Responding to YOUR comments! #2 (what books won't we read, why does Will hate male characters.)
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
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0:00 - Intro
6:12 - Will we read the Savior’s sequel?
11:02 - Books won’t we read for the channel
22:21 - Opinion on the trope-ification of books
32:51 - Line between fanfic and ‘literature?’
46:08 - What Maria thinks of Gail Carson Levine
52:22 - Male characters Will DOES like?
1:00:16 - Origin of our love for hot-bitchy-girl / monster boyfriend
1:10:38 - CAN you write a good W40K book?
1:22:18 - Narcissism in the Savior’s Sister
1:34:53 - How to write strong atmosphere
1:48:08 - Miscellaneous finishing up 
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I dislike trope based advertising because often I'm left with no idea what the book is actually about. If the cover art doesn't spell it out, I don't even know if it's SFF or mundane.
Sff?
@@chrissyosozzy6465 Science Fiction and Fantasy. I started seeing the acronym around social media in the last year and adopted it as easier to type.
I enjoy public domain remixes, especially Jane Austen/Pride and Prejudice ones. Authors go off in so many directions. Favorites from the last year:
- Pride and Premeditation - a working class murder mystery
- Most Ardently - Lizzie is a transman named Oliver and is only out to Jane and Charlotte
this is a very random comment but ever since i’ve discovered your podcast a few months ago it has become one of my favourite things on the internet. i struggle to find interesting and enticing literary discussions online (i’m picky lol) and you guys hit it out of the park every single time. not only you make valid points, but you’re also very entertaining. it basically feels like talking about books with a bunch of friends, and it’s nice to tune in (especially since i don’t have a lot of friends since i moved to another city).
i particularly love your song of achilles because as someone who studied ancient greek/ancient greek literature i have lot of bones to pick with the ‘modern retelling of greek myths’ trend. (will, your rage is totally justified!) speaking of, would you ever consider reviewing another one of these ‘modern greek myth retellings’ (not necessarily by miller)? i think there’s room for some interesting discussions about how certain contemporary authors tackle these myths and the cultural context in which they came to be, and i would love to hear your opinions on this.
sorry for the long winded comment (i think it’s my first ever youtube comment ahah), just wanted to share some love! i often put on your vids to keep me company during the day so you’re definitely one of my comfort channels
This podcast is so great 💕 Maria’s origin lore for monster boyfriend is so relatable, and I love Will’s thesis on tsundere appeal
thanks for answering my question!! Love you guys!! I’m hoping that Moreci surprises us and goes into a psychologically intriguing direction with Leila’s character
Johnlock, huh? And now I want to see those characters on a mysterious island inhabited by a smoke monster.
You are a favourite comfort channel! I always lurk rather than participate, but I love watching everything :)
I personally prefer a fantasy book with good atmosphere over one with super complex worldbuilding. Not that you can't have both, but when it comes to feeling immersed in the setting, the worldbuilding can be really simplistic yet still feel immersive if the atmosphere is well-done. I'm kind of a weird fantasy reader in that super complex and detailed worldbuilding isn't really why I read the genre, and though I have enjoyed books like that, I am more likely to feel immersed in the story if it has good atmosphere.
Entertaining, intelligent critique of books is always fun to tune into. Of course you're a favorite!
The great thing about Katie only reading TSC before the new one's out is that you'll be able to provide scientific evidence that TSS was unnecessary to read TSA.
