Considering that you mentioned the state church in Germany going liberal and the orthodox lutherans left to America to be orthodox maybe you should do a series on the history of the Lutheran church. It’ll be nice to get more of a history lesson and how we went from Luther to today’s Lutheran church.
Books on CFW Walther and the migration to America (Perry County, Missouri and St. Louis) lay out the details of the changes in the state back in Germany that created a bad situation for Lutherans.
"What do you mean by that?" is becoming my default first question whenever any hot button topic is brought up. Because most people can't define the terms they use.
The letter from Jefferson of separation of Church and state was to keep the state out of the church not the opposite. I think if we are going to have laws it should reflect the heart of God not the evil of this world. 🤔 Christians don't get bullied into not promoting biblical morals
Go ahead and promote morals, but keep it neutral and make your case based on reason, not on the authority of an Ayatollah, Pope, or Council. Once you cross that line and the State bows to one of these authorities, you're pushing a whorish tyranny and opening the door to a persecution of the true Church of God.
What are “Biblical” morals? The biblical morals I subscribe to are reflective of the love and grace of Jesus Christ. These morals lead me by the fruits of the spirit to embrace love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, generosity, and self control (Galatians 5:22). If Christians in this nation or any nation truly embraced these without force, we would see the Kingdom come much closer. Many of the morals discussed related to Christian nationalism do not follow these spiritual seeds and fruits. Impatience says, it must be my version of Christianity. Fear, deludes us into forgetting that all people are children of God and dehumanizing others. Lack of self control allows us to follow leaders spewing hate and unrest instead of the joy and grace filled voices that represent Christ and the spirit. Luther said terrible things at the end of his life against Jewish people. Hitler and supremacists twist these words yet today. Our selfishness gets in the way of truly hearing the voice of our Lord and truly seeking legitimate, scholarly and institutionally respected data which leads us to truth and the love of our neighbor. If “Christian morality” was truly of Christ, it would be an easy non-judgemental, healing and loving pill for others to swallow. We can live just fine in the tension of the now and not yet of the kingdom. Now I have a strong faith which doesn’t compromise my values and honors Christ to the fullest, and the not yet of living in patience as our Lord does for others to fully bring the kingdom and to wait for their free will to recognize Him through us. We need to do a better job of representing Him.
@@jennifercole5117 I agree with a lot of what you say but I would say that your handicapping Christians. Judging is something fundamental to Christian faith. Otherwise we wouldn't even care about morals and just go with the flow. We judge and assert for righteousness in the name of God since we are the light of this world. Of course before we judge others we must judge ourselves. Also I think this type of thinking is a bit naive. The truth can seem very offensive or even targeted sometimes because that's what it means to be convicted. No criminal enjoys being told they are quilts in a court of law. I appreciate your time sister and I hope you're blessed. PS Christians don't always reflect Christ well. I think this is something we all struggle with.
I believe the terms Nationalism & Nationalist often get confused in society as do Progressive/Progressivism, Conservative/Conservatism and Liberal/Liberalism. Your commentary is spot on.
I think you are referring to the moderatism vs the extremism of each category. However, can you really just stay moderate? The conflict of ideas is a war of minds. Consider the Islamic conquest of North Africa and the Levant. It became a capital offense to share the gospel and convert to Christianity. It's too idealistic/utopian to think that society balance itself without one extremism to another. Can a scale truly balance itself when one side has all the weights at the end of that side while the other side put weights in the middle?
I agree with you that American Christianity is a mess. I believe that as Christians we must simply advocate for righteousness in both the culture and the state. Unfortunately the term Christian Nationalism is simply used as a tool to keep Christians silent about any cultural/political issues in general. It doesn't matter if you have good theology or if you believe America is the new Jerusalem, ultimately (if it is convenient to those who object) you will all fall under the category of being a Christian Nationalist if you are too vocal about desiring righteousness out of our leaders and policies.
We are utterly and singularly in a neo-Babel moment. It's not a confusion of languages but a confusion of the definition of words. We all have different meanings for the same words. It's causing the same kind of fights as years ago... Something is confusing our language.
Yes, a state church is bad. Reality is that we currently have one: secularism in pagan form Rather, a society that bases it's morality on the teaching of Christ would be much preferred. If we can say that humans are not the final moral authority, that the 10 commandments are divinely inspired, and that loving God and loving others is foundational, we are on the right track
I would love to live in a society where the 10 Commandments are the law of the land, but that society still wouldn't exist in a Catholic or Protestant-led society because both religions reject the Decalogue as something Christ supposedly came to abolish.
The crux of the issue comes down to the fact that many current prominent Christian voices will not assert Christian interests publicly or on others (not to force salvation but to restrain evil). Classical 2K would seem to be perfectly aligned with making this better
In the same way there is no such thing as a neutral education as you’ve stated in previous podcasts, There is always a state religion, always, no true neutral government can exist. To ignore this is to allow other’s state religions to reign. Laws gain their foundation from that state church’s principles, whether it be a secular enlightenment church, islamic, buddhist, or Christian. Our current state religion is a twisted post Christian, enlightenment one and our laws have begun to reflect such. I don’t agree with many of the vocal Christian nationalists on what governement should look like (as in republican democracy, etc), but i absolutely agree with them on how the moral foundations of our legal system should reflect biblical ones. This has been the only consistent theme i’ve seen in what is put forth as Christian nationalists and why i’d be willing to take on the moniker. Additionally, anyone pushing for Chrisitan morals in lawfare and governance is and will be labelled a Christian Nationalist. You can nuance your position all you want, but the enemies of Christianity realize that governing according to biblical principles is to accept a different state religion than their own (though yhey won’t use such language) and will label you and attempt to destroy you unless you give in to their state religion’s legal principles. All that to say, if you want a government and laws that punish evil and promote the good, you’re gonna be a Christian Nationalist.
I know this has nothing to do with the video but I would really love to see you have a discussion with Michael Lofton from Reason and Theology. He’s reacted to your video on the Magisterium and said he wanted to have you on the show. Thanks for your hard work!
Have you read the recent translations of Friederich Julius Stahl into English by Ruben Alvarado? I highly recommend it. Even just the biography entitled “Authority, Not Majority” changed my mind on so much. He was truly a genius in my opinion.
Dr. Cooper, could you do a follow up video on Andrew Torba’s book? It’s a very short read and what it says in there seems to directly contradict what has been portrayed as Christian nationalism in this video. I am neutral towards Christian Nationalism at this point, but would like to hear a scholarly biblical response to the most coherent and popular version of Christian Nationalism, i.e. Andrew Torba’s Christian Nationalism book.
The term "Christian "Nationalism" is a term I hear often in the media but have never heard otherwise. I don't ever recall anyone ever mentioning the term. The media often conflates the term with "White Nationalism." I do hear some Christians speak of America as being a "Christian Nation" in the sense that Christianity has been the dominant religion throughout its history and remains so today even if somewhat less so. In terms of actual political policy the Christians who call America a Christian Nation would generally support policies that are pro-life on abortion, return of prayer to schools, etc. That is policies they see as consistent with their Christian faith.
You know, I've never figured out how prayer to the god of the lowest common denominator, the Great To Whom It May Concern, in public schools is in any way compatible with Christianity. The agenda of the Religious Right in America goes far beyond being pro-life and seeing right and wrong as revealed in the Law written on the human heart. It brews the Two Kingdoms together and, as Dr. Cooper says, tends to take its theological cues from places confessional Lutherans ought to be rather uncomfortable with.
Appreciate your whole approach and, considering your reference to the German state church, would you consider the Protectorate under Cromwell as a useful case study for those who are promoting the establishment of a Protestant state church in the US?
The most modern sense of the term Christian Nationalism is descriptive of a Christian "who happens to be a Nationalist." Inasmuch as the natural, default enemy of Globalism is Nationalism, most American conservatives would identify as Nationalists. To the Nationalist, Globalism embodies Communism and Totalitarianism...and is in the mind of the Christian Nationalist, the greatest threat to mankind, and especially our Republic. The accusers of Christians and Nationalists are almost invariably Progressives, and use the phrase as a pejorative equivalent to White Supremacists.
I am a father to young children and a husband to a wife who is very Left. I am Right Libertarian and she sees my return to faith in God and wanting to share it with my kids as essentially a form of CN. Are there any good resources for prodigal sons (daughters too) who find themselves drowning in info but starving for it at the same time? I have enough theological background that I find myself very cautious about modern churches, but not enough to really be effective at sharing ideas without sounding like I believe in fairy tales.
@@tomcoyne2690 I'm well aware of where evil resides, I'm also aware of the devil's attempts to infiltrate any and all realms of ideology. Have you ever tried to debate/reason with someone who is university educated (indoctrinated) and a medical doctor? Most days I'd rather beat my hands against rocks. Hence why I asked for resources.
Try to explain why you first believe in God. St Thomas Aquinas’ proofs for God’s existence are really good and will show her the framework you’re operating under. Then explain why Christianity and not other religions or mere deism. This video from the apologist Bahnsen is really good at his reasoning for why Christ: ruclips.net/video/zv5OGDWU5OM/видео.html . Then I would learn more about defenses of Christ like the evidences for the resurrection and the things He taught and claiming to be God, etc. I watch a lot of Catholic apologetics but if you’re Protestant, to take it a step further see what the Protestant apologists say and how they defend the faith and try to explain why that’s the form of Christianity you believe. The capturing Christianity RUclips is really good and has some stuff on the resurrection I was just watching the other day. Hope that helps.
Is there such a thing as Lutheran Nationalism? If there is what is Lutheran Nationalism? What does Lutheran Nationalism look like? What does a society of Lutheran Nationalism look like with state? Is Lutheran Nationalism the same as Christian Nationalism or are they differences.
The Gottesdienst Crowd released a podcast today that I think added a bit of nuance to this debate. I’m normally very wary of Christian Nationalist types, but their podcast helped me to be not so immediate critical and actually agree with at least some points people are making. Still far from calling myself a Christian nationalist though!
I have been concerned with the positive embrace of Doug Wilson and Canon Press from the guys at Gottesdienst. It's definitely starting to look like there may be similar lines in the sand drawn in Confessional Lutheranism as was done in Evangelicalism.. not a good sign. You can also see this division in how Braaten and co. (particularly Rev. Preus) approach the idea of "Biblical Patriarchy", vis-a-vis Dr. Cooper's rejection of it. This will come to a head some day.
