People can't unite with each other for the sake of reaching a common goal. The Pragmatics sometimes act in a corrupt and unethical manner, while the Mises Caucus people sometimes make statements that go too far. They aren't disagreeing with Libertarian philosophy, but we have to pick our battles. All parties have dysfunction, we just have to settle our differences.
Hey Pain -- this is an extremely recent development -- like last few weeks. And it's all but resolved now, so this particular 'civil war' is a blip. Of course, the undercurrents they discuss in the video have been around since the founding, but that's another matter. As to how you missed it? It's party insider stuff. If you didn't life in New Hampshire, or actively follow national party leaders or watchers, then you would never know anything happened.
Libertarianism has to be about other people's freedom as well as your own, even if we disagree what other people do with it. The fact that lots of very different people are interested in liberty is great, but bringing them together to express a coherent message is bound to be a challenge. Even if the Rs and Ds completely implode, it isn't obvious that the disaffected will join the Ls instead of just disengaging. After all, they'd be joining a group full of all sorts of strange people.
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@@eliw6607 Humans are selfish, but also social/tribal. The real trick will be to convince the tribes that other tribes are "other" but not necessarily "enemy".
Amash needs to have this conversation with Tom Woods or Dave Smith. As far as I'm concerned, he's the very best of the "establishment" non-mises caucus Libertarians, and I think that could be a genuinely fruitful conversation.
Christian Kuhasz Did they? I've been wanting to see Amash on Dave's show but all I have heard about is their clubhouse conversation(s) weeks ago which I can't view because I still don't have a Clubhouse account.
People who are afraid of "edgelording" are not serious about fighting for change. Not people wo disagree with it or argue about specifics, mind you, but if you start clutching your pearls at stark rhetoric, you are of no use.
When William Weld suggested that people should’ve voted for Hillary Clinton, in 2016, it didn’t help. When you have Democrats lying, when they said “Justin Amash endorsed Joe Biden,” it doesn’t help the LP.
Fact is, whatever is going on with the LP, it’s irrelevant. If the entire LNC was gone tomorrow and was replaced, no one would know the difference. That said, the people in charge of the party should be libertarians, not lockdown/mandatory vaccination supporting authoritarians.
Borders are inherently authoritarian. Bordertarians are the most common short stay libertarians from the "right". We need to learn how to break these shitty binary narratives we're handed.
@@ndnrb_ I am being dogmatically anarchist It is easy to focus on the useless extreme of open borders. Maybe all we really need to do is trade in those useless sanctuary cities for some Ellis Island style border towns.
@@MrHobbes08 I am fundamentally/philosophically a "no borders" guy. However, (cringingly) I have to say that until and unless the welfare state is abolished, open borders are a net negative set of policies that only hurts the great majority of people who live within those borders. There are philosophical discussions (which I encourage and love) and there are practical matters. Until the philosophical principles are followed reasonably closely, some of the practical matters cannot be productive endeavors. Open borders IS . . . one of those practical matters. Now . . . if you're looking for the state to implode . . . .
Libertarian thought is liberal minded for politics and conservative minded for the national budget. Rights and freedom is already a natural order and a Constitutionally verified for Americans. Libertarians have lost because each candidate has been too far left leaning, even more left than Central Republicans. Libertarianism is much more conservative than Liberal overall and that's why no one has gotten close to winning
@@JohnBuckWLD OR, he's just a person who doesn't think it's right to defend you OWN borders, protect your God given 2nd A rights, free speech, you don't feel like paying healthcare for illegals and America hating gun grabbers. W/a bit of lean towards Repub AND Liber
the LP is full of people who don't actually stand for anything, they only like the 'outsider' position and lobbing criticism bombs at the establishment. It is a loser's path, that's what needs to change.
The book of revelations has some wisdom for the national Libertarian Party. "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
That message is for activist groups, not parties. Activists change minds. Parties craft messaging to match what's already in people's minds to win elections. Go be a libertarian activist. I hope you win.
Justin, you're talking about how American the libertarian philosophy is. That might've been true decades possibly even a century ago. It's not true now. The size and scope of how large the American people have allowed the government to grow is evidence of that. The libertarian message is foreign to a wide swath of people now. So trying to be safe and only espouse a message you think is broadly palatable won't get anybody elected because you're only marginally different from the other two major parties.
But it shouldn't be. You get a cohesive message of lower taxes and higher freedom you'd will every time. Right now the LP's biggest claim to fame is being "pro-weed".
Yeah, I think alot of the high-minded talks within the LP are moot at best. They are talking about concepts and policies whose ship has sailed and the law of the land is fixed. Can't win anything with 'end medicare for all' or 'end social security' and 'disband the EPA and DoE'. Theory vs reality.
Saying "libertarians have been anti-police" is potentially a bit vague/misleading. You wouldn't call someone "anti-teacher" because of some of the buffoonery that happens in teachers unions or some of the indoctrination which tends to happen in public schools. This is just a minor criticism of what Nick said, because libertarians can consistently advocate for policing to exist in some capacity (ideally, privately, imo).
Saying forced commerce is ok is not a libertarian view in any way shape or form. Neither is the blanket statement that January 6th was unconstitutional. Some people may have done bad things but a libertarian would not say all did. A libertarian views the individual and their actions only. If a person believes that the election was fraudulent they have every right to go to the people's capital and demand their representatives do something about it. The People have every right to enter their Capital. What is unconstitutional is closing the people's capital to the people.
"it's almost as if people are libertarians and don't know it." Amash, the word you're looking for is "manifest" and yeah, Adam Smith made that same point.
@@preshpesh552 My recommendation, move to Liechtenstein. Or Monaco if you like them better. Still need other options? Finland, Estonia, Chile, Hong Kong, Macao, Taiwan, Cayman islands.
@@mariodatguy4988 Running a presidential candidate is damn near mandatory for running down ballot candidates, who are more important than the presidency. Check in with your local state LP to see what local elections you can still throw in for, as a candidate or a constituent.
The way to end the Civil War is to treat theft seriously. Kick out all those that had a role in trying to steal NH's shit, and do an investigation to include LP correspondence.
they are the people that resigned. Jiletta Jarvis stole that shit. Joel Bishop Henchman condoned the theft. They are the 2 people who are out, thank god.
I dunno, might have something to do with stopping arguments over whether beekeeping violates the NAP or ACTUALLY TRYING TO FUCKING MOVE THE MOVEMENT FORWARD.
Civil Asset Forfeiture is the meme example of something the LP would focus on, ignoring the massive reduction of liberty the lockdowns caused. Justin Amash is a fucking blue pill meme at this point.
When I discovered the LP in 1979 and became involved, most people I spoke with were AMAZED that anyone could have such ideas. They were (mostly) unfamiliar with libertarian ideas. 40 some years later, I don't get that at all. Most people still disagree with the core principles (or believe they do) but they are familer with the libertarian movement and party. We are in the discussion to a much greater degree than just a few years ago. That is a great advance!
I do agree that the Libertarian Party needs to stop doing things for shock value…well, that and "always" talking about pot. Every time I try to explain the philosophy, all they ever know about it are things like "oh, that guy who came up to their primary naked?" or "you just want to take drugs" (I've never use any drugs recreationally and barely had any alcohol in my life…I just don't want to). It ruins any real chance for a conversation & I've gotten to a point where I just want to give up. When all you ever see are the nuts, you can't blame them for think that.
For real. I've never done drugs. I don't want to. (Although I'm armed to the teeth. I'm from Texas leave me alone lol) but, I try to explain why the government is doing something wrong and I get a "shut up dope fiend" or some derivative. Honestly, we asked for it. My wife, who is a protectionist paleocon tells me all the time libertarians are utopians and shock artists. I can't argue with her.
The libertarian party has "libertarian socialists", people who call themselves libertarian who are actually anarchists, and traditional liberals too. It's a confused mess and libertarians can't stand each other.
That’s true, I’m philosophically libertarian but can’t stand the libertarian party. Every time I see a libertarian activist or politician I do like he seems to get run out of town by all the libertarians.
I agree. Ran into someone saying libertarians support medicare for all and reperations.. I quit paying dues in 2017 cause this stuff was going on then. One of the LP youth group leaders was making memes of himself punching "Nazis"
This was what the party needed. A big tent, election winning LP needs the energy the Mises Caucus is bringing. Now that the failed coup is over I think the prag caucus and mises caucus can finally come together
I think Amash grealy underestimates how unpopular truly liberal ideas are today. People would need to have a massive philosophical revelation for anything to change. People are NOT attracted to truth in politics. They are attracted to emotional fulfillment and a sense safety for their "own side"/a sense of danger or hatred for the "other side."
The reality is that the LP (or any "libertarian" candidate) will never be elected to the presidency. There's slim possiblities for an LP candidate or "libertarian" to get elected into the U.S. Congress or Senate. But, even if some did make it to the house or senate, there won't be enough of them to actually do anything. The LP platform is too left or too right leaning for the die hard Democrat and Republican supporters. From my experince in attending LP rallies or participating in online discussions on social media, the LP has a very sizable number of "supporters" who in reality are mostly disgruntled Republicans. The disgruntled Democrats, from my experience, are, and have always been, so very far left leaning that non of the LP's positions resonate with them at all.
