Thanks for posting this. It was frustrating taking into account my speakers/headphones and the digitized path that sound used to get to me. Really hard to tell what improvements were real or just artifacts of the whole process.
Interesting to read your thoughts on the various speakers/set ups. And, while I can not argue against your preferences, I do think we need to acknowledge that since none of us viewers were able to actually hear them, all of our preferences are secondhand. In my original comment, I did express a different preference and while I still think that, it is because I based my preferences on what I could hear at home. The only "real" conclusion I am willing to make from this video is this: These flat panel speakers are definitely worth my time to build and hear for myself in my home. I will also say that when I do build a pair, I will not be going with the triangle shaped panels to start with--even though they were the ones that sounded best to me in this video. Because I have not *actually heard* them yet, it only makes sense to start with the original square panels and then see if any changes seem needed. I really do enjoy the videos you have posted about these speakers and I fully agree with your view of this latest video as a comparative tool rather than a definitive ranking of the various designs. Thank you for sharing this and for your thoughts on the specific designs, well done!
The dual exciters made by far the most difference on these panels. the microphones didn't exactly sound natural but it was pretty darn close. great job by the way I cannot compliment you enough for your dedication for doing this this is an absolutely amazing video and it should be in the top 100 of RUclips if you want my opinion. I am really impressed by the amount of work you put into this Bravo sir! I think I'm going to have to order some of these soon as I didn't really realize just how good these actually were at least it makes him great outdoor speakers. I think with the addition of a super Tweeter it should really make things a lot better and of course addition of a subwoofer as well. it's amazing that there really wasn't that much actual difference between the fabric in the sanded and the non sanded that I could actually hear between the different musical pieces especially when it came to the classical stuff. it did seem that the rounded edges took off a little bit of the harshness but again that's just my subjective opinion. overall grade a effort wonderful presentation!
Agreed. They showed to have the most dramatic increase in quality. I think the dynamic range was overall better because you could begin to separate the instruments from each other and the sound opened up a bit compared to the other options.
Agreed. I closed my eyes after the first cycle through the speakers, then opened them when I heard what sounded the best to me. It was usually those or the addition of the sub. 😁
dual exciter plus subwoofer was clearly head and shoulders above everything else. I'd tune the sub down a bit, for my taste, it was a little over powered, but yeah. dual exciters by a LOOOOOONG shot
I won't comment on the sound, because I'm not an expert and because it is subjective, but OMG I just HAVE to comment on the editing ! SO MANY switches without missing a beat (much less any clicks & pops) Unbelievable. Subscribed immediately. If it was done by telling siri/alexa, PLEASE nobody tell me, let me bask in the glow of artistry with visions of more to come.
I actually find personal opinions interesting. I could never understand why people argue over subjectivity. I built a set of these and felt they were in need of DSP. Some instruments sounded better than others. There was a clarity that was amazing, and a good sound stage. Very life like. The timber seemed a bit upper mid heavy, but lacking in the high registers. I was able to play an 80Hz test tone which surprised me. I agree about how the high quality of this video production.
I was listening with my eyes closed and I kept picking the same two, the dual exciter and the light fabric sets. Your set up and work in doing this is amazing. Thank you so much for taking your time, effort and money to create this content, I think its safe to say that it is greatly appreciated by all.
Thank you, Spicy! I really appreciate hearing what you thought, and am glad you liked the video. I also prefer the dual exciters and light fabric. Thanks for watching!
I’m in agreement on those choices as well! I kind of liked the single exciters with a subwoofer, but it seems like the subwoofer sometimes added too much bass! I’m thinking of trying to build the speakers in the original shape with light fabric AND dual exciters! I do have a question though, I know you treated so many options, but what about bigger panels? What if you made them 4’ X 4’? Would that have much of an effect negatively or positively?
@@Spetznatz01 Hey Steven - I have not had a chance to test them yet, but I believe that larger panels will do a better job of reproducing lower frequencies. I'd hesitate to call them a replacement for subwoofer, but they should round out the lower end better. If I ever take another swing at testing even more variations / setups, I'll be sure to include some larger panels. Thanks for watching!
@@AmplifyDIY in this video when you were talking about the speakers from the original video did that mean the exciters are placed with the 2/5--3/5 rule on both speakers or 2/5--3/5 on one panel and dead center on the other. I found the dual speaker design the most pleasing but was wondering if you could achieve the same with 2 exciters (1 dead center and the other 2/5--3/5 on the other) rather than 4 exciters with and 1 amplifier rather than 2 as I am on a tight budget. And thank you very much for all the work you put into this video. Your content is consistently some of the most helpful and enlightening on the platform.
Totally agree. I wonder what a duel exciter w/ light fabric would sound like? Also I noticed the placement was called out as 2/5 2/5 this time rather than 2/5 3/5. Was that intentional?
Two years later I stumble across this video and I am absolutely stunned. Not only by the dramatic difference in sound quality between the Klipsch and the exciter panels, but by the excellence in your scientific approach to sonically document the difference for your viewers. Thanks so much! After 50 years of speaker building I will be building my first pair of exciter panels, while spending a tiny fraction of what I typically spend on a new project. Amazing.
I watched the original Tech Ingredients video about 2 years ago and was dubious when this video (and your previous one) popped up. I admit that I'm impressed. You gave credit where credit was due and you brought a mountain of value added to the subject. I'm now adding this to my "to do" list.
@@ricksmediaarchiveyoutube9398 "Fraught with uncertainty or doubt; undecided". Yup. That describes what I initially thought when I started watching his videos. But he came through. Must be a pretty miserable life you have when the best use of your time is trying to point out perceived grammar mistakes; especially when the intent is crystal clear.
He is right though… You probably meant curious or doubtful. Dubious are things that are a cause of doubt. So no need to get that defensive. I too was unsure what you were trying to say and had to read your comment twice.
@@jpw5996 If you're going to attack someone's grammar online, make sure you're correct first. The definition I quoted is the definition I used. I was undecided on his video. I had doubts about his video. Therefore I was dubious about him and his video. Heck, even you said I should have used "doubtful" which is part of the definition of "dubious". Grammar Nazis are bad enough -- but when the Grammar Nazi is wrong is just over the top.
Issue I have is I need to know what you thought, since I only have my headphones to judge the sound. Was it worth buying the extra 2 exciters to flatten the response curve? I would also like to know if wrapping the dual is an issue.
@@boonjabby If you want a fuller more powerful sound then yes. But there are limitations to this style speaker that are inherent with the design and materials, specifically in the high and low ends. But paired with a subwoofer, you can get very satisfying sound from the system. Acoustic instruments sound best and the midrange is actually pretty good.
For context, I listened with a very good planar magnetic headphone and a dedicated headphone amp. There's a lot of nuances to be heard here. Each panel sounds different. My favorite are the original one and especially the dual driver ones. Both sounded amazing on their own and I think my preferred sound of all the combinations here are the dual driver without subwoofer. The sub was a bit too heavy and slow and definitely not at the quality level of the panel sound. You really makes me want to experiment myself now, because I wasn't expecting that level of reproduction from that cheap an investment. To hear the Klipsch after the panels was a shock. You made a great job with this video, and I shall thank you for that.
I think my favorite sound was the heavy fabric followed closely by the dual drivers, I'd like to see heavy fabric with dual drivers, possibly triple drivers 2/5 central and 3/5
@@ALGfunk no, you wire the exciters in series. It will change the impedance. (You add the impedance from each exciter.) But your amp should be able to handle the difference unless you go crazy and wire a bunch of them in series.
I built a pair a couple of weeks ago and this test is really helpful. From what I can discern, the dual exciters give a fuller sound. And I agree with most of the comments that the subwoofer was cranked too high, but that's an easy fix. I'm also hooking up a 21-band eq to reduce the mid to mid highs (which these DMLs seem to be good at producing) and boosting the mid-lows. And lastly, a slight boost to the highest frequency range. Thanks, AmplifyDIY. And for those that are laughing at these speakers as if they're crap... If you didn't build these and listen with your own ears, your opinion is not rooted in fact. But thanks for sharing... I guess?
This is THE best comparison video between versions of a theme in speakers. There are horses for courses as each example showed with the differing genres of music presented. But I'm definitely going to have a crack at making a set. Thank you so much for the effort in putting this together. Cheers Pete'.
Unsanded squares sounded crisp and incredibly exacting and accurate. However dual exciters setup was clearly the most well balanced/pleasing listening experience. The subwoofer did add a smoothness to the bottom end,but the level was much to high for my taste. The most stunning revelation was how lifeless and dead the reference speakers sounded against the panels. I own a set of those bookshelf monitors and they sound very very good,until now….. Thank you for your thorough and informative analysis.
I have the same feeling, im listening in my studio and Unsaneded square was the best sounding here. And i have the sound calibrated with soundId. I would try the dual exciters on that panel, i believe that will sound really good!
@@Donder1337 I was about to say the same. The highs are def more crisp unsanded, but are missing the mids that make the dual exciter panels sound more full.
Im listening on Klipsch speakers that has been compared to studio monitors by some reviewers. And listening to those Klipsch bookshelf speakers on my Klipsch they sounded very flat and lifeless when compared to all the other variations. And this is after RUclips's horrendous audio compression. I can imagine how much better they must sound irl.
I am planning a build that uses three exciters per panel with carbon fiber honeycomb panels, tweeter dome cutouts and a mid bass box. I may sandblast the surface. Will build it when I can find a good price on the carbon fiber
I really liked the balance from the heavy fabric one. My headphones aren't the absolute best but they are clear enough to tell the difference between ever single one of them. The heavy fabric just has a more comfortable feel to it.
I could hear a difference in each one, with my headphones and my speakers here, as well. Very interesting how these sound! I'm glad I didn't make them all, because my house would have speakers hanging everywhere and I would be fumbling to hook them all up! Haha.
Ah good, I’m not the only one to prefer the heavy fabric… though I do wonder how much of that is to do with the response of the headphones I have (which aren’t great, I don’t think.)
I think it's total weight of the panel to some extent. The heavier setups had better low response (especially the dual exciter one) but they seemed to muddy the middle a bit. I wonder what it would sound like with a bunch of weights around the edges, or in a resonance cancelling pattern like tech ingredients used. I think, because the weights have a rigid connection, that they would work to drive bass better (at a cost to total amplification) without muffling other frequencies.
I found the dual exciter with subwoofer sounded best. There was warmth in the tone. The sub sounded a bit heavy-handed and blended the best in the classical track where it helped the cellos come through. However, after RUclips compresses this video and my Bluetooth compresses it again, there's no telling what is getting lost. What an incredible video. You're a legend!
