naw 22:39 for the Jenova Content... everything before is just Filler 10:31 is an acceptable starting point edit BTW FIY the planet is called Gaia .. can be found in many official guides after 2004's E3 where Square gave out pamphlets promoting advent children These referred to FFVII's planet as "The world of Gaia" your welcome
then its just outdated info.. please update your title so to not mislead people thanks@@TheFirstLore like at "as of 1997" misleading people leads to reports so please keep that in mind
No, unfortunatelty I will be doing no such thing. I explain within the first few minutes where I am taking my lore from and back it up with reasoning. Also the title says "Final Fantasy 7 Lore", there is only one final fantasy 7 with no added subtitles, so it is not incorrect.
Oh snap; I looked at who made the content and who hasn’t made any. To the troll: If you want your video using the content you want to include, go for it. It might even be good. The actual content creator has clearly put in good work and very clearly stated it was all based on the game. I’ll be interested to see if the troll’s video is nearly as introspective. To the one who put in actual time and work: Awesome job on the video! I’d watch more from you any time! Amazing entertainment! Don’t let the cheap seat referees discourage you! I’m not even sure his input actually had any bearing on the title of the video “Psychology & Story of Cloud”. He just needed a good old “Look at me!” moment, but hasn’t put in the effort to make his own content. Please keep the content coming!😁
I think that what made Sephiroth insane was Jenova. Somehow she got inside of his mind and manipulared him into insanity. If we look at Sephiroth’s objectives, they seem to be the same as Jenov’s which is the world doom. Like Cloud, Sephiroth was a very confused man, without knowing about the true identity of his parents, and Jenova took advantage of this weakness and fragility and turned him in her puppet by making him believe she was his mother.
A theory i have is Sephiroth had no one to guide him, Cloud had Tifa, she was VITAL in helping him resolve the mental issues Cloud had, without her, Cloud could easily have become a true Sephiroth clone.
Hi there. I found your video through the Resonant Arc Discord. It's a good video on a topic that confuses many FFVII fans, including myself back when I was younger. Now that I'm older, I can see that the "Jenova in control" arguments are not quite as strong as I once thought, but I appreciate you pointing out the scenes that give it some credence due to the ambiguity of the writing/presentation. The cases for either Sephiroth in Control or a symbiotic relationship are much stronger and thematically consistent though. Especially with the symbolic imagery in the final battles that you examined, as well as the final, final confrontation with Cloud and Sephiroth in the lifestream. Something else that I find really important that I'm glad you touched on towards the end, was "Sephiroth's Choice". I see almost no discussion on this aspect of the character, (probably because it happens off-screen like you said), but I feel that it's absolutely CRITICAL to understanding Sephiroth as a villain. If we assume that Sephiroth did not just become a mindless drone for Jenova's will (Jenova in control theory is false), then there was a point when he was drifting through the lifestream and learned the truth about himself, Jenova, and the Cetra. Yet he still decided to ally with Jenova and go against everyone else in the entire world. He clung to the idea that he was so superior, that all other living things should all be destroyed to pave the way for him to ascend to some kind of God status. That big choice is really what cements him as the irredeemable villain that he is. And it makes sense because it's consistent with his characterization up to that point. Pre-Nibelheim he is led to believe that he's just "special". That he earned his status through his superior battle prowess. He was just so much better than the rest. He was practically untouchable, and everyone else knew it. But at this point, we can still see this as primarily Shinra's fault. That by treating him with such importance and high status that they massively inflated his ego. However... During the Nibelheim incident he's confronted with the possibility that he actually might just be an experiment. That he might not have earned his status as the greatest SOLDIER ever purely through superior talent and skill. That he may have been genetically engineered to be that way from birth. This moment shattered the identity that he had built up for himself over his career. But lucky for him, he found professor Gast's (inaccurate) research that allowed him to believe that he and Jenova were Cetra. Something that would allow him to claim that he was not just superior to all of his peers, but to all of humanity. Basically, when confronted with the idea that he might not be "the best of the best" based on his own efforts, he latched on to the first piece of evidence he could find that would still allow him to believe he was superior to everyone else... and then he instantly made that his new identity. And then he does the exact same thing, AGAIN, when he drifts through the life stream and sides with Jenova. But this time it's a new justification that allows him to believe he's not just superior to all of humanity, but all living things in the world. As he decides to absorb the very essence of their being into himself. Like a Vampire sucking the life blood of an entire world. There's just no other way to reasonably read Sephiroth (as he was depicted in 1997) other than a symbolic representation of completely unchecked ego/Narcissism. In contrast, when Cloud's identity is shattered at the Northern Crater, Tifa eventually helps him to pick up the pieces. He accepts that he's not special or unique compared to others. He had to check his ego and accept himself for who he truly is. That's what actually gave the Cloud vs. Sephiroth rivalry it's thematic depth! When faced with the idea that their sense of superiority was built on lies, one of them kept clinging to the idea that he must still be superior to others somehow, but the other acknowledged that his feeling of superiority was just masking his insecurity. And in the end, the weaker one who was actually able to check his ego surpassed the stronger one who couldn't accept anyone as an equal. But I feel like this core thematic point is lost on like 90% of the fanbase. They just think: "Sephiroth is obsessed with Cloud because he actually lost to him at Nibelheim 5 years ago. That's why they have to fight all the time."
Hey, Thanks for your feedback, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. Indeed, the 'Jenova in control' theory seems to emanate from ambiguities and unexplained areas of the plot. Not dissimilarly to have conspiracy theories and 'pseudo-science' concepts arise in reality actually. However, that's not to say that the theory is totally outlandish, but if we weigh the evidence of positive acts in the games over evidence by omission, the symbiosis/ each has their own agency theory is definitely much stronger. Completely agree on everything you've said about Sephiroth, I have thought for a while that a thorough examination of his psychology would be a compelling video in and of itself. (especially as rigjt now I am on a psychiatry rotation haha). A lot of people just label Sephiroth's sudden change as 'going insane', or 'becoming psychotic'. But i can't blame them, for a long time popular culture in fiction has confounded 'turning bad/evil' with 'going insane' 'becoming psychotic. A psychotic person wouldn't even be able to look after themselves or comprehend reality properly, let alone enact a global master plan (although that might be the reality they are seeing in their own mind). Also popular culture confounds being a Psychopath and being Psychotic, but i'll leave that for now. But, i can't blame people for thinking this way, when sephiroth does change, he does suddenly become more grandiose in his gesticulations and prose, and starts laughing maniacally and they even give him this creepy walk haha. But again this is a common fiction trope, the person who turns from out perception of good suddenly has a personality transplant and starts acting, 'crazy'. Yes exactly, The Ying and yang/protagonist and antagonist nature of Sephiroth and Cloud is so central to the plot but you have to actually think about that to put it all together on a conscious level. Though I'm sure most people understood that on some subconscious level whilst playing through the game. I almost wanted to touch on this a little in my analysis, as a reason as to why Sephiroth is acting in his own agency. But it starts to bleed the lines between the games internal lore and themes and story arcs. But, in this story clouds foil, his antagonist, his shadow, is Sephiroth. That's what makes the story and Clouds character arc compelling. The dichotomy between these two characters and of course the protagonist with the superior set of values prevailing in the end. That is the story arc that the human mind finds compelling so that is what the truth of the story is. If the developers had decided to in any way overtly make Jenova the real enemy towards the end of the game, suddenly this whole aspect of the story doesn't work. All along my real enemy was an eldritch horror from beyond the stars... What is that saying on a story/thematic level? It doesn't really work. Precisely, in fact, when present day Jenova-Sephiroth meets Cloud for the first time on the cargo ship, his first words after being addressed by cloud are: "who are you?". He doesn't even remember who Cloud was. Sephiroth, in the original, is in no way obsessed with Cloud, it is Cloud who is obsessed with Sephiroth, for both biological and psychological reasons. He is simply using Cloud in a utilitarian way to further his schemes.
Also, props for getting the work done to record your thoughts and edit it all together. I've thought a few times about making an FF7 video myself, but the idea of sitting down and pressing record feels so daunting 😅.
It was equal parts fun, rewarding, and daunting. I did it so slowly over the course of a long time and kept putting it down because of my terrible attention span, But every time i picked up momentum on a certain aspect of it, I was actually really enjoying myself But initiating a certain step was always a struggle haha. The research (playing the game and playing close attention to dialogue and looking at different translations of pivotal scenes) was actually a lot of fun. Once i got into the writing, I enjoyed it but getting stuck on ways to articulate what i meant was frustrating. The recording of words and the video editing were actually quite fun and not as boring as I thought they'd be. The only bit that was a bit laborious was collecting all the footage. I'd say, give it it a go. This is my first ever video, and I'm happy with how it turned out on the whole, and enjoyed the process. You just have to get over the cringe of hearing your own voice haha
@@TheFirstLore Hi there, after reading your comment here I actually followed through and created an FFVII/FF7R video. I just wanted to say thank you. Your video here was a good motivation to just set my mind to it and get it out there. Seeing how many people viewed your first video and responded well to the content made me realize how many of us out there actually care enough about the original story and want to preserve it's original lore and themes in some way.
Excellent video. But there are a couple things I feel I need to mention. First, Jenova is not the progenetor of Sephiroth. His reference to her as "mother" is a fallacy. Just like all the clones with Jenova Cells existed before they were injected, so too did Sephiroth. His parentage was Hojo and Lucrecia. The closest we can come to him being Jenova's progeny is down to her ability to shapeshift. The ability renders at the cellular level, not becoming one with him or creating him, but copying the cells it came into contact with. Its how in his case we end up with a more human appearace as opposed to the monsters we find in the Nibelheim reactor. But I'm opening a can of worms that is deviating from the discussion. Second.....it actually bothers me that you are refusing to acknowledge the compilation as canon. It is canon. It has been stated as such. To say it is not canon because the original creator didnt take part is more of an opinion. Take Mega Man as an example. The creator went on to other projects, but that does not make the sequels and additional series not canon to the overall story/timeline. Was the additional story just a "cash grab"? From a business standpoint, maybe it was. But the story fleshed out as it was via the compilation is no less canon for it.
It's not canon to me and a lot of other people in the FF7 community. We obviously have different opinions on canonicity in the larger sense. It's probably a bad idea to let other peoples views bother you, considering you cannot do anything about them. Unfortunately I have no further arguments that the ones I detailed in the opening of the video, so i'd just be repeating myself. Jenova being Sephiroths progenitor is a fallacy if taken literally. But not if taken thematically. Also as Jenova Cells were introduced in-vitro, it is ambiguous as too what proportion of Sephiroth is Human and what is Jenova. Thanks for watching though appreciate the compliment.
This is exactly the kind of channel I was looking for! The First Lore really knows their stuff and it’s easy listening. Keep up the great work, you got yourself another subscriber! 🤙
I think Sephiroth had the lower part of his body severed from Cloud stabbing him through with a buster sword then being thrown against a wall, or was reduced to that while traveling the lifestream because I guess you don't need legs when traversing a metaphysical essence of human consciousness. When he is encased in mako they only show his torso up because that may be all that's left of him. The rest of the game after that point whenever Sephiroth is shown physically he never has legs, which could explain the shirtless part. Also I assumed the head that was taken from Reactor 1 became Jenova Sephiroth, I don't know why but it kinda makes sense. Jenova is back at it again, making people see her as someone else and messing with their heads.
Totally agree with the half Sephiroth point. I always thought the same. However Sephiroth is shown with legs again (his field model at the centre of the planet before fighting Bizzaro Sephiroth) If the head rejoined with the body, how did it make it's way to Midgar? Not impossible but i can't see anything evidence for it in the game.
Perhaps Jenova's head attached itself to Sephiroth's detached lower half and ran to Midgar to be reunited with Jenova's torso? Then it shapeshifted into Sephiroth's previously known human form.
I haven't finished the video yet, but I do want to address one thing (technically its a fan theory, but it fills in some gaps). The reason why, at the whirlwind maze, Sephiroth suddenly seems to change how he refers to Jenova, as well as why he suddenly butchers the remaining clones, is because that is actually the first time you interact with the actual Sephiroth in the main plot. I will elaborate here, and it requires going all the way back to Sephiroth's birth. Sephiroth was a unique situation, where he was infused with Jenoa Cells when he was still developing in the womb. This means his primary development was influenced by Jenova, as compared to something alien being introduced to an already formed human. In short, this resulted in in Jenova's seal being slightly broken, specifically in reference to Sephiroth. However, this genetic modification also granted Sephiroth incredible strength, both physically and mentally, as well as the fact that he literally grew up fighting Jenova's influence, resulted in an iron clad will that Jenova could not break. Now we fast forward to Nibelheim. Sephiroth is in complete control, with no issues. That is, until the moment when he realizes that he was effectively created in a lab. The fact that his entire life has been a lie created by Shinra, was enough to create a slight crack in that will. A crack which Jenova dives into with full force. Jenova is still not able to control Sephiroth, but using that very specific crack, is able to manipulate him (essentially, the crack of having Sephiroth's entire past, and family be revealed as a lie, was filled in by Jenova manipulating a "mother" narrative.). Due to this manipulation, Sephiroth frees Jenova (a small part of it.), which Jenova wants, because the close proximity of Jenova's dormant cells to the active Cells within Sephiroth, causes the dormant Cells to awaken. However, that plan is quickly shot down as we saw. However, Shinra then attempts to create Sephiroth clones, with Cloud being the important recipient (Zack also would have been, if not for his unfortunate death.). We now jump ahead again. In Hojo's lab, Jenova's body, still mostly dormant, is being kept. Then Cloud approaches. The active Jenova cells in Cloud (Sephiroth's cells.), are able to awaken the rest of Jenova's body. Jevova, now with enough of itself awakened, that it can awaken the rest of itself remotely, causing reunion. This is where all of the parts of Jenova recombine into one, meeting up at the location with the most powerful gathering of Jenova's cells. However, Jenova's body is not the most powerful gathering of Jenova's cells, Sephiroth's body is. So, Jenova is pursuing reunion, as well as is developing its plan to effectively consume the planet. But, in order to do all this, it takes on the form of the most powerful thin on the planet, its own offspring, Sephiroth. This is why, when Cloud first confronts "Sephiroth" on the cargo ship, he has no idea who Cloud is. Its because its not Sephiroth (who would be familiar with Cloud.), its Jenova. Furthermore, we also see drastic changes in tactics used between Jenova and Sephiroth (essentially, northern crater Sephiroth, and the "Sephiroth" we see before that point.). Before Northern Crater, Jenova uses people, but generally does so in a very blunt, force them to its will, sort of way (such as when it forces control from Cloud, to take the black materia from him at the temple of the ancients.). On the other hand, Sephiroth is much more subtle in his manipulation, such as the second time that Cloud gives up the black materia, where Cloud is in full control, but Sephiroth just manipulated him to do it of his own volition. This raises the question of where Sephiroth is for most of the game. After the events at Nibelheim, Sephiroth is thrown into lifestream, where his body and soul is supposed to dissolve into it, becoming part of it. However, Sephiroth's will is too strong, so he retains his soul and sense of self, and begins to reform his body at the norther cave (when we see his true body there, we see that only the upper half of his body is present.). So, other than Jenova using his form, Sephiroth has nothing to do with the story for a significant amount of it. Finally we get to Northern Crater, where Sephiroth has put his body together enough that he can now turn his attention to Jenova. Sephiroth now starts wrestling Jenova for control. Jenova wants reunion to happen, to complete itself. Yet we see the clones with Jenova cells mindlessly walking off cliffs, and into blatantly dangerous things. We also see Sephiroth slaughtering the clones. Why is this? Because Jenova is now fighting Sephiroth for control. Sephiroth doesn't care about the clones. Reunion means nothing to him. He is able to complete his body without any of the Jenova cells. So, if the clones walk into wind walls, or step off cliffs, that doesn't matter to Sephrioth, even while Jenova is trying to recomplete itself, calling them closer. Its also here where we see the above mentioned abrupt shift in tactics. Lastly, we have the Jenova fight here. The name of this Jenova, is Jenova death. Why Jenova death? Because this is the last remnant of Jenova that is actually Jenova, as compared to Sephiroth controlling Jenova cells. By killing this Jenova, they have effectively killed Jenova, hence the "death" aspect of the name. Even Jenova synthesis is effectively just a puppet, made from what is left of the Jenova cells that were brought in by reunion, that Sephiroth just kind of threw at the party as an extra pawn. The point is, the reason why Sephiroth became so impersonal with Jenova for that specific part of the game, is because Sephiroth broke free of Jenova's manipulation, and had turned the tables on his "mother." The clones mattered to Jenova, not Sephiroth. The body matters to Jenova, not Sephiroth. Of course he would be singing Jenova's praises before that point. Its basically celebrating it's own greatness. I mean, Jenova would be narcissistic, as it literally is an entity that transcends any living being on the planet (and most likely far beyond, if the vague lore about Jenova being a cosmos traveling parasite is to be believed.). At least, it is until a hybrid created from its own dna surpasses it.
