RedBulls secret weapon is Adrian Newey Lol he’s an aerodynamic genius that’s been around for over a decade, producing some of the best cars the world has ever seen. Keep in mind Adrian has 13 world championships with Williams, McLaren and RedBull 😂
It is a shame that Cosworth could not attract a customer base, they were well-placed a few years back to be an independent engine supplier, but the teams chose to go with the established manufacturers.
I still think that it is vital for McLaren to remain independent even if it will hinder their performance in the short term. Also I think the VW group manufactures would want far more control than people think. They would not spend hundreds of millions to create an engine to supply Mclaren who is a competing sports car manufacturer
They could do the engine supply of the McLaren road cars as well... Lamborghini and McLaren aren't really sold to the same people. With McLaren they'd have more to offer...
Do you really think such a historic team like McLaren gonna sell its majority shares to another manufacturers who will have complete control over things....the livery the drivers huh
That still turned out for the best for Williams, as much as it hurt Williams in the short term, when BMW left they nearly burned Sauber to the ground. I doubt the British government would have stepped into save Williams the way the Swiss gave Peter Sauber millions to keep the team running.
@@mclarenm1 the deal I heard was 25%. But even if it was 50% of the team, 50% of a title contender is worth more than 100% of a backmarker, and I think that’s the path McLaren is on without a works deal
Tbf Red Bull did great with renault in the early 2010s, Aston Martin is currently out performing Merc, Mclaren were able to beat renault in 2020. And thats just from the modern era of F1. Yes they will have harder time, and as a mclaren fan I was really disappointed to see that we wouldn't be becoming a full works teams. But just look at ferrari, they are a full works team but also have a lot of t kcorporate interference. With their current car, if they had a works engine they wouldn't sky rocket to the top of the championship but the corporate interference might just keep them at the back
Cause it’s not that much of an option. GM said themselves that they were in talks with a current Manufacturer (seems to be Renault) and while they would take care of the engines and eventually maybe (yes I wrote that on purpose) make an engine themselves some years down the line, until then wouldn’t be a real works engine just another customer engine rebadged for GM. It’s also the same risk as with Audi and Porsche if they did their own engine , it being new and therefore likely to be a bit behind with the lack of crucial Data from past seasons. It would be an interesting Cooperation but it would also take years for it to prosper if at all and would consume way more money.
@@Eeraz Yep this exactly. GM isn't going to pour money into an ICE program, especially a V-6 one, maybe if they still ran V-8s (which is what I thought they should do for 2026, NA V-8 running efuel or biofuel with hybrid drive, bring back the noise!). GM is spending a lot of money on electrification though, so maybe a Cosworth ICE with a GM hybrid drive. The new hybrid Corvette is supposed to be, well, let's just say not slow, and it took Toyota 8 years to catch up to the tech and performance numbers of the Volt; so GM must be doing something right in the hybrid department. This arrangement could also have Cosworth make the ICE portion of GM sports cars and McLaren super/hyper cars.
@@anydaynow01 while interesting to think of, 3 Party’s in separate locations working on 1 PU and Aero package Is gonna be way to slow for the competition that can change stuff at hand. Plus I believe the costs would be way to high to run such a task with the steadily lowered Cost Cap. In the old days where they could throw money at will, maybe. Iam not against the idea in general but realistically I don’t see it working.
@@ronaldkoontz6875 it even sadder considering next to Ferrari they are the oldest Team. 60 Years and they missed going with the times much like Williams did though with more Financial backing. I hope I get proven wrong and the new Facilities give them a huge boost but I don’t see them Challenging for Championships anywhere in the near future.
@@arg_9584 4-5th seems to be about the kinda team McLaren is these days. Honestly, same with Alpine. We'll see in a few years whether or not they're really about changing that but for right now, that's it. Hell is it even, now that there are "4" top teams (or 3 upper midfield teams), that might be 5-6 now. 6 for McLaren.
It is just very difficult to win race as a customer these days. If you're the top priority like Red Bull with Honda, thats one thing, but buying from Merc or Ferrari and having to use there gearbox, rear suspension, and cooling parts makes it very hard to ever be faster than the Merc or Ferrari. And from what I understand the customer teams get dinged harder from a cost cap perspective than the works teams when it come to manufacturing vs buying those parts. Maybe with Aston leaving Merc, that will help McLaren but I don't know how. The engines are built to such exact specs these days that they just dont make bad engines any and even if Merc cherry picks the best dyno'ing engines it's not going to be a very noticaable advantage.
I still don't understand why Mclaren haven't produced their own engines. I know it's a huge investment, but surely it would benefit their road car division also. As they currently outsource that production too.
They don't sell enough cars to do that and the number of complaints about the reliability and build quality of McLarens "cheaper" cars are astounding. Especially with Lamborghini competing in the same price range with a reputation for quality, reliability and very easy to find parts and repair.
Mclaren's car engines actually come from the Nissan R390 GT1 which was developed by TWR. Making an F1 engine is not easy and takes decades to master. Mclaren will be left in the cold either they become a full works team or if not try to develop their own engine if they want to continue their independance. I dont see any other option for Mclaren. Mclaren and Williams are in the deep I dont see them getting out unless things change from top to bottom. Ferrari may be doing crap at least their futures are secured not to mention even with the budget caps it allowed them outsource their stuff to other racing programs like the GT3, Ferrari Challenge and WEC soon hopefully they will make the 499P join IMSA with Risi Competizone.
I still imagine what will happen if Ron Dennis not force Honda to make engine in one year and must fit its concept car,maybe we will see another McLaren & Honda domination again
Honda got loads of experience and testing data because of what Ron Dennis did. He's also not the one who broke up relationships with Honda. Alonso and Zak Brown did.
@@paperplane-db8qf Folks forget Ron got the boot also when he tried to set the team on the correct path, kind of like what happened with Prost at Renault and Brawn at Mercedes. The wrong toes were stepped on and feelings got bruised so the folks with the cash wanted them gone, one of the reasons I hate Toto so much. As much of a punk Horner is, at least he rarely ever made Newey feel unwelcome, he knows what's keeping that team alive.
McLaren’s fatal mistake was blowing up their partnership with Honda, which ended up in them literally going bankrupt. Honda was giving them a free engine AND $50,000,000 a year on top of that (that’s unheard of). Had they shown loyalty Honda would have paid them back with at least 10+ years of loyalty.
@@alimanski7941 not far far... Once upon a time great team, but now Mclaren now will be a customer of an engine unless they find an engine supplier other than those in the grid, Audi and Honda. Before being sold, Williams did not permit taking control of BMW. It wanted to be independent, but failed. Bad management No light at the end of the tunnel
@@birandkoray And it's not like their road car business is faring much better. At least Ferrari is killing it with its tin tops and Le Mans victory car (not a Ferrari fan just facts). They and Alpine have a lot in common, they missed catching the talent from the cost cap brain drain from Mercedes and Red Bull. In truth they need to team up with Cosworth for engines with heart for their road cars and a works F1 program where they don't badge swap the engine and give Cosworth the credit. If they don't play the blame game like they did with Honda and Renault and actually worked with Cosworth great things will come out of it eventually. Just look at how they came through with the T.50 engine for GMA.
Honestly I feel like McLaren is a big enough brand/team to be able to do their own engine. It's honestly somewhat surprising to me that they haven't pursued it yet, especially if there are seperate cost cap regulations for works teams (extra head room for the engine and its developement) and customer teams
Too big of an investment, they just got done spending updating their existing facilities and they don't have any prior experience with building hybrid powertrains. It would be a recipe for disaster.
@@mrgalaxy396 Yep, and I don't think they even make the engine for their road cars. Been saying this since they fell out with Mercedes the first time in that they need to work with someone like Cosworth, and buy a sister team like Williams or Haas to double down on the budget for R&D especially with the cost cap these days.
They may be big enough but as recently as 2020 McLaren sold off their own factory as they don't have any capital, they needed the funds just to run the race team as is, let alone start an engine project...
They aren't. They have the amount of money of Renault in Enstone. And recently they had to restructure their whole organization to generate some money mesning they sold and leased back the whole of Woking. McLaren can't even make the engines for they roadcars (Ricardo) who the hell would they be able to do it for F1?
Only 1 "works" team has won championships in the V6 turbo era and that's Mercedes. McLaren is being held back by the car and not its customer status. Being a works team hasn't helped Alpine or Ferrari. It's not a huge drawback.