Dual exciter setup! And damn! The difference it made was incredible! When you changed from original to dual felt like going from mono to surround! Awesome job and thanks for putting so much time, energy and effort just to test something like this! Keep it up! *Edited so people get what I ment to say. Wrote it in pure joy and rambled on and missed some words 🤣
I think what makes this so good is the fact you can experiment with setups cheaply and get the best setup that suits your preference in sound, I myself am curious about mounting them Horizontally on a ceiling!
Wow, the dual exciter setup is absolutely great! Maybe you should take that idea and extend it to 5 drivers, 1 per corner and 1 in the middle to reduce resonance in the panels? Probably give a much better bass response too.
That would not be substantially different to just having one exciter in the middle. The resonances are the whole point of the exciters being offset in the first place. The 3/5th (or 2/5th if you will) distances is the Golden Ratio of a square (1/1.618... = 0.618... ~ 3/5th).
Bad idea to create them symmetricaly. It has to do with how sound travels through the board. If you place exciter in the center - there will be resonant frequencies because the distance between exciter and edges will be equal lenght and at certain frequencies they will interfere. This is why you need to make the speaker rectangle not square and place exciter so distance between exciter and edge is different for all 4 edges. The matematically ideal position of multiple exciters is by using the Fibonachi spiral as template.
@@amsb4dafunk406 Not realy. The original NXT technical documents and patents shows that “moar exciters = moar betterer”. The thing that has deminishing returns is size of the speakers. Distance between furthest edges of the speaker, to be speciffic. Larger the speaker - the lower frequencies it can produce. But if tou start to think about making DML speaker for sub-frequencies - the speaker will be so big that it will be more practical to just get a subwoofer. :D
As I've asked Tech Ingredients... I build recumbent (seated side-by-side) human powered cars. I'm always looking for ways to install amenities like in standard vehicles, yet I'm always looking to cut weight and incorporate into my designs. My brain is frying (a good thing) by thoughts of inserting something like these into my polypropylene structured doors and cabin walls. These are incredible. Oh.... Headphones? Yeah baby!
To my ear the dual exciters with subwoofer sounded the best, and dual exciters setup being a strong follower. All other modifications only worsened the thing to some degree. It was also amazing to see and hear how a tiny modification can change the sound dramatically. Unbelievable. Thanks for great video and for taking a trouble of making it.
Dual exciters sounded best. I felt like they needed bass, but the sub you had didn’t sound good to me. The heavy fabric also sounded good and i think pairing theses up would be a great idea. I would love to see dual exciters on a round shape. Thanks for an excellent video!
I agree. The normal panels have much more treble, but the subwoofer just made it sound like a cheap tv soundbar. Lots of low bass, lots of treble, but a lot less mids. The fabric and dual exciters were definitely the best, and I’d like to see how they would sound paired up.
@@brianburke808 That's the problem with these panel speakers. You have to set the sub high-pass to around 150 hz because these speakers have precious little deep bass no matter how large the panels are. If you cross the sub high and place it in between the speakers, you should be able to get a good blend.
I'd love to hear dual exciters with heavy and light fabric. Or, in my opinion Heavy fabric middle and Light fabric offset per channel may be the best option. Also some size variations would be interesting and possibly circle with middle mount for lows because i think that may help Either way, fabric does add something unexplainable that makes them better than the rest.
this is exactly what I was thinking, the fabric is taking some sharpness out of it i think, and Im surprised that the dual exciters worked out. also interesting that i think the fixed mount had a bit more natural low to it, but being mounted to those tripods vs a wall would be interesting too
Wow! Thanks lots. So thorough! I have been dancing the idea around in my head for well over a year now, since I saw that original video on how to use the actuators. I have lots of decor ideas to blend the speakers seamlessly, but they all depend upon so many variables I didn't have answers to that my plans usually end with me chasing my tail, metaphorically, not being able to pin any sure starting points down without lots of false starts. Tada! You answered nearly everything I wondered, so I can mix and match with reasonable knowledge to start from. Thank you so much!
I know you did the triangles, and that was appreciated (and an interesting sound) but I believe the /original/ idea was to have a rectangular shape in order to produce additional wavelengths than even a square with an offset exciter could do. Based on this video, I'll be making rectangular speakers with dual exciters, covered with light fabric and a subwoofer. I probably won't bother doing much sanding as I didn't notice much of a difference. Thank you for doing all the work to make this video! Super helpful!
My favorite was the dual with sub support, but for my personal taste the sub could be turned down a decent bit to make it just a support speaker. Amazing video, I can see lots of work was put in, not just in the setup of all the speakers, but the immaculate mixing of sound during the speaker swaps. I may have to talk my wife into letting me set up a set like this :D
First off, Let me Thank You for an amazing video. Your dedication and attention to detail on editing really created some of the best content I've ever enjoyed on RUclips. Second, I took a page from your playbook, and used 3 different high quality headphones and then finally, through my speaker array to listen to your results. I must say, ALL of your home made speakers sounded amazing, no matter what I used to listen. Personal preference? The duals with the subwoofer. Hands Down. The rich, full sound won me over... I am a huge fan of Klipsch Speakers, but I found them to sound rather dull in comparison. (that says a lot!) Your attention to detail when editing was most impressive though. Seamless. I subbed, liked, and am going to try to locate 4 identical exciters now, and make my own set to replace this stack of various speakers in my hobby room. (keeping my 300 watt sub though!) Again, THANK YOU for your hard work and attention to details!
I don't understand why, but the dual exciters seemed more "solid" both in sound and imaging, while not giving up the "airiness" of the original design. The subwoofer with those (if the sub was turned down some, maybe a lower rolloff point set too) would be a pretty amazing set! Most of the others sounded similar to me, with the triangles sounding as I expected they would (a hair thinner) but having a nice "lift" in the physical soundstage. I thought the biggest disappointment were the Fixed Mount panels... to my ears they had a harsh edge compared to the other panels. Absolutely fascinating! I want to see what happens if you size up the panels, and if there's a point of diminishing returns on size increase, or if you could hang 50 ft x 50 ft panels from a crane and have it sound better than whatever the previous step down would be... lol
I too am curious about 50x50ft 😂 -or other large sizes.. and if 2 exciters was good... More? 🤔 Haha🔥 -fun and cheap project to do some personal experiments with, love it!
@@AmplifyDIY That's probably because most string instruments produce sound via something like DML where the entire body of the instrument vibrates. Also, classical tends to benefit most from instrument separation which I think DML does surprisingly well!
Obviously the best was dual Exciters with the sub. I have the duals on 2x4 though and dual subs and for the back channel I put duals on 2 guitars just for fun lol. Took my Towers out lol. These panels sound better and it's like the singers are right in front of you Live. Nice job !!
I've made a few of these, just had to hear it for myself. It really is amazing. Not that the sound is amazing, but that the sound produced by this setup can be reasonably used in an entertainment system setup. The exciters I'm using are being fed by Arylic DIY wifi boards, for perfectly syncronized music throughtout the house. Adequate, and soooo much cheaper than Sonos.......
Like dual exciter with subwoofer. I bet a 2' x 4' panel with the heavy fabric, dual exciter and subwoofer setup would sound even better! Great work! thanks for this!
Btw, the solid mounts have a little more base response, curious how a twin solid mount exciter would stack up to a twin floating exciter. Btw, check out antigravity Bluetooth speaker. It’s basically an exciter but meant to be portable. Slap it on a desk or car window or tool box and turns it into a speaker. My wife and I used on the shower door when we were on vacation lol. If you hang it vertical you need to make sure the both service are incredible clean for it to stick. Actually now that I’m thinking of it, I can use my antigravity speaker to test different material properties before building one.
I am using a set of Dayton DAEX25X4-4 bullfrog on a 24"x30"x1" panel (Cut down from a Foamular 150 8'x4' panel), I widened the cut lines in the panel slightly to prevent vibration from the seams colliding but also made a noticeable difference in the lows. Deems to have a much fuller and more natural sound when compared to 1 or 2 exciter per panel or 4 panels in the method used in the Tech Ingredients video. I use them for music and movies outdoors (when the weather is appropriate). I also did a set of DAEX32EP-4 with a stretchy nylon that cut down on some of the harsh peaks in the high range; I used 3M Super 77 Spray Adhesive around the back edge. Using the wrong adhesive or going heavy with the spray paint melts the foam and creates areas of higher density and ruins the sound. Also, Using a full range amp sounds significantly better even without a sub. I found with 3 different models of amp that the cheap crossover cuts out the lower range even when set to lowest possible setting on the High Pass filter.
The large panels are meant for construction use and have lines scored into the panel. These lines allow the panels to be broken or cut easier during installation on a construction site.
Hey Amplify, I'm researching this project and just now come across your channel. i want you to know, I appreciate the scientific approach you have taken to going through all this work for us DIY-ers to come by and pick up the tips. Thanks!
Definitely the dual exciters. They added a lot more body to the music. I’d say they do need a subwoofer added tho. They just can’t get those wormer or heavier sounds by themselves. I actually have two of the same exact pink foam pieces. I got them for a windows a/c that I no longer need them for. I was going to return them but after seeing this I’m definitely going to keep them and make a set of these and hang them behind my couch for a cheep yet seemingly effective surround sound.
I am just learning about these fantastic speakers, I first came across them from a video “SHOULD SPEAKERS THIS GOOD BE LEGAL?” By tech ingredients. They made a fantastic video and I think you should make one more video using some of the things they used. Some differences include using acoustic ceiling tiles to get more of that mid range as well as the foam for a combined balance. They also connect the drivers to the tiles and foam via a small puddle of epoxy on the back of the foam/tile, dried, and then stuck to that. The glassy layer of dried epoxy gives the drivers a much better connection. They also used a rectangle shape to further eliminate any reverberating tones in the boards.
@@harrisondodge6956 I'm thinking about doing some longbois kind of hidden in an accent wall behind the tv in this method. dual driver, home made sub (using a flat pack kit) built into the floating shelf as part of the design.
Excellent video! One variation I've never seen tested is a version with no sides of equal length or parallel to each other to reduce reinforcing harmonics within the panels ... 😉
I have to admit how good these are, especially the curved corner squares with Dual Exciters and Subwoofer. These sounded best to my ears. I am tempted to give this ago now myself.
I'm having tough time picking out a favorite. The duals, despite the comments below, to me sound like the gain is cranked too high or something and we've got some clipping or something going on. The originals still sounded pretty good. Triangles were slightly brighter no doubt because of their smaller surface area. Light and heavy fabric was tough to say. Maybe I just don't have good taste, but I don't think I really liked the edition of the binaural microphone. To me, your lapel mic or whatever mic you used last time had better clarity. Thank you for the video, was highly anticipating it. My second time through trying to decide my favorite
I also thought I heard clipping, but for me, it wasn't just the DIY panels. I heard it on the fancy speakers, too, in the hard rock / metal portion. It might be my audio setup, though. In any case, the clipping I hear is so omnipresent that it feels hard for me to judge the sound.
