Sabre Lab 5: Let It Happen: Footwork based on natural gait
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2015
- Correct fencing footwork should be based on natural human gait. This isn't the messy pragmatism of combat, this is optimal movement. Let your body move the way it's built to move.
There is extensive additional information in the accompanying article, which can be found on our blog: sydneysabre.com/2015/10/15/le...
If you want to learn more about this kind of thing, check us out at sydneysabre.com
Music is "Let it Happen" by Tame Impala, remixed by Soul Wax. 
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Just a thought... if anybody ever comes back to this thread... you guys don't seem to make a distinction as to which human "gait" you're comparing this to!
Is it the running gait, which "launches" the body forward pushing from the front part of the back foot into squared-off hips, or is it the walking gait, which pushes more from the heel and rotates the torso at an angle to the forward motion?
For rotation, the hip joints need to bend different ways, powered from a different part of the foot; to rotate, you can't use the same part of the foot on BOTH feet.
Or at least I can't do it... ouch.
Think the toe-up/heel-down position of the front foot is more a consequence of what part you're pushing with on the back foot.
If you push using more of a "running" gait, then each foot would be doing the same thing to drive "parallel" hips, so either a raised front heel is mirroring a preparation to "stomp" with the back heel (though that's just a parallel-hip version of the walk... AKA marching), or it's mirroring the back-foot pushing off like you would in running, but for the latter to work I think you'd have to really re-align the back foot to point forward... which nobody seems to be doing... so doubt that's the case.
Wait... it gets worse.
Douglas Kennedy (1893-1988), an English folk dance researcher and teacher, made a BIG distinction between the "walking' gait and what he called the "march-walk", or marching gait (?), which seems to be using the same leg & torso mechanics as the walk but with the "squared"/parallel hip articulation of running.
So do we have THREE different "gaits"?
Check out ruclips.net/video/wMNKLFn41IU/видео.html.
At 1:00 you can see them preparing for the "extraction"; the instructor only raises his front heel, seemingly keeping weight on both feet, while the others raise their whole front foot while shifting their entire weight onto the back foot.
You can see how that mechanic is brought into the left-side-thrust at 1:09 when the instructor is keeping his torso straight and "rotates" into the thrust, while the other guys are squaring their hips into the direction of the thrust and folding their waist.
Is the instructor using the mechanics of the "walking gait", while the others are using the "marching gait"?
Nobody seems to be using the "running-gait" mechanic, but pretty sure you can't do that on a horse regardless; at least not with Western stirrups.
Which one is better? For fencing, I'll leave that up to you... but if you're mowing with a scythe, walking/rotation is best!
If you're plowing with a horse-drawn "walking plow", then the marching mechanic is best.
Running works really well for running, but if you make contact with anything mid-gait your structure will collapse before you can transfer much power (being in mid-air for a good portion of it really doesn't help), so it kind of sucks for doing anything productive in a "work" sense, but scoring a point in a fencing match only requires enough power to trigger the scoring machine so it might be a really good choice for speed & reach over power.
(If you're trying to stick someone with a sword while on horseback... then either you're a time-traveler or you might need to adjust your medication and/or re-evaluate some of your lifestyle choices; your choice of body-mechanics is likely the least of your problems)
So, if you aren't using the appropriate "gait", i.e using the march or run instead of the walk, then pretty sure the toe-before-heel thing you guys are discussing is irrelevant.
If you're using proper "walking gait" mechanics though, then the toe-before-heel thing would be an inevitable consequence of how you're pushing off with the back foot, if you're doing it right.
Again, only if "walking" is the gait-mechanic you want to use! It might not be.
This is all based on some fairly half-assed research of historic agricultural labour practises and early 20th C English folk dance, mixed with a questionable understanding of Chen Practical Method Taiji body-mechanics, so might not be the voodoo that you guys do...
I think I've also had too much coffee.
jim good so fucking good this clears up so much damn
Maybe.
Dude, I think we need to get drunk together and debate this for like six hours. Not even joking, we should make it happen.
