Alright, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Alfred translates "You are el rata alada" from a cypher, there is no error in his use of "el." In the movie, Alfred comments that the Riddler's Spanish isn't very good, attributing the error to him. Batman was aware of the broken Spanish, it wasn't news to him when the penguin told him, that just made it click in his mind. You are el = URL
I just got the whole URL thing from your comment, and now I'm not sure if I think it's clever or sooooooo silly. Seems more like a very dumb joke. I would have saved it for the Joker movie.
I THINK.... It's LA Ratta. Masculine feminine in Spanish. RattA is feminine so you'd used LA not EL. So by using the wrong one it highlights it and moves your attention. you are El rata... El is wrong.. he hasn't been wrong before... so why El? ... you are El? URL ..... see?
Haven't seen it, and I'm a bit confused about this whole thing, but isn't it common practice to put ciphers through translators to look for hidden meanings? Seems like a weird thing to mess up
The only moment I found funny was when Riddler at the end pulls a full on Gabbie Hanna and says “ I am so proud of this community” to his followers. That was hilarious to me
I also love when the Riddler says 'I ordered a Pumpkin Pie,' before his body is slammed onto the table by a cop. Something about that delivery really got me laughing.
Yeah, the way he silently reassures her before she’s carried off made me smile. I always really like seeing Batman comfort people; it hits harder coming from him than a lot of other heroes precisely because he has such a reserved demeanor.
And every Snyderling immediately hated this movie from that point on because this batman is a pussy... but yeah, the point of Batman was always that he was trying to be better than the people he's fighting against
@@unpopularopinions7407 this is honestly the first Live Action Batman/Bruce that I can see comforting a child who just lost his parents in the circus, or holding a little girl’s hand on a swing set as she dies.
FYI, Riddler wasn't wailing in his jail cell. He was singing a really high and pitchy version of Ave Maria. You know, the song that permeated the entire movie to the point that if I never hear it again I can die happy.
As a professional musician who has to play/sing this particular piece at nearly every wedding and funeral, I was already of the mindset that I would die happy if I never had to hear it again, even before hearing Riddler butcher it
4:42:15 I know Jay says a Bat signal would not work. But one month after this EFAP episode came out, the guys at Hacksmith Industries actually made a functioning Bat signal. just a fun fact
As to the crash with penguin, you would be surprised how much a seat belt can do in the event of your car flipping like that. I had an accident like that years ago and I came out completely unscathed
@@unpopularopinions7407 no I get that, there was just some doubt from some of the people in the stream as to how penguin didn’t get hurt. That’s all I’m addressing.
The whole big riddler flood plot at the end felt kinda forced imo. I thought he wanted to go after corrupt people, but in the end he just believes everyone is corrupt even innocent people..... That's what I got from it.
@@rayvonvelez3129 i got from the end that they basically wanted to shot the new mayor and some police officers because riddler thought the election was a fraud and the flooding was there to keep them in that place, even if it felt like a bit too much cause of „splosions“ that part actually felt very comic batman to me and nolanesque as well The only issue i have, it makes the movie a tiny bit too long
Agreed. 100%. And IF they have wanted to have that flooding sequence, they should have set it up better. At least show vans being parked and abandoned by Paul Dano. That way the reveal that he is the Riddler when they unmask him would land better... Instead of just "Redditor Riddler learnt everything off the internet forums and got caught because some witness girl spotted him." It all happens off-screen and so fast. For a movie that took its time with the beginning and first half, I hate how rushed the last half is. It might as well just not be there. I wanted it to end with Batman and Gordon finding and apprehending the Riddler. That's the movie. The end credits is Riddler being in the cell adjacent to Joker. Who says he's impressed with his work. Riddler wants Batman's validation, gets Joker's instead. Good place to end.
What abt batmans arc? What abt the end situation which would affect the sequels and spin offs? Those are major positive points in the movie how can u remove them?
The one scene that stuck out to me was after Batman punched Gordon, the cops chased him for a bit but he wasn’t desperately wanted throughout the rest of the film.
I think its still possible that he was being hunted offscreen until he brought in Falcone. I dont think he has any run ins with the police after leaving the gcpd until he brings in Falcone.
3:59:39 the riddler explains his anger towards bruce. The renewal was a lie, riddler and other orphans are living 30 to a room and dying whilst bruce is living with billions in his tower, and people only seem to care about how tough bruce has had it after the waynes are killed. Then, as we know, Bruce doesn’t really do much in the day with his money or resources, so the Riddler hates him for that.
One of the reasons why I don't believe the movie knows who Bruce Wayne is... I even think the movie is about any character except Bruce Wayne... 20 years of a rotting orphanage and his father's trust fund in the hands of a mobster... and the World's Greatest Detective didn't realize when he started his crusade in Gotham?? ... Riddler is a hero... Bataman is a depresssed playboy with dissociative crisis of reality!! rssrsr
@@PauloSilva-ep9ox I don’t think that’s fair. Falcone had everyone in his pocket, the courts, the police, the mayor, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to keep this from Bruce. After his parents deaths Bruce would have been training to become batman, that was probably a big enough distraction for him to not immediately investigate his dead parents’ trust fund. I think Batman was the best part of this movie. His interactions with Alfred were good, his buddy-relationship with Gordon was good, and his moral core was there, it was also cool to see him show up to crime scenes and see things that detectives didn’t.
@@ericsonofjohn9384 "I don't think that's fair. Falcone ....." But a private fund?? How?? Did Thomas pass him over to city control? If Btaman/Bruce is committed to fighting for Gotham, why not start socially as well and use par excellence in depth that it was the family legacy to Gotham that Bruce always wanted to renew by becoming Batman and avenging his parents? Batman/Bruce has always done this...! "After his parents died Bruce would have been training ....." And then.... how does the World's Greatest Detective miss the reason for a candidate's candidacy for mayor? when he arrived in Gotham and started fighting for her, didn't he realize it? I believe this Bruce/Batman is a situational piece of this movie exclusively, not a trans media entity we know...Remember in Dark Knight: Begins, he plans a coup d'etat against his own table of CEOs lol... he fights like Bruce and as Batman!! "I think Batman was the best part of this movie......" I agree, I didn't like this Batman, but as a character in this movie, Batman, Falcone, Alfred and Penguin are great!! I enjoyed Alfred being a guilty bodyguard raising the child of a fallen battle 'brother'!!
@@PauloSilva-ep9ox I think you’re clearly missing the point of the movie. Riddler was not a hero, but Bruce was definitely not as good of person as previous versions, and that was intentional. The movie is obviously criticizing him for not helping people, thats what his arc is by the end of the movie, when he learns vengeance won’t help the city. But why would he have investigated the renewal at all? He was obsessed with vengeance and believed his father was like a perfect person, and there was no reason to look into the renewal because it had no relevance to anything until Riddler brought it up, and he found out the truth like right after that anyways.
@@jakesimpson3373 Hi...thanks for the words! Come on... So.. I get your point.. I really agree with everything you've said, but as a movie about a certain vision of Batman... and that *if I may* I don't believe it's a coherent representation of Batman ! While within this movie, this "Revenge" character is really blinded by following idealisms and yearnings to which he is actually alienated! Batman is not that, his legacy is one of intelligence and altruism under a methodical and judicious vigilante activity! His investigative skills are guided by the opportunism of the script..he does not perform laboratory analysis, surveillance of suspects waiting for the criminal to attack them, he does not infiltrate the Riddler's virtual "followers" when they are introduced early in the film, he does not investigate or Server IP lol I understand he's a newbie, but he sins in points that are as much a part of the character's mythology as his own name!! Batman has problems with his family's secrets, but even so, he wouldn't let this one in the background pass so shamelessly under his nose. how can a candidate for mayor building his platform on the problem he is, manage to wake up a guy as smart as this Bruce from the movie couldn't see that??? Like.. it was on TV all the time..."Wayne Fund is evil..I'm going to fire him"...I see a lot of flaws not only as a Batman movie, but as the neo-noir movie it purports to be! Is Batman here so blinded by revenge that he can't see what the bad guys are doing? under your nose? A billionaire trained in investigation and ninjutsu who only solves riddles? So what's the point of being a Batman movie? ...I don't want my arguments to be taken as rude, I really appreciate you engaging in this discussion.... as I said... I agree with your points if we take this film as something apart, my disagreement is about being this one Batman movie!
If this is not a joke, the context of what Rags is saying is that what Batman is doing is insanely dangerous and at that moment, somebody should tell him to slack off, Alfred should say this to Bruce. I don't think he is making a statement about the film only that the crash caused by Peguin is itself caused by Batman chasing him. I think.
@@thil2894 it’s dangerous but not enough to warrant Alfred whatsoever. The guy just attempted to kill all 3 of them and you think letting him get away is the better alternative? Catching him and getting info to stop the larger enemy will prevent more deaths than whatever casualties are caused by the chase. Which Batman drived very carefully in mind you.
@@Djhiphop1000000000 Batman abandons Gordon to die to try and catch penguin, when he can catch him later. Penguin is also not an active danger to the general public at this time, save for what Batman causes with the car chase.
@@EmberBright2077 so many dumb points. Abandoned? Batman scared off Penguin and his goons. Whoever is left Gordon can take care of. He can handle himself. Catwoman was also there. Also such a stupid mindset. Batman has limited time, he can’t afford to let him get away, he NEEDS to get to Riddler quick. Because not catching him will lead to more casualties. So just because he’s not causing issues to the public at that time. Letting him get away will let Batman let many more innocents lives at fate than whatever’s are effected by the chase. So yea maybe watch the movie again before making such hilariously dumb points.
When you mentioned it might be more grounded for the bat signal to shine on a building rather than the sky it occurred to me that the tallest building in Gotham is Wayne Tower. That might be too on the nose to have the bat signal shining on Wayne Tower lol.
You'd also need 4 bat signals so that you can see it from all angles, meaning Gordon either has to conscript 3 other people to activate the signal, or he has to drive to each one lol. It also makes it harder to meet up by just waiting at the spotlight.
It's a comic book thing, just have the bat signal be the way it always was and don't question it 🙄 May as well whine about how nobodys shooting Batman in the mouth
@25meip I just thought that one was especially silly because of how dragged out it is and the only thing it adds is an awkward shot of Batman kneeling down to look Penguin in the eyes. I think the fact that you just see his head slowly coming into the frame just makes it really odd.
I think that would be a lot more intimidating from the perspective of a thug who was seeing him for the first time. If that was Batman’s first appearance in the movie, it’d probably do better at pulling off its intended effect
I'm not sure why they left that in. Should've just been the wide shot of him walking, then Penguin freaking out. Then next scene. Watching him stoop down with his head all tilted like we're in a Purge movie was.. an experience.
yeah I was thinking the same Didn't feel like a win at all, but the movie tried to play it out a if Batman won If they had done a "we fall to pick ourselves up" kinda thing, it would have fit so much more
@@spudg8558 the same way riddler was against the rich and fighting for the lower class and then goes on to flood the lower parts of gotham where the poor and homeless lives
@@theeloquentweiner7054 True, I didn't remember until you mentioned it but when I first saw that I thought "wait, this flood isn't touching above the 3rd or 4th story of any of these buildings."
I was originally thinking the riddler goons were parody-ishly extreme. But then I saw the live comments on this video and remembered people do act like that
It is on the nose and it is obviously Hollywood depicting their political enemies as crazy killers, but it's not unbelievable to the point where the movie doesn't work. Yeah I'm pretty sure you can find 30 guys who hate the world enough to do something like that in Gotham City, which is rampant with crime and corruption.
@@CaptainCastle I can see the angle, but like you see in politics, the movie's view of the 4chan types as "downtrodden" "forgotten" white men only goes so far as to patronize them rather than afford them any empathy or understanding. I don't think there's any point at which we're actually supposed to feel bad for the Riddler or his henchmen or sympathize with their motives. So imo the reference is still politically motivated and not an attempt to make the story morally complex. Because they are straight up serial killers lol.
I really didn't remember him having that much damage when he was shirtless and I've looked up photos online since to see it in static detail. From what I can see, I really don't see much, if any, bruising at all. He's just his pale self without much discoloration anywhere. He does have scars here and there that look pretty well-since healed over.
Yeah, the "w. privilege" line Catwoman drops comes out of nowhere and lands like a wet fart. I know it "has" to be in there because Hollywood but I wish they didn't.
I agree it felt out of place, its better to understand the character having that perspective rather than the movie saying its right. Because even the movie goes out of its way to justify Thomas Wayne. Felt like the kind of ignorance real people have or hatred someone whose friend had their passport stolen by a politician and steals from the rich would have. Personally don't have much of an issue with it it just feels weird I don't think its justifying Riddlers hatred for Bruce just for being a rich orphan since that character is insane. Again to me seems like situations you do get from class divides and living in a place like gotham
@@PauloSilva-ep9ox No, it doesn't- it has everything to do with the Waynes being unfathomably rich, not because they're white. It was pointlessly divisive identity politics
@@gingeranagram2467 I understand.... I don't disagree with this point, I still resist the identity subtext (lol), but more like an overanalysis on my part, I think... but the theme of the revolt against financial privilege I agree is the main theme of the antagonisms established in the film !! Despite not liking how stuck Batman is put to him... and the mediocre way Batman makes use of Bruce Wayne's money lol!!!
@@cameronroy2129 It doesn't even make sense for Selina to say that, she's dating one of the most "privileged" straight white men in the city and we don't get any other indication she thinks that way besides that her dad is white and she hates him specifically.
On the subject of falling asleep in the theater. I went with my friends to watch A Good Day to Die Hard, for whatever reasons I skipped sleep the previous night and fell asleep just 5 min into the movie. To this day I haven't seen the movie but for what I've heard about it, it wasn't a great loss.
I fell asleep pretty much straight away when in the cinema watching that Tom Hanks movie where he's stranded on an island. Woke up at the end and some fedex package or summink
I think fundemtally the problem with the movie is that Riddler's actions for the first two thirds of the film have almost nothing thematically to do with the last third. It feels like the Riddler's plan and the film is just building and building to some huge revelation, only to lead to some non-sequitur plan to destroy Gotham and massacre civilians. Riddler's leading Batman by the nose only lead to the revelation that Gotham is corrupt, but we as the audience kind of already knew that.
Wasn't the whole point to destroy the city built on lies ? Pretty sure there's a lengtht explanation of That Basically : it's too rotten to even change at this point, the real change will come when it's razed and rebuilt The first part of the plan was to get to the core of the conspiracy that would destroy the city in spirit before destroying it physically to make sure the previous "regime" can't take over again.
62 morons who the entire point of the story flew right over their heads. Riddler's action every single one of them mesh together with a coherent line of logic. He starts with killing the corrupt one by one, mimicing Batman putting the fear of god in them. Do you understand this part well??? If so I need you sit back and relax because I am about to show you something your sub human intelligence could not have understood on itself in a million years. REMEMBER WHAT THE MAIN MESSAGE OF THE STORY WAS???? REMEMBER WHAT WAS THE MAIN LESSON BATMAN LEARNED? Vengeance is ever consuming. Vengeance is a raging flame that burns the innocent and guilty alike. Vengeance starts as a a giant burst of rage, that after its first flash it starts to fester and grow into a cold irrational psychopathic hatred. Riddler was a look into the future that awaited Bruce, a warning for him, that if he continues on this path of vengeance it will not lead to a pretty place. Riddler started with a vengeance that was understandable, against the corrupt, same as Batman. But Riddler indulging himself in his vengeance caused him to be very quickly lead stray into the biggest depths of depravity and cruelty.
That's one of the issues. Another fundamental problem is that nobody has a clue what drives the Riddler. Ok, he doesn't like lies. But he doesn't mind murder. Interesting priorities, but why?
