I started my first 25 professional years as an automotive tech in 79. I grew up on those huge roll-around SnapOn scopes and purchased my first scope, an Allen Test in the early eighties. Fluke entered the automotive game, and I became highly covetous of and finally bought the Fluke 97/Auto scope in the early nineties. Talk about bragging rights, it opened up a whole new chapter of diagnostics. I was no longer just looking at primary and secondary voltage traces and it was becoming faster and faster more necessary. You could actually say I was late getting the 97. I now work on industrial equipment as a mobile tech. mostly EV's but still internal combustion. The 97 collects dust now but my arsenal includes a Zoyi 702 3S (pretty awesome for the price) a Fluke 124B, Fluke 190-204B and a Pico 4425. I did have the Micsig but not the ATO. I sold it because I was constantly hitting the buttons on accident while handling it in the field. The Pico is far and above the best scope I own. My being mobile is the Pico's only downfall. It's a pain in the arse to have to place my laptop in one place and the scope trailing its USB in another and then have leads strewn all over the place. I tend to grab the 124B first and when I need more than two traces I'll grab the 190-204. For any automotive techs out there who might be reading this, I highly suggest you buy a scope with isolated channels. I just recently bought a new laptop more suitable for rough environments, the Dell 7330 Rough Extreme and I plan on making a device that will hold my Pico onto the back of the lid. If it works out, I will probably get rid of all my other scopes. My laptop with all the manuals and wiring diagrams in it is always slung over my shoulder and if the pico is already on it, I'm golden. P.S. CAN decoding on the pico is as good as it gets.
I have been wairong for you to make this i work on garbage trucks and now the hydraulics thr aftertreatment everything fuel systems ive been looking at scopes for a year your my favorite test equipment guy over all auto guys i value ur opinion
I don’t do anything automotive, but I have been meaning to get into scopes. The pico scopes look epic, but pricey 😅. Do you have a budget scope comparison video?
G,day from Sydney Australia. I'm happy with a $20 OBD II engine fault code reader. However for electronics the Owon two channel digital scope is looking good! 🌏🇦🇺
Thank you very much for your video😊. So I have to consider Pico and micsig. Pico has the best software, but Micsig and its portability... Hard days ahead of me. Of course, I will leave a comment with my chosen one. Thanks again. Best regards🙂
Can’t thank you enough for this post. One video wont completely cover the subject but justice is done here. Would you consider another one discussing the use of bench top lab scopes in automotive? Perhaps using one of yours to capture some waveforms and compare to those of a dedicated automotive rig. And highlight issues that arose during the experiment. No other OP has touched this and one doubts its because of a lack of viewer interest. Think of those outside the USA for whom even entry level automotive scopes cost a fortune. A well spec four channel Rigol for example, looks quite attractive as a one time investment in these tools. Of course preference for the automotive presets makes sense for a full time mechanic. The adage time is money applies. But are you aware that most of the expert automotive posters on Utube advise against novices using presets? They say no scope skill is gained by this and that beginners would be lost in the event of a glitch for example, whereby the presets were unavailable. My prowess with scopes begins/ends with pushing the power button on and off so I agree with them.