I just don't see Mclaren ever besting the likes of Mercedes or Redbull, now perhaps even Aston Martin. Who knows what will happen once Audi joins the grid too. That being said I'm excited for the 2026 regs, mainly for the weight reduction.
@@ygaudreault nah I don't think so, but they'll lose more staff if they remain dominant and it'll hurt them for the 2026 regs. I imagine they'll still be a top 3 contender though, their team is just well oiled despite technical shake-ups.
@@LouSassol69er Idk, Horner often said a advantage RB had was a clear link to Deitrich. Need money to sign Adrian, call Dietrich. Need money for a factory, call Dietrich. Now, replace Dietrich by a board. In the long run they will lose what made Red bull.
@@ygaudreault it will happen, but only when Horner and Newey decide to leave for whatever reason. Usually when you lose such big figures the team just starts to slide into averageness. Especially when they have been there since the beginning of the team and are key people that made it successful.
This is why McLaren will never move forward. They are scared of risks. Formula 1 is a high risk sport. You don’t succeed without risks. Look at aston martin for example.
McLaren is not the only one odd team out, Williams and Haas are there also as independent teams that will use a customer engine. But I see the three ending up fighting for scraps in the near future if they don't get it right.
Williams and Haas are de facto B teams alongside the actual B team in AT of the big three. Hell Williams is currently led by a Mercedes guy. Haas is literally operating out of Maranello. McLaren is stuck in the void between works outfits and actual customers.
@@mrgalaxy396 I don't think McLaren running Renault customer engines is any kind of problem. I don't however, understand McLaren's switch to Mercedes, instead of pursuing a closer relationship with Renault like sharing the same gearbox to cut costs.
I dont think the situation of the team is that bad They have talented guys (Promodrou, now Rob Marshall), they have problem with infrastructures but they know it and they work on it. My only fear is that the constructor stop to exist because of lack of money.
They weren't on the rise again. They luckily got Pat Fry in who they needed after Matt Morris resigned because McLaren had announced James Key for the next season. Morris and Key have a negative history. So Pat Fry wasn't planned but he designed a pretty good chassis and James Key updated that for 2020 and 2021. Then in 2022 he needed to design a car himself from scratch and he couldn't do it.
McLaren are doing a lot of things right to correct the path the Seidl-Key partnership cost them with the new regulations & I think Zak Brown has done a fantastic job overall at McLaren whilst getting a lot of the blame for technical issues that he isn't responsible for BUT his insistence that a customer team can win the championship is one of the few red flags that he is showing.
mclaren used to be a top 3 team for over 20 years while ron dnnis ran it and he ran it good and it worked NOW zak brown maybe of got some money in there but the team is CRAP they dont win they dont get in the top 10 so what has zak really dune to this team other then break it
@@murphychris9811 Ron left in 16 and 17 when McLaren were more dog than even in recent years, so you can't colour him in glory either. Zak has been taking L's but acting like he took over a winning team is silly.
@@murphychris9811 because of Ron Dennis Mclaren is in this hole! When he was outsed Mclaren was an empty car,with no sponsors and even sponsors that were on the car from 30 yrs ago like Boss,Tag Heur,were gone not to mention the poor infrastructure,so please spare me with the Ron the Midas agenda!!!
@murphychris9811 don't make it sound like Ron Dennis didn't take Ls, Mclaren's downfall alr started when Ron Dennis was around, leading to him being replaced. Frank Williams is oso responsible for Williams being crap
There's lots of irony here. Both Audi and Porsche would have wanted to clean house at McLaren, without that I doubt McLaren is actully capable of designing a title winning car. The biggest irony of course will be if Audi having recently hired James Key as technical director beats McLaren. While Key took the fall he may well not have been the problem and Andreas Seidl and Audi certainly don't think he was.
I can see them partnering with Chevy due to Indy if Andretti Cadillac gets the go ahead since GM has expressed interest in building engines so as not to stay Renault customers too long. I see the decision to stay Mercedes customers as the best option they had and honestly would not have sold out to Audi or Porsche if i were them, they wanted far too much for too many unknowns in return
Exactly. Would be a shrewd move at the cost of possibly alienating a few of McLaren’s existing semi-works motorsport teams that compete against McLaren. Would really be a great move if it included a significant McLaren-Chevrolet collab for both NASCAR & McLaren-Cadillac for FIA WEC/IMSA.
But I don’t think GM was ready to build a new engine for f1 I think they wanted to rebrand the Renault engine as a Cadillac. So it wouldn’t be a manufacturer deal either. And I’m not sure GM is ready to spend all the money required to build a f1 engine themselves.
@@TheLeewi98 you underestimate how big GM is then. If Andretti enters as a McLaren type partner, as a test mule for the GM engine it could be very successful. I do see GM entering at some point.
@@SuperfluousIndividual You're dumb if you're trying to make that point with a straight face. Obviously money is important but to sit there and defend the actions of a guy who's never talked about going for above 4th. This is the same guy who tried to put a driver salary cap while remaining on the unlimited list, Zak Brown doesn't have ambitions of putting his team forward he's determined to drag every team down to his level. You can be focused on money while being a racer. Look at Toto or Horner. They show up to every race, they prioritize their teams, they prioritize progress whereas Zak wants to slow everyone down so he can continue living in the past.
@@SuperfluousIndividual I'm sure it's little more than a business for Stroll and Co. too - and look on them. They have no history, no works background, still achieved more in recent years, than this sorry excuse of "historical" team, what is McLaren became... I'm really starting to feel sorry for Lando, for listening for years of McL's bs promises, while sticking with them... Ohh and let's not forget about the soft drink company which makes such famous automobile giants look like clowns. Is it more than a business for them?
I was thinking - if Cadillac is really that interested into getting in F1, they could partner McLaren (since Andretti is clearly not coming unless one of the teams is up for a sale).
McLaren is a road car company. They don't want to promote competitors over their own products. That's why you don't see any Mercedes stars on the car or suits like it's the case with Williams.
@@KAMiKAZOW There were Honda logos on the McLaren very recently, and there will be Honda logos on the Aston Martin soon. It can hardly be a big deal. Obviously there were Mercedes stars on the McLaren for free in 2010-2012 as part of McLaren's payment to buy out Mercedes' share of McLaren ownership.
@@TassieLorenzo With new ownership structure and management come new priorities. Orange color, involvement in multiple race series, etc. are all to bolster the McLaren brand. Whether Stroll's personal F1 team will carry the same branding as the Aston Martin road car company that's partially owned by Mercedes Benz AG remains to be seen. Maybe he'll buy the stake Mercedes owns and Honda will provide engines for upcoming Aston Martin road cars. Afaik those details are not public.
It's a false equivalency to state you have to manufacture your own engine or have exclusive rights to one. Mercedes clearly makes an excellent engine and McLaren's issues have nothing to do with lack of power. In fact, they never use the excuse of a poor PU as to why they are performing poorly. It was my understanding that Porsche wasn't going to be a manufacturer, but use Audi's PU with whatever team that agreed to their terms. Given they are both part of VW, I doubt VW would sign on to two development teams. It is also my understanding that Porsche wanted naming rights as well, like Afla Romero. BTW, with GM going with the Andretti bid that is one less manufacturer to go with.
McLaren had great success in the past using an engine from another manufacturer. In the days of the Bruce & Denny CanAm show, the McLarens were powered by aluminium big block engines supplied by Chevrolet but cast by the Winters Foundry, in Canton, Ohio. The aluminium big blocks were intended for racing only but some were built for use in the Corvettes and Camaros under a COPO number for high performance 'stock' applications. Today the 'Chevrolet' Indy engine, 2.2 liter, twin turbocharged V6, is built by Ilmor Engineering, conveniently located in Brixworth, UK. As Andretti has already secured Cadillac support for an entry into F1, perhaps Cadillac would like to get an early start and rebadge an Ilmor 1.6 liter single turbo V6 for Mclaren, or call it a Chevrolet and let Andretti have the Cadillac brand when they finally get a team into F1. Zak is very supportive of greater US participation in F1, as are Liberty. What could be better for Zak and McLaren than a Chevrolet label on their engine cover, or even the Cadillac brand.
