Can’t decide on your EUC battery? 50S pros and cons analysis
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- Hey everyone, there is much discussion right now about the 50S battery cells. I had to make a decision for my Lynx pre-order. Here are my reasons and also input from other riders, E-Riderz and thanks to Jordan an Electrical Engineer.
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00:00 - Overview
00:31 - Summary
01:31 - E-Riderz Comment
01:48 - Questions to Electrical Engineer Jordan
02:02 - Q1 Cutout Risk?
02:32 - Q2 50S Performance?
02:54 - Q3 50S better at high Volts?
03:17 - Support the channel :)
03:25 - 50S for everyone!?
03:50 - Q4 Lifecycle
04:38 - Lifecycle roughly
05:11 - Transcript
05:19 - Summary Jordan
Here is a graph of the 50S vs 50E, curtesy of eWheels.
Capacity
www.ewheels.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/50S-vs-50S-Capacity.jpg
lifecycle
www.ewheels.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Battery-Cell-Comparative-Lifespan-V2.jpg
*Support the channel*
E-Riderz code 'Jono', get $50 off your next EUC e-riderz.com.au/product-category/electric-unicycles/
Buying an EUC at eWheels? support the channel with my affiliate link!
shrsl.com/4c8gh
This is a very informative video that confirms that I'm making the right choice in getting the EB Commander Mini with the 50S cells. I'm learning that I'm a very aggressive rider so the extra cost is justified to me.
As Electrical Engineer I have to say very good content :).
Good to hear, glad i'm putting out the right info. cheers
Hello ! As a non electrical engineer, would these cells be good for a ebike battery pack ? thanks :)
Appreciate the info. Can't wait to hear more about the lynx
Thank you! Good content and good presentation. Now I'm ready for some videos on that Lynx!
Great info, ta very much. Two of my favourite transport vehicles here : EUC and surfski in the background, nice!
Good eyes I didn't pick up on those! There are often Fliteboards in that area too.
Great stuff, keep it commin!
Very informative, THANKS!
Great to know !
Thanks brother!!🙏
Good, concise content. Thanks
perfect timing. Thanks for the very relevant video. you should have the friend on for an interview.
Cheers and good idea! I'm sure I'd soon be left behind on the technical side of things in a live discussion.
Thanks buddy! I have the Lynx coming in. I ride hard too with my v12HS pushing 98% PWM!! This headroom will be awesome.
Woohoo! happy for you. The Lynx looks superb. (you got the 50S I guess)
Im goin 50s. Better the battery replacement than a hip replacement.
well said
Awesome video, thank you Jon!
Do you ever look at the display setting showing the amp draw while riding your Sherman S?
Would love to know how many amps you draw when leaning or riding hard.
Thanks Ras, No. I set the PWM alarm at 85% and listen to wheel beeps but it's not ideal.
I recently got surprised by acceleration fast wheel beeps in a dip into uphill (50% battery). Here is the graph for it, looks to be about 145A peak.
i.imgur.com/D2RO8WT.png
(Private property)
So i hit 250 amps (28000w) multiple times, but the thing is, Begode and leaperkim show us Phase Amps and watts. Has nothing to do with what the batterys are supplying. KS and IM show you battery amps / Watts.
However, that was peak. Sustained wattage I managed to get was 8000w which in amps is like .... 86A
Which from an 8p battery pack, is still just about 10A per cell. So absolutely in their range
A lot of people think the 50S suffer from lower lifecycle. It doesn’t.
Most life cycle tests on 50e is done at half of the discharge capacity. Where most 50s tests are done at full discharge capacity. When both are done at the max, the lifecycle for 50s is better. The only disadvantage to 50s is the cost, everything else is superior.
Im curious to see if you could actually be able to feel the difference in performance between the two types of batteries.
Will test if I can get two wheel variations side by side!
You should have shown the comparison on the graph with the 50e cells along with kilometer range and life cycles.
great idea
Here is that graph, curtesy of eWheels.
