (for unrelated health reasons). It's up to only 900km. I decided to work on the battery for a bit after being stopped by a cop and given a warning (EUCs are not legal in Victoria AU... gov says maybe this year!).
Wrongway Science Channel :D
Nice Shirt & Good Points 😊👍
please do not change your mind...only smartbms wheel on your reviews....
I feel like the industry needs some serious battery innovations. Hopefully the future holds some sort of crazy solid state graphene antimatter nasa battery that only has a few cells to monitor. Lithium cells sketched me out in flashlights, vapes, phones and RC's. So naturally I trip on my euc's batteries also.
One thing that has bugged me throughout my research on most pev's comes down to a few gripes because at least on any hobby grade rc you can monitor each individual cell easily with a reader or a charger. Also with RC's most rudimentary chargers can balance them at any charge % you want whether it's for storage or use and allows you to charge at any amperage whether you're trickle charging a nickel or rushing a last minute lipo. Plus so many other features like being able to charge ac or dc, being able to discharge batteries for storage or safe disposal, and storing unused battery charge into a bank for later use.
Glad you made this video as many people don't know why as they don't have much experience with these types of batteries.
The lack of "professional" repair shops makes this issue obsolete. My Batterypack of the S22 is broken, everybody either say different things, seems not engaged in helping, will be overpriced if so or just dont understand the problem. Some are silent at all. So glad my BMS shuts down my S22, say I need to repair, but there is no professional repair shop nearby.
On a Lynx during charging the cells reach 4.2 volts but once unplugged and it rests they drop down to about 4.16 if they only reach 4.16 during charging they will drop down to like 4.10
Further considerations . We need Underwriter certificates on the batterye and each battery will be marked with the same designation as the reference in the BMS icons so that any dead cell can be easily recognized.
Because I use my unicycle on land when I am in the marina, my next EUC must be waterproofed.
Glad to see such rigorous demand for good safety equipment in our wheels. Until we can get stable solid-state batteries without any risks for thermal runaway, we NEED every safety feature we can take advantage of to protect us and the people around.
Yeah Good to cover more than less wheels and
The Smart BMS wheels are turning ever more than before, so ought to be on a good course for years to come
Thanks for a good video that people can learn from!
A more deep explanation to the Passive Vs Active balancing is that a BMS with Passive balancing just slowly bleeds off (through resistors) the higher voltage cells until all cells are inside the preset of max cellvoltage difference, and this function are often just active above a certain cellvoltage, like for example 4,1v, so if you don´t charge your battery above that level, no balancing will occur. AND some BMS´es does not activate balancing if you are not charging the battery.
An Active balancing BMS can have similar setup as the passive balancing BMS, but with the big difference that it accually takes the current from the higher voltage cells and put into the lower voltage cells, so it does not just slowly waste the current into heat like the passive balancing BMS does. Active balancing is also often much faster or should I say more powerfull type of balancing. I have a BMS for my 20S33P (yes 33P) DIY moped-battery, it does have 1 amp of Active balancing. My Passive balancing BMS´es can only "balance" or rather bleed off current at 0,06 to 0,10 amps... that is 10x difference. So on a big battery with many cells in parallel it would take forever to balance with passive balancing....
Does the inmotion v14 have active cell balancing?
Hey Adam first of all thanks for the video it really helps people who is new to these stuff. My question is that I got a Extreme and the black handle on the front is not really straight. I only crashed once going 82 kp/h and it is probably the reason but is there any way to straighten it?
This is coming from the perspective of a new-ish rider (just over a year 2 wheels, ~6000mi) but I've never had a wheel with a smart bms. As a new rider it was never really my concern considering the actual operation of the device feels infinitely more dangerous than a battery fire. I'm not saying that bms isn't important but for people coming into the hobby what goes on off the wheel is entirely out of mind. I am happy that you push this especially because of that; new riders aren't going to be thinking about this.
Adam at 6:23 you say not over 0.01 this is Amps being used Live ... a decent BMS will usually kick you out around a 2V difference overall. Good to see you dressed up for the occasion.
EUCRAZY’s recent video on the Dual Battery Mode for the v14 50s model is a MUST WATCH video! Revolutionary!
EUCRAZY’s recent video on the Dual Battery Mode for the v14 50s model is a MUST WATCH video! Revolutionary!