Shame. Interesting why Red Bull didn't sell a majority stake in AlphaTauri - or, the entire team - to Porsche, other than the obvious desire to reduce the number of true competitors in the field. Would love to have seen Toyota return as a works engine partner - ideally with Haas, both with deep roots in American motorsport. Surprising that a Cadillac-Haas partnership never transpired once it became clear that Andretti's efforts to join the field weren't well received. A Williams-Cosworth reunion would have been interesting. Perhaps McLaren is thinking of starting it's own powertrain division (like Red Bull) - or perhaps buying into a company like Cosworth.
They're following the footsteps of Williams- a once championship winning team fading into the backfield and will never be able to compete with factory teams. It's sad.
Mclaren has no patience. Since even before Ron Dennis left they've been trying to rebuild. Had they stuck through every one of their deals correctly, they would be a top 3 team. I think it's time Mclaren stops being Mclaren, humble themselves and pour all of their efforts into whatever they have. I know Zack can make it happen but even he needs to give it time to work. Unfortunately Lando cannot wait. Aston is a good example of a calculated return to form by putting the correct people and deals in place to be winners in the future. A bit of luck doesn't hurt but its about time they've had that success being traditionally a giant slayer with Force India and then Racing Point. Lawrence Stroll has vision and patience that I'm not sure Zack can match.
Winning as a customer team? So many comments being posted saying it can't be done. Why not? F1 is incredibly dependant on aerodynamics and McLaren appears to be making all the correct investments in this area.
Because a customer team winning the championship barely happens. U don't have to make ur own engine, but the supplier definitely need to has your team as its priority number 1. And by a customer team winning the championship, im struggling to rmb anyone who won wcc as a customer team from the late 1990s to now
@@therealquaid1694 on that regard it's mostly their new inhouse wind tunnel that will be finally build. Using the one from Toyota in cologne after the original one in woking got too small, isn't that optimal. The Toyota one is also very old.
@@javierplays9516 I hear you but just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean it can't happen. We will never know for certain but Red Bull may have won more championships had Renault produced an engine as good as the Merc between 2014-2020. I think it's fair to say McLaren's issues are not with its power unit.
I really don't see it as an impossibility to get a customer deal to be competitive. The rules stipulate the same spec engine must be available to all teams and there are development freezes. It mostly depends on how similar your vehicle architecture aligns with the works team and all the teams are heavily converging on the same design.
The only a customer team can be competitive is to copy the team supplying the engine outright because they build the engine around their car while customers have to make the var around the engine That's what Racing point did in 2020 and you could see how well they did.
What about GM though? Mclaren has a good collaboration with Chevrolet as engine supplier in IndyCar. I could see that happening, depending on the Andretti interest as well. Either way, I have a feeling that someone between Alpha Tauri, Haas and Williams won't be on the grid in 2026. It's quite a lot of time until then and many things could change.
McLaren buying Haas and giving it to Andretti to run as a sister team, then both teams run Cosworth ICE / GM (Cadillac) hybrid PUs. It will take them a couple of years to catch up like it did for Honda but that's a match that could very well work out in the long run, if they get started on it like yesterday!
@@anydaynow01 Mclaren does not have money. They may be more stable now due to the loans they got from Bahrain, but these loans have to be payed back. That's the reason they "collaborate" with so many sponsors today.
When has GM ever shown they can build an F1 engine? I mean, I'm sure, especially with these new regulations, that they could. But they were never interested in F1 and in spending this amount of money. AT and Williams will be on the grid. They have proper backing, and Williams could also be bought. Haas would've left already if he wanted to so they will still be here. And they are also running a very cheap organization since their development is based on everything they can buy from Ferrari within the regulations.
The video seems to have missed out on the fact McLaren as a Renault customer did beat the Renault works team in both 2019 and 2020 on merit. If McLaren before and now Aston Martin can in some capacity beat their works counterparts, what's stopping other customer teams from doing what seems like the impossible at the top step? There have been customer teams before who have somehow nailed the technical rules better than their works counterparts. If McLaren can somehow pull it off then who knows maybe the works engine supplier comes to them instead.
You very well could be right here. But let's not forget about something, it's McLaren who we talk about. They are failing for how many years now? 2 decades? Is there any employee remained there, who saw success with their own eyes back in late '90 early '00?
@@Edua1111 fair point, given 2022 should've been the turning point favoring McLaren as they were competing against Ferrari for best of the rest in 2021. We would've had a 4 way tussle or at least 3 way last year but McLaren suddenly recessed.
"The last time this happened was when Red Bull was the de facto Renault works team" so how does this count? They were the works team like they were in 2021 for Honda, or.....?
My guesses for the final engine deals (AlphaTauri not included as it'll probably be a RB-Ford customer): McLaren - Mercedes customer Alfa Romeo Haas - Ferrari customer Williams - Alpine customer
What is stopping McLaren from developing their own engine? Is it just money? Cause they develop them for their consumer cars so it seems like they at least have the capability tech wise.
Mclaren was the defacto Mercedes factory team from 97-2009. Where they were championship practically every single year, Then Mercedes went to be a factory team and Mclaren really went downhill since 2013.
Interesting to think that this year, there was little to no talk about uncompetitive engines on the grid. Maybe RBP has the edge, but Alpha Tauri doesn't show it, otherwise all engines seem to be competitive. Maybe Alpine is a bit further down, but who knows, and they're for sur not far off.
great video, but i don’t understand how RB counts as a works team in 2021-22? is it purely based on how close the working relationship was with honda? every customer team has engine supplier engineers on hand for assistance and feedback so it seems like a blurry line to draw a distinction
I’ve given up on McLaren. Was rooting for them in 19 and 20 after signs of life but they just don’t have a clue what they’re doing and full of excuses. Shame cause the drivers are great. And the livery sucks
I’d like to see the FIA change/tighten the rule to say that each manufacturer can only have one other customer, forcing either Mclaren or Williams to jump to either Audi or Honda.
Let's wait and see how the new RB Powertrains motor goes in 2026. But Honda back with McLaren would have been ideal I think. Be interesting to see how the Aston/Honda partnership works out over the next decade between their respective management teams.
It’s a Shame mclaren couldn’t lock in a deal with Honda to be a true works team. But seeing how Aston martins performing with a supplier engine, I’m glad Aston and Honda are tying up. Now they’ll need to remove stroll.
The PU isn't the issue at McLaren, so signing on with an engine manufacturer wouldn't change much. It is investing heavily in infrastructure and technical direction for the future. Porsche came in negotiations with unreal expectations.
Imagine giving up 75% of the company to Audi, only to have Audi's engine completely flop? I would argue that's riskier than the position McLaren is taking to just stick with Mercedes. The Merc engines have always been consistent, powerful, and reliable. And Aston is proving this year that you can build a podium winning car while being a customer team. It may seem weird on the surface, but I actually agree with their decisions to turn down Audi and Porsche. They're better off sticking with what they have while waiting to see if they can get a works engine deal later on that doesn't cost them the majority of the company. That's my two cents at least.
Zak brown wants to drag every team down to his level before investing in anything to push the team forward. Stop supporting them and let Zak suffer. This guy was the main advocate for the driver salary cap all while he would remain on the unlimited list. What a joke.
In this ground force era, being a works team is crucial to success. I just can’t see a customer team winning a championship anytime soon. McLaren still feel as far away from success as they have done over recent years for this very reason in my eyes.
McLaren waiting and seeing which engine is best could work, there’s no guaranteed success for any of them. But it’s not a good look to be one of the 4 without when the other 3 are the small teams
Im convinced both Alpine and McLaren will never achieve wdcs with their current structure. Aston did what both said they wanted to do in a shorter timespan.
Audi is making their own engine from 2026, the Audi team will be a full works team with their own engine. Porsche wanted to brand RB engines as theirs probably for marketing reasons but Audi will be a full fledged in house engine and chassis project.
First off I must say a great video. I'm new to F1 and I'm wondering, why don't they just build their own engine, like RB, Ferrari or Mercedes? I know it is expensive, but i guess they have the money, after all it's mc laren.
McLaren lost their racing passion under Zack Brown despite him expanding the overall brand. Remember that Dennis got ousted before the Honda partnership was discontinued, now we see if McLaren stuck through the pain it might have paid off.
McLaren aren't good enough for a works engine right now. They need to reach a certain level of consistency before they can claim an engine is holding them back.
So many commentators are labouring the point that they will be at a disadvantage in not being a works team when we have no idea how competitive the new engine suppliers efforts will be. If you're already in a weak place you can take the risk, with a Mercedes engine, a pair of decent young drives, there's no reason to give up a huge stake in the company and pile on the risk.
