Games as Lit. 101 - Romance in Video Games
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- When video games allow the player to engage in romance with the characters, some say there are some inherent problems with how it works. Let's find out.
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My first experience with romance in a video game is what made me truly realize how powerful interactive storytelling really is. I'd always loved games, since I was a kid, and valued the stories they told, but it wasn't until Dragon Age: Origins and my romance with Alistair that it really clicked.
My Alistair sacrificed himself to make sure I didn't do something that would have killed me. He made a choice that I had no control over and it wrecked me (like, I was physically off for about a week, and emotionally distraught for a month or two; but its okay, because sad is happy for deep people). It showed me not only the power of interactive storytelling, but I think it helped put me on a path to learning to be okay with emotions and romance (something I was very... not comfortable with in real life) in a safe way.
I'll always love Alistair, and I'll always tear up when I listen to 30 Seconds to Mars' "This is War" thanks to that game. :)
Success in romance is doing all for the approval of the character and in the end he brakes up with you, leaves the inquisition and says he is going to destroy the world to rebuild the elven empire....
The way he said “hello!” at the start was super satisfying
I remember my first real experience with romance and sex in any active way (not just in a book or on a movie screen) was in playing Fable when I was around 11 years old. There were women in pretty dresses, and I could give them gifts. As I gave them gifts, they got little hearts above their heads. I liked seeing the hearts grow bigger, so I kept giving gifts and using certain expressions with them. I found out I could marry the women, so I would go searching for the one I thought was the prettiest, marry her and give her the biggest, best house I could. I did this because it seemed like it was the "right" thing to do, as I'd been told marriage was a good thing. Then I found out about the... intimate moments you could have with your wife. The whole thing was both confusing and intriguing.
All the more confusing and intriguing given that I was a girl.
I have the genetic and mental wiring to be heterosexual. I find men attractive. But I've also noticed a fainter but still present sexual and romantic interest in women as I've grown up. In some ways, I suspect my lifelong passion for gaming may have been a factor. Games like Fable where the player is a male leads to the player seeing the game's story and world from a male view, including relationships. For those in their late teens or adulthood, it's simple to make the distinction between the things that are valued by the player character and the things valued by themselves, but for children it can be harder.
This may all be speculation. All I know for certain is, the girls with the pale skin and dark hair had the prettiest dresses in Fable and now I have a thing for pale, petite brunettes.
Iyrsiiea Interesting. The idea that video games can increase empathy and understanding for other people groups is nothing new, but I think this is the first I've heard of them inspiring a bit of bi-curiosity. While I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with that, I can see this as a pretty good argument for diversity in games; the inability to relate to your own gender must have been a confusing experience at 11 years old.
A game that recently got me wrapped up in the romance was actually The Witcher 3. Maybe it was because I wasn't expecting it since the first two games were very much "hey bang everyone!". But I absolutely loved the characterization of both Triss and Yennefer. And
SPOILER ALERT:
The scene where you turn down Yennefer was probably one of the most heart wrenching things I've experienced in a game. It just felt so genuine and mirrored several experiences I had myself.
Britton Wooton I didn't read past the break because I hate spoilers and am currently playing The Witcher 2 in an attempt to catch up, but I'm VERY glad to hear the third game fixed that. I'm not too far into 2 yet, but the first one was... not great in that regard. Turning sex into what basically amounts to a series of sidequests to collect softcore images is... less than respectful to the women involved and the act of sex itself. So I'm glad to hear the third game addresses it, at least.
On my first playthrough, I actually did the ending where SPOILER ALERT:
You choose both of them and end up with neither.
Though I wanted Geralt to be happy and fulfilled, I actually preferred this ending because of how much Triss and Yen got to go off on their own and not settle for Geralt, and how Geralt had to define who he was outside of being a womanizer.
I did do a second playthrough with Triss, and liked it a lot, especially the part where Geralt moves for her career. But it didn't have the same significance as both ladies going off to be their badass selves!