The Libertarian Socialist Caucus shouldn't be something to be afraid of. It's a wonderful stack of theory which provides non-statist solutions to socialist wants. Mutualism is probably the most productive pool in this pile, and is very complimentary to Voluntaryism, Mutual Aid Societies are a great read. The Dems are battling a dead two bit philosopher for constituents because Marx makes more sense than their mess. This current drama is highlighting those ideological differences which prevent "left" and "right" libertarians from getting along. It's mostly us getting tugged about by these loaded terms from the big two in a knee jerky reactionary brawl.
I am one of them. A disgruntled Republican. I simply believe in limited federal government, personal freedom AND privacy in my financial life and moral life. (Banks reporting my every transaction in the name of Terrorism, I can't play Texas Holdem Online, I can only travel by air if I have a Real ID, Government planning my retirement, education, health care, WTF!, the list is endless) I am Libertarian at heart. We need a name like Elon Musk to fight for us to bring our ideas to the masses. Even then, it is such a completely foreign thought that the federal government needs to be severely cut and limited that I also fear as E F that it is difficult at best to gain footing in the US House or Senate. (just imagine our presidential candidate saying, "My first order of business will be to eliminate the IRS." The majority of our country just voted for officials who greatly expanded it! ) EVERYONE today rejects JFKs plea to not ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. EVERYONE wants the federal government to literally give them something. Libertarians want the fed government to give them privacy and freedom from the fed government itself, and that is an idea that is long, long, long gone.
This may be the least important thing discussed in the the video but I can't help it. As I understand it, millenials are people who were under 18 at the turn of the millennium. Therefore 12:00am 1/1/82 is the cut off. Amash is a gen Xer with room to spare. I missed it by a couple months but have an application in for an honorary membership.
"we should be saying be dont support people bdoing damage to our our system of government" This is why i cant and wont ever take amash seriously as a libertarian. If libertarians take that position, they've already lost.
Libertarians say i'm not a "real libertarian" because I'm for closed boarders. I believe in property rights. private property no trespassing. I have more of a philosophy behind me reasoning but that kind of it in a nut shell. Can someone explain to me why that's wrong?
You’re not wrong. The open borders position is that prohibiting free movement is a violation of the NAP. That only works as a principle if we achieve Anarchism imo. Allowing open borders while we have a state, especially a welfare state is not practical. I find that a lot of these discussions on what makes you a Libertarian and what doesn’t needs to be prefaced with what system you advocating. For example if we keep the US as it is but go back to an originalist interpretation of the Constitution, border control is permissible. In an anarchist world order borders wouldn’t exist in the way we know them now.
KISS- (keep it simple stupid) the issue with the libertarian on Facebook is that they are very specific in the message. It should be 3-5 topics said over and over again. -Less Government -More state Rights -Everyone is equal I think that would be it. Anyone else?
@@johncole2744 You cannot tell me Gary Johnson and Jo Jorgensen are libertarian. Gary Johnson opposed freedom of association (he would force a baker to make a gay wedding cake, he would not allow individuals to discriminate in their own business) and Jo Jorgensen used identity politics and twitted: "It is not enough to be passively not racist, we must be actively anti-racist" Not to mention that the LP is accepting so-called "libertarian socialists", which aren't a thing.
@@adrianrg75 i didn't say the lp wasn't a joke. Im saying we need to be able to get behind a candidate despite not being our personal ideal. Anyway...i think the lp will always be irrelevant, thats why i advocate libertarians running as dems and Republicans instead
@@ForbiddenFollyFollower Democrats believe that a homeless white man is more privileged than Obama because Obama has darker skin. They don’t care about class, they have focused entirely on race.
Amash Sharpe 2024! Intelligent, practical libertarians who will reach out to people who agree. Libertarians spend too much time fighting each other on fringe cases making us look like jokes (anyone remember driver's licenses?). Find the issues most people agree with us on and hit those issues not the fringe cases people disagree on and chip away at the establishment.
I'm not a libertarian, but I want a viable alternative to both major parties. But looking at the comments, libertarians complaining that Amash or others aren't pure enough in their beliefs, I realize that libertarian infighting dooms the party and makes them look as petty as social justice activists or religious people fighting among themselves and trying to signal that they're purer than the other guy.
There is a big difference between Libertarians and the Libertarian Party. They just ran a Presidential candidate that called for anti-racism, which is wildly anti-Libertarian if you know the definition. Racism in order to achieve equity and correct past racism. They also tend to select their Presidential Candidate before half of the country has even voted in the primaries. Over Trump's 4 years, Reason and the LP have shown themselves to be hypocrites. All they achieve is helping the major party candidate that mostly agrees with your views to lose by putting up a similar candidate that has no hope of winning.
@@KevinSmith-qi5yn Can we seriously not let the dems control the definition of anti-racism? I know we get barraged with loaded binary terms, and we need to learn how to define ourselves on our own terms. Racism is not compatible with capitalism. It is an irrational feeling which clogs up the works. Ironically our backpedal for not baking that cake is Cancel Culture, which could become a proper invisible hand of the market if it ever leaves twitter and grows up. The Dems do shove double standards through these social issues as an excuse for expanding government for shit that should already exist. That monopoly of thought is begging for competition.
Thats why i advocate pushing a more mild classical liberal approach. Way more people could get on board and libertarians should atleast agree classical liberalism would be significantly better than the mess we have now. We need to stop treating libertarianism as a religious cult and instead, a philosophy of "letting people be" the best we can as a country.
Excellent conversation. If only a fifth of American adults took the time to listen to this discussion this would be a very different country indeed. Kudos to Nick and Justin. Apologies for the adjectives. Get yer racism and your wokeism cured in less than two hours. Long live Liberty.
Lectures people about being libertarian, then calls for laws forcing people to do commerce. Does Reason come in a flavor other than milquetoast? BTW the Juneteenth thing is a strawman. I listen to loys of Mises caucus people and have heard no real opposition to it.
The ones who do complain about it should be watched closely for other dog whistles. Pretty sure there was just some wonky outreach at some point (there was a flood of short stay bordertarians). Heard some gossip that expressed awareness of those issues, something about some paid recruiting URLs. Our challenge is how to break out of these stale binary narratives to define us on our own terms.
Justin Amash is a snake politician....being associated with the LP is suicide for the party....actually for any party. On the other hand Ron Paul was the best President we never had.
BTW, the libertarianism of the Libertarian Party is not about pushing political decisions down to the local old guard politicians, i.e., decentralization. The LP is about pushing decision to the individuals in a free market. The market is where valid decentralization occurs. See the last line of the LP Statement of Principles.
@@daltonbrasier5491 still need to have a healthy debate floor, which we don't have. Especially with all these loaded meme definition words we gotta figure out how to get around.
Jeff A None The constitution was designed in large part to limit the contexts in which “trying to make everyone agree” would be necessary. That’s how the European monarchies were. This was almost universally understood in America until like 5 years ago, when the “liberals” did a 180 on the first amendment and memory holed everything up to and including Charlie hebdo.
I'm not so sure that, as he says around 28:00, that people are really that libertarian. I think people are libertarian when it comes to restrictions on themselves ("leave me alone, let me do my own thing"), but are happy for others to be told what to do. also his point about movies is kind of weak -- many movies involve handing over the keys to some militaristic central power to fight the bad guys.
The problem is that libertarians have better things to do than waste their time in politics: like selling CBD lifestyle products or funneling VC capital thorough a pass through Blockchain to dodge the feds.
Edit: Yes, I know heroin legalisation is not controversial, you can stop telling me He isn't wrong. If a libertarian were to go up to someone and say "Hello, I am Annelid Minor, I want to legalise heroin, privatise nukes and defund the police, vote for me please", they would be laughed out of the debating hall. It should be "We need to regulate heroin in the same way we do with tobacco and alcohol, lower taxes and reform the police" and then we can work our way forward.
@@thefrenchareharlequins2743 Ron Paul was cheered on as he told Wallace at a republican debate that we should legalize heroin. So youre just fucking wrong dude.
@@thefrenchareharlequins2743 Thats my point. Ron Paul converted Millions of life long libertarians. Not by saying republican talking points, but by being controversial and telling the truth.
The LP can succeed and become a major force in the American Polical force when the follow the principles of Ron Paul, and go out and find libertarians who are willing to run for office and become prominent players in the party. When you have intelligent, liberty, freedom minded people like Justin Amash, Spike Cohen, Dave Smith, Larry Sharpe, and Martha Bueno, etc. The message needs to come together and have a set principle inspired by Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. It can work!!!
Nearly all serious Libertarians are pushed into the GOP because of how unserious the LP is. The only people left in the LP are those who have no interest in actually winning anything, only criticizing. The LP SHOULD be the largest party in the USA, but they can't stop chasing off serious contenders to the GOP or other 3rd party. Identify how the LP is DIFFERENT from the establishment, hammer those points AND ONLY THOSE POINTS for the whole cycle...stop playing poli-sci thought games during interviews.
this party has a huge opportunity but until they start articulating tangible policies about real-world issues instead of just talking about Ayn Rand theories, they'll never be that successful. Talk less about "federalism" (which barely anyone understands) and more about how you plan to make sure people can afford health care.
You sir have a brain and know how to use it. The party is unelectable because they seem to be more interested in utopia than an actual solutions to real world problems. These "problems" are usually solved by the market itself.
@@misternibbles7426 yes and even if the solution is to let the market solve the problem, that solution should be articulated in a plan and preferably even legislation. in the case of health care, an articulated plan may be something like "we plan to knock down the barriers to competition among providers by sponsoring legislation to do so". instead, what people hear is "our plan is to let the market sort it out" which is too vague and scary for most to get behind. at least that's my opinion.