47:24 I think when Sephiroth found out Jenova wasn't a Cetra he probably snapped even more since, rather than the benevolent being betrayed by humanity he originally thought she was Jenova was the monster who nearly destroyed it.
When faced with the truth narcissists like Sepharoth instead of repent, they would double down on being wrong and become even more delusional. And this is per the psychology of narcissist personality disorder. You cannot redeem someone that could never admit to being wrong.
Amazing, Comprehensively covered. Nice to see some stuff that just focuses on the original game and not the tangle of subsequent stuff. Also the game looks amazing, I don't remember it looking this good, mods?
first off, id like to give props for such an articulate and well thought out long video, must have taken a while. i personally dont believe jenova is sentient, just a parasite looking to survive and spread out into the universe and infect everything it can, could be millions of jenova out in the universe floating about waiting to land on a planet
Great video. I’d be curious though what your thoughts are if you make a follow up ever on how things may have shifted in the subsequent compilation and remake.
Even after watching this whole video it's still confusing to me what the actual relationship is between Jenova-Sephiroth, who the party is chasing the whole game, and actual Sephiroth, who is locked up in the mako crystal in the northern crater and doesn't become active until the final boss fight. Is actual Sephiroth controlling Jenova-Sephiroth?
Who is controlling who is intentionally vague on the part of the developers and is up to interpretation by the player. A lot of what he talks about in the video are the different bits of evidence for either party being the dominant force in the Jenova/Sephiroth dynamic.
Sorry if it wasn't clearer. But yes as the @arcurusplays6899 said, it is left intentionally ambiguous. But, on the balance of the evidence presented to us, it is likely that the 'real' Sephiroth (encased in mako in the northern cave) is 'remotely' controlling the headless body of Jenova that escaped from the Shinra HQ that we chase for 3/5ths of the game that took on the form of Sephiroth.
Oh also i love this Broll, with other character models wondering around the place on their own, or just empty animated sets. This was a really creative idea.
I think the reason for the Sephiroth model at the end is because that’s his actual physical body, the very same that appeared in the northern crater when he summoned Meteor. That would be supported by the fact that he becomes spirit energy upon being defeated.
Amazing video my man. I love this game. It’s so strange to think about when I played this game 20 years ago, that I had no idea how it would take a place in my heart. I love this game. It’s the best story of all time.
I loved the shot outside your window. So much of where we were both physically and emotionally (we were kids) is important to how and why we enjoyed ff7 so much. It was a once in a generation thing. You had to be there in the 90’s to truly experience its greatness. As someone who also grew up in Britain, that shot took me back to the summers I’d play this game then run outside and play with my neighbour when we were done with a session.
For me, I played it in 2007 as a teenager, didn't have internet at the time, never even heard of Final Fantasy (was more into Pokemon at the time) but on a whim decided to buy it at a local Gamestop because it looked intriguing. Turns out it was one of the best decisions I could have ever made. And even so, it feels like I experienced it there right with all the other fans in '97.
@@zero-jm7okno im sorry but you didn't. in 1997 this was cutting edge technology, graphics and storytelling that no one had ever seen before. by 2007 all the wonder was gone and the industry was in a completely different phase. Im not saying you didnt enjoy it in your own way, but it totally was not like how we enjoyed it in 97.
@@IronShake90 I'm not referring to the technology or the industry. Those may have been different from a decades timespan but as far as story is concerned, and the "wonder", that largely remained intact to many, including myself. Especially because the internet was not as prevalent in 07 as it is today. For me, I didn't even have internet nor any modern console systems. I was stuck in the past (PSX era).
Great video, the best I've seen on FF7. I've always liked the idea that Jenova was influencing Sephiroth at a subconscious level, until his goals became one with Jenova. So he is still a conscious agent, but he was guided by Jenova to become the world ending threat we see him as. However you make some good points about it being more narratively satisfying if Seph decided on his own free will to throw away his humanity. Cloud then mirrors this, but in the end chooses humanity and life. I like how open ended it is, although I wish there was a little more backstory/development of Seph before he snaps, because it is pretty abrupt in the game. Looking at it now I still think Jenova influencing Seph is the tightest from a plot perspective, although maybe not as narratively satisfying. I'm also a fan of Eldritch horror, so I might be biased lol.
Thanks very much! Yeah you definitely can't count out that Jenova coaxed Sephiroth towards the truth in some way. As i pointed out in the video he does first lose it when close to her. Also she does 'seemingly' open the door to her chamber for him. I know what you mean about seeing more of the curve of Sephiroth's shift, but it would be very hard for the game to do without the Flashback being very drawn out and the game losing it's excellent pacing. I think though, the whole scene of 'Sephiroth continued to read as if he were possessed, and not once did the light in the basement go out'. along with the visuals of the books slowly piling up is there to do exactly that. To show us a significant passing of time. I think their is definitely an allusion here as well to the common facit of the Eldritch Horror genre that Knowledge begats/breeds madness. (or too much of it) Next video should be out tomorrow, been so busy it was supposed to be out this time last week.
While I see where you’re going with it at the end of your second paragraph, I would actually disagree regarding a subtle point and say that Cloud didn’t ‘choose’ humanity and life. I think it’s more so that he would have become just as lost as Sephiroth was if it weren’t for his friends and the love/support of his friends that gave him a metaphorical rope to grab hold of during his time of need/during moments where Jenova would try to keep breaking him. Makes you sympathize more with Sephiroth, as he wasn’t so lucky to have such a group nearby to do the same for him. Also reinforces the power of creating and establishing meaningful relationships.
Brother! This is your first video?! Talk about hitting the ground running! Holy crap! lol You’re the first person I’ve heard actually acknowledge that some aspects/moments are meant to be taken thematically instead of literally. Also, addressing the polymorphic media issue is *chef’s kiss*! Needless to say, I’ve never liked and subscribed faster in my life. lmao Keep up the good work! 👍
@@TheFirstLoreI enjoyed every minute of it. Definitely made me view a few things differently than I have before. 43 yo here so this game filled my time after a day at school or part time job
@@joenuyen6017 when I went back to university as a mature student and the nineteen year old friends i made saw me playing this game: "Your game is giving my eyes Cancer" 😅
I’ve believed for a long time that Jenova has always been the one pulling the strings. It’s thematically the only thing that makes sense. Sephiroth was either being manipulated by Jenova to act as a vessel of her will or Sephiroth actually IS Jenova , just after finally finding a suitable human form.
@@TheFirstLore Thematically it goes along with the story of personal identity that’s seen throughout the entire story. Jenova is to Sephiroth as Zack is to Cloud in a sense. Both inherit the formers purpose and pretty much lose their old identities in the process. Plus, Sephiroth has always been a tragic character who never really had his own agency. He was used by Hojo, he was used by Shinra, and when he finds out who Jenova is, he clings to her purpose. He even pushes for the Reunion. Even at the end when he’s trying to obtain godhood… wasn’t it all just in sake of fulfilling Jenovas purpose?
@@marsjake8 Whilst Cloud and Sephiroth do mirror each other in terms of both having an identity crisis, I don't really see a meaningful parallel between Jenova and Zack. I don't think Cloud really Inherits Zacks purpose in any way that I can think of? We don't really know what Jenova's 'purpose' is, as it's inherently unknowable. Although on both counts I understand what you're trying to articulate but i think it's an oversimplification on what's going on with both characters identity crises. Although they are both parts of a larger more complex thing. Whilst Sephiroth is somewhat of a tragic character as you described, I'm not sure it then thematically the only thing that fits if he then continues to have no agency and is now just being used by Jenova. Him taking back agency is just as thematically poignant if not more so.
@@TheFirstLore Well respectfully I’m have to disagree. I’ve always felt that Jenova being as powerful as she is, could easily manipulate Sephiroth by being the Mother he never had and to forsake his old identity, turn against humanity and become her vessel. It just doesn’t make sense that Sephiroth has his own agency… but that Jenova as powerful as she is, isn’t manipulating or influencing that agency. But at the end of day you could be right. Who the heck evens know. I guess that’s why I love this game. So many different perspectives on it. By the way this was an awesome video. I really enjoyed it!
Random but...I find Jenova as a cosmic parasitical horror a tad bit more interesting than Lavos from Chrono Trigger. I know that Lavos has nothing to do with this video, it was just a random thought.
A case could easily be made that FF7 was heavily influenced by and borrowed a heck of a lot from Chrono Trigger conceptually and otherwise. I could easily see Jenova being an entity in a universe such as 40K.
@@TheFirstLore I think in a few years time, we'll look back and find this to be quite eloquent, well researched, and very well done. The art direction and editing alone is top notch, man. From one fan to another, I genuinely look forward to seeing more of your content, Dr. Lore. 🤙
I’m excited to see what the final boss rush will look like in the remake. I always thought Jenova Synthesis had an interesting design that was vague by constraints of technology, but dreamweaver Jenova in remake was so detailed and horrific so who knows what we’ll get in the next game?
This reminded me of something that crossed my mind after reading the before crisis script. Sephiroth seeks the black materia, but he didn't make it. Hojo places a piece of the Zirconiade materia in Elfe, but he didn't make it. The Cetra made both materia, so did they make these two materia that can completely destroy the Planet because they knew that perhaps Jenova would escape and that there may be nothing else to be done but destroy the entirety of the Planet and Jenova altogether? I wonder.
I've thought about the existence of the Black Materia for more than 20 years. And, in that time, here's what I've come up with... I think it's nieve to assume that the Cetra were an ethnic monolith of peaceful tree huggers. Besides the obvious parallels drawn between them and migrant cultures in our own works, the world's magic system is my greatest piece of hard evidence. Materia is explicitly mentioned to be the knowledge and wisdom of the Cetra. And, for every creative piece of materia, there certainly seems to be several more destructive types. This indicates, to me, that the Cetra did war with each other in some capacity. Once you have that kind of arms race, it infrequently ends before someone creates a weapon that's an existential threat to everything. So, I believe that a faction of the Cetra must have created it prior to Jenova's arrival. To step just a little bit up on the speculation ladder, though, I tend to believe that the Black Materia was used exactly once in the past; 2000 years ago, as a matter of fact.
@@gogauze There had to be things that they had to defend themselves against, from each other or the creatures of the ff7 world not of all which were created by mako being introduced to the ecosystem. It has to be, why make weapons (materia) to destroy things if it is a completely peaceful existence for the Cetra? But to make Zirconiade and the Black materia, which are so powerful they are basically a reset button for the entire Planet, they must of had to defend themselves against something they saw as insurmountable, or its just overkill. But sadly in the real world we have basically done the same thing.
@@MoogleMom I still believe the Black Materia was not only made by a Cetra for ill-intentions, but I also believe it was the use of the Black Materia that led to Jenova coming to the planet to begin with. (By inhabiting the celestial body that fell at the Knowlespole) It would be a cruel irony if the Cetra were responsible for Jenova appearing.
Really enjoyed your point about the writers not being theistic scholars, especially that metaphor of those aspects being more akin to an artist with a brush than a surgeon with a scalpel. It is a lot of fun to reach for inferences like that sometimes, but your grounded style of analysis is less common with video essays like this and I appreciate the perspective.
Really makes me wonder that if Jenova was in fact fucking with Sephiroth’s head, what kind of crazy shit was he seeing that drove him THAT mad. (Not including what we already know, of course. )
I can’t say I fundamentally agree with the notion that 7R wasn’t an opportunity for Nojima and co. to expand on what was already there for artistic reasons. If they didn’t see any artistic merit going in, they wouldn’t have agreed to it. And the results speak for themselves. They’re excellent. Different, yes, though in spirit with with the original and nonetheless excellent.
Such an awesome video! I remember the first time I played FF7 (about 10 years old) and when I got to the Shinra HQ and the trail of blood theme started playing when Jenova/Sephy breaks out I was legit creeped out. Then I kept playing until about 1am (after getting my mind blown at the world map lol) and stopped after the Nibelheim flashback, and legitimately was creeped out by those scenes. When the Makonoid (or whatever it’s called) falls out of the pod, as well as the creepy feel of the Mt Nibel reactor (far creepier than any other reactor) until eventually Sephy goes insane with the absolutely perfect music building the tension up until “I’m going to see my mother” line. Playing the game late at night with that part left a lasting impression on me. While I do like the remake and am looking forward to Rebirth, the original will always hold a special place. But hey with “parents” like Hojo and Jenova (Lucrecia in reality)….no wonder Sephy went a bit insane. Anyway, great video and look forward to anything else you put out. Much love from Australia.