Amazing! I'd like to think I can tell the difference, but with my eyes closed, all that I could notice a difference on was the subwoofer and the dual exciter.
thanks for the video , I'm totally making these now, they blow those bookshelfs out of the water. Tech ingrediants now uses a acoustic tile (drop ceiling) panels that fills in the middle better and they built a sound booth out of them in combination with the foam ones.. Also glad to see the fabric testing, the wife wont object to another of my ugly projects in the house.
Absolutely amazing amount of work and effort, It's fantastic! The dual exciters through your setup and the countless other variables sounded interesting. I wonder if they could be set up so one exciter is smaller and vibrates only on higher frequencies while the other is bigger and responsible for lower frequencies.
To me, the originals sounded best. I could hear the potential when the subwoofer was added (my second choice), but to me this particular subwoofer sounded a bit muddy with each accompaniment. I would be interested in the originals with a better subwoofer. Kudos for really well done editing. Could showing how you edited this please be your next subject?
Hey Joseph! Thanks for watching and sharing your impressions! The muddy sub is mostly due to the mics I used for the recording. In person, it was pretty clean, if a bit loud. I could have turned it down some, but I like a fatter low end. As for how I edited it: it’s easily the most complex timeline of any of my projects to date. It’s a very very good thing that DaVinci Resolve (the editor I use) allows an unlimited number of video tracks! I basically added all 12 recordings to the project timeline, synced them up perfectly, then added about a bajillion jump cuts between them. Piece of cake! (That took weeks!)
It's not a huge surprise that they did, because if you ever watched the original videos from Tech Ingredients, you know they went through a lot of testing to find optimal materials, shapes, and exciter positioning. They even combined several different panels per stereo channel, to create a particularly flat response curve.
@@brei2670 Which ***SHOULD*** produce the best dynamic range possible, and it did improve things.. I think a combination of exciters, each with a panel it drives, would probably be best. Think of it like a 3-way exciter setup, per channel of sound. It would take a bit of work to find exciters & panels that match up, but should be legit when done.
Great test, very well done with the seamless editing, I personally have a pair of these working at home in the spare room suspended from fishing line with the balsa panels decorated with artwork so that they do not jump out at you as speakers. They just provide a reasonable sound for back ground when working. On your test the dual exciter really stood our as having the best sound to me. I'm off to buy another pair of exciters and retro fit. I also think you have potentially doubled the sales of exciters. Nice job !
The unsanded originals are crispy! I have some 'super bass' exciters I want to play with in my shop. I tried this out probably 2 years ago and yes, they are much louder than 'traditional' drivers.
I've got some opinions about what sounded the best based on what I heard while performing all these tests, but I'm holding off on sharing that until I've heard from lots of you about what you think. Was there a specific design that worked better than others? Was one design better for one type of music than another?
With all of the layers of variables between your speakers and our ears, including the microphone you are using, as well as the quality of the speakers your audience is hearing the sound from, I don't think any of our opinions on the sound comparison between any of the speaker sets is going to be at all objective. Your opinion, being the guy who is there in person, is the only one that matters.
The specific way I set up and did the testing was designed to eliminate many of the variables that you mention: it's not about how "good" any specific setup sounded, but rather how each setup sounded *compared to* the others. That's why I hopped from design to design during each track, so you could hear the subtle differences between them.
@@AmplifyDIY the only part i found hard to deal with that is how the music would play continuously, rather than looped. They all "sound" good when playing, but it's really tough to pick out which one sounds the best since we never really hear the same signal repeated across each of the test subjects. It may seem like a huge bore to us, but I think a couple test samples repeated across all of them and then played one after the other may serve as a better comparison rather than letting a whole song play through and switching variables at different time frames.
@OtherDalfite - yes, I struggled for a long time to try to figure out the best way to present the testing. I do have full 16 minute recordings of every single speaker setup, and I spliced them up the way I did in this video simply because it was the best way (to my ear) to accentuate the differences in the panels. But I still have the full recordings....
@@AmplifyDIY hey, I'm not saying you have to, but if you're willing to put the time in and cut some important sections you think of together and play them one after the other and maybe do some analysis on them, I'd really appreciate it! Regardless of your choice, the information you gave here is awesome.
I really liked the editing. It made it much easier to compare them all together. I think I liked the dual exciters with subwoofer setup. It sounded “live” to me.
@@AmplifyDIY I concur with this. The dual with the sub to my ear over both headphones and my Yamaha HS8 sounded the most "balanced", most of the other configs seemed a little "tingy" and while loud def swung more toward the high freq IMO.
Conversely, I found the dual exciters with subwoofer setup to be very odd. With a very odd time delay/echo with an over-strong boomy bass. In fact any combination used with the subwoofer sound way too bass-heavy & boomy to me, except for the light classical section where both the material covered versions with & without the sub sounded great, but you can't really have different speaker setups for different types of music, now can you? Any combination I found the duel exciters to be very odd as mentioned above. I could probably put that down to a phase shift between the two exciters having different acoustic centres & a waterfall effect as the waves from the two different exciters cross paths & their phase differences will either add or subtract from the output depending on frequency & arrival times. It might sound good to some people, but so does singing in an echoey environment like the shower. I would be very interested to hear what larger single exciter panels would sound like, or a multi-panel setup with panels of different sizes, using a decent crossover & correctly phase/time alignment. Perhaps that's more a project for Danny Richie at GR-Research? Thanks very much for all your hard work setting these tests up, that's very much appreciated.🙂
@@Christographer_UK Awesome write up - thank you for taking the time! I think you have a very good ear.. your description of what's going on with dual exciters is on point. :)
3 года назад+1
Wow, absolutely great job. Thank you very much for sharing that hands on science. Just with my computer speaker I could tell the differences. Quickly I would go with this ranking from worst to best: 6- Triangular (something is lacking, tones not well balanced...) 5- Painted (is it only me or the highs got dimmed?) 4- Square no sanding (highs to predominants...) 3- Heavier fabric (it seems that is lost some highs...) 2- Sanded Square and Original with light fabrics: Probably similar to #1 (hard to hear much difference on my computer speakers...) 1- Original with 2 exciters (seems richer and a little bit louder) I am not commenting about the Fixed exciters setup as I think it would damage these. I am not commenting about the subwoofer addition either cause I think I would need personal adjustment to be harmonized with the whole setup. It seems unbalanced when it was added. I would probably go for 48'' long panels addition instead. Thanks again 🙂
Just learning about this in 2024… I have a 7 speaker KEF surround sound system. But I love this. I’ll now be putting my DIY Skills to the test and creating speaker options for the garden and garage workspace. 👌🏾🙌🏾😁
I'm sure many, including myself appreciate the work you put into this video. Outstanding that you kept the music going between panels, makes all the difference!! Heard in isolation the Klipsch would sound ok for a small box speaker. When you brought the heavy guns in it all started to happen and the Klipsch sounded thin and boxy. Are these panel jobbies the last word? Of course not, but bang for buck they're phenomenal. Much bigger soundstage than the box speakers, and solo instruments really did the biz. Skip the dual exciters and the sub, and any of them sound brilliant. I liked the triangles particularly. Mine are in a mdf frame, four panels each a foot square, so 4.5 feet high and 15 inches wide, each array.The panel edges fixed to the frame with duct tape. Each panel has an exciter which is rigidly fastened to a rigid spine. I did this because I used coroplast and I doubted it will support an exciter long term. I love 'em, though the treble is a little down. I hope to fix this by adding a tweeter and a separate crossover. Don't like crossovers much and I hoped to make these arrays truly full range, but alas not. A separate tweeter might fix things. I tried several amps. My fleawatt tube amp wasn't particularly interested. My various mini Chinese amps did a lot better but currently I'm using my Adcom power amp with separate volume pot. It's around 100 wpc, very beefy, and still performs well despite being nearly 30 years old. It makes these panels fly....
I wonder how these would sound if you had three wired up through a 3 way cross over, size would need to be adjusted for bass, mid and highs I guess. Fun to play with.
The dual exciter setup showed one critical element. The size of the panel requires power to move out you suffer dynamic compression. You need enough power to move the panel size, and two showed a very clear improvement. Because of this, I would test more exciters, 3, 4, etc. and find the point of diminishing returns. It also seemed like the fixed transducer had a distinct change to clarity, but relative to above, it lacked power. A multi-exciter fixed setup may show more significant improvement. Another aspect was rounding the edges seemed to reduce high frequency output. This might have to do with resonance of the material near the tips being higher, but I don't know. However, it also seemed like multiple exciters fixed this too. It seems to be a game of resonance and free gains versus just having the needed power in the first place.
You have gone above and beyond for this video. Sparked something inside me I thought was long dead after decades of turn that down the kids are asleep or the neighbors will complain. I have to try these. Like I’ve read, there is bound to be limitations on the spectrum of sound quality at different levels. If anyone should care I intend to test an shape traced by the back of my acoustic guitar. The two different lobes sizes should augment the audio hopefully for the better. That shape is not by mistake or happenstance. If it works, I’ll follow up with a reply, may take time as only have limited home time. Well done
You've made my day! I love hearing that my videos make a positive impact for people, and I'd love to hear how your panels turn out once you have time to give them a try. Good luck!
Thank you for your efforts in showing the comparisons. The extra effort on your part has opened my eyes to several different options that I had not considered. I think that the fabric, specifically the one that you called "heavy fabric" introduced a bit of the mid into audible response. So too did the mounted, as well as the dual exciters. Now I'm interested in how a mounted dual exciter with "heavy fabric" would sound. I wonder if the combined options would balance out the benefits of the others or if they would all compliment the others and bring even more mid into the audible response. Again, thank you for your additional efforts.
To clarify: they did say these are the best “budget” speakers. Birch wood end grain is __very slightly__ better in terms of sound quality, but foam panel is by far the best without spending $$$$$.
This was a surprisingly awesome video and I thank you for the tremendous amount of time, dedication and effort you put into this. These speakers ARE definitely a great bang for the buck.
