Machining a Turbine Disk on Tormach 1100MX + 4th Axis microARC!
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
- CNC Machining a 304 Stainless Steel Turbine Disk on the Tormach 1100MX and microARC 4th Axis.
Let's go in-depth on Fusion 360 CAM toolpaths, holding tolerances, and producing great surface finishes.
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Links for this video
Tormach microARC: bit.ly/2wOQlXG
Get Better Speeds & Feeds: provencut.com
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Reach us / CNC Info:
Download Fusion 360: www.dpbolvw.net/click-9255839...
Online Fusion 360 Training: bit.ly/LearnFusion360
Hands-On CNC Classes: www.nyccnc.com/events
SMW Products: saundersmachineworks.com/
CNC Resources: www.nyccnc.com 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH 
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I appreciate you guys showing the process to fix issues. Showing the novice maxhinist even the pros make mistakes, but dont get worked up over them. Thanks gang.
awesome vid! Thank you for showing all the details...good and bad...learning as you go. Great for us newbies to see that it isn't easy to get it right the first time, and how to adapt and overcome to make a SMW approved part. I also appreciate the comments from others to help learn steps to get to the next level!
Ive drilled tons of 304 stainless. A Good HSS drill bit I had got 150+ holes from one bit doing 5/8” with a 1/8”pilot bit going 1/2” deep.
Coolant is key. No carbide needed
I remember on a job is was on we had a skid made of 316 stainless square tubing for some bottled water machine we made for a customer. We are used to working with stainless, but we usually hire a local electrician to do the external wiring. And some times in rural areas this electricians are not used to working on industrial equipment, but just house installations. So i told him to put up a outlet on the frame of the skid and he said he would do it in the afternoon. The next day the outlet was hanging by some zip ties on the frame. I asked him why he had done that and he replied he had burned up all of his drill bits on the stainless steel....
Next time, as your first operation , manually cut the face of one end of the part perpendicular with outside diameter of the part. My dad worked as a tool and die maker for General Electric for 45 years. He taught me you can't finish Square if you don't start Square.
Directly machining the turbine disc arbor to size while being held in the 4th axis chuck would give you the best concentricity.
Problem is this is a nightmare to do in Fusion. There’s a reason they turn or pre-machine a lot of their 4th axis demos. The rotary option just added is a start but there’s no simultaneous roughing options and I’ve had some serious issues with reliable posts. It’ll simulate great in Fusion but throws out some super janky code.
@@mikemaluk FACT
Outstanding Job! Loved the video. I have been using proven cut for a few months now and absolutely love it.
I've been watching your vids off and on for a while now. Your tutorials are so good I now think I have the confidence to buy a CNC and have ago. I use Fusion already to model 3D prints so hope it's not too much of a jump to start doing some basic CNC.
Heaps of know-how/skill involved here! Well done
Good job! Nice to see these younger guy's taking to the cnc programming and machining! People use to be so worried about robots taking their job and as true as that might be at the same time someone has to program them.
Now make it out of Inconel 718!
Gday, awesome job Geoffrey, You really explained everything well, I’m sure John is very proud of you and your ability’s, take care, Matty
Aerospace parts are always fun to see!
Awesome job in this video!
Yes. Just... Yes. Thank you, guys. Proved an important point.
Great Video!!! Thanks for sharing
Really impressive for such a small machine. Tormach definitely punches up
Amazing job and great tutorial
Loved the video!
GOLD! Be Blessed and thanks for the info
Very nice! i like this kind of video!
Seeing the way you hulk smashed the part down raised alarms right away.. just little baby taps does the trick just fine.
Yeah! I was like, wait, .002 and a swing from behind the head?!?! Hell, I would have been using a tiny brass mallet to tap it in.
You are indeed a bunch of pretty good carpenters!
i think you are being funny. right?
fantastic
This is geeking.... 😉
Love it
"For a pretty reasonable cycle time of just 50 minutes."
I like this guys mindset.
On a 2HP BT30 machine that only costs $15,000 new.
You might want to try using a v block like setup for round stock so that you can keep the contact points consistent. Since the raw stock is inconsistent on the outside diameter as well as the saw cut face the round part on the round jaw will always have inconsistent contact points. Learned this from John Grimsmo.
Good move pulling out a second micrometer!