@@jackjohnson9989 you bring up a great point. I found that a lot of techs especially with the last 10 years do not have a great foundation in theory or operation. A lot of co-workers shy away from certain types of cars because they fail to realize that a car ann their systems all achieved the same goal but are implemented differently. I see a number of people in the field attempting to use OEM diagnostic trees to no avail because they just don't understand why they are doing what they are doing. A lot of the presets and a lot of the information that is generated by companies like Pico or snap-on with their vantage line, does a lot of the thinking for them so there isn't much of an incentive to learn beyond what is given or handed to them
Thanks so much for this fantastic feedback!! I'd love to do this - and you are right - there probably will not be a lot of viewers - but it would be educational. I think it would live on and eventually gain views;) I have not watched a lot of the other mechanic specific videos but I think presets are awesome! Why not! I would think if one would become the expert in the shop - that person could offer help to others - especially when a customer with a hard to find problem comes in. I have a Jeep that I need that person;)
The issue, and I'm going to assume this is for most technicians, it's time versus money as is every job. Who pays for such facilities such as is the shop room to buy it or am I going to buy it? The next part is a customer's willing to spend the amount of money required for the time that is necessary to charge to actually track down issues that are going to require in oscilloscope. A lot of times it's easier for me to order a part that is suspect and install it because of its ease then it is to out and out test it with a scope. Especially when I have two lifts and I'm working on repairs versus diagnostics. I've been a tech for 20 years specializing in European vehicles mainly focused within the electrical specialty. How often do I use in oscilloscope? Not very often. I have a flute 233 that is indispensable because if it's removable screen. A power probe. Access to high quality wiring diagrams and the ability to read OEM diagrams. Would I love to use an oscilloscope more often absolutely. But oftentimes I find customers are not willing to spend 2 to 4 hours at Shop rate probably diagnose The vehicle. It's a conundrum and I figured out over the years how to charge appropriately on the front end versus a back end meaning diagnosis versus repair.
Thanks for this great real world feedback!! I understand that most repairs - you have a great idea of what is needed. I have had a couple cars that I could only troubleshoot so far - and then I was stuck. The repair station couldn't do any better, so I took it to the dealer who put a scope on it and traced down the problem. I now have a jeep (which I have had a number and never had a difficult problem) and this one has a small evap leak that I have tried to fix - I replaced just about everything that could cause it. The engine light went out (as it does - but then will go back on - and then off again...) I took it in and the repair station did the same - and neither of us fixed it permanently. I think someone with a scope that knows where to look needs to solve this... Ugh I can't sell it until I get this fixed.
Some of the more recent CANbus standards are getting to pretty high bit rates. Not sure if you need a 200 MHz scope, but I suspect 50 or less might be troublesome for CANbus XL.
Thanks for the great question! CAN bus started off around 250kbps, and the fastest speeds that I have had to deal with are 1Mbps. I think the fastest speeds are reaching 10Mbps and even 15Mps. So, a 100 MHz scope can still do this easily. I'd think that a 50MHz scope probably could - but the Micsig and Pico that have decoders are rated at 100MHz. I think Pico has all the decoders and I know Micsig has the CAN-FD, so these are fast CAN busses. Great to know that the scope is built for future speeds that will come up.
I worked on it today - I hope to get something out this weekend. It takes so much time to do the standard videos - the design videos take 2 or 3 times as long - and fewer people watch them.
Thanks for asking. I think that is a tiny scope with only 4k samples with what looks like some special probes because of the non-standard probe inputs. IMHO, I think you can do much better buy getting a much better and bigger scope with 250M samples at this link: amzn.to/4fSlolq And then buying great automotive probes meant for a real scope: amzn.to/3OxNC9b And an ignition test lead: amzn.to/3CT5R6n
One subject I find a lot is that technicians will purchase some type of multimeter or oscilloscope with very little understanding of how it operates so it just collects Dust in the toolbox. Another instance or experience that I've had is that typically the first amount of time you get for diagnosis is 1 hour. This is flat rate. For me to pull a vehicle in, scan the codes, and if a scope is needed then I'm already 20 minutes in. Unpacking the scope putting it on the vehicle getting everything set up best case scenario I'm 30 minutes in. So I have about another 10 minutes before I have to have enough information that I feel is necessary to deliver to the customer or client to justify asking for another few hours of diagnosis. A lot of times that first hour of diagnosis if it's required to go deeper with an oscilloscope the reality is the spending more than an hour and hoping that the customer is going to okay additional