INTERmission Theory: Two Worlds, Zack & The Final Fantasy 7 Remake X Crisis Core Story Merge!
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Late to finishing episode Yuffie & joining the Final Fantasy 7 Remake INTERmission DLC theory train, but boy is this theory train about to load! We now have more story hints, details, symbolism & tinfoil hat potentials to unravel and the Yuffie DLC has shot me to the two worlds idea. Could Square Enix be looking to introduce, just like Dirge Of Cerberus elements in the Yuffie DLC, a Crisis Core styled journey with Zack? Zack on the OG timeline now acting as an unaware lifestream guardian? The hero who travels the lifestream safeguarding the last remaining of safe havens in the lifestream. Including Aerith’s church which she set up in FF7 Remake? Is the lifestream one big multi-layered sandwich and the whispers have been given form through the power of Jenova? Is Chadley creating an artificial lifestream? Could Zack be destined to work with AVALANCHE & reunite with Aerith? Have Cloud and Zack been separated as legacy bros and did Sephiroth intentionally stagger the timeline to do so? How many holes do my socks have in them right now!? :D Needless to say this is a big spoiler theory for the story & ending of INTERmission / Final Fantasy 7 Remake. I’ll be looking to hop into Intergrade & kick some Weiss azz. I’m sure he is gonna garner some chaos pez reaction. Love to hear your thoughts my fellow Peasants 😉
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In Crisis Core, didn't Angeal use to call Zack a puppy? Or that he was similar to a puppy? Stamp symbolizing Zack in the Remake is no coincidence.
for sure and he did. So does everyone see stamp the same way or just cloud?
Ppl say in the end Zack and cloud will defeat sephiroth together
Is it a coincidence that Cloud has a headache exactly when Barret calls him Stamp that’s scared to bite the hand that feeds him?
Zack being alive at all pisses me off. Zacks death makes Cloud who he is for most of the story. Ff7 has gone full kingdom hearts. What if Zack is dead? This is just limbo
My theory would be great Zack and cloud finish sephiroth together
Something I noticed…when you start the game (remake) and you have your first run in with the “ hallucination” of Sephiroth, Cloud says “…you’re dead I killed you with my own hands” and Sephiroth responds “you need not remind me it was the crowning moment of our time together” at first I assumed he meant in Nibelheim but I’m starting to think he actually meant the final battle from OG FF 7. Why would Cloud throwing him into the mako reactor be “the crowning moment”…just a stream of consciousness on my part
That was the incident that lead to Cloud becoming a Sephiroth clone. The only reason Hojo experimented on Cloud is because he killed Sephiroth.
Also, don’t forget right after cloud says that he gasps in surprise, as he’s not even supposed to know the ending events of nibelheim. Cloud uttering that sentence is a surprise to him and to us players as at this point, clouds mind is still scrambled
My theory is a simple one. In the timeline that Zack is alive, Soldier Cloud would not have been there to save Aerith from the Shinra soldiers in the streets. She's now held captive, rather than at the church taking care of those in need.
I guess I just really hope what we were seeing isn't some kind of purgatory. Purgatory, in my opinion, is overdone, no longer interesting, and yields little to no payoff. No thanks.
purgatory is lame, a "what if" timeline is better
Zach being dead and we're just seeing his view point from within the lifestream makes a ton of sense.
Sense was kinda thrown out the window with all the whisper stuff, though. Basically anything can happen now :/
A small theory why the kids have buster swords, these are probably the kids that was influence by the other kid who was crying that her mom leave him to find Angeal and then Zack convince the mom to go back to his son and then the son told her mom that he will continue the club or help in a very small way. it was a small quest in chapter 8 or 6 in Crisis Core
Exactly. They're influenced by Zack, and the little side quests he did in his solo game. Zack also had a way with children, and spent a lot of his free time in the slums (to be with Aerith of course), so it makes sense that they have buster wood swords as mementos.
@@Cabolt44 btw I forgot, but did the zack fan club grew?
Zack cant be in the same timeline as Cloud, cause if so... then the Buster sword should not have been passed on to. But Cloud and Zack both have the same buster sword on their backs during those cut scenes...
Another possiblity is... there is no telling when Zack was put in by the time convergence.. it is possible that Zack was put a time when Clouds team has already left midgard. Its possible that he's in the same world as them but literally just arrived (in that world through the convergence) after Cloud has left.
Having watched and played these games a dozen times over, my theory is as follows:
- There are 3 timelines in Final Fantasy VII's universe, timeline A (Original FF7), timeline B post whisper defeat (FF7R) and timeline C (FF7R Zack).
- In timeline A we have the OG timeline with Dirge and advent children. The whispers were trying to keep cloud and gang on timeline A during 7's remake to keep the story progressing as it was meant to.
- Timeline B was created upon the defeat of the whispers. This was due to the Sephiroth from timeline A travelling back to change everything and his defeat and why the whispers had to be involved which led to their eventual defeat unlike in Timeline A. This is the timeline we are seeing going forward where anything can happen.
- Timeline C is Zacks timeline which was also created by the whispers defeat as he was destined to die but the whispers couldn't ensure that the same thing carried out. However, in this timeline I believe by the church scene that Aerith is dead and either Shinra or Sephiroth have a part to play.
Now FF7R-2 I believe will allow us to play as both Zack and Cloud. Zack and Cloud will both have their own parties in their own timelines and will be working towards a similar goal which could be sephiroth. I would say that towards the end of the remake games we will see these timelines converge, perhaps around the Aerith dying scene or before a Sephiroth fight. Either way, I strongly believe we will see aerith and Zack reunite as well as cloud and Zack in the remake and there will be a convergence. Nomura made KH for christ sakes, this will be a breeze.
Dude this is a really awesome thought process! I could really see potential after this comment and some others I saw, on the logic Aerith could be dead by that scene. So would timeline C essentially be a paradox timeline? Kinda 13-2 style I'm wondering if Zack would essentially be a deviant and his timeline is erratic. Basically how Zack goes from thinking he's just entered midgar, to suddenly walking in on Aeriths death mourners.
In that event would it suggest Aerith has died differently/sooner? I mean we can kinda see that the plate collapse hasn't happened when Zack's entering that church. But this is where I could really get on board is if the notion of these timelines connects to memory & the lifestream. Zack could be moving through a disarrayed timeline the same as he could be moving through a lifestream thats memory is being manipulated.
I feel Aeriths warning about Sephs disregard for memory. Also the mention from Seph that those who are bound to Gaia (Seph considers being a memory nurturing the planet like bound slavery), would be unmade by his actions.
The unmade could be everyones memory, or essentially their lives as they played out (those who live and died) are being undone. And I think that concept could show up in 2 forms. Lifestream whispers/memory/souls being reindividualised and essentially trapped in a unaware purgatory by Seph. That extra torment does fuel Sephs power. The bridge between memory and reality is broken.
But by timeline logic it could be rewritting the lives and events of things directly toward an end that gains seph victory. And yeah, maybe thats a pretty shocking timeline where Seph has already dispatched of Aerith before the threat of her summoning holy ever presents itself. So would that mean the VR sequence of meteor coming, tifa/barret dying, no lifestream or holy coming to save it. Was a glimpse at timeline C? Its the glimpsing of timeline C being shown through the same spell effect of lifestream/memory animation that makes me think time and stream are kinda the same thing in FF7 no?
@@FinalFantasyPeasant Perhaps, a deviant Zack timeline would be interesting. The way I look at Timeline C is that it's one that was created by mistake unlike Clouds destiny defying one in Timeline B. We know the whispers exist across all planes of timelines due to them being the planets will essentially, they keep things flowing perfectly. So timeline A, the original chain of events happens, and then timeline B is playing at the same time but lags behind timeline A (so say when Dirge is happening in A, timeline B is at start of Remake) allowing the whispers to keep easy control of events happening while timeline C lags behind at the part with Zack where he is about to die and we watch the whispers place the soldiers on the field as its meant to happen and then timeline D would lag behind that and so on so on.