The Mercedes that McLaren wanted is the weakest engine now. A very strange choice! Granted, not by much, but it loses a lot at the end of the straights compared to Honda, and it is also worse than Renault and Ferrari.
@mrgalaxy396 I would concede the point, if McLaren, through it's automotive group, didn't have engine experience and tooling, but they do. In fact, McLaren could be an engine supplier to other teams, raking in cold, hard cash.
Especially if ReBadging Power Trains falls on it's face when it finds out just how hard it is to maintain a competitive and reliable ICE program by itself.
Zak Brown is being both unimaginative and unrealistic. Do a deal with Porsche, give them a significant stake with a buy back deal after say 5 years based on performance. Otherwise McLaren won't be anything more than a c team in 10 years time. Think about what happened to Williams.
the engine is no longer the issue at mclaren and not really a great way to differentiate yourself based off of performance. most of the engines are about equal with eachother. I think a bigger difference might be made in the electric portion of the system though. I've heard red bulls electric has advantages compared to other teams. I dont think it was a great move to completely deny audi and porsche in a works partnership type deal. both manufacturers have a great deal of experience and can obviously build a high tech and complex racing car ie LMP1
The question isnt particulary "which motors you have" but "are you building it or are you buying it ?" Because it's an advantage to build the entire car yourself
@@vincesalamander5980 i can agree with that. Aston Martin would be the outlier then, at the very least matching the factory team (Merc) that they buy from in performance. This new era might have some quirks like customer teams being able to compete. As long as they have the funds like Aston do at least, money saving Haas could never haha
@@martiezboy It's good that you mention Aston Martin, because look: they have just signed an exclusivity with Honda! So even those who manage to be competitive with an engine bought from an adversary seem to think that this will not allow them to be a top team in the long term. In 2026, we will have 6 teams out of 10 which will have an exclusive partnership. And in an era where infrastructure and engineering gaps are shrinking, this may become a significant advantage. Just today, the 4 teams that have their own engine are in the top 5 places.
Toyota need to relocate to England for this to work. They failed when they tried their hand at f1 with a large reason for that being their location and the lag time in communications
Is it still worth being a works team??? Apart from the succes of Redbull with Renault and Honda and Mercedes the others didn't work in the last 20 yrs!
Are we heading to a place where there is no such thing as an engine supplier? Where every team has is own engine developed in house or in collaboration with an auto maker or tuning house like Cosworth?
Mclaren should start building their own engines as they do for the road cars, they have the expertise, resources and brand necessity in doing so, all they need is to put a viable budget in place. Visually, Mclaren livery needs to change, I think reverting back to their black and white West Days Livery would be a better option, as they may even go into their legendary Marlboro livery and replace the red sections of that livery with Papaya, but then that M shape would violate the no tobacco advertising law applied in F1. Whatever they do, I think they need a serious rethink on that Papaya Livery and if they decide to stick to it (makes valid brand sense in doing so) then they need to apply it more intelligently.
@@henrywilliams4170 you mean chrome and rocket red of Vodafone livery? Well they can go chrome and black as they need to weight save and I think when Button and KMag partnered up they had just that and it didn't stand out, I think the black and white of West livery was way better when you consider black now is left bare to save weight.
@@henrywilliams4170 "I think reverting back to the silver and red Vodafone livery is the best." But they are not sponsored by Mercedes or Vodafone, why the heck would they do that for?!?!?! Their main sponsors now are British American Tobacco (Vuse) and Google.
McLaren really screwed up not taking Porsche, they have great expertise and could most definitely produce a good engine, for redbull, their demands were to harsh and rightfully so, but for Mclaren, they should of made that compromise knowing they have won 1 race in a decade
Looking at the big picture Aston Martin has only been successful for half a season so far ( and yet to win a race ) lets hope they don't get ahead of themselves because F1 is a tough business with a history of far more successful teams dropping down the leader board after winning championships.
they will be midfielder (3rd to 5th) if Mercedes is a top team like 2014-2021, or they will be at the back of the grid (7th-10th like now) if Mercedes engine is nothing special and therefore Mercedes is in the midfield. The only way they would win a championship would be outperforming Mercedes in terms of aero, which is, as last 10 years showed, very unlikely.
I don't think its as bigger deal having an engine deal. Its better having a good customer engine than a bad works engine. McLaren's problems are not in the engine. Aston Martin are wasting Mclaren this year with the same engine. McLaren are trading on past glories and those days are over. They are a midfield outfit now and I cannot see an eventuality where they overpower the big three.
Think we are getting way ahead of ourselves here. Mclaren could yet make a change. And mclaren could still win with the merc engine behind them. I dont go along with this idea of customer teams not being able to fight for championships.
Aston’s success (with Merc) and Red Bulls success (with Honda) have really underlined the consistent bad decision making at McLaren
RedBulls secret weapon is Adrian Newey Lol he’s an aerodynamic genius that’s been around for over a decade, producing some of the best cars the world has ever seen. Keep in mind Adrian has 13 world championships with Williams, McLaren and RedBull 😂
Also how bad Ferrari are
THANK ZAK BROWN
@@murphychris9811 Zak Brown has arguably saved them though. They were in such a bad shape pre Brown.
@@nationharris you cannot be serious 😂😂😂, Fat Brown has ran them into the ground, sold all the assets and completely ruined the team.
Its ashame there isn't another engine manufacturer to supply Mclaren and Williams. I would love to see them both winning races again.
Blame the FIA and fans
@@President-JonSnow.Malkowich apathy/delusion
It is a shame that Cosworth could not attract a customer base, they were well-placed a few years back to be an independent engine supplier, but the teams chose to go with the established manufacturers.
williams and mclaren lack of success isn’t due to engine suppliers, that is abundantly clear
McLaren Powered by BMW and Toyota 👍🔥
I still think that it is vital for McLaren to remain independent even if it will hinder their performance in the short term. Also I think the VW group manufactures would want far more control than people think. They would not spend hundreds of millions to create an engine to supply Mclaren who is a competing sports car manufacturer
They could do the engine supply of the McLaren road cars as well... Lamborghini and McLaren aren't really sold to the same people. With McLaren they'd have more to offer...
I think we’ll be talking about McLaren missing the Audi deal the same way we talked about Williams losing BMW
Do you really think such a historic team like McLaren gonna sell its majority shares to another manufacturers who will have complete control over things....the livery the drivers huh
That still turned out for the best for Williams, as much as it hurt Williams in the short term, when BMW left they nearly burned Sauber to the ground. I doubt the British government would have stepped into save Williams the way the Swiss gave Peter Sauber millions to keep the team running.
@@mclarenm1 the deal I heard was 25%. But even if it was 50% of the team, 50% of a title contender is worth more than 100% of a backmarker, and I think that’s the path McLaren is on without a works deal
@@MinisterManDanNah, I really don't think so. McLaren and Audi are also competitors when it comes to sports cars.
@@ab8jeh Pooling resources doesn't seem that foolish, But I agree with you in the sense that this might hurt the branding of McLaren
If McLaren think they’ll be fine without a works engine I worry for them
2026 will be a clownshow, every team and their dog have a engine specific to them.
Tbf Red Bull did great with renault in the early 2010s, Aston Martin is currently out performing Merc, Mclaren were able to beat renault in 2020. And thats just from the modern era of F1.
Yes they will have harder time, and as a mclaren fan I was really disappointed to see that we wouldn't be becoming a full works teams. But just look at ferrari, they are a full works team but also have a lot of t kcorporate interference. With their current car, if they had a works engine they wouldn't sky rocket to the top of the championship but the corporate interference might just keep them at the back
@Dani Walmsley RB were operating as a works team with Renault in the V8 era, just like McLaren were with Mercedes
I’m worried that you’re only starting to worry about them now, I’ve been worried since the moment Fat Brown took over and began his clown show…
Is cosworth available?
The only consideration not being discussed, who will GM side with if the Andretti bid fails.
Cause it’s not that much of an option. GM said themselves that they were in talks with a current Manufacturer (seems to be Renault) and while they would take care of the engines and eventually maybe (yes I wrote that on purpose) make an engine themselves some years down the line, until then wouldn’t be a real works engine just another customer engine rebadged for GM.
It’s also the same risk as with Audi and Porsche if they did their own engine , it being new and therefore likely to be a bit behind with the lack of crucial Data from past seasons.