work. But this speaks to the general industry and the flat rate system and that's a whole other subject. I am fortunate that I'm in a position where my boss is on the same page as me that the vehicle needs to be fixed correctly The first time and to the best it can be. Also snap-on has been producing vantage scopes for decades that have automotive information in them such as pinouts, locations, connector diagrams, known good waveforms, and auto setting the scope for what test you've selected. These are great things and I'm glad that Pico has gone that direction with their automotive line. I still pull out my MT2400 which is a black and white decades old scope that has component testing built in with the above information. It's incredibly handy. If you're at a dealership or a very large independent shop you may be lucky and having a full picoscope. I know that GM uses the picoscope automotive kits for oscilloscopes. With all this being said however, I would much rather spend my money on a bootleg OEM scan tool like the Mercedes star or the BMW iCom or any of the others that are available. They do everything except programming which now they actually interface with the dealerships online portal for purchasing downloads for programming. If I had the choice of spending $1,000 on a Mercedes OEM schedule or a automotive specific oscilloscope I would take the scan tool every time. Unfortunate that I use oscilloscopes almost every day building and fixing audio equipment on my free time, but when the rubber hits the road excuse the pun in the shop you got to have a really good idea of how you're going to attack something to make good money. The automotive industry as an employee or technician rather has changed dramatically from when I started in '04. And I think the biggest thing that a lot of technicians need to keep in mind is where you work and who you work with. I will never ever not let a technician use my tools because they need to get a job done and it's pretty much a written rule in my shop that don't buy the tool if I have it and vice versa. Ultimately we're a team and the goal is to make the shop as good as possible because the money will come. In the dealership this isn't really the case however because there's so many hands taking before the money gets to you. Like I said I can just go on and on and on about this and you have open the door in my brain that occasionally gets peeked through
Thanks!
Thank you for your generosity!! I appreciate you!
@@KissAnalog thanks for the great video.
Eddie, outstanding video!!! Thank you. This video was an informative and critical on measurement equipment.
Thanks so much for your feedback! It was long - but the content took time;)
I started my first 25 professional years as an automotive tech in 79. I grew up on those huge roll-around SnapOn scopes and purchased my first scope, an Allen Test in the early eighties. Fluke entered the automotive game, and I became highly covetous of and finally bought the Fluke 97/Auto scope in the early nineties. Talk about bragging rights, it opened up a whole new chapter of diagnostics. I was no longer just looking at primary and secondary voltage traces and it was becoming faster and faster more necessary. You could actually say I was late getting the 97. I now work on industrial equipment as a mobile tech. mostly EV's but still internal combustion. The 97 collects dust now but my arsenal includes a Zoyi 702 3S (pretty awesome for the price) a Fluke 124B, Fluke 190-204B and a Pico 4425. I did have the Micsig but not the ATO. I sold it because I was constantly hitting the buttons on accident while handling it in the field. The Pico is far and above the best scope I own. My being mobile is the Pico's only downfall. It's a pain in the arse to have to place my laptop in one place and the scope trailing its USB in another and then have leads strewn all over the place. I tend to grab the 124B first and when I need more than two traces I'll grab the 190-204. For any automotive techs out there who might be reading this, I highly suggest you buy a scope with isolated channels. I just recently bought a new laptop more suitable for rough environments, the Dell 7330 Rough Extreme and I plan on making a device that will hold my Pico onto the back of the lid. If it works out, I will probably get rid of all my other scopes. My laptop with all the manuals and wiring diagrams in it is always slung over my shoulder and if the pico is already on it, I'm golden. P.S. CAN decoding on the pico is as good as it gets.
Thanks for the fantastic feedback! I do like the isolation of my differential input Picoscope the 4444.
I have been wairong for you to make this i work on garbage trucks and now the hydraulics thr aftertreatment everything fuel systems ive been looking at scopes for a year your my favorite test equipment guy over all auto guys i value ur opinion
Thanks so much! I appreciate you! Let us know if you pick one;)
I don’t do anything automotive, but I have been meaning to get into scopes. The pico scopes look epic, but pricey 😅.
Do you have a budget scope comparison video?
G,day from Sydney Australia. I'm happy with a $20 OBD II engine fault code reader.
However for electronics the Owon two channel digital scope is looking good!
🌏🇦🇺
LOL Yes, I use my OBD too, but it is frustrating when it falls so short of actually fixing an issue that is not the most simple thing...
Hi Eddie, Another great informative video. I really appreciate your informative tutoring. Thank you. 😁
Thank you! I appreciate you and your support!