The whispers coveted Midgar in zacks time basically showing in my view that nomatter what, Zack is gonna die and not enter. The whispers are defeated and can't kill Zack and that no-go zone into Midgar is now passable. So zack stores cloud then heads to Aerith, but comes across the church full of people. There's no reason for that, the S7 plate hasn't dropped so those residents wouldn't be there, the town loved aerith and they make a point to show the kids in particular. Something else to notice is if you pay very close attention to the shot of the flowers, you can see that they've actually started to die showing us she's passed on. But how she died? Sephiroth timeline jumping? Shinra capture upon learning Zack was alive? I'm not sure, but Zack on a similar mission to Cloud with his own crew and a timeline convergence leading to an epic final sephiroth vs cloud and Zack would definitely get fans hyped. Zack having to witness aerith die rather than cloud, or even cloud being the one to kill aerith infront of Zack under sephiroths influence would throw us all off. Or maybe Zack finds her dead and when the timelines converge he has to watch her die again, or maybe he dies so she lives. If cloud goes comatose again, Zack would fill the role cloud plays perfectly.
You are right in that the plate collapse hasn't happened so whatever has happened in this timeline to aerith would suggest that the normal flow of time which the whispers were meant to uphold where aerith dies later on no longer exists so she could die or be captured at any time with no issues. Lifestream and Memory theory is something I would definitely enjoy seeing you dive into with a video because it does pose some interesting questions.
Sephiroth having no regard for memories would play heavily into this being the Advent Children version (along with the triplets from the movie being whisper versions). He is bound to die 3 separate times, and remembers every defeat so to travel back through the lifestream and cause the whispers to take action, revealing them to Clouds gang so they die and set him free, the world and his fate are undone. I dunno how I'd approach a purgatory scenario but I'd be open to hearing more on that.
Maybe that's the case which is why he's re-written time with the whispers defeat. It makes me wonder if he knows Zack now lives and we still don't fully know what he's "7 seconds" line is about. It could definitely be showing the outcome of that because holy definitely did not show itself and it could very well be the same thing, I'd say it's a possibility.
I like the idea of having two parallel parties. It's like Squall/Laguna from FF8 and could be used to great effect to provide lots of context into what's going on since Zack has much more history in SOLDIER and knows much more of the behind-the-scenes goings on than Cloud and the gang.
This might lead into an open world metroidvania-style map exploration where you need main story progress in a parallel party to affect things between timelines to unlock portions of the map or exploration abilities, using the lifestream as a present-in-all-timelines common element.
@@xTGE the parallel parties both seeking sephiroth is brilliant and makes sense, especially since it seems as if swphiroth is trying to gain more co trol over destiny, and it's finding it harder to keep him at bay, showing his increased presence and knowledge in Remake.
I do think Timeline C would wind up following a similar path to timeline A & B, perhaps a little more streamlined since Zack has shown much more sistamce to S cells & wouldn't assist Sephiroth in the same way Cloud was able to be manipulated so wouldn't hand over the black materia for example, as even if Zack didn't find out that sephiroth caused the aerith in Timeline C's death to help himself, Zack still likely blames himself for failing to stop Sephiroth at Nibelheim and that his failure killed everyone & caused Cloud's trauma, and so would likely hunt after sephiroth with a similar passion--hell the fact he's still recovering from being shot 100s of times would help justify a level reset for him at the beginning of the game, game play-wise, like Cloud had, to keep the party dynamic more balanced
What if Aerith was telling Zack to follow the yellow flowers..? Zack and Aerith felt each other’s presence when they “passed by” each other so she might be able to speak to him, but to Zack, it’ll be in a “memory” type of thing..
We are HERE for your long form psychobabble, Pez. Never change.
Agreed !
Agreeeeeeee
Sorry gotta disagree on your Zack is dead theory. If SE really went that route, that is nothing but laziness. Why would they push his survival so hard, show multiple cutscenes only to late on just say in some cliffnotes, "PSYCH! Fooled ya, Zack's been dead the whole time! I know we showed you him surviving at the wastes, him carrying Cloud and visiting Aerith's church but nope! That was merely a lifestream vision!" To me that would be cheap and pointless if they really went that route.
Zack being stuck in purgatory doesn't make sense either. At the end of Crisis Core, Zack accepted his fate. He knew he was going to die and accepted it and passed his legacy onto Cloud and fell into the sky with a smile on his face. Zack didn't stick around like a ghost, not knowing he was dead, he accepted it and moved on. So for him to be stuck in a limbo really doesn't make sense imo.
As far as the story, I see him seeking out Aerith but perhaps he gets sidetracked, helps AVALANCHE or even finds Genesis or some side quest kinda thing and lets OG play out as it's supposed to. Him helping in the background would be refreshing and would keep the OG purists happy because he wouldn't interfere with what needs to happen. Just my two cents. Still love ya, Pez. Keep that tinfoil hat on!
TLDW: Wow this was a long vid lol and I just enjoyed talking lore too much. I think the hints that Zack is still in the lifestream are building up and if those church mourners are whispers. I could see it possible by the fact Seph absorbed the whispers and corrupted them with Jenova. Which basically means whispers merged with parasite capable of given form to memory = A corrupted lifestream that seems coporeal, indistinguishable from reality and the souls in it are re-individualised. Hence the crying out in pain.
Individualisation is a torment so its easy to see why it fits Sephiroths MO, its de dis-pears, Seph now growing groves of the buggers. Aerith told the whispers/souls to follow yellow flowers. Safe havens they can wade out Sephiroths plan & further corruption. Zack is going to be charged in a growing CC theme story (or surely his own DLC!?), with guarding the souls of the planet seeking refuge and it all starts with the first safe haven, Aerith's church. Big figures like Genesis or his ilk will be heavily motivated to keep the lifestream pure and could team with Zack & the LOVELESS final act is complete in thus discovering both salvation & the hero (hence the hero memetics evident in game, like buster sword orphans). Minerva gotta go. When Aerith dies she reunites in a final/secret ending scene with Zack and we continue with Cloud+gang fighting for the lives of people, while Zack+Aerith fight for their souls
My TLDW was still long :D thats my current head canon, I gotta hear yours! ;p
In this case I think you’re totally over thinking it. I think Zack has turned up after the party have left. All the people are crying because Aeris has left. I think it’s gonna be a case of Zack following the party a few steps behind (like the party did Sephiroth), as this is a way for the Devs to carry the story on as normal without Zack appearing.
@@otleyltd6544 why would those people be crying from Aerith leaving that weirdly? In a comatose like state staring straight face at the wall lol. I think thats the least likely way to interpret a scene shot with such deadpan music and zacks reaction. Just my opinion
Final Fantasy Peasant it’s not that weird. Everyone was all tears & mourning when Yuna left. And Aeris is held in that same kind of regard in her slums. (Plus it’s SE/Japanese and they’re hardly renowned for nuance). It could also be setting up Geostigma. I appreciate you make these big theory vids (I enjoy them), but SE lately has a habit of building up these huge ideas and taking the shortcut (you should have written FF15 based on your theories, they were better than the contrived Bs it ended up with)
@@otleyltd6544 yeah but the yuna scene wasnt framed at all the way the zack scene was. The ominous music, random girl literally swaying on the spot as they all moan oddly. I dunno I like the idea its more but I appreciate the words :D maybe an underwhelming result will be the end result from square
I know someone had a theory (in a chat in one of the playthrough's I watched of many streams play of this) that Zack Exist in a Timeline (I know it's a loaded term) where Aerith died and that's why Aerith had her stomach in knots when talking with Cloud suggesting maybe Sephiroth either was successful killing a version of her in that timeline or because the plot ghost weren't there to protect Aerith that she died in the plate collapse, also the flowers look kinda wilted (broken, stepped on) like Aerith isn't there to tend to them.
