Do Speaker Measurements Really Matter? Find Out What A Loudspeaker Manufacturer Says !
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Do speaker measurements really matter when selecting a loudspeaker? Well today i interview a famous loudspeaker designer - Michael Borresen who will give us his take when it comes to this topic!
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Measure for consistency of product/production..your ears 👂 are the final judge.
yea but for production standpoint it has to measure well
@@MasterofPlay7thats what he Sad to😂
I bought Tekton Design Moab’s. They got my attention after winning best in show and surprised many reviewers. On the Tekton Facebook page, lots of customers upgraded from Double Impacts and said Moab’s were a huge improvement. They measured well but not perfect. After having them I went to Magnolia and heard B&W 802s and Kef’s using McIntosh amps and it didn’t sound anywhere as good as the Moab’s with my very limited amps and Denon AVR. If the measurements had major problems I wouldn’t have bought but they seem similar to other high end speakers. Tekton Moab’s is the most I wanted to spend and was a fantastic choice.
Measurements vs the way a speaker is designed is the difference between fatigue and no fatigue . When a speaker measures poorly it may fool someone for a bit . However they will find themselves listening less often due to fatigue or some bad tones
I used to believe the same thing. It turns out, however, that unless the peaks/dips don’t have diametric peaks/dips to subjectively counteract them, or the peaks/dips are massive, the speaker will not necessarily be fatiguing. It’s my new belief that fatigue
primarily results from driver/cone breakup and distortion, not from non-textbook crossover design.
Not long ago I owned some highly regarded speakers that produce nearly perfect textbook measurements. They were certainly good, but I have since moved onto speakers that don’t measure nearly as well on paper, yet they are far easier on my ears in extended listening. The new speakers sound 100% balanced, whereas the previous speakers had something objectionable going on that I could not identify anywhere in the graphs. I hypothesize that’s because the graphs didn’t include distortion level plots. Regardless, I can listen to the new “imperfect” speakers for far longer with zero fatigue, all while hearing more detail.
The ASR crew is seeing this and their hive-mind is imploding 😂
Low blow 😂 1 point deducted
They still don't understand about transient , they can't mesure it so it doesn't exist ! ... 🙃
To me, it's only part of the equation, the final decision is made by my ears 😁
I don't like hard, thin sounding speakers even if they measure superbly. Ideally, I want to know what's on the recording without euphonic colorations but a dry, clinical presentation is not for me. Thank you for asking this very important and contentious question.
Based on your statement what speaker brands have you found your ears like.
Great to hear from an expert in the industry. Thank you gentlemen.
Indeed one does not go without the other.
I was a hardcore believer in speaker measurements until very recently. That is because as my journey progressed, I was finding that the speakers I gravitated toward were ones that scored high in linearity. My more recent experience with speakers that sound incredible but do not measure so well in terms of linearity, or dispersion even, has completely ruined that philosophy for me. It’s ironic that you interviewed Michael for this topic since one of his designs contributed to my newfound enlightenment.
My new hypothesis is that driver distortion is far more audibly consequential than any moderate non-linearity, or less than “ideal” dispersion. Some of the newer flagship B&W towers are a good example. They don’t remotely produce a textbook impulse response, yet they sound completely non-fatiguing and coherent to my ears. B&W has massive R&D resources and budget, so they could easily design a “textbook” Floyd Toole-approved design if they so desired. I don’t care for B&W’s 600 or 700 series though. Even though they produce a similar response curve in measurements, they don’t sound nearly as enjoyable as the 800s. I can only surmise that is likely due to the 800 series having better behaved drivers and lower overall distortion.
Paradigm is another enigma from a measurements perspective. If you were to judge their model lineup based on measurements, you’d conclude their entry-level Premier series is better than their flagship Persona series, because the latter is considerably inferior according to the graphs, but no one is going to subjectively prefer the Premiers to the Personas when listening. They’re not even close. This example is especially relevant because Paradigm has a strong history with the NRC and is well versed in Floyd-Toole’s research. Like B&W, they possess the resources necessary to achieve any speaker response curve and behavior they desire, yet they choose to disregard the Toole philosophy for their flagships. These days I’m of the belief that Toole’s research, while important and respectable, did not crack the code for majority listener preference. More research needs done in that field.