I actually found that the first person I ever came to be attracted to(real life or otherwise) was Dorian from DA:I. It took me off guard, because when I first saw his in-game design, I thought he looked kinda ridiculous. With his undercut, and curly mustache, and sparkly, mono-sleaved jumper-thing, I wasn't instantly impressed. As it turns out, I actually ended up developing a legitimate crush on this fictional character. Out of all the companions, I found that Dorian was the easiest to gain approval from(for me at least). His sense of humor resonates with me, and throughout the game, we seemed to have the same moral and tactical stances.
I'm a massive sucker for choice romance in a game, probably because that was what I grew up with. One of the first games I ever owned for myself was a copy of Harvest Moon I got when I was 7 or 8, and I used to send love letters to the other villagers in Animal Crossing only to be frustrated when they didn't seem to understand the sentiment. I think I thought that if I sent the right combination of sentiments I could eventually get a cute wedding or something, because I was a goofy little kid.
Having fleshed out romance options in a game honestly increases my interest in playing the game tenfold, because I love solid character writing and the feeling of getting to know someone and be charmed by them. Just recently I started playing DA:O for the first time, and I made my Warden a man and had accordingly planned to romance Zevran. After about one conversation with Alistair I was so taken with him (in part because he reminds me a lot of my own boyfriend) that I went out of my way to mod the game to allow male-Warden/ Alistair romance.
i wonder if he was talking about katawa shoujo at the end when talking about "not immediately rushing to solve LI's problems for her" and "letting a girl pursue her passion can make you grow apart"
"Alone With You" is a good example of a prominent interactive romance within a video game's narrative.
I'd never heard of it, but it looks interesting! I'll check it out!
I was really, really intrigued by how you'd tackle this one, and I'm not disappointed :D Good job!
Good! I'm glad. I was certainly more careful in writing it than most episodes, and I really liked how the visual novel stylings worked out. So I'm glad you liked it as well. ^_^
Your wife has managed to give me a heart attack twice
Why doesn't this have more views? This is my favorite video of yours!
+TheGhoulian My earlier videos are having trouble catching up to the viewcounts of my newer ones. Also even then I only get a modest amount of views. But yes, this is one of my personal favorite of the weekly episodes, I think. Glad you think so too!
Hi Game profesor, i really liked this episode, i wanted to point your attention to the games on op rainfall from the wii, as i think they have intresting mechanics and stories faced towards romance and relationships, pandora's tower where you have to keep your love intrest from turning into a monster (dynamic focused) and last story where you develop a relationship through the game (plot focused).
I make a cameo as a love interest!
Wonderful!
(I'm the one on the right.)
And if someone else wants to appear, the link to the Patreon is in the description!
Ya know, it's funny, I'm playing Mass Effect (1) right now and it's true that I find Tali far more interesting and likeable than the two girls the game seems to be throwing at me.
Yeah, that's a common reaction. I actually really liked Ashley (once you help her get over her racism), but most guys just wanted Tali. Which is why they added her in the following games. And she is adorable.
Games As Literature Well, snap... I should probably end my relationship with Liara. I figured I'd settle for the next best thing but I don't want to screw myself in the future, hahaha.
Well without spoiling things... I wouldn't worry about it. You'll have a chance to move on from any relationships from the first game. Mass Effect 2 has some major changes at the beginning.
Games As Literature
Ahh, I see. Well, good to know.
I suppose a problem is how you can possibly establish agency of the individual you are trying to romance in the game. It the cartoon drawing you used, it boils down to winning enough points, which means doing enough of the "right" things to win them. In these cases, these right thing is predetermined. So I guess it can feel like you're trying to "game" the romance characters by jumping through the correct hoops, instead of understanding the character as an individual with agency. I don't know how this would be solvable since the designers probably have to create the events of the romance, which, in turn, cements a predetermined number of hoops the player must jump through. A bold solution would be adding an element of uncertainty to whether or not the romance is successful, but would likely be mechanically frustrating.
Tali Vas Normandy s2
I loved how enthusiastic she was about the ship, the mission. I was pretty upset during Mass Effect 1 that I could not try anything with her.