Great video. My experience is not so glowing though. I tried it and I would not say IMO the "worlds best" or even great. I watched this video and it seemed to me that 2 exciters sounded better than the 1. Consequently ,I put two of the Dayton Audio exciters in series per board (one at centre, the other, 3:2) and bought the Fosi 50w x 2 amp from Amazon. The foam board was the pink panther brand 2'x2' bought from Home Depot, sanded and rounded at the corners. For music, it is noticeably better but for voice (talk radio, youtube, television), it sounds like the speaker is talking through a funnel or down a long hallway. I fiddled with the treble and bass with some slight improvement but the sound was a bit tinny and always hollow (vs my samsung speaker which provides a richer, fuller sound). I added a powered subwoofer to help with the bass (frankly, foam board 2'x2' sucks for bass). For $2.50 Cdn for each board + $50 for two exciters per speaker... at 50 watts it is good project to do but I would not say they are great speakers. Important point: The sound is also extremely directional. My next project is to see if the same project can be done on a curved substrate (semicircular) to project sound in a greater range of direction.
most definitely the dual exciters with the subwoofer. very wide range and it doesn't have that high twang i kept hearing like in the unsanded panels. Very noticable when it hits a resonant frequency. I'm so glad I found this. I've been wanting to do something for speakers at home that's inexpensive. I wonder what this would sound like in a 5.1 or 7.1 setting? does the size make a huge difference? lower volume output for smaller sizes or loss of lower frequency? wonder what a 1x1 ft. would sound like.
Dual exciter with square (not rounded (as it gave out more bass) ) sanded and light fabric(for color options) with subwoofer this combination will sound the best. Try it.
This is great testing! THanks for doing this! Something I would like to hear and that I don’t think anybody tested is in a surround sound setup. Maybe 5 smaller panel like 12x12 with a sub. Curious to hear how this sounds.
I vote for the Triangles as first, followed up by the originals. The dual exciter ones blurred the imaging to my ear. I used KZ ZSX with a FIIO BTR5 to listen. I could hear the solidity that people who prefer the dual Exciter set up we're speaking of but to me it wasn't worth the loss in the airiness and imaging to me. That sub left a lot to be desired to my ear. It seemed to be overly resonant, almost a one note wonder.
Thanks for doing this. It is a fantastic resource for anyone considering building a pair of these. I am listening on Sony WH-1000XM2. I am 48 yrs old. My high frequency hearing is not too bad but consistent with age. My thoughts are as follows: 1) The Klipsch speakers on the one hand and the set of all the panel speakers on the other hand have a completely different character of sound. It’s very obvious in the bass frequencies and I think it comes about from the panel resonance of the Klipsch enclosures: they sound like shelf speaker boxes. Unsurprisingly, none of the panels have this characteristic sound. I can pick this out easily without looking 😉 2) By comparison, I would describe the sound of all the panels as “fuller” and “more alive” and certainly “more transparent” (which is a way to describe the absence of any sound that is identifiably coming from the speaker as opposed to from the virtual sound stage). 3) I would pick the panels over the Klipsch speakers. The panels are a more enjoyable listening experience in my subjective opinion. As I’m writing this, whenever there is a disappointing sound, I look up to see the Klipsch boxes - they seem “flat” and a bit “dead” by comparison although they do OK on the strings. 4) The differences between the different panel configurations (excluding the sub/no sub change) are more subtle than the differences between the panels and the Klipsch boxes. 5) The main differences I hear between the different panel configs are (smallish) differences in the frequency response. Corners seem sharper (more treble). I would use rounded corners. 6) I think there may be some sibilance from the fabric at 24:38 - 24:39. Vocals sound bad around this point. I would avoid fabric. 7) The frequency response of the dual exciters seems like it may be more even perhaps. I would probably go with multiple exciters. 8) Overall the biggest problem with the panels in terms of subjective enjoyment is obviously the lack of bass. The panels with the subs very obviously had more extended lower frequency response (better) but the sub integration was very poor so the overall effect of the panels with the subs wasn’t a great listening experience. The silicone ears of the mics may also have contributed to the inaccuracy and general flabbiness of the bass perhaps. 9) The next biggest problem with the panels, at least as heard over my headphones, was the lack of accuracy in space of the sound stage: the music fills the stage but is somewhat delocalised; the instruments don’t seem to have a precise location. I think the vertical diamond configuration may be fractionally better in this regard but there was no point at which it was possible to discern excellence from the panels here. This isn’t too surprising as the panels are quite wide and the way to get a good sound stage is to have the sound emitted from a thin vertical line on each side. This is why ribbon tweeters are vertical for example. 10) I think the panels are a bit lacking in clarity and high frequency response. This is described as “air”. Again, this isn’t too surprising given that there is nothing like a tweeter or super tweeter involved. I have done an alternative DIY attempt (in the same spirit of cheap but good) at audiophile grade floor standing speakers which I think is competitive in terms of cost and ease of construction. My design is a bit more expensive and a bit more work but includes a very accurate sub which is vertically in line with the midrange and tweeters and so is easy to integrate (phase is naturally correct). Also, all drivers are inline so the sound stage is precise and the line array gives the sound stage a large scale vertically. The clarity is captivating - multiple drivers don’t need to be overworked so they stay in the linear range. My design ended up as a more traditional floor standing shape which may be a disadvantage if you are considering the panels so they can be hidden. The design evolved considerably so it’s better to take a look at the end result before restarting at the beginning of the thread to understand the construction details. Anyway, here it is as an alternative for your consideration: www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/1-day-ghetto-line-array-build-200.359672/post-7013528 Feel free to comment/ask questions on my thread on diyaudio if necessary.
What an incredible write up and analysis Henry - thank you! I will go check out your thread and your project as well. Thanks for watching and for all the feedback!
Great video and presentation! Will definitely be trying this as a project over the holidays with my kids. Not sure, but I think you might have had the sub turned up too high, which will really distort the sound. You would also benefit from an external Dac to get crisper sound. But these are trivial matters that are easily resolved. Congrats. Look forward to seeing more stuff in the future (you might also consider some Audiophile music for your presentations. Can’t go wrong with Ella)
Wow. great editing. Going to the reference and using different music genres was top notch! I dont know what sounded the best to me so im hoping to see more videos on the topic. even if its just a lazy one discussing viewr comments or such. :) thanks
Thanks Waka! I don't have specific follow-ups planned yet, but do have a bunch of ideas for more interesting testing that I could do... Thanks for watching!
Based on what I heard with my high end headphones I think I’m going to give a build a try with dual exciters, unsanded, uncut panels with my particular amp and eq setup and see how it sounds and go from there.
I listened using Grado SR60 headphones. I kept my eyes closed until I heard what I liked. I think the dual exciter with the sub sounded best, but I really liked how the heavy cloth dialed back the high end. I'd like to see these as ceiling tiles used as surround sound speakers in a home theater setup. Great job!
Thanks for sharing! In my area, basic PC speakers can be found at thift stores every day for under $5. A good test might be to adapt a set for this type of project and see how they compare to the original "small plastic box".
Favorite is dual exciter with sub. The coverings didn’t seem to change it to much except the heavy to me had slight more base and slightly more muffled high end but barely.
Clearly the dual exiters sounded “best”, with the triangle dual exiters in the 2nd place. But for me there is way too much mid-upper range. I would tone down those a bit with eq
That is exactly what I do with my daex25x4-4 DML's - I eq the high frequencies down a good deal, also a sub woofer tuned to the speakers is a must, takes DML's to a new level.
There's one combination that has me wondering if it would sound the best. Dual exciters, unsanded, square with a sub woofer. Unsanded, square sound much wider on the mids and highs. If you consider the panels as only mids and highs and allow the sub to handle most of the bass I think you'd nail it.
Any of the panels with the sub gave the best results according to my Sennheisers. I think the dual exciters really didn't make so much difference. Thank you so much for doing this.
Thanks for being a REALLY good sport and trying all these different variations! I did as you recommended and listened with my Sennheiser headphones. Sadly, the moment you switched from the Klipsch speakers to the foams, I exclaimed without really thinking, "Ugh! Tinny and bright!" No variation really did anything to fix that. While I was initially excited, I don't think I'll be making these. Even so, thanks again for all the hard work testing the various ideas.
Dual exciters definitely sounded better to me. I'd love to see/hear the dual exciters set-up combined with each of the cloth covered setups, and then each of these paired with, and without, a 12" quality subwoofer. I couldn't tell if shape and sanding made that much of a difference. If it doesn't hurt the sound that much I definitely have a special shape in mind 🙂 Each of the two setups
Definitely The duel exciters. I even like the light fabric tone as wel. That will be my combination. I appreciate this video so much, and great editing btw. One of the best uses for social media I've seen in a decade 👍👍.
Commented on first vid. As well. Those exciters from what I’ve found were really first used behind the drywall or plaster in houses thus making the whole wall a speaker. I like the string mount for total isolation of the speaker onto anything else that would also reverberate ie shelves floor etc etc etc but yeah they sound good. Think I might make a speaker for the garage with the exciter I have. Good job though
I found it depended greatly on what type of music was being played. I liked the panels on classical type music, very airy and open. To me the sub was overpowering. I thought the light fabric faired well, and the triangle also. Heavier fabric gave more bass, and dual exciters gave more reverb. I have a set of speakers that play well-recorded music very well, but not older poor recordings, or newer highly compressed music. This test reminded me a lot of that experience. I listened to this on BT headphones which are probably not super great.
I would love to see this test again with some bass traps in the room. That subwoofer level was WAY too high as well. The panels themselves sound good, the dual exciters sounded the best by far with the uncovered originals coming in second to my ears.
Thanks for all your work putting that together. You did a great job. What struck me was how both unsanded and primer painted panels sounded worse. Amazing. I would have thought that painting, especially in primer would have minimal impact, but I can hear the difference over RUclips. Incredible. At first, I didn't like the cloth covered panels, but after I realized that they decrease the sound level a bit, the sound is less harsh and both the female and male voices sounded better in my ears. The heavy fabric did seem to muddy up other sounds though.
I only have one question ¿Is it posible to make a 7.1 setup with these? That would be interesting to watch and test.. Keep it up the excellent content!!!
Of course it’s possible. You just need a 7.1 decoder running to eight channels of amplifier running to seven panels, and whatever you want to use for a subwoofer. These are just speakers. You could make a 7.1 system or a 5.1 or a mono single panel. They’re just speakers.
The subwoofer integration would have benefitted from a more sophisticated crossover. With a little more attention to placement, crossover frequency and level, I’m sure you could have avoided the mud in the low mids- while keeping the extra low-end extension.
Great video, The dual exciters with sub blew me away. The directional sound from the Klipsch sounded terrible compared to all the panels which were very open and natural sounding. I have both sets of exciters ready to go for my own build, thanks for push.
That, to me, is the most noticeable difference between the panels and any traditional (very directional) speaker setup. These panels just completely fill the room with sound. Acoustic instruments sound unbelievable on them. Thanks for watching!