Just found your guises channel I’m blown away on how therapeutic this is thank you guys mad props looking forward to the Johnny five series
Oh man, I wish I could forget the last almost decade and rediscover NYCCNC! (That is now in Ohio, but whatever.)
There is so much great stuff and you can go back several years and watch how far they have come. It's a pretty inspirational journey if you look at the consistent growth and just overall passion that has been maintained.
You're in for a treat!
i Love this
The fourth end from the right. That's the right one.
Pretty cool I was looking how to make a steam turbine
Lol 😄
I would love to see this part done on the ST20Y
Or the UMC750
Great stuff. I would however have used the lathe for the first operations. If you turn some soft-jaws you can get almost perfect concentricity and parallelism between top and bottom surfaces. It's also WAY faster and cheaper. Also you would get great surface finish. Then machine the fins using the 4th axis like you did.
It would be so much faster and easier in a lathe. Especially seeing as they're just throwing it in a mill for the 4th stuff.
Especially with 15 minutes to "turn the od" that should be 5 seconds 🤣
I agree it would be much easier to do it in a lathe, however... it's invaluable to see this method, not everyone has access to lathes, and knowing as many methods as possible is paramount to mastering your craft ^.^
I think the whole point was to show that you can do some pretty amazing things with very limited tool/resourses in your garage and not with full access to an entire cnc shop. of course there are better ways to do it . but I think that wheels looks dam good.
High speed steel will last for a long time you just need to keep the surface speed around 40-50 and anywhere from .003 to .008 per rev
To get a good surface finish, consistent dimension, and a good square surface on those fins I would have used a ball endmill and ramped down.
Why not start with v blocks and a normal vice for machining most of the outside diameter and facing off one side as reference surfaces? I'm thinking the soft jaws would then have known orthogonal geometry to clamp and the top would be machined parallel with both the bottom of the jig and the back side of the work.
I might be a machining noob who's only ever touched hobby machines, but I've had nothing but positive experience aligning symmetric pieces by flipping them in a machined jig. What am I missing?
THe main advantage I can see is being able to do many more parts in a jobshop app with a fixture you can just slap it and go. But for a home gamer your method especially for one offs makes more sense in the long haul.
Sometimes I think you blokes are just showing off! But seriously nice work fellas, you get to machine some great stuff. Thanks for sharing.
In the gas turbine industry this was known as a blisk. Integrally machined dish and blades. Disks with separate blades was more common. They're blades not fins. Gas turbine blisks are usually made from even more challenging materials than stainless. Is this a real part for a steam turbine, water turbine, or is it just a demo part to show what the machine can do?
imagine the machinists that made these parts before DROs and Dial, and digital tools existed. They did this with standard micrometers, veneer scales, scales on hand-wheels and 40:1 indexing heads. They held a tolerance just as good. I worked with a fair amount of 304 stainless in the Navy, I do not consider it a particularly difficult material to work with.
Tormach doesn't hold the best tolerances anyway but I bet even with a good dro you can't compete in precision with the more precise CNC machines like Kern or Mori.
Oh, I checked out Proven cut and thanks to John's help, I'm a paying customer.
That said - if you had an existing super spacer 4th axis, is the microarc a good enough of an upgrade to warrant stepping up to it?
Your blade fins doesn’t have twist angle, right? So you can use 4axis, is so than 5axis is needed.
"...Then I incremented Z down another 0.005 for the 43rd test cut..." :-)
Super informative, Jeffrey, and listening to the logic behind it was stellar.
any chance you guys could share the f360 file ? I'd love to learn from this. I just received my microArc and slowly learning the 4 axis CAM - I truly enjoyed the previous example/tutorial
hss cobalt will hold up decently in 304.
Are you guys going to try cutting this in 718? (So you can stuff it at the end of a combustion chamber and light 'R UP :) )
I've cut 304/316 with my gen2 1100 but I never could find cutting tools that could cut power turbine geometry in 718 (on the 1100)
That said, the 1100 does great with diffusers, compressors, basically everything forward of the hot section (which incidentally is generally 7075).
At any rate, thanks for the content; always appreciate another way to see challenges met with solutions
Omg I want one. How much was the part to machine for the part + bits? And run time total? haha. Need to save for a metal 4axis. Or pray my CNC router can get an eventual 4thaxis to do a half decent job haha.
