Penn Jillette on why his views on libertarianism have changed
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- “The cliché when anybody fades away from a movement is ‘I didn’t change. The organization left me’… And I don’t want to be into that cliché, but I feel there’s some truth to it. My idea of libertarianism was responsibility for others. That was the most important part. I wanted to trust people to take care of each other and not use force. Libertarianism, from my point of view, was almost a pathological optimism and love for people. It was complete and utter lack of cynicism. I am not a cynical person, I am crazily optimistic. And I saw people using that same word, ‘libertarian,’ to mean ‘I don’t care about other people.’” - Penn Jillette
Just in case anyone forgot. When Penn and Teller had their show Bullshit, they did an episode on vaccines where they debunked a lot of what Jenny McCarthy said. So, never associate pen with the antivax movement
There are two definitions of "anti-vax" in common use, and really only one associated with a movement. The movement and the old definition was skeptical of vaccines that went through a full testing process and they latched onto conspiracy theories about side effects of proven vaccines. The more common new definition of "anti-vax" really has nothing to do with this movement.
I'd probably be smart to not associate people that are against mandated COVID vaccines with the "anit-vax movement"
To be fair, in that episode they simply plagiarized the talking points that had already been presented by vaccine developers and grant recipients. Not even Stanley Plotkin, who literally wrote the textbook on vaccines, was able to defend the dominant narrative under meticulous deposition… very disappointing. A rational person would have grave concerns about that outcome.
Unfortunately his support of vaccines and Fauci was total BULLSHIT. All the mandates from masks to 6 feet to get vaxxed and you won't get Covid or spread it has been shown to be lies. Yes he was stupid about the vaccine and still is. How many vaccines has he taken and given to his kids?
He didn't sound antivax here. But he did say something interesting. The vaccine was invented in 3 days and then wonder why people don't trust it? Kind of answered his own question there. The vaccine has the effectiveness of something that was rushed together in 3 days.
The anti-drunk driver stance he took is key to debunking libertarian arguments. Essentially, if individuals are not responsible enough (or intellectually capable enough) to avoid behavior that jeopardizes the other people with whom they share this planet, the other people have three elementary responses: 1) People can unite to compel others to behave responsibly (government action) or, 2) respond individually (vigilantism), or, 3) do nothing and get massacred by all the idiots that are "free" to do whatever they want without any intervention.
Vigilante behavior quickly deteriorates into gang warfare, tribalism, or similar settings of violence and retribution, and most folks refuse to go there for that reason. And, since most people refuse to idly let themselves and their families be exploited or massacred without opposition, the default option throughout most of human history has been the first option: government response. Of course, the nuances and complexity of government issues and functions is as limitless as human imagination and emotion, but that is what we ought to all be working towards bettering. Everything else is navel gazing.
well put
This right here is why I have such respect for Penn, even though he has expressed opinions that I highly disagree with. He isn't stuck in his ways, and his views alwayd come from a level of kindness. I might not agree with his conclusions, but I respect how he got there.
Yep very example of the phrase " Agree too disagree"
he, as always, is just deferential to power.
I don’t agree with his views on religion but most everything else.
Ok. Well one other thing. He once said he’d be happy to sleep with Ayn Rand. Ummm I’ll pass !
Yes, opportunity for growth and have RATIONAL debates. The things he despises are things I’m usually the same opinion and the less confidence stuff he says I disagree with. I definitely don’t agree w/his religious views but he doesn’t dump on people who do believe or are skeptic. Just a great guy, I hope he runs for President as the first 3rd party guy to make it. I’d back his campaign any day. 1st president who would ever admit he was wrong on an issue and make a change in a 4-year run guarantee. Sorry for the mandatory mask wearing, I thought it would help but it didn’t, liberals apologize for being wrong, oh you still don’t think you’re wrong? Okay. Just let Karen bitch for 5 minutes guys.
I've never heard American libertarianism described as being about responsibility for others. Typically it's seen as focused on minimal government intervention in markets and personal lives; personal responsibility is crucial. You can feel responsible towards others if you like, that's your choice and your freedom, but by no means are you expected to. This makes me think he's actually more of an anarchist. Not in the cliche sense of anarchy being no government or rules, but it is about minimal government intervention (etc.) because you are expected to feel responsibility towards others and not need a government to compel this.
I mean, "everybody helps everybody out without being coerced" is the ideal result of both anarchy and Marxism.
I can sympathize with the idealist fantasy of libertarianism. If everybody just had good intentions and the presciense to anticipate the long-term effects of their actions, we'd all be completely free and perfectly responsible and we'd end war and hunger. That'll happen when we get assimilated by the Borg, or we wipe out like 90% of our population, whichever comes first.
Penn has always been ancap on the economic sphere, and on the social sphere he is more of an agorist
Yeah I'm glad this is top comment, was going to say something similar. Anarchists and other left-libertarians consider mutual aid and voluntary cooperative organizations as a big part of their worldview.
I think you’re confused. Penn was never a conservative libertarian, and always has been a vocal left libertarian. Penn is just realizing that his party left him a while ago. He was probably one of the last vocal social libertarians around.
@@Chris-ot1ze You say I am confused... I do not think that word means what you think it means! I admit I was ignorant about a very, very obscure and almost extinct American way of political thinking. I have a few friends who call themselves libertarian (in the American sense). While not all of them are right-wingers I think it's fair to say if they are representative of how American libertarians are then they indeed left Jillette and others who think like them far behind.
responsibility for others?? not "f u, got mine!"??
The Libertarian party has lost their minds. I was once a proud member, and debated and OWNED Libs/Conservatives in debates.
Yep, they have devolved into “We will not fund infrastructure like road repairs, A jet pack for every household” When someone like Gary Johnson is booed for saying drivers should have a license 🪪 to drive,it’s, uhh telling
>debated and OWNED
You are part of the reason why they lost their minds, you fool.
The moment you saw the debate and went "oh i need to OWN THEM" was the moment you fucked up.
I think mankind's greatest accomplishment was the free refill at restaurants but that's just me
No. Sugar is highly addictive and damaging to your body. It's destroying Americans.
I mean.... you're not wrong. I'd argue that agriculture is literally the greatest accomplishment of mankind. The entire reason for that being readily available sustinance for a population. I'd say free refills falls into that category.
@@redonk1740 Wrong. Free refills and all-you-can-eat buffets are mankinds all-time greatest achievements and will NEVER be topped.
So he went from misunderstanding liberty to misunderstanding liberty.