Great analysis. I like your closing theory of Sephiroth's Choice, but I do think that his choice was consistent in a certain sense, because he aligned with the Cetra when he thought he was Cetra, and aligned with Jenova once he knew the truth, so he was always choosing to side with who he thought were his kin. I also agree with you about the "Remake" and lore from other games not truly being canonical, even though I thought Crisis Core was pretty fun. It's all a money grab without much care for the preserving the lore. As a fan of the original, I've seen enough of the Remake's fundamental changes to the story to know it's not for me.
I see what you're saying, But his reasoning for 'siding' with the Cetra was because Humans were a 'traitorous' offshoot of Cetra who forsook the Cetra way of life and 'sacrificed' Cetra in order to survive and lead easier lives. That's why he calls Cloud a 'traitor'. Jenova and Human Beings have never had any involvement with each other really so the reasoning cannot translate.
Personal theory of Jenova's origins is she is the remnant lifestream of another Planet. Somehow it became corrupted that prevented itself from continuing the circle of life and so it went out into the universe to find another Planet to feed from. This would explain the eldritch, tentacle form as the tentacles represent the whisps of the lifestream. Also this explains Jenova's ability to read and manipulate memories as Jenova is literally made up of memories and can access them of other creatures. To go deeper and include the compilation, Jenova would be the Omega of that other Planet.
My personal theory I've come to thanks to your research and perspective is this: Jenova is using Sephiroth for its own goals. Sephiroth is a convenient puppet and it uses him by manipulating his memories and emotions just like it does all of his victims and it starts from their first encounter. Jenova shifts into a woman with long white hair and pale skin just as they meet in the reactor to take the form of someone Sephiroth would see as his mother. Accepting him as its child, protecting him in the lifestream, it's all part of the manipulation. Thank you for bringing up the wound in SYNTHESIS' back! I don't feel like enough people discuss the actual boss forms enough. So, I think the possibility for Jenova attacking Avalanche is to absorb Cloud and recover its missing cells to bring itself back to full power for the final step of its plan, to betray Sephiroth. If Jenova defeats Avalanche, then it can betray Sephiroth right as meteor hits and absorb the lifestream itself. Most of what makes Sephiroth so powerful is his Jenova cells and those can be remotely manipulated by it. Even if Avalanche defeats SYNTHESIS, it might still be able to take over Sephiroth's body and position itself as the inheritor of the lifestream. Even if Avalanche defeats both SYNTHESIS and Sephiroth, Jenova cannot truly be destroyed. The Cetra couldn't. It can just wait another two thousand years.
I always saw the final face off between Cloud and Sephiroth as something that was akin to a symbolic confrontation that happened inside his head where he was finally winning that mental battle over Sephiroth which he had been struggling with all game rather than an actual literal face off with him.
It's definitely not a literal faceoff. and is thematic/symbollic. But if you look at the evidence of the presentation. It pretty clearly happens in the lifestream, not in clouds mind.
Damn dude. This theory explanation is bloody brilliant. I now want to play Rebirth even more but will not be able to; it is too pricey for my means at this time. Sephiroth is an extension of Jenova since he is stronger than any other Soldier that ever existed after him and doesn’t subdue to Jenova cells’ side-effects.
The conclusion I came to personally: While it makes perfect sense that Jenova was responsible the entire time by using Sephiroth as a puppet, and there’s no denying he was at least influenced heavily initially, Sephiroth just makes for a far better main antagonist because of the revenge element and the fact that he’s the perfect antithesis of Cloud. It makes for a good hero-villain relationship and it’s probably the reason you fight him 3 times at the end of the game vs Jenova as the initial sub-boss.
Listening to all of this as someone who never played it makes me think that Jenovah could communicate with everyone who had her cells. Jenovah had some objective when she landed and was willing to destroy the beings occupying that planet already. Sephiroth was the first to actually be near her and contained her cells so she instilled a need to follow her commands. To what end was her objective? It doesn’t really matter as in both instances it looks like she aimed to be the sole survivor or at least some form of her.
Yeah I think the aims of Jenova are inherently unknowable by design. I think perhaps Jenova would have that capability if she wasn't forced into quiescence by being defeated by the cetra, but the game never gives any overt insight that Jenova is doing this.
@@TheFirstLore I don't disagree if anything I don't think the writers even came up with a reason because it wasn't important. Be it by mistake or convenient just seems like a head cannon I thought up as I watched your video. Great video btw!
Jenova is a super interesting villain. It parralels the themes of pollution and identity that run through the entire game. Jenova is a cancer to the planet that comes from something unnatural. Its basically a body snatcher in every sense of the word and strips those who are infected by it everything they were before. Sephiroth is blatantly not the same dude before finally coming to face with his "mother" sephiroth WAS a hero and probably could be labeled as tragic a loss as everyone else whose lives were affected by jenova
Even with compilation nonsense this rings true because sephiroth didn't change his morals or values even when his best friends did. What got him was the infection in his blood
i first played ff7 when i was 11, 24 years ago i was oblivious to who was in control and why i kept fighting spawns of jenova after encountering sephiroth. i played through it again at 14 and when i realized what the relationship between sephiroth and jenova truly was, it blew my mind. jenova was dead and sephiroth was dead but his will remained and it was pulling the strings and shapeshifting jenovas remains all along.
Yknow it never did dawn on me that the appearance of Jenova might not have been its original form, also might explain why they initially thought it was a Cetra.
Great video. Just wanted to share: the red underline in the thumbnail confused me at first - I thought it was the red line that RUclips shows under a video thumbnail after you've completed watching it. I almost didn't click your video as a result!
a few people have commented this, I definitely need to get around to changing the layout but i liked the thumbnails i made so much i'm reluctant do it haha. thx for watching!
I also love the fact Jenova sounds like "Jehovah" and "Nova" because i think Jehovah is the Judaian god, and Nova means new, so it also seems to me as if Shinra named Jenova in the meaning of "New God" but that's just a theory
Things to take into consideration also is during the fights with Jenova if one uses revive or cure on her it kills her or cause significant damage to her.
My interpretation of the Jenova doll is that it’s like the pharaoh’s image on a sarcophagus, it’s an idealized vision of the individual contained within and likely represents what Professor Gast thought Jenova looked like. But the entire Sephiroth going crazy sequence also makes some sense as a holdover from a previous version in which Sephiroth actually was a Cetra. One theory I came up with is that during the Cetra’s battle with Jenova they used their ability to manipulate lifestream and form Materia to extract Jenova’s soul from her body and form it into the Black Materia, which they then attempted to seal away in the Temple of the Ancients. This would essentially render her remains into a mindless (or at least severely depowered) hunk of flesh, still capable of some instinctive behavior but without the cunning and powers of the full Jenova. Jenova Synthesis then is Jenova made whole, with the essence of the Black Materia (which we never retrieve at the end of the game) having been returned to her body. That lends credence to Sephiroth being the one in control for most of the game. But I also think rather than one controlling the other they were either working together or they were fused when Sephiroth dropped into the lifestream with Jenova’s head. With the Jenova reunion and why Sephiroth is helping it along there are a couple things to consider. The first is that Sephiroth himself has been cut in half, you can see this when he’s in the materia crystal in the Northern Crater and also infer this from both Sephiroth Reborn and Seraph Sephiroth as both seem to cut off at his waste. So it makes sense he would benefit from the Reunion restoring his lost cells to him. The other is that he loves Jenova, even if he doesn’t directly benefit from the Reunion he also has no reason to deny Jenova’s desire for the reunion.
Hey. Keep up the great work. Really enjoyed this. Ff7 is also my favorite game of all time and I'm always looking for different views in the story and lore.
I haven't played the remake games and don't plan to, so I have an interesting idea about Jenova in the original game. Part of me has the belief that the meteor that Jenova arrived on was summoned by a Cetra using the Black Materia. Yes we know the Cetra hid it to avoid its misuse, but it was still created, meaning someone intended to use it. It would be kind of ironic if that is what happened.
Great video. I really appreciate your read on their relationship. I like how you point out that Jenova Synthesis isn’t really complete and she’s proving herself a lying liar who lies, yet again. My own perspective of their relationship is a bit different and puts Jenova in control of the whole thing. But it also leans into theories that aren’t necessarily back up. But also nothing seems to go against it, so there’s that. My theory is that the scientists only dug up part of Jenova, leaving most of her behind in the Northern Crater. Outside of the chunk of body the scientists still have, Sephiroth is the largest collection of Jenova cells outside of the Northern Crater. In the Nibelheim flashback, Sephiroth is shown to be a level headed if aloof leader. He shows the brutal nature he must have had in Wutai and that Shinra has as a whole. But, being their poster boy, this is to be expected. The closer he gets to Jenova, the more he starts to question the company and his place in the world. In my view, Jenova wasn’t able to fully reach him telepathically or magically until he was physically closer to a bigger piece of her. He then flips a switch and goes crazy, grabs her head and probably intended to take that head to the Northern Crater for a Reunion, but that little Shinra grunt got in the way and killed him. Sephiroth died that day and does not come back. Being not from the Planet, the head of Jenova traveled the Lifestream and was able to come up with a plan to reunite herself, destroy the world and eat the lifestream. Cloud was then injected with so much Jenova cells that *he* becomes the largest concentration of Jenova cells outside of the Northern Crater. The headless body of Jenova in the Shinra tower was dormant until Cloud came close to it and had a reaction. After the reaction, Jenova realizes the best way to get Cloud to get the Black Materia and bring it to the Northern Crater is to mimic Cloud’s memory of Sephiroth and just guided him by the nose. Also, Jenova needs a human puppet to actually use materia to summon Meteor. So, while it looks like Cloud is giving the materia to Sephiroth, Jenova through Cloud is the one actually summoning Meteor. When Cloud falls into the Lifestream with Tifa, he’s able to put himself back together and reject Jenova. In the Northern Crater, Jenova Synthesis is all the scattered parts around the world back together as one, working to protect the main part. The main part still looks like Sephiroth because that image and fear is still so strong in Cloud that Jenova thinks it’s the best way to try an overpower him. Shirtless Sephiroth is the last bit of Jenova still in Cloud (along with his views of toxic masculinity) and Cloud is able to completely expel her and she is defeated. The Lifestream then pulls her apart completely and she is finally dead and gone. Pardon my first draft essay. 😅 Just wanted to get that theory out there. If anyone uses it to make fanfiction or something, let me know and I will happily read it.
Great video. I'm working on one myself in final fantasy seven and seeing more new videos popping up on this game is always exciting. I really enjoyed the approach you took with this.
Hey! I’m replaying the game itself and I just want to clarify something with you. In the multiple scenes where the Sephiroth model comes up, how do you know when it’s actually *him* himself speaking and not Jenova-Sephiroth. I’m just rather confused in order to gain a grasp on his characterisation. Maybe it’s just a matter of me needing to read much more closely but I’d appreciate the support from you and anyone! I’m just… in denial that when I think of Sephiroth in the scenes, that it is not actually him. So it’d really help to get things clear.
Well, based on the balance of the evidence, whenever Jenova-Sephiroth is speaking, that is - Jenova's body which escaped from the shinra HQ which assumed the form of Sephiroth - It is actually the real Sephiroth who is encased in mako in the northern cave who is controlling it. So the Sephiroth we are chasing throughout the current time of the main game up until the Sephiroth we see in disc 2 in the northern cave encased in mako, is actually Jenova. But this Jenova is Sephiroth's proxy, he is controlling Jenova.
@@TheFirstLore actually wait. for clarification, how does he control Jenova-Sephiroth? Is it like projecting his consciousness to the ‘puppet’ and using his own words, or like Jenova itself speaking on behalf of him?
@@lunebbq8981 As Sephiroth has Jenova cells in him since he was a foetus, after travelling the lifestream for 5 years, he has gained the ability to control Jenova cells, so can control Jenova's headless body. Jenova is probably in a state of quiescence until the compeltion of the Jenova reunion on disc two, so is probably 'dormant' or 'asleep' up until then. Since 2000 years before that when it was defeated by the ancients
Great video! I can tell a lot of thought and research went into it. I feel the same way when it comes to the Compilation of FF 7 and I do not take it as canon. When playing the game, even for the first time, I thought that Jenova must have had intelligence equal to or greater than a human based on what I picked up from Ifalna and Gast's videos. I also believed that Sephiroth and Jenova were working together in some capacity or another rather than any one of them controlling the other. The evidence you presented here strengthens that belief. The idea that Jenova is in more of a comatose or largely weakened state until the reunion is something that I only thought about subconsciously. Your video brought it to the forefront and it makes sense that Sephiroth would be in charge until Jenova is COMPLETE. Sephiroth joining Jenova after his time in the lifestream makes sense to me because it is probably the first time that he felt he truly belonged to something. It is inferred that he did not have a nurturing childhood. Though he did seem to have great respect for Gast and it sounds like they had a positive relationship, I get the feeling that he was very much raised in a lab with scientists poking and prodding. Jenova, since we believe it to have high intelligence, may have welcomed the companionship due to traveling the Cosmos alone for who knows how long and after how many worlds. I really enjoyed this and am excited for your video on Materia.
Just stumbled onto your video. I loved it! FF7 has also been with me since I was young, I was 13 the first time I played it in '98. It was life-changing for me in every way, and as you said...it had such a profound effect on me at that time in my life, that I had never played anything like it up to that point, and have yet to play anything like it since.
Bizarro Sephiroth is both Jenova and Sephiroth combined into a single being, that's the whole point of the reunion, that's is also why Jenova Synthesis is incomplete because it is another severed part of her body if not the remaining of it, remember that a single arm or tentacle can become a living organism with its own appendages and head, so the Jenova head is likely to still be with Sephiroth, and that's is also why we see another illusion of Sephiroth before the final battle, it is likely the Jenova head mocking and making everyone trip over themselves not just Cloud this time before merging with the real sephiroth. Sephiroth obviously being the one at the top due to his strong will overpowering Jenova's, after all he is an evolved being perfectly fused with the jenova cells, meaning that he is very much a second Jenova, not just a byproduct of the meddling with the cells. At the end i guess it doesn't really matter who overpowers who since the reunion is made to form a single organism not two not three but one, and using the lifestream to evolve into a godly creature was likely Jenova's plan and reason to go to the earth to begin with, the mother's plan carried out by her son, very much like president Shinra and Rufus, Ifalna and Aerith, or in a way Zack and Cloud. That's the point of the story, not pointing out who calls the shots at the end but who has the will to carry on the legacy of their predecessors for good or bad, because life still goes on after the death of people.