JOHN I'm having a hard time even finishing the vid with your new voice. NOT digging man we MISS YOU.
Instead of negative stock to leave, just turn off cutter compensation. Then the tool center follows the path.
Could you share how long it took the part to make?
Had you milled the outer diameter (and left some extra stock for "turning") in the first setup you probably would have not encountered the paralellism issue.
I‘d be interested to know how many hours went into the machining of this? Must have been a lot...
I Love the video, but a quick question about the use of the micrometer. I've learned to use the small knob on the end to measure. There is a mechanism in it that makes sure you always apply the same pressure/torque. But I see a couple of machinists who use it differently (you, abom, etc.)
Some micrometers have both the large and small parts driving through the ratchet mechanism. So you can turn with either and get reproducible results.
metric messurment is so much easier and make much more sense...
do you have a solid model of that part you can share so we can learn ?
thanks
When are we going to see the new twins?
Looks like part was out of square when machined on op 1. If you have access to a surface grinder, I would put it on a v block and grind one side and then put that ground side down in the vise and make that your op 2 side. To ensure parallelism without a doubt.
*even if stainless doesn’t like to get ground lol
✋.... Super +++
Have you guys considered a 4-jaw chuck (or maybe a 6-jaw) on the 4th axis? It should be a little easier to align your parts without having to tap around the part itself a whole bunch. A 4-jaw chuck would also give the ability to hold onto non-round parts or purposely offset from the central axis if that was needed for the machining ops.
I have this same rotary axis -- they don't have a 4 jaw chuck available for it and I haven't found a compatible one but it would be a great addition to the kit.
can you make a video on how to design this is fusion 360?
Out of interest, why didn't you use a lathe to create the round features from the stock? The mill is awesome and all but I could make this part on my £1000 lathe to the tolerances you mentioned.
Dear Sir, at 11:20 you are troubled by non-parallelism of your part. With the rough finished part firmly held to the floor of your vice, is you take a large end mill and shave a flat surface over your entire part, wouldn’t you end up with what you want - a perfectly parallel part? That is of course assuming that your vice floor surface is perpendicular to your spindle shaft.
$10 000 worth of machining, and the customer couldn't afford the extra buck for 316? What am I missing?
About $9000
Looked in both sites. Didn’t see a means to contact. Just thought I’d try here. Do you take orders to machine items? From anybody. If so how to contract w you. Just curious thank you.
I hope this part is just for a demo. No posititve drive like a key and a slip fit to the axle. Because the poor surface finish will be a problem with fatigue failure if running at high speeds over time. There is an awful lot of chatter on such short fins with that stout geometry. Keep learning though.
Check out a company called Flow Technologies making flow meters. I made all the gears old school manually. Deburred and balanced rotors for years. The only companies who could compete were positive displacement.
The angle on those vanes kind of makes me think that's either a very low pressure ratio compressor, or a stator from a compressor assembly. Or maybe it's for a steam turbine and I don't know what I'm talking about
It's for a small turbine engine, so close-ish!
@@AndrewBarth What sort of small turbine? Most gas turbines use more exotic materials than 300 series stainless steel.
A compressor stator is a stationary part directing the air flow between axial compressor stages. It's not going to be a bladed disk.
how much would it cost for that rotor?
I wouldn't dare to spin a hss reamer that size 1500rpm in 304 ss
Would be closer to 150 actually
It seemed fast to me too.
Give the new guy a break y'all
@Sheldon Robertson it helps if you're not the guy paying for tooling.
@@AlexMageethefirst or if you like to live on the edge. The edge of your carbide reamer. Lol.
Did you take down the "NASCAR Stewart-Haas" video? Never got to watch the whole thing
They had to take it down. They explained it in a recent video, I think it was the last Jonny 5 parts unboxing.
How the f did they make steam turbines before cnc?!
Graybeards with files!
Mold+forge it in parts and then a manual lathe+mill, Now mold+forge in parts and cnc lathe+ cnc mill
I know this is more rhetorical of a question, but lots of Manual balancing. And lots of it.
I think most involved machining the hubs and then brazing in the blades which were either milled in dedicated tracer machines or forged.
what was there first? milling machine, lathe or grinding machine?
$8,000 in shop time, CAD time, and test runs later...