@@ETBrooD No that I got. He became disgruntled by being in an underfunded orphanage while corruption ate up all the dollars that should have benefited his orphanage. And the very people pocketing the money were also making a fortune selling drugs to the orphans they impoverished in the first place. That's an excellent motive to turn vigilante and fight corruption. But trying to flood Gotham isn't fighting corruption nor is it the actions of a vigilante, it's just plain terrorism. And as far as I can tell, it's terror without a tangible goal.
What? That makes no sense. He is talking about how he is seen from the perspective of the criminals. I'm paraphrasing here but he says as far as the criminals are concerned I’m not a man who hides in the shadows, I am the shadows. He is living in their heads. The criminals have bought into the idea that he’s not just a guy who could be hiding in a shadow somewhere in the city... he’s in all the shadows all at once. That’s why they back away from the shadows.
I don't think it's a coincidence that Bruce Wayne (who happens to be Batman) is involved with the conspiracy, because Thomas and Martha dying was the inciting incident of the conspiracy. The conspiracy and Batman were created by the exact same event, so I think that makes it not coincidental.
Sort of. Thomas was show to be corrupt and wanted power. He set up the charity to buy his way into the mayor's office. So, that's conspiracy 1. After he dies, all the corrupt people see this giant pot of money and they all agree to using it instead of fighting over it. So, that's conspiracy 2. Riddle came along and wanted to expose how dirty both the Wayne's were and all the politicians claiming to be helping the people.
I remember a story about Dick Cheney where he was at some meeting or photo op, and suddenly the secret service guys run up and _carry him_ down several flights of stairs into a safe room. When he finally catches up on what just happened they explain that the Pentagon and the WTC just got bombed and he's to stay in hiding until further notice. Yeah. The police would've stopped her.
I was baffled by how after, apparently, getting shot in the abdomen (where she was clutching at, while Gordon was pulling her to safety), she just casually wades through chest-high water with everyone else as they follow Batman to safety. I was like, "Wait wasn't she just shot?!"
@@mourad505 she was shot in the shoulder and then someone tended to it before the flooding got too bad. Literally pulled a Leia and got enough to make us worry a sec but little enough that they can straightup forget she's still injured by next scene
@@samwallaceart288 nah, she was holding the left side of her belly..... A gut shot is not something that can be brushed off lol. (that's not aimed at you, just saying, in general) ;)
@@NicTheGreek1979 Also doesn’t help sea water going into a wound is very dangerous and since they lack a hospital area it’s possible she dies due to infection if not blood loss
Watched the movie yesterday. Came out of cinema thinking, that the movie would end within the first half an hour if police or batman decided to investigate where the leaked photos were taken from. Even the Falcone would send people to check the location overlooking his joint after press published those.
I wish they would've just had those photos taken from literally anywhere else. Could've been from street level where there'd be nothing to go on to identify the photographer. Could've been from a different apartment to act as a red herring. Anything but the actual apartment of the dude who's trying to expose these people.
01:46:00 - Listening to you discuss him showing up at the front door as a bad tactic for an introduction. It occurred to me that one of the things I noticed about the story structure was that we would see Batman interact with different people also as Bruce Wayne. There's the uniformed cop who doesn't like Batman being at the crime scene but is happy to see Bruce Wayne. And there's the guy at the church when Bruce shows up at the funeral who we see unmasked later after getting the shit kicked out of him by Batman. We see Bruce show up at the front door and ask to see Penguin and he gets greeted by the twins in the same way that Batman did, only once again of course it's a different reaction. While fundamentally I agree that Batman would have to taken a different approach to Penguin, I think the overall structure of showing this duality was an interesting choice & why they did it this way - in addition to giving us another fight scene.
Sure, agreed. I still find it interesting that there are specific scenes showing him interacting with people as Batman and then also as Bruce Wayne. We really don't see that very often I think.
Also the character realizes his first approach was suboptimal because the next time he gets let in as Bruce, the final time he says forget this and just sneaks in.
In regards to the 4:20:00 hot take, I would say in this movie the plot happening is not a coincidence because in the story it was happening before Batman existed, the Riddler donning his Riddler persona probably isn't coincidence either because it plays into that idea Batman created his villains, these people would have been crazy to begin with, but Batman is what inspired them to their gimmicks
The Batman, Dune and Everything Everywhere All At Once were very pleasant surprises. Thought they'd be bad like most movies today but they were all really really good.
Here is a big issue I discovered. If anyone asked “where were these pictures taken from” when looking at the photos of the mayor or others. Riddler would have been found immediately. The photos were taken from his apartment, same place he shot from.
That isn’t an issue? There was nothing there that would’ve lead them to him. That was where he resided but not where he was operating throughout the film. And besides he had it all planned out anyway. This was shown when they went to his apartment there was nothing there but information which couldn’t have possibly be understood until Batman found out more information.
@@mrmxyzptlk8906 except the videos, the diary, the murder weapon, the info under the rug. The photos were taken from his apartment, where he lives. If the second they saw the photos they said “this looks like it was taken from one of these apartments” and went to the apartment, he would have been captured and the rest of the murders would have been avoided and most likely the bombs stopped. Keep in mind the movie takes place over 6 days (if I’m not mistaken) first murder is day 1 they get the photos maybe day 2, that’s 4 days and 3 additional murders stopped, plus the bombs and mayoral shenanigans stopped.
@@NickYoung22 none of this indicates enough information to catch him…. Batman had already analyzed a crime scene of his and it was squeaky clean. He’s always a step ahead. Nothing in that apartment would’ve been enough to stop him. He had to follow the riddles in order to truly stop him.
In that first investigation scene, I thought the cop of the left was tipping his hat at *Batman* at first, and I thought that was going to be a neat detail of the GCPD not all being on the same page with a vigilante consultant. Definitely agree they could've used more apparent dissension amongst the cops in the movie, to make it more believable that Batman is even allowed into the crime scene, able to confront the D.A. and left to "control" that whole situation. Like even just cutting a shot or two into that scene, going back to the cops standing by, where they're asking themselves what Batman thinks he's doing. The chief wants to step in, but Gordon and a few others are sure that will only set off Riddler.
@@rindoubaka1574 I don't know about that. Even if Gordon is Batman's biggest proponent on the force, a cop might have respect for Gordon just because he earned his badge, even if they don't agree with him about Batman.
Anyone else think that the Riddler was working for the upcoming mayor? Both their hatred for corruption, as well as her many appearances, either through billboards or her chat with Bruce at the funeral, had me thinking she had much more to do with the story than she actually did.
I thought the same thing as soon as her opponent was conveniently killed. No way does a totally clean person make it that far in a race for mayor in a city where the entire system is controlled by the mob. Also why would Riddler try to kill her if she really isn't corrupt?
@@iamthewizardwhoknocks2845 that feels like a bit of a stretch. I bet it was more that she was initially gonna be the true villain, but the studio executives wanted Batman to have some cool fight at the end of it and it had to be worked around this desire. I can't prove this, but it would explain why the Riddler's motives seemed confusing.
@@spudg8558 If they were working together, I could see it as a sort of false flag operation, if that's the right term. Like, the Riddler attempts a fake assassination attempt in order to make her seem less suspicious and increase public sympathy for. All it would really need is a slight rewrite of the Riddler in the film, like he hates the corruption within Gothem, and sees her as the best option forward, and will do anything to insure that she wins. The more I think about it, I kinda hate it that they didn't go with this approach. I know it was basically just a theory I made on the spot in the theater, but damn, it would have made the ending so much more satisfying in my opinion.
@@EasyEighty-Eight That's way better than what we got and yeah that's a good word for it lol. I don't think the writers would go for this even if they thought of it because 1. Riddler is supposed to be a caricature of an angry white 4chan user. Having him work with the good guy mayor candidate makes him more sympathetic and if she's actively working with him, that undermines her moral perfection. Two big no-nos given the angle they're pushing with these characters.
I wish mauler would watch under the red hood. It has the batman no kill conversation that he wants to hear. Especially since it's with a person batman failed to save.
Was I the only one that found it hilarious that Riddler's followers appear to be loading their weapons and magazines AFTER already getting in to the stadium?
Also, the weapon choice was a bit odd. At first, literally everyone has scoped, bolt action hunting rifles. These rifles are slow to reload and can't carry many rounds at once, but everyone has them, and they show a big stack of *loose* bullets sitting next to the guys who are proned out. Is the plan to shoot 5 shots, and individually reload them over and over again? Then once batman hops in, everyone has semi/fully automatic weapons and only the guys in the smoke cloud seem to have bolt action rifles again. Weird choices there imo.
@@tannerchaffin9235 I guess the rifles could be because that would be a common hunting weapon that these common crazy men could have easily acquired? Can't really comment on that semi/full automatic part, since I can't remember if they clearly showed which weapon each thug was carrying...
@@CaptainTitforce potentially, but the movie takes place in what is essentially New York city, and I wouldn't think that many New Yorkers own bolt action hunting rifles. If the baddies bought the guns specifically for this event (which the glimpse at Riddler's computer implies since they are asking things like "what caliber"), then they definitely wouldn't pick scoped rifles. You can accurately use iron sights on an AR15 at 100m easily. I believe we see about 8 guys with these rifles all at once, but once batman jumps in and starts getting peppered with bullets, only 1-2 rifles remain and everyone else suddenly has more effective weapons not only for batman, but their original target too. Movies need that "assassination are done with a single shot" thing, but if all 8 guys just opened up with those automatic weapons, the mayor 100% would be dead.
@@tannerchaffin9235 bit late to this, but in the confession vid, theres the chat talking about where to get supplies for the final act, and it very much reads like most of the people there werent familiar with bombs or guns, but they just want to help the riddler. it isnt super easy to see in that section but the semi auto guys are mixed in with the guys with traditional hunting weapons. Most of the guys that show up just got weapons. Its why the guy with the shotgun takes so long to reload.
Okay so Fringy says "btw we forgot to mention Gotham is below sea level, the big scary endgame for Riddler is to blow up the barriers and flood Gotham" and they just move on... but I was bothered by that in the theatre, and I don't know if I just missed the first mention of Gotham being below sea level, or if that really is just information dropped right in the third act.
@@egomania2792 Yeah, would've been nice if that little factoid was mentioned or shown even one other time before it comes into play later. Like how Batman Begins establishes the monorail thing early so it's not just "Oh yeah, Ra's is going to execute his plan using this rail system you never knew existed until now". And in that movie's case, it's even symbolic, because the train is the Wayne family's own contribution to the city, now being used negatively.
Seems like an easy throwaway line too. Have one of the mayoral candidates mention the upkeep of the seawalls being an issue. Would take 2 seconds, and from there you can put in as much worldbuilding as you want
If Selina is Falcone's daughter and he's considered to be one of the rich white men, then she's at least half white. This just makes that one line even more out of place.
Not a fan of the line, but Falcone being Selina's father probably only adds to her hatred of "privileged, white men." It'd be different if she loved her father and considered him to be a important part of who she is. As-is, she literally tries to kill him.
You didn't think this through did you. Not only does she have any benefits of being his daughter, you do know that slave owners had children with slaves right?
@@Nethseaar I think that's a fair point. Either way, we can agree the line was bad and unnecessary. It's probably better that they had it clunkily thrown in instead of trying to clarify it, if they had to include it at all.
@@za-ir5ni I think you ment to type "she didn't have any benefits" Also, who had any benefits from slavery in this day and age aside from a handful of families that managed not to squander their profits from that time?
literaly one of the first things you do in one of batman games is to establish where did the bullet come from based on an angle between where it hit and where it came through the window
I'm sure it must be hard to write a mystery for the "world's greatest detective". But writing these stories is always hard, so it's not really an excuse. You are completely right about the angle thing. If they wanted to take the Batman detective route, they should have shown him taking precautions like this one, to ensure we can't acuse him of being bad at it. It should just be that the Riddler always goes a step beyond to cover up his tracks.
@@denistannenberg you do realize when Batman checked the sniper in that building he got nothing but a message from the Joker. There was no further info he got from that. He just wanted to know WHO it was. Same with Deadshot bullet Here, he KNOWS it was Riddler, there’d be nothing else to gather from it.
Jeeves is from the Jeeves stories by P.G Wodehouse. He's a valet, not a butler, though. A valet (pronounced val-et, not val-ay) serves one person and a butler serves a household. I haven't read the stories, but I do have the DVDs of the TV series Jeeves and Wooster; it stars Stephen Fry as Jeeves and Hugh Laurie as Wooster.
Good to know about the pronunciation of valet. I've been watching Downton Abbey and was confused by the pronunciation of valet. I had only ever heard val-lay, as in a car parker/driver.
@@rSADGE he is… he’s conflating an amazing film for an above average film amongst trash. Amazing films still exist. And this is one of them. It has the acclaim and success to back it up. It has way more acclaim than either of the Burton film. and 2 of the Nolan films. It’s an amazing movie. This guy and yourself are wrong. You have garbage taste.
Bro, this is spot on. People are overhyping this movie like crazy, mainly because of the great visuals and sound. But writing wise, the movie is really average at best.
I could be wrong about this, but I believe there is a line in the film that could at least slightly address the convenient nature of Bruce meeting Selina in his meeting with Penguin. When Selina is talking to Bruce about the club within the club at Iceberg Lounge, she mentions that she sees all the powerful people come in. Therefore, I believe it could be reasonable to infer that she would have seen Batman come in to the club. This may have prompted her to see why Batman was in the club, which would have led her to buy the drops from Penguin while he was talking to Batman. At this point in the film, there is news about Mitchell’s death and she is also aware that Mitchell has some dealings with Annika. She knows at this point that Mitchell has Annika’s passport and therefore, she could be trying to see what information Batman is getting from Penguin as she has a personal stake in the controversy with Mitchell due to Annika’s involvement. It is certainly convenient that Bruce sees Selina at just the right time. This also wouldn’t address the convenience of her wearing the exact boots he needs to see. However, I believe the writing for this meetup is slightly less convenient than it may seem upon further inspection.
@@za-ir5ni It's called anecdotal writing, and it's sometimes referred to as "this happens, and then this happens, and then...". If you're familiar with Mauler's content, he talks about this writing issue in his most recent video, A Critique of Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Part 4. I don't believe Mauler uses the technical term of anecdotal writing, but it's justifiably considered bad writing.
@@matthewcronshaw9331 it isn’t really that crazy of a coincidence, though. Penguin was probably getting drinks and drugs delivered in and out of that room all night, and Selina was a bartender
@@jakesimpson3373 I haven't actually seen the movie, so I have no way of knowing/arguing how convenient it was. I'm just questioning the other person whether they believe plot conveniences are an example of bad writing.
Dude your totally overthinking it.......their dumb for even doing this in the first job........being payed so little for so much risk......thats not hard to understand.
"Is it a Coincidence that Bruce Wayne and Batman is the same person" - Fringy 2022 A quote that would be in a video essay lol.(I know there's more to this, just funny out of context)
I had a similar situation too where a couple teen girl behind us kept giggling at parts that definitely weren’t comedic. I was more so confused rather than annoyed
As someone who was apart of a group of women who openly laughed in the theater during this film, I can tell you that it's a way to defuse tension and communicate disbelief/ridicule to a group without verbal speech. For example, when something occurs in a film that you believe to be so egregiously bad or simply ridiculous, you can scoff or produce a soft laugh to effectively communicate these feelings with others, nonverbally, to the effect of checking the thoughts and feelings of others. If someone agrees with your thoughts or feelings towards this moment, they will respond in kind with either an agreeing laugh or scoff, thus creating a moment of silent communication and group bonding/reassurance. The problem others find in this is how loud this nonverbal communication can become when it is a larger group. Laughter can easily ramp up due to how it can add on to itself. For example, say you and a friend are watching a comedy. The comedian tells a story that produces laughter from both of you, but while laughing at the story, your friend falls out of his chair, causing both you and your friend to laugh louder in response. This reaction is simply inherent to the way this emotional response functions.