Some people will always hate me, solely because I am Jewish and live in Israel. I cannot do much about THAT. However, I CAN emphasize the most important point about liberty in that; say what you will, but keep your hands off my SELF and my STUFF.
Juneteenth was a bad choice to nationally celebrate ending slavery. It is a local Texas holiday. Celebrating the announcement of the emancipation proclamation would have been a much better choice.
Or the ratification of the 13th amendment; since at least 2 states continued slavery months after Texas. Either way, Juneteenth is stupid word. Sounds like a 3 year old made it up. It should be called emancipation day, like the holiday called "emancipation day" in D.C.
Honey Badger that seems to be the trend now. Whataboutism, social distancing, fake news, misinformation... it’s hard to even say them out loud without cringing. “Juneteenth” is particularly grotesque as it is based on the calendar date, but renders the actual date completely ambiguous. The Newspeak words in 1984 are similarly childlike.
Sorry, Virginia, but what does it matter? Given the choice, almost no one votes Libertarian. We live in a country where we have to fight just to get on the ballot. We live in a country with, effectively, only one more party than the PRC. A little squabbling in our own party is the least of our worries.
As a LPMC guy, no. This is one of many avenues to create some awareness, pull people over ect, but winning? Not a chance. The establishment would never allow it. I agree with Matt Erikson (@kingpilled) on a lot of his points regarding this. "The problem isnt that people dont know about libertarianism, its that they do, and have rejected because it offers them nothing."
Juneteenth is a clever back-door way to remind everyone of slavery. Yes, there will be talk of the slaves being freed, but it is also an opportunity for race advocates to reopen the wounds of slavery, which just increases racial tension. That said, I don't see why it should be a significant issue in libertarian policy.
Those wounds aren't quite healed yet. The tossing around piss poor watered down versions of CRT isn't helping though. Neither do the pseudo-intellectual grifters like Robin Diangelo. Juneteenth holds value as a recognized holiday. Just scroll on by and let them have their moment without adding to the other side of shit flinging.
@@MrHobbes08 Nothing that has been done can be undone. The scales of the world can never truly be balanced. Better to face the world as it is and move forward as best as we can.
@@mondovicium So lets give the Dems some competition for that monopoly of thought they got on these social issues which they stretch with double standards as an excuse to expand goverment for shit that should already exist
One more federal holiday just gives me an extra day off each year, and I have a reason to bbq. If we keep it in a celebratory light, like the 4th of July, I think it’s great. It’s just a day to celebrate that we did the right thing as a country. If we use it as race bait bullshit, that’s a whole different story.
juneteenth "independence day" is a trick to subvert the actual independence day and argue that the country was built by slaves therefore repenting for slavery should be important message of the independence day and not freedom. Which is what the 1619 project argues which has been discredited by academics. Its like when germany switched from being proud of being german to being sorry for ww2. This is the goal of juneteenth to turn the nation into a serf class to non white people who have never been slaves to apologize for slavery....FOREVER....WITH YOUR MONEY...WITH HATE SPEECH LAWS....WITH NO FREEDOM.
The LP Needs to focus on local elections. Pick one major purple city, something purple and focus on winning local elections there. Prove that Freedom makes things better. Have a success to be able to hold up as an example.
And that's your problem. You keep looking to split off Republican votes as if a 3-party system is viable or even desirable. Go to a hard Blue area and give people a choice for the first time in decades. Target the Marxists base for once.
Purple cities is where we'd be least likely to win. That's where partisan politics is most entrenched. The examples of the LP winning usually happen in either A. Nonpartisan races, B. Multi-winner districts (for example, 3 seats up for grabs, 4 candidates), and finally, C. In partisan races, Libertarians can win when there's one major party candidate and it's a two way race. The one state rep the LP has elected as a Libertarian, challenged an incumbent Democrat and won. This should be where the LP pours resources is districts where there are multiple winners, uncontested incumbents, etc.
Justin is new to the Party itself so I can forgive him, but he undermined his own argument. He said people will latch onto profound ideas and you don't need to bring your own opinion into it, but none of those tweets he mentioned did that. They all simply stated profound facts. Bringing up soft easy topics of discussion have gotten the LP almost nowhere in 50 years. He may instinctively regard it as unprofessional, but it's really effective utilization of provocative truths. We are a completely different way of viewing government, and we are going to come off as profound no matter what. It's better to stir up real controversy over these truths and have it widely spoken about than to just have it die down in an echo chamber of passive agreement. It's time to release the flood gates and really make headlines in 2024...
Democratic Party, and G.O.P. are actually one codependent party, or O.C.P. They're both run by corporate lobbyists more than ever since the Robert's court now. Then I don't get it how Israel is allowed a lobby. Would the Libertarian Party get rid of the money in politics? That would shrink unjust lobbying in government I think.
I'm excited about the future of libertarianism but I can't get excited about a blue pilled libertarian. We just came off a year of lockdowns and the government is becoming increasingly authoritarian year after year. Amash: "in one sense we have a much more libertarian country than we've ever had" well shit, I guess we've never had it so good. 🙄🙄🙄
Sorry not sorry Justin but we Paleolibertarians are sick of the direction that the LP has been and either want the WHOLE CAKE to leader it in the direction of Mises, Rothbard and Hope, or create a whole new movement entirely
@@brianmcandrew7374 No he isn’t, firstly Amash is not a paleo and made it a point to be stand against it and sides openly with what’s wrong with the LP. Again we Paleolibertarians want a part of Mises, Rothbard and Hoppe not Amash and Jeffrey Tucker
I had a stroke trying to read your spelling of libertarianism. Anarchist or not, whether this form of govt works or not, we must fight for reform with the tools at our disposal. And anyone using those tools knows that they work.
Defending the intentioned hierarchy isn't the same as defending the politicians that inhabit it. I'm already in the anarchist pool, but you still need those baby steps.
Here's a tweet without adjectives: Child labor laws should be revised or abolished. They don't help Children. They prevent them from getting a good job, on-job experience & ability to earn some money early in their life. That is not an edgelord comment. That's simply the truth. And if you are part of the libertarian party who don't believe in that then that's your prerogative but claiming people are edgelords for solid opinions which even Rothbard would have backed up is not antithetical to being a libertarian.
I am appalled by the lack of vote audits that led to Jan 6th and extremely appalled by the way we have allowed Jan 6th to be characterized and prosecuted. And no, being anti-woke is not a problem and doesn't impede folks from saying libertarian things. Juneteenth is just idiotic because of the facts about it. That we should celebrate when some tiny corner of the USA finally realized slavery had ended is just silly. And no, again, the freedom of association should not disappear from any entity simply because it has a store or offers a service. Any non government entity has the right to be as bigoted as they wish and that really is a hard line stance that libertarians need to hold. As soon as we start allowing government to say with whom we can, must or must not (see COVID) associate, we are lost as a nation.
Most people crudely labeled as libertarians, in my experience, are classical liberals who became disaffected with party politics. Amash advocates for a Libertarian Party that with many of the unprincipled features that led us to becoming unaffiliated voters in the first place. It is astonishing how little he seems to understand or relate to this demographic. Jo Jorgensen, Gary Johnson, even Jill Stein never had that disconnect, even when I disagreed with them. Will definitely continue disregarding the Libertarian Party and Amash, who hilariously voted to impeach trump over the russiagate farce.
He stated that the purpose of the 1st amendment was to protect unpopular speech. I don't think that's the case. I thought the 1st amendment, along with the rest of the bill of rights, was in support of the original text of the constitution. That is, "the above described set of policies and governance is only truly a democracy if these 10 things are true." The bill of rights is not about some "starter pack" of laws, but capturing the assumptions the framers of the constitution had. In the case of the first amendment, it's not to protect unpopular speech, but to protect speech which may be unpopular with whomever is in power of the government. That is, speech which is seen as a threat. Amash is right that it ties to a general ethos of liberalism (so retaliation or using "soft-government" institutions...such as appealing to employers of people you dislike to get them fired...is contradictory), it's not the purpose behind the 1st amendment, itself.
The bill of rights was adopted in order to get all tbe confederate states to ratify the constitution. The first amendment comes from English tradition and limits Congress’s authority to restrict speech, religion, press, assembly, and right to petition. You are right that the English tradition never protected things like libel/defamation/obscenity/etc. But because we wrote our constitution down, the text is more controlling than in England
"If things are reconstituted, the Constitution will not be as Libertarian.... Those who want to tear it down, they imagine some kind of Utopia, when what we'll get is a dystopia..." Very, very, very true.
It's not libertarian now the 13th allows for slavery and don't get me started on taxation. It could be though with a 28th amendment that says, "Government shall not initiate force."
@@iamchillydogg If you can push through a 28th amendment, more power to you. The problem is that, if the Constitution were re-written today, it probably wouldn't contain this 28th amendment. There would be more bad things. The new order wouldn't consult you to make sure they got things right. The question is not whether the Constitution is perfect. The question is whether anything written today, at this particular political moment, is likely to be better or worse.
Amash is pretty naive in thinking that most people are libertarians. No, most people are partisan or non partisan hypocrites who claim to be "libertarian on" this issue or that issue, including independents, because they want to justify their own moral conscience without being fully moral. They are 1/4th libertarian and 3/4th "too cool and pragmatic to be libertarian". We ought to shame them for advocating for, for example, jailing people for non violent offences. We are talking about matters of life and death, on matters of freedom and slavery, not debating on the best flavour of koolaid.