It would be an interesting Cooperation but it would also take years for it to prosper if at all and would consume way more money.
@@Eeraz Yep this exactly. GM isn't going to pour money into an ICE program, especially a V-6 one, maybe if they still ran V-8s (which is what I thought they should do for 2026, NA V-8 running efuel or biofuel with hybrid drive, bring back the noise!). GM is spending a lot of money on electrification though, so maybe a Cosworth ICE with a GM hybrid drive. The new hybrid Corvette is supposed to be, well, let's just say not slow, and it took Toyota 8 years to catch up to the tech and performance numbers of the Volt; so GM must be doing something right in the hybrid department. This arrangement could also have Cosworth make the ICE portion of GM sports cars and McLaren super/hyper cars.
@@anydaynow01 while interesting to think of, 3 Party’s in separate locations working on 1 PU and Aero package Is gonna be way to slow for the competition that can change stuff at hand. Plus I believe the costs would be way to high to run such a task with the steadily lowered Cost Cap. In the old days where they could throw money at will, maybe. Iam not against the idea in general but realistically I don’t see it working.
Convinced your assessments are correct. A pity since their Indy Car project is competitive, but that’s apples and oranges.
@@ronaldkoontz6875 it even sadder considering next to Ferrari they are the oldest Team. 60 Years and they missed going with the times much like Williams did though with more Financial backing. I hope I get proven wrong and the new Facilities give them a huge boost but I don’t see them Challenging for Championships anywhere in the near future.
Mclaren goofy ahh racing team. Been trapped in the midfield since 2013 💀💀
Even Williams was good for two years in the hybrid era
@@brokeafengineerwannabe2071and the crazy part is that Mclaren had Mercedes engines in 2014 so they really fucked up their car design.
@@brokeafengineerwannabe2071 McLaren had 2021-20 and well kinda 2019. So 3 decent seasons.
@@arg_9584 4-5th seems to be about the kinda team McLaren is these days. Honestly, same with Alpine. We'll see in a few years whether or not they're really about changing that but for right now, that's it. Hell is it even, now that there are "4" top teams (or 3 upper midfield teams), that might be 5-6 now. 6 for McLaren.
They made many mistakes and they deserve this outcome
Zak Brown better get 2026 right or he needs to be outted 🤷
He needs to be ousted now!
McLaren are sliding into irrelevance and will soon be a Williams
They've already been there, done that. I don't want to see it again though
Literally 2016
It is just very difficult to win race as a customer these days. If you're the top priority like Red Bull with Honda, thats one thing, but buying from Merc or Ferrari and having to use there gearbox, rear suspension, and cooling parts makes it very hard to ever be faster than the Merc or Ferrari. And from what I understand the customer teams get dinged harder from a cost cap perspective than the works teams when it come to manufacturing vs buying those parts.
Maybe with Aston leaving Merc, that will help McLaren but I don't know how. The engines are built to such exact specs these days that they just dont make bad engines any and even if Merc cherry picks the best dyno'ing engines it's not going to be a very noticaable advantage.
I still don't understand why Mclaren haven't produced their own engines. I know it's a huge investment, but surely it would benefit their road car division also. As they currently outsource that production too.
They don't sell enough cars to do that and the number of complaints about the reliability and build quality of McLarens "cheaper" cars are astounding. Especially with Lamborghini competing in the same price range with a reputation for quality, reliability and very easy to find parts and repair.
Mclaren's car engines actually come from the Nissan R390 GT1 which was developed by TWR.
Making an F1 engine is not easy and takes decades to master. Mclaren will be left in the cold either they become a full works team or if not try to develop their own engine if they want to continue their independance.
I dont see any other option for Mclaren. Mclaren and Williams are in the deep I dont see them getting out unless things change from top to bottom.
Ferrari may be doing crap at least their futures are secured not to mention even with the budget caps it allowed them outsource their stuff to other racing programs like the GT3, Ferrari Challenge and WEC soon hopefully they will make the 499P join IMSA with Risi Competizone.
MONEY
I still imagine what will happen if Ron Dennis not force Honda to make engine in one year and must fit its concept car,maybe we will see another McLaren & Honda domination again
Honda got loads of experience and testing data because of what Ron Dennis did. He's also not the one who broke up relationships with Honda. Alonso and Zak Brown did.
@@paperplane-db8qf Folks forget Ron got the boot also when he tried to set the team on the correct path, kind of like what happened with Prost at Renault and Brawn at Mercedes. The wrong toes were stepped on and feelings got bruised so the folks with the cash wanted them gone, one of the reasons I hate Toto so much. As much of a punk Horner is, at least he rarely ever made Newey feel unwelcome, he knows what's keeping that team alive.
@@anydaynow01 What according to you happened at Renault and Mercedes?
McLaren’s fatal mistake was blowing up their partnership with Honda, which ended up in them literally going bankrupt. Honda was giving them a free engine AND $50,000,000 a year on top of that (that’s unheard of). Had they shown loyalty Honda would have paid them back with at least 10+ years of loyalty.
Mclaren's current status looks similar to Williams' before being sold
Far, far cry from Williams. What are you on about?
@@alimanski7941 not far far...
Once upon a time great team, but now Mclaren now will be a customer of an engine unless they find an engine supplier other than those in the grid, Audi and Honda.
Before being sold, Williams did not permit taking control of BMW. It wanted to be independent, but failed.
Bad management
No light at the end of the tunnel
@@birandkoray And it's not like their road car business is faring much better. At least Ferrari is killing it with its tin tops and Le Mans victory car (not a Ferrari fan just facts). They and Alpine have a lot in common, they missed catching the talent from the cost cap brain drain from Mercedes and Red Bull. In truth they need to team up with Cosworth for engines with heart for their road cars and a works F1 program where they don't badge swap the engine and give Cosworth the credit. If they don't play the blame game like they did with Honda and Renault and actually worked with Cosworth great things will come out of it eventually. Just look at how they came through with the T.50 engine for GMA.
Clearly hasn't watched the seasons up to 2020 bruh
Honestly I feel like McLaren is a big enough brand/team to be able to do their own engine. It's honestly somewhat surprising to me that they haven't pursued it yet, especially if there are seperate cost cap regulations for works teams (extra head room for the engine and its developement) and customer teams
Too big of an investment, they just got done spending updating their existing facilities and they don't have any prior experience with building hybrid powertrains. It would be a recipe for disaster.
@@mrgalaxy396 Yep, and I don't think they even make the engine for their road cars. Been saying this since they fell out with Mercedes the first time in that they need to work with someone like Cosworth, and buy a sister team like Williams or Haas to double down on the budget for R&D especially with the cost cap these days.
They may be big enough but as recently as 2020 McLaren sold off their own factory as they don't have any capital, they needed the funds just to run the race team as is, let alone start an engine project...
They aren't. They have the amount of money of Renault in Enstone. And recently they had to restructure their whole organization to generate some money mesning they sold and leased back the whole of Woking.
McLaren can't even make the engines for they roadcars (Ricardo) who the hell would they be able to do it for F1?
What's your excuse when an energy drink company is building their own F1 engine.
Only 1 "works" team has won championships in the V6 turbo era and that's Mercedes. McLaren is being held back by the car and not its customer status. Being a works team hasn't helped Alpine or Ferrari. It's not a huge drawback.
This is the first time I’ve heard Honda had to pay Mclaren to build their engine for them. What an awful deal for Honda.
I just don't see Mclaren ever besting the likes of Mercedes or Redbull, now perhaps even Aston Martin. Who knows what will happen once Audi joins the grid too. That being said I'm excited for the 2026 regs, mainly for the weight reduction.
Idk, personnally I think RB will slowly lose it's focus with the death of their owner.
@@ygaudreault nah I don't think so, but they'll lose more staff if they remain dominant and it'll hurt them for the 2026 regs. I imagine they'll still be a top 3 contender though, their team is just well oiled despite technical shake-ups.
@@LouSassol69er Idk, Horner often said a advantage RB had was a clear link to Deitrich. Need money to sign Adrian, call Dietrich. Need money for a factory, call Dietrich. Now, replace Dietrich by a board. In the long run they will lose what made Red bull.
@@ygaudreault Red Bull on their way to be the next Williams and McLaren
@@ygaudreault it will happen, but only when Horner and Newey decide to leave for whatever reason. Usually when you lose such big figures the team just starts to slide into averageness. Especially when they have been there since the beginning of the team and are key people that made it successful.