He simply grew up. You are clearly not there, yet. ;-)
He went from understanding that humans had the capacity to operate humanely, compassionately and cooperatively without enforcement from state, to also understanding how humans had the capacity to operate mindlessly, cruelly and selfishly just out of spite of an authority. He assumed that people would choose to wear masks because it was the advice given by those who are experts on the topic, but instead large swathes of them refused to do it BECAUSE they were advised to do it by experts, out of some weird teenage reversal mentality, which forced the state to step in and legislate on it. It has nothing to do with liberty. In future authorities know they just need to tell people to do the opposite of what they want, and a whole heap of sheep will fall for the reverse psychology with their childish notions of "liberty". Medical authorities literally had to advise people not to drink bleach as a cure and people did it anyway.
I'm a libertarian not necessarily because I'm optimistic about the efficiency of a free and unregulated people (although I am), but because I'm incredibly pessimistic about the competence of government.
Why are you pessimistic about their competence though, give an example
@@Sammie551 ......Anything the government does.........Literally anything. How can I give an example when the examples are happening every day? You can see it on the news. It's everywhere.
@@chris135x no I don't
Government IS people. It's not that gov't is incompetent - it's that people are incompetent.
There has never been a 'free-market' and whenever regulations have been relaxed or non-existent with respect to any form of action, it's absolutely led to people abusing that to the complete detriment of others.
@PhrontDoor Let's say you're right. You still have incompetent people running the government. You can't just snap your fingers and find the competent ones.
He’s blaming the effect when he should be blaming the cause.
One of the first things I thought when coercive vaccination and mask mandates were pitched was that it was going to destroy the credibility of vaccinations and masks. Like most libertarian minded people, my instinct to coercion is to do the opposite just because you’re trying to force me to do it. From this point on, vaccination and mask programs will be far, far more difficult to implement because people view them as a means for ulterior motives.
It should never have required coercion. That should never be an option. Instead, lay out the evidence and show people why they should want to get vaccinated or wear a mask. Some people won’t get on board anyway, but what has occurred will be far more destructive to public health than people not listening to good evidence ever could.
Penn should be disappointed that anyone thought coercion and lies were going to lead to a good outcome. That kind of “ends justifying the means” is antithetical to libertarianism.
That just makes you a childish contrarian, and possibly, a good Libertarian. Requiring seatbelts doesnt destroy the credibility of seatbelts. Work on your selective logic application.
"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton
Lol, what did Hamilton think government is made of?
“Government is instituted so that some men who have a passion to dictate conformity among man can do so without constraints, reason, or being subject to justice.” - Alexander Hamilton (paraphrased) The irony is astonishing, yet a superbly accurate description of “man” as government.
One quote does not a man make. Jefferson put limits on government because he knew the dangers of Absolute power, it corrupts Absolutely.
@@ParaousiaComingnowOnly a Sith thinks in absolutes. When Hamilton said that statement, he wasn't talking about wino's and prostitutes and street thieves, he was talking about those that were already powerful and desired more and more.
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Government is SUPPOSED (I understand that this is wishful thinking, but we are speaking philosophically) to guard against absolute power. That is the "passions of men" about which he speaks.
Hamilton warned (Federalist Paper No. 84) that the Bill of Rights didn't go far enough.
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Proper government is supposed (there's that word again) to defend individual liberty against business interests, wealth, and social power. We don't need less government, we need more gov actually doing it's job.
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There is a saying, "Regulations are written in blood". That is the blood of the people, not some pitiful owner crying about how hard it is to make more money and how they should be given Laissez-Faire to do whatever they want (which Jefferson wanted no matter what he wrote - his actions show his greed). If business and raw capitalism had its way, they would feed workers to the machine. Government is the only way to combat that level of power.
@@ered203 There's far more to it than that... Business Interests, Wealth and Social Power? Your confusing Marxist Dialectic Materialism and French Revolution BS with the formation of the US. Far more important to Americans was Freedom from the Absolute power of the Papacy who ruled European affairs for over a millennium.
The Papacy started and instituted the Nobility - Divine Right. Freedom of Religion - Freedom from the Absolute control of the Papacy and it's shilled Nobility was the issue. Government has always been necessary in large populations of people for order. Whether it's individual wino's, prostitutes, thieves, murderers or danger from a wealthy class. It wasn't invented to combat capitalism. Government's not there just to protect us from the Big corporations.
The word "Libertarian" originally meant a kind of left wing anti-authoritarian. That word was deliberately misrepresented and destroyed for the purpose of destroying what is now called anarchism since "libertarianism" is no longer available.
See this quote:
"One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, 'our side,' had captured a crucial word from the enemy. 'Libertarians' had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over."
- Rothbard, Murray
I can’t find any record of anti mask protests in Vegas, only anti mandate (which he said he would support). Does anyone know which protests he was talking about here?
Because Penn didn't lead it I guess. Lol!
I think he was referring to the tone of the email, not the rally itself, which makes his epiphany seem even more asinine. He changed his views on libertarianism because one guy was mean about masking.
We had anti mandate rallies. If you want to wear a mask, go ahead, still do even, but don't tell me I have to wear one to go to the park, in the pool, when I'm alone driving in my car. The masks didn't make sense as was admitted to later anyway, but the rallies were against forcing people to do things especially when the things didn't make sense. That indeed is a libertarian pov.
there was literally an organization called No Mask Nevada (not, no mandate nevada). absolutely a big part of these protests was the argument that the masks are bad and people shouldn't wear them. People argued that they don't work, and others argued that the way to counter the virus was to build immunity through exposure. they weren't arguing that we should ban the use of masks, but they were absolutely arguing that people shouldn't wear masks. and anyone who has encountered particularly looney conservatives in public wearing one can probably attest to this. There were businesses in my state that refused to serve people who walked in wearing masks.
Most medicines go through extensive FDA testing before being released on the market, out of concern that the medicines will have negative side effects that exceed the benefits. So is it surprising that people were wary of being forced to take a vaccine that had no significant safety testing?
It had a whole clinical trial concerning its safety. Tens of thousands in it. People are lying about the vaccine in order to stir up opposition to taking it. Put another way, people are willing to kill people with lies to win political points.
But it did go through safety testing. One of the reasons they didn’t approve it at first for different groups was because they needed to finish safety testing for those groups before approving it.
@@Highbrowser How much more illogical can you possibly be Highbrow?
You are still trying to make the same ridiculous claim that those of us who decided NOT to get vaccinated were putting at risk the lives of those who DID get vaccinated?
Some people are so immune to logic and reasoning that further discussion is futile.
@@johnnynick6179 Do you know how herd immunity actually works? When we had 90-95% infection prevention, and transmission interference on top of that, it would have been nice if we didn't have people acting as a reservoir to keep the disease spreading around.