The implications of libertarian philosophy put to question all the sacred cows of the progressive state projects of the 20th century, most of which even Republicans have at least half-way bought into. To suggest that "most people are libertarians" is either an attempt to make libertarian philosophy into something much less radical, or is just a straight up delusion.
Most people want their own liberty. Their neighbors liberty is dangerous and must be stopped. That is without considering money. For a promise of an extra 600$. Dems got votes from nominally antiwar voters. Imagine voting to continue the genocide in Yemen in exchange for a promise of 600$. While you lecture others about your compassion.
Losing more respect for this guy. Fruity egalitarianism and inoffensive centrism is not libertarianism. The idea that rich white guys aren't affected by civil asset forfeiture is objectively false. The LP needs principled candidates and messaging. Make a real difference. Inspire people.
There are several problems with the LP. First, as stated, they cannot decide if they are a serious party or a protest/activist movement. Second, few realize that they are composed of Libertarian leftists and Libertarian rightists. They don't get along very well. Third, practically all Libertarians are highly individualistic and not pretty averse to being part of groups. Last, I do think that the RNC likely fucks around with the LP. Dave Smith poked this bear at the SoHo Forum debate he did. I think that the LP are like the Wildings in GoT: they need a Mance Rader...which just isn't there yet.
After watching the whole video. Seems like Amash wants a libertarian party run by Sarwark and to create a big tent party that will mimic the democrat and Republican parties in size etc. If thata his stance then I don't support him. I support a leader who will speak without fear and not an empty suit. Amash should go back to the republican party.
Different factions of Libertarians hate each other and eat their own even more than Socialists. This is the big problem. There are too many in different factions who are so ideological about their specific beliefs and philosophy that it is hard to see at the moment how they come together and get over the ideology.
The fact that the LP party currently has less direction and focus than a quantum particle and Jo Jorgensen is a two faced politician that talks a good talk but will put a knife in your back without hesitation or a second though, is why I left the LP party after being a 28 year member and became an independent. Unfortunately the LP party is a failure and won't have any success until it actually has a real focus, structure and a cohesive direction again.
I'm not a libertarian (and the definition of the term is tainted), but I'd only consider taking it seriously if the Mises caucus was in charge. LP in it's current form isn't worth acknowledging.
I disagree that the Libertarian Party shouldn't have activism. I think we should be involved in what's going on in our communities and states and holding the officials/bureaucrats accountable. Too many people go into politics have the wrong motivations or become corrupted by the system. Activism can bring people into the party when they see Libertarian activism making a difference. I agree that the rhetoric is a problem. I suppose there will always be individuals from all sides making superficial and juvenile remarks, such as making fun of appearances. There are people who call themselves Libertarian who are just as ridiculous with their criticism as those on the left and right extremes.
Around 2010-2015, the libertarian party was just a home for guilty republicans/democrats. They'd disagree with the DNC/RNC party platform on one thing and think that made them a libertarian. As a result, the only thing you'd hear out of the LNC was boring crap like "Racism is bad". In 2020, not one word against the lockdowns came out from the LNC, absolutely shameful. At the same time, there were actual true libertarian podcasters with huge audiences. Audiences whose size was comparable to the LNC itself. Podcasters who weren't afraid to say the truth, like "the real criminals in our society are the police". Or "get the government 100% out of schools". Or "taxation is theft". Or "John McCain never saw a war he didn't like, he was not a hero, he was a monster". Or "the military isn't protecting us, they are the enemy". Things that are not "acceptable" to say, but are the truth. So Michael Heiss convinced several of the podcasters to join the party and bring their audiences. And the new membership has been voting out the old leadership. Two national party chairs have left in absolute disgrace for being exposed. Entire state chapters that were basically "democrats trying to be cool" have been cleaned out. Justin Amash was a Republican. He was pro national security state. In the law few days of his office he changed his party affiliation to "libertarian" to steal the title "first libertarian congressman" which he didn't deserve. He was never elected as a libertarian. And this video is Justin Amash still trying to push the old "don't say anything that will offend lobbyists or donors" strategy of failing by never fighting. Reason/Cato are basically the old lukewarm group, finger wagging and saying "that's not proper". Places like Mises Institute, Antiwar.com, the Dave Smith / Ron Paul / Tom woods audience are the new group, actually throwing punches at the establishment and refusing to be language policed.
Trumpies are not libertarians. The "alt right" are not libertarians. Period. There is a fundamental difference between capitalists who just want low taxes and estate taxes and ACTUAL libertarians... The difference is liberty. The free market is a means to that end which is freedom and liberty, it is not the end. This is not for greedy businessmen to exploit, it is to protect the little guy. To encourage small business, to encourage small and fringe opinions, fringe religions, fringe beliefs. To ever think that anti-muslim anti immigrant anti civil rights anti accountability is somehow a faithful representation of this party is a fucking joke.
"Can the libertarian party be a major contender" No, as long as people can be bribed by the coercive power of the government to take money from A and give to B - government will grow.
I would gladly campaign for Amash as an L. But I would hope that someone like Rand Paul or Elon Musk would run as a R or D to get a shot at winning, even if it was tainted by one of the parties I despise. Ive only ever voted for Ls. Sad but true
Put the Principles into Action The abolition of all ballot access laws as censorship is not a matter of "purist" fidelity to abstract principle, but rather a convergence of principle and pragmatic strategy. Overcoming the quotas imposed by ballot censorship is dead weight sunk cost that does nothing to persuade voters to choose Libertarian candidates. Advocating for the abolition of ballot censorship could persuade some voters to finance and vote for Libertarian candidates. I say this with the perspective of a co-founder of the Libertarian Party and Chair of the Bylaws Committee at the founding convention in 1972.
And here I am as an actual libertarian minding my own business that I didn't even know there was a "civil war" going on lol.
People can't unite with each other for the sake of reaching a common goal. The Pragmatics sometimes act in a corrupt and unethical manner, while the Mises Caucus people sometimes make statements that go too far. They aren't disagreeing with Libertarian philosophy, but we have to pick our battles. All parties have dysfunction, we just have to settle our differences.
My sentiments exactly
That’s how “not in your face” libertarians are. We don’t run to Fox or CNN crying for attention.
@@thefetterman4608 No, you just run to FB to cry about the other two parties, and become even more irrelevant.
Hey Pain -- this is an extremely recent development -- like last few weeks. And it's all but resolved now, so this particular 'civil war' is a blip. Of course, the undercurrents they discuss in the video have been around since the founding, but that's another matter.
As to how you missed it? It's party insider stuff. If you didn't life in New Hampshire, or actively follow national party leaders or watchers, then you would never know anything happened.
Just for the record, I was voting for 'The Libertarian Party' and not 'Gary Johnson' in 2016.
That was a lot of people, myself included.
Yea, I totally did the same thing. I would have taken Trump or Hillary over Gary Johnson.
@@KevinSmith-qi5yn Let's not get TOO ridiculous. Johnson was still a far better pick than Trump or Clinton, he just wasn't a very good libertarian.
@@Meton2526 uh he wasn't a good pick period.
And 2020
Libertarianism has to be about other people's freedom as well as your own, even if we disagree what other people do with it. The fact that lots of very different people are interested in liberty is great, but bringing them together to express a coherent message is bound to be a challenge. Even if the Rs and Ds completely implode, it isn't obvious that the disaffected will join the Ls instead of just disengaging. After all, they'd be joining a group full of all sorts of strange people.
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@@eliw6607 Humans are selfish, but also social/tribal. The real trick will be to convince the tribes that other tribes are "other" but not necessarily "enemy".
Amash needs to have this conversation with Tom Woods or Dave Smith. As far as I'm concerned, he's the very best of the "establishment" non-mises caucus Libertarians, and I think that could be a genuinely fruitful conversation.
Amash did have a conversation with Michael Malice, in case you haven't seen it:
ruclips.net/video/P4SeBpJQL9k/видео.html
If they could unite. We could do some damage
Christian Kuhasz Did they? I've been wanting to see Amash on Dave's show but all I have heard about is their clubhouse conversation(s) weeks ago which I can't view because I still don't have a Clubhouse account.
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Nothing changes if nothing changes. Keep up the good fight, Justin!
People who are afraid of "edgelording" are not serious about fighting for change. Not people wo disagree with it or argue about specifics, mind you, but if you start clutching your pearls at stark rhetoric, you are of no use.
When William Weld suggested that people should’ve voted for Hillary Clinton, in 2016, it didn’t help.
When you have Democrats lying, when they said “Justin Amash endorsed Joe Biden,” it doesn’t help the LP.
Agree 100%. William Weld has no business being the VP for the Libertarian Party on the National level.
Fact is, whatever is going on with the LP, it’s irrelevant. If the entire LNC was gone tomorrow and was replaced, no one would know the difference. That said, the people in charge of the party should be libertarians, not lockdown/mandatory vaccination supporting authoritarians.
Borders are inherently authoritarian. Bordertarians are the most common short stay libertarians from the "right".
We need to learn how to break these shitty binary narratives we're handed.
@@MrHobbes08 That’s why libertarians lose
@@ndnrb_ I am being dogmatically anarchist
It is easy to focus on the useless extreme of open borders. Maybe all we really need to do is trade in those useless sanctuary cities for some Ellis Island style border towns.