Weren't Selina's shoes in the nightclub just part of her work uniform? Thats the impression I got. Doesn't she wear them again in the club later? She's poor so maybe she only has one pair of shoes good enough to wear in the club?
When they mentioned Bruce's mask being made out of magic Bat-leather, I liked to imagine Bruce snatching bats out of the air and sewing them all together into a helmet for him.
@1:26:00 ish. Alfred and the Circus. In Le Carres spy novels, his version of MI6 is called the Circus. It's a hard nod to some of the most prolific spy fiction ever written. Most ppl know The Spy Who Came in From the Cold and Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. I'm guessing. But it a huge coincidence if it isn't
I really want to see EFAP view Adam West's run as the Bright Knight. If not the '66 movie, just the first 2 episodes (which is, of course, a 2 parter) with the villain being the Riddler, mind you.
I reckon he would’ve found another way around it even if she didn’t turn up. But I wouldn’t consider this a flaw in the movie. I don’t know if you do, I’m just making an assumption.
@@Nameless-pt6oj one way would've been bruce using his technology in the batcave and with his detective skills would've gathered some info about falcone's background which would've led him to selina eventually since she was his lost daughter
"If the detective character wasn't observant and found a new lead, this movie would have melted" homie what CinemaSins tier criticism has rotted your brain
Batman not killing is a core element to his character for recent iterations for it can lead to interesting story telling, exposing his humanity, and showing his resolve to never let what happen to him ever happen to anyone. Makes him someone to root for when put on the spot to kill. Even if he is justified to kill, he shouldn't because he believes the action itself would break him since he is somewhat a troubled person. Who knows how far he would go if he would be okay with killing people. He is certainly scared of that. Just watch the animated series and the Under the red hood movie. It delves into that a bit more
The No Kill rule is also often seen as a flaw he has by many characters in universe. It’s not like there saying it’s 100% right, it’s what Bruce “believes” is right. It tracks from a character perspective
@@canaldecasta That's something I was thinking about some time ago. Let's say he breaks some guy's spine and the guy consequently wouldn't be able to feel anything below neck or waist for the rest of his life. The guy then kills himself, because he thinks that living like that is worst than death. Even tho Batman didn't kill the guy directly, his brutality has contributed to the guy's death. Imagine that he beats someone so hard that he needs to be in hospital, but ambulance don't reach there in time and the guy who has....I don't know, a punctured lung or something, dies from the wounds. Sure...Batman didn't want to kill him and he was alive when he left the guy there, but the guy consequently died from the beating. Batman's brutality, again, would lead to the death of the people he have beaten. Even if the guy doesn't die and doesn't commit suicide, we have to ask was the application of force necessary. If a police officer use excessive amount of force to stop a criminal or a suspect, the officer can suffer legal consequences. But Batman seems to be outside of that. That's one of the reason why I think that no kill rule needs to also include no brutality or excessive violence, which then creates some issues.
I almost wonder if the exploding collar was supposed to be explode more like the ones in Battle Royale but the studio had them change it for the PG-13 rating
I dont think you guys mentioned this but I also thought it was really convenient that the riddler didn't show up in person to kill Bruce Wayne when everyone else he killed himself. He had access to the mayors house, it is hard for me to imagine he couldn't break into Bruce's or at least wouldn't try.
You think breaking into a mansion is the same thing as breaking into the other victims' houses? Damn, do you guys ever think before you make a dumb complaint to try to bring up a "convenience". Also his method would have been different anyways because Bruce wasn't the same kind of target and his intention was to blow him up. Also, how the fuck would it be a convenience if the Riddler breaking into Bruce's place would have ended in failure?
@@za-ir5ni I think it would be assumed that the mayor would have more security than some rich reclusive guy, so why would he not do it? Also he has no idea when that package will actually get to Bruce so he was pretty much just hoping the timing worked out. It wouldn't have been a convenience if he tried to break in and it didn't work out because it would have been the same thing he did to the other people he killed. It would have made sense for him to try to kill bruce in person and fail because he didnt know he was batman. He waited for the DA guy in his car and I don't think we saw how he caught the other ones but all of them were in person since he tortured and recorded it. So just saying "he wants to blow Bruce up" doesn't explain the difference in methods.
@@leetmeathead Breaking into a billionaire's skyscraper penthouse when you're a poor loser isn't that easy. For one he'd struggle to get past the doorman, if he managed to get in the lobby there's no way he'd be allowed to use the elevators. Bruce Wayne being a reclusive means he's not out in public often enough to be a targeted.
1:23:00 Andy Serkis was an awesome Alfred! He was one of the biggest strengths and weaknesses in this movie though. While his performance was amazing and really captured the essence of the character he was (imo) criminally underutilized. In pretty much every scene where Batman’s out on patrol we should have heard Alfred in an ear piece communicating with him. Alfred is the original “guy in the chair” and this movie didn’t really capture that at all!
I don't like this version of The Riddler. I almost did. I thought he was better and more interesting than I expected or the majority of the movie. But I think he's ruined by the climaxes and explanations. Why the fuck would he think that he and Batman are on the same side? Why is he leaving riddles for Batman? Why does he think the cops will cooperate with him and invite Batman in - and if that's expected, why would Riddler think they're on the same side, when the cops and Batman are cooperating? Why wasn't there any evidence that Riddler and his online friends liked Batman when they were discovered? I'm very open to understanding things that I didn't understand in this movie if there are things to understand, but I don't think the ends justify the means. Was there anything that I missed that introduced the idea at all that Gotham is below sea level and protected by sea walls at any point before pulling up the rug? I hope I missed something, but I don't think I did and don't think EFAP mentioned it earlier or covered it enough when it was brought up. It's just "third act escalation for nough reason" when the rest of the movie felt like there was a clear purpose to the Riddler's killings and goals. The flooding seemed out of nowhere because they felt like they didn't have a big city-saving set piece and "you need one in a superhero movie." Please explain to me why I'm wrong and be correct about it. For a lot of the movie, I was under the impression that Riddler was leaving clues for the dual purpose of proving that he's smarter than the police and as a direct challenge to Batman. That's what his motive typically is, that makes more sense as a motive to involve Batman or riddles at all in his murder spree, and it makes a lot more sense than what's presented in this movie by the end. Riddler is more compelling if he's so confident in his own intellect and also has extreme OCD that he needs to challenge someone to stop him. He made a lot more sense up until his confession scene. That retroactively ruined everything he did prior. It's not just a preference thing. It's a this doesn't make sense thing, unless someone can prove to me that it does.
I found it weird when Batman followed Selina that her gadgets where all on a wall that could be seen through a window AND neither of them closed any windows at night. The second point is especially strange when you think that Selina's friend would probably be concerned about being found right now.
I mean, when people see a tight leather outfit and a bullwhip hung up near the bedroom, they might not automatically think Cat Burglar..... But I get your point.
An extremely well made film that made me feel precisely nothing emotionally. No sadness. No suspense. No Fear. No anticipation. No sympathy. No anger. No excitement. No relief. No nothing.
@@jcore0981 Notice how that doesn't require disagreeing with me. Basically what I'm saying is that this movie was objectively great. But subjectively, it didn't do anything for me.
"Alfred Wayne" does sound remarkably good to me. There's so much here I can't recall understanding when watching the film for the first time. I'll need to rewatch it.
Would have made more sense and made for a better villain tbh. You still could have ended the movie with Riddler knowing Batman's identiy, but refusing to tell anyone, out of some code of 'honor', because he doesn't like to spoil riddles.
@Wavid I mean they are, trust me. We can discuss them if you want. But their critiques about Riddlers character, his plan etc. Also they are removing all suspension of disbelief going as far to say Gun physics aren’t entirely accurate and Batman going through glass for a cool shot and entrance kills people below when Batman has done that for decades. Trust me, there’s a reason this film is beloved. If it was some nonsensical film that didn’t make sense. No one would like it or praise it to this extent. They’d call it enjoyable and that’s it. This film has next level praise for a reason.
@Wavid ok, so you’re criticizing all of Batman… that’s what Batman has always done… so it’s an irrelevant criticism. You’re not a robot dude. It’s called suspension of disbelief, people can accept some things in a superhero film. That’s one of them. A cool entrance isn’t gonna be realistic. Doesn’t have to be either. So yea unless you’re 10 years old, it’s a dogshit criticism that’s irrelevant and means nothing.
@Wavid you can’t… none of what they said is valid. If you have a critique. By all means I’ll hear you out. But this film is air tight. Phenomenal script. Next you’ll tell me you can critique The Shining or Godfather next💀 but eh let’s see what you have
I think the set up for the car chase scene was strange. Batman and Co were being fired upon. Penguin moved in to finish them off and then realised Batman was not on the floor where he thought he would be. Then Batman started revving the engine. What is Batman’s plan here? To rev the engine while cat woman and Gordan are killed? Is he going to run the gangsters over and then arrest their mangled corpses? It should have been something like: bullets sprayed at Batman and Co, who are forced to take cover. Perhaps Gordan returns fire, which leads the penguin to rethink having a gun fight. Penguin gets in his car to drive away. Damn he has got away. Batman reveals his car and jumps in to pursue.
This has got to be one of the best EFAPs I've watched in a while, which is saying something since you guys usually set the bar high anyways, thanks ya massive's.
2:08:00 why is the cop not noticing the safe considered lucky? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but just from memory I thought that this was where the mayor was left correct? That place was a mess, and if the cop or whoever it was was glancing in a crime scene I don't see how an open safe would be too suspicious unless they had memorized what and where everything was beforehand (which seems very unlikely). And even if it was one of the mayor's guards or one of his corrupt cops, I don't see why the mayor would feel the need to tell that person about the hidden safe. It seems like that would be the one thing that he would want nobody to know about. Edit: Rag's is a good doggo, and more or less accounted for what I said.
It felt lucky to me cause of the bag and tools conveniently placed on the floor next to the safe. I honestly just thought that there was a wall or something in the middle of the room for art and other decor.
I mean, Batman charging into the Iceberg Lounge guns blazing isn't that out of character. It's his way of reminding the criminals that he's more than a "sneak attack" kind of guy, that he can take them on face to face no problem as well (which becomes especially important when having to face more experienced criminals, that are not easily intimidated, as was the case in this scene). It happens a lot in the comics as well; he will get into a club looking for the owner to ask him about something, the security will get cocky and say "we ain't afraid of you, punk" and shit will ensue. So yeah, I personally had no problem with that. :)
It also highlighted one of my favorite subtle aspects of the movie, namely that Batman is still learning. He goes to the club three times and each time he enters differently. Which might be how Matches Malone develops, now that Batman knows he can get into shady places in easier ways. Just really really great stuff.
@@TunezCottage THANK YOU. I've been pointing out to others how the methodology of this "uncharacteristic" Batman transforms over the course of the movie, and his infiltration of the Iceberg Lounge/44 Below is a great example.
Surely this deserves a higher rating than No Way Home? NWH had a completely nonsensical, contrived, character assassinating plot to set everything up. While this film did not suffer anything that major. Not to say that NWH didn't have amazing character work, but the plot was a complete mess from top to bottom. The mechanics were completely borked. Whereas this film was more flawed in regards to some plot armor moments. But that wasn't constant or perennial throughout. The only two sequences I felt were a little egregious in the plot armor were the car chase and the final battle with Riddler's followers. Batman succeeded pretty reliably through contrivances during those. But that feels less fundamentally probelamatic than the entire set up and plot being nonsense.
Oh hey, just watching the Suicide Squad gag reel and one of the scenes that was obviously cut was one of the analysts talking about how they'd asked if Weasel can swim. So they were aware of it, but cut it out. Just interesting.
When they are talking about a more grounded way to do the signal they said shine it on a building but then you'd have to hope Batman can see that particular side of the building
The last part of Riddler's plan shouldn't have happened. The only reason it did was to have a final big action scene. The "I'm Vengance" scene could've been replaced by having the Riddler saying it or maybe The Riddler's community started to use it as a slogan "We're Vengance" and that made Batman realize. Cause The riddler's motivation up to this point is killing the corrupt rich and revealing their lies so idk why he would kill everyone And there's some other flaws to that I want to talk about: That time bomb scene is stupid, Batman knows that the bomb is gonna explode but didn't move away or cover his face in advance. Instead he got knocked out. And a pretty big plot hole is gonna happen after this. Instead of unmasking Batman, the police decided to bring him to the police station? For what? Unmasking him isn't just for knowing his identity, is to check if Batman's got a head trauma. After Batman was unconscious, the next logical step for the police is to unmask him and send him to the hospital. That entire thing happened just because Matt Reeves wants to show Batman flying That chase scene with the Penguin. Batman chase Penguin through the highway and it resulted in trucks exploding, cars crashing, and people dying. Batman should've known that a high speed car chase would've resulted in someone crashing and dying. He could've avoided it by crashing the Penguin's car before he got in it or before he drove off or just capture Penguin later. He already know Penguin is at the Iceberg Lounge and could've easily just interrogate or capture him there. People died in the car crash because of Batman And Catwoman's relationship with Batman is not well developed. She and Batman worked together and talk a couple of times and in the next scene they're kissing. It doesn't feel earned. That's the problem with this movie. It wants to do cool stuff but doesn't have a well thought out reason for why the cool stuff happens.
I can't help but notice that just after this was uploaded warner bros decided to release the trailer for DC League of Super-Pets with Keanu Reeves as Batman.
I think the point of batman showing up to the club is to juxtapose when he does it as Bruce Wayne and gets in without issue. I really liked how the film was telling us that Bruce was having trouble separating his identities.
4:33:36 But it's not just Falcone's word. Falcone's story lines up really well with The Riddler's story, and The Riddler has been correct about everything up to this point. Then you throw in how Thomas had helped Falcone, and Bruce being too young to have been able to say for 100% certainty that his father never dealt with the mob, it makes perfect sense that he would give credence to the story.
39:00 what happened to Rag's's's, is exactly what happened to me. This dude was snoring from the beginning so I had to tap him and ask him if he was alright... He said sorry for being loud. I told him we can only hear the snoring and not the movie. But I did it in a kind manner. He was cool with it, and he stopped sleeping the rest of the movie.
in defense of the dark hallway machine gun spark scene, if you look, the weapons they're firing are not rifles, but what appear to be mp5s and mp5ks, 9mm submachine guns with short barrels, effectively automatic pistols. Further, the darkness combined with the fear combined with the the recoil of firing its more believable than you'd think. However, the most damning firearms scene is by far the battle on the rafters, where batman is struck with what appear to be ruger american rifles, likely chambered in .308 Winchester, out of long barrels at close range, which should kill him within the first 2-3 successful shots on his armor (i believe they use bolt action rifles to specifically limit how fast the bad guys can shoot at him, which is a little lame/cheating from a writing perspective). A common misconception from people is that the shotgun blast should kill him, however this isn't as likely in reality. 12 gauge buckshot does not have the penetrative power to go through rifle rated armor plates, and even some modern handgun rated soft armor, however the force generated at close range on his armor should knock him back, perhaps not as extremely as we so though. the ambush scene where batman falls to the ground and teleports is a middle ground, all of the mobsters firing at batman use either pistols or submachine guns which would be unlikely to penetrate. a lot of people seem to misunderstand how firearms and armor interact; besides a round penetrating the armor the second greatest risk is being hit by fragmentation as rounds spall on impact, which is why a lot of modern body armor is designed to absorb and catch as many fragments as possible in addition to stopping the rounds. even if they miss the small target of his jaw or head or choose to aim center mass, and even if batman can effectively stop the rounds it seems like enough to fragment and hit either a less protected area of his suit or face. it also seems wierd that not once in this movie does batman suffer a gunshot wound, not even to his legs or arms which are less armored than his torso. because of the nature of the scenes taking place in close quarters and/or in dark environments i dont think this is as bad as mando, but if mando is 9/10 to 10/10 plot armor, batman should get at least a 6/10 or 7/10
I'd probably disagree with the first scene in the hallway, but I'd need to count how many shots actually hit the armor. I also can't remember whether or not he staggers at all from the shots, but he definitely would, even with pistol caliber rounds. I understand how they wouldn't be able to directly target his face though since the only light came from the muzzle flashes. I also didn't like the bolt action rifles at the end, especially because they later have automatic weapons in the same location. AR-15s would've made much more sense to take out the mayor too simply because you have more rounds to make your escape from the police, if that is their goal.