Great interview. I value this a lot. When I spoke with him on a number of occasions at the show.. I never did have a camera recording it. I did manage to capture Lars for a good chat.
Jay, there is nothing Better than Highly Trained Ears to confirm that Speakers sound good! Collective Agreement can be Confirmation, but still not the "End All Be All" for everyone! 😎💪
Yes, trained ears with acoustical live music.
I agree with both of you. Go ahead and give it a listen, but I have long avoided speakers that measure high (have peaks) or dips in certain areas. I know from experience what I will get. But I am willing to listen if possible. Thanks for sharing this video!
Micheal is correct. It's the mix of objective and subjective. Personally, imo, I favor his approach.
I am correct when guys were talking about this at tecton., Your ears has the final say.
Thank again Jay for your work.
Sound always because a def person can do a measurement that's why people who mix the music have headphones 🎧 to listen to what is happening in the music
Well said gentlemen!!!!!
I've never bought a speaker through measurements. All I know about my speaker purchases are. DBs and ohms. Even then I don't take much notice.
It's all about the sound for me. And synergy with the rest of the system.
Yes it's the synergy between every part of the equipment and the room.
Every time a fix the bumps and dips of my speakers, I constantly perceive a better sound quality, sometime a lot, some other time just a little depending on the brand of speakers. So measurement always matters to me, you can try it using Dirac Live.
Transient "quality" is way more important than linearity in sound reproduction , you can hear that with good headphones for example. But sure the best is to get both of it , linearity and fast transient response.
Going to one designer and trying to dismiss measurements because it goes against your beliefs makes you look desperate and childish. Go ask Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, Jack Oclee Brown, etc and youll get a totally different answer.
Please rewatch the video. Michael Borresen, who has been awarded patents for innovatively advancing loudspeaker design, does not dismiss measurements but uses them as an objective reference point which is followed by subjective 'in room' listening tests over an extended period.
Defensively it feels like AGD is taking over the audiophile world 🙂
Agreed 100% this is way I'm fan od Denmark loudspeakers brands, they understand the humans
Im becoming a big fan of Denmark Audio Group...I would love to hear more of their speakers in person.
They are very good, it is worth to take a listen to them. Actually a new pair of Z5 cryos are on the way to me, I bought 3 month ago some Z3´s but I want more 😀
@@MrFlextor I'm a hybrid user of speakers...50/50 home theater and music listening. I wish they would add a center channel to some of their lineups. Would be an instant buy.
@@MrFlextor Are Z series signficantly better than the X series?
@@350125GOW I honestly can´t tell you how big of a difference is in between their line-ups. In the last few month I had the Chance to listen to a pair of Z3 cryo ( mine by now ), Z5 cryo, 03 cryo and a pair of X6.
There is a difference, my favorit one is the Z5 due to the use of 4 pc 8 inch "woofer", I don´t have to think about Subwoofers anylonger, at least for my taste...
The Z5 in "normal" conditions are not significantly better than the X6, but the difference is obvious when you listen in the upper third of their volume range, here the Z5 "pushes you through the sofa" compared to the X6.
@@Linkone7 Well, I only listen music and have no HT usage. From the 2.x standpoint they are very attractive - they fit my taste.
Have I heard better speakers? Of course, but they where massivly more expensive than the Borresens.
A very smart man 👌😊
Jay, It was great running into you outside of the Serenity room that the C1 were in. My thoughts on measurements is that they are a great place to start but final judgment should be with the ear.
I have a lot of technical friends. They say: "if I can't measure it, you can't hear it", all cables and amps sound the same or there is something wrong with it", etc. But I am a Conservatory musician and hear differences in two seconds. Science is oke, but changes during the years. So they are talking bull shit.
Great video
Im new to this hobby/ interest. Are speaker measurements important according to room size. Huge speakers in a small room are pointless as you can't experience fully its soundstage 🤷♂️
Denmark Audio Group is really good at Marketing, that you can say for sure!