Hi Mr Wrong Way!! I have question for you (sorry for my english ..i'm new one) I have begode t4 and 2 choices of riding "race and offroad" but..... I'm not sure that change anything,i try both of but... I can't feel the differences can you light me pls tankyou.
Last thing im realy better to understand than writing and talking
I love what you do.
Do you know which system is used in the Master V3?
I've never seen my Lynx batteries that far out of balance 0.036 Seems high, the most I've seen is 0.02 during charging but usually they are 0.010 to 0.017
And what difference at say 30% ? I don’t think it’s even have active balancing..
@@W_1_3_7 I always charge until it starts cycling on and off
So a smart bms is a smart idea but what is actually done with the information other than give peace of mind? If you find you have just one bad cell, you will be told by the company that the whole battery pack with the bms board has to be replaced because the amount of work and skill level required just to remove the bms board from the battery pack is too involved and risky and we don't do that kind of work here.
True. But compare that to the alternative, you ride a dead cell around. Have you seen how insane battery fires can get, especially with our big packs? I rode my inmotion V8 for over 7800km now, and it does not have a balancing feature at all. My range started decreasing more and more, and weird stuff happend when I charged it. After only 5000km. I had to buy a new battery, and was not able to tell exactly what was wrong with the old one. I would have had the tools swap the dead cell out, if the system told me there is 1 bad cell.
Also, peace of mind is worth a lot when storing a 3000wh 150v battery next to where you sleep
@@lefotografion Yes, I'll state it a different way... A smart bms is a great feature to have. However, what needs to be addressed is the resolution once it notifies us of a bad cell. Scrapping the entire battery pack and bms off to a landfill because of a single bad cell from a pack full of still perfectly good cells is an inadequate solution. The dealers at the very least should be equipped to be able to change out only the bad cells. The manufacturers might need to make this a feasible task in the design.
@@stevesmith3033 I'm no specialist but that sounds like a BIG ask, getting EUC shop guys to open batteries and replace single cells. If it's feasible, ok. But i'd rather see near 100% efficiency recycling facilities for batteries where we don't need to worry about waste. Keeping our battery minerals in a circular recycling loop would be great both for the environment and for the economy.
The inmotion v11 doesn't have a smart BMS per se but it does have separated battery packs and when you look at the inmotion app or EUC world you can see the voltage of each pack which I feel like is good enough for the most part. Like you said if one cell is not functioning while you would see a voltage discrepancy between both battery packs at idle. I feel like when I look at Lynx packs, I tend to quickly look at the voltage of each pack to ser where it's at rather than look at individual cells. That said if one was red obviously I'd notice it.
By the way when you were looking at the Lynx packs on your phone and saying .15v max difference your app was actually indicating .3v max difference 😁.
look again. it actually shows a 0.036V difference
Good video. What's with the hair?
Nice video and we agree with all the safety related things you say, but honestly, you should stay away from technical stuff, and limit yourself to riding, reviews, EUC activism, etc., things you are actually very good at...
sorry mr, where did you get info about active balancing on veteran and begode?
I have a extreme too and you can even see it on the app when it is doing active balancing I can see it live on the app
@@yussufaayd I didn't see this effect it on my lynx.. kingsong S16 doesn't have it too..
@@taraskin45 it doesn't affect anything you dont realize it
Hi Adam, Lynx doesn’t have active cell balancing, it doesn’t even show every cell in a wheel (only 72 out of 144, 36 for the left pack and 36 for the right one)
“it is passive balancing at end of the charge cycle ... you can see tickle charge (the charger keep turning off and on on end of charging) at a constant voltage phase of the charging process.
Does it suck ? Yes ! Does it change much ? No.
So far none of EUC companies are using real fully featured "smart" BMS, and nobody really cared so far.
Still, my Lynx even with 50E seems to perform well even approx 50 cycles / 1500 km. Range got down a little as expected after few cycles.
Does anybody have more than 5k km / 200 cycles ?
It is still to early to say if the battery is or not solid, but so far it seems promising. I am not an active rider - does an anybody have different experience ?”
It isn't possible to show every cell's voltage independently because cell groups are physically connected via metal tabs in parallel.
Veteran patton have cell balancing system?
Yes
@@mr_wrongway thanks, if you have to choose between v14 and Patton (50s and 70 lb) for a city with many dirt road and rain with flood, whats prefer?
In the lynx example the "smart" bms is monitoring the parallels not the series, Lynx has 2 modules, one on each side, made by 3parallel in 36 series. The bms shows the voltage of only 36 , not 118 cells.