If I'm understanding this right (and I hope I am) then could it be a combination of both walking and running mechanics, since the plantarflexor muscles are used in the back leg, so the propulsion would be from the rear muscles through from the balls of the feet (running gait) and then landing with the front heel (walking gait)? If I've misunderstood this then please let me know
I realise I'm more than a bit late to the party, but... in which (of any?) human gait does the toe come up first as part of a step?
I like the quote in the beginning! Just my thoughts, but i believe that lifting the heel first allow them to use the toe (or sole or ball of the feet) to basically "step", or create forward momentum. The thing, is they do it simultaneously with the back leg doing the same thing: create forward momentum. Besides that, adding a small step before the lunge add even more forward momentum to the lunge, allow the fencer to basically slides forward. I figure most of this out as I am a Taekwondo practitioner and we have similar footwork when delivering a kick.
As for the "old" technique, I think the trainers teach that so that you don't trip over your toes as I read somewhere on the internet (?)
Thanks so much for posting this! I'm a foilist who naturally walks on the balls of her feet, and after weeks of honing my technique so I lead with my heel, I've had severe knee pain, to the point where I've had to start wearing a knee strap and it's affecting my everyday life; taking my foot on and off the clutch to drive is agony, and I hobble for days after a practice session. I've also had coaches continually encourage me to aim for 'smooth footwork that can change direction rapidly', when most of the time I feel like I'm plodding, I'm sure I used to move more freely when I just started fencing. I recently decided to try standing in a higher stance with less knee-bend to alleviate some of the downward pressure that keeps me rooted to the floor, and letting myself push off my toes if that's what comes naturally to me. If I continue as before, I'd likely be on track to needing a knee replacement before I turn 50! Thanks for supplying material to help justify my rebellion from 'correct' technique ;) p.s. I really want to try sabre!
I do HEMA and find this extremely insightful.
Learning lunge= definitively toes start and heel leaves ground last. Your examples show lunges after a long/speed attack. The execution of the lunge changes depending on footwork leading to lunge and also of the intention of the attack second intention, final or just going for simultaneous.
+matyi ludas I have static lunge and low speed launch there as well. The heel raises first in all examples.
Why learn something different to what you'll actually be doing?
+matyi ludas I agree with you Matyl. The static lunge is just a theory to learn the basic technique of the move, in a bout you are in constant movement and the leg position will depend on the advances or retreats you are making. All fencers in this video end up lifting the toes and landing with the heel, independently on how the leg started.
+Juan Ignacio Calderon At no point do we even suggest that the heel should not land first. landing the heel first is part of the normal gait cycle, and lifting the toes last won't impair it at all.
We'd also strongly question why everyone is training something "in theory" why never takes place in reality.
The simple answer is to learn the foot mechanic of landing on the heel. Like that other video you have in your blog where a great master teaches his grand children the 1-2-3 & up to then transform it into the real thing. I just find this debate interesting but not a real one because there is no contradiction nor opposing views.
+sydneysabrecentre I go with ur word
Gu incredible!!!!!
Great video!👍👏
great video, Thank you for all of your videos
+matyi ludas Thank you :)
In Hungary we learn the lunge with starting the front foot first (btw. these were mostly not simple lunges, but combined moves) and the results maybe not verify our methods enough, but I think we can live with our unnatural, old fashioned ways, but thanks for the lesson!
I loved your selection of clips, but I'm not clear at what you're getting at. Our weird sideways fencing footwork has NOTHING to do with natural human gait, which is a reciprocal swinging of the left and right sides of the body. What I'm seeing (and I may have missed your point)is a powerful extension of both legs simultaneously, usually following the forward momentum of the attack (though not Nadi's description of the body weight coming forward which seems a much older, heavier 19th C. style).
7:27
It's the first primitive signs of the invisible box challenge!
Thank u for giving a nice Video
Great video btw, very informative whether one agrees or not.
The best reason that I have heard to start with your toe instead of your heel is leading with your heel telegraphs your eventual lunge much more so than if you lead with the toe. This is similar to how toe tapping to a song is less obvious to an observer than heel stomping to the song. Additionally, you want your advance AND your lunge to lead with the toe, both skimming your heel over the ground in order to mask your intentions from your opponent. And you also ideally want your advance and your lunge to look similar enough that your opponent cannot tell the difference between them.