People want to be seen as smart or brilliant, and they think it's all about the powers of reasoning. The reality is, 80% of it is about recognizing the limits of those powers and putting what you think you know to the test.
@@Highbrowser Here's another Einstein who refuses to use reason and logic because his "masters" tell him that "THEY" are science.... and nobody else should use their own rational minds.
If the vaccine actually worked, the unvaccinated, the people you refer to as reservoirs for the virus, would not be a threat to those of you who were immunized. YOU would be protected from THEM.
If the vaccine didn't work... the unvaccinated would be no more of a threat to you than the vaccinated.
What part of that is so hard for you to understand? Should I type slower...or write it in crayon?
I am not AT ALL optimistic about the decency and responsibility of my fellow chimps, but I am STILL a Libertarian (although I don't use the label) because I believe it is essentially wrong to use force and coercion to compel another free human.
You're not free to play a game of chess unless you first agree with the other person to collaborate in obeying the rules of the pieces, such that the game can operate. The only true libertarianism is to not play at all, in which case you'd be outside of society.
The biggest issue in the world IMO, is not that the rules exist, but rather that the rules are enforced by those who are ensuring such rules are stacked in their favour, rigging the game. Libertarianism isn''t the answer to that, accountability and transparency is (although it's very hard and will take a long time to shift society in that direction, especially with traditionalists and conservatives vociferously defending the status quo.) Libertarianism is the opposite of accountability, and is no solution.
Also please do not cut me down with the Masamune, oh great Sephiroth.
Guess most of the idiots who stormed the capitol would call themselves libertarians, ironic , they were certainly trying to force an agenda and coerce an outcome on a free voting public.
What do you make of the social contractarian foundations of government, though? According to that line of analysis, it's not that the state forces anyone to do anything, unconditionally; rather, it's that each citizen makes the conscious *choice* to live under state power, in order to enjoy the various advantages it confers (public infrastructure, policing of property rights, etc), and agrees to certain sacrifices in return. Force and coercion would be horrific, undoubtedly, if government wasn't predicated upon the consent of the governed. But it is. Anyone who opposes the exchange I've described -- narrowly limiting certain liberties in exchange for protection, welfare, etc -- is free to opt out of the social contract: they can renounce citizenship and either emigrate to a different state or agree to be stateless altogether.
This guy is not a libertarian.
what gave it away? the part where he said that?
A lot of what he says resonates with me. I thought Libertarianism had a lot going for it... until I discovered what most Libertarians think and believe...
They believe that they are better than you and that you should be their slaves. ;-)
He’s got a good point, anarchism or libertarianism won’t work if we don’t work together
Neither anarchism not libertarianism are designed to work. They are designed to work for a very small class of select individuals who feel special about themselves. Some of us call these people "psychopaths". ;-)
@@schmetterling4477 I'm so glad I'm a psychopath to someone like you.
You can see something as a scientific breakthrough and an impressive feat of organization ...while still be against the use of force to implement its adoption en mass.
It should be up to the individual to decide if they want to inject themselves with a novel, revolutionary technology never seen before and produced in record time outside the usual process of checks and balances. I cant believe we have to spell that out.
Novel and never seen before except for 50 years
Liberty and self reliance first. He was never a libertarian
Guess he thinks too much
Anybody who takes the tenents of libertarianism seriously, even silly, pro-capitalist right-wing American "libertarianism", will eventually question their association with the mainstream big-L Libertarian political institutionism or will wake up one day and find themselves supporting a political ideology that is as far from true political liberty as it is possible to be without becoming an absolute monarchist.
The scary part of that is the folks that never notice that contradiction.
So what does Penn think now in 2024?
It's obvious he doesn't think at all these days.
Graduating from clown college has finally paid off for Penn Jillette. Congratulations to him.
yea college brainwashed him LMAO. look at articles from 2016 about penn jillete on trump. he loved the guy. now these articles from like 2019 and on are about him bashing the very same guy. "paid off". your thinking is a disease to the country I call home.
Penn is clueless.
I think you mean 'Penn was clueless.' But he kept thinking. Try it.@@chriscosby2459
Not a single argument against the validity of the non aggression principle. If people are bad, we can’t have a state which bad people will occupy and coerce others.
The ambivalence of human nature must be recognized. The same person can be at once good and bad, pure and corrupt, loyal and treacherous. It is nobody's fault and we cannot escape our accountability to each other.
Ok but we don't live in the abstract, we live in a world where communism exists and explicitly requires it's believers to violently take over the whole world.
The problem with libertarian/ancap talking points is that it seeks to invalidate and dismantle the ONE obstacle that has stood in the way of actual global conquest by communists for 80 years. The lines all originate from communists because that's who will benefit the most if y'all open the gates from within. You really think you'll just get to live in total liberty and that the CCP won't simply take out the unorganized individualists one by one while they claim the spoils?
@@HarbingerOfBattle Wait.... if somebody chooses to be bad - if they murder - steal - rape - it's NOT THEIR FAULT???
REALLY???
The delusion is strong in this one.
@@johnnynick3621 Wow…just wow. You missed the point entirely.
@@HarbingerOfBattle _"The same person can be at once good and bad, pure and corrupt, loyal and treacherous. It is nobody's fault and we cannot escape our accountability to each another._"
I am interpreting this in English - perhaps you meant to write it in another language. If the same person can be good and bad - and it's not their fault when they are bad - then who is accountable when bad people do bad things? If someone were to purposely cause you grave harm - is it "NOT their fault".
Spite is just as bad as cynicism
His mask take didn’t age well.
Why’s that?
@@Vilblue because there was never good evidence for them. There was evidence against.
bullshit
@@joshuascholar3220 🤣🤦♂️. On what basis is it “bullshit”? Just because you say so?
@@joshuascholar3220 ?
I don't understand how libertarians can't foresee their policies leading to corporations owning and charging you for literally everything.
Who will regulate the state that regulates the corporations?
@@Simpleton_X literally any outside regulatory agency would be far superior to allowing corporations to regulate themselves, for what should be incredibly obvious reasons.
@@Colin-kh6kp Full blown Capitalism does NOT mean corporations.... or anyone else.... can do whatever they want. Capitalism requires that government protect individual rights. That includes protecting individual rights from corporations.
What protections are you seeking? Do you believe you have the "RIGHT" to a job? Or a "RIGHT" to housing? A "RIGHT" to medical care.... or a "RIGHT" to a free college education?
What "RIGHTS" are you seeking that you believe a true Capitalist society will not provide?