@@vngelicath1580 Preus was a cultural and political conservative trying to use religion as a cudgel. He managed to align the LCMS with Evangelical Fundamentalism's cultural and political project.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
The state will use someone's values to make laws. Why not God's values? The state will use someone's standard of morality. Why not God's. The state will impose laws that people don't like, why not Gods?
Jordan, found your channel about a month ago and it’s been a blessing to listen to many of your videos. In this video you said god gave us the state. I think I agree that he did. With that said, I find libertarianism (anarchocapitalism) to be extremely intellectually attractive. Have you read up on libertarianism/anarchocapitalism in any length? A popular argument is whether or not a Christian can be an anarchocapitalist/libertarian. I’ve been thinking a lot about it personally over the years. Any thoughts on that? If not no worries. God bless.
Not that you asked me, but… I think a Christian can theoretically be ancap, but if we’re being realistic, implementing anarchocapitalism in a secular society would lead to an outcome no Christian should want, namely poor people getting crushed under the boot of greed. Similarly, one could theoretically be Christian and Marxist. Tenets of Marxism like wealth sharing and egalitarianism can easily align with Christianity. But here in reality, the actual outcomes of Marxism (killings, repression, revolution) are something no Christian should support.
Ron Paul was the first person who got me interested in politics, so I'm certainly sympathetic to some aspects of Libertarianism. There are, however, some aspects of Libertarian philosophy that I have a difficult time reconciling with Christianity.
@@DrJordanBCooper I have some difficulties as well. Definitely going to try to keep thinking about them. I’ll let you know if I ever get them reconciled :)
@@jordand5732 Hey Jordan, I'm a Christian and also a free market anarchist (ancap, libertarian anarchist, whatever you want to call it). I don't have difficulty reconciling my Christian views to my political philosophy. I think where some Christians get wary of libertarianism is they conflate libertarianism with libertinism (the more prominent split between "left" and "right" libertarians hasn't helped these matters but I don't want to get into libertarian infighting). Ideologically, I am a free market anarchist but what I will say is that becoming a Lutheran has made me challenge my views. While I still think an ancap society is the ideal society, coming back to the faith has made me reanalyze man through a fallen lens. I am much less optimistic that getting to an ancap society is possible and I think that it is very possible that, sadly, the existence of government might be an intrinsic outgrowth of our fallen nature. If you are looking for resources I'll point you to the Libertarian Christian Institute. It's run by good people and their podcast is good as well. I also have a published paper with my former professor Walter Block titled "Christianity, The Free Market, and Libertarianism" that you can find by typing the title and my name into google. Anyway, I know this is long but I hope you have found this helpful and feel free to reply if you would like to engage further.
@@christianlight8511 hey man, that is awesome. Working with Walter block would be one of the coolest things I can think of! That is wild! I used walters arguments from privatizing the roads for my business ethics paper back in grad school relating to getting government out of security in airports. He also really helped me think through chlorofluorocarbons and whether we needed government to step in or not. He’s been a real blessing to my life. I think from a Protestant perspective there is a lot more wiggle room to work with and that it can be really strongly argued. I’m actually a catholic, like Tom woods and Lew Rockwell, and I think it’s harder to argue that it’s acceptable for Catholics to be ancap. I definitely like the libertarian Christian site, I’ve perused it a few times and it’s great. I’ve put my libertarian study largely to the back burner recently since I’ve been struggling as to whether to be catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, or evangelical. Been praying all day long in spare moments for God to show me the way. What led you to Lutheranism, if I may ask? God bless!
Thanks for this video. I tried to figure it out, too, and yeah, it seems to be a common buzzword that seems to only cause more confusion and division than to actually define something. What's worse is some Christian people are now using whether you are a "Christian nationalist" as a bludgeon to determine whether you're in the kingdom or not (when they can't even agree on what it means!). It's nutty to me.
I think you are compounding Christian denominalism with a multi-religious state. For a more in-depth understanding, it will be better to separate out the co-existence between Protestants/RCC/EO vs Christianity/Islam/Hinduism. Do we believe that somehow in Europe or Asia they never faced these issues?
The Christian public can always try to use there Christian values in the public square, its called the art of persuasion. Go and make an argument and see if you can get the majority to accept it. The problem is so many Christians want there values to just be accepted because they suggest it. That’s like the intelligent design folks wanting there views to be taught next to accepted science without going through the difficult process of publishing and having their theories tested by rigorous science.
Alot of people who proclaim Christ hold the state above Christ and they will be unknown to Christ and the gnashers of teeth when their hearts are exposed for their idolatry
Excellent.... very helpful.... I've also been listening to you Dr. Cooper for at least three years, I've purchased several of your books from Amazon.... and between reading the entire original King James version of the Bible, reading the Augsburg Confession and roughly 40% of the Book of Concord and also following Brian Woekfmueller, I've really come to strongly embrace Confessional Lutheranism. ...raised Catholic, went to a Catholic school until High School and then drifted off to a Jeffersonian kind of Deism... Also, there is a lot of hard work and dedication you've put into reaching your impressive scholarly achievement. Thanks...Cheers!
The nation whose God is the Lord is the people he chose for his inheritance. Jesus did not specifically choose America for his inheritance. Jesus chose those who believe in him by the the gift of the Holy Spirit for his inheritance. Christians. The Church. Duh.
@@marcotorres2696 Good! Then be prayerful and dutiful toward your earthly rulers, but let your true allegiance lie with the Christian Church with whom you share one Holy Spirit.
When talking about this subject I will often combine Christian nationalism, Dominionism, and Seven Mountain Mandate followers to give a better overview of what this 'cloister' is. Continue on and you will see the Latter Day Rain movement folding over into the Manifest Sons of Destiny, the hyper-charismatics, and the new age teachings that have crept into all of this. It's cancer. They're all working together in the long run and most all have or promote their own Houses of Justice. You have the seven noahide laws (and the new ten commandments at Mount Sinai this month)... You have the Baha'i faith House of Justice. You have hyper nationalists that want to go back to stoning and death sentences for sin.... People need to pay close attention because this is what is morphing. Andrea.
Ok... So I'll lump you in with the atheists, leftists, communists, and every other God hater that opposes discipline the nations as Christ instructed his Church to do. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if your broad brush is acceptable, mine is just as acceptable. I'd rather propose that we be reasonable and deal with all those very different groups on a case by case bases instead of lying to ourselves and pretending like they are all exactly the same.
Hi Dr. Jordan, I appreciate your thoughtful reflection and wrestling with the topic. I agree with many of your points though I think we diverge on a few topics. When it comes to the role of religion and country, it’s important to keep in mind that when we protect the rights of others, we also protect our own rights. Some of what you discussed touches on this. Who’s religion? For many of us, our ancestors fled other countries to flee persecution. Would we want to create a new version of this? Someone commented about Jefferson in another comment. I suggest another reading of history, because Jefferson fought hard to keep religion out of state in Virginia and cared so much it’s on his tombstone. I’m fervently Christian and speak openly often about my faith. Though, for instance I oppose Christian prayer in public school. If Islam, Hindu, whatever was suddenly in power and a state faith for whatever reason, I’d never want my kids to be forced into another faith practice or even encouraged by the school. God gives us free choice. We need to respect others and allow their freedom and choice as much as ours. I’m also patriotic and generally (at least in our more unified days) been very proud of our nation. Yet, I think believing our nation is somehow the chosen nation is dangerous, unbiblical and frankly idolatrous. We need to turn our eyes away from ourselves and follow the greatest commandments as our Lord commanded. Love the Lord God with heart, mind and soul and love our neighbors as ourselves. To love neighbors as ourselves, we have to recognize their free will. We just need to be better, more loving Christians that live the fruits of the spirit and then even more will follow Christ. While I’m writing, I wanted to address the sanctity of life in the womb and separation of church and state. I believe all life is sacred and I don’t think I personally would have chosen an abortion aside from rape or some really terrible situation. Though, I think it’s interesting and important to note that our Jewish brothers and sisters (and possibly our Lord because He is and was Jewish) believe for the most part that life doesn’t begin until the first breath. Just as God breathed life into Adam, they believe God breaths life into us and the living breathing mother takes precedence in all situations before birth. They also consider the health and mental health of the mother more important than the fetus. Many other people also believe life begins at birth. Whether that is our belief or not, again separation of church and state should be our focus to also protect our rights on many issues. Not only that, but I highly encourage reading what the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and Amnesty International say about the right to safe healthcare and eliminating forced birth. The abuse and toll on women is a human rights violation and certainly does not love neighbor as self. The church needs to do a better job of not judging, educating in love, supporting, destigmatizing diverse family types, etc to prevent people from ever having to carry these difficult burdens in the first place. We have many people abandoning the church. I think it’s because hypocrisy that claims to be love, but isn’t and selfishness and self righteousness that do not display the fruits of the spirits or represent the light of Christ in love. Let’s love better. Peace and blessings to you all.
Shouldn't these conversations start with scripture? For instance... Where is Christian nationalism or any nationalism found in the New Testament? Of course one can go back to the Old Testament and see that scriptures there support nationalistic wars etc. But if anyone feels that the situation changes at the advent of Jesus Christ then we should focus on His gospel. Jesus told Pilate, "My Kingdom is not of this world." In addition the early church fathers until Constantine mucked everything up were strong advocates that true Christians live under a Christ's Kingdom as opposed to the kingdom(s) of this world. A great resource is the early church expert, David Bercot. One can RUclips search his studies on the two kingdoms. You will hear scripture there AND quotes from the apostles and their disciples on this subject.
If it were a Christian state; Christian's would still be very separate and segregated. They would still argue who sect is right. It would be a hot mess.
I only look to the coming Theocratic Monarchy of King Christ and the establishment of His Holy Dominion; that could not come soon enough, if that makes me a Christian Nationalist then I am happy to bear that title.
Very well said. Particularly, at the 6-7 minute mark, the term became an elastic one applied to any religious person concerned with suppression of religious and religiously-based ideas; in essence people doubting the dominant Academic/Media Elite narrative of public life. For the most part, the term is used by highly secular people.
If you believe that secularism is a religion, can any nation exist without one dominant religion that influences/advise the state? Even during the Roman Empire, the Roman religion dominated while others compromised to adhere to the dominant religions. I believe any state without one dominant religion is unrealistic and will break apart.
Secularism is a worldview. but not a religion. And the American brand of Christianity is something that has little in common with what Lutherans would understand as biblical. Moreover, the confusion of the Two Kingdoms isn't necessary to argue for the moral Law- which, as Paul points out, is written on the human heart and is not restricted to Christians- has a legitimate place in the political realm. It's the common property of the human race. Don't fall into the secularist trap of confusing morality and religion. The concepts are certainly related, but they are far from identical.