Sub to this dude to help his channel grow! He’s probably making a lot of money saving lives, but we need him making more money making these awesome videos! 😂
@@TheFirstLore Haha, it’s not as good and thought out as yours but I appreciate it 🙏 definitely looking to revisit vanilla FF7 another time before rebirth comes out so your content is helpful and looking forward to more
The one thing that always bothered me about this game is that I always felt like Sephiroth's reaction and subsequent madness and rampage was too much of an over reaction given his previous personality. He's shown to be kind and caring in several instances. I could understand going after Shinra and killing them but immediately killing all of the innocent people in nibelheim never really made sense to me.
Definitely plan to make a video like i did with Cloud on Sephiroth eventually. I halfway share your sentiment, i believe it is explained, but definitely could have been established a bit better.
@@TheFirstLore i feel like it could be a lot better written, i just dont see suddenly learning that you arent totally human and are a bio weapon experiment more or less to make him suddenly no longer value humanity. That kind of thing more happens over years and years and years of abuse and mistreatment, Sephiroth was a lauded hero. He just had no real reason to do all of that. If anything - vandalizing the nibelheim reactor and destroying nibelheim id argue alerted Shinra to his villainy much faster than was tactically necessary - he's a soldier; most soldiers in their world or in any fictional world would have kept their mouth shut and then went on the rampage after idk going back to Shinra HQ and getting in a big fight with Hojo and the rest of the upper brass about it. They fail to contain him and THAT's how the madness starts. there was zero reason for him to kill innocent people when a day earlier now canonically he tries and fails to save the 2nd Shinra soldier that was accompanying us from being washed away with the current we fall into in teh recent demo. The narrative of him going insane and becoming the bad guy is still in tact imo but the way they wrote it doesn't seem realistic in terms of psychology.
@@DekkarJr We don't know how Sephiroth's life was prior to the Nibeheim incident or how his childhood was, he could have well have not been treated very well back then. Especially in his Childhood, as we know he wasn't raised by his parents. I think your theory as to Sephiroth should have done is kind of a moot point, as that's not what he did. And what someone should or would do in such a specific situation as his is purely speculative. Having said that i do have a problem with the trope in fiction in general that when someone turns 'evil' they also turn 'insane' FF7 is definitely guilty of this but so is almost every other piece of fictions, especially popular fiction. It's a bit of a cop-out i agree. Can't speak on anything in the expanded works of FF7 unfortunately. But my understanding is the FF7 remake games take place in an alternative timeline? So even if you consider the expanded works of FF7 Canon, you surely do not consider the remake games canon? As then that means all the whispers and changing fate and Midgar Sephiroth and Jenova battles are also canon?
you make some excellent points I must concede - I forgot about the fact that he wasn't raised in a normal environment with parents... that would cause underlying personality defects for sure that could manifest when triggered by something like learning the truth of his origin - 2 facts of mistreatment by humans in general right there slammed together could definitely be a solid reason to@@TheFirstLore On my "what sephiroth shouldve done" I should more properly word: what a soldier seeking revenge would've likely done. And yes it is speculative but at the time it did seem to fit better with a lifelong soldier, they don't typically go off script to that severity but you do have a point in saying that that's what he did. And it does make more sense now that you reminded me about his childhood. Once I get going on one thing I just cant help myself so i get nitpicky xD Other than that the game is airtight. I'd love to see a "Sin from FFX Explained" video by you eventually btw, it's biology, behavior, motivations and powers were always quite fascinating to me. Wait to divert from FF7 videos til after FF7 video market dies down( which could take a while ) As for your questions on the timeline thing in FF7 remake - it KIND of takes place in a separate timeline. ***** SUPER SPOILERS BELOW, tons of detail **** What ends up happening, I THINK ( im not going to explain this well cus its a confusing concept) is that Sephiroth is so powerful that even in death he is actively still somehow capable of manifesting himself through time now. so it COULD be that it's not actually Sephiroth that is alive and going back in time to do all this; imo it could be Jenova masquerading as him, but that's beside the point. This causes the justification for there to be story changes. Another major thing is that there are these kind of ghost looking time wraiths that I think are dead Cetra, reaching out from death/the lifestream. In some instances they help cloud and the others and in others they appear hostile. We think tehy are trying to keep the timeline in it's original form, probably so that Sephiroth will die like he is supposed to and can't alter it enough to become even MORE powerful. An example of where they hinder and fight the party is when Tifa, Cloud and Aerith have fought thru the train graveyard (greatly expanded section btw there's an entire chapter on it) and are at the station headed to the plate support beam they attack and stop the party from moving forward; it's never stated but I think it's because in this continuity Wedge survives the battle and plate collapse and shows up briefly in a later chapter. I think they were trying to stop the party from getting there too early or something like that and prolong the battle so that he eventually dies with everyone else. An example of where they help the party is when Jenova appears as Sephiroth in President Shinras office: He stabs Barret to DEATH. He kills him, straight up. And one of the ghosts moves through his body and it brings him back to life. There are some new characters as well, like a 3rd class soldier named Roche that you fight but don't kill; he's kind of a cool flashy guy that first shows up in a chapter that was never in the original where you go to sector 4 with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie and you fight him on your motorcycle and then later in a base you infiltrate ( this is also the first time they mention other CELLS of Avalanche as a bunch of armed uniformed men come to help bail you out and extract the 4 of you. Jessie hits on cloud A LOT in this one too during it lol. Anyway I could see them justifying keeping Roche alive and making him that likeable villain that eventually flips, because he doesn't seem to want to kill Cloud in the first place. Either that or there will be a series of fights with him and he might be a rival type of character. While i'm mentioning that there are a number of chapters that are inserted in between the original story; not all change or necessarily add to the story but they do add little interesting tidbits of lore to the world; like there is a mission after you fight your way through the train system after jumping out you get to the sector 5 reactor by sneaking train station through a bunch of catwalks that are on the bottom of sector 6 and there are big sun lamps on the bottom of Midgar apparently lol. Considerate of Shinra...you should play the game tho gameplay wise it's excellent and controls are very tight. and while some fans are divided on the story changes, I think the addition of new characters and side quests and stuff is great and I personally like it even tho im not usually big on time travel , sry this was kinda spoilery but you asked! :) I didn't tell you about the final battle tho. That breaks continuaty more than anything else cus you literally fight sephiroth after you escape the highway section after escaping shinra HQ, Sephiroth more or less opens a rift in time and you fight him and some idk Time Construct bosses that are on his side ( i think?) in what amounts to a small pocket dimension ( i think ). Also it's not just the player that sees and interacts and questions the nature of the ghosts, Rufus does after his fight as they interfere in him and heidegger moving through Shinra HQ after the party escapes by surrounding the entire building with thousands of ghosts. I think that was meant to help the party get to the time rift sephiroth opened up at the end of the highway It's all at least somewhat confusing at this point tbh. The continuaty of the next part changes a lot too - there's gameplay trailers that show the Midargsormr swamp snake fight and Cloud is dragged under the water into a deep part of the swamp before the player can kill it and Sephiroth appears says something to him that I cant remember, saves Cloud from the serpent's grasp, effectively stopping him from drowning to death and then launches the serpent out of the lake that it goes high enough to then land on and be impaled by a tree. It also seemed to be a mandatory fight as well. So yea it's changing a lot but the bones of the original are still there. Oh and to finally answer your other question I do consider FF7 remake to be canon, but only if the theory that it's sephiroth or jenova herself somehow having survived and going back through time. It's a risky plotline, but IMO it works. I can respect if people don't like it tho tbh. It does make sense if you think about it, I mean people do "return to the planet" when they die, the human parts of sephiroth mixed with jenova could have allowed Jenova access to the lfiestream, theoretically. His powers are greatly expanded not just in the respect that he's manipulating time but cus he also appears out of nowwhere during a few parts just to Cloud, causing him to hallucinate entire changes to his environment and a projection while sephiroth speaks some forboding line or two before it cuts back to reality and he's asked by anotehr character what's wrong. He gets these sudden headaches when things get changed and you see some images sometimes of what I " think" are the original timeline when this happens. sry for the length lol. super interesting topic
@@DekkarJr Thanks :) Well the new FF7 game coming out is actually just a happy coincidence and i'd wanted to make these videos for a long time. I don't know FFX nearly as well as I know FF7 but that's always an excuse to play through it again
Great video my own .2c is that i never viewed jenova as controlling sephiroth i think when sephiroth learned of his origin he adopted jenovas cause when he fell into the livestream with Jenovas head he learned gained generations worth of knowledge and sephiroth used jenovas hesd as a kind of remote control to influence jenovas body and the copies for the reunion and jenova just kinda takes a back seat from that point letting sephiroth do his thing and working with him because he is more powerful than her after falling into the lifestream
My view of their dynamic is that Jenova is of course the calamity from the skies that destroyed the Cetra. Shinra later used Jenova cells, beefed up with Mako to try and create super soldiers. They did these experiments on many soldiers, but Sephiroth was different. Sephiroth had Cetra blood via Lucrecia and the Mako'd Jenova cells interacted with Sephiroth's Cetra blood and they accidentally created a god-like super being. Things went off the rails because Sephiroth was full of trauma and misery. Cetra+Mako+Jenova cells+trauma=the perfect villain to destroy the world. I haven't figured out Cloud's significance because the game says he was a nobody before he was exposed to the Jenova cells but Idk man, he DID defeat Jenova and Sephiroth, after all...
CLEARLY Jenova is manipulating AND controlling Sephiroth. Once you see it from that perspective the whole game makes sense. Jenova is a master manipulator. It was manipulating everyone this whole time.
A valid theory, but the balance of the evidence would disagree. Most of the evidence that points in this direction is too vague or too subtle to be the developers primary intention, in my opinion.
@@TheFirstLore I think there is some credence to the thought process that she is indeed in control. You mention it yourself what use does Sephiroth really have to initiate reunion why go through the trouble when if he indeed just wants to become a god he could've triggered Meteor ages ago. In fact Its in her interest that reunion is triggered as it restores her to full power, also where did Sephiroth derive the notion he'll become a God from crashing Meteor into the planet? What we do know is that is Jenovah's final agenda for the planet and summoning Meteor is her modus operandi for killing planets. I think Jenovah's playing into Sephiroth's ego and arrogance telling him lies to leverage his power to trigger the calamity SHE's always wanted. Might I recommend playing FF7 First Soldier it goes into a bit more detail about Sephiroth's background and his motivations when he was younger.
@@checkmate7345 Thanks for watching. As i stated in opening preamble, i only consider the Original game canon. So any of the additional ff7 works wouldn't factor into my interpretation of the lore.
@TheFirstLore Either way, I think you're onto something here and brought at least for me new information to light. I believe you're right in your analysis. There is no need for Sephiroth to trigger reunion. It makes absolutely no sense for his agenda at all. I think this revelation really implies that its Jenova pulling the strings and not him as it aligns more into her interests than his own.
I have a question! Now, it's been a long time since I last played this game, but I was always under the impression that Sephiroths father was Dr Ghast, not Hojo. Is this because of the American version? Or did I just miss or not understand something?
Great video, i kinda wonder is jenova a weapon from another dying planet that carried their livestream before that planet died 🤔 that would answer a lot 😅
![NLE Choppa - Or What ft. 41 (Orchestra Mix) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/biOFASEgSOM/mqdefault.jpg)
2:49 - To skip straight to the lore
naw 22:39 for the Jenova Content... everything before is just Filler 10:31 is an acceptable starting point
edit BTW FIY the planet is called Gaia .. can be found in many official guides after 2004's E3 where Square gave out pamphlets promoting advent children These referred to FFVII's planet as "The world of Gaia" your welcome
@@Only_Some I explained that i'm not using anything other than the Original game as Canon!
then its just outdated info.. please update your title so to not mislead people thanks@@TheFirstLore like at "as of 1997" misleading people leads to reports so please keep that in mind
No, unfortunatelty I will be doing no such thing. I explain within the first few minutes where I am taking my lore from and back it up with reasoning. Also the title says "Final Fantasy 7 Lore", there is only one final fantasy 7 with no added subtitles, so it is not incorrect.
Oh snap; I looked at who made the content and who hasn’t made any.
To the troll: If you want your video using the content you want to include, go for it. It might even be good. The actual content creator has clearly put in good work and very clearly stated it was all based on the game. I’ll be interested to see if the troll’s video is nearly as introspective.
To the one who put in actual time and work: Awesome job on the video! I’d watch more from you any time! Amazing entertainment! Don’t let the cheap seat referees discourage you! I’m not even sure his input actually had any bearing on the title of the video “Psychology & Story of Cloud”. He just needed a good old “Look at me!” moment, but hasn’t put in the effort to make his own content.
Please keep the content coming!😁
I think that what made Sephiroth insane was Jenova. Somehow she got inside of his mind and manipulared him into insanity. If we look at Sephiroth’s objectives, they seem to be the same as Jenov’s which is the world doom. Like Cloud, Sephiroth was a very confused man, without knowing about the true identity of his parents, and Jenova took advantage of this weakness and fragility and turned him in her puppet by making him believe she was his mother.
Definitely possible! If it is true however, I wish we actually saw more of it reflected in the script
A theory i have is Sephiroth had no one to guide him, Cloud had Tifa, she was VITAL in helping him resolve the mental issues Cloud had, without her, Cloud could easily have become a true Sephiroth clone.
Hi there. I found your video through the Resonant Arc Discord.
It's a good video on a topic that confuses many FFVII fans, including myself back when I was younger. Now that I'm older, I can see that the "Jenova in control" arguments are not quite as strong as I once thought, but I appreciate you pointing out the scenes that give it some credence due to the ambiguity of the writing/presentation. The cases for either Sephiroth in Control or a symbiotic relationship are much stronger and thematically consistent though. Especially with the symbolic imagery in the final battles that you examined, as well as the final, final confrontation with Cloud and Sephiroth in the lifestream.
Something else that I find really important that I'm glad you touched on towards the end, was "Sephiroth's Choice". I see almost no discussion on this aspect of the character, (probably because it happens off-screen like you said), but I feel that it's absolutely CRITICAL to understanding Sephiroth as a villain. If we assume that Sephiroth did not just become a mindless drone for Jenova's will (Jenova in control theory is false), then there was a point when he was drifting through the lifestream and learned the truth about himself, Jenova, and the Cetra. Yet he still decided to ally with Jenova and go against everyone else in the entire world. He clung to the idea that he was so superior, that all other living things should all be destroyed to pave the way for him to ascend to some kind of God status. That big choice is really what cements him as the irredeemable villain that he is. And it makes sense because it's consistent with his characterization up to that point.
Pre-Nibelheim he is led to believe that he's just "special". That he earned his status through his superior battle prowess. He was just so much better than the rest. He was practically untouchable, and everyone else knew it. But at this point, we can still see this as primarily Shinra's fault. That by treating him with such importance and high status that they massively inflated his ego. However...