(Also the church doesn't just have a wooden cross that wasn't there, the church is in better condition, there are more pews there as well. No hole in the roof or rocket in the roof you notice when it pans in to the church before showing Zack. Maybe Neo-Midgar looking like a Garden from FF8 is a hint to Sephiroth doing some Ultimacia Time like fucker and Zack is now our Laguna of FF7R? XD)
Personally I don't know, I just want to see what the hell is going to happen going forward and where square is taking this over all. XD
(Also Zack could be in a Tidus situation with knowing FF10 connection being canonically tied to FF7 as well as a Dream of the Planet instead of a Dream of the Fayth? 🤔 All in all, what ever happens it's going to be a fun ride and I'm all down for it. XD)
I still think this scene with Zack was the same timeline, the same world as remake. The new reality of the remake. And this scene happened before the events of remake.
Think about the meaning of the Intergrade word. "pass into another form by a series of intervening forms." As always it could refer to multiple things. So it could show the series of events that lead to Cloud becoming who he is: the puppy becomes a new puppy, and Stamps is just a metaphor for it. It could also refer to how they are integrating the compilation to the world of remake in this DLC etc. (they were some easter eggs in remake, but now the compilation is really part of it all, so, think about the compilation as a whole)
My theory: the TURKs go in the interdimensional rift and kill Zirconiade in Before Criris. This creates a shockwave, and "snow-like particles" fall from the sky. This is EXACTLY what we see with Zack at the end of Remake. The whispers around Midgar in that scene were just surrounding the TURKs and Zirconiade. But you will tell me "we also see the same snow particles in the current-time, when Biggs wakes up". Which, to me, just means that the snow happens when you close an interdimensional rift, which is what happens when beating the whispers as well.
So basically, I just think this scene with Zack happened before remake. He walked back to the church, but Aerith was out rescuing the people from Sector 6 (which got severely damaged by Zirconiade), and told them to take shelter in the church.
Now imagine what could have happened after this: Zack would obviously suspects Tseng and go to Shinra HQ. But why does he give the sword to Cloud? Well maybe Cissnei told him to hide in Gongaga or something and let his Soldier's past behind.
I think we could find Zack in Gongaga. Or who knows....maybe Zack is in Deepground?
We know the sword is important, simply by the fact that it is being noticed by one of the soldiers in chapter 2. So, showing Zack still having the sword is definitely on purpose somehow.
literally every dude in FF7: MOM
Aerith: again? why does everyone calls me mom
Some women are just natural MILF's and tou Aerith are among them.
I E A R T H = mother nature
They meant MoM as in Master of Masters. Nomura's corruption is creeping up on them.
@@straypaper I see...
What I thought when I saw Zack made me think what sephiroth said to cloud at edge of creation. He got 7 seconds to change something, I immediately thought that cloud changed the 7 seconds of Zacks fight against the army which resulted in him surviving.
me too
I thought that Cloud didn't remember Zack in the Remake when Aerith talked about Zack in the Playground, Cloud had a headache because he subconsciously removed Zack from his memories because it was associated with extreme trauma.
@@hamizanyunos1502 true but throughout the game and especially during the fight against the harbinger cloud gets bombarded with memories he shouldn't have at the time. And there is also an argument to be made of cloud being subconsciously aware of one of the most pivotal moments in his life.
@@VdmRick But if Zack did survive in his fight against Shinra's grunts why didn't he arrive to visit Aerith sooner? Or was it possible that Cloud saved Zack from an alternate timeline without knowing.
@@hamizanyunos1502 Zack lived in an alternate timeline. Zack is still dead in the Remake timeline.
I could listen to you theorize for days man. I love how into it you are and where your mind is at.
It is possible that lucretia may also appear in the game probably in the end of the game or some mid chapter where she is trying to speak with sephiroth
I mean, duh? She appeared in the original FF7 so it's obvious that she will appear in Remake too
I think it's much more likely that we are just dealing with two distinctly different 'dimensions' (for want of a better word). I think I'm going along with the consensus that the 'plot ghosts' were busy with the FFVIIR events, and were not able to ensure Zack' death. - As much as Sephiroth is likely in total control of those events, he has not accounted for Zack' survival, and maybe something that Aerith has considered, and maybe calculated for...?
What if Sephiroth wanted Zack to live to keep the time line wrong to takes clouds body from Zack since cloud is the perfect vessel and if a full powered Cloud is to much for him why not get a weaken body. One who follows Zack who never got as strong, one who never meet up with Tifa, who feels weak and alone.
Don't think that is it because sephiroth told cloud to become stronger through hardships,I don't know what sephiroth is aiming for
I believe that Zack was brought forward through time to the point where The Harbinger Of Fate was killed. That's why the explosion caused by its death effected him and knocked him over. At that moment the Harbinger brought Zack forward in time but kept him in the same place geographically, same with the Cloud he carried. The scene where they all kinda walk by each other was Aerith sensing that Zack was there recently, maybe because Zack was thinking about her when he was there. Then by the time he gets to the church the Remame gang is out of Midgar. If your theory of the people is correct, and I like that part and believe its the case, then maybe Zack has been given the power/s of The Harbinger Of Fate making him the new Harbinger Of Fate but he's got a physical form thats why he can see these souls. Then maybe this 2nd Cloud could still have the memory loss but now everyone in Midgar knows him and everyone is helping nurse him back to health. Then 2nd Cloud and Zack have a Separate adventure that eventually joins with 1st Cloud and gangs adventure. Following the 2nd Cloud maybe of the two Clouds are possessed by Sephiroth, or the 2nd Cloud ends up becoming the Dirge of Cerberus online player character (him or Roche should become that character anyway), or unknowingly to Zack 2nd Cloud fades out of existence, due to not having two people of the same people existing at the same time, then Zack gets back from the church and can't find him do he goes around looking for 2nd Cloud and meets 1st Cloud and his friends in Cloud's home town of Nibelhiem, and joins them and due to this Aerith Doesn't die and Cloud has Zack around to help keep him from going crazy and bring him back when he's all mind controlled.
this would be stunning proof that they came from a different timeline I like it and also mystical FF style that the one that crossed over can't co-exist. However the strange thing is wouldn't more people in the world also crossover that's the only problem.
I would love it if we find a symbol on Zack. They found out the symbol means Harbinger of Faith and it took on Zack's form maybe even hallucinating him to believe he beat 50+ strong Shinra army but the Whispers bowed out in style helping him more than he realised before HoF took Zack as a passenger into a different dimension i.e. the main timeline.
So HoF = Zack and infusing his memories
There was a Reddit post that says the people in the church are Sector 8 survivors. The OP pointed out we saw the people in the church when walking through Sector 8, same clothes in each scene… but then so many NCPs look similar it could be a red herring. Tis a confusing time in the hinterland of waiting for Part 2.
Okay, I have a bunch of thoughts about Sephiroth and Aerith in particular that I'm going to try to organize as best I can. Apologies in advance for the ramble, and the length.
Let's start with Sephiroth. I think you nailed it with the idea that he's picking key moments in the original timeline--like the time discrepancy of 3w to a month--to undo. My theory is that he's responsible for every single difference we see from the original so far. Godo being imprisoned. Avalanche's more militant and organized structure. Cloud's arrival. New players like Leslie going after Corneo. There are probably so many more that we haven't seen yet or that have technically happened in the past (I expect the Nibelheim Incident during the Kalm flashback to be notably different when we get there), and I think that his goal was to sow as much chaos as possible by influencing crucial, wide-reaching events so that the Whispers would be forced to keep up. He's trying to wear them so thin that the party stands a better chance of beating them, since he can't do it himself, even with Jenova under his control. Even with them being described as Arbiters of Fate, it's clear that they can only directly affect so much, and in very specific ways at that. Make enough cracks in the ice, and the whole thing shatters.
I can't get the thought out of my head that in FF7R, we find President Shinra tossed out of a window instead of stabbed (he stabs him later, granted). It made sense to me that the Whispers were the one to do the tossing instead of Sephiroth, so what made him initially refuse to? If he was going to kill him anyway, why let that entire scene play out instead of stabbing him before they even get there like before? The only answer that I can think of is that he was testing the strength of their influence, in that exact moment. That's also why I suspect he stabs Barret, something he could have done to any of them at any point beforehand. He wanted to see how the Whispers would react. He needed data.