I do believe that church and state should be separated Because the house of God so for worship. Nothing else However if you love your nation fine but there a time and place Another excellent presentation @dr Jordan Cooper 🙏
@@LUSK-OUTDOORS I think you have that backwards. The context is to keep the state from running churches. Also how does supporting the constitution make you a Christian Nationalist? Last time I checked the constitution wasn't divinely inspired
I’ve been aware for about sixty years that there are voters in the United States who are “moderate” in the sense of not subscribing to the ideology of either the right or the left and who vote for whichever candidates they think are less or least extreme. In the discussion about the role of religion in politics (or vice versa), there are some definitions I think are helpful: Religion is the sum of those beliefs, practices and prohibitions that pertain to a person’s concept of the highest powers of the universe. For those who believe it is inappropriate for civil governments (at any level) to either inhibit or promote religious beliefs or practices, it is appropriate to note that much of what is happening in the political arena right now, while ostensibly “secular” is, nonetheless, based on some very basic assumptions about the nature of the universe and the place or role of humans in the universe. On that basis, it is important for moderates (especially young people who might be mature enough to actually consider alternatives to the extremists at both ends of the political spectrum) to realize that politicians at BOTH ends of the spectrum are encouraging religious zeal to promote their ideals and the policies they think are most likely to produce their ideas of utopia. There is as much danger at one end of the spectrum as at the other end. AND the farther the political scale tips in EITHER direction, the more likely it is that an overcorrection will cause us to crash into the ditch on the other side of the road.
9:44 - 9:54. I’m a Roman Catholic, but wouldn’t call myself a Christian Nationalist. I am (I think) decently familiar with the different political categories right-leaning Catholics tend to put themselves under and I’ve never once heard any of them say anything as extreme as what you stated here. I’m not saying that you are intentionally misrepresenting, but would you please produce a reference to an article, podcast, etc. wherein this claim is made?
I think he was briefly describing the beliefs of the Integralists/integrists. TBH I think they would put it in more nuanced terms than him, saying that the papacy rules by means of a catholic monarchy or a Catholic legislature.
I'm Christian but not a Christian nationalist. One chief reason being, I am not a nationalist. Obedience to lawful authority is one thing. Nationalism ( briefly, the attitude: my country right or wrong) is typically idolatry and heresy. Again, love of one's country can be true and noble, without idolizing that country. Our citizenship is in heaven. Here, we are strangers and pilgrims. God preserve us from a government that is nationalistic, whether it claims to be Christian or not.
The Trump Brand of Christian Nationalism is the least worrisome one from what I’ve found. Like that’s where I started speaking/preaching against it. I live in the south and can see its effect on people in my area. Lately, I’ve found the Twitter-sphere of more established Protestant denominations and Catholics who are in line with it, and their hyper intellectual (faux in my opinion) approach is VERY TROUBLING. I see a HUGE disregard of Scripture all the way around along with a poor view of history. I may check out your 2 kingdoms talk. In a cultural climate where politics is the religion of America, I am most comfortable proclaiming the eternal kingdom where my citizenship lies. Scripture is most clear on that. Otherwise, I’ll do my best to be a good citizen of the visible kingdom around me as that is also clear in Scripture.
If we go entirely literal with definitions, a Christian Nationalist is just a patriotic Christian. I agree though that the Star Spangled Banner probably doesn’t need to be opening church services. Where the issue gets really dicey is that we see increasingly government interjecting in churches until discussions about sin can not avoid present laws. For example how can we teach about sexual immorality when the government has forced non binary bathrooms into Christian schools? How can we say God knit you in the womb and avoid discussing abortion? How can we say here there is no Jew of Greek Scythian or barbarian but then have a BLM mural? How can a church that was open through plagues, wars, Spanish influenza, and persecution to death quietly keep the doors locked for a 99% survivable illness? Perhaps a new “Christian Nationalism” idea is needed where we are willing to loose tax write offs to speak the truth about political issues that overlap biblical issues. Martin Luther certainly did when he called Hebert VIII a “strumpet” for divorcing his wife. If Martin Luther walked into a church today would he recognize it? Did Peter or Paul follow the Roman laws that contradicted Christianity or did he die a martyr over them? Standing up for Christian faith against the government killed every apostle except John.
Just to be clear I am agreeing with you, I just think that churches avoiding political issues is also not good. As is said, politics are downstream of culture so anyone with these new age beliefs in the congregation should hear the truth and stop voting for Nero.
Jordan, thank you for posting this video. However, to anyone searching for further info on this topic, I found Matthew Everhard's video provides a lot more helpful information like articulating the three kinds of Christian Nationalism and going on to critique them. If anyone is interested, here's the link: ruclips.net/video/5VxJ3dBourI/видео.html&ab_channel=MatthewEverhard Jordan, I hope you don't mind me sharing the link, I just want Christians to be informed on this :)
The founders believed in civic virtue where they saw religion in society positively. The government should be affirming of faith in society and in no way show any hostility. However, the government should in no way impose any theocratic order, nor should it give any preference or privilege to one church or religion over another.
I look forward to more content from you concerning this topic. The “blending” of faith and state is truly a disastrous movement for the visible church.
"Nationalism" is a difficult term to pigeon hole. It can take so many forms. Probably the closest in recent times is Nazi Germany. It's often referred to as fascist, but not really. Italy was a truer form of facism. Nazism was an amalgamation. Nationalist, socialist, fascist. But primarily national socialist. These terms get bantered around without a strong understanding of what they truly mean. Soviet Russia wasn't Marxist. It qas Marxist/Leninist, then Marxist/Stalinism. Then a complete change under Khrushchev to a Soviet/Nationalism. Facism and communism are just two sides of essentially the same coin. We've really only seen a few true forms of government. Monarchy- absolute and constitutional. Republics, mob democracies and outright dictators. It's really best that Christians follow Christianity and politics follow politics. Do the best you can to elect proper officials. But always remember- they're all fallible. In the end, a republic or a constitutional hereditary monarchy are the only proven forms that work. You'll never have a truly Christian Nation because you will never have truly Christian people. We follow Christ we do the best we can but in the end we are all sinners and we're going to mess things up. Which is why check and balance system is so vitally important.
11:20 excellent point regarding what type of Christianity would win. It would certainly be non-denominational believers baptism easy believism health wealth prosperity amalgamation. I say this as a Baptist and fully support Church autonomy and believers baptism. But regardless I don't want Paula White Benny in Joel Osteen creflo Dollar or any of these other clowns having more say than they already do
I'm in a state church with the head of state also being head of church. And I think it's very good. I guess I'm a Christian Nationalist. But I have no patience for those going about trying to prove from the Bible that it ought to be exactly this way. This is just the best way given the context, and it is what made our society possible, completely obviously, and as active participation in this order of things diminishes, it seems to me people are pulled apart socially, and start activites all over the place in stead of finding their place where they are.
ultimately, the question is what is being communicated. Setting aside people assigning the label to others, the people who self-ascribe to the label are universally using it as a dog whistle for Christian based extremism. The term is poison, as you identify, so you have to ask "what purpose does describing oneself with the poisonous term serve".
We have a Christian nation but the Christianity is ELCA. We should strive for a Christianity that looks more like a cross between Fulton Sheen and Doug Wilson.
I think that much of American Christianity genuinely confuses the American Dream with the Gospel. It was an easy leap for those who believe the Prosperity nonsense.
Honoring veterans, pledging the flag, patriotic songs, etc. do not belong in a church service. I will gladly honor veterans and sing Yankee Doodle dandy all day but not in Church. God and Country has taken over churches. Our allegiance is to God alone.
I am a strong believer in Luther from everything he said that I know about up until his death. He was right when he warned the world about a certain people too. May be a little harsh but people were different then in that they wanted the truth rather than sugarcoating. Or should I say for those that don’t get it yet political correctness which is nothing but Marxism in disguise. Try reading what CFW Walther said in his book communism Socialism. I have that also and he said communism was totally incompatible with Christianity and he was warning the West already then in his days of the 1870s!!! He spoke negatively of the government and called it sinful that the government would give away millions of acres for the railroads in these big oligarchs and it’s true and just look at this disaster today. That’s called communism. And we have been lied to so much by this media and the government and this communism that we are in and it started many decades ago but anyway here is Dr. Luther and his words and a very good write up about Christian nationalism and nationalism and I am all for it as are many people and if you go back and look at history you will see Europe was always white Anglo Saxon and then all the little countries were also except where they were invaded by the Turks and the Moors and the Hotentots and the mongrels. German blood ran in the streams for centuries protecting its people and now this world government is just bringing in these people that are too stupid and destroying Europeans and crime is higher than it’s ever been… ever wonder why? Read the Coolidge 1924 immigration law because people didn’t want all these other people coming in here already then and the melting pot is a lie because nobody was into that back then but today we have the woke culture and even these boomers that are too ignorant to see the truth but thankfully people are starting to wake up. I just hope it’s in time. Christianity is shameful today even in many Lutheran Churches…it isn’t like it should be. And I am a German Lutheran and not liberal at all but into the Bible and into Christian nationalism and the Constitution which should support Christianity and not try to get rid of it like they are now! School prayer is gone. Let’s get some Dr. Luther quotes on that. And abortion is murder and yet we murdered 60 million babies and it’s because nobody understands Christianity anymore!!!!