This is why McLaren will never move forward. They are scared of risks. Formula 1 is a high risk sport. You don’t succeed without risks. Look at aston martin for example.
Being scared of risks is also inherently risky. They’re in the process of learning this lesson.
McLaren is not the only one odd team out, Williams and Haas are there also as independent teams that will use a customer engine. But I see the three ending up fighting for scraps in the near future if they don't get it right.
Williams and Haas are de facto B teams alongside the actual B team in AT of the big three. Hell Williams is currently led by a Mercedes guy. Haas is literally operating out of Maranello. McLaren is stuck in the void between works outfits and actual customers.
@@mrgalaxy396 I don't think McLaren running Renault customer engines is any kind of problem. I don't however, understand McLaren's switch to Mercedes, instead of pursuing a closer relationship with Renault like sharing the same gearbox to cut costs.
I dont think the situation of the team is that bad
They have talented guys (Promodrou, now Rob Marshall), they have problem with infrastructures but they know it and they work on it.
My only fear is that the constructor stop to exist because of lack of money.
Prodromou? Naah, he got his change and failed.
McLaren looked like the team on the rise a few years ago now they’re in a slump again and if they’re not careful they could lose Norris
They weren't on the rise again. They luckily got Pat Fry in who they needed after Matt Morris resigned because McLaren had announced James Key for the next season. Morris and Key have a negative history. So Pat Fry wasn't planned but he designed a pretty good chassis and James Key updated that for 2020 and 2021. Then in 2022 he needed to design a car himself from scratch and he couldn't do it.
McLaren are doing a lot of things right to correct the path the Seidl-Key partnership cost them with the new regulations & I think Zak Brown has done a fantastic job overall at McLaren whilst getting a lot of the blame for technical issues that he isn't responsible for BUT his insistence that a customer team can win the championship is one of the few red flags that he is showing.
mclaren used to be a top 3 team for over 20 years while ron dnnis ran it and he ran it good and it worked NOW zak brown maybe of got some money in there but the team is CRAP they dont win they dont get in the top 10 so what has zak really dune to this team other then break it
@@murphychris9811 Ron left in 16 and 17 when McLaren were more dog than even in recent years, so you can't colour him in glory either. Zak has been taking L's but acting like he took over a winning team is silly.
They should've gone with Honda, because atleast you're not a customer team with Honda given Honda is not a f1 team.
@@murphychris9811 because of Ron Dennis Mclaren is in this hole!
When he was outsed Mclaren was an empty car,with no sponsors and even sponsors that were on the car from 30 yrs ago like Boss,Tag Heur,were gone not to mention the poor infrastructure,so please spare me with the Ron the Midas agenda!!!
@murphychris9811 don't make it sound like Ron Dennis didn't take Ls, Mclaren's downfall alr started when Ron Dennis was around, leading to him being replaced. Frank Williams is oso responsible for Williams being crap
There's lots of irony here. Both Audi and Porsche would have wanted to clean house at McLaren, without that I doubt McLaren is actully capable of designing a title winning car. The biggest irony of course will be if Audi having recently hired James Key as technical director beats McLaren. While Key took the fall he may well not have been the problem and Andreas Seidl and Audi certainly don't think he was.
Fire Zak
It’s increasingly looking like being a works team will be a necessity to being competitive in the future
I can see them partnering with Chevy due to Indy if Andretti Cadillac gets the go ahead since GM has expressed interest in building engines so as not to stay Renault customers too long. I see the decision to stay Mercedes customers as the best option they had and honestly would not have sold out to Audi or Porsche if i were them, they wanted far too much for too many unknowns in return
I had the same opinion.
Makes sense seeing as how GM is really going into motorsports atm
Exactly. Would be a shrewd move at the cost of possibly alienating a few of McLaren’s existing semi-works motorsport teams that compete against McLaren. Would really be a great move if it included a significant McLaren-Chevrolet collab for both NASCAR & McLaren-Cadillac for FIA WEC/IMSA.
But I don’t think GM was ready to build a new engine for f1 I think they wanted to rebrand the Renault engine as a Cadillac. So it wouldn’t be a manufacturer deal either. And I’m not sure GM is ready to spend all the money required to build a f1 engine themselves.
@@TheLeewi98 you underestimate how big GM is then. If Andretti enters as a McLaren type partner, as a test mule for the GM engine it could be very successful. I do see GM entering at some point.
Could you imagine being Zak Brown, trashing Redbull as cheaters because of the cost cap then going to their place looking for an engine.
Because all he cares about is money. Zak doesn't care about anything else. He's a joke
@@darbstre2900 F1 is a business first and foremost, and if you think otherwise I feel sorry for you.
An insolvent team can't race.
@@SuperfluousIndividual You're dumb if you're trying to make that point with a straight face. Obviously money is important but to sit there and defend the actions of a guy who's never talked about going for above 4th. This is the same guy who tried to put a driver salary cap while remaining on the unlimited list, Zak Brown doesn't have ambitions of putting his team forward he's determined to drag every team down to his level. You can be focused on money while being a racer. Look at Toto or Horner. They show up to every race, they prioritize their teams, they prioritize progress whereas Zak wants to slow everyone down so he can continue living in the past.
@@SuperfluousIndividual I'm sure it's little more than a business for Stroll and Co. too - and look on them. They have no history, no works background, still achieved more in recent years, than this sorry excuse of "historical" team, what is McLaren became... I'm really starting to feel sorry for Lando, for listening for years of McL's bs promises, while sticking with them...
Ohh and let's not forget about the soft drink company which makes such famous automobile giants look like clowns. Is it more than a business for them?
Average youtube commenters
I was thinking - if Cadillac is really that interested into getting in F1, they could partner McLaren (since Andretti is clearly not coming unless one of the teams is up for a sale).
McLaren is a road car company. They don't want to promote competitors over their own products. That's why you don't see any Mercedes stars on the car or suits like it's the case with Williams.
@@KAMiKAZOW There were Honda logos on the McLaren very recently, and there will be Honda logos on the Aston Martin soon. It can hardly be a big deal. Obviously there were Mercedes stars on the McLaren for free in 2010-2012 as part of McLaren's payment to buy out Mercedes' share of McLaren ownership.
@@TassieLorenzo With new ownership structure and management come new priorities. Orange color, involvement in multiple race series, etc. are all to bolster the McLaren brand.
Whether Stroll's personal F1 team will carry the same branding as the Aston Martin road car company that's partially owned by Mercedes Benz AG remains to be seen. Maybe he'll buy the stake Mercedes owns and Honda will provide engines for upcoming Aston Martin road cars. Afaik those details are not public.
It's a false equivalency to state you have to manufacture your own engine or have exclusive rights to one. Mercedes clearly makes an excellent engine and McLaren's issues have nothing to do with lack of power. In fact, they never use the excuse of a poor PU as to why they are performing poorly.
It was my understanding that Porsche wasn't going to be a manufacturer, but use Audi's PU with whatever team that agreed to their terms. Given they are both part of VW, I doubt VW would sign on to two development teams. It is also my understanding that Porsche wanted naming rights as well, like Afla Romero.
BTW, with GM going with the Andretti bid that is one less manufacturer to go with.
McLaren had great success in the past using an engine from another manufacturer. In the days of the Bruce & Denny CanAm show, the McLarens were powered by aluminium big block engines supplied by Chevrolet but cast by the Winters Foundry, in Canton, Ohio. The aluminium big blocks were intended for racing only but some were built for use in the Corvettes and Camaros under a COPO number for high performance 'stock' applications.
Today the 'Chevrolet' Indy engine, 2.2 liter, twin turbocharged V6, is built by Ilmor Engineering, conveniently located in Brixworth, UK. As Andretti has already secured Cadillac support for an entry into F1, perhaps Cadillac would like to get an early start and rebadge an Ilmor 1.6 liter single turbo V6 for Mclaren, or call it a Chevrolet and let Andretti have the Cadillac brand when they finally get a team into F1. Zak is very supportive of greater US participation in F1, as are Liberty. What could be better for Zak and McLaren than a Chevrolet label on their engine cover, or even the Cadillac brand.
1983-1987 also showed the one lap pace of Senna and Lotus whilst McLaren had only 7 poles.
Senna wasn't in formula 1 until 84 and it was with Toleman, He didn't make it to Lotus until 85.