@@AmplifyDIY This is definitely on my to-do list. Listened to this with a 15 year old (not too expensive) Sennheiser, and the dual exciter is nearly eye-watering, so clear.. Sub sounded a bit loud on all occasions, but that could be my sound settings. Maybe I will try a 5 driver setup to see if that cranks the bass. Theoretically it should also reduce resonances in the panel.
I have 2 really good combinations. 1. Heavy Fabric, Dual exciter ridgid mounted on opposing exciters. I.e. one the center exciter, the other one is mounted to the offset exciter. 2. Symphony of multiple mixes of them all. They all seem to have a flat sounding tone, but they're all different, so a good combination would be very full. That could create an amazing experience in a movie theater setup.
Excellent video!! I understand why the panels work. Defiantly dual exciters. Why, the quick answer is because you have a quicker response across the whole panel with less absorption/bending of the panel to give a quicker cleaner louder sound. Which in turn gives a larger frequency listening range. The next big thing I would like to know is the frequency response rage those panels have? Lowest frequency to highest frequency. I would suspect something around the 20KHz for the high end response. Then at that point I would purchase a subwoofer that can "come up to" the lower end of the panel frequency or by a mid range speaker to cover the "audio whole" created between the panel and subwoofer frequency responses. You can hear the whole the dual exciters/subwoofer produce in the music you have chosen (excellent range of music). Once again really great video!! thanks!!
Thanks, Daryl! I believe that Dayton publishes frequency responses of each of their exciters on their website. Here is the data for the specific exciters I used: www.daytonaudio.com/images/resources/295-230--dayton-audio-daex32ep-4-specifications.pdf Thanks for watching!
@@AmplifyDIY I noticed that the frequency response curves were done with 1/2" foam board as opposed to the 1" typically used for these speakers. How much difference in frequency response would you think that the thickness of the foam board makes? --From the Dayton tech data: "1/3rd octave smoothing - measurement taken with transducer adhered off-center on a 12" x 12" x ½" foam core board in an infinite baffle setup."
I love this idea and they sound great, couldn't tell the difference between solid mount and floating which made me think, what if you could make these "float" inside a box, this would improve base by inadvertently making itself a passive speaker while still being active, you could use fishing wire as you have here and have a gap around the box opening (speaker to box wall) of around 1 to 2 mm, you could also do this and cover the entire thing in fabric so you wouldn't see the panel but it could make for a great base box seat speaker :)
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Here are my thoughts about each panel design: amplifydiy.com/shared/FlatPanelSpeakerTestingResults.html
What did you think of them?
I know you can't please them all, lol, but after hearing the dual exciters, I wanted to hear them fixed mount. Excellent work!
Thanks for posting this. It was frustrating taking into account my speakers/headphones and the digitized path that sound used to get to me. Really hard to tell what improvements were real or just artifacts of the whole process.
Fully agree with your conclusion.
Interesting to read your thoughts on the various speakers/set ups.
And, while I can not argue against your preferences, I do think we need to acknowledge that since none of us viewers were able to actually hear them, all of our preferences are secondhand.
In my original comment, I did express a different preference and while I still think that, it is because I based my preferences on what I could hear at home.
The only "real" conclusion I am willing to make from this video is this:
These flat panel speakers are definitely worth my time to build and hear for myself in my home. I will also say that when I do build a pair, I will not be going with the triangle shaped panels to start with--even though they were the ones that sounded best to me in this video.
Because I have not *actually heard* them yet, it only makes sense to start with the original square panels and then see if any changes seem needed.
I really do enjoy the videos you have posted about these speakers and I fully agree with your view of this latest video as a comparative tool rather than a definitive ranking of the various designs.
Thank you for sharing this and for your thoughts on the specific designs, well done!
The dual exciters made by far the most difference on these panels. the microphones didn't exactly sound natural but it was pretty darn close. great job by the way I cannot compliment you enough for your dedication for doing this this is an absolutely amazing video and it should be in the top 100 of RUclips if you want my opinion.
I am really impressed by the amount of work you put into this Bravo sir!
I think I'm going to have to order some of these soon as I didn't really realize just how good these actually were at least it makes him great outdoor speakers.
I think with the addition of a super Tweeter it should really make things a lot better and of course addition of a subwoofer as well.
it's amazing that there really wasn't that much actual difference between the fabric in the sanded and the non sanded that I could actually hear between the different musical pieces especially when it came to the classical stuff.
it did seem that the rounded edges took off a little bit of the harshness but again that's just my subjective opinion.
overall grade a effort wonderful presentation!
Dual exciter setup for sure. Sounds amazing and has a richer and fuller sound.
Agreed. They showed to have the most dramatic increase in quality. I think the dynamic range was overall better because you could begin to separate the instruments from each other and the sound opened up a bit compared to the other options.
Im surprised at the popularity of these.
I look at them as a terrible compromise to good sound quality.
Agreed. I closed my eyes after the first cycle through the speakers, then opened them when I heard what sounded the best to me. It was usually those or the addition of the sub. 😁
dual exciter plus subwoofer was clearly head and shoulders above everything else. I'd tune the sub down a bit, for my taste, it was a little over powered, but yeah. dual exciters by a LOOOOOONG shot
Yep. Bit to much bass on the sub for my liking so I'd definitely tune that down a bit, but otherwise great quality. Lots of detail could be heard.
I won't comment on the sound, because I'm not an expert and because it is subjective, but OMG I just HAVE to comment on the editing !
SO MANY switches without missing a beat (much less any clicks & pops)
Unbelievable. Subscribed immediately.
If it was done by telling siri/alexa, PLEASE nobody tell me, let me bask in the glow of artistry with visions of more to come.
AGREED! I also noticed this. The guy did a FANTASTIC job!
Thank you!
totally agree. the editing was perfect
I actually find personal opinions interesting. I could never understand why people argue over subjectivity.
I built a set of these and felt they were in need of DSP. Some instruments sounded better than others. There was a clarity that was amazing, and a good sound stage. Very life like. The timber seemed a bit upper mid heavy, but lacking in the high registers. I was able to play an 80Hz test tone which surprised me.
I agree about how the high quality of this video production.
Award worthy
I was listening with my eyes closed and I kept picking the same two, the dual exciter and the light fabric sets. Your set up and work in doing this is amazing. Thank you so much for taking your time, effort and money to create this content, I think its safe to say that it is greatly appreciated by all.
Thank you, Spicy! I really appreciate hearing what you thought, and am glad you liked the video. I also prefer the dual exciters and light fabric. Thanks for watching!
I’m in agreement on those choices as well! I kind of liked the single exciters with a subwoofer, but it seems like the subwoofer sometimes added too much bass! I’m thinking of trying to build the speakers in the original shape with light fabric AND dual exciters!
I do have a question though, I know you treated so many options, but what about bigger panels? What if you made them 4’ X 4’? Would that have much of an effect negatively or positively?
@@Spetznatz01 Hey Steven - I have not had a chance to test them yet, but I believe that larger panels will do a better job of reproducing lower frequencies. I'd hesitate to call them a replacement for subwoofer, but they should round out the lower end better. If I ever take another swing at testing even more variations / setups, I'll be sure to include some larger panels. Thanks for watching!
@@AmplifyDIY in this video when you were talking about the speakers from the original video did that mean the exciters are placed with the 2/5--3/5 rule on both speakers or 2/5--3/5 on one panel and dead center on the other. I found the dual speaker design the most pleasing but was wondering if you could achieve the same with 2 exciters (1 dead center and the other 2/5--3/5 on the other) rather than 4 exciters with and 1 amplifier rather than 2 as I am on a tight budget.
And thank you very much for all the work you put into this video. Your content is consistently some of the most helpful and enlightening on the platform.
Totally agree. I wonder what a duel exciter w/ light fabric would sound like? Also I noticed the placement was called out as 2/5 2/5 this time rather than 2/5 3/5. Was that intentional?
Two years later I stumble across this video and I am absolutely stunned. Not only by the dramatic difference in sound quality between the Klipsch and the exciter panels, but by the excellence in your scientific approach to sonically document the difference for your viewers. Thanks so much! After 50 years of speaker building I will be building my first pair of exciter panels, while spending a tiny fraction of what I typically spend on a new project. Amazing.
I watched the original Tech Ingredients video about 2 years ago and was dubious when this video (and your previous one) popped up. I admit that I'm impressed. You gave credit where credit was due and you brought a mountain of value added to the subject. I'm now adding this to my "to do" list.
Thank you, Papa Smurf!
Poor use of grammar! That's not how you use the word dubious... just saying.
@@ricksmediaarchiveyoutube9398 "Fraught with uncertainty or doubt; undecided". Yup. That describes what I initially thought when I started watching his videos. But he came through.
Must be a pretty miserable life you have when the best use of your time is trying to point out perceived grammar mistakes; especially when the intent is crystal clear.
He is right though…
You probably meant curious or doubtful. Dubious are things that are a cause of doubt.
So no need to get that defensive. I too was unsure what you were trying to say and had to read your comment twice.
@@jpw5996 If you're going to attack someone's grammar online, make sure you're correct first. The definition I quoted is the definition I used. I was undecided on his video. I had doubts about his video. Therefore I was dubious about him and his video. Heck, even you said I should have used "doubtful" which is part of the definition of "dubious".
Grammar Nazis are bad enough -- but when the Grammar Nazi is wrong is just over the top.
I liked the dual exciter/ subwoofer combination. It seems to create a fuller sound.
Yeah me too!
@@AmplifyDIY 100% best configuration.
Issue I have is I need to know what you thought, since I only have my headphones to judge the sound. Was it worth buying the extra 2 exciters to flatten the response curve? I would also like to know if wrapping the dual is an issue.
@@boonjabby If you want a fuller more powerful sound then yes. But there are limitations to this style speaker that are inherent with the design and materials, specifically in the high and low ends. But paired with a subwoofer, you can get very satisfying sound from the system. Acoustic instruments sound best and the midrange is actually pretty good.
Curious how movies sound on a pair of these?
For context, I listened with a very good planar magnetic headphone and a dedicated headphone amp. There's a lot of nuances to be heard here. Each panel sounds different. My favorite are the original one and especially the dual driver ones. Both sounded amazing on their own and I think my preferred sound of all the combinations here are the dual driver without subwoofer. The sub was a bit too heavy and slow and definitely not at the quality level of the panel sound.
You really makes me want to experiment myself now, because I wasn't expecting that level of reproduction from that cheap an investment. To hear the Klipsch after the panels was a shock.