And now an explanation on Christian nationalism and Luther was a bible believing ethno nationalist. Are you aware that my great grandparents took my grandparents to a church for schooling from grades one through eight and a pastor taught the schooling? It’s funny how that generation didn’t have all the crime and the churches were full then because people were together with their own kind and Christianity was promoted and that was the days of good Lutheranism. Today Marxism has taken over and made everything secular and it certainly shows. Oh I know all about this and I know I won’t get one peep but I never shut up. I am one of many many millions of Americans who are fed up with dancing around the eggs. I want them bad eggs smashed with truth and I am with the majority to because people are waking up and they’re sick and tired of not offending people because we need to start offending people and telling the truth and I’m gonna put some Dr Luther quotes on here to about schools and everything else ……….About a year after the historic victory for the Lutherans at the Diet of Augsburg, the father of the Reformation wrote a little-known pamphlet entitled Martin Luther’s Warning to His Dear German People (1531), in which he expressed a nationalist love for his own nation. The pamphlet was intended to supplement the Torgau Declaration of German Protestants, accepted in 1530, which affirmed the right of the Christian German people to an armed defense of their fatherland against foreign imperial forces. Endorsing the Declaration, Luther now wrote in this pamphlet: Oh ye unhappy men, who are now leagued with the Pope at Augsburg! your posterity will have eternal cause to blush at your names, and hear with shame, that their forefathers acted thus. Oh disgraceful Diet! such as was never held before, nor ever shall be, in all future time; an eternal blot on every prince, on the whole empire collectively, and one which has degraded the Germans before God and the whole world! What will the Turk and his whole empire exclaim, when they hear of such untold enormities in our country? What will the Tatar and the Muscovite exclaim? Who under the sun, will in future esteem the Germans, or regard us in any respect as honest men, when they hear that we have submitted to be made such fools and blockheads by the Pope and his maskers. . . . Truly, every German might well lament, that he was born on this polluted soil, or that he bears the name of German. Luther placed an exceptionally high value not only on the national sovereignty of his own people, but made an explicit covenantal connection between posterity and their ancestors: Germans are to act with pride as Germans, so that their German descendants can have reason to honor and venerate them. Furthermore, Luther argued that his own nation must demand the respect of other nations, and he regarded the high estimation of his own race by others as vital. National shame and guilt are to be avoided and were presented as disgraceful by the German Reformer. Contrast these views of the father of Protestantism to the anti-white views regarding racial guilt expressed by modern Protestants. Luther then continued: I will, according to the duty of a faithful teacher, warn my beloved countrymen against their danger, and their ruin. . . . I seek not my own, but your welfare and salvation. Luther desired his race and nation to continue to exist and prosper as such. He saw it as a calling to teach the true gospel of Christ to his German kinsmen in particular, because he knew that their long-term continued existence would be dependent upon true repentance unto the Gospel of Christ. Luther held a particular and special love for his own nation. He truly was a Bible-believing ethno-nationalist.
I’m with you brother, and you are not alone. ((they)) have so repudiated and blasphemed Our Lord that their is no harmony and no tolerance for these antagonists of Christ. Also you should seek out the documentary Europa The Last Battle for affirming and bolstering content to the postulations you essay. ✝️
How is Christianity different from Christian nationalism? Excerpt From Christianity Today (February 2021) Christianity is a religion focused on the person and work of Jesus Christ as defined by the Christian Bible and the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds. It is the gathering of people “from every nation and tribe and people and language,” who worship Jesus (Rev. 7:9), a faith that unites Jews and Greeks, Americans and non-Americans together. Christianity is political, in the sense that its adherents have always understood their faith to challenge, affect, and transcend their worldly loyalties-but there is no single view on what political implications flow from Christian faith other than that we should “fear God, honor the king” (1 Pet. 2:17, NASB), pay our taxes, love our neighbors, and seek justice. Christian nationalism is, by contrast, a political ideology focused on the national identity of the United States. It includes a specific understanding of American history and American government that are, obviously, extrabiblical-an understanding that is contested by many historians and political scientists. Most importantly, Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are, at best, extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them. Can Christians be politically engaged without being Christian nationalists? Yes. American Christians in the past were exemplary in helping establish the American experiment, and many American Christians worked to end slavery and segregation and other evils. They did so because they believed Christianity required them to work for justice. But they worked to advance Christian principles, not Christian power or Christian culture, which is the key distinction between normal Christian political engagement and Christian nationalism. Normal Christian political engagement is humble, loving, and sacrificial; it rejects the idea that Christians are entitled to primacy of place in the public square or that Christians have a presumptive right to continue their historical predominance in American culture.
Thank you. I totally agree with your analysis. However, Christian Nationalism as a movement among conservative politicians today is very frightening. We should ponder not just the establishment of a state church in various areas of Germany in the past , but also another kind on nationalism that was so popular in Germany in the 30's, and how the use of quotes from the Bible and Martin Luther justified the draconian measures and horrors that followed changes in the government. I would feel more comfortable if Christians used other terminology to explain there involvement in government and law. Christian Nationalism as a movement just scares the ==== out of me.
To those of you advocating for a state religion either softly or explicitly, our Lord Jesus, King and creator the Universe could have established a government theocracy 2000 years ago here on earth. That is actually what the Jewish people of the first century thought the Messiah would do, and why some didn’t believe. He could have shined like light and wiped all else off the earth with a Gandalf style show of power….But, He didn’t. Why, because His kingdom isn’t like our earthly kingdoms and His kingdom relies on freewill, peace and grace. Jesus did set into motion all that must take place for the true kingdom to come. Any earthly kingdom who grabs power for themselves and declares their way all knowing and the greatest will be made low. The impatience of Christians for their own way, power and authority has over the centuries claimed the lives of millions through horrific atrocities. This same fear of morality, self righteousness, and lack of time has has time and time again been evil claiming to be good and has led well meaning people to support hatred, dehumanization, torture, slavery, genocide and all other manners of things opposite of our Lord. These same things have constantly damaged the relationships of people to the church. Turn towards the Lord (the meaning of repent) and live only as Christ directed his disciples to fulfill the law through loving God and loving neighbor as self. Live in partnership with the Holy Spirit to live out the fruits of the spirit. Only then will the kingdom be ready to come at the appropriate time when God deems. (which not even the Son knew). Follow the voice of our shepherd. It’s always filled with love and peace.
As a descending opinion, religion is not necessary for developing societal morality, it’s laws and it’s regulations. If you have issues with a secular state, you ultimately have issues with other religions and different beliefs from your own, which you have claimed in this video. A Christian base would be nice, so long as it isn’t this type or that type, so on and so forth. There is no true way to choose a foundation with a religious base without excluding whole swaths of different types of people as this only leads to persecution. Let people believe whatever they want but government needs to be completely independent and objective using basic human rights of freedom not based in religion.
Seriously, if you have to prevaricate to this level, then you know that your "mediating view" is untenable. "There's got to be a middle ground" is the ultimate bad-faith position to hold. There is no basis for the church's involvement in the state at all. "Everybody" doesn't think that Christian principles should animate policy or law. In a heterogenous society, upholding the inviolability of a secular state that is sworn to stay out of religious affairs, in return for religious state that vows to not meddle in secular affairs---that is the only tenable position; the only position that doesn't require the shifty logic on display here. There is no dishonor in asserting, along with Christ, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." It is useful to quote the entire passage in Mark in which Jesus made this statement, because it shows what's really at work underneath all this prevarication: °°°°°°°°°° *Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone’s opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.* °°°°°°°°°° "Swayed by appearances." That's the tortured path that leads good men to accept evil in their midst, disguised as devotion to Christian principle.
You raise a lot of the same points I've brought up concerning this issue. Dr. Andrew Walker of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary did an interview on Issues, etc., earlier this week about this very topic, and said many of the same things you did. For me it boils down to these points: 1.) John 18:36-Whenever the more "extreme" versions of CN comes up, this verse always seems to be either ignored or downplayed 2.) Nowhere in the New Testament epistles is there anything even hinting at a mandate for Christians to take over the government and run it. On the contrary, the assumption seems to be that government will NOT be ours to wield. 3.) CN seems to be the poster child for the Federal Vision moment and postmillennial eschatology, both of which have points that are at variance with the Scriptures 4.) CN almost comes across as a substitute for preaching Christ crucified. Political victory seems to be prioritized over sound doctrinal preaching. 5.) As you mentioned in the video, the question is "Christian Nationalism according to whom?" Puritan Calvinists have a VERY different idea about this than Roman Catholics, or Anglicans and Baptists, Pentecostals vs Orthodox, etc. Whose idea of Christian Nationalism gets to take precedence? I would remind people that the Puritan Calvinism in the U.S. was not always friendly toward confessional Lutheranism ( see www.intrepidlutherans.com/2016/07/when-government-forbids-orthodox.html ). And having a vague Christendom does more to hurt the Church than help it: our lack of doctrinal convictions on particulars in modern Christianity is evidence of this. 6.) Frankly, the church should be more focused on addressing the heterodoxy and heresy within its own ranks first. We want Christian marriage in the U.S., yet many churches ignore the biblical doctrine of marriage and divorce. We abhor the LGBTQ+ movement, yet there are churches who seem to tolerate people living together outside of marriage. 7.) When the church tries to court politics, it often leaves Christ behind. I think of Pat Robertson, who was markedly different after his presidential bid, often worrying more about legislation than the theology that was being espoused on the 700 Club that at times flirted with false doctrine. Or people who embraced Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney as "brothers in Christ" because they had the same political views, even though Mormonism is a heretical cult. Do you see the problem? If you really want to see Christian Nationalism in a biblical sense, preach Christ crucified from the pulpit. Preach sound doctrine. Invite unbelievers to hear the same. That will go a LOT further than any campaigns or legislation, both in this world and in the world to come.
Considering that you mentioned the state church in Germany going liberal and the orthodox lutherans left to America to be orthodox maybe you should do a series on the history of the Lutheran church. It’ll be nice to get more of a history lesson and how we went from Luther to today’s Lutheran church.
I'm planning this
Books on CFW Walther and the migration to America (Perry County, Missouri and St. Louis) lay out the details of the changes in the state back in Germany that created a bad situation for Lutherans.
Ohhhh yes please!
"What do you mean by that?" is becoming my default first question whenever any hot button topic is brought up. Because most people can't define the terms they use.
The letter from Jefferson of separation of Church and state was to keep the state out of the church not the opposite. I think if we are going to have laws it should reflect the heart of God not the evil of this world. 🤔 Christians don't get bullied into not promoting biblical morals
This is 100 percent the case
Go ahead and promote morals, but keep it neutral and make your case based on reason, not on the authority of an Ayatollah, Pope, or Council. Once you cross that line and the State bows to one of these authorities, you're pushing a whorish tyranny and opening the door to a persecution of the true Church of God.
Have you not read the constitution?
What are “Biblical” morals? The biblical morals I subscribe to are reflective of the love and grace of Jesus Christ. These morals lead me by the fruits of the spirit to embrace love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, generosity, and self control (Galatians 5:22). If Christians in this nation or any nation truly embraced these without force, we would see the Kingdom come much closer. Many of the morals discussed related to Christian nationalism do not follow these spiritual seeds and fruits. Impatience says, it must be my version of Christianity. Fear, deludes us into forgetting that all people are children of God and dehumanizing others. Lack of self control allows us to follow leaders spewing hate and unrest instead of the joy and grace filled voices that represent Christ and the spirit. Luther said terrible things at the end of his life against Jewish people. Hitler and supremacists twist these words yet today. Our selfishness gets in the way of truly hearing the voice of our Lord and truly seeking legitimate, scholarly and institutionally respected data which leads us to truth and the love of our neighbor. If “Christian morality” was truly of Christ, it would be an easy non-judgemental, healing and loving pill for others to swallow. We can live just fine in the tension of the now and not yet of the kingdom. Now I have a strong faith which doesn’t compromise my values and honors Christ to the fullest, and the not yet of living in patience as our Lord does for others to fully bring the kingdom and to wait for their free will to recognize Him through us. We need to do a better job of representing Him.