@@MrHobbes08 I am fundamentally/philosophically a "no borders" guy. However, (cringingly) I have to say that until and unless the welfare state is abolished, open borders are a net negative set of policies that only hurts the great majority of people who live within those borders. There are philosophical discussions (which I encourage and love) and there are practical matters. Until the philosophical principles are followed reasonably closely, some of the practical matters cannot be productive endeavors. Open borders IS . . . one of those practical matters. Now . . . if you're looking for the state to implode . . . .
@@freedhwy Italy's Marcora Law is pretty neat, and could be used as inspiration for a better brand of welfare
Libertarian thought is liberal minded for politics and conservative minded for the national budget.
Rights and freedom is already a natural order and a Constitutionally verified for Americans.
Libertarians have lost because each candidate has been too far left leaning, even more left than Central Republicans.
Libertarianism is much more conservative than Liberal overall and that's why no one has gotten close to winning
I am an avowed Libertarian, but do not relate to those who endorse Biden and other loonies.
Because when you take a step back and really study your beliefs, you're really more a duopoly loving Republican with some libertarian leanings.
@@JohnBuckWLD OR, he's just a person who doesn't think it's right to defend you OWN borders, protect your God given 2nd A rights, free speech, you don't feel like paying healthcare for illegals and America hating gun grabbers. W/a bit of lean towards Repub AND Liber
DOES think it's right to defend....
the LP is full of people who don't actually stand for anything, they only like the 'outsider' position and lobbing criticism bombs at the establishment. It is a loser's path, that's what needs to change.
The book of revelations has some wisdom for the national Libertarian Party.
"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
That message is for activist groups, not parties. Activists change minds. Parties craft messaging to match what's already in people's minds to win elections.
Go be a libertarian activist. I hope you win.
@@ErikBuchanan That doesn't make sense.
Justin, you're talking about how American the libertarian philosophy is. That might've been true decades possibly even a century ago. It's not true now. The size and scope of how large the American people have allowed the government to grow is evidence of that. The libertarian message is foreign to a wide swath of people now. So trying to be safe and only espouse a message you think is broadly palatable won't get anybody elected because you're only marginally different from the other two major parties.
But it shouldn't be. You get a cohesive message of lower taxes and higher freedom you'd will every time. Right now the LP's biggest claim to fame is being "pro-weed".
Yeah, I think alot of the high-minded talks within the LP are moot at best. They are talking about concepts and policies whose ship has sailed and the law of the land is fixed. Can't win anything with 'end medicare for all' or 'end social security' and 'disband the EPA and DoE'. Theory vs reality.
Saying "libertarians have been anti-police" is potentially a bit vague/misleading. You wouldn't call someone "anti-teacher" because of some of the buffoonery that happens in teachers unions or some of the indoctrination which tends to happen in public schools. This is just a minor criticism of what Nick said, because libertarians can consistently advocate for policing to exist in some capacity (ideally, privately, imo).
Google private police. You’ll feel smarter.
Saying forced commerce is ok is not a libertarian view in any way shape or form.
Neither is the blanket statement that January 6th was unconstitutional. Some people may have done bad things but a libertarian would not say all did. A libertarian views the individual and their actions only.
If a person believes that the election was fraudulent they have every right to go to the people's capital and demand their representatives do something about it.
The People have every right to enter their Capital.
What is unconstitutional is closing the people's capital to the people.
Justin Amash is not a libertarian, neither is Rand Paul.
@@elgrigorio1Rand Paul is not relevant nor does he claim to be a libertarian.
@@danielkinney8166 he is only a libertarian in name, but not in any other way shape or form.
"it's almost as if people are libertarians and don't know it." Amash, the word you're looking for is "manifest" and yeah, Adam Smith made that same point.
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Used to be a party member but the past few years have been embarrassing
What exactly is embarrassing about it?
Me too I feel like Jo was a horrible canidate
@@mariodatguy4988 Running a presidential candidate is damn near mandatory for running down ballot candidates, who are more important than the presidency.
Check in with your local state LP to see what local elections you can still throw in for, as a candidate or a constituent.
@@Realoemo - you must have missed Jorgenson's tweet on being "anti-racist"
Check out the Mises Caucus.
The way to end the Civil War is to treat theft seriously. Kick out all those that had a role in trying to steal NH's shit, and do an investigation to include LP correspondence.
they are the people that resigned. Jiletta Jarvis stole that shit. Joel Bishop Henchman condoned the theft. They are the 2 people who are out, thank god.
I dunno, might have something to do with stopping arguments over whether beekeeping violates the NAP or ACTUALLY TRYING TO FUCKING MOVE THE MOVEMENT FORWARD.
Lol is that a real thing?
@@JAFFAWIRE I imagine vegans think it does.
Civil Asset Forfeiture is the meme example of something the LP would focus on, ignoring the massive reduction of liberty the lockdowns caused. Justin Amash is a fucking blue pill meme at this point.
@Archie Bunker of what?
@Archie Bunker It sounds like that would violate the NAP! We are not Pinochetists, ffs!
he’s one of my favorite congressmen ever.
When I discovered the LP in 1979 and became involved, most people I spoke with were AMAZED that anyone could have such ideas. They were (mostly) unfamiliar with libertarian ideas.
40 some years later, I don't get that at all. Most people still disagree with the core principles (or believe they do) but they are familer with the libertarian movement and party.
We are in the discussion to a much greater degree than just a few years ago.
That is a great advance!
I do agree that the Libertarian Party needs to stop doing things for shock value…well, that and "always" talking about pot. Every time I try to explain the philosophy, all they ever know about it are things like "oh, that guy who came up to their primary naked?" or "you just want to take drugs" (I've never use any drugs recreationally and barely had any alcohol in my life…I just don't want to). It ruins any real chance for a conversation & I've gotten to a point where I just want to give up. When all you ever see are the nuts, you can't blame them for think that.
For real. I've never done drugs. I don't want to. (Although I'm armed to the teeth. I'm from Texas leave me alone lol) but, I try to explain why the government is doing something wrong and I get a "shut up dope fiend" or some derivative. Honestly, we asked for it. My wife, who is a protectionist paleocon tells me all the time libertarians are utopians and shock artists. I can't argue with her.
Every political party is painted in the light of it's nuttiest members. Theirs's no escaping this unfortunately.
Doing well, without pushing libertarian values is of no value to actual libertarians. Only disaffected republicans.
The libertarian party has "libertarian socialists", people who call themselves libertarian who are actually anarchists, and traditional liberals too. It's a confused mess and libertarians can't stand each other.
That’s true, I’m philosophically libertarian but can’t stand the libertarian party. Every time I see a libertarian activist or politician I do like he seems to get run out of town by all the libertarians.
I agree. Ran into someone saying libertarians support medicare for all and reperations.. I quit paying dues in 2017 cause this stuff was going on then. One of the LP youth group leaders was making memes of himself punching "Nazis"
This was what the party needed. A big tent, election winning LP needs the energy the Mises Caucus is bringing. Now that the failed coup is over I think the prag caucus and mises caucus can finally come together
The next election will be the first election I can legally vote. LETS GET THE FIRST LIBERTARIAN IN OFFICE.
The first? There are 224 in office, right now.
Grow up
@@bozimmerman Never a president
Check in with your local state LP to find the local elections to get involved with.
Tell all your friends about the LP also. But don't let them convince you to stay in the "lesser of two evils" nexus.
The LP needs to be a one issue party and that issue is stopping government from initiating force.
I think Amash grealy underestimates how unpopular truly liberal ideas are today. People would need to have a massive philosophical revelation for anything to change. People are NOT attracted to truth in politics. They are attracted to emotional fulfillment and a sense safety for their "own side"/a sense of danger or hatred for the "other side."
Yeah, gullible smart phone to Gipper worshipping public ate that 911 deception hook line and sinker.
The reality is that the LP (or any "libertarian" candidate) will never be elected to the presidency. There's slim possiblities for an LP candidate or "libertarian" to get elected into the U.S. Congress or Senate. But, even if some did make it to the house or senate, there won't be enough of them to actually do anything. The LP platform is too left or too right leaning for the die hard Democrat and Republican supporters. From my experince in attending LP rallies or participating in online discussions on social media, the LP has a very sizable number of "supporters" who in reality are mostly disgruntled Republicans. The disgruntled Democrats, from my experience, are, and have always been, so very far left leaning that non of the LP's positions resonate with them at all.
I’ve always believed that the Republican Party needs to absorb the LP in order to stay relveate.
The Libertarian Socialist Caucus shouldn't be something to be afraid of. It's a wonderful stack of theory which provides non-statist solutions to socialist wants. Mutualism is probably the most productive pool in this pile, and is very complimentary to Voluntaryism, Mutual Aid Societies are a great read. The Dems are battling a dead two bit philosopher for constituents because Marx makes more sense than their mess.
This current drama is highlighting those ideological differences which prevent "left" and "right" libertarians from getting along. It's mostly us getting tugged about by these loaded terms from the big two in a knee jerky reactionary brawl.
@@MrHobbes08 But we shouldn’t be working in theories.
@@brianmcandrew7374 If the theory can effectively combat Marxism then we should.
Mutual Aid Societies are what we used before these insurance rackets.