Also, I understood Sephiroth 'absorbing' the whispers in a completely different light, insofar that I wouldn't say that he absorbed them at all. I don't think that was Sephiroth. Up to that point, the Harbinger of Fate been pulling out all the stops to, well, stop the party, including summoning previous Sephiroth remnants through what I can only think to describe as echoes of them from the lifestream. I saw that swirling vortex of whispers manifesting into Sephiroth as their last-ditch effort to produce the strongest opponent that they could--but all they had were his echoes.
My supporting evidence of this comes from a few things. First, listen to what that version of Sephiroth says in the fight. Note that he only has lines for first phase. "Fate is not to be taken lightly." "The planet will claim you." There are a few more taunts thrown in there for good measure, but those two are a bit more significant, considering Sephiroth wants to destroy Fate (and presumably the planet, but who knows these days) at this point. Second, when cutscene-Cloud lands the final hit, Sephiroth pops like a Whisper piñata, and they all disperse. If he was containing them, why did they vanish? It makes more sense to me that they put everything they had into manifesting the one that you fight, and were destroyed upon their failure. Third, the cutscene Sephiroth that we see at the Edge of Creation is leagues above the one we fought not even minutes prior. Cloud can't touch him. It's either the magic of video games and gameplay, or a deliberate choice by the devs to make that instance of Sephiroth not only skilled, but so intimately familiar with Cloud's fighting style that he can block him without looking, and disarm him the second he feels like it. If Sephiroth has that knowledge already, the actual boss fight shouldn't have even been close.
All of that said, let's dip into Aerith. Here, I only really have questions. Namely, is Aerith's death still necessary in FF7R? Never mind the meta-reasoning of preserving the original for a moment. Let's consider it in terms of where the characters have gone and/or appear to be going. To Sephiroth, Aerith originally needed to die because she was the only one that could stop him. Now, the Whispers would need her to die for the same reason--but they're gone now. Sephiroth knows what happens if she end up back in the lifestream with the white materia. It'd make sense for him to keep her alive more than it does for him to kill her at this point. Hell, all of this assumes that his goal is still using the black materia in the first place. "Should this world be unmade, so too shall her children." Aerith says that he'd claim to want to protect and preserve the planet, but he's its greatest danger--but what exactly does that mean? This feels pointedly different than his plan in the original, so what exactly does his idea of protecting and preserving look like? Does it still involve Meteor? We have no idea what his current plan is, or how he plans to achieve it, only that it begins with dismantling Destiny.
that whisper sephiroth theory is a good one, man. good points to think about.
Hopefully Zack will catch up to the team when Cloud is about to give Aeris the Axe
Just watch her kill him with that chair this time around
I think they're going to subvert that this time around. See, we know for sure that Seph is trying to do a do over right? And Seph knows for sure that he'll fail if he kills Aerith after she casted Holy. So I think this time around, one of two things will happen:
1. Seph will doggedly try to kill Aerith before they reach the City of the Ancient, and the party may, or may not try to speedrun there too. This might mean that the Temple of Ancient (Black Materia) sequence and the City of Ancient sequence will be reversed. In the original the party tried to get the Black Materia before Seph, and when that failed, they launched Holy in response. In this timeline the party might opt to launch Holy preemptively, or at least Seph will prioritise killing Aerith before getting the Black Materia and before reaching the City of Ancient.
2. If Seph failed to kill Aerith before she launches Holy, he'd try his damndest to keep Aerith alive. On the contrary, Aerith will most likely try to kill herself after casting Holy. Fun, right? Aerith knows for sure that just Holy will not be enough to stop the Meteor, and when speed is concerned Meteor is faster and there's no stopping Meteor if Seph already got the materia. This would make a fun twist for the "you are a puppet" scene where instead of being a puppet because he allowed Seph to kill Aerith, this time *Cloud is a puppet because he tried to prevent Aerith from dying, because that's what Seph wants this time around.*
@@straypaper You kinda have to realise that Aerith and by extension Zack, are also countering whatever plans Sephiroth has. You can see that in certain sequences where it seems like she's summoning memories from her future (or channeling future versions of herself). This makes it pretty clear that Aerith is also manipulating events to he favour, out of view from Sephiroth's manipulations. Will be interesting how this 5-D chess game will go between Aerith and Sephiroth.
I think I might have it figured out. This is a theory I'm working on. What if Zack did in fact die outside of Midgar. Upon death he went to the Lifestream. At this point you have to think of being in the Lifestream as an afterlife. And in this afterlife, Zack's experience is that he won the battle, and he gets to live happily ever after in the Lifestream. Only he goes to the church to see his girl, but Aerith isn't there. What he finds is a people in pain, and sorrow instead. Why? Because Shinra is draining the Lifestream, and what should be paradise, or the "Promised Land" has parts missing. Shinra is destroying the, "Promised Land." Perhaps this explains the screams, and the howling in Chapter 18 of Remake.
Also Aerith. The guardian of the Lifestream is gone. Because of Sepiroth/Shinra draining the life, and happiness out of the Lifestream, and ultimately the planet, she had to leave, and join our heroes. By the ultimate end of the series, the Lifestream will be healed, and Aerith will return to the "Promised Land." Which restoring balance to the Lifestream was Aerith's goal all along.
In fact, maybe Aerith tending to the church/flowers is actually Aerith tending to the Lifestream, and its happiness. Hence she talks to flowers, and why different flowers have different meanings. But now Aerith had to leave the tending of the Lifestream to combat Sepiroth. So there's pain in the stead of her absence.
Think in similar terms of how the time-line becomes jacked up in the movie Bill and Ted Face the music. Or like the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror short entitled Time and Punishment (Which is probably some sort of parody of something else).
I think an interesting way to do it would be, yes, Zack is still inside of the Lifestream, however... because of Sephiroth's corruption if it, both in the future and during the course of the remake, Zack will find himself with more and more agency within to combat it. He also be able to eventually communicate and coordinate with the alive members of FFVII Remake, and that's how they could finally destroy Sephiroth by destroying his avatar (FFVII Remake Sephiroth) but also his life force (the corrupted lifestream).
Two theories about Zak. 1. He'll catch up during the City of the Ancients and stop Cloud from killing Aerith. 2. Cloud will enter this time line when he enters the lifestream and have to fix his current reality.
My two big theories are that 1. yes Zack is still dead and a ghost and those are ghosts he will have to help as well as looking after Cloud until he reintegrate himself. 2. Nope Zack is alive and the one from this timeline. The person who isn't from this timeline is Cloud. There is some of evidence in part 1 that Cloud for all his messed up memories is actually post-AC Cloud and his arrival in the events pushed things forward a couple of weeks since he wasn't mako poisoned and so didn't have to recover before avalanche bombed reactor 1. So Zack's last battle took place at the same time as the battle on the highway and due to the reactor bombings and plate fall etc the makeup of the army sent after Zack was slightly inferior.
I enjoy hearing the theorycrafting about this game and I have since it came out last year, I've watched quite a few videos on it... but ultimately I don't think SE is going to be able to pull off anything so complex as multiple realities/timelines. After all of the speculation over the years for how the Kingdom Hearts saga would wrap up, and then we got... whatever that disappointment of an ending to the story that KHIII was... I don't have a lot of faith in them pulling off anything so complex as that. If Yoshi-P's team were in charge of it, maybe. A Nomura project though... I don't trust.
I'll keep watching the videos and hoping for the best though, but the realist (pessimist?) in me is bracing for the worst. I don't know what the explanation for all of this could be OTHER than alternate realities or parallel timelines, but I'm expecting something disappointing and stupid, in the end ;-p
Reading back through all of this, also I realize this is coming off very "anti-SE," which is not exactly what I meant. I love the company and their products and will continue to buy them, they've just made some really baffling narrative decisions with their stories in the last 2 decades or so that have led me to be wary with my expectations, FFXIV notwithstanding.