I love your discussion of fic x literature and how you got your differentiation, its so nice to listen to some well thought out examinations of this kind of stuff without going "fic perfection" or "fic root of all evil"
My hottest take is that a lot of the last ~10+ years of bleed between the fic space and professional publishing is, while not the ultimate cause bc this has always happened to some degree, definitely a factor in a lot of the most common complaints I've seen people have about popular fiction lately. There's a lot of really cool stuff people like about fanfic and how it can be different from tradlit (e.g. "I want a book that reads like fanfiction" often meaning "I want a character-focused book that makes me Feel Feelings"), but folks often don't even realize the critical differences in medium because they're "both writing", and so you end up importing a LOT of the Fandom Habits (Derogatory) along with the Fandom Quirks (Appreciative)
i think a big one for me is how, with the lack of a "pillar" for "fic-energy" books to individually be fanfic OF, there's seems to have been a bit of a reverse-engineered meta built on the most common character tropes people like in fanfics? Like how no matter what fandom you read in, there's always a huge pile of fics that... kind of shave down canon personalities in favor of "i want these characters to do a grumpyxsunshine coffeeshop meetcute" type stuff lmao. And since everyone in this little meta space knows the general outline of, say, a Shadowdaddy, its easy to color in a few "unique" traits without having to alter the general base construction and get a mostly-passable, technically-legible book, and people feel like they "get" it in that "fill in my blorbo from my shows" way. And since the popularity of these tropes are decided by the Fandom Masses (only a little derogatory), they're fundamentally easily understood at a glance and imminently digestible, and often fun to munch if you dont want to chew too hard lmao
This wouldn't be an issue i think, if it wasn't something that was currrently shmearing across the larger YA, Fantasy, and Romance publishing spaces. There's nothing wrong with having a meta to play with (like you mentioned, it is very common in Romance, in self-pubbed spaces in particular and they are PROFITABLE), and it can be a fun way to practice your writing. But i come to books because i want them to be told a fun story that goes deeper INTO tropes, but these barely ever skim past the surface of them. And it feels difficult to tell which ones could possibly be good bc marketing has figured out "oh! well if we keep just making things with these templates, its easy predictable money", because thats never failed them before lol.
So yeah, definitely feel you on the "no YA" thing 😂
Oh you answered my question!! I'm so happy to hear your thoughts on Gail Carson Levine. She's great at setting the tone and world of her books early on. As a kid I was obsessed with Fairest, a snow white retelling, but I haven't read it recently so I can't say whether it holds up as well as Ella Enchanted. Thanks for responding ☺️
i love meal prepping while watching this channel. the best!
Not to cite The Deep Magic of the Harry Potter fandom, but: The Mortal Instruments did not start out as a Harry Potter fanfic. Cassie Cla(i)re used parts of her fanfic, The Draco Trilogy, in the books (including one famous passage where Draco/Jace talks about his father giving him a pet falcon), but the books are not the fic. You can see the obvious influence, but the books have their own worldbuilding and most of the characters (besides the Draco and Pettigrew analogues imo) feel original. This is a similar situation to The Atlas Six. The author of those books also wrote HP fanfic, and there is a clear influence from her James/Lily fic on them. But the book itself is a separate thing.
If you're going to read a fic turned book for the podcast, I'd recommend The Hurricane Wars. That started out as Star Wars (I bet you CAN guess which ship) fic. The writer completely changed the setting to make it a fantasy novel, but from what I've seen, there are still obvious fic writing style problems in it, which could make for an interesting discussion.
I also get the impression that the Manacled stans would not be happy with it being referred to as a "noncon" fic because they think it's a beautiful, tragic love story, due to (plot twist redacted).
excited to watch this but so nervous i get called out 😂
Lol same
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if you can so easily file off the serial numbers are you even really writing fanfiction? I fall into Will’s line of thinking. Glad to be seen
I completely agree with Will's assessment of male characters, though I do make exceptions for snarky villain boys. It can't be snarky heroes. Loki is the definition of sassy-btchy boy, and he's great. Tony Stark's quips are like nails on a chalkboard.
27:37 What second world latine fantasy book are you talking about I want to read it! (If I haven't already lol)
Yes, Maria! You are not alone in re-watching "Beauty and the Beast" as a kid! Though for me a big part of it was the whole household turned into objects trying to get them together. Lumiere amused me to no end 😂 But yeah, there's something to be said for the trope of someone seeing beyond external appearances, because down to it, that's what monster boyfriend is! I think we all kind of want that deep down and it gets even more stringent as you grow up (and old) and realize that beauty fades and what you're left with is personality.
On the comparison between "Nettle & Bone" and "Uprooted", you're spot on! Coincidentally, I read them back to back about a week or two ago. I loved them both tbh, but yeah, "Nettle & Bone" has a mix of humour injected that takes away from the creepiness of the goblin market or the kings' tombs. I didn't really mind it as it made Marra more real because a lot of people use humour to cope with rough times. It also sort of fit with the ironic take the whole book had on fairytale princesses and their fates.
Interesting video, thank you. A number of times, you guys referenced Lindsay Ellis. I take it, therefore, that in a few months, when it's published, you're going to cover the third Noumena book, right?