@@jennifercole5117 I agree with a lot of what you say but I would say that your handicapping Christians. Judging is something fundamental to Christian faith. Otherwise we wouldn't even care about morals and just go with the flow. We judge and assert for righteousness in the name of God since we are the light of this world. Of course before we judge others we must judge ourselves. Also I think this type of thinking is a bit naive. The truth can seem very offensive or even targeted sometimes because that's what it means to be convicted. No criminal enjoys being told they are quilts in a court of law. I appreciate your time sister and I hope you're blessed.
PS Christians don't always reflect Christ well. I think this is something we all struggle with.
I believe the terms Nationalism & Nationalist often get confused in society as do Progressive/Progressivism, Conservative/Conservatism and Liberal/Liberalism.
Your commentary is spot on.
I think you are referring to the moderatism vs the extremism of each category. However, can you really just stay moderate? The conflict of ideas is a war of minds. Consider the Islamic conquest of North Africa and the Levant. It became a capital offense to share the gospel and convert to Christianity. It's too idealistic/utopian to think that society balance itself without one extremism to another. Can a scale truly balance itself when one side has all the weights at the end of that side while the other side put weights in the middle?
I agree with you that American Christianity is a mess. I believe that as Christians we must simply advocate for righteousness in both the culture and the state. Unfortunately the term Christian Nationalism is simply used as a tool to keep Christians silent about any cultural/political issues in general. It doesn't matter if you have good theology or if you believe America is the new Jerusalem, ultimately (if it is convenient to those who object) you will all fall under the category of being a Christian Nationalist if you are too vocal about desiring righteousness out of our leaders and policies.
We should call ourselves “Christian Exclusive People”: only Christ is King and everything cultural or political should derive from this truth.
You are a very reasonable theological voice. I appreciate your perspective on these controversial issues. Thank you.
Another great commentary. Your videos are excellent. Thank you. 🇨🇦👍
Another great presentation! Thank you.
We are utterly and singularly in a neo-Babel moment. It's not a confusion of languages but a confusion of the definition of words. We all have different meanings for the same words. It's causing the same kind of fights as years ago... Something is confusing our language.
Yes, a state church is bad. Reality is that we currently have one: secularism in pagan form
Rather, a society that bases it's morality on the teaching of Christ would be much preferred. If we can say that humans are not the final moral authority, that the 10 commandments are divinely inspired, and that loving God and loving others is foundational, we are on the right track
I would love to live in a society where the 10 Commandments are the law of the land, but that society still wouldn't exist in a Catholic or Protestant-led society because both religions reject the Decalogue as something Christ supposedly came to abolish.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 depends on the branch of each, most people I know of both see them at least as very good and unintentionally follow them
I believe that Jesus Christ should be declared the King of America and that our laws should punish evil and reward virtue.
The crux of the issue comes down to the fact that many current prominent Christian voices will not assert Christian interests publicly or on others (not to force salvation but to restrain evil). Classical 2K would seem to be perfectly aligned with making this better
In the same way there is no such thing as a neutral education as you’ve stated in previous podcasts, There is always a state religion, always, no true neutral government can exist. To ignore this is to allow other’s state religions to reign. Laws gain their foundation from that state church’s principles, whether it be a secular enlightenment church, islamic, buddhist, or Christian. Our current state religion is a twisted post Christian, enlightenment one and our laws have begun to reflect such.
I don’t agree with many of the vocal Christian nationalists on what governement should look like (as in republican democracy, etc), but i absolutely agree with them on how the moral foundations of our legal system should reflect biblical ones.
This has been the only consistent theme i’ve seen in what is put forth as Christian nationalists and why i’d be willing to take on the moniker.
Additionally, anyone pushing for Chrisitan morals in lawfare and governance is and will be labelled a Christian Nationalist. You can nuance your position all you want, but the enemies of Christianity realize that governing according to biblical principles is to accept a different state religion than their own (though yhey won’t use such language) and will label you and attempt to destroy you unless you give in to their state religion’s legal principles.
All that to say, if you want a government and laws that punish evil and promote the good, you’re gonna be a Christian Nationalist.
I know this has nothing to do with the video but I would really love to see you have a discussion with Michael Lofton from Reason and Theology. He’s reacted to your video on the Magisterium and said he wanted to have you on the show. Thanks for your hard work!
Have you read the recent translations of Friederich Julius Stahl into English by Ruben Alvarado? I highly recommend it. Even just the biography entitled “Authority, Not Majority” changed my mind on so much. He was truly a genius in my opinion.
Dr. Cooper, could you do a follow up video on Andrew Torba’s book? It’s a very short read and what it says in there seems to directly contradict what has been portrayed as Christian nationalism in this video. I am neutral towards Christian Nationalism at this point, but would like to hear a scholarly biblical response to the most coherent and popular version of Christian Nationalism, i.e. Andrew Torba’s Christian Nationalism book.
The term "Christian "Nationalism" is a term I hear often in the media but have never heard otherwise. I don't ever recall anyone ever mentioning the term. The media often conflates the term with "White Nationalism." I do hear some Christians speak of America as being a "Christian Nation" in the sense that Christianity has been the dominant religion throughout its history and remains so today even if somewhat less so.
In terms of actual political policy the Christians who call America a Christian Nation would generally support policies that are pro-life on abortion, return of prayer to schools, etc. That is policies they see as consistent with their Christian faith.
You know, I've never figured out how prayer to the god of the lowest common denominator, the Great To Whom It May Concern, in public schools is in any way compatible with Christianity. The agenda of the Religious Right in America goes far beyond being pro-life and seeing right and wrong as revealed in the Law written on the human heart. It brews the Two Kingdoms together and, as Dr. Cooper says, tends to take its theological cues from places confessional Lutherans ought to be rather uncomfortable with.
This was quite helpful, thank you!
I was in that Twitter convo you referred to. 😏
Appreciate you and your perspective and work
Appreciate your whole approach and, considering your reference to the German state church, would you consider the Protectorate under Cromwell as a useful case study for those who are promoting the establishment of a Protestant state church in the US?
The most modern sense of the term Christian Nationalism is descriptive of a Christian "who happens to be a Nationalist." Inasmuch as the natural, default enemy of Globalism is Nationalism, most American conservatives would identify as Nationalists. To the Nationalist, Globalism embodies Communism and Totalitarianism...and is in the mind of the Christian Nationalist, the greatest threat to mankind, and especially our Republic. The accusers of Christians and Nationalists are almost invariably Progressives, and use the phrase as a pejorative equivalent to White Supremacists.
I haven't heard about this flight of orthodox Lutherans from Germany to the US. I'm interested to hear more, where can I go to read up about this?
I'm not ashamed to read Wikipedia. "Saxon Lutheran immigration of 1838-39."
Another lucid and scholarly reaction. Thanks for your continuing to shine a light on these issues, Dr. Cooper!
I really dig the jacket and pocket square. But, have you ever thought about wearing an ascot? Few can pull it off, but I think you can.
Thanks. I do have a couple videos in which I am wearing an ascot. My wife hates it though.
I am a father to young children and a husband to a wife who is very Left. I am Right Libertarian and she sees my return to faith in God and wanting to share it with my kids as essentially a form of CN. Are there any good resources for prodigal sons (daughters too) who find themselves drowning in info but starving for it at the same time? I have enough theological background that I find myself very cautious about modern churches, but not enough to really be effective at sharing ideas without sounding like I believe in fairy tales.
Leftism is of Satan. That's what you and your children (and your wife) need to know.
@@tomcoyne2690 I'm well aware of where evil resides, I'm also aware of the devil's attempts to infiltrate any and all realms of ideology.
Have you ever tried to debate/reason with someone who is university educated (indoctrinated) and a medical doctor? Most days I'd rather beat my hands against rocks. Hence why I asked for resources.
Try to explain why you first believe in God. St Thomas Aquinas’ proofs for God’s existence are really good and will show her the framework you’re operating under. Then explain why Christianity and not other religions or mere deism. This video from the apologist Bahnsen is really good at his reasoning for why Christ: ruclips.net/video/zv5OGDWU5OM/видео.html . Then I would learn more about defenses of Christ like the evidences for the resurrection and the things He taught and claiming to be God, etc. I watch a lot of Catholic apologetics but if you’re Protestant, to take it a step further see what the Protestant apologists say and how they defend the faith and try to explain why that’s the form of Christianity you believe. The capturing Christianity RUclips is really good and has some stuff on the resurrection I was just watching the other day. Hope that helps.
ruclips.net/video/l9RjWWRDNVs/видео.html
Why Christianity over other religions:
@@jawhi I really appreciate these links. Thank you so much!
Is there such a thing as Lutheran Nationalism? If there is what is Lutheran Nationalism? What does Lutheran Nationalism look like? What does a society of Lutheran Nationalism look like with state?
Is Lutheran Nationalism the same as Christian Nationalism or are they differences.
Where would the framers have had us look to define, as an example, "common good"?
The Gottesdienst Crowd released a podcast today that I think added a bit of nuance to this debate. I’m normally very wary of Christian Nationalist types, but their podcast helped me to be not so immediate critical and actually agree with at least some points people are making. Still far from calling myself a Christian nationalist though!
I have been concerned with the positive embrace of Doug Wilson and Canon Press from the guys at Gottesdienst. It's definitely starting to look like there may be similar lines in the sand drawn in Confessional Lutheranism as was done in Evangelicalism.. not a good sign.
You can also see this division in how Braaten and co. (particularly Rev. Preus) approach the idea of "Biblical Patriarchy", vis-a-vis Dr. Cooper's rejection of it. This will come to a head some day.
Gottesdienst has an excellent series of podcasts on “Bible patriarch” and feminism. Highly recommended listening to them.
@@vngelicath1580 Preus was a cultural and political conservative trying to use religion as a cudgel. He managed to align the LCMS with Evangelical Fundamentalism's cultural and political project.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
What is your view on the Scandinavian state churches
Anyone else read this title in Seinfeld's voice?