Thank you very much for your video😊. So I have to consider Pico and micsig. Pico has the best software, but Micsig and its portability... Hard days ahead of me. Of course, I will leave a comment with my chosen one. Thanks again. Best regards🙂
Thanks for the video idea! I appreciate you! We are all interested in what scope you choose;)
Can’t thank you enough for this post.
One video wont completely cover the subject but justice is done here.
Would you consider another one discussing the use of bench top lab scopes in automotive?
Perhaps using one of yours to capture some waveforms and compare to those of a
dedicated automotive rig. And highlight issues that arose during the experiment.
No other OP has touched this and one doubts its because of a lack of viewer interest.
Think of those outside the USA for whom even entry level automotive scopes cost a fortune.
A well spec four channel Rigol for example, looks quite attractive as a one time investment in these tools.
Of course preference for the automotive presets makes sense for a full time mechanic.
The adage time is money applies.
But are you aware that most of the expert automotive posters on Utube advise against novices using presets? They say no scope skill is gained by this and that beginners would be lost in the event of a glitch for example, whereby the presets were unavailable.
My prowess with scopes begins/ends with pushing the power button on and off so I agree with them.
@@jackjohnson9989 you bring up a great point. I found that a lot of techs especially with the last 10 years do not have a great foundation in theory or operation. A lot of co-workers shy away from certain types of cars because they fail to realize that a car ann their systems all achieved the same goal but are implemented differently. I see a number of people in the field attempting to use OEM diagnostic trees to no avail because they just don't understand why they are doing what they are doing. A lot of the presets and a lot of the information that is generated by companies like Pico or snap-on with their vantage line, does a lot of the thinking for them so there isn't much of an incentive to learn beyond what is given or handed to them
Thanks so much for this fantastic feedback!! I'd love to do this - and you are right - there probably will not be a lot of viewers - but it would be educational. I think it would live on and eventually gain views;) I have not watched a lot of the other mechanic specific videos but I think presets are awesome! Why not! I would think if one would become the expert in the shop - that person could offer help to others - especially when a customer with a hard to find problem comes in. I have a Jeep that I need that person;)
The issue, and I'm going to assume this is for most technicians, it's time versus money as is every job. Who pays for such facilities such as is the shop room to buy it or am I going to buy it? The next part is a customer's willing to spend the amount of money required for the time that is necessary to charge to actually track down issues that are going to require in oscilloscope. A lot of times it's easier for me to order a part that is suspect and install it because of its ease then it is to out and out test it with a scope. Especially when I have two lifts and I'm working on repairs versus diagnostics. I've been a tech for 20 years specializing in European vehicles mainly focused within the electrical specialty. How often do I use in oscilloscope? Not very often. I have a flute 233 that is indispensable because if it's removable screen. A power probe. Access to high quality wiring diagrams and the ability to read OEM diagrams. Would I love to use an oscilloscope more often absolutely. But oftentimes I find customers are not willing to spend 2 to 4 hours at Shop rate probably diagnose The vehicle. It's a conundrum and I figured out over the years how to charge appropriately on the front end versus a back end meaning diagnosis versus repair.
Thanks for this great real world feedback!! I understand that most repairs - you have a great idea of what is needed. I have had a couple cars that I could only troubleshoot so far - and then I was stuck. The repair station couldn't do any better, so I took it to the dealer who put a scope on it and traced down the problem. I now have a jeep (which I have had a number and never had a difficult problem) and this one has a small evap leak that I have tried to fix - I replaced just about everything that could cause it. The engine light went out (as it does - but then will go back on - and then off again...) I took it in and the repair station did the same - and neither of us fixed it permanently. I think someone with a scope that knows where to look needs to solve this... Ugh I can't sell it until I get this fixed.
@KissAnalog what kind of Jeep is it? Wrangler or Cherokee?
It is a 2010 Wrangler/Rubicon
Some of the more recent CANbus standards are getting to pretty high bit rates. Not sure if you need a 200 MHz scope, but I suspect 50 or less might be troublesome for CANbus XL.