I am one of them. A disgruntled Republican. I simply believe in limited federal government, personal freedom AND privacy in my financial life and moral life. (Banks reporting my every transaction in the name of Terrorism, I can't play Texas Holdem Online, I can only travel by air if I have a Real ID, Government planning my retirement, education, health care, WTF!, the list is endless) I am Libertarian at heart. We need a name like Elon Musk to fight for us to bring our ideas to the masses. Even then, it is such a completely foreign thought that the federal government needs to be severely cut and limited that I also fear as E F that it is difficult at best to gain footing in the US House or Senate. (just imagine our presidential candidate saying, "My first order of business will be to eliminate the IRS." The majority of our country just voted for officials who greatly expanded it! ) EVERYONE today rejects JFKs plea to not ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. EVERYONE wants the federal government to literally give them something. Libertarians want the fed government to give them privacy and freedom from the fed government itself, and that is an idea that is long, long, long gone.
Great, Great Discussion!
This may be the least important thing discussed in the the video but I can't help it. As I understand it, millenials are people who were under 18 at the turn of the millennium. Therefore 12:00am 1/1/82 is the cut off. Amash is a gen Xer with room to spare. I missed it by a couple months but have an application in for an honorary membership.
Most definitions of the Millennial age range are from 1980 to the mid 90s.
"we should be saying be dont support people bdoing damage to our our system of government"
This is why i cant and wont ever take amash seriously as a libertarian. If libertarians take that position, they've already lost.
I want to dismantle the system of government peacefully. He has yet to come to terms with the anarchist element in this party.
Libertarians say i'm not a "real libertarian" because I'm for closed boarders. I believe in property rights. private property no trespassing. I have more of a philosophy behind me reasoning but that kind of it in a nut shell. Can someone explain to me why that's wrong?
You’re not wrong. The open borders position is that prohibiting free movement is a violation of the NAP. That only works as a principle if we achieve Anarchism imo. Allowing open borders while we have a state, especially a welfare state is not practical. I find that a lot of these discussions on what makes you a Libertarian and what doesn’t needs to be prefaced with what system you advocating. For example if we keep the US as it is but go back to an originalist interpretation of the Constitution, border control is permissible. In an anarchist world order borders wouldn’t exist in the way we know them now.
KISS- (keep it simple stupid) the issue with the libertarian on Facebook is that they are very specific in the message. It should be 3-5 topics said over and over again.
-Less Government
-More state Rights
-Everyone is equal
I think that would be it.
Anyone else?
Remind folks that less government = less taxes = more freedom and you might get somewhere.
And would it kill the LP to at least LOOK pro-American?
A good idea for the LP would be to actually nominate a libertarian candidate. Maybe that's the problem.
That the problem "no true scotsman "
@@johncole2744 You cannot tell me Gary Johnson and Jo Jorgensen are libertarian. Gary Johnson opposed freedom of association (he would force a baker to make a gay wedding cake, he would not allow individuals to discriminate in their own business) and Jo Jorgensen used identity politics and twitted:
"It is not enough to be passively not racist, we must be actively anti-racist"
Not to mention that the LP is accepting so-called "libertarian socialists", which aren't a thing.
@@adrianrg75 i didn't say the lp wasn't a joke. Im saying we need to be able to get behind a candidate despite not being our personal ideal.
Anyway...i think the lp will always be irrelevant, thats why i advocate libertarians running as dems and Republicans instead
@@johncole2744 Yeah, me too. Ron Paul's strategy was much better
@@adrianrg75 we just need to push to eliminate political parties. They are the death of liberty
Finally the first guy I’ve heard in years talk about poor white people at the bottom in the community.
Democrats talk about ALL poor people, it's not a racial thing??
@@ForbiddenFollyFollower Democrats believe that a homeless white man is more privileged than Obama because Obama has darker skin. They don’t care about class, they have focused entirely on race.
@@ForbiddenFollyFollower really, they sure bring up race a lot and appeal to non whites racial insecurities, I guess it works
#TheTakeOver #misescaucus
We need a Ron Paul leader.... Justin Amash doesn't have my support yet.
Amash Sharpe 2024! Intelligent, practical libertarians who will reach out to people who agree. Libertarians spend too much time fighting each other on fringe cases making us look like jokes (anyone remember driver's licenses?). Find the issues most people agree with us on and hit those issues not the fringe cases people disagree on and chip away at the establishment.
amash just repeats what the msm say, he will not achieve anything by agreeing with the regime.
Yeah I’m voting libertarian in the primaries now for certain and in the general election for better or worse I’m voting libertarian
We're almost all libertarian at heart!
I'm not a libertarian, but I want a viable alternative to both major parties. But looking at the comments, libertarians complaining that Amash or others aren't pure enough in their beliefs, I realize that libertarian infighting dooms the party and makes them look as petty as social justice activists or religious people fighting among themselves and trying to signal that they're purer than the other guy.
There is a big difference between Libertarians and the Libertarian Party. They just ran a Presidential candidate that called for anti-racism, which is wildly anti-Libertarian if you know the definition. Racism in order to achieve equity and correct past racism. They also tend to select their Presidential Candidate before half of the country has even voted in the primaries.
Over Trump's 4 years, Reason and the LP have shown themselves to be hypocrites. All they achieve is helping the major party candidate that mostly agrees with your views to lose by putting up a similar candidate that has no hope of winning.
@@KevinSmith-qi5yn Can we seriously not let the dems control the definition of anti-racism? I know we get barraged with loaded binary terms, and we need to learn how to define ourselves on our own terms.
Racism is not compatible with capitalism. It is an irrational feeling which clogs up the works. Ironically our backpedal for not baking that cake is Cancel Culture, which could become a proper invisible hand of the market if it ever leaves twitter and grows up.
The Dems do shove double standards through these social issues as an excuse for expanding government for shit that should already exist. That monopoly of thought is begging for competition.
@@KevinSmith-qi5yn they (or any other 3rd party) couldn't spoil an election if we had ranked choice voting.
@@MrHobbes08 Anti-racism is the perfect description for it. The world will eventually see it for what it is.
Thats why i advocate pushing a more mild classical liberal approach. Way more people could get on board and libertarians should atleast agree classical liberalism would be significantly better than the mess we have now.
We need to stop treating libertarianism as a religious cult and instead, a philosophy of "letting people be" the best we can as a country.
Wwrs. What would rothbard say
Excellent conversation. If only a fifth of American adults took the time to listen to this discussion this would be a very different country indeed. Kudos to Nick and Justin. Apologies for the adjectives. Get yer racism and your wokeism cured in less than two hours. Long live Liberty.
I disagree with Justin and Nick on the Dave Smith / LP issue.
Ok
Cool.
Neat
Lectures people about being libertarian, then calls for laws forcing people to do commerce.
Does Reason come in a flavor other than milquetoast?
BTW the Juneteenth thing is a strawman. I listen to loys of Mises caucus people and have heard no real opposition to it.
The ones who do complain about it should be watched closely for other dog whistles.
Pretty sure there was just some wonky outreach at some point (there was a flood of short stay bordertarians). Heard some gossip that expressed awareness of those issues, something about some paid recruiting URLs.
Our challenge is how to break out of these stale binary narratives to define us on our own terms.
Justin Amash is a snake politician....being associated with the LP is suicide for the party....actually for any party.
On the other hand Ron Paul was the best President we never had.
LP needs to get behind Amash
BTW, the libertarianism of the Libertarian Party is not about pushing political decisions down to the local old guard politicians, i.e., decentralization. The LP is about pushing decision to the individuals in a free market. The market is where valid decentralization occurs. See the last line of the LP Statement of Principles.
Can we just acknowledge how good of a camera angel they used for Justin
The overall flaw is that the more free a society is, the more debate you will have.
Why is that a flaw?
@@daltonbrasier5491 it’s a problem when you are trying to get everyone to agree.
@@jeffa7671 More debate is how you get more people to agree.
@@daltonbrasier5491 still need to have a healthy debate floor, which we don't have. Especially with all these loaded meme definition words we gotta figure out how to get around.
Jeff A None The constitution was designed in large part to limit the contexts in which “trying to make everyone agree” would be necessary. That’s how the European monarchies were. This was almost universally understood in America until like 5 years ago, when the “liberals” did a 180 on the first amendment and memory holed everything up to and including Charlie hebdo.
I'm not so sure that, as he says around 28:00, that people are really that libertarian. I think people are libertarian when it comes to restrictions on themselves ("leave me alone, let me do my own thing"), but are happy for others to be told what to do.
also his point about movies is kind of weak -- many movies involve handing over the keys to some militaristic central power to fight the bad guys.
So true man. Especially in these Covid times it was depressing how quickly and willingly the people fell into authoritarianism.
The problem is that libertarians have better things to do than waste their time in politics: like selling CBD lifestyle products or funneling VC capital thorough a pass through Blockchain to dodge the feds.
Justin amash: "you shouldnt push libertarian ideas that are controversial"
Edit: Yes, I know heroin legalisation is not controversial, you can stop telling me
He isn't wrong. If a libertarian were to go up to someone and say "Hello, I am Annelid Minor, I want to legalise heroin, privatise nukes and defund the police, vote for me please", they would be laughed out of the debating hall. It should be "We need to regulate heroin in the same way we do with tobacco and alcohol, lower taxes and reform the police" and then we can work our way forward.
@@thefrenchareharlequins2743 Ron Paul was cheered on as he told Wallace at a republican debate that we should legalize heroin. So youre just fucking wrong dude.
@@daltonbrasier5491 And how many votes did Ron Paul get in the primary?
@@daltonbrasier5491 Fair enough, though Paul did do a good job at tailoring it to the crowd he was facing.