🤣
Evangelicals are a really not christians.
And what was that about Germany having a state chruch or no religious freedom (which is actually article 4 of the German constitution)?
You couldve been more Seinfeld with the title tbh
The state will use someone's values to make laws. Why not God's values? The state will use someone's standard of morality. Why not God's. The state will impose laws that people don't like, why not Gods?
Jordan, found your channel about a month ago and it’s been a blessing to listen to many of your videos. In this video you said god gave us the state. I think I agree that he did. With that said, I find libertarianism (anarchocapitalism) to be extremely intellectually attractive. Have you read up on libertarianism/anarchocapitalism in any length? A popular argument is whether or not a Christian can be an anarchocapitalist/libertarian. I’ve been thinking a lot about it personally over the years. Any thoughts on that? If not no worries. God bless.
Not that you asked me, but…
I think a Christian can theoretically be ancap, but if we’re being realistic, implementing anarchocapitalism in a secular society would lead to an outcome no Christian should want, namely poor people getting crushed under the boot of greed.
Similarly, one could theoretically be Christian and Marxist. Tenets of Marxism like wealth sharing and egalitarianism can easily align with Christianity. But here in reality, the actual outcomes of Marxism (killings, repression, revolution) are something no Christian should support.
Ron Paul was the first person who got me interested in politics, so I'm certainly sympathetic to some aspects of Libertarianism. There are, however, some aspects of Libertarian philosophy that I have a difficult time reconciling with Christianity.
@@DrJordanBCooper I have some difficulties as well. Definitely going to try to keep thinking about them. I’ll let you know if I ever get them reconciled :)
@@jordand5732 Hey Jordan, I'm a Christian and also a free market anarchist (ancap, libertarian anarchist, whatever you want to call it). I don't have difficulty reconciling my Christian views to my political philosophy. I think where some Christians get wary of libertarianism is they conflate libertarianism with libertinism (the more prominent split between "left" and "right" libertarians hasn't helped these matters but I don't want to get into libertarian infighting). Ideologically, I am a free market anarchist but what I will say is that becoming a Lutheran has made me challenge my views. While I still think an ancap society is the ideal society, coming back to the faith has made me reanalyze man through a fallen lens. I am much less optimistic that getting to an ancap society is possible and I think that it is very possible that, sadly, the existence of government might be an intrinsic outgrowth of our fallen nature. If you are looking for resources I'll point you to the Libertarian Christian Institute. It's run by good people and their podcast is good as well. I also have a published paper with my former professor Walter Block titled "Christianity, The Free Market, and Libertarianism" that you can find by typing the title and my name into google. Anyway, I know this is long but I hope you have found this helpful and feel free to reply if you would like to engage further.
@@christianlight8511 hey man, that is awesome. Working with Walter block would be one of the coolest things I can think of! That is wild! I used walters arguments from privatizing the roads for my business ethics paper back in grad school relating to getting government out of security in airports. He also really helped me think through chlorofluorocarbons and whether we needed government to step in or not. He’s been a real blessing to my life. I think from a Protestant perspective there is a lot more wiggle room to work with and that it can be really strongly argued. I’m actually a catholic, like Tom woods and Lew Rockwell, and I think it’s harder to argue that it’s acceptable for Catholics to be ancap. I definitely like the libertarian Christian site, I’ve perused it a few times and it’s great. I’ve put my libertarian study largely to the back burner recently since I’ve been struggling as to whether to be catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, or evangelical. Been praying all day long in spare moments for God to show me the way. What led you to Lutheranism, if I may ask? God bless!
Helpful distinctions and insights Mr Cooper. Thanks!
as a vet and elected official I stood behind mine but never pushed it as the official one. atheist pushed theirs.
Thanks for this video. I tried to figure it out, too, and yeah, it seems to be a common buzzword that seems to only cause more confusion and division than to actually define something. What's worse is some Christian people are now using whether you are a "Christian nationalist" as a bludgeon to determine whether you're in the kingdom or not (when they can't even agree on what it means!). It's nutty to me.
Agree!!!
I think you are compounding Christian denominalism with a multi-religious state. For a more in-depth understanding, it will be better to separate out the co-existence between Protestants/RCC/EO vs Christianity/Islam/Hinduism. Do we believe that somehow in Europe or Asia they never faced these issues?
The Christian public can always try to use there Christian values in the public square, its called the art of persuasion. Go and make an argument and see if you can get the majority to accept it. The problem is so many Christians want there values to just be accepted because they suggest it. That’s like the intelligent design folks wanting there views to be taught next to accepted science without going through the difficult process of publishing and having their theories tested by rigorous science.
Alot of people who proclaim Christ hold the state above Christ and they will be unknown to Christ and the gnashers of teeth when their hearts are exposed for their idolatry
Excellent.... very helpful.... I've also been listening to you Dr. Cooper for at least three years, I've purchased several of your books from Amazon.... and between reading the entire original King James version of the Bible, reading the Augsburg Confession and roughly 40% of the Book of Concord and also following Brian Woekfmueller, I've really come to strongly embrace Confessional Lutheranism. ...raised Catholic, went to a Catholic school until High School and then drifted off to a Jeffersonian kind of Deism... Also, there is a lot of hard work and dedication you've put into reaching your impressive scholarly achievement. Thanks...Cheers!
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people he chose for his inheritance. Psalm 33:12
The nation whose God is the Lord is the people he chose for his inheritance. Jesus did not specifically choose America for his inheritance. Jesus chose those who believe in him by the the gift of the Holy Spirit for his inheritance. Christians. The Church. Duh.
@@Mygoalwogel I agree with Mr. Duh.'s logic, which means that if this nation's God is not the Lord then we are not God chosen people.
@@marcotorres2696 Good! Then be prayerful and dutiful toward your earthly rulers, but let your true allegiance lie with the Christian Church with whom you share one Holy Spirit.
@@Mygoalwogel Now I understand that we were talking about two different things all along.
I grew up LCMS in SBC rural Texas. It was very uncomfortable as if we weren't really Christian.
When talking about this subject I will often combine Christian nationalism, Dominionism, and Seven Mountain Mandate followers to give a better overview of what this 'cloister' is. Continue on and you will see the Latter Day Rain movement folding over into the Manifest Sons of Destiny, the hyper-charismatics, and the new age teachings that have crept into all of this. It's cancer.
They're all working together in the long run and most all have or promote their own Houses of Justice. You have the seven noahide laws (and the new ten commandments at Mount Sinai this month)... You have the Baha'i faith House of Justice. You have hyper nationalists that want to go back to stoning and death sentences for sin.... People need to pay close attention because this is what is morphing.
Andrea.
100%
Ok... So I'll lump you in with the atheists, leftists, communists, and every other God hater that opposes discipline the nations as Christ instructed his Church to do. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and if your broad brush is acceptable, mine is just as acceptable.
I'd rather propose that we be reasonable and deal with all those very different groups on a case by case bases instead of lying to ourselves and pretending like they are all exactly the same.
Hi Dr. Jordan, I appreciate your thoughtful reflection and wrestling with the topic. I agree with many of your points though I think we diverge on a few topics. When it comes to the role of religion and country, it’s important to keep in mind that when we protect the rights of others, we also protect our own rights. Some of what you discussed touches on this. Who’s religion? For many of us, our ancestors fled other countries to flee persecution. Would we want to create a new version of this? Someone commented about Jefferson in another comment. I suggest another reading of history, because Jefferson fought hard to keep religion out of state in Virginia and cared so much it’s on his tombstone. I’m fervently Christian and speak openly often about my faith. Though, for instance I oppose Christian prayer in public school. If Islam, Hindu, whatever was suddenly in power and a state faith for whatever reason, I’d never want my kids to be forced into another faith practice or even encouraged by the school. God gives us free choice. We need to respect others and allow their freedom and choice as much as ours. I’m also patriotic and generally (at least in our more unified days) been very proud of our nation. Yet, I think believing our nation is somehow the chosen nation is dangerous, unbiblical and frankly idolatrous. We need to turn our eyes away from ourselves and follow the greatest commandments as our Lord commanded. Love the Lord God with heart, mind and soul and love our neighbors as ourselves. To love neighbors as ourselves, we have to recognize their free will. We just need to be better, more loving Christians that live the fruits of the spirit and then even more will follow Christ.
While I’m writing, I wanted to address the sanctity of life in the womb and separation of church and state. I believe all life is sacred and I don’t think I personally would have chosen an abortion aside from rape or some really terrible situation. Though, I think it’s interesting and important to note that our Jewish brothers and sisters (and possibly our Lord because He is and was Jewish) believe for the most part that life doesn’t begin until the first breath. Just as God breathed life into Adam, they believe God breaths life into us and the living breathing mother takes precedence in all situations before birth. They also consider the health and mental health of the mother more important than the fetus. Many other people also believe life begins at birth. Whether that is our belief or not, again separation of church and state should be our focus to also protect our rights on many issues. Not only that, but I highly encourage reading what the United Nations Commission on Human Rights and Amnesty International say about the right to safe healthcare and eliminating forced birth. The abuse and toll on women is a human rights violation and certainly does not love neighbor as self. The church needs to do a better job of not judging, educating in love, supporting, destigmatizing diverse family types, etc to prevent people from ever having to carry these difficult burdens in the first place. We have many people abandoning the church. I think it’s because hypocrisy that claims to be love, but isn’t and selfishness and self righteousness that do not display the fruits of the spirits or represent the light of Christ in love. Let’s love better. Peace and blessings to you all.
Shouldn't these conversations start with scripture? For instance... Where is Christian nationalism or any nationalism found in the New Testament? Of course one can go back to the Old Testament and see that scriptures there support nationalistic wars etc. But if anyone feels that the situation changes at the advent of Jesus Christ then we should focus on His gospel. Jesus told Pilate, "My Kingdom is not of this world." In addition the early church fathers until Constantine mucked everything up were strong advocates that true Christians live under a Christ's Kingdom as opposed to the kingdom(s) of this world. A great resource is the early church expert, David Bercot. One can RUclips search his studies on the two kingdoms. You will hear scripture there AND quotes from the apostles and their disciples on this subject.
Once again, very good job of scholarship
If it were a Christian state; Christian's would still be very separate and segregated. They would still argue who sect is right. It would be a hot mess.
I only look to the coming Theocratic Monarchy of King Christ and the establishment of His Holy Dominion; that could not come soon enough, if that makes me a Christian Nationalist then I am happy to bear that title.