If your theory turns out to be the path Square has chosen Pez that’d be pretty cool. If we did get the FF8 treatment with the switch between Zack and cloud timelines remake about to be an even longer game and I’m all for it! Just thinking about it and how they could have different outcomes in both timelines and/or routes they could take, something similar to FF13-2. If so FFR ain’t gonna finish until like FFR9 or something 🤣
In the Main game the church is completely destroyed inside but in the DLC it’s almost perfectly intact
48:06 - 48:18 Pez... I love your videos but I also feel this part here is a little silly. While its true characters like Aerith, Zack, and Sephiroth live on through Cloud's conciousness in ways, those voices in Cloud's head there when he falls into Aerith's church in the OG is literally just his inner true self talking to him. Not Zack nor Seph, It wasnt till Remake that Sephiroth actually had an influence on him in this part. Remake also shows that those voices have always been Cloud.
One of my theories is that Zack being the chad he is. Is gonna pick up that he's suppose to be dead and that his death makes important changes for the future. He goes along by setting things right again by giving the still remaining comatose Cloud the Buster Sword because he then realizes Cloud is the key for the future and without letting Aerith see Zack, he is able to bid his farewell and see her one more time before the "big battle" to his death or maybe he makes a big sacrifice to keep the timeline at the very least close to how it's suppose to be. He goes out with no regrets and a smile. The chad that made the big play with not a single soul knowing that he did it. It's something that i can just see Zack doing. He's not gonna let Sephiroth win. *queue The Price of Freedom*
I think Zack is on a different timeline from the main cast. My guess is that something happens to Cloud and he will jump timelines towards the end of the games and Zack’s party will be playable further down the line. It’s also a way to get the remaining members in a party without having to rely on the excess members standing around while the others fight. My guess is Zack’s party will be gunner Cloud, Vincent, Cait Sith and Cid.
I actually feel like it may be that these aren’t dead souls, but souls who have died and been ripped out of the livestream. We see how when the speckle of light touches Biggs cheek that that is the moment he finally wakes up. What if all the other speckles are also souls being forced out of the life stream? Or even the whispers being given life again? Zack’s survival happened through his Victory, not the gold specks, however. I don’t see Zack as being dead but this theory really made my brain think.
the simulation did exist before the time of ff7 in crisis core and they can just control it with a motorola phone
Oh Chadley you stupid A.I.
One thing I don't understand during the ending of yuffie dlc Zack goes to church but no sign of cloud where I's.he.
There is only one buster sword. Just don't make no sense. At this point I'm just along for the ride. Toot* toot* gold saucer bound.
I really want there to be three time lines slash parallel universe. The og ff7, the ff7r Cloud timeline where Sephiroth managed to go back and alter stuff, and Zack's new timeline.
Posting before I've watched the whole vid: maybe we are getting the unison of FFX and FF7.
Zack and those crying possibly are unsent. He's not present in the
'real world' and unable to interact with the living. So basically we're following the story of Zack coming to terms with his death.
The end of remake may have just been cloud imaging Zack walking with him or it was before his final battle.
I haven’t finished the video yet but the idea that the people in the church are dead is really Interesting. My gut reaction was that the people in the church were in mourning (probably Aerith). I’d be interested in seeing if you played through ff7r again if you could see these npcs and if they are from the same sector.
Aerith is just straight up dead in Zach's timeline, this will lead Zach on the path of probably crossing over to remake's main timeline. How he'll do so is the real question
Wouldn't this make it 3 timelines? Aerith and Zach die in OG timelines. Him being alive and her being dead in one is already a new event, unless he crossed over to OG's. But just makes no sense regardless
@@servancastillo986 My assumption was the only major thing that changed in Zach's timeline that we know of is Zach lives, going on that information and what he sees in the church when he returns somehow Aerith died in that timeline, so we're still dealing with two timelines only.(and please god let it be just two.) Now idk if it's Sephiroth being an ass and messing with things or something else entirely, being an ass is Sephiroth's favorite thing to be fair
@@canadianbacon3846 I get what you mean, but it'd still nake 3 because it's like in Zelda: OG one Zach dies, Aerith dies. 2nd would be this one in Remake, Zach lives, Aerith Lives. 3rd, Zach lives, Aerith dies. It just becomes 3 things no matter what if you add Zach into this equation. Unless the Life Stream inserted Zach into this timeline of Remake, then it keeps it as 2, yet, that cutscene of Cloud And Zach passing by the group, parallel, unseen, then what is that even haha, its all crazy!
@@canadianbacon3846 Why do you think that Aerith is already dead when he arrives at the church?
@@Coldsilfur4 They look like they are gathered in mourning, and the location of the mourning is important here. The theme is a bleaker version of aeriths theme, Zach is asking her name as if he expects her to be there but she isn't. And I don't think we are dealing with Zach being in the same timeline and he just missed her leaving with Cloud and company no way. Both for the reasons that the timing doesn't work he would have arrived with Cloud ages before that and would have gone straight to Aerith long before cloud dropped in and met her. The other reason being he has the buster sword, I doubt he made cloud a replica while they were chilling in Midgar
My theory zack is alive those people are traumatized after ther sector 7 plate collapse and sephiroth is rewriting history to his because aerith and Nanaki already how it the o.g time line plays out and this is a post a.c sephiroth trying to change everything
When you mentioned that Cloud had only arrived a day before Remake started I was like "wtf, I beat the game 13 times and that's never been mentioned."
After I googled Remake's timeline I learned of the other localizations. I'm not sure we should take that as certainty that Cloud *only* arrived on that day. It could of been the day Tifa told Marle about him after he recovered from being bugged out. Like she kept him hidden as not to draw suspicion...since no one ever mentions his condition despite everyone knowing how Mako effects people.
The World Preview Book doesn't tell us when Tifa meets Cloud, Zack dies in Sep no date mentioned though so I don't no where they get the dates from tbf. Unless stated in the Ultimania.
There's gotta be enough time to where he recovers, and Tifa tells Avalanche gang he can help them out. Which goes to Jessie asking about Cloud if he's one of them now etc. Like they all met before going on the mission we get into to start the game. I read or thought it was only a week or a couple weeks passed between CC and FF7
Kweh
When Cloud meets Aerith in Remake she says “I used to date a Soldier”. It was Zack. I think Zack is in fact dead, and that the scenes where he’s showcased are simply flashbacks.
Aerith is a Cetra and Shinra knew that since she was a child. I would venture to guess that the scene of Zack at the end in the church is simply him in a flashback when he’s just met Aerith.
And she’s not there because she’s been abducted by Shinra, again… Based on the Aerith/Marlene scene where she bravely made a deal with Tseng to get Marlene to safety in exchange for her capture - may imply that possibly the scene with Zack is him walking into a distraught community who loved her, but she’s been abducted.
i would agree, but if you look closely one or two of the NPCs are walking through her flowers and some have quite clearly been trampled/walked on, i dont think ppl who loved Aerith would walk all over her flowers she loved.
No
tbh i prefer your longer content, it works better for theory vids
So if zack is alive, then where is cloud? I mean the cloud that zack was trying to save when fighting shinra. and where did cloud in remake get a buster sword? Zack passed it down to cloud in the O.G. story when zack is dying. But where did cloud from remake get his if zack is alive? If destiny has been changed, then cloud would not have zacks buster sword. Because only one exists.
Only an parallel universe makes sense, and it seems they are trying to convey that is what it is with the stamp packet.
well, one thing's for sure... I want to be surprised ^^
Omg, I finally understand it. Zack is hearing the cries of the planet. Those people in the church are dead and so is Zack. Also some of those people were seen above plate and they may have died when Shinra dropped the plate, resulting in their deaths.
Absolutely agree!
No zacks alive why did he feel the blast then
So Zach is like in a Zanarkand version of Midgar :)
Ok so how do you explain the zack carrying cloud scene that would mean cloud dead too
@@FinalFantasyPeasant I think the big reveal is that Zack himself is not aware that he is in the Life-stream hence why he saw the Church and though he might visit Aerith but was surprised to see it was not the case.