Because corporations can only exist with a limited liability provided by their friends in ....big government
cause he know's hes wrong
As a libertarian, I never understood the mask and vaccine mandates. If they work, you are not reliant on me, your mask will protect you, won't it? Why do I have to get vaccinated? Your vaccine will protect you from me, won't it? If the answer is no to either, then why are we doing them. That being said, I did wear a mask and get vaccinated. But, it was MY choice!
From a public health standpoint, vaccines and masks are about protecting the group not just the individual. No vaccine is 100% effective, but we can, in fact, eradicate a disease if nearly everyone is vaccinated. Similarly, no mask is 100% effective. But we can radically reduce the spread of the disease if everyone is masked. However, this public health strategy, which we have used countless times to reduce or eliminate diseases, requires that the vast majority of people buy into the notion of voluntarily doing something for the common good, even if they don't personally feel that the risk effects them. And, yes, it is not something that fits nicely into a libertarian mindset.
@@douglasschnabel4480It would be nice if they actually tested the vaccines to make sure they work before cajoling the public to get them. But Pfizer told the EU they didn't test for that.
Masks stops you from spitting and throwing your germs in the air. That’s the real reason to wear masks. Don’t believe in vaccines? What polio vaccine? How did polio almost get wiped out if they don’t work?
youtube isnt letting me view the replies so apologies if this has already been said... although it is true that vaccines protect you, masks dont really protect you, they prevent the spread of disease by stopping the water droplets carrying the disease from escaping (as far) into the open air, but it doesnt prevent you from getting sick if some chucklenut coughs in your face. i.e. it protects others rather than yourself in the majority of circumstances... of course meaning you should wear them if you have any compassion for others
@@douglasschnabel4480 The chemical they injected you with was not a vaccine. It did NOT stop you from getting the disease and it did NOT stop you from spreading the disease. Those of you who consented to being guinea pigs of your own free-will have my thanks. I waited to see if YOU would be protected from getting sick before I would consider being injected. Once it became apparent that you were still likely to catch the disease after being injected, my decision was easy. Thank You.
Penn Jilette is all about freedom of choice, just until you choose to do the things he doesn't like. 👍
He's just more mature than you. Accept when someone changes their opinions. What of the many Republicans that become switch to Libertarians, then?
What you’re saying comes off a little like infantilism.
Aside from genuine anarchists, this is how everyone views society. Do you envy a society in which everyone is permitted to do literally anything including the most heinous acts of crime? If not, then you second this sentiment.
@@cameronf.4119There is no "permitted" in anarchy. There is only what you think you can get away with. If there's anarchy and you do something violent enough odds are someone is going to harm you as a consequence so good luck with that. Nobody's gonna do anything if you just don't wear a mask. You need big govt and boys in blue to enforce laws against non violent crimes.
Actually he's just all about freedom of choice. What delusion led you to say that last bit?
Oh how bad this has aged.
Love Penn, always liked his honesty. Libertarianism in America has definitely been co-opted by ancap goons. Left-libertarianism is where it's at.
?? Left Libertarianism is what Penn has always railed against.
@jeffschwartz4t.o.council-j132 Because that's the reality. Look at Unions. They use coercion and violence to force workers to join. One example of many.
It’s unfortunate how much penn’s view of his own community with the same political think was that foggy. The greed and regression of many libertarians were 20/20-clear
Lol Not see
He described a commune and said that's what he thought Libertarianism was. He is a smart guy but he's so heavily deluded.
He is not. As a registered libertarian for two decades (independent now), the VOLUNTARY commune structure was widely subscribed. People living freely of their own accord, dividing the labor as they see fit -- these ideals are not incompatible with libertarianism in the slightest. Authoritarian communISM is a different matter.
libertarianism has its roots in the left wing so idk what youre on about man
A self-organized, voluntary community with shared property is as libertarian as it gets.
@@shionyr so a commune, the thing that communism advocates for... which is why libertarianism was initially a left-wing movement that fell in-line with socialists and communists. It only when Americans began including economic freedom and profess the freedom of business that it became right wing. What Penn is describing is far more left wing than right wing and is deeply departed from the type of libertarianism we see today, specifically in the United States
@@xCandieAndiex agreed. I'd also add that the term "communism" was firmly authoritarian by the mid century, around the same time that "libertarianism" started to gain a harder-right bent. Crazy to see how things developed.
What part of the government lying or being incompetent did Penn forget?
Libertarianism is about more than irrational fear and hatred for things you don't fully understand, mike.
@itmeurdad Yes and many libertarians showed they don't actually understand libertarianism.
Penn just doesn’t want to get accused of being a “white supremacist”. Lots of people denounced classical liberalism/libertarian thought when being a progressive leftist became in vogue
Most of it, apparently.
bruh, they made a vaccine IN 3 DAYS!!
"They developed vaccine in 3 days..."
To believe that requires pathological optimism.
3 days is about right if you only test it on mice.
You know, like the last couple boosters.
Doesn't mean they didn't test it for almost a year before allowing the public to use it.
@mikeellement1567
It also ignores the fact that they were building off of studies from decades earlier...which is what I was hinting at with my original comment. Had that information not been readily available, the timeline would have looked very different.
@@Bardineer Penn was just being hyperbolic.
@@ProHumanity
Good for him. My point stands.
Sure the guy who said airport security was a violation of the 4th amendment now makes the argument that forcing people to wear ineffective masks is necessary for the public good and he's not a hypocrite.
He did not make an argument for mandatory masks. His turning point was about people assuming he was anti mask. Anti mandate is about you looking at the current facts and making your own decision. In the beginning, thinking of the people around me, using the facts I had at the time, I decided for myself and the people around me that masks and the vaccine was the responsible choice for me to make. Everyone else should have also had the freedom to determine for themselves what the best course of action was.
@@toby2581 GREAT POINT Toby!
@@meganwhite7330 So you did not do much research, you probably listened to the news or a doctor that was afraid of losing his license. There was ample evidence that masking would have no effect on the trajectory of the virus. The vaccine was a fool's errand and something Fauci had advocated against prior to Covid. This is why we don't have a cold virus shot. The mutations are too rapid so the vaccine becomes ineffective before it can be administered to the population.
@@toby2581 Yesssirrr
Actually he said people SHOULDN'T be forced to wear masks, but people SHOULD do it to benefit others. He made the stance that it should your choice. Think of him as pro choice when it comes to the mask and vaccines. This is a libertarian point of you: it's your choice. He's basically using herd theory.