Very well said. Particularly, at the 6-7 minute mark, the term became an elastic one applied to any religious person concerned with suppression of religious and religiously-based ideas; in essence people doubting the dominant Academic/Media Elite narrative of public life. For the most part, the term is used by highly secular people.
If you believe that secularism is a religion, can any nation exist without one dominant religion that influences/advise the state? Even during the Roman Empire, the Roman religion dominated while others compromised to adhere to the dominant religions. I believe any state without one dominant religion is unrealistic and will break apart.
Secularism is a worldview. but not a religion. And the American brand of Christianity is something that has little in common with what Lutherans would understand as biblical. Moreover, the confusion of the Two Kingdoms isn't necessary to argue for the moral Law- which, as Paul points out, is written on the human heart and is not restricted to Christians- has a legitimate place in the political realm. It's the common property of the human race. Don't fall into the secularist trap of confusing morality and religion. The concepts are certainly related, but they are far from identical.
Pretty simple, think of the Roman Catholic Church before 1798.
I do believe that church and state should be separated
Because the house of God so for worship. Nothing else
However if you love your nation fine but there a time and place
Another excellent presentation @dr Jordan Cooper 🙏
It's separating church from the state. Not "and". If you support the constitution you are a Christian nationalist
@@LUSK-OUTDOORS I think you have that backwards. The context is to keep the state from running churches. Also how does supporting the constitution make you a Christian Nationalist? Last time I checked the constitution wasn't divinely inspired
@@LUSK-OUTDOORS foolish comment
Separation of Church (Denominations) and State? Yes. Separation of Christian faith and State. No.
We should pray for our leaders. That’s my eschatological viewpoint. 😂
Well china who has no dog in the fight says ... we are ran by a certain cabal. So... yeah.
I’ve been aware for about sixty years that there are voters in the United States who are “moderate” in the sense of not subscribing to the ideology of either the right or the left and who vote for whichever candidates they think are less or least extreme.
In the discussion about the role of religion in politics (or vice versa), there are some definitions I think are helpful:
Religion is the sum of those beliefs, practices and prohibitions that pertain to a person’s concept of the highest powers of the universe.
For those who believe it is inappropriate for civil governments (at any level) to either inhibit or promote religious beliefs or practices, it is appropriate to note that much of what is happening in the political arena right now, while ostensibly “secular” is, nonetheless, based on some very basic assumptions about the nature of the universe and the place or role of humans in the universe.
On that basis, it is important for moderates (especially young people who might be mature enough to actually consider alternatives to the extremists at both ends of the political spectrum) to realize that politicians at BOTH ends of the spectrum are encouraging religious zeal to promote their ideals and the policies they think are most likely to produce their ideas of utopia.
There is as much danger at one end of the spectrum as at the other end. AND the farther the political scale tips in EITHER direction, the more likely it is that an overcorrection will cause us to crash into the ditch on the other side of the road.
9:44 - 9:54. I’m a Roman Catholic, but wouldn’t call myself a Christian Nationalist. I am (I think) decently familiar with the different political categories right-leaning Catholics tend to put themselves under and I’ve never once heard any of them say anything as extreme as what you stated here. I’m not saying that you are intentionally misrepresenting, but would you please produce a reference to an article, podcast, etc. wherein this claim is made?
I think he was briefly describing the beliefs of the Integralists/integrists. TBH I think they would put it in more nuanced terms than him, saying that the papacy rules by means of a catholic monarchy or a Catholic legislature.
I'm Christian but not a Christian nationalist. One chief reason being, I am not a nationalist.
Obedience to lawful authority is one thing. Nationalism ( briefly, the attitude: my country right or wrong) is typically idolatry and heresy. Again, love of one's country can be true and noble, without idolizing that country. Our citizenship is in heaven. Here, we are strangers and pilgrims.
God preserve us from a government that is nationalistic, whether it claims to be Christian or not.
The Trump Brand of Christian Nationalism is the least worrisome one from what I’ve found. Like that’s where I started speaking/preaching against it. I live in the south and can see its effect on people in my area.
Lately, I’ve found the Twitter-sphere of more established Protestant denominations and Catholics who are in line with it, and their hyper intellectual (faux in my opinion) approach is VERY TROUBLING.
I see a HUGE disregard of Scripture all the way around along with a poor view of history. I may check out your 2 kingdoms talk.
In a cultural climate where politics is the religion of America, I am most comfortable proclaiming the eternal kingdom where my citizenship lies. Scripture is most clear on that. Otherwise, I’ll do my best to be a good citizen of the visible kingdom around me as that is also clear in Scripture.
Benn thinking about this since 2015… no wait ‘01…. That being middle school for me :/
If we go entirely literal with definitions, a Christian Nationalist is just a patriotic Christian. I agree though that the Star Spangled Banner probably doesn’t need to be opening church services.
Where the issue gets really dicey is that we see increasingly government interjecting in churches until discussions about sin can not avoid present laws. For example how can we teach about sexual immorality when the government has forced non binary bathrooms into Christian schools? How can we say God knit you in the womb and avoid discussing abortion? How can we say here there is no Jew of Greek Scythian or barbarian but then have a BLM mural? How can a church that was open through plagues, wars, Spanish influenza, and persecution to death quietly keep the doors locked for a 99% survivable illness?
Perhaps a new “Christian Nationalism” idea is needed where we are willing to loose tax write offs to speak the truth about political issues that overlap biblical issues. Martin Luther certainly did when he called Hebert VIII a “strumpet” for divorcing his wife.
If Martin Luther walked into a church today would he recognize it? Did Peter or Paul follow the Roman laws that contradicted Christianity or did he die a martyr over them?
Standing up for Christian faith against the government killed every apostle except John.
Just to be clear I am agreeing with you, I just think that churches avoiding political issues is also not good.
As is said, politics are downstream of culture so anyone with these new age beliefs in the congregation should hear the truth and stop voting for Nero.
Jordan, thank you for posting this video.
However, to anyone searching for further info on this topic, I found Matthew Everhard's video provides a lot more helpful information like articulating the three kinds of Christian Nationalism and going on to critique them. If anyone is interested, here's the link:
ruclips.net/video/5VxJ3dBourI/видео.html&ab_channel=MatthewEverhard
Jordan, I hope you don't mind me sharing the link, I just want Christians to be informed on this :)
The founders believed in civic virtue where they saw religion in society positively. The government should be affirming of faith in society and in no way show any hostility. However, the government should in no way impose any theocratic order, nor should it give any preference or privilege to one church or religion over another.
I look forward to more content from you concerning this topic. The “blending” of faith and state is truly a disastrous movement for the visible church.
"Nationalism" is a difficult term to pigeon hole. It can take so many forms.
Probably the closest in recent times is Nazi Germany. It's often referred to as fascist, but not really. Italy was a truer form of facism.
Nazism was an amalgamation. Nationalist, socialist, fascist. But primarily national socialist.
These terms get bantered around without a strong understanding of what they truly mean.
Soviet Russia wasn't Marxist. It qas Marxist/Leninist, then Marxist/Stalinism. Then a complete change under Khrushchev to a Soviet/Nationalism.
Facism and communism are just two sides of essentially the same coin.
We've really only seen a few true forms of government.
Monarchy- absolute and constitutional. Republics, mob democracies and outright dictators.
It's really best that Christians follow Christianity and politics follow politics. Do the best you can to elect proper officials. But always remember- they're all fallible. In the end, a republic or a constitutional hereditary monarchy are the only proven forms that work.
You'll never have a truly Christian Nation because you will never have truly Christian people. We follow Christ we do the best we can but in the end we are all sinners and we're going to mess things up. Which is why check and balance system is so vitally important.
11:20 excellent point regarding what type of Christianity would win. It would certainly be non-denominational believers baptism easy believism health wealth prosperity amalgamation. I say this as a Baptist and fully support Church autonomy and believers baptism. But regardless I don't want Paula White Benny in Joel Osteen creflo Dollar or any of these other clowns having more say than they already do
I'm in a state church with the head of state also being head of church. And I think it's very good. I guess I'm a Christian Nationalist. But I have no patience for those going about trying to prove from the Bible that it ought to be exactly this way. This is just the best way given the context, and it is what made our society possible, completely obviously, and as active participation in this order of things diminishes, it seems to me people are pulled apart socially, and start activites all over the place in stead of finding their place where they are.
May I please be the new pope?
Yes.
Can you do an episode on Lutherans involved in the U.S. White Nationalism movement and the Neo-Nazi Movement?
ultimately, the question is what is being communicated. Setting aside people assigning the label to others, the people who self-ascribe to the label are universally using it as a dog whistle for Christian based extremism.
The term is poison, as you identify, so you have to ask "what purpose does describing oneself with the poisonous term serve".
Christian nationalism would be based
We have a Christian nation but the Christianity is ELCA. We should strive for a Christianity that looks more like a cross between Fulton Sheen and Doug Wilson.
I think that much of American Christianity genuinely confuses the American Dream with the Gospel. It was an easy leap for those who believe the Prosperity nonsense.
“Extremist version of charismatics” a nice way of saying whack jobs!!
Honoring veterans, pledging the flag, patriotic songs, etc. do not belong in a church service. I will gladly honor veterans and sing Yankee Doodle dandy all day but not in Church. God and Country has taken over churches. Our allegiance is to God alone.
Sorry Dr Cooper - unfortunately nuance is dead
I am a strong believer in Luther from everything he said that I know about up until his death. He was right when he warned the world about a certain people too. May be a little harsh but people were different then in that they wanted the truth rather than sugarcoating. Or should I say for those that don’t get it yet political correctness which is nothing but Marxism in disguise. Try reading what CFW Walther said in his book communism Socialism. I have that also and he said communism was totally incompatible with Christianity and he was warning the West already then in his days of the 1870s!!! He spoke negatively of the government and called it sinful that the government would give away millions of acres for the railroads in these big oligarchs and it’s true and just look at this disaster today. That’s called communism. And we have been lied to so much by this media and the government and this communism that we are in and it started many decades ago but anyway here is Dr. Luther and his words and a very good write up about Christian nationalism and nationalism and I am all for it as are many people and if you go back and look at history you will see Europe was always white Anglo Saxon and then all the little countries were also except where they were invaded by the Turks and the Moors and the Hotentots and the mongrels. German blood ran in the streams for centuries protecting its people and now this world government is just bringing in these people that are too stupid and destroying Europeans and crime is higher than it’s ever been… ever wonder why? Read the Coolidge 1924 immigration law because people didn’t want all these other people coming in here already then and the melting pot is a lie because nobody was into that back then but today we have the woke culture and even these boomers that are too ignorant to see the truth but thankfully people are starting to wake up. I just hope it’s in time. Christianity is shameful today even in many Lutheran Churches…it isn’t like it should be. And I am a German Lutheran and not liberal at all but into the Bible and into Christian nationalism and the Constitution which should support Christianity and not try to get rid of it like they are now! School prayer is gone. Let’s get some Dr. Luther quotes on that. And abortion is murder and yet we murdered 60 million babies and it’s because nobody understands Christianity anymore!!!!