This reddit post explains why Zack is in the Life-stream which argues similar points that you pointed out:
www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/o0tnfm/theory_on_zack_new_ending/
The scene with Zack going to the church to see Aerith came across much different to me. For one we don't know what time Zack is going to the church. Zack just survived so this should be before the start of FF7 beginning. Also I felt it was heavily implied that Aerith is dead in Zack's time line. And that's why there is crying and people in emotional pain in the church. Also it doesn't look like the people in the church have any belongings if they were refugees though it would make sense if they were dead instead. And one more point, the flowers are messed up or withered in the front which might further implies Aerith being dead. Plus someone from a final fantasy interview did point out the different stamp dog in remakes ending when asked about Zack living. That seemed to imply Zack wasn't in the same timeline as Cloud and the gang.
Also the concerning way Zack says, Aerith's name. Aerith isn't in the church 24 hours a day. She has a home too, so if you don't find her in the church he should check her house but the way his face drops like what in the world happened. Also if they were refugees you would think Aerith would be there trying to help them out. Maybe it's just the feeling I'm getting from it. But just wanted to put the possibility out there.
Did he not realise the guy who drives you to calm town is the man that runs the chocobo ranch you use to get passed the midgar zolom
yeah I recognised him lol. Why wouldn't he be there?
What do you think the game is trying 2 say if Aerith's flower gaurden is a "gate" 2 the life stream when both Cloud and Zack nearly die and wake up on it??
Maybe the reason Zack said a confused "Aerith?" It's because they are in the lifestream, they know it.
But Aerith left the lifestream to try to stop sephiroth from rewriting history, like some have theorized before.
Yes finally someone agrees with me, Lifestream White Act III is what she is recreating in remake, here's a medal 🎉🎊🏅
so how do you explain Zack carrying a second Cloud? Cloud isn't dead, so he wouldn't be in the lifestream. Unless Zack is just imagining it.
@@geminuri What does Aerith give Cloud in chapter 2 which is a symbol of Reunion.
So what do you think happened to Cloud?
@@KJames2345 she sells those flowers to everyone though. only difference is she gave it to him as a gift. might have to explain it to me like i'm 5 because i'm not getting the connection between zack's cloud and cloud cloud and death/lifestream.
Zack is in the afterlife. When Aerith dies she will meet Zack here.
Personally, I'm still leaning towards a single timeline being altered/updated with the destruction of the whispers, however I still enjoyed your take and different way of looking at the details and lore, rather than just regurgitating the same (sometimes flawed) points others have repeated ad nauseam lol. Good video, thanks!
LOVE the length of the vid btw Pez!
I'm with you, Zack should stay as a "What if" mechanic. If he is in the same universe as our party then it doesn't make any sense.
I hope we get to see what happens to him in each game, a cheeky cutscene here and there. I don't want his reality to converge with the remake one unless it is momentarily to mindbreak cloud.
What the name of the track playing on 43:04
“The Cloud Head Hotel” 😂; but it does make sense if they walked off when Zack died, then by the time they get to Kalm he could have made it to the church. I’m just still confused cause I think it makes sense that he’d take more than a day to go meet Aerith to leave Cloud somewhere safe but also to recover, cause he was barely able to walk himself, he was badly hurt
I cant see why the aerith is dead theory works in zack's "timeline" because the turks were watching over her. Wouldnt it be better to say that the turks have aerith and she wasnt there for a long time and thats why the flowers were wilted?
The Turks turn her over to Hojo and Hojo kills her. One possibility anyway. Personally, I don’t think we have enough information to know where they are going with any of this.
Love the long video format, Pez!
As long as he doesn't have his journey just to do a Tidus fade-out, I'm alright with pretty much whatever. FF7 isn't my story to tell.
The thing that I'm head canoning about is the conversation that seph had with cloud at the end of time. He's talking about having cloud join him. What if Sephiroth corrupts Cloud completely and Zack will have to take Clouds place because Cloud becomes the new end boss integrated with Sephiroth.
That would be truly tragic. Square would pretty much be like "well fans seem to like Zack more, so let's just make him the main guy of ff7!" That would be such a waste of Cloud's character..
Daaaaaamn . Dont say Things like that .....😕
Love it
Intergrade got me thinking that the game is just a retelling of events within the life stream and everyone is reliving their old lifes just to purge Sephorth out of the Life Stream. Zack is still alive, Biggs and wegde, maybe Jessie.
But how are they reliving their old lives if they actively try to change it? If they wanted to purge Seph they'd stick close to the original route where Seph loses, not venture out to new memories where Seph could win.
Thing is sephiroth can't be purged out of the life stream because he belongs to it he needs to be purified,jenova is the one that doesn't belong to that planets life stream.
What? No.
I disagree with the notion that it's weird for Zack to stand on the sideline when everything happens in Midgar. It's not weird at all tp cpnsider that if Zack is alive by the time of FFVII, he would be a highly wanted man. Not to mention, he's a really famous one within Shinra...hell, even Cloud who was a mere Shinra trooper got recognized by his other trooper comrades. So, it is within reason that Zack out of all people, can't really go back and stay on Midgar.
My theory of it is that Zack does survive, and there is no more than one world, no alternate timeline. It's just one world history forever changed, due to Cloud & co beating the mother of all whisperer, and Sephiroth finding a way to manipulate lifestream power over reality in gaia (lifestream is the mother crystal of VII world, and all mother crystals in Final Fantasy worlds have power to store memories and changed realities based on those stored memories).
Also remember that everyone who are known supposed to die from whisperer intervention, such as Biggs and Wedge, survived in the Remake...i mean, Wedge literally got blown off middle high floor Shinra building by Whisperer. There is also a hint of Jessie survival on VIIR ending. Zack is now canonically known to be one of those people who dies due to whisperer intervention (they are healing Shinra troopers and Soldiers Zack already beaten like they heal Barret...practically making Zack face an unending battle until he's exhausted).
My guess is that Zack, after surviving the whole ordeal of CC ending due to no more whisperer intervention, dropped the still relatively weak Cloud somewhere save, and then go to the Church to meet Aerith again. Whatever happens between that ending scene and the start of VII original/remake timeline, made him realized the fact that he can no longer stay in Midgar. So, he stayed hidden somewhere, while leaving Aerith safety to his Turk friends, and then he give Cloud his Buster Sword and send him away to Midgar to find and protect Aerith and the people there. It's not even impossible for Zack to stay with Avalanche HQ or Wutai.
Now i know then you might ask "then why is there no mention of Zack at all during VIIR?"...well, i'll say that everything before the ending of VIIR are all still according to Zack is dead scenario, because they haven't beaten the whisperer yet, just like Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie are all still dead until Cloud & co beat whisperer. Think of the ending after the defeat of the whisperer as a sudden changing pf the reality, memories of Zack survival came into both Cloud and Aerith during the shown ending when they seemingly walk passed surviving Zack shadow...that's the changing memory to adapt with the changing reality, visualized for us to see.
So, again, my bet is on that Zack is alive and well hiding somewhere in Gaia, and we will see him again on one of the next chapters. Hopefully, VIIR then becomes a multiple ending kind of game, where our decisions during gameplay decides the ending we get. I also hope that we can have the option of recruiting Zack into the team 👍👍👍
Dude,.... I cannot express enough how much I Love this theory! No joke, I think this is your best video to date man. Zack being this important TRULY makes sense now as the true thorn to Sephiroth. I love this idea and it even lines up and compliments with a lot of Maximilian Dood's thoughts on how Square are going to go about our expectations with Aerith and Zack. Love this man and currently my new head cannon for Zack now lol.
I think Zack is behind the scenes because he was in the life stream and knows what is going to happen. Including the death of Aerith. What if Zack was brought back to save Aerith from being killed by Sephiroth because only Aerith can save the planet from Meteor.
Holy shyte, during that Zach church scene I just saw Noctis wearing the ring 💍. Anyone else see that?