From about 15 to 21, I was a small government libertarian. (partially because of penn and his show) What made me stop being a small government libertarian, besides the realization that companies are governments within themselves, was the extreme apathy libertarians had towards the sick and injured.
2008 was an interesting year. It seems Penn experienced my 2008 in 2020.
Massive government really cares about the sick and injured. That’s why healthcare costs have skyrocketed.
@@RM-jb2bv No, because the healthcare companies are still greedy, and people like you fight to keep them free to indulge that greed at everybody else's expense.
@@RM-jb2bv The problem with whataboutism is that it accepts the statement it's attempting to counter. Saying that massive government is apathetic to the sick and injured does not refute the claim that libertarians are apathetic to the sick and injured. Both can be true at the same time. Your statement ultimately implies that you think both claims are true.
So let me get this straight, Leif.....
You care so very deeply for the sick and injured that you want to take money away from those who earned it.... by FORCE.... with the threat of prison.... so that somebody else can help those who are sick and injured.
Is that REALLY your moral position?
You want to FORCE people to do with their life's blood what YOU consider more important than what they want to use it for?
That's your morality?
Why not just use FORCE... and the threat of prison to make doctors and nurses help the sick and injured for free? Why not use FORCE against the scientists to work longer hours until they come up with a cure for every disease? Perhaps you should FORCE people with two healthy kidneys to "donate" one to those who are in need.
Wow. That's a lot of FORCE.
And you claim you were once a Libertarian.... a believer in freedom and liberty.
You were much smarter when you were 15 and you believed you had a right to live your own life and did NOT deserve to be a slave to everyone else.
@@johnnynick6179 If you put the word force in all caps it becomes evil.
I’m baffled by how someone couldn’t be skeptical of a vaccine that was developed in 3 days for a disease that was previously seen as “untreatable”
Yes, having had an ancillary role in phase 1 testing for two decades, generally, it takes 10 years for a new medication to receive approval. Seven years is fast five years is unheard of five months is insanity.
He believes in Scientism not science. He doesn't understand that vaccine injuries can manifest years after you take it so we require massive testing to prevent harmful side effects. He threw all that information away because science had done something new and fancy. Penn is a fraud.
None of this has to deal with libertarianism fundamentally. People have the right to be stupid.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
People being stupid hurts others and create pain and suffering.
Is all the pain and suffering worth just to ensure the "right to be stupid"?
I don't think so.
Penn’s point is people are doing stupid things because they think that’s what freedom means. Freedom means you can be stupid but it doesn’t mean you have to be stupid.
He’s correct and all the infantile people in the comments are proving him right.
Don’t take the comments section so personally …
Instead , worry about you and your children being ‘up-to-date’ with the BOOSTERS 💉
As a fan of his old showtime show.. this is just sad.
So Penn Jellette’s stance is that not forcing people to do something is good… as long as they agree with you, and are going to do that thing you were going to force them to do anyway. That’s a perverted idea of freedom.
His stance was "if you give people the choice, they'll choose the right thing"
Now he acknowledges that people are too stupid and selfish to choose to do the right thing.
No, he''s not opposed to people deciding differently. You can say "hey guys, please do this" while still advocating that the government not mandate it.
Speaking of a "perverted" idea of Freedom; yours is one you will never have. If society or government disallows you from freely doing *anything*, you'll cry that you dont have "Freedom". Maybe try an ideology that requires you to think through problems, instead of short circuiting your brain with emotional buzzwords.
So I became another wealthy democrat
Libertarianism, I got my shit now keep away.
No.... Libertarianism.... I worked hard for my shit.... keep your hands off my stash. If you want to EARN some for yourself, I'll give you a job... but nothing in life is FREE!
@@johnnynick6179 dolt.
Decrease in testosterone
Except the Cochrane study showed masks don’t work and the FDA said the vaccines weren't intended to prevent infection or transmission.
Oh and for a while Fauci said don’t wear masks.
So do vaccines go through rigorous safety testing or are they pumped out in 3 days?
You are so cute when you are begging for attention. ;-)
If you actually read the study (don’t just cite it randomly) you’d know the study itself admitted that it did NOT prove masks don’t work. Do some reading before humiliating yourself.
@@Vilblue
98% of people were wearing T-Shirt material for masks.
Why do you folks insist on continued deception ?
Everyone can be libertarian until they are scared.
Penn got scared ?
@@4gegtyreeyuyeddffvyt "I voluntarily chose to follow the recommended safety practices of the time" = scared, apparently.
I mean, I choose to wear a seatbelt even though I've never personally had my life saved by one, and despite my friend having her collar bone broken by one when she got in an accident, I still follow the safety data indicating it will make me ~90% less likely to die in a crash. Must mean I'm a coward!
So don't be weak and dependent. There is no fear when you're strong and self sufficient.
Libertarian principles are supposed to derive from the "non-aggression principle". Jillette's ideas on what libertarian "is" seem to be conflated with something else. Unfortunately, his perspective on the experimental mRNA shot deemed a "vaccine" is once again showing him to be confused. It may be unreasonable to try to get society to a place of 100% non-aggression based interaction, but that is the libertarian goal and not a bad one at that I might add.
It's not experimental. Troll harder.
You've gone wrong Penn. When did you accept wrong so hard. Time to step back and reanalyze your position considering what we know now.
which is?
@@synovialpith That there was NO vaccine. The experimental drug they were injecting into your body did NOT stop you from getting the disease or from spreading the disease. It may or it may not have reduced the severity of the illness - a claim that can NEVER be proven - but that's called a therapeutic drug - which has NO EFFECT on stopping the spread of the disease.
I have almost his entire set of his old show Bullshit, on DVDs. His idea of ‘libertarianism’ as ‘responsibility for others’ was not what I ever heard or saw during any of the episodes.
Did you see his vaccine videos, or his subsidy videos? I respectfully disagree with you.
@@wednesdayschild3627 I’m talking about his dvds which were released years ago which had nothing about vaccines
@@sashatagger3858 Yes, they had a whole episode on vaccines and how stupid the anti-vaccine movement is.
@@laurencewhite4809 your right that episode is from 2010 not from the vintage collection of which I own many copies of. I notice it’s mostly about autism and the vaccines. Not mRNA vaccines and COVID or anything related to that. It’s also their last episode it seems. And again I’m not surprised that it perhaps is a more recent episode because Penn has jumped the shark and descended (in much the same way Mr Sam Harris has in to intellectual lunacy) after contracting another type of virus, Trump derangement syndrome. Voting Democrat in the last two elections, abandoning pretty much something to the effect of 90% of his life espousing true libertarian principles and values. No other libertarian or serious thinker I’ve seen besides the other person just mentioned has done this sort of bizarre and betrayal of years of long held beliefs because of his dislike of just one man.