Capacity
www.ewheels.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/50S-vs-50S-Capacity.jpg
lifecycle
www.ewheels.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Battery-Cell-Comparative-Lifespan-V2.jpg
@@jonoeuc awesome. Thank you. Virtually the same discharge with the s cells higher peak.
@@jonoeuc lifecycle only 5% degradation with the s cells. So really not much difference either way. Just choosing slightly higher performance with slightly less battery cycles with the s cells and vice versa with the e cells. It’s a dilemma. I think I would go with more cycle being I really don’t think you would feel a performance difference between the two if compared.
what about 50GB?
Safety margin is a huge plus
in a practical world, comparing 50e vs 50s is all just splitting hairs. If you had the choice between those 2 then yah just get the better one, but you probably won't notice any real world difference. On an average ride cruising at 30mph or so, you are drawing maybe 0.5c out the cells, probably less. All these tests and graphs are done under extreme circumstances, drawing maximum amps out of the cell. That's like going full send up a steep hill from 100% battery to 0% and that still probably wouldn't be max load (at least for the battery, controller and motor are a different story). The 600 life cycles is based on 4.2v to 2.5v which is basically you have to put it in low power mode and ride it til it dies everytime. Most likely you will get 1000-2000+ cycles if you go from 100% to 10%. Thats like 3-6 years of riding every single day 50+ miles, and at that point you'll have around 80% capacity left. It's good to know the capabilities of the batteries, but nowadays if you're getting a reputable product worrying about battery life is not necessary.
what to focus on is if you're looking at performance, the controller and motor how much power they can output. Range, just look at total battery watt hours. Thats pretty much it, everything else is negligible
yea pretty much
If the battery is big (3000+ Wh) you need 50S cells far, far less than if the battery is small (2000 Wh). Let's assume EUC cells work between 4.2V and 3.3V, and peak output = continuous +50%.
3000 Wh pack of 50E/50G cells can do (162 cells x 4.2V x 10A) 6.8kW continuous (10.2kW peak) output at 100% charge, down to (162 x 3.3V x 10A) 5.3kW continuous (8kW peak) at 1%.
2000 Wh pack of 50E/50G cells can do (108 cells x 4.2V x 10A) 4.5kW continuous (6.8kW peak) output at 100% charge, down to (108 x 3.3V x 10A) 3.5kW continuous (5.3kW peak) at 1%.
As you can see a 2000 Wh battery wont be able to fully support a 4kW (8kW peak) motor at any % charge. But the 3000 Wh battery will support it fully all the way to 1% charge.
If you're considering a 3500+ Wh EUC, dont assume you need 50S. But if you're like me and want a light, nimble, smaller battery EUC, you almost definitely want 50S inside.
The middle ground 2700 Wh (146 cells?) Veteran Lynx will do 6.1kW (9.2kW peak) at 100%, down to 4.8kW (7.2kW peak) at 1%, with 50E cells.
So 50E cells can almost fully support the 3.2kW (8kW peak) motor all the way down to 1% battery. It loses the 8kW peak at 40% battery. But you dont need 50S cells in the Lynx.
(Disclaimer for any miscalculations or assumptons I made.)
excellent, yes I didn't quite drill down into that with Jordan. I wasn't sure how to get there at the time.
@@jonoeuc I guess you can argue that the 2.5x higher current output of the 50S cells will make the EUC considerably more resistant to ageing.
I'm no battery expert but as far as I know, capacity decreases and resistance increases with age and use. Higher resistance means lower peak Amp output.
50S cells aged to 40% left may(??) be able to match brand new 50E cells in output, but not in capacity. 50E cells should be more susceptible to volt sag and overpowering with age.
Once 50S cells only do 40% of their output and capacity, you're probably looking to replace battery. They will have done their life job, but still give power like brand new 50E.
So maybe 50S is always the way to go.
Du coup la charge rapide n'est pas forcément bon pour les cellules en général sur toutes roue ?
The best practice is to charge slower to preserve optimum life cycle. However if you need fast charging for your use case go for it and enjoy I say.
**google translation of above for others: "So fast charging is not necessarily good for cells in general on all wheels?"**
,,fast,, charging at 10A is a joke, sorry to put it that way. Especially for an 8p pack, that's like 1.2A per cell, like 10% of what ,,fast,, charging could be.