Manacled is going to be published as it's own book
Sherlock has to investigate in the glades and watson is sick with a cold, and sherlock crosses paths with steampunk willie
stumbling in situations, and has to require his unlikely assistence as partner to uncover that criminal organisation there :)
Steampunk willie visiting the opera and it being the start of tan unlikely frienship upon stumbling into the tunnels :O
I love these so much. ❤
Update: I agree that the over-marketing of books by tropes needs to stop. And I do want to point out that the authors who write like that feel like the kind of people who claim to be "girl's girls" but are actually very internally misogynistic and catty. I don't know it just seems interesting that there is and can be that overlap.
Update 2: I didn't know Maria was Greek. Is this why, The Savior's series bothered you so much? (Outside of it just being bad.)
The selling books over tropes is definitly bad if it gets to the points that authors write tropes over stories, and its still acceptable.
ike comparing books to popular books, like yeah it should be at least someone comparable, book i get it, but tropes say nothing, and pretty often even are misleading, and wrong. Like can enemies to lovers at least have the people start antagonistic with each other and show how they come to be lovers, not hooking up, lovers.
Where went the ascribing emotions in marketing like "it will rip your heart out" or "medicine for your heart" or "a thrilling tale of love and lies" , "a gripping lovestory" Or even "the emotional tale of maria and the handsome mysterious stranger" that is still open enough what happens.
like its not hard to market with emotional not tropey descriptions alone.
The tag-ification of books is a better term than trope-ification. Then people won't hit you with the banger:"All books have tropes!"
Tag-ification is a real peoblem. There is a diffrence between a book vagly fitting into a trope and a book written to have specific tropes.
The latter is not that good.
It workes in fanfic, becasue fanfic is often the tropy version of a more nuanced text.
Manacled is really dark but I think there would be an interesting conversation about the PLAGARISM it commits on The Handmaid’s Tale which is insaneeeee. Like how can that even get published like that?
Don’t necessarily agree with the Wakanda take since its more so readable as a what if for African resources being fully in control of the various African nations but put into one country (considering the tribe representation in the film varying from Tuareg to South Africa)
I'm with you, Maria. Molly and Sherlock all the way, though I ship them platonically. John is a condescending duche and I don't know why people ship them.
I know this is an old ass video but I just discovered yall going through the backlog
, Have you guys ever read the night circus ?
On the topic of Avatar, you guys should read the Avatar Kyoshi books. They’re not bad, and would probably do well with the algorithm.
She did! Anne Rice and I’m actually embarrassed to say I read the whole thing
Oh, and my people from another time don’t speak in anachronistic language. So, in case you get bored, and want something different, I suggest me.
Ι missed this because I was at work 😢. Next time
Hi guys! I just wanted to let you know that the version of this video you uploaded on Spotify is only one minute long!
If you are still looking for boy books for boys to read for the channel, consider Empire of Silence by Christopher Ruocchio. The series has been getting some buzz on RUclips recently and the penultimate novel in the series is coming out in April, so doing this book could please the algorithm gods. It’s a very ambitious space opera with heavy Dune inspiration. Arguably, it is more of a Dune polemic because the author sort of sets out to reconstruct a chosen one/messiah figure. I would love to hear your tales on it.
ROFL The Beauty trilogy ahahahahahahaha. Yeah no it's absolutely NOT what I would call a 'fun' read LOL. I read that when I was a lot younger, out of a morbid curiosity regarding erotic literature: it's straight up extreme BDSM with a ton of dubious consent, but it's not even self-aware like Ice Planet Barbarians is.
You guys are cool
I love that Will likes tall queens ❤
So there is still hope the channel will cover the Horus Heresy?
DRAMIONE/ZUTARA!! I will die on the hill that those pairings are superior to the canon.
I’m here listening to all the things they don’t like and they mention tree guys and I’m just like “my male characters are actually bad guys, I have a tree man, I try and stay away from tropes.” Notice me my parasocial darlings. I’m sad, I know.
Have you ever thought of picking up some middle grade novels
Will, ella enchanted is old ya. think sabriel. its good writing not just a good story.
Love you guys but comparing a modern day author to hitler is a bit silly and is only adding to the polarization of conversations that need to happen between the sides
JKR is a transphobic asshole and due to her unfortunate influence has actively harmed the transgender community 😐
Stop crossbreeding cats with dinosaurs Will. You reas jurresic park! no!
Stop painting you art with human bloods cady!
Stop letting data, marmeline and pumpkin celebrate wild parties maria!
uuugh "narcissist viewpoint" shut upppp
love will's response to this!!!!!
i do wish people wouldn't base their knowledge of NPD off internet videos
psych creators/grifters are the worst. signed, cluster b bitch