Doing a complete change in his thinking and politics surrounding basically everything, because of Trump.
That’s not the behaviour of the serious thinker I grew up to know and admire. It looks almost like sadly someone has lost their marbles.
@@sashatagger3858 They did an entire episode on how miraculous vaccines are and how horrible anti-vaccine movements are.
On the same page with Penn I believe in germ 🦠 theory.
"They developed that vaccine in 3 days!"
Yeah, nothing to be concerned about that.
I love Penn but that's a very fair comment.
@StevenShilling Governments at all times are either lying or incompetent.
It's like in March 2020 some of us forgot what made us libertarians in the first place.
penn (and other atheists like him) have replaced one version of "god" with another version of "god" that they call science. this is arguably an even dumber worldview than even the craziest religious cult that has ever existed. also libertarianism means you generally have blind faith that corporations like pfizer are somehow holy and good and if the "free market" doesn't run them out of business, then these corporations must clearly remain holy and good, despite things like being literally fined tons of money for admitting in court that they created the opioid epidemic on purpose and knew what they were doing. i love penn as a person, and appreciate everything he's brought to the magic world and otherwise. but he is clearly a religious zealot - his religious views are his dogmatic version of "science"-worshiping atheism and corporation-worshiping libertarianism, and he's always working backwards from these false conclusions that he's built his entire worldview around.
@LarsBAmble Get rid of governments and you get rid of corporations since corporations become that through government charters.
@@adesignersperspectiveOh and I'm an atheist too. I just understand that governments are at all times either lying or incompetent.
This didn’t age well
Yes it did.
Penn, I love you but even you have to admit that this interview didn’t age well on many facets.
How am i just coming across this in 2024?
Come to the dark side, Penn. Become a pessimist, and no one will ever disappoint you again.
But seriously, having just a passing knowledge of history...check that... just driving somewhere on the freeway, you obtain concrete evidence that most people are selfish bastards.
Tool
He should talk about being on The G Word with Adam Conover.
Individual responsibility with the goal of social benefit, that kind of libertarianism sounds awfully socialist
That's because liberals hijacked the word "libertarian" from Anarchists and Communists.
The covid thing was so stupid. Penn kind of fell into it.
I think that if you are unapologetic in your beliefs as a libertarian, you agree with everything Penn just said. What seems to have happened, is some libertarians forgot to hold on to their principles, or did not really have internally consistent principals to begin with, and got sucked into the Ron DeSantis mentality of reflexively doing the opposite of the thing you hate most. For example, "I hate mandates on X. Therefore, I think there should be mandates against mandates-on-X." That backwards logic is DeSantis's path to authoritarianism. And in these few cases, that same backwards logic to authoritarianism gripped some libertarians who listened to anger, told themselves it was reason, and were too angry to see that reason was not the main driver.
Libertarianism is still fine. Classical Liberalism is still fine. Neither of those concepts has gone anywhere. What has changed is that Penn Jillette used to be the loudest, most obnoxious libertarian out there, and that drove Bullshit, and that was great. Now, the loudest, most obnoxious libertarians are folks who watched Bullshit, took the faux anger and made it real, and took too much of the reason and logic that actually made the show work, and left it behind.
The only libertarian principle was always "Me! Me! Me! Me! Me! Me!...". It's the temper tantrum of the eternal three year old who doesn't have enough blood sugar. :-)
Ooops.
An optimistic skeptic.
It seems like optimism, at a certain point, cancels out skepticism.
When a new type of "vaccine" is developed in 3 days with new untested technology, it deserves skepticism, not praise
Except this optomist once said global warming was a phony issue being used by socialists to justify controlling free enterprise. That doesn't seem to come from a position of optimism, just blind faith in Ryandian doctrine. I don't believe every businessman is evil, but the factory that can dump their waste in a river will bankrupt their competitor, and hoping that they will both magically be nice seems beyond naievety
I'm a full-on pessimist. That's why I'm a Libertarian.
@@Proud_Troll you didn’t quite understand what Penn was talking about, did you ?
@@sawtooth808 Pretty sure I did. What do you think I didn't understand?
But you see, that was exactly why I didn't get it. It was developed in 3 god damned days, then rushed through approval. It hadn't been properly tested, and the coof had a kill rate of roughly .5% at the time, if memory serves, and even better survival rates in my age group. Do I take an experimental shot, or gamble on the .5? the choice was pretty clear.
Freedom without accountability.
Always had so much respect for Penn. Even if I’ve often thought a lot of his views were kind out there and crazy, it’s clear he came to to them through honest reasoning and principles he cares about and I’ve always deeply admired the way he treats and talks about other people.
So basically “I want people to have freedom unless I disagree with them”. Very brave stance!
I'm a cynical Libertarian! :)
I think most of us are. Or maybe I'm just projecting.
@@jordandale85 I'm cynic and that is why I'm libertarian.
Antivirals on one hand , no doctors educating on monoclonal antibody therapy. I.E. a twenty minute IV infusion & ride home. To full hositals not treating stroke patints, fully. Bomarded facilities with no other care served.
Penn's views aren't conflicting. Social responsibility without a government mandate means that we do the right thing socially and stand up to the bullshit of what is actually wrong. I'm a libertarian and believe that open carrying a firearm should be legal everywhere the public has access to in the country, but at the same time, that doesn't mean you should do it.
Great. So you are a very nice person, but a political illiterate.
Dont get me wrong...thats still better than those libertarians who are not even nice people.
@empirelee7676 How am I a political illiterate? You just said something just to say it and offered no counterargument.
Sure, and I should be able to walk around town with weaponized anthrax is in my pockets.
@@printingwithpeek4897 "How am I a political illiterate?"
Says the guy who wants people carrying guns at high school football games.
@@redrick8900 Yda......okay?
So... I am an active Libertarian and see exactly why Penn was upset. Something he may not realize is that in many ways Covid divided the Libertarian Party. There are a ton of Libertarians who agree with him, at least with how many Libertarians behaved with Covid. However, most of us will agree that just because we feel that personal responsibility (mask wearing/vaccination) is the right thing to do, doesn't mean that government force, government shutdowns, etc were the right solution. If you don't like the Libertarians who made different choices than you, set the example. There is no perfect world where everyone just does the right thing, or what you think the right thing should be.
I am vaccinated. i wear a mask. Even today I wore a mask, but that doesn't mean I think it should be forced on people. I am not embarrassed or ashamed of Libertarians (or anyone else) that made a different choice than me. I try to set an example and socially influence people. Libertarianism is live and let live -- not you have to do everything I think you should.