You made a great job with this video, and I shall thank you for that.
what he said, though I did not use headphones
Does the dual setup requires two emps? Please?
Just curious, do you not miss the lower end of the EQ?
I think my favorite sound was the heavy fabric followed closely by the dual drivers, I'd like to see heavy fabric with dual drivers, possibly triple drivers 2/5 central and 3/5
@@ALGfunk no, you wire the exciters in series. It will change the impedance. (You add the impedance from each exciter.) But your amp should be able to handle the difference unless you go crazy and wire a bunch of them in series.
The effort in editing. The eye and ear for details was amazing thumbs up for great production
Thank you! Cheers!
I built a pair a couple of weeks ago and this test is really helpful. From what I can discern, the dual exciters give a fuller sound. And I agree with most of the comments that the subwoofer was cranked too high, but that's an easy fix. I'm also hooking up a 21-band eq to reduce the mid to mid highs (which these DMLs seem to be good at producing) and boosting the mid-lows. And lastly, a slight boost to the highest frequency range.
Thanks, AmplifyDIY.
And for those that are laughing at these speakers as if they're crap... If you didn't build these and listen with your own ears, your opinion is not rooted in fact. But thanks for sharing... I guess?
This is THE best comparison video between versions of a theme in speakers. There are horses for courses as each example showed with the differing genres of music presented. But I'm definitely going to have a crack at making a set. Thank you so much for the effort in putting this together.
Cheers
Pete'.
Thank you, Pete!
Unsanded squares sounded crisp and incredibly exacting and accurate.
However dual exciters setup was clearly the most well balanced/pleasing listening experience.
The subwoofer did add a smoothness to the bottom end,but the level was much to high for my taste.
The most stunning revelation was how lifeless and dead the reference speakers sounded against the panels.
I own a set of those bookshelf monitors and they sound very very good,until now…..
Thank you for your thorough and informative analysis.
I have the same feeling, im listening in my studio and Unsaneded square was the best sounding here. And i have the sound calibrated with soundId. I would try the dual exciters on that panel, i believe that will sound really good!
@@Donder1337 I was about to say the same. The highs are def more crisp unsanded, but are missing the mids that make the dual exciter panels sound more full.
Im listening on Klipsch speakers that has been compared to studio monitors by some reviewers. And listening to those Klipsch bookshelf speakers on my Klipsch they sounded very flat and lifeless when compared to all the other variations. And this is after RUclips's horrendous audio compression. I can imagine how much better they must sound irl.
Agreed - too much subwoofer on all tests with the subwoofer.
I am planning a build that uses three exciters per panel with carbon fiber honeycomb panels, tweeter dome cutouts and a mid bass box. I may sandblast the surface. Will build it when I can find a good price on the carbon fiber
Absolutely brilliant video. So much hard work you have put in. What a service you are doing to those many of us thinking of doing this. Thank you.
I really liked the balance from the heavy fabric one. My headphones aren't the absolute best but they are clear enough to tell the difference between ever single one of them. The heavy fabric just has a more comfortable feel to it.
I could hear a difference in each one, with my headphones and my speakers here, as well. Very interesting how these sound! I'm glad I didn't make them all, because my house would have speakers hanging everywhere and I would be fumbling to hook them all up! Haha.
Ah good, I’m not the only one to prefer the heavy fabric… though I do wonder how much of that is to do with the response of the headphones I have (which aren’t great, I don’t think.)
The heavy fabric removes the annoying treble peaks.
I think it's total weight of the panel to some extent. The heavier setups had better low response (especially the dual exciter one) but they seemed to muddy the middle a bit. I wonder what it would sound like with a bunch of weights around the edges, or in a resonance cancelling pattern like tech ingredients used. I think, because the weights have a rigid connection, that they would work to drive bass better (at a cost to total amplification) without muffling other frequencies.
I found the dual exciter with subwoofer sounded best. There was warmth in the tone. The sub sounded a bit heavy-handed and blended the best in the classical track where it helped the cellos come through. However, after RUclips compresses this video and my Bluetooth compresses it again, there's no telling what is getting lost. What an incredible video. You're a legend!
Thank you, Jedi Master!
I agree with you if we are just considering the panels. However, the shop bought speakers were generally better.
bro the effort you went through for this video and the previous one along with your presentation is so dang pro. good job.
Dual exciter setup! And damn! The difference it made was incredible! When you changed from original to dual felt like going from mono to surround!
Awesome job and thanks for putting so much time, energy and effort just to test something like this!
Keep it up!
*Edited so people get what I ment to say. Wrote it in pure joy and rambled on and missed some words 🤣
I think what makes this so good is the fact you can experiment with setups cheaply and get the best setup that suits your preference in sound, I myself am curious about mounting them Horizontally on a ceiling!
Wow, the dual exciter setup is absolutely great!
Maybe you should take that idea and extend it to 5 drivers, 1 per corner and 1 in the middle to reduce resonance in the panels? Probably give a much better bass response too.
That would not be substantially different to just having one exciter in the middle. The resonances are the whole point of the exciters being offset in the first place. The 3/5th (or 2/5th if you will) distances is the Golden Ratio of a square (1/1.618... = 0.618... ~ 3/5th).
Diminishing returns
And
The added weight, and configuration
Would
Induce dampening.
@@amsb4dafunk406 yeah it’s like having more than one subwoofer in an average sized room.
Bad idea to create them symmetricaly. It has to do with how sound travels through the board. If you place exciter in the center - there will be resonant frequencies because the distance between exciter and edges will be equal lenght and at certain frequencies they will interfere. This is why you need to make the speaker rectangle not square and place exciter so distance between exciter and edge is different for all 4 edges. The matematically ideal position of multiple exciters is by using the Fibonachi spiral as template.
@@amsb4dafunk406 Not realy. The original NXT technical documents and patents shows that “moar exciters = moar betterer”.
The thing that has deminishing returns is size of the speakers. Distance between furthest edges of the speaker, to be speciffic.
Larger the speaker - the lower frequencies it can produce. But if tou start to think about making DML speaker for sub-frequencies - the speaker will be so big that it will be more practical to just get a subwoofer.
:D
As I've asked Tech Ingredients... I build recumbent (seated side-by-side) human powered cars. I'm always looking for ways to install amenities like in standard vehicles, yet I'm always looking to cut weight and incorporate into my designs. My brain is frying (a good thing) by thoughts of inserting something like these into my polypropylene structured doors and cabin walls. These are incredible. Oh.... Headphones? Yeah baby!
To my ear the dual exciters with subwoofer sounded the best, and dual exciters setup being a strong follower. All other modifications only worsened the thing to some degree. It was also amazing to see and hear how a tiny modification can change the sound dramatically. Unbelievable.
Thanks for great video and for taking a trouble of making it.
Dual exciters sounded best. I felt like they needed bass, but the sub you had didn’t sound good to me. The heavy fabric also sounded good and i think pairing theses up would be a great idea. I would love to see dual exciters on a round shape. Thanks for an excellent video!
Thanks for sharing your impressions!
I agree. The normal panels have much more treble, but the subwoofer just made it sound like a cheap tv soundbar. Lots of low bass, lots of treble, but a lot less mids. The fabric and dual exciters were definitely the best, and I’d like to see how they would sound paired up.
possibly the crossover frequency was set a bit high on the sub?
@@brianburke808 Yes I think that you are right.
@@brianburke808 That's the problem with these panel speakers. You have to set the sub high-pass to around 150 hz because these speakers have precious little deep bass no matter how large the panels are. If you cross the sub high and place it in between the speakers, you should be able to get a good blend.
I'd love to hear dual exciters with heavy and light fabric.
Or, in my opinion Heavy fabric middle and Light fabric offset per channel may be the best option. Also some size variations would be interesting and possibly circle with middle mount for lows because i think that may help
Either way, fabric does add something unexplainable that makes them better than the rest.
this is exactly what I was thinking, the fabric is taking some sharpness out of it i think, and Im surprised that the dual exciters worked out. also interesting that i think the fixed mount had a bit more natural low to it, but being mounted to those tripods vs a wall would be interesting too
I fully agree on the fabric, it's weird right?
Wow! Thanks lots. So thorough!
I have been dancing the idea around in my head for well over a year now, since I saw that original video on how to use the actuators. I have lots of decor ideas to blend the speakers seamlessly, but they all depend upon so many variables I didn't have answers to that my plans usually end with me chasing my tail, metaphorically, not being able to pin any sure starting points down without lots of false starts.
Tada! You answered nearly everything I wondered, so I can mix and match with reasonable knowledge to start from. Thank you so much!
I know you did the triangles, and that was appreciated (and an interesting sound) but I believe the /original/ idea was to have a rectangular shape in order to produce additional wavelengths than even a square with an offset exciter could do.
Based on this video, I'll be making rectangular speakers with dual exciters, covered with light fabric and a subwoofer. I probably won't bother doing much sanding as I didn't notice much of a difference.
Thank you for doing all the work to make this video! Super helpful!
👍Thanks a lot for all youre's tests... Its really appreciate to discover all kind of possible way !
What an amazing effort to answer community questions! Thanks for the work and the excellent editing.
My favorite was the dual with sub support, but for my personal taste the sub could be turned down a decent bit to make it just a support speaker. Amazing video, I can see lots of work was put in, not just in the setup of all the speakers, but the immaculate mixing of sound during the speaker swaps. I may have to talk my wife into letting me set up a set like this :D
I agree with your point about the sub. It seemed too strong or a bit muddy.
I agree 100%
Dual with only a touch of sub
I was monitoring with a paior of Sennheiser HD650 headphones, and thought while the sub added a big roundness, it was too heavy.
First off, Let me Thank You for an amazing video. Your dedication and attention to detail on editing really created some of the best content I've ever enjoyed on RUclips. Second, I took a page from your playbook, and used 3 different high quality headphones and then finally, through my speaker array to listen to your results. I must say, ALL of your home made speakers sounded amazing, no matter what I used to listen. Personal preference?
The duals with the subwoofer. Hands Down. The rich, full sound won me over...
I am a huge fan of Klipsch Speakers, but I found them to sound rather dull in comparison. (that says a lot!) Your attention to detail when editing was most impressive though. Seamless.
I subbed, liked, and am going to try to locate 4 identical exciters now, and make my own set to replace this stack of various speakers in my hobby room. (keeping my 300 watt sub though!) Again, THANK YOU for your hard work and attention to details!
You are too kind! Thank you very much for the feedback, and I hope you enjoy your panels!
Did you make your dyi speakers yet? If so, how did they come out?
@@kare9875 I have not. Work has been really busy. (I know, lousy excuse...) trust me. these are on my to-do list!