Great marketing, yes. Their ironless woofer motor design leads the industry at the moment. Their cabinet construction is average.
I think you can have a great sounding speaker that measures well too. That’s what I prefer.
The problem with a speaker that doesn't measure flat is that certain types of music or instruments may sound unnatural and that this is missed in their subjective listening sessions.
Measurement-first people are devoted to the mental picture that there is something uniquely specific on any given recording and that through measurements one can get that exact something to come out of their speakers and hit their ears. Perfect “accuracy”. A 100% match to the recording. If the resulting sound is awful, they will simply tell you that you are hearing “what the artist intended” and you’re better off suffering through the ordeal. To my mind, their argument is flawed on multiple levels. For one, it seems to me that while there are measurements that can tell you whether what is being reproduced matches what is on the recording in SOME respects, there is no set of measurements that can tell you whether what is being reproduced matches what is on the recording in EVERY RESPECT. Hence, system selection must always be in part (if not entirely) subjective. And then there is the problematic assumption that perfectly accurate reproduction via measurements - if it were even possible - would necessarily equate to allowing one to” hear” the artist’s intent. It wouldn’t. There are too many other factors this would leave unaccounted for.
From my experience, I believe, more important is smooth transition between 1/24 octaves rather than the final average frequency response graph. That's why major dsp fixes which forces drivers to act flat on average always ends up sounding terrible and much better is acoustic treatment using thick pannels even though the final fr might be far from flat
People act like what they are hearing in a speaker canot be measured. I think the problem, including myself, is that it is difficult to interpret a graph. We all have different tastes in sound, which is nothing more than coloring the music to our liking.
agree! if there was a formula for perfect sound, we would have figured it by now.
Good piece Thanks!
Why do people get this every time wrong, of course measuring speaker is important and the base for every serious speaker manufacturer. And it is the respect from the speaker manufacturer to the customer to know that they are doing their homework. There are many things to watch and take care that the speakers working in an optimal range. Avoiding distortions, getting the phases and time issues right and avoid different gain levels etc.... Of course there has to be measurements. But there is indeed the subjective impression of a speaker from the listener,.that has different reasons. But to understand that this is not a contradiction is something that not many people are capable of. Anyway most speaker manufacturer have their own sound philosophy but mainly it is curve that is not flat, and that has many reasons. Let alone that all of them know that every speaker sound different in different rooms.
They should teach this stuff in school
I kinda disagree with the notion that there's this battle between subjective listening and measuring as to which one is most important. It's been both, and has always been both except for those speaker companies that couldn't afford an anechoic chamber, klippel, etc. This is precisely what Michael Borreson is saying. To his point, the culmination of Revel's research is in the speaker listening tests, and the only time they release a speaker is when it achieves wide, uniform dispersion, fairly uniform output throughout the frequency spectrum (3dB or better typically), and bests the competition in the Harman Double blind speaker tests with lower distortion and great transients. Great measuring speakers sound better than poorly measuring speakers and Harmon has proven that in 86% of their tests. Can someone prefer a speaker that doesn't test as well, sure. Our ears are not always uniform either. Appearance has a bias too. Some people simply prefer the other speaker. Those of us who've been in audio long enough have purchased a speaker that sounded one way in a showroom only to have it sound not as good, or perhaps better, in our listening environment. To me, there's no argument over personal preference. You like what you like, no qualms. But at the end of the day, one thing is true, manufacturers can't skimp on measuring and they can't skimp on listening tests. www.thescreeningroomav.com/revel
Having heard plenty of Harman and Revel designs (and owning a few), I can tell you Borresen’s designs are on a completely different level of performance. Even his entry level models are considerably superior to Revel’s flagships.
Well according to the folks from another RUclips channel, measurements is all you need. I think some of them don't even turn their stereo set on: they spend hours reading measurements and saying: "oh this one is great". Probably, most of them have never bought a stereo set at all: numbers are cheap after all.
lol 🤣
All that said, i would like to see some measurements of this speaker.