You're vaccinated and still wear a mask? What's the purpose of that? I understand if you're sick, then it makes sense to wear a mask just like Japanese people have done since way before COVID since it's courteous to prevent others from becoming sick. Otherwise though it just makes things harder for everyone you interact with.
Not saying you shouldn't, I just don't get it. I suppose some people could completely isolate themselves within a plastic ball and oxygen tank so that everyone's safe from everything. I just wonder at what point do you think that maybe the cons significantly outweigh the benefits?
@@sweetnumb what are the cons of wearing a mask? Other than getting grief from other people, I don't see it. Live and live... ya know.
@@pattyforliberty
If you don’t see the “symbolic” cons of mask wearing ( especially when not necessary or appropriate ) , then you will never understand 🤷
@Angelo Zachos I see the "symbolic cons" I just think the right does just as much fear mongering as the left. And being hyperreactive is part of what is wrong with our current right/left political system.
@@pattyforlibertyChildren's speech development has slowed by 6 months.
I'm a Libertarian. And rights always come with responsibilities. They are two sides of the same coin. My wanting a defense of my rights to life, liberty and property means I also have a responsibility to defend the equal rights to life, liberty and property of others. I defend your rights to wear a mask, even as I oppose forcing people to wear masks. And the government responses to the Cvd situation will wind up killing more people than the virs itself.
I left libertarianism as I became more empathetic. Conservatives and libertarians in general lack empathy for others. There are exceptions, but generally speaking the above is true.
Bullshit. Libertarianism and conservatism has nothing to do with empathy. It's the left's solutions to those problems that are the difference. And the solutions to those problems seem more like enabling, is where the true difference is.
I used to consider myself a libertarian, but I eventually decided I should look into whether these welfare programs I claimed were bad actually helped people and then I found out that the real world data didn't really support my world view as much as I had assumed, so I changed my view. It seems like a Iot of libertarians repeat an idea of what they BELIEVE should happen based on models which don't match up to real world data.
@@danielzhender660 So your NEW worldview permits the enslavement of the most productive, the highest achievers, the creators of all that benefits mankind - to the wants and needs of the highest number of needy people.
Got it.
Who says we get smarter as we age. Here's contrary proof.
Because there is empathy in political discourse so that is an asinine statement. You are not empathetic if you advocate for a violent state enforcing arbitrary laws.
@@danielzhender660 The welfare programs are disastrous failures. Poverty has increased with welfare programs so they just steal from the population to give bureaucrats jobs. What evidence you found that refutes this should be highly questioned, I imagine it originated with some government entity.
100% agree with Penn here. I was a Libertarian around that time and was starting to see a lot of the flaws in it but the whole mask drama was just the final nail in the coffin precisely because of the reason he described. They weren't advocating to just not have a mask mandate and to wear it voluntarily instead, but rather they just simply didn't want to be told what to do. It just showed how weak the ideology is when it comes to handling a variety of political situations, and, as Penn said, how little a lot of them cared about other people.
Back then I asked my doctor whether wearing a mask would help stop the spread of the virus. He explained to me that the virus, including the water droplet holding it, was so small, and the pores on a face mask were so large in comparison, that trying to stop the spread of the virus using a mask was like trying to stop mosquitoes from invading your yard by installing a really high chain-link fence.
The only way a mask would stop the virus was to make it so dense that you could NOT breathe through it. We would all need to carry oxygen tanks around.
Yeah, you and Penn were good little sheeple. You did exactly as you were told. You proved you cared for other people. Can't wait to see how high you can jump next time they tell you to.
@@johnnynick3621 No I disagree. Do some droplets escape the masks? Yea of course. They aren't 100% effective, and efficacy can depend on mask type. But does it block a lot of the bigger droplets? Yes, most definitely. You don't have to take my word for it. There are plenty of studies and visual simulations that clearly show they prevent the spread and block a lot of droplets from escaping.
Hell, we don't even have to go that far. Just ask yourself whether you would want someone to sneeze in you face with them wearing a mask or without them wearing a mask. The answer to that is obvious, and the reason for that answer is also obvious, because it blocks bigger droplets from landing on you. This is the same reason why doctors wear masks when performing surgeries or when patients have highly transmissable diseases.
@@johnnynick3621All evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of masking reducing the risk of spread. But I'm pretty sure your story about "my [your] doctor" is made up. Either that, or your doctor is actually ignorant and an anti-masker himself.
'just simply didn't want to be told what to do.'
Yeah that's a fundamemental tenet of the ideology, you were clearly never a libertarian but heard something that sounded good and labeled yourself as such. Now you've heard something else and you follow that blindly too even though they are diametrically opposed. In short, you are a suggestible follower.
Right there with you - I identified as libertarian until recently. People who habitually do the opposite of what they're told are just as controlled as the "sheeple" they claim to be smarter than. It's like they never emotionally actuated out of throwing tantrums when their parents made them do less-than-fun things, and have turned it into a political ideology in adulthood.
I get that vibe from the Mises leadership, and it's disappointing that they're steering the party in a certain "anti-woke" direction and taking a stronger stance supporting extreme States' rights (which FYI are also governments capable of tyranny). I guess to pull in frustrated far-right voters from the Republican Party?
Reminds me of an old neighbor who just let trash pile up in their yard because they didn't want a government telling them what to do with it. Place was a rat farm with a tiny walkway between rusty metal and oily mud. Pathetic.
There is a reason behind anti-vax. Penn can have his opinions, just like any other citizen
Dont agree with penn .but what a cool name..
Penn jillette is a National Treasure.
When I looked at libertarianism. I saw this naivety that everyone and corporation would do the right thing. A brief glance at history shows this to be not true. In any society there need s to be enforceable rules and regulations.
Libertarianism does not work in any real way. The fact that he has finally started to see this is a good thing. The whole anti-vax and mask movement. Showed that in libertarian thought that any reasonable efforts at keeping people safe was not going to fly. This is not how society works. We are all in this together. Sometimes we need for the good of society do or refrain from doing things that would harm not just oneself, but others. Unless of course you think shouting someone on 5th avenue is just fone by you or driving drunk is OK.
Exactly. And having "faith" in profiteering corporations to "do the right thing" is childishly naïve. The environment would be in an even worse state than it already is with global libertarianism.
As opposed to the naivety that the government would do the right thing?
@@zachjohnson637 The government does the right thing when the people stand up and have the political will. Libertarian believe that a corporation will naturally do the right thing with out government oversight, regulations, or law to force them.. So who is being naïve here..Clue it is not me.