But fencing has progressed into this incredibly dynamic sport over the last 30+ years. So much so, that those "A level fencers" also nearly universally roll their back ankle (another big no-no that you hear from coaches and high level fencers alike). The higher paced actions propel them to make these moves less ideally than they might want to in practice. And just because it's their natural tendency, and even though they may still be able to move quickly, that doesn't mean that it's a better way.
You should be able to quickly and easily see if there are actually any differences or benefits to either method with a second experiment. Find a fencer who can perform a simple lunge using the "proper" method. Film him doing standard lunges against an opponent who must retreat when he sees an attack. Measure the speed of the lunge and the reaction time of the opponent. Next, film a similarly adept fencer (or the same fencer) using the "normal" lunge method and compare your results. My hypothesis is that the "proper" lunging fencer will get better results on the reaction time of his opponent which should equate to more frequent touches.
+Buccaneer Blades Fencing Yes, but then compare that to how reliably the "proper" lunge can be pulled off mid-bout, after a series of movements (retreating as well as advancing). You'll notice that in most of these, the attacker has already advanced clear across the strip/piste`. Personally, when training on my own at home, a "proper" lunge is fairly easy for me to pull off, but even then I notice my back foot wants to roll a bit naturally, and when training at the college I attend, it's hard to slow myself down enough to control my movements on cue every single time, especially during bouts and drills where I have to react quickly and lunge without hesitation. I tend to raise my front leg fairly high when I really want to put some power behind my lunge and ram the point home (sometimes I'll take advantage of that to try to feint my opponent, but that's a different topic). If I'm lunging at close range, I tend to land on my toes. Maybe it's lack of practice, but that's something to keep in mind. Advancing generally poses no problem because I don't have to step out nearly as far, so I can go at high-speed, and because I'm used to doing it a lot.
In short, "proper" technique requires concentration, which slows down thought process, and therefore reaction time, even if only by a fraction of a second. As I'm sure you are aware, in fencing, that could mean a huge difference. However, I will say this: you are right in saying that leading with your heel telegraphs what you are doing, as I know all too well, but unless you can do a "proper" lunge in your sleep, it's definitely harder to use it mid-bout.
Rolling the ankle is a separate issue, and yes, agreed it's probably sub-optimal. There is a counter-example: Oh Sanguk (and to a lesser extend Kim Junho and some of the other new-gen Korean guys) don't roll the ankle at all when they lunge, they pivot the back ankle to leave the ball of the back large toe in contact with the ground, which is a much cleaner action. You have to be hilariously strong to pull it off at speed, but you can find examples of it happening (like Oh in the finals at the 2018 Moscow GP).
The toe-raise thing? It doesn't exist in matches. We haven't seen a single example. We can't even find it in videos of coaches demonstrating footwork dry. Slow it down, and you can see the heel lift first every time.
@@sydneysabrecentre Could you post the video you referenced, or a similar example? Then comparative videos of rolling ankles? Honestly never knew you were supposed to 'lift your toes & glide forward on your heel'. Maybe because we're American, but its always been ball of foot forward, build rear momentum, forward on heel and/ or lift. I guess a lot of us arnt learning 'proper' technique, but fencing is a sport that's constantly evolving and innovation seems more effective than textbook moves from the last century.
Too much fun!😁
Hey everyone! I really like Olympic fencing and I would like to solve any problems in fencing. Can you guys help me out and tell me any problems you have, anything from drills, mindset, footwork, tactics, etc?
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Not sure what this video is trying to say/proof. Great montage though.
In practice there are different types of lounges, depending on the inertia of the fencer.
But from experience, both legs start the lounge simultaneously. It may appear that the forward foot moves first, however the aft leg is the one starting to contract/extend and push the whole body forward, probably even before the aft foot lifts.
Not sure if we need to have a debate about this :D
Sorry, I didn't understand the video. Can someone explain what the compilation of lunges mean?
+Oscar Zhao They all lift the heel first, not the toe.
More here: www.showmethedata.com.au/let-it-happen/
Ohh, I see it now. Thank you!