And now an explanation on Christian nationalism and Luther was a bible believing ethno nationalist. Are you aware that my great grandparents took my grandparents to a church for schooling from grades one through eight and a pastor taught the schooling? It’s funny how that generation didn’t have all the crime and the churches were full then because people were together with their own kind and Christianity was promoted and that was the days of good Lutheranism. Today Marxism has taken over and made everything secular and it certainly shows. Oh I know all about this and I know I won’t get one peep but I never shut up. I am one of many many millions of Americans who are fed up with dancing around the eggs. I want them bad eggs smashed with truth and I am with the majority to because people are waking up and they’re sick and tired of not offending people because we need to start offending people and telling the truth and I’m gonna put some Dr Luther quotes on here to about schools and everything else ……….About a year after the historic victory for the Lutherans at the Diet of Augsburg, the father of the Reformation wrote a little-known pamphlet entitled Martin Luther’s Warning to His Dear German People (1531), in which he expressed a nationalist love for his own nation. The pamphlet was intended to supplement the Torgau Declaration of German Protestants, accepted in 1530, which affirmed the right of the Christian German people to an armed defense of their fatherland against foreign imperial forces.
Endorsing the Declaration, Luther now wrote in this pamphlet:
Oh ye unhappy men, who are now leagued with the Pope at Augsburg! your posterity will have eternal cause to blush at your names, and hear with shame, that their forefathers acted thus. Oh disgraceful Diet! such as was never held before, nor ever shall be, in all future time; an eternal blot on every prince, on the whole empire collectively, and one which has degraded the Germans before God and the whole world! What will the Turk and his whole empire exclaim, when they hear of such untold enormities in our country? What will the Tatar and the Muscovite exclaim? Who under the sun, will in future esteem the Germans, or regard us in any respect as honest men, when they hear that we have submitted to be made such fools and blockheads by the Pope and his maskers. . . . Truly, every German might well lament, that he was born on this polluted soil, or that he bears the name of German.
Luther placed an exceptionally high value not only on the national sovereignty of his own people, but made an explicit covenantal connection between posterity and their ancestors: Germans are to act with pride as Germans, so that their German descendants can have reason to honor and venerate them. Furthermore, Luther argued that his own nation must demand the respect of other nations, and he regarded the high estimation of his own race by others as vital. National shame and guilt are to be avoided and were presented as disgraceful by the German Reformer. Contrast these views of the father of Protestantism to the anti-white views regarding racial guilt expressed by modern Protestants.
Luther then continued:
I will, according to the duty of a faithful teacher, warn my beloved countrymen against their danger, and their ruin. . . . I seek not my own, but your welfare and salvation.
Luther desired his race and nation to continue to exist and prosper as such. He saw it as a calling to teach the true gospel of Christ to his German kinsmen in particular, because he knew that their long-term continued existence would be dependent upon true repentance unto the Gospel of Christ. Luther held a particular and special love for his own nation. He truly was a Bible-believing ethno-nationalist.
I’m with you brother, and you are not alone. ((they)) have so repudiated and blasphemed Our Lord that their is no harmony and no tolerance for these antagonists of Christ. Also you should seek out the documentary Europa The Last Battle for affirming and bolstering content to the postulations you essay. ✝️
How is Christianity different from Christian nationalism?
Excerpt From Christianity Today (February 2021)
Christianity is a religion focused on the person and work of Jesus Christ as defined by the Christian Bible and the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds. It is the gathering of people “from every nation and tribe and people and language,” who worship Jesus (Rev. 7:9), a faith that unites Jews and Greeks, Americans and non-Americans together. Christianity is political, in the sense that its adherents have always understood their faith to challenge, affect, and transcend their worldly loyalties-but there is no single view on what political implications flow from Christian faith other than that we should “fear God, honor the king” (1 Pet. 2:17, NASB), pay our taxes, love our neighbors, and seek justice.
Christian nationalism is, by contrast, a political ideology focused on the national identity of the United States. It includes a specific understanding of American history and American government that are, obviously, extrabiblical-an understanding that is contested by many historians and political scientists. Most importantly, Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are, at best, extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.
Can Christians be politically engaged without being Christian nationalists?
Yes. American Christians in the past were exemplary in helping establish the American experiment, and many American Christians worked to end slavery and segregation and other evils. They did so because they believed Christianity required them to work for justice. But they worked to advance Christian principles, not Christian power or Christian culture, which is the key distinction between normal Christian political engagement and Christian nationalism. Normal Christian political engagement is humble, loving, and sacrificial; it rejects the idea that Christians are entitled to primacy of place in the public square or that Christians have a presumptive right to continue their historical predominance in American culture.
It's simply wrong.
Explain how it's wrong.
Thank you. I totally agree with your analysis. However, Christian Nationalism as a movement among conservative politicians today is very frightening. We should ponder not just the establishment of a state church in various areas of Germany in the past , but also another kind on nationalism that was so popular in Germany in the 30's, and how the use of quotes from the Bible and Martin Luther justified the draconian measures and horrors that followed changes in the government. I would feel more comfortable if Christians used other terminology to explain there involvement in government and law. Christian Nationalism as a movement just scares the ==== out of me.
To those of you advocating for a state religion either softly or explicitly, our Lord Jesus, King and creator the Universe could have established a government theocracy 2000 years ago here on earth. That is actually what the Jewish people of the first century thought the Messiah would do, and why some didn’t believe. He could have shined like light and wiped all else off the earth with a Gandalf style show of power….But, He didn’t. Why, because His kingdom isn’t like our earthly kingdoms and His kingdom relies on freewill, peace and grace. Jesus did set into motion all that must take place for the true kingdom to come. Any earthly kingdom who grabs power for themselves and declares their way all knowing and the greatest will be made low. The impatience of Christians for their own way, power and authority has over the centuries claimed the lives of millions through horrific atrocities. This same fear of morality, self righteousness, and lack of time has has time and time again been evil claiming to be good and has led well meaning people to support hatred, dehumanization, torture, slavery, genocide and all other manners of things opposite of our Lord. These same things have constantly damaged the relationships of people to the church. Turn towards the Lord (the meaning of repent) and live only as Christ directed his disciples to fulfill the law through loving God and loving neighbor as self. Live in partnership with the Holy Spirit to live out the fruits of the spirit. Only then will the kingdom be ready to come at the appropriate time when God deems. (which not even the Son knew). Follow the voice of our shepherd. It’s always filled with love and peace.
As a descending opinion, religion is not necessary for developing societal morality, it’s laws and it’s regulations.
If you have issues with a secular state, you ultimately have issues with other religions and different beliefs from your own, which you have claimed in this video. A Christian base would be nice, so long as it isn’t this type or that type, so on and so forth.
There is no true way to choose a foundation with a religious base without excluding whole swaths of different types of people as this only leads to persecution.
Let people believe whatever they want but government needs to be completely independent and objective using basic human rights of freedom not based in religion.
Seriously, if you have to prevaricate to this level, then you know that your "mediating view" is untenable. "There's got to be a middle ground" is the ultimate bad-faith position to hold.
There is no basis for the church's involvement in the state at all. "Everybody" doesn't think that Christian principles should animate policy or law. In a heterogenous society, upholding the inviolability of a secular state that is sworn to stay out of religious affairs, in return for religious state that vows to not meddle in secular affairs---that is the only tenable position; the only position that doesn't require the shifty logic on display here.
There is no dishonor in asserting, along with Christ, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." It is useful to quote the entire passage in Mark in which Jesus made this statement, because it shows what's really at work underneath all this prevarication:
°°°°°°°°°°
*Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone’s opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.*
°°°°°°°°°°
"Swayed by appearances." That's the tortured path that leads good men to accept evil in their midst, disguised as devotion to Christian principle.
You raise a lot of the same points I've brought up concerning this issue. Dr. Andrew Walker of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary did an interview on Issues, etc., earlier this week about this very topic, and said many of the same things you did.
For me it boils down to these points:
1.) John 18:36-Whenever the more "extreme" versions of CN comes up, this verse always seems to be either ignored or downplayed
2.) Nowhere in the New Testament epistles is there anything even hinting at a mandate for Christians to take over the government and run it. On the contrary, the assumption seems to be that government will NOT be ours to wield.
3.) CN seems to be the poster child for the Federal Vision moment and postmillennial eschatology, both of which have points that are at variance with the Scriptures
4.) CN almost comes across as a substitute for preaching Christ crucified. Political victory seems to be prioritized over sound doctrinal preaching.
5.) As you mentioned in the video, the question is "Christian Nationalism according to whom?" Puritan Calvinists have a VERY different idea about this than Roman Catholics, or Anglicans and Baptists, Pentecostals vs Orthodox, etc. Whose idea of Christian Nationalism gets to take precedence? I would remind people that the Puritan Calvinism in the U.S. was not always friendly toward confessional Lutheranism ( see www.intrepidlutherans.com/2016/07/when-government-forbids-orthodox.html ). And having a vague Christendom does more to hurt the Church than help it: our lack of doctrinal convictions on particulars in modern Christianity is evidence of this.
6.) Frankly, the church should be more focused on addressing the heterodoxy and heresy within its own ranks first. We want Christian marriage in the U.S., yet many churches ignore the biblical doctrine of marriage and divorce. We abhor the LGBTQ+ movement, yet there are churches who seem to tolerate people living together outside of marriage.
7.) When the church tries to court politics, it often leaves Christ behind. I think of Pat Robertson, who was markedly different after his presidential bid, often worrying more about legislation than the theology that was being espoused on the 700 Club that at times flirted with false doctrine. Or people who embraced Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney as "brothers in Christ" because they had the same political views, even though Mormonism is a heretical cult. Do you see the problem?
If you really want to see Christian Nationalism in a biblical sense, preach Christ crucified from the pulpit. Preach sound doctrine. Invite unbelievers to hear the same. That will go a LOT further than any campaigns or legislation, both in this world and in the world to come.
God bless white Christian nationalist!!!!