I don't understand why, but the dual exciters seemed more "solid" both in sound and imaging, while not giving up the "airiness" of the original design. The subwoofer with those (if the sub was turned down some, maybe a lower rolloff point set too) would be a pretty amazing set!
Most of the others sounded similar to me, with the triangles sounding as I expected they would (a hair thinner) but having a nice "lift" in the physical soundstage. I thought the biggest disappointment were the Fixed Mount panels... to my ears they had a harsh edge compared to the other panels.
Absolutely fascinating! I want to see what happens if you size up the panels, and if there's a point of diminishing returns on size increase, or if you could hang 50 ft x 50 ft panels from a crane and have it sound better than whatever the previous step down would be... lol
Totally agree. How great was this guys test!!
I too am curious about 50x50ft 😂 -or other large sizes.. and if 2 exciters was good... More? 🤔 Haha🔥 -fun and cheap project to do some personal experiments with, love it!
I think it's because the boards are too heavy for one exciter to move the board adequately over large distances.
I think the length plays a role in frequencies they are able to produce. Longer panels should give a richer sound i reckon.
I'm amazed by how differently the music types influenced the different renditions.
Thanks for the thorough demonstration.
I've never heard classical / acoustic instruments represented better than on these panels. It *really* sounds like a live performance.
@@AmplifyDIY That's probably because most string instruments produce sound via something like DML where the entire body of the instrument vibrates. Also, classical tends to benefit most from instrument separation which I think DML does surprisingly well!
Obviously the best was dual Exciters with the sub. I have the duals on 2x4 though and dual subs and for the back channel I put duals on 2 guitars just for fun lol. Took my Towers out lol. These panels sound better and it's like the singers are right in front of you Live. Nice job !!
I thought without the sub TBH - although I think tuning that sub and levelling it out might improve that.
What do you mean duals on 2 x 4?
@@JohnJeppson I think 2 x 4 is a wooden plank measurement/type. "two by four". But I'm not sure that's what they are reffering to ofc ^^
Same opinion
@@EmilParkour yeah usually it means 2" x4"
Here maybe he means 2' x 4'
So a large rectangle rather than a square?
Who knows.
Digging the "Chopped" shirt...representing MCM!!
And a Vice Grip Garage hat also. Great taste in RUclips car channels!
haha! I was gonna say the exact same thing. 😊
Yup, came here to say the same.
I've made a few of these, just had to hear it for myself. It really is amazing. Not that the sound is amazing, but that the sound produced by this setup can be reasonably used in an entertainment system setup. The exciters I'm using are being fed by Arylic DIY wifi boards, for perfectly syncronized music throughtout the house. Adequate, and soooo much cheaper than Sonos.......
Like dual exciter with subwoofer. I bet a 2' x 4' panel with the heavy fabric, dual exciter and subwoofer setup would sound even better! Great work! thanks for this!
DUDE I don't want to even guess how many hours you put into this video... Great Job Bro!!!! (Dual exciter no question)
Hey, thanks!
Btw, the solid mounts have a little more base response, curious how a twin solid mount exciter would stack up to a twin floating exciter. Btw, check out antigravity Bluetooth speaker. It’s basically an exciter but meant to be portable. Slap it on a desk or car window or tool box and turns it into a speaker. My wife and I used on the shower door when we were on vacation lol. If you hang it vertical you need to make sure the both service are incredible clean for it to stick. Actually now that I’m thinking of it, I can use my antigravity speaker to test different material properties before building one.
Imo the dual exciter sounds most pleasing to my ears. I was stunned how much difference there was between sanded and unsanded though.
I am using a set of Dayton DAEX25X4-4 bullfrog on a 24"x30"x1" panel (Cut down from a Foamular 150 8'x4' panel), I widened the cut lines in the panel slightly to prevent vibration from the seams colliding but also made a noticeable difference in the lows. Deems to have a much fuller and more natural sound when compared to 1 or 2 exciter per panel or 4 panels in the method used in the Tech Ingredients video. I use them for music and movies outdoors (when the weather is appropriate).
I also did a set of DAEX32EP-4 with a stretchy nylon that cut down on some of the harsh peaks in the high range; I used 3M Super 77 Spray Adhesive around the back edge. Using the wrong adhesive or going heavy with the spray paint melts the foam and creates areas of higher density and ruins the sound.
Also, Using a full range amp sounds significantly better even without a sub. I found with 3 different models of amp that the cheap crossover cuts out the lower range even when set to lowest possible setting on the High Pass filter.
What do you mean by widened the cut lines?
The large panels are meant for construction use and have lines scored into the panel. These lines allow the panels to be broken or cut easier during installation on a construction site.
@@nerdingtech8111 thank you
@Netwrok, would you please tell us where you placed the DAEX25X4-4 bullfrog on the panel? Thanks!
Hey Amplify, I'm researching this project and just now come across your channel. i want you to know, I appreciate the scientific approach you have taken to going through all this work for us DIY-ers to come by and pick up the tips. Thanks!
Its been a long time since I’ve seen such a professional video hats off to you my guy
Definitely the dual exciters. They added a lot more body to the music. I’d say they do need a subwoofer added tho. They just can’t get those wormer or heavier sounds by themselves. I actually have two of the same exact pink foam pieces. I got them for a windows a/c that I no longer need them for. I was going to return them but after seeing this I’m definitely going to keep them and make a set of these and hang them behind my couch for a cheep yet seemingly effective surround sound.
I am just learning about these fantastic speakers, I first came across them from a video “SHOULD SPEAKERS THIS GOOD BE LEGAL?” By tech ingredients. They made a fantastic video and I think you should make one more video using some of the things they used. Some differences include using acoustic ceiling tiles to get more of that mid range as well as the foam for a combined balance. They also connect the drivers to the tiles and foam via a small puddle of epoxy on the back of the foam/tile, dried, and then stuck to that. The glassy layer of dried epoxy gives the drivers a much better connection. They also used a rectangle shape to further eliminate any reverberating tones in the boards.
If I was to try to build these, I'd go dual exciters, unsanded squares, with light fabric. Seems like the best compromise between looks and sound.
Beat me to it obviously.
And a subwoofer.
@@harrisondodge6956 I'm thinking about doing some longbois kind of hidden in an accent wall behind the tv in this method. dual driver, home made sub (using a flat pack kit) built into the floating shelf as part of the design.
Excellent video!
One variation I've never seen tested is a version with no sides of equal length or parallel to each other to reduce reinforcing harmonics within the panels ... 😉
I really was impressed by the fixed mount . Roll off to a good subwoofer at about 200 hz and you have a really nice set of speakers
I have to admit how good these are, especially the curved corner squares with Dual Exciters and Subwoofer. These sounded best to my ears. I am tempted to give this ago now myself.
I'm having tough time picking out a favorite. The duals, despite the comments below, to me sound like the gain is cranked too high or something and we've got some clipping or something going on. The originals still sounded pretty good. Triangles were slightly brighter no doubt because of their smaller surface area. Light and heavy fabric was tough to say.
Maybe I just don't have good taste, but I don't think I really liked the edition of the binaural microphone. To me, your lapel mic or whatever mic you used last time had better clarity. Thank you for the video, was highly anticipating it. My second time through trying to decide my favorite
yeah, the lapel mic is the way to go, but love the binaural for the music sampling
Interferometry?
I also thought I heard clipping, but for me, it wasn't just the DIY panels. I heard it on the fancy speakers, too, in the hard rock / metal portion. It might be my audio setup, though. In any case, the clipping I hear is so omnipresent that it feels hard for me to judge the sound.
Amazing! I'd like to think I can tell the difference, but with my eyes closed, all that I could notice a difference on was the subwoofer and the dual exciter.
thanks for the video , I'm totally making these now, they blow those bookshelfs out of the water. Tech ingrediants now uses a acoustic tile (drop ceiling) panels that fills in the middle better and they built a sound booth out of them in combination with the foam ones.. Also glad to see the fabric testing, the wife wont object to another of my ugly projects in the house.
Greetings from Slovakia. Can't believe those sound this good. For me light fabric with maybe dual exciters and sub for sure. Thanks for this test.
Absolutely amazing amount of work and effort, It's fantastic! The dual exciters through your setup and the countless other variables sounded interesting. I wonder if they could be set up so one exciter is smaller and vibrates only on higher frequencies while the other is bigger and responsible for lower frequencies.
Like a woofer and tweeter? I would want to try a large and small panel separately to emulate that.
To me, the originals sounded best. I could hear the potential when the subwoofer was added (my second choice), but to me this particular subwoofer sounded a bit muddy with each accompaniment. I would be interested in the originals with a better subwoofer. Kudos for really well done editing. Could showing how you edited this please be your next subject?
Hey Joseph! Thanks for watching and sharing your impressions! The muddy sub is mostly due to the mics I used for the recording. In person, it was pretty clean, if a bit loud. I could have turned it down some, but I like a fatter low end.
As for how I edited it: it’s easily the most complex timeline of any of my projects to date. It’s a very very good thing that DaVinci Resolve (the editor I use) allows an unlimited number of video tracks! I basically added all 12 recordings to the project timeline, synced them up perfectly, then added about a bajillion jump cuts between them. Piece of cake! (That took weeks!)
Dude how can u judge over a lavalier mic xD 😅🤦♂️
It's not a huge surprise that they did, because if you ever watched the original videos from Tech Ingredients, you know they went through a lot of testing to find optimal materials, shapes, and exciter positioning. They even combined several different panels per stereo channel, to create a particularly flat response curve.
@@boimesa8190 he wasn't using a lav for the testing part...
@@brei2670 Which ***SHOULD*** produce the best dynamic range possible, and it did improve things.. I think a combination of exciters, each with a panel it drives, would probably be best. Think of it like a 3-way exciter setup, per channel of sound. It would take a bit of work to find exciters & panels that match up, but should be legit when done.
Great test, very well done with the seamless editing, I personally have a pair of these working at home in the spare room suspended from fishing line with the balsa panels decorated with artwork so that they do not jump out at you as speakers. They just provide a reasonable sound for back ground when working. On your test the dual exciter really stood our as having the best sound to me. I'm off to buy another pair of exciters and retro fit. I also think you have potentially doubled the sales of exciters. Nice job !
Thanks for your work.
I was amazed at how muddy the Klipsch speakers sounded in comparison to any of the panel speakers.
Thanks for watching!
I have a late 80s, early 90s Sony FH-150-R audio system with flat panel speakers model APM-177M, and I love their sound
The unsanded originals are crispy! I have some 'super bass' exciters I want to play with in my shop. I tried this out probably 2 years ago and yes, they are much louder than 'traditional' drivers.