@@Djhiphop1000000000 It kind of is ridiculous though. If he's wearing flexible armor made of Kevlar and Ceramic plates than the bullet resistance is incredibly limited. The amount of shots he takes is absurd, even if it's mostly smaller rounds like 9mm a ceramic plate in a Kevlar carrier can only withstand so many shots (especially if any of them land in the same general area). Now if he is wearing Steel plates, that makes the amount of shots he takes more believable as thick steel plates are indeed incredibly durable. The problem with Steel plates though is that they are heavy and not flexible at all, hence why the military generally doesn't use them. If he's covered from head to toe in thick steel plates than his range of movement and speed is going to be restricted which I don't see any evidence of. Also, no way in hell that Shotgun shell at the end would do anything to a steel plate. And then you have the two most egregious examples of plot armor in the movie. Batman tanks a bomb at point blank range (for some reason, still not sure why). Armor isn't going to help you there especially when your chin is completely exposed to shrapnel. Also, the scene where he glides down to the bus and then deploys a parachute (again, not sure why he does this) which gets caught in a stone bridge that he then gets slammed into headfirst. That would more than likely take his head off. And btw, I overall enjoyed the movie. But I'm also not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend it's perfect.
1:54:22 There have actually been cases where a man has been shot through a silk kerchief and suffered a mortal wound, without piercing the silk. Unless the threads are broken when the bullet squashes the fabric against the armour, the cape could survive without immediately failing.
@@alexholker1309 Thank you. Another interesing bit of knowledge for my brain. Interestingly, the first bulletproof vests were invented by a Polish immigrant in Chicago, and they were made from multiple layers of silk.
@Alex Hokler Nifty fact! Although, remember that Batman had also just been through an explosion. I think it a stretch to say that the wingsuit would have been in pristine condition.
the wayne murder is the inciting incident which allows for the conspiracy to come into being, which in turn creates the riddler. the wayne murder is also the inciting incident that caused batman to come into being, which also contributes to the riddlers creation. thus, batman being bruce wayne and bruce wayne being connected to the conspiracy is not a contrivance. it is cause and effect stemming from the wayne murders.
I am currently working on an in depth video about The Batman and rewatching both the film and this episode discussing it, I have found so many major plot holes and character inconsistencies that utterly break this movie. I can’t wait to put it out, hope you guys will give it a watch when I’m finished.
@@jamesknapp64 I've heard exponential be used for lots of linear processes though, as well as for comparisons between two data points which could obviously fit almost any function. For most people big number = exponential apparently. I think this is comes from _science_ content becoming popular online, where the term is used correctly but without explaining when it is applicable. What makes this example stand out to me is that he actually knows the true formula. Or at least he mentions it.
38:28 3:34:50 the entire discussion on the ramp makes me laugh the thing too about the ramp forming is that it happened after Batman turned on the boost, so it's not like he knew the ramp was already there. so with that, im going to headcanon the implication that the batmobile would have been able to boost bulldoze through all the vehicle truck pileage if the ramp did not magically form haha. which i think Batman would see the same intimidating effect being had where he just continues on straight through the carnage even if he is still on the ground driving through it.
Just saw it again and you do see the ramp truck thing for a few seconds before it gets into the convenient position for the batmobile. So not quite appears out of nowhere but probably should have been shown better.
4:23:45 on the Spider-Man point: all those villains happening to be in the same city as Spider-Man has less to do with Peter and more to do with OsCorp, which is the common denominator not only to said villains, but to Peter being Spider-Man in the first place.
Funny you should bring up the dilemma of a riddle having more than one answer. In the Gotham show, Riddler gets super pissed because Lucius Fox doesn’t give the right answer to one of his riddles. The answer still fits the question, but it’s just not the one the Riddler wants. Fox fails Riddler’s test to become his worthy adversary. So we’re left to conclude that no one will fill that role until Batman enters the picture.
I will just copy my reply from unlisted. This stream might be one of the few times that I'm not aligning with EFAP a bit (which is ok, as Mauler once said) when it comes to the movie critique, and I'd say that they seem to be harsher on the movie than usual. No way Batman (2022) is 5/10, the same rating you've given Squid Game when the B plot in that series was insanely horrible and contrived to the limit. Given everything positive compared to negative in Batman (2022), it sits somewhere around 7/10. I came back to the 4th hour of the stream after I finished the movie in the cinema, so I will need to rewatch the stream to catch the rest of the critique. There were some fair points - the Bat-Signal being on the unguarded building, which is weird, and the unclear phone situation, but the Riddler's plan ultimately made sense. He was insane BUT only in his methods and not insane as per the usual EFAP definition of (insane = every action is handwaved by the plot). I'm willing to hear more criticisms that I've missed and discuss the movie more with the other members of the EFAP community.
If you're a criminal in Gotham, would you want to track down the source of the Bat Signal....a place the Batman is very likely to be? I don't mind it being unguarded. It's a little silly but doesn't break the story.
The Riddlers social media tactics were kinda weirdly written, for me... I think they describe it as "he's been posting all kinda things online and he's got like 500 followers" and that his last video has a bunch of views but its password protected.. So did he give out this password to specific viewers he trusted (which.. idk bout that) or they all figured out the password before gcpd?
Yeah Efap boys are biased about batman. They are too deep into marvel-iness. I agree that it's a 7/10. I have watched the movie twice. Almost every single thing made sense and the Riddler endgame was also on point. I personally think the last 15 minutes could've been done in 3. And that joker/two face cameo felt out of place and cringe. All in all this was a valid and exciting take on Batman that was worth the wait. Felt like batman was actually menacing.
@@archstanton9073 Some powerful gang may one day try to get rid of Bats using the fake signal, just to lure him into the trap. I think that's a possibility given his reputation and being a general pain in the bottom to the general evildoer.
The reason why “I am the shadows” isn’t edgy when used in this film is because we are immediately shown well filmed and well written proof of this line. He isn’t just some edgy character stating that he’s the shadows. He contextualizes this by referencing that bat signal and how “it’s not only a call but a warning to the criminals of Gotham.” He quite literally is the shadows of Gotham. To criminals he is always there, waiting and watching from the darkness. It isn’t edgy because we are both shown and told.
You say that, but it is kind of edgy though. If anything I felt like the visuals and context made the line kind of redundant but that might just be me.
About the Question if it is a coinsidence that Bruce Wayne is Batman: In this movie? No. I think both are in effect symptomes of the same Problem. Because Gotham is such a social climate and culture that allows a Conspiracy like the one we deal with in this movie to happen was also reason why the Wayne Murder took place. Also the Waynes Money is relevant for the Conspiracy due to the Renewal Program. And those Riches allow Bruce to be Batman - since ths is what allows him to have his equipment and it led to the Waynes having Alfred as a Butler who, as this Film implies, has taught him to fight and is also helping out. So no the elements that made the conspiracy possible are the same Elements that led to Bruce becoming the Batman. I would not call that a coincidense.
I wonder how much Lord of the Rings would change if Frodo and Sam had left a couple minutes earlier, since they wouldn't have run into Merry and Pippin.
4:10:27 Fringy "Just again, your regular reminder that racism is really stupid". I laughed and clapped at the same time. Love the way he delivered that. Also, love hearing Meme in these videos, always enjoy his commentary.
If they had just removed the race part and instead had just said. "Rich privileged assholes" Then I guarentee you not a single person would have had a problem with it, but adding race in something that literally has nothing to with race is just weird. Like rich asian and black people exist, look at how much NBA stars or american rappers make..?
7:00:10 This reminds me so much of a classroom. Fringy being the substitute teacher who is patiently refusing to say anything until his students are quiet so he can move on. 😅
@@s-zz it would probably still be a problem because of the word privilege and rich. It would be better if she just said corrupt assholes or something. The problem is that because politics and social issues are shoehorned in movies it’s easy to get in the habit of looking for it when it may not be there.
@@s-zz it's not weird when you understand the environment where Matt Reeves, the director, comes from in Bad Robot. Who are notoriously known for a combatting white privilege memo that famously states there intent for there to be no White comfort. It's really disturbing stuff and lifted directly from New Left and critical theory talking points that have absolutely inundated the conversation. Woke is kind of new nomenclature for a process that has been going on a very long time. This is confusing for a lot of people because most are just getting exposed to it like I did after high school which prompted me to do a tremendous amount of research. Let's just say were in a whole hell of a lot of trouble because most people are incapable of realizing who is doing this and why. Basically everyone would have to reformat everything about their political theology and civic myths in their entirety and it's just way too late.
"The batman movie is a literal perfection"
"It will be, when it fits a Batwoman"
Holy sex joke, Batman!
That's a statement full of vengeance! rssr
"I'm A wOomAaaan...!:
Ew no
Batwahman, you mean
Alright, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Alfred translates "You are el rata alada" from a cypher, there is no error in his use of "el." In the movie, Alfred comments that the Riddler's Spanish isn't very good, attributing the error to him. Batman was aware of the broken Spanish, it wasn't news to him when the penguin told him, that just made it click in his mind. You are el = URL
I just got the whole URL thing from your comment, and now I'm not sure if I think it's clever or sooooooo silly. Seems more like a very dumb joke. I would have saved it for the Joker movie.
Watching this movie in spanish is honestly Spain without the S.
URL, and I'm Kira.
I THINK.... It's LA Ratta. Masculine feminine in Spanish. RattA is feminine so you'd used LA not EL. So by using the wrong one it highlights it and moves your attention. you are El rata... El is wrong.. he hasn't been wrong before... so why El? ... you are El? URL ..... see?
Haven't seen it, and I'm a bit confused about this whole thing, but isn't it common practice to put ciphers through translators to look for hidden meanings? Seems like a weird thing to mess up
The only moment I found funny was when Riddler at the end pulls a full on Gabbie Hanna and says “ I am so proud of this community” to his followers. That was hilarious to me
I feel you.
THUMB drive
I thought this movie had pretty good humor throughout that felt like natural responses to the situation.
I also love when the Riddler says 'I ordered a Pumpkin Pie,' before his body is slammed onto the table by a cop. Something about that delivery really got me laughing.
Penguin line “what is this good cop and bat💩 cop” gave me a chuckle
My favourite part of the movie was when Batman told Falcone "Tell that to the random girl's strangled neck"
Mine was when Alfred slammed his laptop and said "What'cha bring me?"
@@lordofthepizzapie9319 Was that guy supposed to be Alfred?
My favourite part was when Selina said her mother's name was Martha.
“I’ll spray paint your ass!”-Penguin
The helping the girl in the stretcher almost got me as did when he lit the flare and reached out to help the people. I felt the heroic feelings there
Yeah, the way he silently reassures her before she’s carried off made me smile. I always really like seeing Batman comfort people; it hits harder coming from him than a lot of other heroes precisely because he has such a reserved demeanor.
Yeah but Batman's supposed to be koooool!!! He can't have depth. He has to blow people up and be badass!
And every Snyderling immediately hated this movie from that point on because this batman is a pussy...
but yeah, the point of Batman was always that he was trying to be better than the people he's fighting against
@@unpopularopinions7407 this is honestly the first Live Action Batman/Bruce that I can see comforting a child who just lost his parents in the circus, or holding a little girl’s hand on a swing set as she dies.
@@zerotohero1483 and that is what makes this version of Batman special for me.
FYI, Riddler wasn't wailing in his jail cell. He was singing a really high and pitchy version of Ave Maria. You know, the song that permeated the entire movie to the point that if I never hear it again I can die happy.
Well he did both. He cried/wailed in certain spots in frustration and grief, and then began in on the song
That ave maria thing they were going with put me off hard. Especially in the binoculars intro. It sent my brain straight into hitman Blood money.
@@mk-tu3gv same, lol. My first thought was, "Okay, Riddler's clearly been playing some Hitman."
As a professional musician who has to play/sing this particular piece at nearly every wedding and funeral, I was already of the mindset that I would die happy if I never had to hear it again, even before hearing Riddler butcher it
@@mk-tu3gvI loved it. Remember going home and listening it on RUclips
If batman didn’t mistake penguin as the “rat with wings” then the TSA would’ve showed up and melted him
If catwoman didn’t miss the shot, she would have been melted.
I miss this!
If Falcone didn’t strangle his daughter he would’ve been melted
Parson my ignorance, but what's TSA?
@@soyuzdavillan721 TVA post Kang11
4:42:15 I know Jay says a Bat signal would not work. But one month after this EFAP episode came out, the guys at Hacksmith Industries actually made a functioning Bat signal. just a fun fact
Did they only use it with clouds though?
As to the crash with penguin, you would be surprised how much a seat belt can do in the event of your car flipping like that. I had an accident like that years ago and I came out completely unscathed
I don’t think Penguin surviving is the issue, it’s more that from Batman’s perspective he could have very easily killed him
@@unpopularopinions7407 no I get that, there was just some doubt from some of the people in the stream as to how penguin didn’t get hurt. That’s all I’m addressing.
@@Ignatiusofantioch87 A roll can be a lot better then a sudden impact, less force is applied to the body even though the roll looks more violent.
I would argue the whole flooding plot could have been cut from the movie and just have the final act be Riddler’s Followers assassinating the Mayor.
The whole big riddler flood plot at the end felt kinda forced imo. I thought he wanted to go after corrupt people, but in the end he just believes everyone is corrupt even innocent people..... That's what I got from it.
@@rayvonvelez3129 i got from the end that they basically wanted to shot the new mayor and some police officers because riddler thought the election was a fraud and the flooding was there to keep them in that place, even if it felt like a bit too much cause of „splosions“ that part actually felt very comic batman to me and nolanesque as well
The only issue i have, it makes the movie a tiny bit too long
I'd rather they end the movie at the Joker killing Falcone and not have the final act.
Agreed. 100%. And IF they have wanted to have that flooding sequence, they should have set it up better. At least show vans being parked and abandoned by Paul Dano. That way the reveal that he is the Riddler when they unmask him would land better... Instead of just "Redditor Riddler learnt everything off the internet forums and got caught because some witness girl spotted him." It all happens off-screen and so fast.
For a movie that took its time with the beginning and first half, I hate how rushed the last half is. It might as well just not be there.
I wanted it to end with Batman and Gordon finding and apprehending the Riddler. That's the movie. The end credits is Riddler being in the cell adjacent to Joker. Who says he's impressed with his work. Riddler wants Batman's validation, gets Joker's instead. Good place to end.
What abt batmans arc? What abt the end situation which would affect the sequels and spin offs? Those are major positive points in the movie how can u remove them?
The one scene that stuck out to me was after Batman punched Gordon, the cops chased him for a bit but he wasn’t desperately wanted throughout the rest of the film.
I think its still possible that he was being hunted offscreen until he brought in Falcone. I dont think he has any run ins with the police after leaving the gcpd until he brings in Falcone.
But man the cops all coming out at once was hilarious, reminded me of matrix 2's scene where an army of smiths suddenly break into the battleground
Also where they just started shooting at a fleeing man while inside of a crowded police station lol
Because later in the film he had caught the biggest crime boss… think for once
@@tannerchaffin9235 yea they highly respect the police chief and from where they were shooting there was no one in the way. So what’s the issue?