During the Nibelheim incident he's confronted with the possibility that he actually might just be an experiment. That he might not have earned his status as the greatest SOLDIER ever purely through superior talent and skill. That he may have been genetically engineered to be that way from birth. This moment shattered the identity that he had built up for himself over his career. But lucky for him, he found professor Gast's (inaccurate) research that allowed him to believe that he and Jenova were Cetra. Something that would allow him to claim that he was not just superior to all of his peers, but to all of humanity.
Basically, when confronted with the idea that he might not be "the best of the best" based on his own efforts, he latched on to the first piece of evidence he could find that would still allow him to believe he was superior to everyone else... and then he instantly made that his new identity.
And then he does the exact same thing, AGAIN, when he drifts through the life stream and sides with Jenova. But this time it's a new justification that allows him to believe he's not just superior to all of humanity, but all living things in the world. As he decides to absorb the very essence of their being into himself. Like a Vampire sucking the life blood of an entire world. There's just no other way to reasonably read Sephiroth (as he was depicted in 1997) other than a symbolic representation of completely unchecked ego/Narcissism.
In contrast, when Cloud's identity is shattered at the Northern Crater, Tifa eventually helps him to pick up the pieces. He accepts that he's not special or unique compared to others. He had to check his ego and accept himself for who he truly is.
That's what actually gave the Cloud vs. Sephiroth rivalry it's thematic depth! When faced with the idea that their sense of superiority was built on lies, one of them kept clinging to the idea that he must still be superior to others somehow, but the other acknowledged that his feeling of superiority was just masking his insecurity. And in the end, the weaker one who was actually able to check his ego surpassed the stronger one who couldn't accept anyone as an equal.
But I feel like this core thematic point is lost on like 90% of the fanbase. They just think: "Sephiroth is obsessed with Cloud because he actually lost to him at Nibelheim 5 years ago. That's why they have to fight all the time."
Hey,
Thanks for your feedback, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said.
Indeed, the 'Jenova in control' theory seems to emanate from ambiguities and unexplained areas of the plot. Not dissimilarly to have conspiracy theories and 'pseudo-science' concepts arise in reality actually. However, that's not to say that the theory is totally outlandish, but if we weigh the evidence of positive acts in the games over evidence by omission, the symbiosis/ each has their own agency theory is definitely much stronger.
Completely agree on everything you've said about Sephiroth, I have thought for a while that a thorough examination of his psychology would be a compelling video in and of itself. (especially as rigjt now I am on a psychiatry rotation haha). A lot of people just label Sephiroth's sudden change as 'going insane', or 'becoming psychotic'. But i can't blame them, for a long time popular culture in fiction has confounded 'turning bad/evil' with 'going insane' 'becoming psychotic. A psychotic person wouldn't even be able to look after themselves or comprehend reality properly, let alone enact a global master plan (although that might be the reality they are seeing in their own mind). Also popular culture confounds being a Psychopath and being Psychotic, but i'll leave that for now. But, i can't blame people for thinking this way, when sephiroth does change, he does suddenly become more grandiose in his gesticulations and prose, and starts laughing maniacally and they even give him this creepy walk haha. But again this is a common fiction trope, the person who turns from out perception of good suddenly has a personality transplant and starts acting, 'crazy'.
Yes exactly, The Ying and yang/protagonist and antagonist nature of Sephiroth and Cloud is so central to the plot but you have to actually think about that to put it all together on a conscious level. Though I'm sure most people understood that on some subconscious level whilst playing through the game. I almost wanted to touch on this a little in my analysis, as a reason as to why Sephiroth is acting in his own agency. But it starts to bleed the lines between the games internal lore and themes and story arcs. But, in this story clouds foil, his antagonist, his shadow, is Sephiroth. That's what makes the story and Clouds character arc compelling. The dichotomy between these two characters and of course the protagonist with the superior set of values prevailing in the end. That is the story arc that the human mind finds compelling so that is what the truth of the story is. If the developers had decided to in any way overtly make Jenova the real enemy towards the end of the game, suddenly this whole aspect of the story doesn't work. All along my real enemy was an eldritch horror from beyond the stars... What is that saying on a story/thematic level? It doesn't really work.
Precisely, in fact, when present day Jenova-Sephiroth meets Cloud for the first time on the cargo ship, his first words after being addressed by cloud are: "who are you?". He doesn't even remember who Cloud was. Sephiroth, in the original, is in no way obsessed with Cloud, it is Cloud who is obsessed with Sephiroth, for both biological and psychological reasons. He is simply using Cloud in a utilitarian way to further his schemes.
The theory that Jenova was unable to die because she was not part of the planet made a lot of sense because the Gi also suffered the same fate.
The best explanation that we get as to why the Gi didn't return to the planet is because they were 'vengeful'. Probably similar to Sephiroth's 'will'
I can't get enough of FFVII analysis so thanks for sharing your perspective on such a complex topic. Subbed to the channel 🎉
Also, props for getting the work done to record your thoughts and edit it all together.
I've thought a few times about making an FF7 video myself, but the idea of sitting down and pressing record feels so daunting 😅.
It was equal parts fun, rewarding, and daunting. I did it so slowly over the course of a long time and kept putting it down because of my terrible attention span, But every time i picked up momentum on a certain aspect of it, I was actually really enjoying myself But initiating a certain step was always a struggle haha. The research (playing the game and playing close attention to dialogue and looking at different translations of pivotal scenes) was actually a lot of fun. Once i got into the writing, I enjoyed it but getting stuck on ways to articulate what i meant was frustrating. The recording of words and the video editing were actually quite fun and not as boring as I thought they'd be. The only bit that was a bit laborious was collecting all the footage.
I'd say, give it it a go. This is my first ever video, and I'm happy with how it turned out on the whole, and enjoyed the process. You just have to get over the cringe of hearing your own voice haha
@@TheFirstLore Hi there, after reading your comment here I actually followed through and created an FFVII/FF7R video. I just wanted to say thank you. Your video here was a good motivation to just set my mind to it and get it out there. Seeing how many people viewed your first video and responded well to the content made me realize how many of us out there actually care enough about the original story and want to preserve it's original lore and themes in some way.
@@dudemcguy1227 AMAZING! I'm gonna watch it now. Could be the start of big things
An hour long video for your first upload? I'll give it a shot lol
The next one i thought would be a lot more succinct but it's shaping up to be as long haha
@@TheFirstLoreNothing wrong with being long when everything you're covering is so good. ❤❤
Excellent video. But there are a couple things I feel I need to mention.
First, Jenova is not the progenetor of Sephiroth. His reference to her as "mother" is a fallacy. Just like all the clones with Jenova Cells existed before they were injected, so too did Sephiroth. His parentage was Hojo and Lucrecia. The closest we can come to him being Jenova's progeny is down to her ability to shapeshift. The ability renders at the cellular level, not becoming one with him or creating him, but copying the cells it came into contact with. Its how in his case we end up with a more human appearace as opposed to the monsters we find in the Nibelheim reactor. But I'm opening a can of worms that is deviating from the discussion.
Second.....it actually bothers me that you are refusing to acknowledge the compilation as canon. It is canon. It has been stated as such. To say it is not canon because the original creator didnt take part is more of an opinion. Take Mega Man as an example. The creator went on to other projects, but that does not make the sequels and additional series not canon to the overall story/timeline. Was the additional story just a "cash grab"? From a business standpoint, maybe it was. But the story fleshed out as it was via the compilation is no less canon for it.
It's not canon to me and a lot of other people in the FF7 community. We obviously have different opinions on canonicity in the larger sense. It's probably a bad idea to let other peoples views bother you, considering you cannot do anything about them. Unfortunately I have no further arguments that the ones I detailed in the opening of the video, so i'd just be repeating myself.
Jenova being Sephiroths progenitor is a fallacy if taken literally. But not if taken thematically. Also as Jenova Cells were introduced in-vitro, it is ambiguous as too what proportion of Sephiroth is Human and what is Jenova.
Thanks for watching though appreciate the compliment.
This is exactly the kind of channel I was looking for! The First Lore really knows their stuff and it’s easy listening. Keep up the great work, you got yourself another subscriber! 🤙
next video drops tomorrow!
@@TheFirstLore Thank you for the heads up! I will most definitely be tuning in 🙏
I think Sephiroth had the lower part of his body severed from Cloud stabbing him through with a buster sword then being thrown against a wall, or was reduced to that while traveling the lifestream because I guess you don't need legs when traversing a metaphysical essence of human consciousness. When he is encased in mako they only show his torso up because that may be all that's left of him. The rest of the game after that point whenever Sephiroth is shown physically he never has legs, which could explain the shirtless part. Also I assumed the head that was taken from Reactor 1 became Jenova Sephiroth, I don't know why but it kinda makes sense. Jenova is back at it again, making people see her as someone else and messing with their heads.
Totally agree with the half Sephiroth point. I always thought the same. However Sephiroth is shown with legs again (his field model at the centre of the planet before fighting Bizzaro Sephiroth)
If the head rejoined with the body, how did it make it's way to Midgar? Not impossible but i can't see anything evidence for it in the game.
Perhaps Jenova's head attached itself to Sephiroth's detached lower half and ran to Midgar to be reunited with Jenova's torso? Then it shapeshifted into Sephiroth's previously known human form.
I love the way you compartmentalize the art, authors intent and personal view.
I haven't finished the video yet, but I do want to address one thing (technically its a fan theory, but it fills in some gaps). The reason why, at the whirlwind maze, Sephiroth suddenly seems to change how he refers to Jenova, as well as why he suddenly butchers the remaining clones, is because that is actually the first time you interact with the actual Sephiroth in the main plot. I will elaborate here, and it requires going all the way back to Sephiroth's birth.
Sephiroth was a unique situation, where he was infused with Jenoa Cells when he was still developing in the womb. This means his primary development was influenced by Jenova, as compared to something alien being introduced to an already formed human. In short, this resulted in in Jenova's seal being slightly broken, specifically in reference to Sephiroth. However, this genetic modification also granted Sephiroth incredible strength, both physically and mentally, as well as the fact that he literally grew up fighting Jenova's influence, resulted in an iron clad will that Jenova could not break.
Now we fast forward to Nibelheim. Sephiroth is in complete control, with no issues. That is, until the moment when he realizes that he was effectively created in a lab. The fact that his entire life has been a lie created by Shinra, was enough to create a slight crack in that will. A crack which Jenova dives into with full force. Jenova is still not able to control Sephiroth, but using that very specific crack, is able to manipulate him (essentially, the crack of having Sephiroth's entire past, and family be revealed as a lie, was filled in by Jenova manipulating a "mother" narrative.). Due to this manipulation, Sephiroth frees Jenova (a small part of it.), which Jenova wants, because the close proximity of Jenova's dormant cells to the active Cells within Sephiroth, causes the dormant Cells to awaken. However, that plan is quickly shot down as we saw. However, Shinra then attempts to create Sephiroth clones, with Cloud being the important recipient (Zack also would have been, if not for his unfortunate death.).
We now jump ahead again. In Hojo's lab, Jenova's body, still mostly dormant, is being kept. Then Cloud approaches. The active Jenova cells in Cloud (Sephiroth's cells.), are able to awaken the rest of Jenova's body. Jevova, now with enough of itself awakened, that it can awaken the rest of itself remotely, causing reunion. This is where all of the parts of Jenova recombine into one, meeting up at the location with the most powerful gathering of Jenova's cells. However, Jenova's body is not the most powerful gathering of Jenova's cells, Sephiroth's body is. So, Jenova is pursuing reunion, as well as is developing its plan to effectively consume the planet. But, in order to do all this, it takes on the form of the most powerful thin on the planet, its own offspring, Sephiroth. This is why, when Cloud first confronts "Sephiroth" on the cargo ship, he has no idea who Cloud is. Its because its not Sephiroth (who would be familiar with Cloud.), its Jenova. Furthermore, we also see drastic changes in tactics used between Jenova and Sephiroth (essentially, northern crater Sephiroth, and the "Sephiroth" we see before that point.). Before Northern Crater, Jenova uses people, but generally does so in a very blunt, force them to its will, sort of way (such as when it forces control from Cloud, to take the black materia from him at the temple of the ancients.). On the other hand, Sephiroth is much more subtle in his manipulation, such as the second time that Cloud gives up the black materia, where Cloud is in full control, but Sephiroth just manipulated him to do it of his own volition.
This raises the question of where Sephiroth is for most of the game. After the events at Nibelheim, Sephiroth is thrown into lifestream, where his body and soul is supposed to dissolve into it, becoming part of it. However, Sephiroth's will is too strong, so he retains his soul and sense of self, and begins to reform his body at the norther cave (when we see his true body there, we see that only the upper half of his body is present.). So, other than Jenova using his form, Sephiroth has nothing to do with the story for a significant amount of it.
Finally we get to Northern Crater, where Sephiroth has put his body together enough that he can now turn his attention to Jenova. Sephiroth now starts wrestling Jenova for control. Jenova wants reunion to happen, to complete itself. Yet we see the clones with Jenova cells mindlessly walking off cliffs, and into blatantly dangerous things. We also see Sephiroth slaughtering the clones. Why is this? Because Jenova is now fighting Sephiroth for control. Sephiroth doesn't care about the clones. Reunion means nothing to him. He is able to complete his body without any of the Jenova cells. So, if the clones walk into wind walls, or step off cliffs, that doesn't matter to Sephrioth, even while Jenova is trying to recomplete itself, calling them closer. Its also here where we see the above mentioned abrupt shift in tactics. Lastly, we have the Jenova fight here. The name of this Jenova, is Jenova death. Why Jenova death? Because this is the last remnant of Jenova that is actually Jenova, as compared to Sephiroth controlling Jenova cells. By killing this Jenova, they have effectively killed Jenova, hence the "death" aspect of the name. Even Jenova synthesis is effectively just a puppet, made from what is left of the Jenova cells that were brought in by reunion, that Sephiroth just kind of threw at the party as an extra pawn.
The point is, the reason why Sephiroth became so impersonal with Jenova for that specific part of the game, is because Sephiroth broke free of Jenova's manipulation, and had turned the tables on his "mother." The clones mattered to Jenova, not Sephiroth. The body matters to Jenova, not Sephiroth. Of course he would be singing Jenova's praises before that point. Its basically celebrating it's own greatness. I mean, Jenova would be narcissistic, as it literally is an entity that transcends any living being on the planet (and most likely far beyond, if the vague lore about Jenova being a cosmos traveling parasite is to be believed.). At least, it is until a hybrid created from its own dna surpasses it.
I like your theory, very interesting!