But at the same time, I sorta got disappointed that I couldn't give her attention during the missions and learn new stuff about her. It was underwhelming to see that after you sleep with her, there's almost no new content
I remember playing Harvest Moon and getting introduced to video game romance that way. It was actually interesting thinking back on it now, since I spent a lot of time romancing the guy by visiting him everyday, giving gifts, watching the cute cut scenes when they randomly (before I knew what scripting was) happened, and feeling genuinely jealous when my rival for that guy would show up. Lol. I also remember getting to the max with him and proposed multiple time, only to get rejected because I didn't fulfill all the requirements, but after I'd done it to be with him, I think it was one of the most satisfying gaming experiences (at the time) when the wedding scene played. So after watching your video, I think I can relate to the points you make regarding the naturalism of the romance (based on my experience) rather than the point system.
So I guess I'm just curious about what your first experience was with this concept?
silvermoon2134 That's... actually a good question. The first I remember off the top of my head was Mass Effect, but I want to say there was something else before that. The Sims, maybe, but apparently it didn't leave too big an impression.
My wife's first experience with this concept was with Alistair in Dragon Age: Origins, so needless to say it was far more powerful (and traumatizing, in her case) than mine.
On of the first examples of a romantic relationship in a game would have to be in FF10, between Ti-(I don't really remember and not important) and Yuna. However, I didn't get to invested in this story arc because I didn't really get to play too much of FF10. Though I never completed FF8 either, I did play enough of it to be struck deeply by the relationship between Squall and Rinoa. Squall seemed to be a quiet individual who had nothing to focus on but his duty as a member of SeeD. In a real world since, a person who puts so much attention on any kind of occupation, that person puts a handicap on other parts of there lives, even to the point of disabling those parts completely. Squall never expressed his thoughts, emotions and interests outside of his job because he really had no need to, if he ever had said thoughts, emotions and interests outside job. All of his life is clearly dedicated to the discipline of his occupation, even if he does have a tender backstory.
That is where Rinoa is inserted pretty well. She seems to be a friendly, playful and passionate kind of individual who seemed to not understand why Squall was so quiet and 'stand-offish'. The game manual even refers to Squall as a lone wolf, making more reason for Rinoa to question his personality. With interactions with Rinoa being a sort of a problem to Squall's demeanor and focus on his job, we are able to see more about Squall than what we were introduced in the beginning of the game.
+MrARKY89 Do you mean one of the first romantic relationships you experienced, or one of the first in video games? 'Cause there were plenty in the medium before Tidus and Yuna. :P But yeah, I really liked X for that, and I actually still need to play VIII. Looking forward to it, but it's one of many classics I'm working to catch up on.
Games As Literature Yeah, I apologize. I didn't specify well enough. I meant the romance arcs in FF10 and than FF8 were the first I've witnessed in a video game...that is if Mario and Peach don't count. : P
+MrARKY89 Yeah, that depends on who you ask. And whether "cake" is metaphorical. :P
I think one of my favourite videogame romances succeeded by not actually being that romantic. Let me explain, witha big spoiler warning for Skies of Arcadia/Skies of Arcadia: Legends:
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In Skies of Arcadia, the main viewpoint character is Vyse, a young pirate setting out to make his mark in the world. Accompanying him are his best friend, Aika, a fireband of a pirate woman with a love for treasure, and the sweet-natured, demure Fina, a mysterious newcomer the two of them rescued together. At first the game would seem like it's clearly setting up some kind of 'pick between the tomboyish girl next door or the feminine waif' decision, but then it very blatantly doesn't. The issue of the love triangle is deliberately left unresolved. And it's clear that's not because the writers forgot about or anything thanks to a pair of late game private conversations between Vyse and Aika and Vyse and Fina.
The characters are all three best friends by the end of the game and love each other on that level, and because they've got more pressing matters than settling a love triangle, whether they go further than that and in what form is left up to the player to decide after the game ends. What's more, both women seem to know the other loves Vyse just as much as she does, and don't feel at all bad about it, because they love each other as best friends at the very least, too. It's beautiful and adorable and most of all not at all schmaltzy because it's never resolved.
The fanbase is one of the most easygoing fanbases regarding shipping I've ever seen because of this. Plenty of fans just see them as an inseparable polyamourous threesome, but even folks who ship some permutation of it - be it Vyse/Aika, Vyse/Fina, or Aika/Fina - generally see the third person as unquestionably taking the status of best woman or best man at the wedding, as it were.