3:59:39 the riddler explains his anger towards bruce.
The renewal was a lie, riddler and other orphans are living 30 to a room and dying whilst bruce is living with billions in his tower, and people only seem to care about how tough bruce has had it after the waynes are killed.
Then, as we know, Bruce doesn’t really do much in the day with his money or resources, so the Riddler hates him for that.
One of the reasons why I don't believe the movie knows who Bruce Wayne is... I even think the movie is about any character except Bruce Wayne... 20 years of a rotting orphanage and his father's trust fund in the hands of a mobster... and the World's Greatest Detective didn't realize when he started his crusade in Gotham?? ... Riddler is a hero... Bataman is a depresssed playboy with dissociative crisis of reality!! rssrsr
@@PauloSilva-ep9ox I don’t think that’s fair. Falcone had everyone in his pocket, the courts, the police, the mayor, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to keep this from Bruce.
After his parents deaths Bruce would have been training to become batman, that was probably a big enough distraction for him to not immediately investigate his dead parents’ trust fund.
I think Batman was the best part of this movie. His interactions with Alfred were good, his buddy-relationship with Gordon was good, and his moral core was there, it was also cool to see him show up to crime scenes and see things that detectives didn’t.
@@ericsonofjohn9384 "I don't think that's fair. Falcone ....."
But a private fund?? How?? Did Thomas pass him over to city control? If Btaman/Bruce is committed to fighting for Gotham, why not start socially as well and use par excellence in depth that it was the family legacy to Gotham that Bruce always wanted to renew by becoming Batman and avenging his parents? Batman/Bruce has always done this...!
"After his parents died Bruce would have been training ....."
And then.... how does the World's Greatest Detective miss the reason for a candidate's candidacy for mayor? when he arrived in Gotham and started fighting for her, didn't he realize it? I believe this Bruce/Batman is a situational piece of this movie exclusively, not a trans media entity we know...Remember in Dark Knight: Begins, he plans a coup d'etat against his own table of CEOs lol... he fights like Bruce and as Batman!!
"I think Batman was the best part of this movie......"
I agree, I didn't like this Batman, but as a character in this movie, Batman, Falcone, Alfred and Penguin are great!! I enjoyed Alfred being a guilty bodyguard raising the child of a fallen battle 'brother'!!
@@PauloSilva-ep9ox I think you’re clearly missing the point of the movie. Riddler was not a hero, but Bruce was definitely not as good of person as previous versions, and that was intentional. The movie is obviously criticizing him for not helping people, thats what his arc is by the end of the movie, when he learns vengeance won’t help the city. But why would he have investigated the renewal at all? He was obsessed with vengeance and believed his father was like a perfect person, and there was no reason to look into the renewal because it had no relevance to anything until Riddler brought it up, and he found out the truth like right after that anyways.
@@jakesimpson3373 Hi...thanks for the words!
Come on... So.. I get your point.. I really agree with everything you've said, but as a movie about a certain vision of Batman... and that *if I may* I don't believe it's a coherent representation of Batman ! While within this movie, this "Revenge" character is really blinded by following idealisms and yearnings to which he is actually alienated! Batman is not that, his legacy is one of intelligence and altruism under a methodical and judicious vigilante activity! His investigative skills are guided by the opportunism of the script..he does not perform laboratory analysis, surveillance of suspects waiting for the criminal to attack them, he does not infiltrate the Riddler's virtual "followers" when they are introduced early in the film, he does not investigate or Server IP lol I understand he's a newbie, but he sins in points that are as much a part of the character's mythology as his own name!! Batman has problems with his family's secrets, but even so, he wouldn't let this one in the background pass so shamelessly under his nose. how can a candidate for mayor building his platform on the problem he is, manage to wake up a guy as smart as this Bruce from the movie couldn't see that??? Like.. it was on TV all the time..."Wayne Fund is evil..I'm going to fire him"...I see a lot of flaws not only as a Batman movie, but as the neo-noir movie it purports to be! Is Batman here so blinded by revenge that he can't see what the bad guys are doing? under your nose? A billionaire trained in investigation and ninjutsu who only solves riddles? So what's the point of being a Batman movie? ...I don't want my arguments to be taken as rude, I really appreciate you engaging in this discussion.... as I said... I agree with your points if we take this film as something apart, my disagreement is about being this one Batman movie!
Alfred couldn't have been in Batman's ear during the car chase since he was busy being blown up at the time.
If this is not a joke,
the context of what Rags is saying is that what Batman is doing is insanely dangerous and at that moment, somebody should tell him to slack off, Alfred should say this to Bruce. I don't think he is making a statement about the film only that the crash caused by Peguin is itself caused by Batman chasing him.
I think.
@@thil2894 it’s dangerous but not enough to warrant Alfred whatsoever. The guy just attempted to kill all 3 of them and you think letting him get away is the better alternative?
Catching him and getting info to stop the larger enemy will prevent more deaths than whatever casualties are caused by the chase. Which Batman drived very carefully in mind you.
@@Djhiphop1000000000 I was just resaying the point Rags brought. I don't really care.
@@Djhiphop1000000000 Batman abandons Gordon to die to try and catch penguin, when he can catch him later. Penguin is also not an active danger to the general public at this time, save for what Batman causes with the car chase.
@@EmberBright2077 so many dumb points.
Abandoned? Batman scared off Penguin and his goons. Whoever is left Gordon can take care of. He can handle himself. Catwoman was also there.
Also such a stupid mindset. Batman has limited time, he can’t afford to let him get away, he NEEDS to get to Riddler quick. Because not catching him will lead to more casualties. So just because he’s not causing issues to the public at that time. Letting him get away will let Batman let many more innocents lives at fate than whatever’s are effected by the chase.
So yea maybe watch the movie again before making such hilariously dumb points.
When you mentioned it might be more grounded for the bat signal to shine on a building rather than the sky it occurred to me that the tallest building in Gotham is Wayne Tower. That might be too on the nose to have the bat signal shining on Wayne Tower lol.
You'd also need 4 bat signals so that you can see it from all angles, meaning Gordon either has to conscript 3 other people to activate the signal, or he has to drive to each one lol. It also makes it harder to meet up by just waiting at the spotlight.
In the The Dark Knight Returns, I think the tallest building is The Gotham Life Building on which the batsymbol shines.. so it's not a new concept..
It's a comic book thing, just have the bat signal be the way it always was and don't question it 🙄
May as well whine about how nobodys shooting Batman in the mouth
@@SK008and? That means nothing you moron. It’s mostly showed in the sky
37:30 I laughed when Batman slowly walked towards Penguin and got on his knees to really look at him
There seemed to be a lot of these sorta lingering shots. Maybe to highlight the humanness of this Batman, but yes we chuckled a lot at the awkwardness
@25meip I just thought that one was especially silly because of how dragged out it is and the only thing it adds is an awkward shot of Batman kneeling down to look Penguin in the eyes. I think the fact that you just see his head slowly coming into the frame just makes it really odd.
I think that would be a lot more intimidating from the perspective of a thug who was seeing him for the first time. If that was Batman’s first appearance in the movie, it’d probably do better at pulling off its intended effect
Pretty sure it was suppose to be at least somewhat humorous at the end
I'm not sure why they left that in. Should've just been the wide shot of him walking, then Penguin freaking out. Then next scene. Watching him stoop down with his head all tilted like we're in a Purge movie was.. an experience.
The Riddler won in the end, and they acted like he didn’t. That was the super confusing part.
its because he failed to kill the mayor
yeah I was thinking the same
Didn't feel like a win at all, but the movie tried to play it out a if Batman won
If they had done a "we fall to pick ourselves up" kinda thing, it would have fit so much more
@@ty15533 Who is apparently the one person in Gotham who isn't responsible for the corruption. I don't understand his reasoning here.
@@spudg8558 the same way riddler was against the rich and fighting for the lower class and then goes on to flood the lower parts of gotham where the poor and homeless lives
@@theeloquentweiner7054 True, I didn't remember until you mentioned it but when I first saw that I thought "wait, this flood isn't touching above the 3rd or 4th story of any of these buildings."
I was originally thinking the riddler goons were parody-ishly extreme. But then I saw the live comments on this video and remembered people do act like that
Yep especially some comments talking about how this movie is covid fear mongering and pro tech censorship.
I mean they do in chat rooms
It is on the nose and it is obviously Hollywood depicting their political enemies as crazy killers, but it's not unbelievable to the point where the movie doesn't work. Yeah I'm pretty sure you can find 30 guys who hate the world enough to do something like that in Gotham City, which is rampant with crime and corruption.
@@spudg8558 It felt like they were going for a joker thing where he was a symbol of the downtrodden. Instead of a straight up serial killer lol
@@CaptainCastle I can see the angle, but like you see in politics, the movie's view of the 4chan types as "downtrodden" "forgotten" white men only goes so far as to patronize them rather than afford them any empathy or understanding. I don't think there's any point at which we're actually supposed to feel bad for the Riddler or his henchmen or sympathize with their motives. So imo the reference is still politically motivated and not an attempt to make the story morally complex. Because they are straight up serial killers lol.
“I don’t get the impression that he had any minor injuries after that fight”, isn’t there a whole shot showing how bruised Bruce’s body is?
That shot was flashing in my head when they were saying that.
Could be just his overall damage and injuries from days earlier too. If not scars from the 2 years
I really didn't remember him having that much damage when he was shirtless and I've looked up photos online since to see it in static detail. From what I can see, I really don't see much, if any, bruising at all. He's just his pale self without much discoloration anywhere. He does have scars here and there that look pretty well-since healed over.
I took that as them showing all the scars from his entire career as batman, not just that one fight
there was
“It’s hard not to think about the screams in the background.” Has to be one of my favorite MauLer statements ever.
Yeah, the "w. privilege" line Catwoman drops comes out of nowhere and lands like a wet fart. I know it "has" to be in there because Hollywood but I wish they didn't.
Yeah. When she said it I literally thought I had imagined it lmao
I agree it felt out of place, its better to understand the character having that perspective rather than the movie saying its right. Because even the movie goes out of its way to justify Thomas Wayne. Felt like the kind of ignorance real people have or hatred someone whose friend had their passport stolen by a politician and steals from the rich would have.
Personally don't have much of an issue with it it just feels weird
I don't think its justifying Riddlers hatred for Bruce just for being a rich orphan since that character is insane. Again to me seems like situations you do get from class divides and living in a place like gotham
@@PauloSilva-ep9ox
No, it doesn't- it has everything to do with the Waynes being unfathomably rich, not because they're white. It was pointlessly divisive identity politics
@@gingeranagram2467 I understand.... I don't disagree with this point, I still resist the identity subtext (lol), but more like an overanalysis on my part, I think... but the theme of the revolt against financial privilege I agree is the main theme of the antagonisms established in the film !! Despite not liking how stuck Batman is put to him... and the mediocre way Batman makes use of Bruce Wayne's money lol!!!
@@cameronroy2129 It doesn't even make sense for Selina to say that, she's dating one of the most "privileged" straight white men in the city and we don't get any other indication she thinks that way besides that her dad is white and she hates him specifically.
On the subject of falling asleep in the theater. I went with my friends to watch A Good Day to Die Hard, for whatever reasons I skipped sleep the previous night and fell asleep just 5 min into the movie. To this day I haven't seen the movie but for what I've heard about it, it wasn't a great loss.
I fell asleep pretty much straight away when in the cinema watching that Tom Hanks movie where he's stranded on an island. Woke up at the end and some fedex package or summink
Despite being so short compared to the others, Die Hard 5 is boring as all hell. I wouldn’t have blamed you for falling asleep regardless.
Hah, I basically did the same thing and to this day it's the only time that I've fallen asleep in a movie theater
A dude right next to me did that when I saw Interstellar. 10min in to the movie he was out like a light and didn't wake up til like 20mins left.
@@jamesrogers1554your friend is sad af lol. That’s a perfect film
I think fundemtally the problem with the movie is that Riddler's actions for the first two thirds of the film have almost nothing thematically to do with the last third. It feels like the Riddler's plan and the film is just building and building to some huge revelation, only to lead to some non-sequitur plan to destroy Gotham and massacre civilians. Riddler's leading Batman by the nose only lead to the revelation that Gotham is corrupt, but we as the audience kind of already knew that.
Wasn't the whole point to destroy the city built on lies ?
Pretty sure there's a lengtht explanation of That
Basically : it's too rotten to even change at this point, the real change will come when it's razed and rebuilt
The first part of the plan was to get to the core of the conspiracy that would destroy the city in spirit before destroying it physically to make sure the previous "regime" can't take over again.
That's a good analysis of the problem. The pay off was not satisfying.
62 morons who the entire point of the story flew right over their heads.
Riddler's action every single one of them mesh together with a coherent line of logic.
He starts with killing the corrupt one by one, mimicing Batman putting the fear of god in them. Do you understand this part well???
If so I need you sit back and relax because I am about to show you something your sub human intelligence could not have understood on itself in a million years.
REMEMBER WHAT THE MAIN MESSAGE OF THE STORY WAS???? REMEMBER WHAT WAS THE MAIN LESSON BATMAN LEARNED?
Vengeance is ever consuming. Vengeance is a raging flame that burns the innocent and guilty alike. Vengeance starts as a a giant burst of rage, that after its first flash it starts to fester and grow into a cold irrational psychopathic hatred.
Riddler was a look into the future that awaited Bruce, a warning for him, that if he continues on this path of vengeance it will not lead to a pretty place. Riddler started with a vengeance that was understandable, against the corrupt, same as Batman. But Riddler indulging himself in his vengeance caused him to be very quickly lead stray into the biggest depths of depravity and cruelty.
That's one of the issues. Another fundamental problem is that nobody has a clue what drives the Riddler. Ok, he doesn't like lies. But he doesn't mind murder. Interesting priorities, but why?
@@ETBrooD No that I got. He became disgruntled by being in an underfunded orphanage while corruption ate up all the dollars that should have benefited his orphanage. And the very people pocketing the money were also making a fortune selling drugs to the orphans they impoverished in the first place. That's an excellent motive to turn vigilante and fight corruption.
But trying to flood Gotham isn't fighting corruption nor is it the actions of a vigilante, it's just plain terrorism. And as far as I can tell, it's terror without a tangible goal.
Instead of Batman saying "I am the shadows", he should have said: "I grew up surrounded by shadow"
I have enough shadows. what I need is vengeance
Would you say he was, molded by it?
What? That makes no sense. He is talking about how he is seen from the perspective of the criminals. I'm paraphrasing here but he says as far as the criminals are concerned I’m not a man who hides in the shadows, I am the shadows.
He is living in their heads. The criminals have bought into the idea that he’s not just a guy who could be hiding in a shadow somewhere in the city... he’s in all the shadows all at once. That’s why they back away from the shadows.
I have met shadows
@@harrykatsaros I think you may have missed the context from EFAPs Boba Fett coverage. Tis a joke sire.
I don't think it's a coincidence that Bruce Wayne (who happens to be Batman) is involved with the conspiracy, because Thomas and Martha dying was the inciting incident of the conspiracy. The conspiracy and Batman were created by the exact same event, so I think that makes it not coincidental.
Right but plenty of people who are orphaned don't turn into masked vigilantes
@@TheButterAnvil sadly
Sort of. Thomas was show to be corrupt and wanted power. He set up the charity to buy his way into the mayor's office. So, that's conspiracy 1.
After he dies, all the corrupt people see this giant pot of money and they all agree to using it instead of fighting over it. So, that's conspiracy 2.
Riddle came along and wanted to expose how dirty both the Wayne's were and all the politicians claiming to be helping the people.