Just an observation: I think what we are seeing in the video is just the natural mechanics that fencers have as they attempt long advance lunges.
Fencers need to begin their lunge with their feet as close together as possible if they want to cover a greater distance. For example if you are in a deep en garde position, you really can't cover the distance on your lunge that you cover when your heels are touching. So naturally, in an advance lunge your are going to see the rear foot come up as close as it can to the front foot without crossing. From there, with the weight shifted dramatically forward, the front foot must first get out in front of the knee before the the lunge lands.
To me it seems natural that the toe of the front foot would be pointing down until the lunge begins. I am not so sure that it can be attributed to natural gait so much as the necessary mechanics of a fencer trying to cover great distance with just two steps. In other words, the drills that enforce the lifting of the toe still apply. The heel still needs to land first, but the starting position of the lunge is just angled forward (compared to a lunge made from en-garde) due to the big forward weight shift.
+Sean Butler At 1:48 we see Max Hartung launching a lunge from a totally static position. He still does the heel lift. He also had no idea he was doing it until I pointed it out.
+sydneysabrecentre I see what you are saying, but it's much less pronounced for him there than in the other advance lunge scenarios the video depicts. Further I looked at more footage of Hartung from 2015 World Champs in Moscow, and he, like most fencers, will lift his foot slightly before the toe goes out. Most of the time it is a straight lift with both the heel and the toe ascending evenly. In this 2014 Kazan footage, his heel only barely beats his toe.
I did some footwork myself, focusing on what I naturally do with my toe and heel vs. the way I move when I am trying to get a point. Mostly I have the sensation that my toe starts first, but quite possibly from a static position, I might either be neutral or slightly heel first. I am in no way Hartung's equal, but one thing I did get drilled into me early was good footwork. I think that the toe first idea is more of a mental thing than a physical reality for most fencers. It makes sure that our heel lands first which avoids toe injuries on hard lunge landings.
It might be less pronounced, but it's still there.
We would argue that lifting the heel first actually reduces the risk of injuries, as it primes the normal pathways for landing in walking, running, jumping, or pretty much anything else. Kicking the toes doesn't get the leg ready to absorb impact.
About 10 years ago I took Level 1 Epee at the USFA Coaches College, run by master Alex Beguinet of Duke University. We were talking about the "proper" epee lunch, which is exactly like the one shown at the start of this video. I showed him a variation of it, taught to me by my epee coach Ina Harizanova, where you lean the upper body out over the front foot till your momentum carries you to a point of no return, then kick the leg out. The idea is to lull the opponent into thinking the distance is This, and then accelerate very quickly, changing the distance into That.
So master Alex explained to the group that what I was demonstrating was a Technique, a variation of the basic lunge used to score. And, you can find such variations all the time, if you look for them.
Another thing, the guys show in this vid are very athletic. The technique is being sacrificed for speed and power. Ever wonder why a young, athletic guy with 3 years experience and holes in his technique can beat a master who's been fencing with perfect technique for 20 years? That's why.
Look at the blade technique shown here. Is it textbook? Nope. Technique is being sacrificed for speed and power.
Someday, these world champions may teach fencing. Are they going to start out with what is shown here? Not a chance. That is for later. If you start teaching what is shown here to a beginner, you're sure to ruin him, or leave it to another, better coach to fight against habit and correct your mistakes.
Ag Za. , the evidence is you watch beginners fence. Yes, I know, you can't quantify that. Look at it this way. These guys in the video are fast. Really fast. Fast on attack, fast on defense. Hands and feet. These guys aren't even trying to "check" a fast attack by an opponent, because they know the attacker will just finish fast with the hand.
But why is this "basic"? What's the evidence for it?
So, here's the thing. We initially noticed this in the Korean sabre guys, and we were like "huh, they're doing something really weird and unorthodox, but they're beating everyone so it's probably worth checking out what they're doing."
Then we looked at more bouts, and noticed that EVERY athlete we watched in EVERY weapon was doing the same action, in EVERY match. We literally could not find a single counterexample. None. If you've got one from a match, please link it, because we'd be fascinated to see it.