Fun episode, made more fun by your wife dropping in unexpectedly. So yeah, the closest I came to romance in a video game was in Skyrim. It was a very flat romance but I was attached enough to my video game wife that when she was kidnapped by bandits I was very upset and ready to do anything to get her back. I would be very interested in a purely romantic video game. If you have any to recommend that I could reasonably access that'd be cool.
Well you have Mass Effect right now, I believe, and the're not purely romantic but they are excellent on that front.
The best romantic video games are usually visual novels; if you want a free one, check out Katawa Shoujo. It has very mature content, but you can turn it off in the settings, and the stories and characters are truly excellent. You should check out Clannad when it gets to Steam, too.
If you want something a bit more gamey, since visual novels are rather simple, Catherine is a good one. Really weird, but quite good. Aside from that, your best bet is games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and Fire Emblem: Awakening that have romance as a major part of the character interaction.
There are some "immortal" companions in Skyrim and a good number of them you can marry.
I think the reason we have less (And creepier) romance in games is because most game creators are males and many of them are nerds(Not that nerds can't be in a relationship but they often are more misunderstood due to their eccentric interest and not being "manly") That and the misconception that games are only for "Men" and specifically young Man Children. (Which you should address in a future episode.)
thechaostheater.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=3790&pid=71437#pid71437
We actually come up with some interesting ideas right here in this thread on the forums. (Feel free to join these forums by the way I'd be honored if you'd join and I've gone on a binge watching and posting your videos in various threads of discussion.) (Along with Extra Creditz)
dpolaristar Yeah, the fact that most developers are male, and that games are usually designed with stereotypical male gamers in mind, has definitely gotten in the way of romance in a lot of games. I think back to The Witcher, which... yeah, that was some terribly-handled sexual content. Or worse, games like Conception II. *shiver*
This episode was certainly meant specifically to counter the idea that romance in games can't work because of the mechanical nature of games, and there are plenty more issues surrounding the topic that I'll likely address in further episodes. ^_^
And I'll check out those forums!
I also think your weapon example was kinda crossing over into your own personal preference territory and not universal. Many players put a lot of time into the technically correct aspects of games. (Hence why tier list exist in Fighting games.)
dpolaristar That can be true, but most players don't even know those kinds of tier lists exist. For that matter, game makers usually go to great lengths to ensure that basic weapons in shooters are balanced, so skill with a weapon matters more than which weapon it is. So ideally, in that scenario, a player with a DRM and a player with an assault rifle should be evenly matched so long as they have equal skill with their weapon of choice.
So yeah, that example isn't always the case, but I think it's more commonly true than not.
I liked the video outside of the high pitched ear destroyer moments...
I like that someone talked about this because if ff7 had the option to romance the cast id be thrilled to get tifa I'm just saying but a video about sex in games should be explored cause sex in videogames will NEVER be more realistic or dangerous than the real thing
Huuuuuge spoilers here, but yeah I've definitely been affected by such things. In Mass Effect 3, when you either save Tali from killing herself, or fail and she dies. I failed it the first time I tried to save her (and several times in new playthroughs). I knew the what numbers were in play afterwards, but it got to me a lot, it was really upsetting because she was... A friend, reliable, smart, and I had pursued a romance with her during my time with Mass Effect 1 and 2. I was attached to her, and it hurt when I couldn't save her.
fox0205 Yea. I know how you feel -_-
fox0205 Yea. I know how you feel -_-
There's an interesting discussion to be had about romance in games, especially using Bioware's as a starting point. SPOILERS about the MASS EFFECT TRILOGY and DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS below (to say nothing of the fact that it's a looooong post):
As I reflected on my experience after playing the Mass Effect series, I felt strangely disquieted. I had romanced Ashley in the first game and Miranda in the subsequent two games. My own interpretations of the characters informed those decisions. Liara had seemed more like a little sister to me, earnest and eager. Tali was a valued friend and capable fighter, but again, like a sister (my own relationship with my sister may be intruding on my game experiences). And Jack... she seemed so damaged, specifically by her past relationships with men (as evidenced by her casual offer to f**k Shepard initially) that it seemed irresponsible and selfish to pursue any romantic entanglements, no matter how mature. Real life, not game outcomes, informed those decisions.