I remember a story about Dick Cheney where he was at some meeting or photo op, and suddenly the secret service guys run up and _carry him_ down several flights of stairs into a safe room. When he finally catches up on what just happened they explain that the Pentagon and the WTC just got bombed and he's to stay in hiding until further notice.
Yeah. The police would've stopped her.
I was baffled by how after, apparently, getting shot in the abdomen (where she was clutching at, while Gordon was pulling her to safety), she just casually wades through chest-high water with everyone else as they follow Batman to safety. I was like, "Wait wasn't she just shot?!"
@@mourad505 she was shot in the shoulder and then someone tended to it before the flooding got too bad. Literally pulled a Leia and got enough to make us worry a sec but little enough that they can straightup forget she's still injured by next scene
@@samwallaceart288 nah, she was holding the left side of her belly.....
A gut shot is not something that can be brushed off lol. (that's not aimed at you, just saying, in general) ;)
@@NicTheGreek1979 Also doesn’t help sea water going into a wound is very dangerous and since they lack a hospital area it’s possible she dies due to infection if not blood loss
@@snakeguy8646 exactly, not to mention going into really bad shock from blood loss.
But nah, "muh stronk woomoonz" lol 😆
Great job leading the discussion, Fringy!
Fringy taken over EFAP.
@@sparkypack Next thing you know he's gonna rename it to Every Frame A Goo, EFA... Err, maybe not actually.
In any case.
Yeah, Uhm, Aahh, Erm, Ah
🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢🧢
Watched the movie yesterday. Came out of cinema thinking, that the movie would end within the first half an hour if police or batman decided to investigate where the leaked photos were taken from. Even the Falcone would send people to check the location overlooking his joint after press published those.
Yeah... there could only be a few places they could be taken from. It would be worth checking the apartments, famous for holding stakeouts from.
Its worse. if they just hadnt plugged int he "thumb" drive into a networked conputer the whole plot wouldnt occur
I wish they would've just had those photos taken from literally anywhere else.
Could've been from street level where there'd be nothing to go on to identify the photographer. Could've been from a different apartment to act as a red herring. Anything but the actual apartment of the dude who's trying to expose these people.
Hey! Fringy! Awesome job, man! Very impressive maiden voyage at the Long Helm. Looking forward to more. :)
From the initial take, I can conclude that only Jay and Fringy had an emo phase.
Rags was born in it, raised by it
Mauler I grow up surround by emo
Fringy had an emu phase
I had a scene phase, actually.
I was 12 leave me alone.
@@JayExci fake scener girl
01:46:00 - Listening to you discuss him showing up at the front door as a bad tactic for an introduction. It occurred to me that one of the things I noticed about the story structure was that we would see Batman interact with different people also as Bruce Wayne. There's the uniformed cop who doesn't like Batman being at the crime scene but is happy to see Bruce Wayne. And there's the guy at the church when Bruce shows up at the funeral who we see unmasked later after getting the shit kicked out of him by Batman. We see Bruce show up at the front door and ask to see Penguin and he gets greeted by the twins in the same way that Batman did, only once again of course it's a different reaction. While fundamentally I agree that Batman would have to taken a different approach to Penguin, I think the overall structure of showing this duality was an interesting choice & why they did it this way - in addition to giving us another fight scene.
It's like poetry, it rhymes.
Nah, Batman has taken confrontal approaches before. And this is a Batman who’s starting off and wants to intimidate as much as he can.
Sure, agreed. I still find it interesting that there are specific scenes showing him interacting with people as Batman and then also as Bruce Wayne. We really don't see that very often I think.
Also the character realizes his first approach was suboptimal because the next time he gets let in as Bruce, the final time he says forget this and just sneaks in.
In regards to the 4:20:00 hot take, I would say in this movie the plot happening is not a coincidence because in the story it was happening before Batman existed, the Riddler donning his Riddler persona probably isn't coincidence either because it plays into that idea Batman created his villains, these people would have been crazy to begin with, but Batman is what inspired them to their gimmicks
The Batman, Dune and Everything Everywhere All At Once were very pleasant surprises. Thought they'd be bad like most movies today but they were all really really good.
Here is a big issue I discovered. If anyone asked “where were these pictures taken from” when looking at the photos of the mayor or others. Riddler would have been found immediately. The photos were taken from his apartment, same place he shot from.
That isn’t an issue? There was nothing there that would’ve lead them to him. That was where he resided but not where he was operating throughout the film.
And besides he had it all planned out anyway. This was shown when they went to his apartment there was nothing there but information which couldn’t have possibly be understood until Batman found out more information.
@@mrmxyzptlk8906 the place would’ve been compromised and not useable later
@@mrmxyzptlk8906 except the videos, the diary, the murder weapon, the info under the rug. The photos were taken from his apartment, where he lives. If the second they saw the photos they said “this looks like it was taken from one of these apartments” and went to the apartment, he would have been captured and the rest of the murders would have been avoided and most likely the bombs stopped. Keep in mind the movie takes place over 6 days (if I’m not mistaken) first murder is day 1 they get the photos maybe day 2, that’s 4 days and 3 additional murders stopped, plus the bombs and mayoral shenanigans stopped.
@@immortallix huh?
@@NickYoung22 none of this indicates enough information to catch him…. Batman had already analyzed a crime scene of his and it was squeaky clean. He’s always a step ahead. Nothing in that apartment would’ve been enough to stop him. He had to follow the riddles in order to truly stop him.
I love how everyone's meme-ing around while the Green Man's so invested in this movie.
In that first investigation scene, I thought the cop of the left was tipping his hat at *Batman* at first, and I thought that was going to be a neat detail of the GCPD not all being on the same page with a vigilante consultant. Definitely agree they could've used more apparent dissension amongst the cops in the movie, to make it more believable that Batman is even allowed into the crime scene, able to confront the D.A. and left to "control" that whole situation. Like even just cutting a shot or two into that scene, going back to the cops standing by, where they're asking themselves what Batman thinks he's doing. The chief wants to step in, but Gordon and a few others are sure that will only set off Riddler.
I totally thought the cop was tipping his hat to Batman too but now I don’t know
@@unpopularopinions7407 Nah it was for Gordon, I was slightly disappointed.
@@kylefrank638 I mean, if the cop is tipping his hat to Gordon, isn't that essentially the same effect?
@@rindoubaka1574 I don't know about that. Even if Gordon is Batman's biggest proponent on the force, a cop might have respect for Gordon just because he earned his badge, even if they don't agree with him about Batman.
Anyone else think that the Riddler was working for the upcoming mayor? Both their hatred for corruption, as well as her many appearances, either through billboards or her chat with Bruce at the funeral, had me thinking she had much more to do with the story than she actually did.
She was black...
So no.
I thought the same thing as soon as her opponent was conveniently killed. No way does a totally clean person make it that far in a race for mayor in a city where the entire system is controlled by the mob. Also why would Riddler try to kill her if she really isn't corrupt?
@@iamthewizardwhoknocks2845 that feels like a bit of a stretch. I bet it was more that she was initially gonna be the true villain, but the studio executives wanted Batman to have some cool fight at the end of it and it had to be worked around this desire. I can't prove this, but it would explain why the Riddler's motives seemed confusing.
@@spudg8558 If they were working together, I could see it as a sort of false flag operation, if that's the right term. Like, the Riddler attempts a fake assassination attempt in order to make her seem less suspicious and increase public sympathy for. All it would really need is a slight rewrite of the Riddler in the film, like he hates the corruption within Gothem, and sees her as the best option forward, and will do anything to insure that she wins. The more I think about it, I kinda hate it that they didn't go with this approach. I know it was basically just a theory I made on the spot in the theater, but damn, it would have made the ending so much more satisfying in my opinion.
@@EasyEighty-Eight That's way better than what we got and yeah that's a good word for it lol. I don't think the writers would go for this even if they thought of it because 1. Riddler is supposed to be a caricature of an angry white 4chan user. Having him work with the good guy mayor candidate makes him more sympathetic and if she's actively working with him, that undermines her moral perfection. Two big no-nos given the angle they're pushing with these characters.
I wish mauler would watch under the red hood. It has the batman no kill conversation that he wants to hear. Especially since it's with a person batman failed to save.
Was I the only one that found it hilarious that Riddler's followers appear to be loading their weapons and magazines AFTER already getting in to the stadium?
Also, the weapon choice was a bit odd. At first, literally everyone has scoped, bolt action hunting rifles. These rifles are slow to reload and can't carry many rounds at once, but everyone has them, and they show a big stack of *loose* bullets sitting next to the guys who are proned out. Is the plan to shoot 5 shots, and individually reload them over and over again? Then once batman hops in, everyone has semi/fully automatic weapons and only the guys in the smoke cloud seem to have bolt action rifles again. Weird choices there imo.
@@tannerchaffin9235 I guess the rifles could be because that would be a common hunting weapon that these common crazy men could have easily acquired? Can't really comment on that semi/full automatic part, since I can't remember if they clearly showed which weapon each thug was carrying...
@@CaptainTitforce potentially, but the movie takes place in what is essentially New York city, and I wouldn't think that many New Yorkers own bolt action hunting rifles. If the baddies bought the guns specifically for this event (which the glimpse at Riddler's computer implies since they are asking things like "what caliber"), then they definitely wouldn't pick scoped rifles. You can accurately use iron sights on an AR15 at 100m easily.
I believe we see about 8 guys with these rifles all at once, but once batman jumps in and starts getting peppered with bullets, only 1-2 rifles remain and everyone else suddenly has more effective weapons not only for batman, but their original target too. Movies need that "assassination are done with a single shot" thing, but if all 8 guys just opened up with those automatic weapons, the mayor 100% would be dead.
@@tannerchaffin9235 bit late to this, but in the confession vid, theres the chat talking about where to get supplies for the final act, and it very much reads like most of the people there werent familiar with bombs or guns, but they just want to help the riddler. it isnt super easy to see in that section but the semi auto guys are mixed in with the guys with traditional hunting weapons. Most of the guys that show up just got weapons. Its why the guy with the shotgun takes so long to reload.
They had a lot of time to set up, they weren’t exactly in a hurry
Okay so Fringy says "btw we forgot to mention Gotham is below sea level, the big scary endgame for Riddler is to blow up the barriers and flood Gotham" and they just move on... but I was bothered by that in the theatre, and I don't know if I just missed the first mention of Gotham being below sea level, or if that really is just information dropped right in the third act.
I think it is really just information dropped in the third act. I can't recall any other info on that sooner than that.
@@egomania2792 Yeah, would've been nice if that little factoid was mentioned or shown even one other time before it comes into play later. Like how Batman Begins establishes the monorail thing early so it's not just "Oh yeah, Ra's is going to execute his plan using this rail system you never knew existed until now". And in that movie's case, it's even symbolic, because the train is the Wayne family's own contribution to the city, now being used negatively.
Seems like an easy throwaway line too. Have one of the mayoral candidates mention the upkeep of the seawalls being an issue. Would take 2 seconds, and from there you can put in as much worldbuilding as you want
They do mention it in the first act of the movie.
@@badbadgr5498 They exactly did this in the movie, i guess u werent paying attention.
If Selina is Falcone's daughter and he's considered to be one of the rich white men, then she's at least half white. This just makes that one line even more out of place.
Not a fan of the line, but Falcone being Selina's father probably only adds to her hatred of "privileged, white men."
It'd be different if she loved her father and considered him to be a important part of who she is. As-is, she literally tries to kill him.
You didn't think this through did you. Not only does she have any benefits of being his daughter, you do know that slave owners had children with slaves right?
@@Nethseaar I think that's a fair point. Either way, we can agree the line was bad and unnecessary. It's probably better that they had it clunkily thrown in instead of trying to clarify it, if they had to include it at all.
@@flannelmcmannel I mean I feel ppl here just don't like the message but it's in character for her to say.
@@za-ir5ni
I think you ment to type "she didn't have any benefits"
Also, who had any benefits from slavery in this day and age aside from a handful of families that managed not to squander their profits from that time?
I can’t believe Batman didn’t think to check the angle where the photos were taken
Exactly, detective work 101
literaly one of the first things you do in one of batman games is to establish where did the bullet come from based on an angle between where it hit and where it came through the window
I'm sure it must be hard to write a mystery for the "world's greatest detective". But writing these stories is always hard, so it's not really an excuse.
You are completely right about the angle thing. If they wanted to take the Batman detective route, they should have shown him taking precautions like this one, to ensure we can't acuse him of being bad at it. It should just be that the Riddler always goes a step beyond to cover up his tracks.
You can’t be this stupid…
@@denistannenberg you do realize when Batman checked the sniper in that building he got nothing but a message from the Joker. There was no further info he got from that. He just wanted to know WHO it was. Same with Deadshot bullet
Here, he KNOWS it was Riddler, there’d be nothing else to gather from it.
Jeeves is from the Jeeves stories by P.G Wodehouse. He's a valet, not a butler, though. A valet (pronounced val-et, not val-ay) serves one person and a butler serves a household. I haven't read the stories, but I do have the DVDs of the TV series Jeeves and Wooster; it stars Stephen Fry as Jeeves and Hugh Laurie as Wooster.
Good to know about the pronunciation of valet. I've been watching Downton Abbey and was confused by the pronunciation of valet. I had only ever heard val-lay, as in a car parker/driver.
Oh so a valeT in the _Downton Abbey_ sense of the word
@@samwallaceart288 Never watched the show, but yes.
@@andrewconrad2859 I was in the same boat, familiar with val-ay drivers, but had never heard of val-ets till Jeeves and Wooster.
Good to see another member of the toxic brood who knows Jeeves and Wooster
This is a 6/10 movie released in a era of 3/10 movies
Shit taste spottted
@@mrmxyzptlk8906 he isn't wrong lmao
@@rSADGE he is… he’s conflating an amazing film for an above average film amongst trash. Amazing films still exist. And this is one of them.
It has the acclaim and success to back it up. It has way more acclaim than either of the Burton film. and 2 of the Nolan films. It’s an amazing movie.
This guy and yourself are wrong. You have garbage taste.
@@mrmxyzptlk8906 Go watch se7en this movie is capeshit se7en stealing every scene.
Bro, this is spot on. People are overhyping this movie like crazy, mainly because of the great visuals and sound. But writing wise, the movie is really average at best.
I could be wrong about this, but I believe there is a line in the film that could at least slightly address the convenient nature of Bruce meeting Selina in his meeting with Penguin.
When Selina is talking to Bruce about the club within the club at Iceberg Lounge, she mentions that she sees all the powerful people come in. Therefore, I believe it could be reasonable to infer that she would have seen Batman come in to the club. This may have prompted her to see why Batman was in the club, which would have led her to buy the drops from Penguin while he was talking to Batman. At this point in the film, there is news about Mitchell’s death and she is also aware that Mitchell has some dealings with Annika. She knows at this point that Mitchell has Annika’s passport and therefore, she could be trying to see what information Batman is getting from Penguin as she has a personal stake in the controversy with Mitchell due to Annika’s involvement.
It is certainly convenient that Bruce sees Selina at just the right time. This also wouldn’t address the convenience of her wearing the exact boots he needs to see. However, I believe the writing for this meetup is slightly less convenient than it may seem upon further inspection.
I think quibbling over something like this being a "convenience" and therefore saying it's bad writing is really dumb.
@@za-ir5ni You don't think relying on crazy coincidences to progress a story is bad writing?
@@za-ir5ni It's called anecdotal writing, and it's sometimes referred to as "this happens, and then this happens, and then...". If you're familiar with Mauler's content, he talks about this writing issue in his most recent video, A Critique of Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Part 4. I don't believe Mauler uses the technical term of anecdotal writing, but it's justifiably considered bad writing.