I hope Rebirth goes a little further into Jenova’s lore. Where she came from and maybe even some dialogue? Would be interesting.
I think she was inspired by The Thing (1982) which didn’t explain the origin of the creature either so they likely never will
47:24 I think when Sephiroth found out Jenova wasn't a Cetra he probably snapped even more since, rather than the benevolent being betrayed by humanity he originally thought she was Jenova was the monster who nearly destroyed it.
When faced with the truth narcissists like Sepharoth instead of repent, they would double down on being wrong and become even more delusional. And this is per the psychology of narcissist personality disorder. You cannot redeem someone that could never admit to being wrong.
love the secret of mana opening, nice touch!
Haha a man of culture I see. It was my first RPG so i had to pay homage.
@@TheFirstLoreSame! Followed by the legendary Chrono Trigger.
Spot on with the jenova doll, he also rips it away during his revelation state, symbolic in a sense.
Amazing, Comprehensively covered. Nice to see some stuff that just focuses on the original game and not the tangle of subsequent stuff. Also the game looks amazing, I don't remember it looking this good, mods?
EDIT: haha yeah i can see the mod list in the description thanks!
I hope this channel grows greatly. Good video
first off, id like to give props for such an articulate and well thought out long video, must have taken a while.
i personally dont believe jenova is sentient, just a parasite looking to survive and spread out into the universe and infect everything it can, could be millions of jenova out in the universe floating about waiting to land on a planet
Great video. I’d be curious though what your thoughts are if you make a follow up ever on how things may have shifted in the subsequent compilation and remake.
Sadly i'm not really interested in any of the media that released after the original game, so i'll be sticking to that.
Even after watching this whole video it's still confusing to me what the actual relationship is between Jenova-Sephiroth, who the party is chasing the whole game, and actual Sephiroth, who is locked up in the mako crystal in the northern crater and doesn't become active until the final boss fight. Is actual Sephiroth controlling Jenova-Sephiroth?
Who is controlling who is intentionally vague on the part of the developers and is up to interpretation by the player. A lot of what he talks about in the video are the different bits of evidence for either party being the dominant force in the Jenova/Sephiroth dynamic.
Sorry if it wasn't clearer. But yes as the @arcurusplays6899 said, it is left intentionally ambiguous. But, on the balance of the evidence presented to us, it is likely that the
'real' Sephiroth (encased in mako in the northern cave) is 'remotely' controlling the headless body of Jenova that escaped from the Shinra HQ that we chase for 3/5ths of the game that took on the form of Sephiroth.
Oh also i love this Broll, with other character models wondering around the place on their own, or just empty animated sets. This was a really creative idea.
I think the reason for the Sephiroth model at the end is because that’s his actual physical body, the very same that appeared in the northern crater when he summoned Meteor. That would be supported by the fact that he becomes spirit energy upon being defeated.
Amazing video my man. I love this game. It’s so strange to think about when I played this game 20 years ago, that I had no idea how it would take a place in my heart. I love this game. It’s the best story of all time.
Thanks so much appreciate it
I loved the shot outside your window. So much of where we were both physically and emotionally (we were kids) is important to how and why we enjoyed ff7 so much.
It was a once in a generation thing. You had to be there in the 90’s to truly experience its greatness. As someone who also grew up in Britain, that shot took me back to the summers I’d play this game then run outside and play with my neighbour when we were done with a session.
Love this mate, thanks for watching
For me, I played it in 2007 as a teenager, didn't have internet at the time, never even heard of Final Fantasy (was more into Pokemon at the time) but on a whim decided to buy it at a local Gamestop because it looked intriguing. Turns out it was one of the best decisions I could have ever made. And even so, it feels like I experienced it there right with all the other fans in '97.
@@zero-jm7okno im sorry but you didn't. in 1997 this was cutting edge technology, graphics and storytelling that no one had ever seen before. by 2007 all the wonder was gone and the industry was in a completely different phase. Im not saying you didnt enjoy it in your own way, but it totally was not like how we enjoyed it in 97.
@@IronShake90 I'm not referring to the technology or the industry. Those may have been different from a decades timespan but as far as story is concerned, and the "wonder", that largely remained intact to many, including myself. Especially because the internet was not as prevalent in 07 as it is today.
For me, I didn't even have internet nor any modern console systems. I was stuck in the past (PSX era).
@@zero-jm7ok bro, you weren’t there in 97, I’m sorry but it was just something you’ll never understand.
Excellent lore dive. I shall certainly keep up with your content
This put a lot of the story into context for me. Dope video. Definitely subbing
Excited for the road ahead for you and your career as a doctor. Hopefully you get more opportunities in the future to explore this wonderful universe.
Thanks mate, means a lot
Great video, the best I've seen on FF7. I've always liked the idea that Jenova was influencing Sephiroth at a subconscious level, until his goals became one with Jenova. So he is still a conscious agent, but he was guided by Jenova to become the world ending threat we see him as.
However you make some good points about it being more narratively satisfying if Seph decided on his own free will to throw away his humanity. Cloud then mirrors this, but in the end chooses humanity and life.
I like how open ended it is, although I wish there was a little more backstory/development of Seph before he snaps, because it is pretty abrupt in the game. Looking at it now I still think Jenova influencing Seph is the tightest from a plot perspective, although maybe not as narratively satisfying. I'm also a fan of Eldritch horror, so I might be biased lol.
Thanks very much!
Yeah you definitely can't count out that Jenova coaxed Sephiroth towards the truth in some way. As i pointed out in the video he does first lose it when close to her. Also she does 'seemingly' open the door to her chamber for him.
I know what you mean about seeing more of the curve of Sephiroth's shift, but it would be very hard for the game to do without the Flashback being very drawn out and the game losing it's excellent pacing. I think though, the whole scene of 'Sephiroth continued to read as if he were possessed, and not once did the light in the basement go out'. along with the visuals of the books slowly piling up is there to do exactly that. To show us a significant passing of time.
I think their is definitely an allusion here as well to the common facit of the Eldritch Horror genre that Knowledge begats/breeds madness. (or too much of it)
Next video should be out tomorrow, been so busy it was supposed to be out this time last week.
While I see where you’re going with it at the end of your second paragraph, I would actually disagree regarding a subtle point and say that Cloud didn’t ‘choose’ humanity and life. I think it’s more so that he would have become just as lost as Sephiroth was if it weren’t for his friends and the love/support of his friends that gave him a metaphorical rope to grab hold of during his time of need/during moments where Jenova would try to keep breaking him. Makes you sympathize more with Sephiroth, as he wasn’t so lucky to have such a group nearby to do the same for him. Also reinforces the power of creating and establishing meaningful relationships.
The plastic analogy was interesting. Great video overall 👍🏻.
Thanks very much! Yeah I thought it was quite apt.
Brother! This is your first video?! Talk about hitting the ground running! Holy crap! lol
You’re the first person I’ve heard actually acknowledge that some aspects/moments are meant to be taken thematically instead of literally. Also, addressing the polymorphic media issue is *chef’s kiss*! Needless to say, I’ve never liked and subscribed faster in my life. lmao
Keep up the good work! 👍
thanks so much, to be fair, i've had this video idea in my head for many years, just finally got around to putting it together.
This was a great listen. Thanks for taking me back!
Thanks for sitting through 50 minutes of it!
@@TheFirstLoreI enjoyed every minute of it. Definitely made me view a few things differently than I have before. 43 yo here so this game filled my time after a day at school or part time job
@@joenuyen6017 when I went back to university as a mature student and the nineteen year old friends i made saw me playing this game:
"Your game is giving my eyes Cancer"
😅
I’ve believed for a long time that Jenova has always been the one pulling the strings. It’s thematically the only thing that makes sense. Sephiroth was either being manipulated by Jenova to act as a vessel of her will or Sephiroth actually IS Jenova , just after finally finding a suitable human form.
can you elaborate on how it's the only fit thematically. I would argue that thematically Sephiroth having his own agency is the correct fit.
@@TheFirstLore Thematically it goes along with the story of personal identity that’s seen throughout the entire story. Jenova is to Sephiroth as Zack is to Cloud in a sense. Both inherit the formers purpose and pretty much lose their old identities in the process.
Plus, Sephiroth has always been a tragic character who never really had his own agency. He was used by Hojo, he was used by Shinra, and when he finds out who Jenova is, he clings to her purpose. He even pushes for the Reunion. Even at the end when he’s trying to obtain godhood… wasn’t it all just in sake of fulfilling Jenovas purpose?
@@marsjake8 Whilst Cloud and Sephiroth do mirror each other in terms of both having an identity crisis, I don't really see a meaningful parallel between Jenova and Zack.
I don't think Cloud really Inherits Zacks purpose in any way that I can think of?
We don't really know what Jenova's 'purpose' is, as it's inherently unknowable.
Although on both counts I understand what you're trying to articulate but i think it's an oversimplification on what's going on with both characters identity crises. Although they are both parts of a larger more complex thing.
Whilst Sephiroth is somewhat of a tragic character as you described, I'm not sure it then thematically the only thing that fits if he then continues to have no agency and is now just being used by Jenova. Him taking back agency is just as thematically poignant if not more so.
@@TheFirstLore Well respectfully I’m have to disagree. I’ve always felt that Jenova being as powerful as she is, could easily manipulate Sephiroth by being the Mother he never had and to forsake his old identity, turn against humanity and become her vessel. It just doesn’t make sense that Sephiroth has his own agency… but that Jenova as powerful as she is, isn’t manipulating or influencing that agency. But at the end of day you could be right. Who the heck evens know. I guess that’s why I love this game. So many different perspectives on it. By the way this was an awesome video. I really enjoyed it!
Thank you for using my art as thumbnail! Great vid 🥹❤️
No, thank you! 🙏🙏
let me know if you want me to update the description with any of your other links
@@TheFirstLoreno problem, it's perfect like that! Always a pleasant surprise to find credited artwork🥺
Hour long? New content? Here I am, work and my all time favorite game
I'm really enjoying these videos, because I'm absolutely enamoured with the world of FF7
I love how you emphasize that Jenova is a product of Cosmic Horror. One of the best videos on Sephiroth and FF7 I’ve watched.
Thanks for your appreciation, means a lot
@@TheFirstLorethank u for responding to me. I also don’t believe that Sephiroth was being controlled by Jenova.
Random but...I find Jenova as a cosmic parasitical horror a tad bit more interesting than Lavos from Chrono Trigger.
I know that Lavos has nothing to do with this video, it was just a random thought.
A case could easily be made that FF7 was heavily influenced by and borrowed a heck of a lot from Chrono Trigger conceptually and otherwise. I could easily see Jenova being an entity in a universe such as 40K.
This guy .... GETS IT !!!! DAMN!!!!!! What an absolute banger!!!! IT's way more niased!!!
I just wanna say I was here from the beginning. 🤙
Thanks I know you'll have my back when i have to make the big apology video in a couple of years time.
@@TheFirstLore I think in a few years time, we'll look back and find this to be quite eloquent, well researched, and very well done. The art direction and editing alone is top notch, man.
From one fan to another, I genuinely look forward to seeing more of your content, Dr. Lore. 🤙
@@KrusherMike thanks so much, appreciate it.
I’m excited to see what the final boss rush will look like in the remake. I always thought Jenova Synthesis had an interesting design that was vague by constraints of technology, but dreamweaver Jenova in remake was so detailed and horrific so who knows what we’ll get in the next game?
This reminded me of something that crossed my mind after reading the before crisis script. Sephiroth seeks the black materia, but he didn't make it. Hojo places a piece of the Zirconiade materia in Elfe, but he didn't make it. The Cetra made both materia, so did they make these two materia that can completely destroy the Planet because they knew that perhaps Jenova would escape and that there may be nothing else to be done but destroy the entirety of the Planet and Jenova altogether? I wonder.
I've thought about the existence of the Black Materia for more than 20 years. And, in that time, here's what I've come up with...
I think it's nieve to assume that the Cetra were an ethnic monolith of peaceful tree huggers. Besides the obvious parallels drawn between them and migrant cultures in our own works, the world's magic system is my greatest piece of hard evidence.
Materia is explicitly mentioned to be the knowledge and wisdom of the Cetra. And, for every creative piece of materia, there certainly seems to be several more destructive types. This indicates, to me, that the Cetra did war with each other in some capacity.
Once you have that kind of arms race, it infrequently ends before someone creates a weapon that's an existential threat to everything. So, I believe that a faction of the Cetra must have created it prior to Jenova's arrival.
To step just a little bit up on the speculation ladder, though, I tend to believe that the Black Materia was used exactly once in the past; 2000 years ago, as a matter of fact.
@@gogauze There had to be things that they had to defend themselves against, from each other or the creatures of the ff7 world not of all which were created by mako being introduced to the ecosystem. It has to be, why make weapons (materia) to destroy things if it is a completely peaceful existence for the Cetra? But to make Zirconiade and the Black materia, which are so powerful they are basically a reset button for the entire Planet, they must of had to defend themselves against something they saw as insurmountable, or its just overkill. But sadly in the real world we have basically done the same thing.
you're going to love tomorrows video... @gogauze
@@MoogleMom I still believe the Black Materia was not only made by a Cetra for ill-intentions, but I also believe it was the use of the Black Materia that led to Jenova coming to the planet to begin with. (By inhabiting the celestial body that fell at the Knowlespole) It would be a cruel irony if the Cetra were responsible for Jenova appearing.
This is the best telling of the FF7 story I've seen. Amazing work, please do more videos.
Really enjoyed your point about the writers not being theistic scholars, especially that metaphor of those aspects being more akin to an artist with a brush than a surgeon with a scalpel.
It is a lot of fun to reach for inferences like that sometimes, but your grounded style of analysis is less common with video essays like this and I appreciate the perspective.
the temptation to weave a narrative out of tidbits is very tempting i must admit 😅
Really makes me wonder that if Jenova was in fact fucking with Sephiroth’s head, what kind of crazy shit was he seeing that drove him THAT mad. (Not including what we already know, of course. )
Yeah it's tough to know, I think i will eventually do a story on the Psychology of Sephiroth like i did with Cloud
I can’t say I fundamentally agree with the notion that 7R wasn’t an opportunity for Nojima and co. to expand on what was already there for artistic reasons. If they didn’t see any artistic merit going in, they wouldn’t have agreed to it. And the results speak for themselves.
They’re excellent. Different, yes, though in spirit with with the original and nonetheless excellent.