Shame. Interesting why Red Bull didn't sell a majority stake in AlphaTauri - or, the entire team - to Porsche, other than the obvious desire to reduce the number of true competitors in the field. Would love to have seen Toyota return as a works engine partner - ideally with Haas, both with deep roots in American motorsport. Surprising that a Cadillac-Haas partnership never transpired once it became clear that Andretti's efforts to join the field weren't well received. A Williams-Cosworth reunion would have been interesting. Perhaps McLaren is thinking of starting it's own powertrain division (like Red Bull) - or perhaps buying into a company like Cosworth.
Lando isn't long for McLaren. I'd love to see them fighting at the top but it's not looking likely in the near future.
I think he's a shoe in for Alonso when he leaves, either him or LeClerc are going to fight for that seat if Honda/AM gets the 2026 formula right.
Put that 765LT engine in the F1 car and it may win 😅
They're following the footsteps of Williams- a once championship winning team fading into the backfield and will never be able to compete with factory teams. It's sad.
Mclaren has no patience. Since even before Ron Dennis left they've been trying to rebuild. Had they stuck through every one of their deals correctly, they would be a top 3 team. I think it's time Mclaren stops being Mclaren, humble themselves and pour all of their efforts into whatever they have. I know Zack can make it happen but even he needs to give it time to work. Unfortunately Lando cannot wait. Aston is a good example of a calculated return to form by putting the correct people and deals in place to be winners in the future. A bit of luck doesn't hurt but its about time they've had that success being traditionally a giant slayer with Force India and then Racing Point. Lawrence Stroll has vision and patience that I'm not sure Zack can match.
Winning as a customer team? So many comments being posted saying it can't be done. Why not? F1 is incredibly dependant on aerodynamics and McLaren appears to be making all the correct investments in this area.
Because a customer team winning the championship barely happens. U don't have to make ur own engine, but the supplier definitely need to has your team as its priority number 1. And by a customer team winning the championship, im struggling to rmb anyone who won wcc as a customer team from the late 1990s to now
2026 engine rules are coming up so it also is a new opportunity for engine suppliers, most likely to gaps between engines to increase
Apparently they make good moves on this regard every year...... And yet still they go backwards.
@@therealquaid1694 on that regard it's mostly their new inhouse wind tunnel that will be finally build. Using the one from Toyota in cologne after the original one in woking got too small, isn't that optimal. The Toyota one is also very old.
@@javierplays9516 I hear you but just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean it can't happen. We will never know for certain but Red Bull may have won more championships had Renault produced an engine as good as the Merc between 2014-2020. I think it's fair to say McLaren's issues are not with its power unit.
What about the other engine company from America ( Cadillac ), I thought they were entered into the fixture!
I really don't see it as an impossibility to get a customer deal to be competitive. The rules stipulate the same spec engine must be available to all teams and there are development freezes. It mostly depends on how similar your vehicle architecture aligns with the works team and all the teams are heavily converging on the same design.
means mclaren is building a car round the engine not the engine round the car so design will allways be slightly comprimised
McLaren-Cadillac who’s in for $5?
The only a customer team can be competitive is to copy the team supplying the engine outright because they build the engine around their car while customers have to make the var around the engine
That's what Racing point did in 2020 and you could see how well they did.
"McLaren to sell part of the team, which it wasn't willing to entertain." They don't have any more to sell 🤐
What about GM though? Mclaren has a good collaboration with Chevrolet as engine supplier in IndyCar. I could see that happening, depending on the Andretti interest as well. Either way, I have a feeling that someone between Alpha Tauri, Haas and Williams won't be on the grid in 2026. It's quite a lot of time until then and many things could change.
McLaren buying Haas and giving it to Andretti to run as a sister team, then both teams run Cosworth ICE / GM (Cadillac) hybrid PUs. It will take them a couple of years to catch up like it did for Honda but that's a match that could very well work out in the long run, if they get started on it like yesterday!
@@anydaynow01 Mclaren does not have money. They may be more stable now due to the loans they got from Bahrain, but these loans have to be payed back. That's the reason they "collaborate" with so many sponsors today.
When has GM ever shown they can build an F1 engine? I mean, I'm sure, especially with these new regulations, that they could. But they were never interested in F1 and in spending this amount of money. AT and Williams will be on the grid. They have proper backing, and Williams could also be bought. Haas would've left already if he wanted to so they will still be here. And they are also running a very cheap organization since their development is based on everything they can buy from Ferrari within the regulations.
How about start making your own engines?
I'm going Aston Martin Honda for the win in 2026!!! Let's goooo!
The video seems to have missed out on the fact McLaren as a Renault customer did beat the Renault works team in both 2019 and 2020 on merit. If McLaren before and now Aston Martin can in some capacity beat their works counterparts, what's stopping other customer teams from doing what seems like the impossible at the top step?
There have been customer teams before who have somehow nailed the technical rules better than their works counterparts. If McLaren can somehow pull it off then who knows maybe the works engine supplier comes to them instead.
You very well could be right here. But let's not forget about something, it's McLaren who we talk about. They are failing for how many years now? 2 decades?
Is there any employee remained there, who saw success with their own eyes back in late '90 early '00?
@@Edua1111 fair point, given 2022 should've been the turning point favoring McLaren as they were competing against Ferrari for best of the rest in 2021. We would've had a 4 way tussle or at least 3 way last year but McLaren suddenly recessed.
Its not the end of the season yet, merc could still beat aston
It makes no sense why McLaren went from Renault to Mercedes. Especially now that Renault is probably a little bit more powerful than the Mercedes.
@@TassieLorenzo mercedes were the best team back then, it makes perfect sense
I'm incredibly amazed by the capacity Zak Brown has to stay employed after the constant bad decision and poor performance the team has under his lead.
"The last time this happened was when Red Bull was the de facto Renault works team" so how does this count? They were the works team like they were in 2021 for Honda, or.....?
My guesses for the final engine deals (AlphaTauri not included as it'll probably be a RB-Ford customer):
McLaren - Mercedes customer
Alfa Romeo Haas - Ferrari customer
Williams - Alpine customer
Well said
What is stopping McLaren from developing their own engine? Is it just money? Cause they develop them for their consumer cars so it seems like they at least have the capability tech wise.
Mclaren was the defacto Mercedes factory team from 97-2009. Where they were championship practically every single year, Then Mercedes went to be a factory team and Mclaren really went downhill since 2013.
Interesting to think that this year, there was little to no talk about uncompetitive engines on the grid. Maybe RBP has the edge, but Alpha Tauri doesn't show it, otherwise all engines seem to be competitive. Maybe Alpine is a bit further down, but who knows, and they're for sur not far off.
great video, but i don’t understand how RB counts as a works team in 2021-22? is it purely based on how close the working relationship was with honda? every customer team has engine supplier engineers on hand for assistance and feedback so it seems like a blurry line to draw a distinction
I’ve given up on McLaren. Was rooting for them in 19 and 20 after signs of life but they just don’t have a clue what they’re doing and full of excuses. Shame cause the drivers are great. And the livery sucks
I was a fan since Jenson was driving for them and was really excited for Norris but now I just feel sorry for Norris
I’d like to see the FIA change/tighten the rule to say that each manufacturer can only have one other customer, forcing either Mclaren or Williams to jump to either Audi or Honda.
Let's wait and see how the new RB Powertrains motor goes in 2026. But Honda back with McLaren would have been ideal I think. Be interesting to see how the Aston/Honda partnership works out over the next decade between their respective management teams.
McLaren. More like Williams
It's the cost of trying to stay independent
It’s a Shame mclaren couldn’t lock in a deal with Honda to be a true works team. But seeing how Aston martins performing with a supplier engine, I’m glad Aston and Honda are tying up. Now they’ll need to remove stroll.
The PU isn't the issue at McLaren, so signing on with an engine manufacturer wouldn't change much. It is investing heavily in infrastructure and technical direction for the future.
Porsche came in negotiations with unreal expectations.
Imagine giving up 75% of the company to Audi, only to have Audi's engine completely flop? I would argue that's riskier than the position McLaren is taking to just stick with Mercedes. The Merc engines have always been consistent, powerful, and reliable. And Aston is proving this year that you can build a podium winning car while being a customer team. It may seem weird on the surface, but I actually agree with their decisions to turn down Audi and Porsche. They're better off sticking with what they have while waiting to see if they can get a works engine deal later on that doesn't cost them the majority of the company. That's my two cents at least.