So if people can't be trusted to do the right thing, why give a small group of said people tyrannical rule over you? Your entire worldview can be dismantled by a 5 year old.
@@dennisdeal3323 Libertarianism is not about believing that corporations will "do the right thing" (whatever that means), nor is it about believing in a society without laws or rules. It is much easier to hold a private business accountable for doing something wrong than it is the government.
1:06 wants people to protect each other 1:35
The anti mask movement was not about not wearing masks, it was about not being forced to do so.
Then there is another group of people, of which I'm part of, who believe that masks were always useless, as backed up by every scientific study.
If the anti-mask movement started out as supposedly about the choice to risk your health and the health of others, it quickly morphed into a fervrent crusade to prevent anyone from wearing masks, even if they wanted to. This includes preventing people from entering places of business if they wore masks, verbally harassing in the streets people who chose to wear masks, even assaulting people by taking their masks off by force.
@@helbent4 People were told by the government that "your immune system doesn't exist". People who listened to the government only helped the government cause problems. Even Fauci said from the start that "masks are not necessary" but then changed him mind. Please take your "I know what's best for you" nonsense somewhere else. We don't need or want that.
You should probably re-read the Cochrane article. They issued a statement clarifying it because so many people misunderstood it. It showed a lack of evidence of *mask mandates* working. It did not say that masks didn’t work.
In fact, there is strong evidence that masks do work to prevent the spread of respiratory illness. It just doesn't come from RCTs. It comes from Kansas. In July 2020 the governor of Kansas issued an executive order requiring masks in public places. Just a few weeks earlier, however, the legislature had passed a bill authorizing counties to opt out of any statewide provision. In the months that followed, COVID rates decreased in all 24 counties with mask mandates and continued to increase in 81 other counties that opted out of them.
Another study found that states with mask mandates saw a significant decline in the rate of COVID spread within just days of mandate orders being signed. The authors concluded that in the study period-March 31 to May 22, 2020-more than 200,000 cases were avoided, saving money, suffering and lives.
Libertarianism is all about SELFISHNESS and GREED! Your obligations to your fellow man are important but minimal. Mostly don't use force. Partially don't lie or betray. Be humane, decent, empathetic, and cooperative. But true libertarianism is hugely and rightly SELF-CENTERED.
Penn misses the boat.
Libertarianism is about RATIONAL self-interest. I am only interested in helping those of my fellow men that I deem worthy of my help and support. I am under NO OBLIGATION to help anyone.... but rationally.... when I find an intelligent, logical, hard-working person who has had a bad experience it is in MY BEST INTEREST to help him get back on his feet. That makes MY WORLD a better place.
Helping some self-sabotaging drug addled unproductive mooch is NOT in my best interest and I have NO desire to help him.
Unfortunately, within the libertarian movement, the co-opting of the movement happened way before trump's political reign. Rand Paul for example. People like Rand helped move the movement far to the right-wing. Just like the Clintons helped to move the democrat party further right. And I'm also seeing that trend within the Leftist movement. So many disingenuous people co-opting movements.
How did Ron Paul do that? People on the left reject libertarianism. The movement has stayed where it was. The left just kept going further left.
@@gottroubletactical He supports anything Trump does. Trump is a far right-winger. And democrats are not "the left". They are center / right-wing.
When you know people who were personally harmed by that thing, maybe then you will know why people don't blinding trust fascist interventions. Glad Penn left the LP. If only all the other ones like him would also leave. The anti face diaper ralleys were held by people that knew they had been used in past epidemics and didn't help. They don't work for viruses which is why they are never encouraged during flu season either. Some people can think critically, Penn has apparently lost that ability.
His views on vaccines didn’t age well ….. :/
or masks. the whole clip is sour milk, and pretty sad
"The vaccines were like the moon landing times 10."
Honestly, I think past a certain age people should give up on holding political opinions.
I would say that they did, unfortunately you now have anti Vaxxers on school boards (WTF 😳)
Covid exposed/ended a lot of fake libertarians. Penn is one of them.
Yea, but I think most of us were and are surprised by the existence of crazy anti-vaxxers. Imagine being that ignorant. I certainly didn't see the modern anti-vax movement coming, and neither did Penn. What a pox those fools are, pun intended.
We hate them for the content of their character...
Libertarianism sounds good on paper until you meet someone who actually claims to be such
The social theory of a**holism doesn't even sound good on paper.
This is lazy propaganda
Love u Penn jilette
“I’m a libertarian and I have no idea what libertarianism means”.
This is the reason why jobody can take the party seriously. There’s too many like Penn.
Don't call yourself a Libertarian if you're going to talk like that.
The Libertarian Party will never be taken seriously because the set of values it represents sound good on the surface (and even then, some don't), but they aren't aligned with practical realities of public policy.
@@markanderson100 That means you have zero understanding of the LP or Libertarians in general.
@@TimothyOBrien1958 Lol sure.
@@markanderson100 No, really.
The sign of a mature individual is to be able to modify or abandon strong held beliefs that he or she held and be OK with it.
Michael Pantazis
Thank God
Randomize
And a business should be able to refuse service if you weren't wearing a mask
Libertarians would agree with that.
Another sellout
Libertarianism has meant "I got mine, the rest can pound salt" forever. I don't know what he was imaging being Libertarian would amount to, given the movement's history & selfish characters.
And yet "Libertarian" started OUT meaning what he thought it did. That word was deliberately stolen by right wingers and deliberately destroyed.
He and I follow the same trajectory. Someone called me and wanted me to be against any affordable housing. I am a religios person. The worst for me was to see people not listen to faith leaders who told them to take care of their fellow men.
Depends on whos paying otherwise you are impeding on someone else's liberty
How much do you do to take care of "your fellow men"?
The biggest obstacle to affordable housing is government intervention in the market.
If you're religious then penn thanks! You're delusional
This isn't about compassion, this is about the reality of it.
Every single time the government gets its nose into the economy, things shatter. EVERY SINGLE TIME WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
Almost every time you remove government from a field, the free market takes over and improves it drastically.
Doug Stanhope and Penn Jillette, man my favourite libertarians keep leaving the movement lol
Trump Derangement Syndrome makes people turn kookoo.
Should tell you something
I think it’s that they are genuinely libertarian, and a lot of new “libertarians” are just far right crazies who took over a good chunk of the space
@@TheDeadred123 I’m a libertarian since the womb and that description doesn’t fit me whatsoever.
@@TheDeadred123 and I stand by my comment that it’s Trump Derangement Syndrome that’s the cause her.
What a maroon.