Seeing as how many people can't go and easily get a demo of speakers, measurements can help.
Both measurements and listening are very important.
Its funny how 'measurement' in this vid only refers to on axis response. Measurements are more than that. Dispersion, distortion, even PIR, all that matters. Why would I buy a speaker that is hard to fix when I set it up in my room? Why would I want an uneven dispersing speaker when I know that by itself to lead to problems like stereo stabilisation? Why would I like a speaker that has high 3rd harmonic distortion at 3khz? With all that said, even a good measuring speaker has to be listened to before I purchase it, no two ways about it. Objective measurements and subjective listening has to go hand in hand, both are equally as important, and that includes MEASUREMENTS. Time to stop downplaying measurements like they dont matter, when you set up your room youll most probably be scrambling for REW. The hypocrisy is real.
They don’t matter - my ears are the only thing that matters.
@@jaysaudiolab you do you.
Own dipole speakers 🔊
Tuning is Everything 😊
Listen to room reflections
Please note, measurement equipment doesn´t buy speakers on a regularly basis, but people who are willing to listen do 😉
The room is most important to me
Yes, because every room "sounds" different.
@@Peter-ii4xq once the energy leaves the speaker, the room has control of it
Waterfall plot is very important, it shows you how much the speaker is still moving air when the signal stops. Step response is very important showing the designer if all speakers in the system is in phase. Thats why Vandersteens sound so good..
This is from a 64 year old Black man O.G, music lover and hi-fi enthusiast. As long any piece of equipment is not reminding me of what it is, I wouldn't pay too much attention to measurements. My system is a mixture of panels, subwoofers, analog, digital, tubes and transistors. System synergy, when it is right will cancel out measurement parameters. Just keep spinning the vinyl, silver disk, reels and etc. my fellow music lovers and audiophile brethren!!👍😁
Anechoic chamber measurements are necessary but useless at the if the day, what matters is in-room measurements as each room will force the speakers to sound in a particular way
Of course the sound is important but if a speaker only goes down to 35hrtz you can’t say that speaker has great bass cause it doesn’t it can’t do both matter
I have a pair of x6 and man
Speechless
That introduction is always hard to take. Its twice as loud as his content.
Good measurements can hide poor performance. So buying on specs or tests alone does not work. But good measurements can also confirm good sound. I see no reason a good sounding speaker would not test well. Perhaps the bigger problem is how well tests are being performed!
Some people like speakers that measure poorly.
@@RennieAsh Many people like speakers that sound poorly.
Magazine articles notwithstanding, I sort a feel the only real way to find out if speakers work for you is to actually listen to them. In your own room, if possible. This is why dealers are so important.
I do think though that measurements can sometimes be useful in areas like efficiency, power requirements and such.
Michael doesn't like DSP
Florian doesn't like DSP
HT, not for 2 channel 😮
I would rather watch JAL than the super bowl!
I believe you want the speaker to be able to reproduce the signal it is being sent accurately and that's its job..
This borresen guy making excuses for his poor speaker designs. Raidho speakers are really badly engineered and measure really poorly. What you want is a neutral speaker not a huge dip or peak at midrange like raidhos do. i dont understand these designs, i have heard raidho speakers and they sound awful.
He might be a speaker designer but he is a speaker designer for wealthy hard core audiophiles. And he knows them very well: they love snake oil and romance and mumbo jumbo pseudo audio esoteric jargon. His agenda is clear. And obvious.
At that price, it is definitely snake oil.
So, you have heard inexpensive speakers that sound better than the Borresen’s? List the setup that does, against the complete Borresen setup that you heard that made you convinced it was “mumbo jumbo”.
@@trajan350the speakers may sound good, it doesn't discount that he knows how to market.
Maybe someone can compare something like ascend sierra speakers
@@trajan350 so you are one of the useful generous who believe in fables. Good for you.
@@chalcedonv6997nope - just believe in my ears.
yea but for production/quality control standpoint it has to measure well
and there you se why we danes make some of the worlds best drivers and speakers ourer tenical insight and knowhow 🙂