Yet i agree, if not necessary, 5amps will do it to. Way more important is to not ALWAYS charge it to 100% or let it below 20%
Got the right forum link? :)
Hey Jordan, it's awaiting mod approval. sorry.
I only just signed up on there.
Thanks a ton again for your help! Are you happy the video? Stayed pretty close to our chat.
@@jonoeuc You've got the takeaways. The whole situation got blown out of proportion - it's mainly an issue for the people who push it.
My biggest bugbear was the misinfo on the 50S somehow being worse than the 50E :P - fortunately here it's just better in every way!
updated forum link forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/34741-50s-vs-50e-split-frominmotion-adventure-a-new-trail-wheel-from-inmotion/
Can I see on the app whether the battery is 50s or 50e?
Afaik you have to rely on the sticker on the euc body... the only definitive was is to cut open the battery packs and see what's written on the cells. a bit of blind faith is required.
Where can i buy that red shirt?
I don't know sorry. It was a facebook ad maybe on the onewheel group. I hardly ever impulse buy but i'm stoked I jumped on this one!
Zen Lee has a new video where he expressed concerns about the degradation of the 50S cells based on his observations. I guess we will see.
i think i know what you’re talking about and it didn’t make much sense to me. he just said that the commander gt had less range then another wheel with the same size of battery pack and blamed the 50s without giving any more information so idk what he was saying really
Possibly but the published performance data is based on much higher charging and discharging rates than we will experience utilizing our EUC's. So I'm not sure if I agree with that position on degradation. We will most likely see far better results.
Two independent real life tests show that the 50S age better than the 50E under typical load conditions that would be seen in an EUC. A "hunch" about cells degrading after a few cycles based on no real data is silly, and just spreads misinformation.
50S better range than 50E ? (in exaclty same condition, same speed, same weight..... )
That's what is suggested by the data at this point. Key points from Jordan on this:
- 50E drops 0.3V, wasting 3W per cell
- 50S drops 0.15V, wasting 1.5W per cell
- Batteries get less hot/more efficient, could have longer life but very marginal for almost everyone
(therefore expected) A few percentage points more range
Cheers, jono
I went 50E on my Patton and cant really see why anyone would do 50S cells unless they race the wheel. For daily fun and commuting the 50E vs 50S won't make any sort of difference.
100%
Cells in parallel NOT series decrease battery sag because they increase capacity.. Cells in series only increase top speed
Either way you're using some amount of energy. At the same speed, there's no difference in effective battery sag between a 100V and 150V system (one will sag 2V, the other will sag 3V, but that's 2% either way)
Oversimplifying it there. There are many more factors at play.
@@user-ke9yk5qp3u Sure, but the broad strokes are as follows:
A motor controller is basically a buck converter. If you feed 150V in, it only needs half the battery current for the same motor current as a 75V battery. This means doubling the battery voltage and halving the number of parallel batteries is neatly cancelled by the halved amp requirements resulting in the same per-cell current.
The voltage drop is doubled overall, but it's the same relative percentage drop across the overall pack.
Thank you @@jordanb722 for bringing this information here, many people don't know this, my self from a few months ago included
The 50s batteries will get less total life. Will have to replace batteries sooner. I would rather have slightly less performance and have my batteries last longer.
This is a false statement that keeps getting repeated over and over. There are multiple real life tests showing they actually age better than the 50E. Check the eucforums experience-with-50e-vs-40t thread. The 50S are superior in every way to the 50E, except price.
Did you watch the video? This is not true. All rumors of total life are based on 25amp continuous discharge testing. Which is very extreme. It’s likely that the 50S have almost the same or better life expectancy than the 50E, which were tested at 6amp continuous discharge.
@@wheelydope Your correct.
@@dustinhankins2153are you actually agreeing with him?
Cause I’m thinking getting custom 72v battery that uses 50S. Unless 50E actually last longer?
@@Mash3OH3 Yes. I rewatched the video and also have seen others explain it and review 50s out performs the E in every aspect.