@@thefrenchareharlequins2743 Thats my point. Ron Paul converted Millions of life long libertarians. Not by saying republican talking points, but by being controversial and telling the truth.
The LP can succeed and become a major force in the American Polical force when the follow the principles of Ron Paul, and go out and find libertarians who are willing to run for office and become prominent players in the party. When you have intelligent, liberty, freedom minded people like Justin Amash, Spike Cohen, Dave Smith, Larry Sharpe, and Martha Bueno, etc. The message needs to come together and have a set principle inspired by Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. It can work!!!
Nearly all serious Libertarians are pushed into the GOP because of how unserious the LP is. The only people left in the LP are those who have no interest in actually winning anything, only criticizing. The LP SHOULD be the largest party in the USA, but they can't stop chasing off serious contenders to the GOP or other 3rd party.
Identify how the LP is DIFFERENT from the establishment, hammer those points AND ONLY THOSE POINTS for the whole cycle...stop playing poli-sci thought games during interviews.
this party has a huge opportunity but until they start articulating tangible policies about real-world issues instead of just talking about Ayn Rand theories, they'll never be that successful. Talk less about "federalism" (which barely anyone understands) and more about how you plan to make sure people can afford health care.
People dont want to "afford" health care. They want it for free.
You sir have a brain and know how to use it. The party is unelectable because they seem to be more interested in utopia than an actual solutions to real world problems. These "problems" are usually solved by the market itself.
@@misternibbles7426 yes and even if the solution is to let the market solve the problem, that solution should be articulated in a plan and preferably even legislation. in the case of health care, an articulated plan may be something like "we plan to knock down the barriers to competition among providers by sponsoring legislation to do so". instead, what people hear is "our plan is to let the market sort it out" which is too vague and scary for most to get behind. at least that's my opinion.
Some people will always hate me, solely because I am Jewish and live in Israel.
I cannot do much about THAT.
However, I CAN emphasize the most important point about liberty in that; say what you will, but keep your hands off my SELF and my STUFF.
Juneteenth was a bad choice to nationally celebrate ending slavery. It is a local Texas holiday. Celebrating the announcement of the emancipation proclamation would have been a much better choice.
Or the ratification of the 13th amendment; since at least 2 states continued slavery months after Texas. Either way, Juneteenth is stupid word. Sounds like a 3 year old made it up. It should be called emancipation day, like the holiday called "emancipation day" in D.C.
Honey Badger that seems to be the trend now. Whataboutism, social distancing, fake news, misinformation... it’s hard to even say them out loud without cringing. “Juneteenth” is particularly grotesque as it is based on the calendar date, but renders the actual date completely ambiguous. The Newspeak words in 1984 are similarly childlike.
I really enjoy Amash, and I can't wait to one day vote for him as a presidential candidate
Easy, quit disagreeing with me
Sorry, Virginia, but what does it matter? Given the choice, almost no one votes Libertarian. We live in a country where we have to fight just to get on the ballot. We live in a country with, effectively, only one more party than the PRC. A little squabbling in our own party is the least of our worries.
Mises.
As a LPMC guy, no. This is one of many avenues to create some awareness, pull people over ect, but winning? Not a chance. The establishment would never allow it. I agree with Matt Erikson (@kingpilled) on a lot of his points regarding this. "The problem isnt that people dont know about libertarianism, its that they do, and have rejected because it offers them nothing."
Juneteenth is a clever back-door way to remind everyone of slavery. Yes, there will be talk of the slaves being freed, but it is also an opportunity for race advocates to reopen the wounds of slavery, which just increases racial tension. That said, I don't see why it should be a significant issue in libertarian policy.
Those wounds aren't quite healed yet. The tossing around piss poor watered down versions of CRT isn't helping though. Neither do the pseudo-intellectual grifters like Robin Diangelo.
Juneteenth holds value as a recognized holiday. Just scroll on by and let them have their moment without adding to the other side of shit flinging.
@@MrHobbes08 Nothing that has been done can be undone. The scales of the world can never truly be balanced. Better to face the world as it is and move forward as best as we can.
@@mondovicium So lets give the Dems some competition for that monopoly of thought they got on these social issues which they stretch with double standards as an excuse to expand goverment for shit that should already exist
One more federal holiday just gives me an extra day off each year, and I have a reason to bbq. If we keep it in a celebratory light, like the 4th of July, I think it’s great. It’s just a day to celebrate that we did the right thing as a country.
If we use it as race bait bullshit, that’s a whole different story.
juneteenth "independence day" is a trick to subvert the actual independence day and argue that the country was built by slaves therefore repenting for slavery should be important message of the independence day and not freedom. Which is what the 1619 project argues which has been discredited by academics.
Its like when germany switched from being proud of being german to being sorry for ww2. This is the goal of juneteenth to turn the nation into a serf class to non white people who have never been slaves to apologize for slavery....FOREVER....WITH YOUR MONEY...WITH HATE SPEECH LAWS....WITH NO FREEDOM.
The LP Needs to focus on local elections. Pick one major purple city, something purple and focus on winning local elections there. Prove that Freedom makes things better. Have a success to be able to hold up as an example.
And that's your problem. You keep looking to split off Republican votes as if a 3-party system is viable or even desirable. Go to a hard Blue area and give people a choice for the first time in decades. Target the Marxists base for once.
Purple cities is where we'd be least likely to win. That's where partisan politics is most entrenched. The examples of the LP winning usually happen in either A. Nonpartisan races, B. Multi-winner districts (for example, 3 seats up for grabs, 4 candidates), and finally, C. In partisan races, Libertarians can win when there's one major party candidate and it's a two way race. The one state rep the LP has elected as a Libertarian, challenged an incumbent Democrat and won. This should be where the LP pours resources is districts where there are multiple winners, uncontested incumbents, etc.
Justin is new to the Party itself so I can forgive him, but he undermined his own argument. He said people will latch onto profound ideas and you don't need to bring your own opinion into it, but none of those tweets he mentioned did that. They all simply stated profound facts. Bringing up soft easy topics of discussion have gotten the LP almost nowhere in 50 years. He may instinctively regard it as unprofessional, but it's really effective utilization of provocative truths. We are a completely different way of viewing government, and we are going to come off as profound no matter what. It's better to stir up real controversy over these truths and have it widely spoken about than to just have it die down in an echo chamber of passive agreement. It's time to release the flood gates and really make headlines in 2024...
Democratic Party, and G.O.P. are actually one codependent party, or O.C.P. They're both run by corporate lobbyists more than ever since the Robert's court now. Then I don't get it how Israel is allowed a lobby. Would the Libertarian Party get rid of the money in politics? That would shrink unjust lobbying in government I think.
I'm excited about the future of libertarianism but I can't get excited about a blue pilled libertarian. We just came off a year of lockdowns and the government is becoming increasingly authoritarian year after year.
Amash: "in one sense we have a much more libertarian country than we've ever had"
well shit, I guess we've never had it so good. 🙄🙄🙄
All politicians are beyond a joke.
That long sailed of trust is long gone in my eyes. I REALLY hate them ALL 🤬
Sorry not sorry Justin but we Paleolibertarians are sick of the direction that the LP has been and either want the WHOLE CAKE to leader it in the direction of Mises, Rothbard and Hope, or create a whole new movement entirely
But Justin Amash is our best chance in doing that.
@@brianmcandrew7374 No he isn’t, firstly Amash is not a paleo and made it a point to be stand against it and sides openly with what’s wrong with the LP. Again we Paleolibertarians want a part of Mises, Rothbard and Hoppe not Amash and Jeffrey Tucker
@@brianmcandrew7374 a party of Mises, Rothbard and Hoppe
Hoppe was a coping embittered monarchist
@@MrHobbes08 lmao someone hasn’t read Hoppe
Glad JA is staying active.... Such a talent!
the only thing he has talent is on sucking off the establishment.
This guy defending this government system took me form Libitereanism to anarchist.
Then you can argue that your not willing to work in the system.
I had a stroke trying to read your spelling of libertarianism.
Anarchist or not, whether this form of govt works or not, we must fight for reform with the tools at our disposal. And anyone using those tools knows that they work.
Defending the intentioned hierarchy isn't the same as defending the politicians that inhabit it.
I'm already in the anarchist pool, but you still need those baby steps.
XD
“To hell with it all, it all sucks. ANARCHYYY!”
Here's a tweet without adjectives:
Child labor laws should be revised or abolished. They don't help Children. They prevent them from getting a good job, on-job experience & ability to earn some money early in their life.
That is not an edgelord comment. That's simply the truth. And if you are part of the libertarian party who don't believe in that then that's your prerogative but claiming people are edgelords for solid opinions which even Rothbard would have backed up is not antithetical to being a libertarian.
That would have been leagues better than what was actually posted
As soon as you stop being controlled opposition, you might have a chance.
I am appalled by the lack of vote audits that led to Jan 6th and extremely appalled by the way we have allowed Jan 6th to be characterized and prosecuted. And no, being anti-woke is not a problem and doesn't impede folks from saying libertarian things. Juneteenth is just idiotic because of the facts about it. That we should celebrate when some tiny corner of the USA finally realized slavery had ended is just silly. And no, again, the freedom of association should not disappear from any entity simply because it has a store or offers a service. Any non government entity has the right to be as bigoted as they wish and that really is a hard line stance that libertarians need to hold. As soon as we start allowing government to say with whom we can, must or must not (see COVID) associate, we are lost as a nation.