But looking back, I realize three things:
First, there's a certain dissatisfaction with the irrelevance of the romances to the plot. Technically, they're not even subplots. They are 100% incidental. Whether you engage in a romance or not has no real bearing on the main plot and whether or not you complete it. Granted, how you personally experience the ending may be shaped by that choice (and that's not nothin', as they say), but the games end the same way whether you're in a romance or not, to say nothing of how each individual character could (and arguably should) shape that outcome. I'm not sure this correlates to how we experience life. Ultimately, I could live my life and pursue my goals without my wife, but the outcome would be so different, so life-altering that to acknowledge that fact is to acknowledge the impact that love truly has. In life, it changes everything. In Mass Effect, it doesn't really change anything. This is a contrast to DA:Origins in which a romance with either Morrigan or Alistair has a direct, and perhaps even traumatic impact on the ending.
Except... and this is point number two. I realized afterword that I retroactively began to alter the story in my mind in order to justify that stasis. Romancing Ashley stopped being about deepening a bond of friendship with someone traumatized by war's effect on her family (an interpretation of her "racism" which I prefer and encourage) and became about connecting with a fellow soldier to communalize grief over a fallen comrade. But severing emotional ties with Miranda -- a bond between two people literally created to be two different kinds of perfect -- proved a problem. Her initial disdain for Shepard (and by extension, free will) is eventually transformed at the very least into respect because of his use of agency, inspiring her to see herself as something other than a pawn of fate. To me, that realization of one's best and freest self is at the heart of true love and explained why she would fall in love with him. And for his part, the fact that Miranda comes to believe in him (in opposition to Ashley who can't bring herself to trust him), deepened Shepard's motivation to defeat the agency-abolishing repears... and yet, deep down, I knew that because of those mechanics, that truth only existed because I had inserted it into the story, not because the story required it.
And here is where the simplest problem for me lies. It's in knowing that the potential for those relationships exist whether I want them to or not, not because those women (or men) choose them, but because I do. Interestingly enough, I take this as an explanation for why I perhaps felt the greatest attraction toward Samara, of all characters. The idea of a relationship is broached, yet she refuses. This is, obviously, just another game mechanic at work. And yet, I admire this seeming exercise of her free will. She doesn't have to have a relationship with me just because I said and did the right things. She is her own person with her own set of values and chooses (at least in the story sense) neglect romance for a nevertheless satisfying friendship. If I have the right to set boundaries in my relationships with others, so should they, and knowing that they DON'T have that option or ability, well, it makes me feel kinda... icky.
It's interesting because the mechanics force Samara to make that choice, just as it forces the other women (and men) to accept it. Up until that final mission, those women exist in a limbo in which they are a slave to my agency. Samara, while bound to her decision by the game's mechanics, nevertheless is not answerable to my choices, and at least that much is true of real life. I can't force people in real life to love me. No one can. In a game whose very theme is built upon an exploration of free will, this dissonance is not exactly a false dichotomy. The reapers seek not to destroy life, but agency (that which they believe will eventually lead us to self-destruction). Likewise, the designers give us the illusion of agency but nevertheless control it by giving us our directives and predetermining our outcomes. And we -- yes, we -- exert dominion over the game's characters by programming them to obey our wills through a series of conversational options. In every case, free will is subsumed.
Yet what am I to do? When I try to break up with Miranda so she can frolic freely in the story's periphery, her tears look so real and her sadness so genuine, that I feel compelled to compel her to keep loving me.
And suddenly, the reaper doctrine of "salvation through destruction" feels all too comforting.
+Eric Thompson Wow. A lot to unpack there.
I completely agree with your assessment of Ashley's character, and as someone who romanced her in 1, stayed faithful in 2, and continued the romance in 3, I enjoy seeing someone who doesn't just hate her because she's racist. I swear, people these days have no concept of how character arcs work.
Side note, my wife romanced Alistair when she played Dragon Age: Origins and ended up with the most traumatic ending ever; basically broke her emotionally and set the stage for her love of video games as an art form.