Thanks for the great question! CAN bus started off around 250kbps, and the fastest speeds that I have had to deal with are 1Mbps. I think the fastest speeds are reaching 10Mbps and even 15Mps. So, a 100 MHz scope can still do this easily. I'd think that a 50MHz scope probably could - but the Micsig and Pico that have decoders are rated at 100MHz. I think Pico has all the decoders and I know Micsig has the CAN-FD, so these are fast CAN busses. Great to know that the scope is built for future speeds that will come up.
how is the APFC series PCB progressing?
I worked on it today - I hope to get something out this weekend. It takes so much time to do the standard videos - the design videos take 2 or 3 times as long - and fewer people watch them.
@@KissAnalog THX for the answer , i know design is harder but i am very curious of what it will be
😮😊😊😊👌
Thanks!!
AESWAVE has a small 1 channel scope called the u-scope around 200bucks for basic kit if interested would like to see your opinion
Thanks for asking. I think that is a tiny scope with only 4k samples with what looks like some special probes because of the non-standard probe inputs. IMHO, I think you can do much better buy getting a much better and bigger scope with 250M samples at this link: amzn.to/4fSlolq
And then buying great automotive probes meant for a real scope: amzn.to/3OxNC9b
And an ignition test lead: amzn.to/3CT5R6n
Man, I have so many thoughts and experiences regarding oscilloscopes in this field. I don't even know where to begin sometimes.
LOL I know what you mean;) Start anywhere and see where it goes;)
One subject I find a lot is that technicians will purchase some type of multimeter or oscilloscope with very little understanding of how it operates so it just collects Dust in the toolbox.
Another instance or experience that I've had is that typically the first amount of time you get for diagnosis is 1 hour. This is flat rate. For me to pull a vehicle in, scan the codes, and if a scope is needed then I'm already 20 minutes in. Unpacking the scope putting it on the vehicle getting everything set up best case scenario I'm 30 minutes in. So I have about another 10 minutes before I have to have enough information that I feel is necessary to deliver to the customer or client to justify asking for another few hours of diagnosis. A lot of times that first hour of diagnosis if it's required to go deeper with an oscilloscope the reality is the spending more than an hour and hoping that the customer is going to okay additional work. But this speaks to the general industry and the flat rate system and that's a whole other subject.
I am fortunate that I'm in a position where my boss is on the same page as me that the vehicle needs to be fixed correctly The first time and to the best it can be.
Also snap-on has been producing vantage scopes for decades that have automotive information in them such as pinouts, locations, connector diagrams, known good waveforms, and auto setting the scope for what test you've selected. These are great things and I'm glad that Pico has gone that direction with their automotive line. I still pull out my MT2400 which is a black and white decades old scope that has component testing built in with the above information. It's incredibly handy.
If you're at a dealership or a very large independent shop you may be lucky and having a full picoscope. I know that GM uses the picoscope automotive kits for oscilloscopes.
With all this being said however, I would much rather spend my money on a bootleg OEM scan tool like the Mercedes star or the BMW iCom or any of the others that are available. They do everything except programming which now they actually interface with the dealerships online portal for purchasing downloads for programming. If I had the choice of spending $1,000 on a Mercedes OEM schedule or a automotive specific oscilloscope I would take the scan tool every time.
Unfortunate that I use oscilloscopes almost every day building and fixing audio equipment on my free time, but when the rubber hits the road excuse the pun in the shop you got to have a really good idea of how you're going to attack something to make good money. The automotive industry as an employee or technician rather has changed dramatically from when I started in '04. And I think the biggest thing that a lot of technicians need to keep in mind is where you work and who you work with. I will never ever not let a technician use my tools because they need to get a job done and it's pretty much a written rule in my shop that don't buy the tool if I have it and vice versa. Ultimately we're a team and the goal is to make the shop as good as possible because the money will come. In the dealership this isn't really the case however because there's so many hands taking before the money gets to you.
Like I said I can just go on and on and on about this and you have open the door in my brain that occasionally gets peeked through