@@matthewcronshaw9331 it isn’t really that crazy of a coincidence, though. Penguin was probably getting drinks and drugs delivered in and out of that room all night, and Selina was a bartender
@@jakesimpson3373 I haven't actually seen the movie, so I have no way of knowing/arguing how convenient it was. I'm just questioning the other person whether they believe plot conveniences are an example of bad writing.
“Thugs aren’t smart” wtf are thugs like a different species in the DC universe? Does Batman rely on this fact during combat? I have so many questions
Dude your totally overthinking it.......their dumb for even doing this in the first job........being payed so little for so much risk......thats not hard to understand.
@@Replica_Films2000 *youre
*they’re
*paid
Why the hell do you use so many periods for no reason?
thugs are only 2/5ths of a person. which is more than orphans, but still
Ever played the Arkham games? They're dumb as bricks.
"Is it a Coincidence that Bruce Wayne and Batman is the same person" - Fringy 2022
A quote that would be in a video essay lol.(I know there's more to this, just funny out of context)
4:21:00
The annoyed expression on Fringy's avatar fit perfectly so many times during this stream. Especially at the 7-hour mark.
I had a similar situation too where a couple teen girl behind us kept giggling at parts that definitely weren’t comedic. I was more so confused rather than annoyed
Had a party of guys next to me that'd chuckle like "hehe, NICE." from time to time but they were quiet about it so it was fine.
Good chance they were talking about how hot Robert Pattinson is
As someone who was apart of a group of women who openly laughed in the theater during this film, I can tell you that it's a way to defuse tension and communicate disbelief/ridicule to a group without verbal speech.
For example, when something occurs in a film that you believe to be so egregiously bad or simply ridiculous, you can scoff or produce a soft laugh to effectively communicate these feelings with others, nonverbally, to the effect of checking the thoughts and feelings of others. If someone agrees with your thoughts or feelings towards this moment, they will respond in kind with either an agreeing laugh or scoff, thus creating a moment of silent communication and group bonding/reassurance.
The problem others find in this is how loud this nonverbal communication can become when it is a larger group. Laughter can easily ramp up due to how it can add on to itself. For example, say you and a friend are watching a comedy. The comedian tells a story that produces laughter from both of you, but while laughing at the story, your friend falls out of his chair, causing both you and your friend to laugh louder in response. This reaction is simply inherent to the way this emotional response functions.
Had a group of teens laugh after Riddler said "you came"
Thought that was funny lol
Weren't Selina's shoes in the nightclub just part of her work uniform? Thats the impression I got. Doesn't she wear them again in the club later? She's poor so maybe she only has one pair of shoes good enough to wear in the club?
Selina, Selina, Selina..
That's my name, don't wear it out. :D
She should sell some of her professional thief gear to afford more footwear.
Just go Barefoot, problem solved
Poor people'll invest their money in nice clothing. People with no furniture but mountains of shoes is the norm, not the exception.
If it’s part of her work uniform, then she wouldn’t have to pay for it…but who the fucks knows Club Penguin dress code?
When they mentioned Bruce's mask being made out of magic Bat-leather, I liked to imagine Bruce snatching bats out of the air and sewing them all together into a helmet for him.
A vigilante with a suit made of living bats stitched together would have a far greater fear effect on Gothams criminals
That’s awful lmao
@1:26:00 ish. Alfred and the Circus. In Le Carres spy novels, his version of MI6 is called the Circus. It's a hard nod to some of the most prolific spy fiction ever written. Most ppl know The Spy Who Came in From the Cold and Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.
I'm guessing. But it a huge coincidence if it isn't
You’re right. I don’t think they meant he was a lion tamer.
I really want to see EFAP view Adam West's run as the Bright Knight. If not the '66 movie, just the first 2 episodes (which is, of course, a 2 parter) with the villain being the Riddler, mind you.
If vengeance didn't see selina showing up at the penguins club which led him to other clues, this movie would have been melted 100%
I reckon he would’ve found another way around it even if she didn’t turn up. But I wouldn’t consider this a flaw in the movie. I don’t know if you do, I’m just making an assumption.
@@Nameless-pt6oj one way would've been bruce using his technology in the batcave and with his detective skills would've gathered some info about falcone's background which would've led him to selina eventually since she was his lost daughter
That's not a relevant criticism if it even is trying to be
"If the detective character wasn't observant and found a new lead, this movie would have melted" homie what
CinemaSins tier criticism has rotted your brain
@@bepisboy291 It's the fact that it was an extreme coincidence that the lead was there to be found that's the problem. Not that Batman is observant.
Rags in the beginning yelling “DOESNT KNOW HOW TO FKING COUNT” made me roll 😂😂
Batman not killing is a core element to his character for recent iterations for it can lead to interesting story telling, exposing his humanity, and showing his resolve to never let what happen to him ever happen to anyone. Makes him someone to root for when put on the spot to kill. Even if he is justified to kill, he shouldn't because he believes the action itself would break him since he is somewhat a troubled person. Who knows how far he would go if he would be okay with killing people. He is certainly scared of that. Just watch the animated series and the Under the red hood movie. It delves into that a bit more
This movie justifies it better than any other it feels like the policece would literally beat him to death if they caught him killing someone
The No Kill rule is also often seen as a flaw he has by many characters in universe. It’s not like there saying it’s 100% right, it’s what Bruce “believes” is right. It tracks from a character perspective
A bad punch can kill any of those thugs. Wonder how he would react.
@@canaldecasta That's something I was thinking about some time ago. Let's say he breaks some guy's spine and the guy consequently wouldn't be able to feel anything below neck or waist for the rest of his life. The guy then kills himself, because he thinks that living like that is worst than death. Even tho Batman didn't kill the guy directly, his brutality has contributed to the guy's death.
Imagine that he beats someone so hard that he needs to be in hospital, but ambulance don't reach there in time and the guy who has....I don't know, a punctured lung or something, dies from the wounds. Sure...Batman didn't want to kill him and he was alive when he left the guy there, but the guy consequently died from the beating.
Batman's brutality, again, would lead to the death of the people he have beaten.
Even if the guy doesn't die and doesn't commit suicide, we have to ask was the application of force necessary. If a police officer use excessive amount of force to stop a criminal or a suspect, the officer can suffer legal consequences. But Batman seems to be outside of that.
That's one of the reason why I think that no kill rule needs to also include no brutality or excessive violence, which then creates some issues.
@@canaldecasta that idea alone could make for a interesting batman story
I almost wonder if the exploding collar was supposed to be explode more like the ones in Battle Royale but the studio had them change it for the PG-13 rating
I dont think you guys mentioned this but I also thought it was really convenient that the riddler didn't show up in person to kill Bruce Wayne when everyone else he killed himself. He had access to the mayors house, it is hard for me to imagine he couldn't break into Bruce's or at least wouldn't try.
You think breaking into a mansion is the same thing as breaking into the other victims' houses? Damn, do you guys ever think before you make a dumb complaint to try to bring up a "convenience". Also his method would have been different anyways because Bruce wasn't the same kind of target and his intention was to blow him up. Also, how the fuck would it be a convenience if the Riddler breaking into Bruce's place would have ended in failure?
@@za-ir5ni I think it would be assumed that the mayor would have more security than some rich reclusive guy, so why would he not do it? Also he has no idea when that package will actually get to Bruce so he was pretty much just hoping the timing worked out. It wouldn't have been a convenience if he tried to break in and it didn't work out because it would have been the same thing he did to the other people he killed. It would have made sense for him to try to kill bruce in person and fail because he didnt know he was batman. He waited for the DA guy in his car and I don't think we saw how he caught the other ones but all of them were in person since he tortured and recorded it. So just saying "he wants to blow Bruce up" doesn't explain the difference in methods.
@@leetmeathead Breaking into a billionaire's skyscraper penthouse when you're a poor loser isn't that easy. For one he'd struggle to get past the doorman, if he managed to get in the lobby there's no way he'd be allowed to use the elevators. Bruce Wayne being a reclusive means he's not out in public often enough to be a targeted.
The riddler or at least the movie was hinting towards the explosion with the left cards
*letter
1:23:00 Andy Serkis was an awesome Alfred! He was one of the biggest strengths and weaknesses in this movie though. While his performance was amazing and really captured the essence of the character he was (imo) criminally underutilized. In pretty much every scene where Batman’s out on patrol we should have heard Alfred in an ear piece communicating with him. Alfred is the original “guy in the chair” and this movie didn’t really capture that at all!
I don't like this version of The Riddler. I almost did. I thought he was better and more interesting than I expected or the majority of the movie. But I think he's ruined by the climaxes and explanations. Why the fuck would he think that he and Batman are on the same side? Why is he leaving riddles for Batman? Why does he think the cops will cooperate with him and invite Batman in - and if that's expected, why would Riddler think they're on the same side, when the cops and Batman are cooperating? Why wasn't there any evidence that Riddler and his online friends liked Batman when they were discovered?
I'm very open to understanding things that I didn't understand in this movie if there are things to understand, but I don't think the ends justify the means.
Was there anything that I missed that introduced the idea at all that Gotham is below sea level and protected by sea walls at any point before pulling up the rug? I hope I missed something, but I don't think I did and don't think EFAP mentioned it earlier or covered it enough when it was brought up. It's just "third act escalation for nough reason" when the rest of the movie felt like there was a clear purpose to the Riddler's killings and goals. The flooding seemed out of nowhere because they felt like they didn't have a big city-saving set piece and "you need one in a superhero movie." Please explain to me why I'm wrong and be correct about it.
For a lot of the movie, I was under the impression that Riddler was leaving clues for the dual purpose of proving that he's smarter than the police and as a direct challenge to Batman. That's what his motive typically is, that makes more sense as a motive to involve Batman or riddles at all in his murder spree, and it makes a lot more sense than what's presented in this movie by the end. Riddler is more compelling if he's so confident in his own intellect and also has extreme OCD that he needs to challenge someone to stop him. He made a lot more sense up until his confession scene. That retroactively ruined everything he did prior. It's not just a preference thing. It's a this doesn't make sense thing, unless someone can prove to me that it does.
You can fix the problem with the stuff under the carpet with a single throwaway line from Riddler about, “Sweeping the rest under the rug.”
I found it weird when Batman followed Selina that her gadgets where all on a wall that could be seen through a window AND neither of them closed any windows at night. The second point is especially strange when you think that Selina's friend would probably be concerned about being found right now.
I mean, when people see a tight leather outfit and a bullwhip hung up near the bedroom, they might not automatically think Cat Burglar.....
But I get your point.
@@rindoubaka1574 there was a lot more there than just the whip. There was an *entire wall* of stuff that a person would not typically have.
@@Destractoid Fair enough, it was just an excuse for me to make an unsavoury joke.
somebody has to say it:
this folks in the EFAP chats are ducking funny and ingenious- following the chat is a real treat.
Some are unrincally acting like the riddler goons.
Huzzah to that.
An extremely well made film that made me feel precisely nothing emotionally. No sadness. No suspense. No Fear. No anticipation. No sympathy. No anger. No excitement. No relief. No nothing.
I disagree😁
@@jcore0981 As in you don't think it was well made? Or as in you do think that it made me feel more something emotionally?
@@scottk1525 No I just was basically saying it made me feel emotions.
@@jcore0981 Notice how that doesn't require disagreeing with me. Basically what I'm saying is that this movie was objectively great. But subjectively, it didn't do anything for me.
@@scottk1525 I would not go as far as great. It's a great Batman movie. But it definitely is pretty tismy
"Alfred Wayne" does sound remarkably good to me.
There's so much here I can't recall understanding when watching the film for the first time. I'll need to rewatch it.
I though the Riddler knew Bruce was Batman since the beginning and built his whole plan around that.
Would have made more sense and made for a better villain tbh. You still could have ended the movie with Riddler knowing Batman's identiy, but refusing to tell anyone, out of some code of 'honor', because he doesn't like to spoil riddles.
Just a reminder to efap
The batman > No way home
Absolutely, this film washes NWH. These guys are nuts.
@Wavid I mean they are, trust me.
We can discuss them if you want. But their critiques about Riddlers character, his plan etc.
Also they are removing all suspension of disbelief going as far to say Gun physics aren’t entirely accurate and Batman going through glass for a cool shot and entrance kills people below when Batman has done that for decades.
Trust me, there’s a reason this film is beloved. If it was some nonsensical film that didn’t make sense. No one would like it or praise it to this extent. They’d call it enjoyable and that’s it. This film has next level praise for a reason.
@Wavid ok, so you’re criticizing all of Batman… that’s what Batman has always done… so it’s an irrelevant criticism.
You’re not a robot dude. It’s called suspension of disbelief, people can accept some things in a superhero film. That’s one of them. A cool entrance isn’t gonna be realistic. Doesn’t have to be either.
So yea unless you’re 10 years old, it’s a dogshit criticism that’s irrelevant and means nothing.
@Wavid you can’t… none of what they said is valid. If you have a critique. By all means I’ll hear you out. But this film is air tight. Phenomenal script.
Next you’ll tell me you can critique The Shining or Godfather next💀 but eh let’s see what you have
@Wavid you gotta Insta? Honestly just give me your Insta and let’s have a talk. Make it go much quicker.
I think the set up for the car chase scene was strange. Batman and Co were being fired upon. Penguin moved in to finish them off and then realised Batman was not on the floor where he thought he would be. Then Batman started revving the engine. What is Batman’s plan here? To rev the engine while cat woman and Gordan are killed? Is he going to run the gangsters over and then arrest their mangled corpses? It should have been something like: bullets sprayed at Batman and Co, who are forced to take cover. Perhaps Gordan returns fire, which leads the penguin to rethink having a gun fight. Penguin gets in his car to drive away. Damn he has got away. Batman reveals his car and jumps in to pursue.
When my friend and I saw it, we had assumed the engine stalled out when he first fired it up
Your set up is beyond brain dead, maybe pay attention to the film next time.
@@25meip I had the same reaction, it was odd.
Rags should know the "pool's closed" is from Habbo Hotel and not Club Penguin.
Batman: "The Riddler's working with the Moody Blues."
Instant 10/10.
Oh the misery! We live in a society!
Spare the simpathy, we live in a
*SOCIETY!*
This has got to be one of the best EFAPs I've watched in a while, which is saying something since you guys usually set the bar high anyways, thanks ya massive's.
2:08:00 why is the cop not noticing the safe considered lucky? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but just from memory I thought that this was where the mayor was left correct? That place was a mess, and if the cop or whoever it was was glancing in a crime scene I don't see how an open safe would be too suspicious unless they had memorized what and where everything was beforehand (which seems very unlikely). And even if it was one of the mayor's guards or one of his corrupt cops, I don't see why the mayor would feel the need to tell that person about the hidden safe. It seems like that would be the one thing that he would want nobody to know about.
Edit: Rag's is a good doggo, and more or less accounted for what I said.
It felt lucky to me cause of the bag and tools conveniently placed on the floor next to the safe. I honestly just thought that there was a wall or something in the middle of the room for art and other decor.
I mean, Batman charging into the Iceberg Lounge guns blazing isn't that out of character. It's his way of reminding the criminals that he's more than a "sneak attack" kind of guy, that he can take them on face to face no problem as well (which becomes especially important when having to face more experienced criminals, that are not easily intimidated, as was the case in this scene).
It happens a lot in the comics as well; he will get into a club looking for the owner to ask him about something, the security will get cocky and say "we ain't afraid of you, punk" and shit will ensue. So yeah, I personally had no problem with that. :)
It also highlighted one of my favorite subtle aspects of the movie, namely that Batman is still learning. He goes to the club three times and each time he enters differently. Which might be how Matches Malone develops, now that Batman knows he can get into shady places in easier ways. Just really really great stuff.