Now you can wave your hands around and name-drop coaches and tell us that this is just dumb young athletes being sloppy and using incorrect technique because they're fast and strong, but that seems like a pretty arrogant assumption. They are ALL doing it, ALL the time. Given a choice between what the book says and what every top athlete in the world does, the least we can do is look at it in a bit more detail and ask why.
You then mention that these guys will teach differently if they coach. Well, they'll probably talk about lifting the toe, because it's been so beaten into everyone as the "correct" action for so long. But if you look closely, they won't do it even when they're coaching. We have footage of Christian Bauer demonstrating lunge from a standing start, and if you look at it carefully, you can clearly see him lift the heel before he does anything else.
So, again we ask: WHY is it incorrect to lift the heel first, when it is absolutely universal? "Because I was told so" is not a satisfactory answer.
@@sydneysabrecentre Late to the party, but I'll throw in a few cents...
Is there a difference between a conscious bias to lifting the heel vs an unconscious bias in lifting the heel?
In teaching a toe first technique - the emphasis is to keep the direction of the front leg in flight, leading to heel or mid foot landing, with a (hopefully) upright and stable position.
I've noticed that when beginners favour a heel first lift, they tend to move their bodyweight *over* their front foot first before lifting the foot, causing an imbalance before the extension forwards. This usually ends up leading to a toe down landing, instability and poor upper body form. Changing to toe first helps in keeping the upper body central, avoid the rocking and keep the front leg driving forwards ready for the heel/mid drop. I also find that focus helps avoid the upper body drop below the hips we often see due to over extension, leading to problems with recovery or continuation.
I've been teaching the lunge as an extension of a squat, since there's a massive similarity in mechanics and proprioception, especially around glutes, hamstrings and lower back, extending through the feet with the snap for power generation, developing the feeling of engagement from there and then transferring that to on-piste mechanics.
*Fencing* *is* *not* *special*. The mechanics are pretty universal, sometimes just arranged a bit differently.
There's a huge amount of validity here, but rather than throw *everything* out, it's worth asking "why are people moving this way" (which you are doing), do we need to adapt our teaching (which we do), and what's the best adaptation we can make for students for maximum benefit? What was the logic behind what we were teaching, and why were we teaching it, is there any residual value in that, and what do we look for going forwards?
@@kryan Brief reply because it's late here:
We haven't taught a single one of our several hundred students the toe-lift thing in five years. Haven't noticed any particular problems teaching them to do footwork.
I genuinely believe it's a weird artefact of either an old drill that got taken way too seriously or even possibly a mistranslation.
that definition of a lunge seems to belong to things like military sabre, smallsword, rapier... and not modern olympic fencing. me likey historical fencing.
Sorry, what definition?
Way late to the party here. You probably should get drinks with some kendo/kumdo guys about how they lunge. There is a static lunge but it's hard to tape because they are wearing a hakama to hide foot movement. However, there is also a lot of dynamic lunging similar to what I'm seeing here where there is a preparation step that leads to the front foot being lifted before the push-off of the back foot. Kendo is fully front facing though, so the lunge length is shorter and there is a requirement to synchronize a hit with the front foot hitting the ground (this can't be judged, it is taught). Other sports have lunges though not quite as long...taekwondo and boxing for example. I suspect the Korean athletes may have a background in taekwondo in particular where they are using a subtle hip impulse shift to lead the front foot ahead of a front foot kick. This also happens in kendo even in a static lunge.
We're always down to get drinks with sword people.
watching as a MA'tist, this defensive movement violates the principals of combat. always move forward. The defender who moves FWD and then attacks, is the winner
This video shows nothing but individualized technique. Don't tell me that Aldo didn't perform near to classical lunge. That one thing. Second thing is that our sport is not perfect itself. We don't know how to utilize mistakes at a spot when they happen. For example, having a shoulder ahead of knee during the attack is a mistake. Want to argue? Save your time, because I am not going to discuss an obvious tings - just from mechanics prospective. But all of the mentioned above is nothing comparing to the proven approach to teaching methodology. Try let your young students to turn their toes inside a bit - that's how all experienced fencers stay in en guard position - and they will never learn proper footwork.
Amen