Zack is turning to laguna
Your theory made me more confident in the futur of the remake. Hope something similar actually happens. Cause yeah having Zack alive in the same timeline as the main characters would be... really weird. And it could totally mess up Cloud's story. But it seems some people want him to be alive no matter what and that's sad.
How is it? It's more impactful for clouds character that Zack and him have a reunion? It's all about how its handled. I think you're looking at clouds character from the original timeline with advent children rather than seeing the new version of the character.
@@xTGE even with the new version of the character the most important thing for his growth is to overcome his fears and struggles by himself imo.
My whole reason for it being different timelines is that Zach and Cloud couldn't have the buster sword at the same time, I don't think you can argue Zach is in the main FF7R timeline.
In OG, Aerith date, she wanted Cloud to be himself, in other words, not be Zack. If Cloud doesn't have Zack as that moral compass, he may actually grow because of it. Sephiroth 's plan may backfire on multiple levels.
I WANT ZACK TO HAVE A HAPPY ENDING! Lets say there are 3 timelines and he is in one all on his own. Hopefully he has a whispers moment where he finds his way back to Aerith and joining new remake timeline
The last thing the timeline needs is for Zack to enter into the existing time line
I keep saying this thewwout the while game, he's everywhere and places he's in seems very out of place for a child of his age omg, I CALLED IT \°^°/
I'm thinking zacks journey in remake is what a crisis core 2 would look like. He's dead and doesn't know it yet, but he's gonna break down some barriers in the lifestream (Minerva) that pave the way for Aerith to eventually rally it against meteor. Could be cool. I did not think he was dead at all before either. That new scene with the white light in the church door and the NPCs not reacting to him really put me on the Zack is dead train.
If you look back, with the scene with Aerith and Cloud where they first meet, it's probably Aerith saying that they're reunited in a sense that, maybe Aerith was the one who nursed him back to health with w/c cloud does not remember. Or maybe, she was just involved for a bit that's why the spectre's are after them all this time. It's just a theory, a game theory.
not sure what to think. This is a headcanon that hurts my brain. I would have prefered that it is a seperate timeline
and the end of this remake
will merge them back into teh original, by removing or in this case
heroic sacrificing somethings in order ot fully make sure that Sepirpth do nto come back
that may be Zack and Aeiris and teh Avanalce Trio new goal. Jessie studdied Planetory. so things can change. This being the lifestream? not a fan of that idea jsut as much as I am not a fan of all this guessing game and more questions we get. I hope something or someone will specificy, what is truth.
Perhaps at the edge of creation when Sephiroth said you have '7 seconds till the end, time enough for you. Perhaps. But what will you do with it? Let's see' he meant those 7 seconds before Aerith's death in the original?
Pretty sure it's mentioned in the text at chapter selection that it's 7 seconds before the end of the world.
@@Quentilly Ahhh I see! Thanks!
Man, if you're correct. Everything is going to be bittersweet. We get more of our favourite characters, but they'll still be dead :(
Can I just say after watching this and my mind racing with what if's I have come to notice alot of what genesis said about zack towards the end of crisis core is now making sense. I may be wrong but genesis said zack had received the gift of the godess is this what he meant? He's been selected as a champion given a second chance. This is all theory of course but I feel it has weight.
Zack is NOT trailing behind them, he and Cloud are both carrying the same sword… what, did a ditto appear and turn into a second sword that Cloud is carrying? Lol
Bruh... the whispers were there to keep Zack alive. Now he's dead because the team destroy the Harbinger. The funky Kingdom Hearts universe is actually the dark lifestream and Zack's "story" will travel through the light lifestream. Bet he teams up with Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie. I've said since FF7R's original ending that the Zack shit is a red herring or the concept of the "unreliable narrator" like we experienced in the original. FF7 WILL CONTINUE AS IT ALWAYS HAS.
My theory :
-whispers live outside of time, space and dimentions. Their "main base" is the singularity.
-In the Future, Earth faces a great danger. Sephiroth's spirit still floats in the lifestream without being completely part of it, like a parasite. Eventually he gets some of the powers of the whispers.
-He doesn't want to die, and somehow he figures if Zack had lived, the future would change and Earth would be saved.
-He goes to the past to change it, but fillers won't let him, and he can not interact with them, so he needs Cloud&co to kill them. That's why fillers appear when he does in chapter 2. Only people that need to be interacted with see the whispers.
-In another timeline, fillers are also watching Zack's last fight to make sure he dies, but because they die, he lives. In the end he's not in the same timeline as the Remake team, he is in a timeline really close to the OG timeline but where he lives.
-He lives, so he takes care of Cloud until they both get better, maybe he entrusts him to Kunsel or another close friend, then he goes to Aerith.
-In this timeline, Cloud is not in Avalanche, so their bombing missions go differently, probably wrong, some shit happens in the sector six and there are lots of refugees, they all use the church as a shelter. Aerith is not here, maybe just in her house or at the Shinra Building.
------------------
-In the next games :
Their name will be :
Final Fantasy VII Rebirth
Final Fantasy VII Reunion
-We follow both the Remake team and the Zack team, like in FF8 where we follow both Squall team and Laguna team (but this time it will be 50/50, not 90/10).
-The Remake team follows the original story, the Zack team follow a completely new story.
-Zack tells Tseng about Hojo's horrible deeds, Tseng talks to Hojo, Hojo gets angry, Turks are now ennemies of Shinra.
-Every character has an equivalent in the other dimention who shares almost the same gameplay.
-Cloud 1 = Zack
-Barret = Cloud 2 (his weapon had always been a gun at this moment, but he now has the physiology of a SOLDIER)
-Tifa = Rude
-Yuffie = Cissnei, or maybe Kyrié
-Vincent = Tseng
-Aerith 1 = Aerith 2
Aerith makes the link between the two timelines. Eventually they reunite, Cloud dies instead of Aerith (one of them must die because they are both the opposite of Sephiroth), she becomes the main character, Zack replaces him.
------------
Thank you for reading this far. My theory has holes, but I've spent a lot of time thinking about it.
If you think that's crazy, I understand, but DC comics make crazier stories about time travel every other week.
My mind is still blown from FFVII Remake, & my gosh I’m calling it now! FFVII Crisis Core Reunion will tie in with Remake/Rebirth & explain/expand on Zack being alive.
I’m so excited..
I mean I wouldn’t call it a coincidence that they remodeled Zack’s Buster sword to fit the one Cloud has in Remake. It’s gotta be for a reason
I am intrigued and very wary/hopeful that SE does this nee story right. Would probably destroy SE if they build this story up and have a GoT style ending and not paying off any of the built up storylines.
My mind jumped to the same place. This has to be the future of remake. Multiple timelines and Zack being alive would be so convoluted and messy. I hope to God your right about him being in the lifestream.
So I'm like 6 months too late to the video but given how strong the norse influences in FF7 are I can't resist sharing something you bought up around 40:00; Fólkvangr
It's not a super well documented area of the mythology, it definitely gets overshadowed by the more well known afterlives but the description generally goes like this; after a battle Odin welcomes the noble dead to Valhalla... after Freja, goddess of love/beauty/war/death/fertility/gold/seiðr (feminine-coded magic), has already taken half of her choosing to her hall of Sessrúmnir. Some interpret it as an army like Odins, I've seen some view it as a sort of ark for souls to begin the cycle anew after ragnarok. It's worth noting that there are mentions of it that take out the 'noble weapon death' portion entirely and make it a much more inclusive thing so all bets are off, the entry ticket could easily be something as arbitrary as a yellow (perhaps even golden) flower
So basically "Magical badass goddess-type lady flies under the radar with sneaky soul army to face/survive the end of the world" is a) not an insane theory, and b) based in a piece of mythology just obscure enough to make a super cool (yet thematically consistent) twist for Remake
Edit: Now that I think about Odin was one sneaky motherfucker who exchanged a part of himself (an eye) for greater knowledge of the realms, known for travelling the worlds in a great many forms testing potential heroes, he occasionally communed with the dead and even had some low-key mind control shit going on. So if Sephiroth's going after all souls it'd frankly be weirder if someone weren't picking his pockets. Also, Fenrir (completely unrelated to the Fenrir in Advent Children and what it symbolizes, I'm sure) eats him in the end. He's a Very Good Doggo our boy Fenrir is.
will there be 2 Buster Swords if the present Cloud and Zack being alive met?