That’s halfway to a 3 cavity casting mold in China 🤣
But if you need one asap then China isn't the answer. Also this is a good way to see what your guys and machines are capable of.
Yeah also halfway to supersonic turbomachine fragments. There's a reason you don't buy Chinese turbos.
how bout those lathe videos
You realize who's channel your on... I mean, John is still the ring leader over there. Haha.
Dude you need kinda dovetails in your fixture🤠
For the soft jaws at the start, why dont you just do a v shape instead of the cylinder. Didn't John Grismo do the same thing on his 5 axis with changing cylindical clamp to a v?
depends how hard the material you are holding is, clamping in a v will likely cause a bit of deformation / vice marks due the the small surface area coming in contact with the work. Soft jaws spread the pressure far more evenly.
if you comp the diameter to fit the work piece its a much better fit. Especially in soft jaws
That mod vice is a pain in the ass and I can already see that you have the jaw closest to the door bolted in the back away from the work where as you should have the bolts as closes as possible to the work. When you clamp the work I would bet anything that it is lifting the mod vice jaw off of the table. #1 rule in any machining is to keep things as short and close as possible. The 5th axis you used to "turn" the work for one is several inches off of the table creating a lot of deflection right there and then you also have the work bolted to an arbor to looks to be almost 2 inches from the chuck, all bad. That work should be as close as possible to the clamp. Keep everything short, close and tight.
Clearance is clearance. Just gotta do the math, pucker up and hit cycle start.
4th* axis being several inches of the table:
Sticking out of the chuck: could have been shorter.
Vise lifting the part of the table: that's why it is set with a dead blow. It happens to ALL vises.
Also, there are two holes in the vise so it fits the work and the t-slots. So, maybe the inner holes couldn't have been used with that setup.
just for guys who don't know this is not a turbine disk even the blades aren't naca aerodynamic profiles and the geometry of a turbine disk makes it impossible to machine it in a 4 axis a 5th axis is a must to reach certain areas or you will need to index it several time all of this is just to show the tormach and what it can do with the 4th axis so don't take this as a reference
Sure it is. It's just not a vary sophisticated one. Nowhere near what the standard practice was 25 years ago. That's when I last worked in the industry.
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so just to be clear, i think your just showing off what you can do with this machine so i dont think your trying to be efficient, but if it were my part id set it up in a lathe do all the diamerter work and face it to length +face groove for the contour the only mill the fins in the mill for ease of just having shit be square
You USE Your micometer wrong. USE the little END to turn to IT make a clikking Sound. Dont turn on the big END.
Not necessarily. Some micrometers have both parts (big and little) on the ratchet, so you can turn either one and still get reproducible pressure/readings.
Is it me or do they do more talking and explaining what they’re doing rather than showing the machining? Still a great video, just wish it was more footage of machining
Go look at some other vids on their channel then. They have both - machining porn and walkthrough/methodology videos like this one. These are great when you're working on similar projects in the shop and make for great reference.
This is clearly a mill/turn part.
It's not the tool if the carpenter doesn't mind spending hours making up for the tool's lack of accuracy, rigidity, repeatability or speed. You know, a Tormach.
30 m/min cutting speed fo HSS tool in 304 SS ?? No wonder you are burning the tips on the tools. If you are not sure of the hardness of the parrt or just doing a one-off or proofing a part, go more towards 7 m/min.
I file a complaint against a company like an American scammer.
Tormach This company does not send the ordered goods. Of course, the approval was made in October 2021. I file a complaint against fraud against customers of these companies.
Your turbine disk would never work in an aircraft engine.The blades are of the wrong contour & pitch. It might work in a hobby engine but i t would never work in a real aircraft engine. I know since i had machined rotating parts for aircraft engines for 20 years for GE Aviation.
Yea, I'd suspect most turbines are still separate disks and blades, not blisks. They're not 300 series stainless steel either.
No offense but never let this guy narrate another video again.
Am I the only person who is finding recent content extremely boring?
No, your not alone🙄😴😴
What I want to say is ,such Terrible toolpath
If they spend as much time talk about and making the part as it seems like in the video, I have no idea how this shop makes money.
You're on the right track. Now consider the meaning of the word "If". As in, what if they don't do what you said. Boom, you solved the tricky puzzle.