Zak brown wants to drag every team down to his level before investing in anything to push the team forward. Stop supporting them and let Zak suffer. This guy was the main advocate for the driver salary cap all while he would remain on the unlimited list. What a joke.
Please make a same video about Williams too
In this ground force era, being a works team is crucial to success. I just can’t see a customer team winning a championship anytime soon. McLaren still feel as far away from success as they have done over recent years for this very reason in my eyes.
McLaren waiting and seeing which engine is best could work, there’s no guaranteed success for any of them. But it’s not a good look to be one of the 4 without when the other 3 are the small teams
McLaren is soo highly overrated...it's simple as that... Aston Martin success this season with a coustomer engine proves this
It would be nice to see GM/Cadillac join in formula 1
Im convinced both Alpine and McLaren will never achieve wdcs with their current structure. Aston did what both said they wanted to do in a shorter timespan.
Why doesn't Audi just make their own engine? If an energy drink company can set up shop, why cant an auto maker do it???
Audi is making their own engine from 2026, the Audi team will be a full works team with their own engine. Porsche wanted to brand RB engines as theirs probably for marketing reasons but Audi will be a full fledged in house engine and chassis project.
zak brown is a disaster for mclaren😡😡😡
Why is nobody mentioning andretti-cadillac anymore?
Thats a good question
Cadillac would not be building the engine just badging it (like Ford will do with the RBPT engine)
First off I must say a great video. I'm new to F1 and I'm wondering, why don't they just build their own engine, like RB, Ferrari or Mercedes? I know it is expensive, but i guess they have the money, after all it's mc laren.
Polltics and money
McLaren lost their racing passion under Zack Brown despite him expanding the overall brand. Remember that Dennis got ousted before the Honda partnership was discontinued, now we see if McLaren stuck through the pain it might have paid off.
McLaren aren't good enough for a works engine right now. They need to reach a certain level of consistency before they can claim an engine is holding them back.
So many commentators are labouring the point that they will be at a disadvantage in not being a works team when we have no idea how competitive the new engine suppliers efforts will be. If you're already in a weak place you can take the risk, with a Mercedes engine, a pair of decent young drives, there's no reason to give up a huge stake in the company and pile on the risk.
The Mercedes that McLaren wanted is the weakest engine now. A very strange choice! Granted, not by much, but it loses a lot at the end of the straights compared to Honda, and it is also worse than Renault and Ferrari.
McLaren needs a competitive team principal/boss like Horner or Wolff. A competitive boss like them could pivot McLaren back to its former glory.
Such a shame. McLaren are only interested in profit and putting as many sponsors as possible on that car.
What is the reason McLaren doesn't manufacture its own engine, even in partnership with another concern?
Too expensive.
@mrgalaxy396 I would concede the point, if McLaren, through it's automotive group, didn't have engine experience and tooling, but they do. In fact, McLaren could be an engine supplier to other teams, raking in cold, hard cash.
ok now talk about how haas and william’s doomed future
McLaren is not looking like a title contender for a long time. Aston looks to be the next title dynasty.
Especially if ReBadging Power Trains falls on it's face when it finds out just how hard it is to maintain a competitive and reliable ICE program by itself.
If Porche were to buy Haas , I think they could make a reasonable team if they could help fund a solid contract to attract a new driver contract.
At what stage do you fire Zak Brown and bring in someone else.
Zak Brown is being both unimaginative and unrealistic. Do a deal with Porsche, give them a significant stake with a buy back deal after say 5 years based on performance. Otherwise McLaren won't be anything more than a c team in 10 years time. Think about what happened to Williams.
the engine is no longer the issue at mclaren and not really a great way to differentiate yourself based off of performance. most of the engines are about equal with eachother. I think a bigger difference might be made in the electric portion of the system though. I've heard red bulls electric has advantages compared to other teams. I dont think it was a great move to completely deny audi and porsche in a works partnership type deal. both manufacturers have a great deal of experience and can obviously build a high tech and complex racing car ie LMP1
The question isnt particulary "which motors you have" but "are you building it or are you buying it ?"
Because it's an advantage to build the entire car yourself
Yep I've heard this too. Apparently Honda did some hard work getting Red Bull an advantage in electrical deployment and it shows.
@@vincesalamander5980 i can agree with that. Aston Martin would be the outlier then, at the very least matching the factory team (Merc) that they buy from in performance. This new era might have some quirks like customer teams being able to compete. As long as they have the funds like Aston do at least, money saving Haas could never haha
@@martiezboy It's good that you mention Aston Martin, because look: they have just signed an exclusivity with Honda! So even those who manage to be competitive with an engine bought from an adversary seem to think that this will not allow them to be a top team in the long term. In 2026, we will have 6 teams out of 10 which will have an exclusive partnership. And in an era where infrastructure and engineering gaps are shrinking, this may become a significant advantage. Just today, the 4 teams that have their own engine are in the top 5 places.
Imagine if McLaren builds on it's partnership with Toyota GR (McLaren uses their wind-tunnels) and brings back Toyota as an engine manufacturer
I don't think Toyota is willing to pull out from WEC atm
Toyota need to relocate to England for this to work. They failed when they tried their hand at f1 with a large reason for that being their location and the lag time in communications
Is it still worth being a works team???
Apart from the succes of Redbull with Renault and Honda and Mercedes the others didn't work in the last 20 yrs!
2009 brawn gp was as far as i known not a works team. the rest of the wins in the last 14 years have been works teams
Totally agree until McLaren builds a better car they are best off staying with Merc.
McLaren might want to start up their own engine build and find a customer or two lined up for 2026
Are we heading to a place where there is no such thing as an engine supplier? Where every team has is own engine developed in house or in collaboration with an auto maker or tuning house like Cosworth?
What happen with andretti?
Scott, you sound sick. Get well soon, and have a great midsommar!
F1 maybe never had the German trio of BMW, Mercedes and Audi together in any form i.e., either as a team or engine manufacturers...
Mclaren should start building their own engines as they do for the road cars, they have the expertise, resources and brand necessity in doing so, all they need is to put a viable budget in place.
Visually, Mclaren livery needs to change, I think reverting back to their black and white West Days Livery would be a better option, as they may even go into their legendary Marlboro livery and replace the red sections of that livery with Papaya, but then that M shape would violate the no tobacco advertising law applied in F1. Whatever they do, I think they need a serious rethink on that Papaya Livery and if they decide to stick to it (makes valid brand sense in doing so) then they need to apply it more intelligently.
I think reverting back to the silver and red Vodafone livery is the best.
@@henrywilliams4170 you mean chrome and rocket red of Vodafone livery? Well they can go chrome and black as they need to weight save and I think when Button and KMag partnered up they had just that and it didn't stand out, I think the black and white of West livery was way better when you consider black now is left bare to save weight.
McLaren road car engines are built by Ricardo.
@@henrywilliams4170 "I think reverting back to the silver and red Vodafone livery is the best." But they are not sponsored by Mercedes or Vodafone, why the heck would they do that for?!?!?! Their main sponsors now are British American Tobacco (Vuse) and Google.
@@TassieLorenzo oh I didn't know that, but it is built under Mclaren's name, so they should explore this possibility.
McLaren really screwed up not taking Porsche, they have great expertise and could most definitely produce a good engine, for redbull, their demands were to harsh and rightfully so, but for Mclaren, they should of made that compromise knowing they have won 1 race in a decade
Looking at the big picture Aston Martin has only been successful for half a season so far ( and yet to win a race ) lets hope they don't get ahead of themselves because F1 is a tough business with a history of far more successful teams dropping down the leader board after winning championships.
they will be midfielder (3rd to 5th) if Mercedes is a top team like 2014-2021, or they will be at the back of the grid (7th-10th like now) if Mercedes engine is nothing special and therefore Mercedes is in the midfield. The only way they would win a championship would be outperforming Mercedes in terms of aero, which is, as last 10 years showed, very unlikely.
I don't think its as bigger deal having an engine deal. Its better having a good customer engine than a bad works engine.
McLaren's problems are not in the engine. Aston Martin are wasting Mclaren this year with the same engine.
McLaren are trading on past glories and those days are over. They are a midfield outfit now and I cannot see an eventuality where they overpower the big three.
Think we are getting way ahead of ourselves here. Mclaren could yet make a change. And mclaren could still win with the merc engine behind them. I dont go along with this idea of customer teams not being able to fight for championships.
If Honda was willing to reunite with Frednando they would have gone back with McLaren.