Most people crudely labeled as libertarians, in my experience, are classical liberals who became disaffected with party politics. Amash advocates for a Libertarian Party that with many of the unprincipled features that led us to becoming unaffiliated voters in the first place. It is astonishing how little he seems to understand or relate to this demographic. Jo Jorgensen, Gary Johnson, even Jill Stein never had that disconnect, even when I disagreed with them. Will definitely continue disregarding the Libertarian Party and Amash, who hilariously voted to impeach trump over the russiagate farce.
He stated that the purpose of the 1st amendment was to protect unpopular speech. I don't think that's the case. I thought the 1st amendment, along with the rest of the bill of rights, was in support of the original text of the constitution. That is, "the above described set of policies and governance is only truly a democracy if these 10 things are true." The bill of rights is not about some "starter pack" of laws, but capturing the assumptions the framers of the constitution had.
In the case of the first amendment, it's not to protect unpopular speech, but to protect speech which may be unpopular with whomever is in power of the government. That is, speech which is seen as a threat.
Amash is right that it ties to a general ethos of liberalism (so retaliation or using "soft-government" institutions...such as appealing to employers of people you dislike to get them fired...is contradictory), it's not the purpose behind the 1st amendment, itself.
The bill of rights was adopted in order to get all tbe confederate states to ratify the constitution. The first amendment comes from English tradition and limits Congress’s authority to restrict speech, religion, press, assembly, and right to petition. You are right that the English tradition never protected things like libel/defamation/obscenity/etc. But because we wrote our constitution down, the text is more controlling than in England
"If things are reconstituted, the Constitution will not be as Libertarian.... Those who want to tear it down, they imagine some kind of Utopia, when what we'll get is a dystopia..."
Very, very, very true.
It's not libertarian now the 13th allows for slavery and don't get me started on taxation. It could be though with a 28th amendment that says, "Government shall not initiate force."
@@iamchillydogg If you can push through a 28th amendment, more power to you. The problem is that, if the Constitution were re-written today, it probably wouldn't contain this 28th amendment. There would be more bad things. The new order wouldn't consult you to make sure they got things right.
The question is not whether the Constitution is perfect. The question is whether anything written today, at this particular political moment, is likely to be better or worse.
@@Rodya29
Well yeah if we wrote an amendment that says, "Government shall not initiate force.", it would be perfect. 🤩
Justin Amash used to represent me, what a cool dude, he should help Steve Johnson in the Michigan house of representatives.
Amash is pretty naive in thinking that most people are libertarians. No, most people are partisan or non partisan hypocrites who claim to be "libertarian on" this issue or that issue, including independents, because they want to justify their own moral conscience without being fully moral. They are 1/4th libertarian and 3/4th "too cool and pragmatic to be libertarian". We ought to shame them for advocating for, for example, jailing people for non violent offences. We are talking about matters of life and death, on matters of freedom and slavery, not debating on the best flavour of koolaid.
The implications of libertarian philosophy put to question all the sacred cows of the progressive state projects of the 20th century, most of which even Republicans have at least half-way bought into. To suggest that "most people are libertarians" is either an attempt to make libertarian philosophy into something much less radical, or is just a straight up delusion.
Most people want their own liberty. Their neighbors liberty is dangerous and must be stopped.
That is without considering money. For a promise of an extra 600$. Dems got votes from nominally antiwar voters. Imagine voting to continue the genocide in Yemen in exchange for a promise of 600$. While you lecture others about your compassion.
Amash for LPNC Chair
Losing more respect for this guy. Fruity egalitarianism and inoffensive centrism is not libertarianism. The idea that rich white guys aren't affected by civil asset forfeiture is objectively false. The LP needs principled candidates and messaging. Make a real difference. Inspire people.
There are several problems with the LP.
First, as stated, they cannot decide if they are a serious party or a protest/activist movement.
Second, few realize that they are composed of Libertarian leftists and Libertarian rightists. They don't get along very well.
Third, practically all Libertarians are highly individualistic and not pretty averse to being part of groups.
Last, I do think that the RNC likely fucks around with the LP. Dave Smith poked this bear at the SoHo Forum debate he did.
I think that the LP are like the Wildings in GoT: they need a Mance Rader...which just isn't there yet.
Amash for MI Governor!!!
He’s not insane!
@@syruptishuss facts!
To dream the impossible dream...
After watching the whole video. Seems like Amash wants a libertarian party run by Sarwark and to create a big tent party that will mimic the democrat and Republican parties in size etc. If thata his stance then I don't support him. I support a leader who will speak without fear and not an empty suit. Amash should go back to the republican party.
I'd rather see him run for governor than president.
Different factions of Libertarians hate each other and eat their own even more than Socialists. This is the big problem. There are too many in different factions who are so ideological about their specific beliefs and philosophy that it is hard to see at the moment how they come together and get over the ideology.
Yes there are two big narratives and they run deep.
The fact that the LP party currently has less direction and focus than a quantum particle and Jo Jorgensen is a two faced politician that talks a good talk but will put a knife in your back without hesitation or a second though, is why I left the LP party after being a 28 year member and became an independent. Unfortunately the LP party is a failure and won't have any success until it actually has a real focus, structure and a cohesive direction again.
I'm not a libertarian (and the definition of the term is tainted), but I'd only consider taking it seriously if the Mises caucus was in charge. LP in it's current form isn't worth acknowledging.
Gen Z libretarian = Please Tread On Me
Big "L" (national party) vs little "l" libertarianism is the distinction
I disagree that the Libertarian Party shouldn't have activism. I think we should be involved in what's going on in our communities and states and holding the officials/bureaucrats accountable. Too many people go into politics have the wrong motivations or become corrupted by the system. Activism can bring people into the party when they see Libertarian activism making a difference.
I agree that the rhetoric is a problem. I suppose there will always be individuals from all sides making superficial and juvenile remarks, such as making fun of appearances. There are people who call themselves Libertarian who are just as ridiculous with their criticism as those on the left and right extremes.
"Chairperson" I didn't know reason uses the language of the ideologically possessed.
lp needs money to market
can I get a summary on what "civil war" is going on?
Around 2010-2015, the libertarian party was just a home for guilty republicans/democrats. They'd disagree with the DNC/RNC party platform on one thing and think that made them a libertarian. As a result, the only thing you'd hear out of the LNC was boring crap like "Racism is bad". In 2020, not one word against the lockdowns came out from the LNC, absolutely shameful.
At the same time, there were actual true libertarian podcasters with huge audiences. Audiences whose size was comparable to the LNC itself. Podcasters who weren't afraid to say the truth, like "the real criminals in our society are the police". Or "get the government 100% out of schools". Or "taxation is theft". Or "John McCain never saw a war he didn't like, he was not a hero, he was a monster". Or "the military isn't protecting us, they are the enemy". Things that are not "acceptable" to say, but are the truth.
So Michael Heiss convinced several of the podcasters to join the party and bring their audiences. And the new membership has been voting out the old leadership. Two national party chairs have left in absolute disgrace for being exposed. Entire state chapters that were basically "democrats trying to be cool" have been cleaned out.
Justin Amash was a Republican. He was pro national security state. In the law few days of his office he changed his party affiliation to "libertarian" to steal the title "first libertarian congressman" which he didn't deserve. He was never elected as a libertarian. And this video is Justin Amash still trying to push the old "don't say anything that will offend lobbyists or donors" strategy of failing by never fighting.
Reason/Cato are basically the old lukewarm group, finger wagging and saying "that's not proper". Places like Mises Institute, Antiwar.com, the Dave Smith / Ron Paul / Tom woods audience are the new group, actually throwing punches at the establishment and refusing to be language policed.
Trumpies are not libertarians. The "alt right" are not libertarians. Period. There is a fundamental difference between capitalists who just want low taxes and estate taxes and ACTUAL libertarians... The difference is liberty. The free market is a means to that end which is freedom and liberty, it is not the end. This is not for greedy businessmen to exploit, it is to protect the little guy. To encourage small business, to encourage small and fringe opinions, fringe religions, fringe beliefs. To ever think that anti-muslim anti immigrant anti civil rights anti accountability is somehow a faithful representation of this party is a fucking joke.
Those Muslims and immigrants you want to let in will vote you out of office, take your precious liberty, and work in their own self interest
We need the libertarian argument for life (anti-abortion) and and ending all cruel jails.
"Can the libertarian party be a major contender"
No, as long as people can be bribed by the coercive power of the government to take money from A and give to B - government will grow.
I would gladly campaign for Amash as an L. But I would hope that someone like Rand Paul or Elon Musk would run as a R or D to get a shot at winning, even if it was tainted by one of the parties I despise. Ive only ever voted for Ls. Sad but true
Elon Musk is born in South Africa.
Put the Principles into Action
The abolition of all ballot access laws as censorship is not a matter of "purist" fidelity to abstract principle, but rather a convergence of principle and pragmatic strategy. Overcoming the quotas imposed by ballot censorship is dead weight sunk cost that does nothing to persuade voters to choose Libertarian candidates. Advocating for the abolition of ballot censorship could persuade some voters to finance and vote for Libertarian candidates.
I say this with the perspective of a co-founder of the Libertarian Party and Chair of the Bylaws Committee at the founding convention in 1972.
You just want to promote people.
Correction: Tasha’s husband is the best known member.
Until the colors of juneteenth are celebrated with Red White and Blue and flying the American flag, it is not a holiday for freedom.