And while I see what you're saying about romance and free will in games... I can't quite bring myself to agree with the conclusion. Mostly because what you describe is literally the only option video games have. Everything is programmed, everything is pre-determined, because that's how programming works. It's all they can offer us. But honestly, I don't see how that's any different from any other storytelling medium: Han and Leia didn't have any agency in their romance, because they're two fictional characters who were written to fall in love; the thing that matters is that they're developed and portrayed to have their own feelings and desires that lead to it. Same thing in a video game; through programming, writing, acting, etc., they develop a character that we interact with as we see fit. That interaction could lead to romance, if we pursue that option, and that romantic arc will play out how the writers see fit; not even necessarily as a happy-fun-times romance forever and ever (notable are examples like Alistair in certain circumstances, or another character in Inquisition, where the romance won't necessarily end in a happily-ever-after).
So I get it, but I feel like that's an obstacle best overcome simply with good writing, and generally speaking, Bioware got me on that one.
Another side note: Persona 4 also did this excellently. If you haven't played it already, I get the feeling it would shoot immediately into your all-time favorites. You should play it.
Yeah, didn't mean for that reading of Mass Effect to be a conclusion, per se, but as a game exploring free will, it's something to ponder. Mass Effect is a game that empowers the player to become a co-writer, one of the reasons it's on my Mount Rushmore of favorite games. Every character is programmed in any medium by the author, but they're not necessarily programmed by me. To use your example of Leia and Han, we observe that programming but we don't participate in it. Therefore as a participant in the Mass Effect story, I crave relevance. It's interesting to me (though not "bad") that in order to give me romance choices, the game had to make those choices irrelevant to the narrative.
This is where the point you've made in the past about interactivity is so crucial. If I want those romances to be relevant, I have to make them so through my interaction. The game won't, indeed can't, make them relevant for me. As a gamer and a reader, I chose to do so to the point that when looking back on the game, I have a hard time distinguishing between the choices given me and the choices I made.
+Eric Thompson I certainly would love to see more games integrate romance into the major plot. Even Dragon Age only slightly does it with Alistair, and Inquisition's Solas romance doesn't change much despite being SO CRAZY in the big scheme of things. But it usually doesn't change much, aside from visual novels where the romance is the entire point.
Actually though, perhaps that's where the answer lies for now. I still remember playing Katawa Shoujo and falling in love with Hanako, a girl who suffered from chronic depression after an accident left burns all over her body, and finding out after completing it that not only could my choices have led to a variety of outcomes, but the best one required that I trust her and let her work through her issues instead of constantly trying to "save" her. Again, it's obviously just writing at work, but I think it plays into the idea of giving the characters more agency.
Visual novels are chove your own adventure books in electronic form not videogames.
"That was my wife"
FBI, open up!
❤️
Visual Novels!
I did an episode about them, too!
Awesome! Can't wait to see it. When I saw what you said about novels, I was actually kinda surprised. I have never looked at them as points getting subtracted, and added. Always as characters that interest me at first, then I follow the other routes to see if I like the rest. It was funny when you mentioned how when you tried to help at a certain time, it actually caused the relationship to end or something like that. One of the girls in Katawa Shojou has an ending like that, where if the try to comfort her instead of reflecting on yourself it just ends there. But anyway, it was interesting thinking about them and I was happy when I saw them here. Let's see if they are mentioned any where else.
Also, I am finishing up Little Inferno then I will finish the video lol.
+Chimeras Blade Yeah, Katawa Shoujo did a good job with all this. And if you're referring to Hanako's route... man, that was rough. I played that game right after getting out of a long-term relationship with a girl who had severe manic-depression disorder, and of course immediately gravitated toward Hanako. That route messed me up so much I had to wait a couple months before I played the others. :P
Yes I was! The whole route, personally, was the second most feely. I was actually more shocked by Hanako's ending since, it is technically the beginning of it. When she says that she doesn't understand him, and he says he doesn't understand her but they will one step at a time. My favorite was Emi, and she was my first time through. The most interesting was Rin. The most realistic was Shizune with you going your separate ways and the vagueness of weather Hisao and her would be together after. :P
Yes, there are no videogames about romance, let's completely disregard the Asian market with its thousands of romantic releases each year.
Come on, this is either ignorance or bias.