Isn't each pack 72 cells, 36S2P for a total of 144 cells with both packs?
it has 2 packs and each pack is 36s2p and combined is 36s4p which is actually 2590 wh not 2700 wh because 50s nominal voltage is 3.6v not 3.7
@@yussufaayd - 50e nominal voltage is also 3.6v. I don' t know where they get the claimed wh specs from.
Key points:
00:43 *🛠️ A smart BMS ensures safe usage of electric unicycle batteries by monitoring and balancing cell voltages.*
02:59 *🌡️ Active cell balancing is crucial for maintaining optimal battery performance without the need for manual adjustments.*
05:56 *📊 Monitoring individual cell voltages in the battery pack helps prevent potential hazards like overcharging or using damaged cells.*
09:50 *⚠️ EUC designs with separate battery packs enhance safety by isolating issues such as cell failures, reducing the risk of unnoticed damage.*
14:22 *🛡️ Essential features for a reliable smart BMS include active balancing, comprehensive monitoring, and customizable settings for optimal safety and longevity.*
Thanks for the summary! May I put it into the description? :)
@@mr_wrongway Go for it!
you did not talked about.smartbms are draining the battery like on ninebot z10, v13, s22...and it is unsefa when you leave the wheel inlow SOC
It’s a fair point! I could’ve prepared better 👍🏻
S22 does not have a smart BMS, only monitoring BMS, it balances only when charged to full. Lynx, Z10, ET Max and V13 how ever can have phantom drain. However... They all have near 3kwh of battery (well except Z10) . The passive drain isn't that much. And I haven't heard of any V13 phantom drain issues, have you?
@@lefotografion yes I have heard..My friend has it on his v13..also another friend got a v13 first bach bought lately and he got it wilth battery doanbecause of battery drain...most of the user does not notice it because they still ride it often ..
@@omidel. Oh ok. In that case, I'll have a look out for my Lynx then. Can't ride it, busted my rim
I love the Begode Falcon and noooo you won't have it Wrong Way you won't have it...^^ Mr. SBMS.
While everyone will have fun with this ultra fun wheel you will stay in your corner to sulk!
If you watched the whole video you’d say otherwise
@@mr_wrongway I actually looked at everything and everyone is happy with the Falcon. So instead of ignoring SBMS we must also be aware that depending on the size of the battery and the quality of manufacture the SBMB is not necessarily necessary and many are of my opinion, so continue to complain we have fun with it the new Falcon :-)
Na swoim inmotion v5f zrobiłem przeszło 5000km. Nie widzę żadnej różnicy względem początkowego zasięgu. Jeśli taka różnica występuje to jest ona marginalna. Z tego co wiem inmotion v5f nie posiada Smart BMS.
Nice twot knot
👍👍
I don't mind leaving my devices plugged in overnight to balance every few rides 🤷
Its safe till your cgarger fells ok
stroke? @@o_________O
😜
Hi Adam, when do you think your midlife crisis will end?
My mid life crisis is from beginning of my life ❤️
Jealousy is a curse 🥱
@@misubisu it's not the EUC I am referring to
{Dissenting Opinion, not for everyone, I understand.}
I have personally chosen to boycott ALL “new” non-Smart BMS wheels!
I (also) refuse to buy anything other than used wheels until the quality significantly improves from it’s current level. {The Chinese Government went so far as to confiscate millions of PEVs that didn’t conform with regulated safety standards; unfortunately, the Wild West would rather grift off the crisis… remember the Hoverboard debacle.}
😮Support your community, buy from riders, until a truly quality EUC gets produced. (imho)
Adam, your strategy is flawed but I appreciate that you believe that compromise is diplomatic but it’s not. Business is not personal, integrity (and sanity) requires having strong boundaries.
Lastly, most existing EUCs are non-smart BMS; an explanation of how to manage the charge-cycle for older wheels is critical, with an without a “PIDzoom Charger Enhancer”, which was literally designed to acknowledge and partially address the existing design inadequacies (if used properly).
Interesting. What do you think about the Lynx? What in your opinion is it supposed to do better? Has an actual smart BMS with balancing without charging to full, has a good build quality and reliability, and is non the less the most powerful out there. Uses the better cells (50S) and takes care of them
@@lefotografionBetween the Lynx or the V14. I’d like both in a couple years, if I can find one used.
I absolutely love my current 16x but suspension is becoming more of a necessity over time.