FF7 is literally the Manchurian candidate. How ever no one thought to throw it in the game setting
Such an awesome video! I remember the first time I played FF7 (about 10 years old) and when I got to the Shinra HQ and the trail of blood theme started playing when Jenova/Sephy breaks out I was legit creeped out. Then I kept playing until about 1am (after getting my mind blown at the world map lol) and stopped after the Nibelheim flashback, and legitimately was creeped out by those scenes. When the Makonoid (or whatever it’s called) falls out of the pod, as well as the creepy feel of the Mt Nibel reactor (far creepier than any other reactor) until eventually Sephy goes insane with the absolutely perfect music building the tension up until “I’m going to see my mother” line. Playing the game late at night with that part left a lasting impression on me. While I do like the remake and am looking forward to Rebirth, the original will always hold a special place.
But hey with “parents” like Hojo and Jenova (Lucrecia in reality)….no wonder Sephy went a bit insane.
Anyway, great video and look forward to anything else you put out. Much love from Australia.
Great analysis. I like your closing theory of Sephiroth's Choice, but I do think that his choice was consistent in a certain sense, because he aligned with the Cetra when he thought he was Cetra, and aligned with Jenova once he knew the truth, so he was always choosing to side with who he thought were his kin.
I also agree with you about the "Remake" and lore from other games not truly being canonical, even though I thought Crisis Core was pretty fun. It's all a money grab without much care for the preserving the lore. As a fan of the original, I've seen enough of the Remake's fundamental changes to the story to know it's not for me.
I see what you're saying, But his reasoning for 'siding' with the Cetra was because Humans were a 'traitorous' offshoot of Cetra who forsook the Cetra way of life and 'sacrificed' Cetra in order to survive and lead easier lives. That's why he calls Cloud a 'traitor'. Jenova and Human Beings have never had any involvement with each other really so the reasoning cannot translate.
You should make a video talking about what Mods you use to enhance the game.
Check the video description and google '7th Heaven Mod Manager' & that should get you going
Personal theory of Jenova's origins is she is the remnant lifestream of another Planet. Somehow it became corrupted that prevented itself from continuing the circle of life and so it went out into the universe to find another Planet to feed from.
This would explain the eldritch, tentacle form as the tentacles represent the whisps of the lifestream. Also this explains Jenova's ability to read and manipulate memories as Jenova is literally made up of memories and can access them of other creatures.
To go deeper and include the compilation, Jenova would be the Omega of that other Planet.
This was really good! Please continue making FFVII videos.
I have a second video i released a few days ago, please check it out!
My personal theory I've come to thanks to your research and perspective is this: Jenova is using Sephiroth for its own goals. Sephiroth is a convenient puppet and it uses him by manipulating his memories and emotions just like it does all of his victims and it starts from their first encounter. Jenova shifts into a woman with long white hair and pale skin just as they meet in the reactor to take the form of someone Sephiroth would see as his mother. Accepting him as its child, protecting him in the lifestream, it's all part of the manipulation.
Thank you for bringing up the wound in SYNTHESIS' back! I don't feel like enough people discuss the actual boss forms enough. So, I think the possibility for Jenova attacking Avalanche is to absorb Cloud and recover its missing cells to bring itself back to full power for the final step of its plan, to betray Sephiroth.
If Jenova defeats Avalanche, then it can betray Sephiroth right as meteor hits and absorb the lifestream itself. Most of what makes Sephiroth so powerful is his Jenova cells and those can be remotely manipulated by it. Even if Avalanche defeats SYNTHESIS, it might still be able to take over Sephiroth's body and position itself as the inheritor of the lifestream. Even if Avalanche defeats both SYNTHESIS and Sephiroth, Jenova cannot truly be destroyed. The Cetra couldn't. It can just wait another two thousand years.
I always saw the final face off between Cloud and Sephiroth as something that was akin to a symbolic confrontation that happened inside his head where he was finally winning that mental battle over Sephiroth which he had been struggling with all game rather than an actual literal face off with him.
It's definitely not a literal faceoff. and is thematic/symbollic. But if you look at the evidence of the presentation. It pretty clearly happens in the lifestream, not in clouds mind.
Damn dude. This theory explanation is bloody brilliant. I now want to play Rebirth even more but will not be able to; it is too pricey for my means at this time.
Sephiroth is an extension of Jenova since he is stronger than any other Soldier that ever existed after him and doesn’t subdue to Jenova cells’ side-effects.
The conclusion I came to personally: While it makes perfect sense that Jenova was responsible the entire time by using Sephiroth as a puppet, and there’s no denying he was at least influenced heavily initially, Sephiroth just makes for a far better main antagonist because of the revenge element and the fact that he’s the perfect antithesis of Cloud. It makes for a good hero-villain relationship and it’s probably the reason you fight him 3 times at the end of the game vs Jenova as the initial sub-boss.
Great 1st video dude, can see your channel becoming something great! Keep it up man
Listening to all of this as someone who never played it makes me think that Jenovah could communicate with everyone who had her cells. Jenovah had some objective when she landed and was willing to destroy the beings occupying that planet already. Sephiroth was the first to actually be near her and contained her cells so she instilled a need to follow her commands. To what end was her objective? It doesn’t really matter as in both instances it looks like she aimed to be the sole survivor or at least some form of her.
Yeah I think the aims of Jenova are inherently unknowable by design. I think perhaps Jenova would have that capability if she wasn't forced into quiescence by being defeated by the cetra, but the game never gives any overt insight that Jenova is doing this.
@@TheFirstLore I don't disagree if anything I don't think the writers even came up with a reason because it wasn't important. Be it by mistake or convenient just seems like a head cannon I thought up as I watched your video. Great video btw!
Jenova is a super interesting villain. It parralels the themes of pollution and identity that run through the entire game. Jenova is a cancer to the planet that comes from something unnatural. Its basically a body snatcher in every sense of the word and strips those who are infected by it everything they were before.
Sephiroth is blatantly not the same dude before finally coming to face with his "mother" sephiroth WAS a hero and probably could be labeled as tragic a loss as everyone else whose lives were affected by jenova
Even with compilation nonsense this rings true because sephiroth didn't change his morals or values even when his best friends did. What got him was the infection in his blood
>disregards the compilation and acknowledges the financial motivations of square Enix.
Subbed
Someone gets it
F#ck finances
i first played ff7 when i was 11, 24 years ago i was oblivious to who was in control and why i kept fighting spawns of jenova after encountering sephiroth. i played through it again at 14 and when i realized what the relationship between sephiroth and jenova truly was, it blew my mind. jenova was dead and sephiroth was dead but his will remained and it was pulling the strings and shapeshifting jenovas remains all along.
Yknow it never did dawn on me that the appearance of Jenova might not have been its original form, also might explain why they initially thought it was a Cetra.
Definitely left intentionally ambiguous i think.
Love your analysis and presentation. It was a joy to listen to. I subbed. Keep it up!
The First Law is a White Mage
The First Lore hehe. But The First Law is an excellent book series!
ok, i will see this channel grow to expponential levels, good luck!
Good analysis man!
Thanks so much, Glad you enjoyed
Great video. Just wanted to share: the red underline in the thumbnail confused me at first - I thought it was the red line that RUclips shows under a video thumbnail after you've completed watching it. I almost didn't click your video as a result!
a few people have commented this, I definitely need to get around to changing the layout but i liked the thumbnails i made so much i'm reluctant do it haha. thx for watching!
I also love the fact Jenova sounds like "Jehovah" and "Nova" because i think Jehovah is the Judaian god, and Nova means new, so it also seems to me as if Shinra named Jenova in the meaning of "New God" but that's just a theory
Subscribed. What other games will you talk about or will this only be a FF7 channel?
I haven't thought that far ahead yet. So far I still have a lot to dissect about FF7. But definitely interested in discussing other games.
Things to take into consideration also is during the fights with Jenova if one uses revive or cure on her it kills her or cause significant damage to her.
Umm. No it doesn't...
My interpretation of the Jenova doll is that it’s like the pharaoh’s image on a sarcophagus, it’s an idealized vision of the individual contained within and likely represents what Professor Gast thought Jenova looked like. But the entire Sephiroth going crazy sequence also makes some sense as a holdover from a previous version in which Sephiroth actually was a Cetra.
One theory I came up with is that during the Cetra’s battle with Jenova they used their ability to manipulate lifestream and form Materia to extract Jenova’s soul from her body and form it into the Black Materia, which they then attempted to seal away in the Temple of the Ancients. This would essentially render her remains into a mindless (or at least severely depowered) hunk of flesh, still capable of some instinctive behavior but without the cunning and powers of the full Jenova. Jenova Synthesis then is Jenova made whole, with the essence of the Black Materia (which we never retrieve at the end of the game) having been returned to her body. That lends credence to Sephiroth being the one in control for most of the game. But I also think rather than one controlling the other they were either working together or they were fused when Sephiroth dropped into the lifestream with Jenova’s head.
With the Jenova reunion and why Sephiroth is helping it along there are a couple things to consider. The first is that Sephiroth himself has been cut in half, you can see this when he’s in the materia crystal in the Northern Crater and also infer this from both Sephiroth Reborn and Seraph Sephiroth as both seem to cut off at his waste. So it makes sense he would benefit from the Reunion restoring his lost cells to him. The other is that he loves Jenova, even if he doesn’t directly benefit from the Reunion he also has no reason to deny Jenova’s desire for the reunion.
love this, i agree with the first and third paragraph, and like the theorycrafting on the second
The next VaatiVidya for FF series? 👀
Nah his voice is as smooth as butter. I can't compete with my working class bland southern english accent 😅
That secret of mana inspired intro immediately got my sub
Hey. Keep up the great work. Really enjoyed this. Ff7 is also my favorite game of all time and I'm always looking for different views in the story and lore.
I heard the Secret of Mana intro on your video intros, nice touch ;) first RPG i ever played before FF7 ❤
Thank you for this deep analysis. I was sometimes comparing the northern crater to the nogo zones in our world. FF7 is delivering interesting thoughts
A nice way to start your channel. Subbed.
I haven't played the remake games and don't plan to, so I have an interesting idea about Jenova in the original game. Part of me has the belief that the meteor that Jenova arrived on was summoned by a Cetra using the Black Materia. Yes we know the Cetra hid it to avoid its misuse, but it was still created, meaning someone intended to use it. It would be kind of ironic if that is what happened.
Great video. I really appreciate your read on their relationship. I like how you point out that Jenova Synthesis isn’t really complete and she’s proving herself a lying liar who lies, yet again.
My own perspective of their relationship is a bit different and puts Jenova in control of the whole thing. But it also leans into theories that aren’t necessarily back up. But also nothing seems to go against it, so there’s that.
My theory is that the scientists only dug up part of Jenova, leaving most of her behind in the Northern Crater. Outside of the chunk of body the scientists still have, Sephiroth is the largest collection of Jenova cells outside of the Northern Crater.
In the Nibelheim flashback, Sephiroth is shown to be a level headed if aloof leader. He shows the brutal nature he must have had in Wutai and that Shinra has as a whole. But, being their poster boy, this is to be expected. The closer he gets to Jenova, the more he starts to question the company and his place in the world.
In my view, Jenova wasn’t able to fully reach him telepathically or magically until he was physically closer to a bigger piece of her.
He then flips a switch and goes crazy, grabs her head and probably intended to take that head to the Northern Crater for a Reunion, but that little Shinra grunt got in the way and killed him.
Sephiroth died that day and does not come back. Being not from the Planet, the head of Jenova traveled the Lifestream and was able to come up with a plan to reunite herself, destroy the world and eat the lifestream.
Cloud was then injected with so much Jenova cells that *he* becomes the largest concentration of Jenova cells outside of the Northern Crater.
The headless body of Jenova in the Shinra tower was dormant until Cloud came close to it and had a reaction. After the reaction, Jenova realizes the best way to get Cloud to get the Black Materia and bring it to the Northern Crater is to mimic Cloud’s memory of Sephiroth and just guided him by the nose.
Also, Jenova needs a human puppet to actually use materia to summon Meteor. So, while it looks like Cloud is giving the materia to Sephiroth, Jenova through Cloud is the one actually summoning Meteor.
When Cloud falls into the Lifestream with Tifa, he’s able to put himself back together and reject Jenova. In the Northern Crater, Jenova Synthesis is all the scattered parts around the world back together as one, working to protect the main part. The main part still looks like Sephiroth because that image and fear is still so strong in Cloud that Jenova thinks it’s the best way to try an overpower him.
Shirtless Sephiroth is the last bit of Jenova still in Cloud (along with his views of toxic masculinity) and Cloud is able to completely expel her and she is defeated. The Lifestream then pulls her apart completely and she is finally dead and gone.
Pardon my first draft essay. 😅 Just wanted to get that theory out there. If anyone uses it to make fanfiction or something, let me know and I will happily read it.
Great video. I'm working on one myself in final fantasy seven and seeing more new videos popping up on this game is always exciting. I really enjoyed the approach you took with this.
Awesome! I look forward to watching it. What's your angle?
I think jenova is the Daughter of Eos from FF15
Hey! I’m replaying the game itself and I just want to clarify something with you. In the multiple scenes where the Sephiroth model comes up, how do you know when it’s actually *him* himself speaking and not Jenova-Sephiroth. I’m just rather confused in order to gain a grasp on his characterisation. Maybe it’s just a matter of me needing to read much more closely but I’d appreciate the support from you and anyone!
I’m just… in denial that when I think of Sephiroth in the scenes, that it is not actually him. So it’d really help to get things clear.
Well, based on the balance of the evidence, whenever Jenova-Sephiroth is speaking, that is - Jenova's body which escaped from the shinra HQ which assumed the form of Sephiroth - It is actually the real Sephiroth who is encased in mako in the northern cave who is controlling it. So the Sephiroth we are chasing throughout the current time of the main game up until the Sephiroth we see in disc 2 in the northern cave encased in mako, is actually Jenova. But this Jenova is Sephiroth's proxy, he is controlling Jenova.
@@TheFirstLore
Oh, ohhhhh!
Okay I understand it now! Thank you so much!
@@TheFirstLore actually wait. for clarification, how does he control Jenova-Sephiroth? Is it like projecting his consciousness to the ‘puppet’ and using his own words, or like Jenova itself speaking on behalf of him?
@@lunebbq8981 As Sephiroth has Jenova cells in him since he was a foetus, after travelling the lifestream for 5 years, he has gained the ability to control Jenova cells, so can control Jenova's headless body.
Jenova is probably in a state of quiescence until the compeltion of the Jenova reunion on disc two, so is probably 'dormant' or 'asleep' up until then. Since 2000 years before that when it was defeated by the ancients
Great video! I can tell a lot of thought and research went into it. I feel the same way when it comes to the Compilation of FF 7 and I do not take it as canon.