*... i honestly believe it's as simple as Sector 5 people mourning the death of Aerith in Zack Lives™ timeline. She is very beloved and helped them so much, so her death is a huge blow to a lot of people. The point is probably there is no "happy" timeline where everyone's alive and reunited. Also, ending of main playthrough literally has Zack & Mako-poisoned Cloud pass our cast to confirm the two timeline plot point. Not everything has to be needlessly overly complicated beyond that fact.*
*Also, even in OG, Tifa didn't need to nurse Cloud at all. He got up on his feet immediately after she asked him few questions, taking on Zack's persona right then and there. She said she didn't know what to do or make of this, so she gave him a job (and now, a place too) with Avalanche right away. Funny enough, this is also major point of criticism on Tifa for putting him right back to action when she could just... tell him the truth. But that's a discussion for another time.*
*Point is, Zack's timeline is only behind by a few days. Which honestly I hope is not a major oversight on the devs' part. Since it makes more since for timelines to at least lineup...*
I see the "Zack return" as perhaps an experiment from Sephiroth. Maybe he realized that Zack dying was the main catalyst to his failure. If Aerith fights to live instead of just dying, if cloud doesn't have him rooting for him in his head in AC, then... Well... Perhaps the outcome is different.
I think the pount of Zack is he'll appear after they arrive in Kalm, the nibelheim flashback working as the tutorial for p2.
When he arrives, they introduce coop where Zack joins Clouds party and works as basically a 2nd cloud for your player 2 to play.
Lore wise, i think the whispers themselves changed his death and brought him back in hopes he could help Cloud stop Sephiroth now that destiny/fate/the timeline has broken.
The greatest thing pez. Is that when sephiroth says to cloud in the remake after the first reactor bombing- ‘You have to live’ .... now why oh WHY- would Sephiroth ever say that to cloud?? That is exactly one of the last lines Zack ever said to Cloud. What you explained how Sephiroth wants to replace almost Zacks heroism and legacy within cloud is teased at constantly within the remake. So Zack is now alive.. and Stamp is the hero of the people and Zacks entrance to the church is not the livestream,, it’s Zack finally realizing that he must be a morale leader to the people and lead them- not as the heretic Shinra crowned him, but as Stamp!! The hero for all dear hearted people of midgar Gaia and the life stream.
Sephiroth could not anticipate what allowing Zack to live could result to ... or how it can change cloud but perhaps Sephiroth believes cloud needs- this legacy and perhaps after all Cloud is able to sort himself out and be himself with or without Zack or Sephiroth’s help. Sephiroth is putting pressure on Clouds conscious with all of their ominous interactions and jenova’s power, referring to their cutscenes in the remake:
the real question is: how will Zack’s coalition, Deepground , cloud and the party, sephiroth, Shinra and Hojo all turn out??? There is many things afoot here and obviously it makes it all the more juicy. But to really understand what Zack is doing, it’s clear- he wanted to see Aerith and she was already gone. Instead he was faced with the distraught reality of the people needed something to look up to , a goodness to cling on, an arm to hold ; the Shoulders of Stamp to stand on!
He’s the good boy who never stops!
Edit: Shinra seems to be much more intel-orientated this time around. Given Shinra stood for trying to replicate a Godhead all consuming presence in the world previously. What has changed now in Shinra’s complex ambitions?
The "Zack is in our timeline now" thing also doesn't account for a couple small things that cause problems. 1: What happened to the second Cloud that Zack was carrying with him. We could say this Cloud is our Cloud, but then why does Zack still have the Buster Sword when he reaches the church? There are items/people out of place that don't make sense for Zack to be alive in our timeline.
My problem with speaking of two timelines is that if they are separate, theres no impact and would only be a diversion. My proposition is that part1 was following destiny and the characters from there that entered the singularity have stepped out into the other timeline. Sephiroth AND Cloud had short control of the power of FATE and changed things. Saving Zack, Jessie's father and Biggs. And sephiroth probably killed a much younger Aerith, Barret and Tifa. If he would've won in the singularity he would've assured none of the ones who opposed him in the original was left. So the world will be different in the sense that the past was way different but the present will play out like the og. The B plot of all these changes will come to a head since they'll find Jessie and culminate as Zack enters the party. Dlc for rebirth would be the journey Zack took to where they meet.
If I undrstood correctly about the concept of Whispers, they appeared in FFVII R to make sure the events of the og FFVII story remain the same in the Remake, right?
As for the Yuffie dlc, I'm still confused to why the Whispers never even appeared to prevent her from getting to Midgar while Cloud and his team were there since it never happened in the og FFVII. I guess they just forgot about it.
1:42 this piano version is from TPR to be exactly Wutai theme - A Melancholy Tribute To Final Fantasy VII
always loved it since i heard it first, TPR is so underrated...
Is Zack Dirge? or is Dirge a clone of Zack formed into Nero? No idea what's going on there besides Shinra being Shinra blindly screwing with the fundamentals of reality.
I haven't seen anything between the OG and the Remake/Intermission so all this is very very confusing.
I think half the future ff7r will happen on a parallel world. As devs don't want anger original ff7 fan and yet still want people to think this is a new game. So Zack will make a different on a parallel world that isn't on original ff7 but may happen in Crisis Core or Dirge of Cerberus yet never directly interact with the crew until pretty much the finale? I don't know much about plotting, I just think this will be the best option for Square-Enix. A diverging world-line will converge at the end, at least Arith will try?
The signs seem to point towards Zack suriving in an alternate timeline. Cloud could not have the Buster Sword if Zack was still carrying it. They put too much emphasis on the alternate Stamp art, and the cross and layout of the church are different, which, why would the devs go out of their way to tweak the church JUST for the cutscene with Zack. They will cross paths eventually, somehow. Maybe at the end or Part 2.
Zack STILL has the Buster Sword.... This is obviously another time or space, He's in the life stream. Tifa will be killed by Sephiroth while everyone is waiting for Aerith to die.
Ok so try this on for sizeXD Your own theory's logic of souls existing on varying levels of proximity to the heart of the planet actually also explains away the issue of the 'two Clouds'! Four years in the mako tank left him so waterlogged with mako that he almost doesn't need to be in the lifestream per se to be there in spirit -- his own body caries enough of it that his mind is still transported off by it. Like Jessie's father in his coma, Cloud exists half in the material world and half in dream space, and halfish of Cloud is exactly what remains beside Zack there in purgatory. It's almost more like Cloud already was there first, and Zack has merely joined him. He may be back in his own boots and upright several months later where start the plot in Midgar, but in that moment of Zack's last stand, half of him would have *already* been in this theoretical plane. All the pieces fit exactlyXD
To your point -- Yes, I think it would be very difficult to maintain the integrity of the original story if you add Zack into the mix. Which is why I don't think they're going to try to maintain the integrity of the original story. And if you think about it, Square already told us in game that they don't plan to adhere to the original story. The in-game lore database tells us that the Whispers are the keepers of fate, the enforces of the established timeline. They appear to establish order whenever someone (i.e. Sephiroth) deviates too much from fate's chosen course.
Now, by the end of Remake, we have slain the Whispers. Presumably destroyed them completely, and therefore destroyed the concept of fate. Anything could happen now. By making a point of explaining to us what the Whispers are, and then allowing us to destroy them, I think Square is establishing that nothing is certain now. There is no reason to think that any of the events we've seen before in the original version of VII are guaranteed to happen in VII:R, or happen in the same way.
I think the ending of VII:R gives them permission to tell a whole new story now. Maybe with some callbacks and easter eggs that reference the original game, but largely a new story.