I’ve heard about some minor issues that I would probably adjust to (Adam mentioned pedal sensitivity issues with this movement algorithm… tolerable for me on a used wheel but I’m glad to wait until it’s fixed in later versions.
Someone is selling their Sherman Max for $1k In good condition. If my physician condition could handle the weight and non-suspension, then I’d be okay waiting 3-4 years before buying the Lynx. So I might just break down and get an S22 as others enjoy their Lynx and I hope to catch up when the next greatest thing attracts people to upgrade yet again.
Anything you would like to see improved on the Lynx, with regards to design? Would any of the newer offerings entice you to upgrade or add to the fleet? Or, have you seen any good ways to integrate a high speed charger into the seat for extended range?
The V14 50s Dual battery mode blows my mind. So I might get several other wheels on my way to the top.
The Lynx is unfortunately attracting too many zero time riders and the injuries and low mileage resales are showing up more frequently on the marketplace. This is tragic for everyone sympathetic to both riders, distributors manufacturers, and the growth of the EUC movement.
@@grb1969 dude, don't get the S22. Just don't. Ats a bomb waiting to ruin your EUC enthusiasm. Bolts are chinesium, sliders last only 100km, motor bearings go rusting all the time, linkage gets dirty and scrubs itself away, it's weak AF... Owned it now 2 years, rode maybe 5 months as the rest of the time it was broken. Lynx is a completely different level. Literally Infinite torque, extremely good build quality, basically zero maintenance, and just performs over all perfect. 90kmh easy to reach, and the only limit to your acceleration is your skill and pad setup. My only gripe is the sub optimal trolly build quality, it rattles a little and doesn't match the rest. V14... Nah. Very limited tire choice, sliders can rust, not stable at speed, weighs the same as Lynx, I've seen it being overpowered on jumps and just by riding it. Lynx I haven't seen any one overpower it. 50S version that is.
About pedal sensitivity, haven't heard of that. You can adjust the softness in the app and on screen, and it's ridiculous how soft it can get.
Only other issue I heard about was the interference from the low voltage board, but they already fixed that. Oh and the stock nobby tire is trash on that wheel
@@lefotografionI agree with everything and I’ve been waiting for KS to “fix” some of these issues with the s22 but the attempts they’ve done have demonstrated that they are unserious about updating the design for long term sales and service, which has created volatility in sales and less loyalty among riders whom had higher expectations.
I’ve only ridden the v14 once and have been waiting for all issues to be exposed and addressed but I’m not yet confident that Inmotion won’t abandon the design too. I get the impression that the business model is to blame, which keeps me from buying any new wheels until the dust settles. Developing this technology is very difficult if the upfront investment in design and production keeps getting eaten up with post-production issues and the profitability of each model line is shortened into a cycle of hype then abandonment.
I see the Lynx as having had much greater consistency or sales with a longer expectation of service life but unless these wheels are designed to be serviceable for at least 10 years, then they’re still just disposable technology with a price that far exceeds the value.
I’m just hoping that these companies get more serious about business strategy before they all get consumed by Venture Capital firms (which is what happened at Inmotion). It will be years before the investment in the scooter business can recovered and this has seriously harmed the economic resiliency of these brands. So, I’m happy to wait and see what happens.
Luckily, the manufacturer’s do listen to almost all criticisms and design ideas, which has been reassuring, so there’s still hope.
I hope to get a Lynx in a couple years from now but I secretly hope that there’ll be a ‘new’ wheel that could persuade me to buy with confidence that it’ll be relevant for long term ownership.
Happy trails.
@@grb1969 agree with most. But talking value, I paid 2800 for my 50s Lynx. There is nothing in this world that has the power, battery, suspension and quality at that price. Look at electric MCs, they cost double for this performance and battery. Ebikes go fo 7000 while having 500wh and 250w and 25kmh. Like, it's worth every penny
First
When a smart bms detects a fault.
What is a user to do?
is self repair a considerstion. Do we send it to a 3rd party to attempt to reverse engineer the system and repair.
The most common issue is either a low voltage cell group which needs to be charged or a dead cell which could be replaced. It’s safer to change the whole battery pack though :/ sometimes a BMS change is needed and that’s also complicated and best done by a battery repair service
Does begode falcon has smart BMS? please.
It doesn’t but it has split battery packs so if one acts up, the main battery distribution board should intervene. Not as good as smart BMS but also not completely bad