When playing the game, even for the first time, I thought that Jenova must have had intelligence equal to or greater than a human based on what I picked up from Ifalna and Gast's videos. I also believed that Sephiroth and Jenova were working together in some capacity or another rather than any one of them controlling the other. The evidence you presented here strengthens that belief. The idea that Jenova is in more of a comatose or largely weakened state until the reunion is something that I only thought about subconsciously. Your video brought it to the forefront and it makes sense that Sephiroth would be in charge until Jenova is COMPLETE. Sephiroth joining Jenova after his time in the lifestream makes sense to me because it is probably the first time that he felt he truly belonged to something. It is inferred that he did not have a nurturing childhood. Though he did seem to have great respect for Gast and it sounds like they had a positive relationship, I get the feeling that he was very much raised in a lab with scientists poking and prodding. Jenova, since we believe it to have high intelligence, may have welcomed the companionship due to traveling the Cosmos alone for who knows how long and after how many worlds.
I really enjoyed this and am excited for your video on Materia.
Fantastic analysis!
Just stumbled onto your video. I loved it! FF7 has also been with me since I was young, I was 13 the first time I played it in '98. It was life-changing for me in every way, and as you said...it had such a profound effect on me at that time in my life, that I had never played anything like it up to that point, and have yet to play anything like it since.
Bizarro Sephiroth is both Jenova and Sephiroth combined into a single being, that's the whole point of the reunion, that's is also why Jenova Synthesis is incomplete because it is another severed part of her body if not the remaining of it, remember that a single arm or tentacle can become a living organism with its own appendages and head, so the Jenova head is likely to still be with Sephiroth, and that's is also why we see another illusion of Sephiroth before the final battle, it is likely the Jenova head mocking and making everyone trip over themselves not just Cloud this time before merging with the real sephiroth. Sephiroth obviously being the one at the top due to his strong will overpowering Jenova's, after all he is an evolved being perfectly fused with the jenova cells, meaning that he is very much a second Jenova, not just a byproduct of the meddling with the cells. At the end i guess it doesn't really matter who overpowers who since the reunion is made to form a single organism not two not three but one, and using the lifestream to evolve into a godly creature was likely Jenova's plan and reason to go to the earth to begin with, the mother's plan carried out by her son, very much like president Shinra and Rufus, Ifalna and Aerith, or in a way Zack and Cloud. That's the point of the story, not pointing out who calls the shots at the end but who has the will to carry on the legacy of their predecessors for good or bad, because life still goes on after the death of people.
interesting theories!
Damn why are the OG graphics so clean and improved?!
Check the video description!
Dope art at the beginning! I’m in
Sub to this dude to help his channel grow! He’s probably making a lot of money saving lives, but we need him making more money making these awesome videos! 😂
I'm a doctor in England so not making that much money hahaha. but thanks for watching
Great work. Earned a sub.
This is your first video? Good job dude. I wanted to skim your channel for more 😂
there is one more currently! Another in a few days
@@TheFirstLore yea I watched the other one first 😜 I turned on notifications though. Pumped for rebirth, so I'm binging FFVII stuff haha
Which mods do you use for those backgrounds?? Would love to know
Check the video description!
@@TheFirstLore Thank you my bad!
2:48 which mod or version of the game is this you are showing right now? I would be interested in getting a hold of that
mods in the description!
There’s something about FF7 that drives someone to create their first video as something highly edited and scripted. Good work, and cheers
Cheers mate, Will definitely check out your FF7 vid when i get a chance!
@@TheFirstLore Haha, it’s not as good and thought out as yours but I appreciate it 🙏 definitely looking to revisit vanilla FF7 another time before rebirth comes out so your content is helpful and looking forward to more
The one thing that always bothered me about this game is that I always felt like Sephiroth's reaction and subsequent madness and rampage was too much of an over reaction given his previous personality. He's shown to be kind and caring in several instances.
I could understand going after Shinra and killing them but immediately killing all of the innocent people in nibelheim never really made sense to me.
Definitely plan to make a video like i did with Cloud on Sephiroth eventually. I halfway share your sentiment, i believe it is explained, but definitely could have been established a bit better.
@@TheFirstLore i feel like it could be a lot better written, i just dont see suddenly learning that you arent totally human and are a bio weapon experiment more or less to make him suddenly no longer value humanity. That kind of thing more happens over years and years and years of abuse and mistreatment, Sephiroth was a lauded hero. He just had no real reason to do all of that. If anything - vandalizing the nibelheim reactor and destroying nibelheim id argue alerted Shinra to his villainy much faster than was tactically necessary - he's a soldier; most soldiers in their world or in any fictional world would have kept their mouth shut and then went on the rampage after idk going back to Shinra HQ and getting in a big fight with Hojo and the rest of the upper brass about it.
They fail to contain him and THAT's how the madness starts.
there was zero reason for him to kill innocent people when a day earlier now canonically he tries and fails to save the 2nd Shinra soldier that was accompanying us from being washed away with the current we fall into in teh recent demo.
The narrative of him going insane and becoming the bad guy is still in tact imo but the way they wrote it doesn't seem realistic in terms of psychology.
@@DekkarJr We don't know how Sephiroth's life was prior to the Nibeheim incident or how his childhood was, he could have well have not been treated very well back then. Especially in his Childhood, as we know he wasn't raised by his parents.
I think your theory as to Sephiroth should have done is kind of a moot point, as that's not what he did. And what someone should or would do in such a specific situation as his is purely speculative.
Having said that i do have a problem with the trope in fiction in general that when someone turns 'evil' they also turn 'insane' FF7 is definitely guilty of this but so is almost every other piece of fictions, especially popular fiction. It's a bit of a cop-out i agree.
Can't speak on anything in the expanded works of FF7 unfortunately. But my understanding is the FF7 remake games take place in an alternative timeline? So even if you consider the expanded works of FF7 Canon, you surely do not consider the remake games canon? As then that means all the whispers and changing fate and Midgar Sephiroth and Jenova battles are also canon?
you make some excellent points I must concede - I forgot about the fact that he wasn't raised in a normal environment with parents... that would cause underlying personality defects for sure that could manifest when triggered by something like learning the truth of his origin - 2 facts of mistreatment by humans in general right there slammed together could definitely be a solid reason to@@TheFirstLore
On my "what sephiroth shouldve done" I should more properly word: what a soldier seeking revenge would've likely done. And yes it is speculative but at the time it did seem to fit better with a lifelong soldier, they don't typically go off script to that severity but you do have a point in saying that that's what he did. And it does make more sense now that you reminded me about his childhood. Once I get going on one thing I just cant help myself so i get nitpicky xD
Other than that the game is airtight.
I'd love to see a "Sin from FFX Explained" video by you eventually btw, it's biology, behavior, motivations and powers were always quite fascinating to me. Wait to divert from FF7 videos til after FF7 video market dies down( which could take a while )
As for your questions on the timeline thing in FF7 remake - it KIND of takes place in a separate timeline.
***** SUPER SPOILERS BELOW, tons of detail ****
What ends up happening, I THINK ( im not going to explain this well cus its a confusing concept) is that Sephiroth is so powerful that even in death he is actively still somehow capable of manifesting himself through time now. so it COULD be that it's not actually Sephiroth that is alive and going back in time to do all this; imo it could be Jenova masquerading as him, but that's beside the point. This causes the justification for there to be story changes.
Another major thing is that there are these kind of ghost looking time wraiths that I think are dead Cetra, reaching out from death/the lifestream. In some instances they help cloud and the others and in others they appear hostile. We think tehy are trying to keep the timeline in it's original form, probably so that Sephiroth will die like he is supposed to and can't alter it enough to become even MORE powerful.
An example of where they hinder and fight the party is when Tifa, Cloud and Aerith have fought thru the train graveyard (greatly expanded section btw there's an entire chapter on it) and are at the station headed to the plate support beam they attack and stop the party from moving forward; it's never stated but I think it's because in this continuity Wedge survives the battle and plate collapse and shows up briefly in a later chapter. I think they were trying to stop the party from getting there too early or something like that and prolong the battle so that he eventually dies with everyone else.
An example of where they help the party is when Jenova appears as Sephiroth in President Shinras office: He stabs Barret to DEATH. He kills him, straight up. And one of the ghosts moves through his body and it brings him back to life.
There are some new characters as well, like a 3rd class soldier named Roche that you fight but don't kill; he's kind of a cool flashy guy that first shows up in a chapter that was never in the original where you go to sector 4 with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie and you fight him on your motorcycle and then later in a base you infiltrate ( this is also the first time they mention other CELLS of Avalanche as a bunch of armed uniformed men come to help bail you out and extract the 4 of you. Jessie hits on cloud A LOT in this one too during it lol. Anyway I could see them justifying keeping Roche alive and making him that likeable villain that eventually flips, because he doesn't seem to want to kill Cloud in the first place. Either that or there will be a series of fights with him and he might be a rival type of character.
While i'm mentioning that there are a number of chapters that are inserted in between the original story; not all change or necessarily add to the story but they do add little interesting tidbits of lore to the world; like there is a mission after you fight your way through the train system after jumping out you get to the sector 5 reactor by sneaking train station through a bunch of catwalks that are on the bottom of sector 6 and there are big sun lamps on the bottom of Midgar apparently lol. Considerate of Shinra...you should play the game tho gameplay wise it's excellent and controls are very tight. and while some fans are divided on the story changes, I think the addition of new characters and side quests and stuff is great and I personally like it even tho im not usually big on time travel , sry this was kinda spoilery but you asked! :) I didn't tell you about the final battle tho. That breaks continuaty more than anything else cus you literally fight sephiroth after you escape the highway section after escaping shinra HQ, Sephiroth more or less opens a rift in time and you fight him and some idk Time Construct bosses that are on his side ( i think?) in what amounts to a small pocket dimension ( i think ). Also it's not just the player that sees and interacts and questions the nature of the ghosts, Rufus does after his fight as they interfere in him and heidegger moving through Shinra HQ after the party escapes by surrounding the entire building with thousands of ghosts.
I think that was meant to help the party get to the time rift sephiroth opened up at the end of the highway
It's all at least somewhat confusing at this point tbh. The continuaty of the next part changes a lot too - there's gameplay trailers that show the Midargsormr swamp snake fight and Cloud is dragged under the water into a deep part of the swamp before the player can kill it and Sephiroth appears says something to him that I cant remember, saves Cloud from the serpent's grasp, effectively stopping him from drowning to death and then launches the serpent out of the lake that it goes high enough to then land on and be impaled by a tree.
It also seemed to be a mandatory fight as well. So yea it's changing a lot but the bones of the original are still there.
Oh and to finally answer your other question I do consider FF7 remake to be canon, but only if the theory that it's sephiroth or jenova herself somehow having survived and going back through time. It's a risky plotline, but IMO it works. I can respect if people don't like it tho tbh. It does make sense if you think about it, I mean people do "return to the planet" when they die, the human parts of sephiroth mixed with jenova could have allowed Jenova access to the lfiestream, theoretically. His powers are greatly expanded not just in the respect that he's manipulating time but cus he also appears out of nowwhere during a few parts just to Cloud, causing him to hallucinate entire changes to his environment and a projection while sephiroth speaks some forboding line or two before it cuts back to reality and he's asked by anotehr character what's wrong. He gets these sudden headaches when things get changed and you see some images sometimes of what I " think" are the original timeline when this happens.
sry for the length lol. super interesting topic
@@DekkarJr Thanks :)
Well the new FF7 game coming out is actually just a happy coincidence and i'd wanted to make these videos for a long time.
I don't know FFX nearly as well as I know FF7 but that's always an excuse to play through it again
Great video my own .2c is that i never viewed jenova as controlling sephiroth i think when sephiroth learned of his origin he adopted jenovas cause when he fell into the livestream with Jenovas head he learned gained generations worth of knowledge and sephiroth used jenovas hesd as a kind of remote control to influence jenovas body and the copies for the reunion and jenova just kinda takes a back seat from that point letting sephiroth do his thing and working with him because he is more powerful than her after falling into the lifestream
My view of their dynamic is that Jenova is of course the calamity from the skies that destroyed the Cetra. Shinra later used Jenova cells, beefed up with Mako to try and create super soldiers. They did these experiments on many soldiers, but Sephiroth was different. Sephiroth had Cetra blood via Lucrecia and the Mako'd Jenova cells interacted with Sephiroth's Cetra blood and they accidentally created a god-like super being. Things went off the rails because Sephiroth was full of trauma and misery. Cetra+Mako+Jenova cells+trauma=the perfect villain to destroy the world.
I haven't figured out Cloud's significance because the game says he was a nobody before he was exposed to the Jenova cells but Idk man, he DID defeat Jenova and Sephiroth, after all...
Lucrecia wasn't a Cetra, what trauma and misery did Sephiroth have that we are aware of?
Great vid, bro
CLEARLY Jenova is manipulating AND controlling Sephiroth. Once you see it from that perspective the whole game makes sense. Jenova is a master manipulator. It was manipulating everyone this whole time.
A valid theory, but the balance of the evidence would disagree. Most of the evidence that points in this direction is too vague or too subtle to be the developers primary intention, in my opinion.
@@TheFirstLore I think there is some credence to the thought process that she is indeed in control. You mention it yourself what use does Sephiroth really have to initiate reunion why go through the trouble when if he indeed just wants to become a god he could've triggered Meteor ages ago. In fact Its in her interest that reunion is triggered as it restores her to full power, also where did Sephiroth derive the notion he'll become a God from crashing Meteor into the planet? What we do know is that is Jenovah's final agenda for the planet and summoning Meteor is her modus operandi for killing planets. I think Jenovah's playing into Sephiroth's ego and arrogance telling him lies to leverage his power to trigger the calamity SHE's always wanted. Might I recommend playing FF7 First Soldier it goes into a bit more detail about Sephiroth's background and his motivations when he was younger.
@@checkmate7345 Thanks for watching. As i stated in opening preamble, i only consider the Original game canon. So any of the additional ff7 works wouldn't factor into my interpretation of the lore.
@TheFirstLore Either way, I think you're onto something here and brought at least for me new information to light. I believe you're right in your analysis. There is no need for Sephiroth to trigger reunion. It makes absolutely no sense for his agenda at all. I think this revelation really implies that its Jenova pulling the strings and not him as it aligns more into her interests than his own.
I agree. Sephiroth is a normal dude in the past
I have a question! Now, it's been a long time since I last played this game, but I was always under the impression that Sephiroths father was Dr Ghast, not Hojo. Is this because of the American version? Or did I just miss or not understand something?
Gast was in charge of the Jenova Project, and is Aerith's father. Hojo is Sephiroths father. Same in all versions.
Great video, i kinda wonder is jenova a weapon from another dying planet that carried their livestream before that planet died 🤔 that would answer a lot 😅
I believe that idea is explored in some of the compilation of ff7 stuff? I'm not too sure as I don't know that much about it.