@@TunezCottage THANK YOU. I've been pointing out to others how the methodology of this "uncharacteristic" Batman transforms over the course of the movie, and his infiltration of the Iceberg Lounge/44 Below is a great example.
Surely this deserves a higher rating than No Way Home? NWH had a completely nonsensical, contrived, character assassinating plot to set everything up. While this film did not suffer anything that major.
Not to say that NWH didn't have amazing character work, but the plot was a complete mess from top to bottom. The mechanics were completely borked.
Whereas this film was more flawed in regards to some plot armor moments. But that wasn't constant or perennial throughout.
The only two sequences I felt were a little egregious in the plot armor were the car chase and the final battle with Riddler's followers. Batman succeeded pretty reliably through contrivances during those.
But that feels less fundamentally probelamatic than the entire set up and plot being nonsense.
How did they score it?
@@Wlof25 6 to 7 out of ten among every host.
Yeah, it should probably rate higher, but there might be some marvel bias here.
Oh hey, just watching the Suicide Squad gag reel and one of the scenes that was obviously cut was one of the analysts talking about how they'd asked if Weasel can swim. So they were aware of it, but cut it out.
Just interesting.
When they are talking about a more grounded way to do the signal they said shine it on a building but then you'd have to hope Batman can see that particular side of the building
No shite
@@scottf5791 thanks? Wtf
@@emuman09 it took you 5 months to reply to this comment? Who cares what I said lol
@@scottf5791 who cares how long it took. Look I took longer now. Piss off
The last part of Riddler's plan shouldn't have happened. The only reason it did was to have a final big action scene. The "I'm Vengance" scene could've been replaced by having the Riddler saying it or maybe The Riddler's community started to use it as a slogan "We're Vengance" and that made Batman realize. Cause The riddler's motivation up to this point is killing the corrupt rich and revealing their lies so idk why he would kill everyone
And there's some other flaws to that I want to talk about:
That time bomb scene is stupid, Batman knows that the bomb is gonna explode but didn't move away or cover his face in advance. Instead he got knocked out. And a pretty big plot hole is gonna happen after this. Instead of unmasking Batman, the police decided to bring him to the police station? For what? Unmasking him isn't just for knowing his identity, is to check if Batman's got a head trauma. After Batman was unconscious, the next logical step for the police is to unmask him and send him to the hospital. That entire thing happened just because Matt Reeves wants to show Batman flying
That chase scene with the Penguin. Batman chase Penguin through the highway and it resulted in trucks exploding, cars crashing, and people dying. Batman should've known that a high speed car chase would've resulted in someone crashing and dying. He could've avoided it by crashing the Penguin's car before he got in it or before he drove off or just capture Penguin later. He already know Penguin is at the Iceberg Lounge and could've easily just interrogate or capture him there. People died in the car crash because of Batman
And Catwoman's relationship with Batman is not well developed. She and Batman worked together and talk a couple of times and in the next scene they're kissing. It doesn't feel earned.
That's the problem with this movie. It wants to do cool stuff but doesn't have a well thought out reason for why the cool stuff happens.
I can't help but notice that just after this was uploaded warner bros decided to release the trailer for DC League of Super-Pets with Keanu Reeves as Batman.
I think the point of batman showing up to the club is to juxtapose when he does it as Bruce Wayne and gets in without issue. I really liked how the film was telling us that Bruce was having trouble separating his identities.
4:33:36
But it's not just Falcone's word. Falcone's story lines up really well with The Riddler's story, and The Riddler has been correct about everything up to this point. Then you throw in how Thomas had helped Falcone, and Bruce being too young to have been able to say for 100% certainty that his father never dealt with the mob, it makes perfect sense that he would give credence to the story.
39:00 what happened to Rag's's's, is exactly what happened to me. This dude was snoring from the beginning so I had to tap him and ask him if he was alright... He said sorry for being loud. I told him we can only hear the snoring and not the movie. But I did it in a kind manner. He was cool with it, and he stopped sleeping the rest of the movie.
in defense of the dark hallway machine gun spark scene, if you look, the weapons they're firing are not rifles, but what appear to be mp5s and mp5ks, 9mm submachine guns with short barrels, effectively automatic pistols. Further, the darkness combined with the fear combined with the the recoil of firing its more believable than you'd think.
However, the most damning firearms scene is by far the battle on the rafters, where batman is struck with what appear to be ruger american rifles, likely chambered in .308 Winchester, out of long barrels at close range, which should kill him within the first 2-3 successful shots on his armor (i believe they use bolt action rifles to specifically limit how fast the bad guys can shoot at him, which is a little lame/cheating from a writing perspective).
A common misconception from people is that the shotgun blast should kill him, however this isn't as likely in reality. 12 gauge buckshot does not have the penetrative power to go through rifle rated armor plates, and even some modern handgun rated soft armor, however the force generated at close range on his armor should knock him back, perhaps not as extremely as we so though.
the ambush scene where batman falls to the ground and teleports is a middle ground, all of the mobsters firing at batman use either pistols or submachine guns which would be unlikely to penetrate. a lot of people seem to misunderstand how firearms and armor interact; besides a round penetrating the armor the second greatest risk is being hit by fragmentation as rounds spall on impact, which is why a lot of modern body armor is designed to absorb and catch as many fragments as possible in addition to stopping the rounds. even if they miss the small target of his jaw or head or choose to aim center mass, and even if batman can effectively stop the rounds it seems like enough to fragment and hit either a less protected area of his suit or face. it also seems wierd that not once in this movie does batman suffer a gunshot wound, not even to his legs or arms which are less armored than his torso.
because of the nature of the scenes taking place in close quarters and/or in dark environments i dont think this is as bad as mando, but if mando is 9/10 to 10/10 plot armor, batman should get at least a 6/10 or 7/10
Someone with a brain, nice. Yea Batman is known for plot armor but it’s not to some ridiculous extent here. What he goes through is fair.
I'd probably disagree with the first scene in the hallway, but I'd need to count how many shots actually hit the armor. I also can't remember whether or not he staggers at all from the shots, but he definitely would, even with pistol caliber rounds. I understand how they wouldn't be able to directly target his face though since the only light came from the muzzle flashes.
I also didn't like the bolt action rifles at the end, especially because they later have automatic weapons in the same location. AR-15s would've made much more sense to take out the mayor too simply because you have more rounds to make your escape from the police, if that is their goal.
@@Djhiphop1000000000 It kind of is ridiculous though. If he's wearing flexible armor made of Kevlar and Ceramic plates than the bullet resistance is incredibly limited. The amount of shots he takes is absurd, even if it's mostly smaller rounds like 9mm a ceramic plate in a Kevlar carrier can only withstand so many shots (especially if any of them land in the same general area).
Now if he is wearing Steel plates, that makes the amount of shots he takes more believable as thick steel plates are indeed incredibly durable. The problem with Steel plates though is that they are heavy and not flexible at all, hence why the military generally doesn't use them. If he's covered from head to toe in thick steel plates than his range of movement and speed is going to be restricted which I don't see any evidence of. Also, no way in hell that Shotgun shell at the end would do anything to a steel plate.
And then you have the two most egregious examples of plot armor in the movie. Batman tanks a bomb at point blank range (for some reason, still not sure why). Armor isn't going to help you there especially when your chin is completely exposed to shrapnel. Also, the scene where he glides down to the bus and then deploys a parachute (again, not sure why he does this) which gets caught in a stone bridge that he then gets slammed into headfirst. That would more than likely take his head off.
And btw, I overall enjoyed the movie. But I'm also not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend it's perfect.
"BENT!"
Thanks Jay. Much appreciated.
1:54:22 There have actually been cases where a man has been shot through a silk kerchief and suffered a mortal wound, without piercing the silk. Unless the threads are broken when the bullet squashes the fabric against the armour, the cape could survive without immediately failing.
You mean that the bullet pulls the silk into the wound? The silk is a strong material, but I can't understand how would that work.
@@pirig-gal That's exactly what happened - look up Dr. George E. Goodfellow if you're interested in the specifics.
@@alexholker1309 Thank you. Another interesing bit of knowledge for my brain.
Interestingly, the first bulletproof vests were invented by a Polish immigrant in Chicago, and they were made from multiple layers of silk.
@Alex Hokler
Nifty fact!
Although, remember that Batman had also just been through an explosion. I think it a stretch to say that the wingsuit would have been in pristine condition.
the wayne murder is the inciting incident which allows for the conspiracy to come into being, which in turn creates the riddler. the wayne murder is also the inciting incident that caused batman to come into being, which also contributes to the riddlers creation. thus, batman being bruce wayne and bruce wayne being connected to the conspiracy is not a contrivance. it is cause and effect stemming from the wayne murders.
The biggest plothole is why didnt batman investigate his parents death
I am currently working on an in depth video about The Batman and rewatching both the film and this episode discussing it, I have found so many major plot holes and character inconsistencies that utterly break this movie. I can’t wait to put it out, hope you guys will give it a watch when I’m finished.
"It falls of exponentiall, it's the inverse square law." Peak numeracy.
people confuse anything that "more than linear" as Exponential.
@@jamesknapp64 I've heard exponential be used for lots of linear processes though, as well as for comparisons between two data points which could obviously fit almost any function.
For most people big number = exponential apparently. I think this is comes from _science_ content becoming popular online, where the term is used correctly but without explaining when it is applicable.
What makes this example stand out to me is that he actually knows the true formula. Or at least he mentions it.
38:28
3:34:50 the entire discussion on the ramp makes me laugh
the thing too about the ramp forming is that it happened after Batman turned on the boost, so it's not like he knew the ramp was already there. so with that, im going to headcanon the implication that the batmobile would have been able to boost bulldoze through all the vehicle truck pileage if the ramp did not magically form haha. which i think Batman would see the same intimidating effect being had where he just continues on straight through the carnage even if he is still on the ground driving through it.
Just saw it again and you do see the ramp truck thing for a few seconds before it gets into the convenient position for the batmobile. So not quite appears out of nowhere but probably should have been shown better.
4:23:45 on the Spider-Man point: all those villains happening to be in the same city as Spider-Man has less to do with Peter and more to do with OsCorp, which is the common denominator not only to said villains, but to Peter being Spider-Man in the first place.
I didn’t see the whole stream but just in case this question wasn’t asked. Was “The Batman.” Good flying RAT?
But what makes good RAT? That is the question.
@@dyllwill Well, flying, for one.
@@dyllwill Not eating faces is also a good indication
Funny you should bring up the dilemma of a riddle having more than one answer. In the Gotham show, Riddler gets super pissed because Lucius Fox doesn’t give the right answer to one of his riddles. The answer still fits the question, but it’s just not the one the Riddler wants. Fox fails Riddler’s test to become his worthy adversary. So we’re left to conclude that no one will fill that role until Batman enters the picture.
I will just copy my reply from unlisted.
This stream might be one of the few times that I'm not aligning with EFAP a bit (which is ok, as Mauler once said) when it comes to the movie critique, and I'd say that they seem to be harsher on the movie than usual. No way Batman (2022) is 5/10, the same rating you've given Squid Game when the B plot in that series was insanely horrible and contrived to the limit. Given everything positive compared to negative in Batman (2022), it sits somewhere around 7/10.
I came back to the 4th hour of the stream after I finished the movie in the cinema, so I will need to rewatch the stream to catch the rest of the critique.
There were some fair points - the Bat-Signal being on the unguarded building, which is weird, and the unclear phone situation, but the Riddler's plan ultimately made sense. He was insane BUT only in his methods and not insane as per the usual EFAP definition of (insane = every action is handwaved by the plot).
I'm willing to hear more criticisms that I've missed and discuss the movie more with the other members of the EFAP community.
I completely agree with you on the rating the batman for me is a strong 7
Now rewatching it on digital, I'd bring it down from a 7 to a 5 lol
If you're a criminal in Gotham, would you want to track down the source of the Bat Signal....a place the Batman is very likely to be? I don't mind it being unguarded. It's a little silly but doesn't break the story.
The Riddlers social media tactics were kinda weirdly written, for me... I think they describe it as "he's been posting all kinda things online and he's got like 500 followers" and that his last video has a bunch of views but its password protected.. So did he give out this password to specific viewers he trusted (which.. idk bout that) or they all figured out the password before gcpd?
Yeah Efap boys are biased about batman. They are too deep into marvel-iness. I agree that it's a 7/10. I have watched the movie twice. Almost every single thing made sense and the Riddler endgame was also on point. I personally think the last 15 minutes could've been done in 3. And that joker/two face cameo felt out of place and cringe. All in all this was a valid and exciting take on Batman that was worth the wait. Felt like batman was actually menacing.
@@archstanton9073 Some powerful gang may one day try to get rid of Bats using the fake signal, just to lure him into the trap. I think that's a possibility given his reputation and being a general pain in the bottom to the general evildoer.
2:17:00 what is this reaction from Rags? 🐧🐧🐧 xD
Fringy : she goes..
Rags : Fringy, it took me this long, Fringy!
1:23:56 Jeeves is a valet, though he does occasionally buttle.
The reason why “I am the shadows” isn’t edgy when used in this film is because we are immediately shown well filmed and well written proof of this line. He isn’t just some edgy character stating that he’s the shadows. He contextualizes this by referencing that bat signal and how “it’s not only a call but a warning to the criminals of Gotham.”
He quite literally is the shadows of Gotham. To criminals he is always there, waiting and watching from the darkness.
It isn’t edgy because we are both shown and told.
You say that, but it is kind of edgy though. If anything I felt like the visuals and context made the line kind of redundant but that might just be me.
I'd say it's earned edginess
About the Question if it is a coinsidence that Bruce Wayne is Batman:
In this movie? No. I think both are in effect symptomes of the same Problem.
Because Gotham is such a social climate and culture that allows a Conspiracy like the one we deal with in this movie to happen was also reason why the Wayne Murder took place.
Also the Waynes Money is relevant for the Conspiracy due to the Renewal Program. And those Riches allow Bruce to be Batman - since ths is what allows him to have his equipment and it led to the Waynes having Alfred as a Butler who, as this Film implies, has taught him to fight and is also helping out.
So no the elements that made the conspiracy possible are the same Elements that led to Bruce becoming the Batman. I would not call that a coincidense.
I wonder how much Lord of the Rings would change if Frodo and Sam had left a couple minutes earlier, since they wouldn't have run into Merry and Pippin.
4:10:27 Fringy "Just again, your regular reminder that racism is really stupid". I laughed and clapped at the same time. Love the way he delivered that.
Also, love hearing Meme in these videos, always enjoy his commentary.
If they had just removed the race part and instead had just said.
"Rich privileged assholes"
Then I guarentee you not a single person would have had a problem with it, but adding race in something that literally has nothing to with race is just weird. Like rich asian and black people exist, look at how much NBA stars or american rappers make..?
7:00:10 This reminds me so much of a classroom. Fringy being the substitute teacher who is patiently refusing to say anything until his students are quiet so he can move on. 😅
u rlly laughed and clapped at the same time
@@s-zz it would probably still be a problem because of the word privilege and rich. It would be better if she just said corrupt assholes or something. The problem is that because politics and social issues are shoehorned in movies it’s easy to get in the habit of looking for it when it may not be there.
@@s-zz it's not weird when you understand the environment where Matt Reeves, the director, comes from in Bad Robot. Who are notoriously known for a combatting white privilege memo that famously states there intent for there to be no White comfort. It's really disturbing stuff and lifted directly from New Left and critical theory talking points that have absolutely inundated the conversation. Woke is kind of new nomenclature for a process that has been going on a very long time. This is confusing for a lot of people because most are just getting exposed to it like I did after high school which prompted me to do a tremendous amount of research. Let's just say were in a whole hell of a lot of trouble because most people are incapable of realizing who is doing this and why. Basically everyone would have to reformat everything about their political theology and civic myths in their entirety and it's just way too late.