I've got some opinions about what sounded the best based on what I heard while performing all these tests, but I'm holding off on sharing that until I've heard from lots of you about what you think. Was there a specific design that worked better than others? Was one design better for one type of music than another?
With all of the layers of variables between your speakers and our ears, including the microphone you are using, as well as the quality of the speakers your audience is hearing the sound from, I don't think any of our opinions on the sound comparison between any of the speaker sets is going to be at all objective. Your opinion, being the guy who is there in person, is the only one that matters.
The specific way I set up and did the testing was designed to eliminate many of the variables that you mention: it's not about how "good" any specific setup sounded, but rather how each setup sounded *compared to* the others. That's why I hopped from design to design during each track, so you could hear the subtle differences between them.
@@AmplifyDIY the only part i found hard to deal with that is how the music would play continuously, rather than looped. They all "sound" good when playing, but it's really tough to pick out which one sounds the best since we never really hear the same signal repeated across each of the test subjects.
It may seem like a huge bore to us, but I think a couple test samples repeated across all of them and then played one after the other may serve as a better comparison rather than letting a whole song play through and switching variables at different time frames.
@OtherDalfite - yes, I struggled for a long time to try to figure out the best way to present the testing. I do have full 16 minute recordings of every single speaker setup, and I spliced them up the way I did in this video simply because it was the best way (to my ear) to accentuate the differences in the panels.
But I still have the full recordings....
@@AmplifyDIY hey, I'm not saying you have to, but if you're willing to put the time in and cut some important sections you think of together and play them one after the other and maybe do some analysis on them, I'd really appreciate it! Regardless of your choice, the information you gave here is awesome.
I really liked the editing. It made it much easier to compare them all together. I think I liked the dual exciters with subwoofer setup. It sounded “live” to me.
Great feedback. Thank you! I'll be sharing my thoughts in a few days.
@@AmplifyDIY I concur with this. The dual with the sub to my ear over both headphones and my Yamaha HS8 sounded the most "balanced", most of the other configs seemed a little "tingy" and while loud def swung more toward the high freq IMO.
Conversely, I found the dual exciters with subwoofer setup to be very odd. With a very odd time delay/echo with an over-strong boomy bass. In fact any combination used with the subwoofer sound way too bass-heavy & boomy to me, except for the light classical section where both the material covered versions with & without the sub sounded great, but you can't really have different speaker setups for different types of music, now can you? Any combination I found the duel exciters to be very odd as mentioned above. I could probably put that down to a phase shift between the two exciters having different acoustic centres & a waterfall effect as the waves from the two different exciters cross paths & their phase differences will either add or subtract from the output depending on frequency & arrival times. It might sound good to some people, but so does singing in an echoey environment like the shower. I would be very interested to hear what larger single exciter panels would sound like, or a multi-panel setup with panels of different sizes, using a decent crossover & correctly phase/time alignment. Perhaps that's more a project for Danny Richie at GR-Research? Thanks very much for all your hard work setting these tests up, that's very much appreciated.🙂
@@Christographer_UK Awesome write up - thank you for taking the time! I think you have a very good ear.. your description of what's going on with dual exciters is on point. :)
Wow, absolutely great job.
Thank you very much for sharing that hands on science. Just with my computer speaker I could tell the differences. Quickly I would go with this ranking from worst to best:
6- Triangular (something is lacking, tones not well balanced...)
5- Painted (is it only me or the highs got dimmed?)
4- Square no sanding (highs to predominants...)
3- Heavier fabric (it seems that is lost some highs...)
2- Sanded Square and Original with light fabrics: Probably similar to #1 (hard to hear much difference on my computer speakers...)
1- Original with 2 exciters (seems richer and a little bit louder)
I am not commenting about the Fixed exciters setup as I think it would damage these.
I am not commenting about the subwoofer addition either cause I think I would need personal adjustment to be harmonized with the whole setup. It seems unbalanced when it was added.
I would probably go for 48'' long panels addition instead.
Thanks again 🙂
Just learning about this in 2024… I have a 7 speaker KEF surround sound system. But I love this. I’ll now be putting my DIY Skills to the test and creating speaker options for the garden and garage workspace. 👌🏾🙌🏾😁
I'm sure many, including myself appreciate the work you put into this video. Outstanding that you kept the music going between panels, makes all the difference!! Heard in isolation the Klipsch would sound ok for a small box speaker. When you brought the heavy guns in it all started to happen and the Klipsch sounded thin and boxy.
Are these panel jobbies the last word? Of course not, but bang for buck they're phenomenal. Much bigger soundstage than the box speakers, and solo instruments really did the biz. Skip the dual exciters and the sub, and any of them sound brilliant. I liked the triangles particularly.
Mine are in a mdf frame, four panels each a foot square, so 4.5 feet high and 15 inches wide, each array.The panel edges fixed to the frame with duct tape. Each panel has an exciter which is rigidly fastened to a rigid spine. I did this because I used coroplast and I doubted it will support an exciter long term. I love 'em, though the treble is a little down. I hope to fix this by adding a tweeter and a separate crossover. Don't like crossovers much and I hoped to make these arrays truly full range, but alas not. A separate tweeter might fix things.
I tried several amps. My fleawatt tube amp wasn't particularly interested. My various mini Chinese amps did a lot better but currently I'm using my Adcom power amp with separate volume pot. It's around 100 wpc, very beefy, and still performs well despite being nearly 30 years old. It makes these panels fly....
I wonder how these would sound if you had three wired up through a 3 way cross over, size would need to be adjusted for bass, mid and highs I guess. Fun to play with.
Don't think the exciters could give the panels enough energy to move enough air to act as a decent subwoofer no matter how large you made them.
The dual exciter setup showed one critical element. The size of the panel requires power to move out you suffer dynamic compression. You need enough power to move the panel size, and two showed a very clear improvement. Because of this, I would test more exciters, 3, 4, etc. and find the point of diminishing returns.
It also seemed like the fixed transducer had a distinct change to clarity, but relative to above, it lacked power. A multi-exciter fixed setup may show more significant improvement.
Another aspect was rounding the edges seemed to reduce high frequency output. This might have to do with resonance of the material near the tips being higher, but I don't know. However, it also seemed like multiple exciters fixed this too. It seems to be a game of resonance and free gains versus just having the needed power in the first place.
You have gone above and beyond for this video. Sparked something inside me I thought was long dead after decades of turn that down the kids are asleep or the neighbors will complain. I have to try these. Like I’ve read, there is bound to be limitations on the spectrum of sound quality at different levels. If anyone should care I intend to test an shape traced by the back of my acoustic guitar. The two different lobes sizes should augment the audio hopefully for the better. That shape is not by mistake or happenstance. If it works, I’ll follow up with a reply, may take time as only have limited home time. Well done
You've made my day! I love hearing that my videos make a positive impact for people, and I'd love to hear how your panels turn out once you have time to give them a try. Good luck!
Thank you for your efforts in showing the comparisons. The extra effort on your part has opened my eyes to several different options that I had not considered. I think that the fabric, specifically the one that you called "heavy fabric" introduced a bit of the mid into audible response. So too did the mounted, as well as the dual exciters. Now I'm interested in how a mounted dual exciter with "heavy fabric" would sound. I wonder if the combined options would balance out the benefits of the others or if they would all compliment the others and bring even more mid into the audible response. Again, thank you for your additional efforts.
To clarify: they did say these are the best “budget” speakers. Birch wood end grain is __very slightly__ better in terms of sound quality, but foam panel is by far the best without spending $$$$$.
I found the Dual exiters with the subwoofer the best. Very balanced and a good amount of bass.
Agreed!
This was a surprisingly awesome video and I thank you for the tremendous amount of time, dedication and effort you put into this. These speakers ARE definitely a great bang for the buck.
Great video. My experience is not so glowing though. I tried it and I would not say IMO the "worlds best" or even great. I watched this video and it seemed to me that 2 exciters sounded better than the 1. Consequently ,I put two of the Dayton Audio exciters in series per board (one at centre, the other, 3:2) and bought the Fosi 50w x 2 amp from Amazon. The foam board was the pink panther brand 2'x2' bought from Home Depot, sanded and rounded at the corners. For music, it is noticeably better but for voice (talk radio, youtube, television), it sounds like the speaker is talking through a funnel or down a long hallway. I fiddled with the treble and bass with some slight improvement but the sound was a bit tinny and always hollow (vs my samsung speaker which provides a richer, fuller sound). I added a powered subwoofer to help with the bass (frankly, foam board 2'x2' sucks for bass). For $2.50 Cdn for each board + $50 for two exciters per speaker... at 50 watts it is good project to do but I would not say they are great speakers.
Important point: The sound is also extremely directional. My next project is to see if the same project can be done on a curved substrate (semicircular) to project sound in a greater range of direction.
most definitely the dual exciters with the subwoofer. very wide range and it doesn't have that high twang i kept hearing like in the unsanded panels. Very noticable when it hits a resonant frequency. I'm so glad I found this. I've been wanting to do something for speakers at home that's inexpensive. I wonder what this would sound like in a 5.1 or 7.1 setting? does the size make a huge difference? lower volume output for smaller sizes or loss of lower frequency? wonder what a 1x1 ft. would sound like.
Dual exciter with square (not rounded (as it gave out more bass) ) sanded and light fabric(for color options) with subwoofer this combination will sound the best. Try it.
This is great testing! THanks for doing this! Something I would like to hear and that I don’t think anybody tested is in a surround sound setup. Maybe 5 smaller panel like 12x12 with a sub. Curious to hear how this sounds.
I vote for the Triangles as first, followed up by the originals. The dual exciter ones blurred the imaging to my ear. I used KZ ZSX with a FIIO BTR5 to listen. I could hear the solidity that people who prefer the dual Exciter set up we're speaking of but to me it wasn't worth the loss in the airiness and imaging to me. That sub left a lot to be desired to my ear. It seemed to be overly resonant, almost a one note wonder.
Thanks for doing this. It is a fantastic resource for anyone considering building a pair of these.
I am listening on Sony WH-1000XM2. I am 48 yrs old. My high frequency hearing is not too bad but consistent with age. My thoughts are as follows:
1) The Klipsch speakers on the one hand and the set of all the panel speakers on the other hand have a completely different character of sound. It’s very obvious in the bass frequencies and I think it comes about from the panel resonance of the Klipsch enclosures: they sound like shelf speaker boxes. Unsurprisingly, none of the panels have this characteristic sound. I can pick this out easily without looking 😉
2) By comparison, I would describe the sound of all the panels as “fuller” and “more alive” and certainly “more transparent” (which is a way to describe the absence of any sound that is identifiably coming from the speaker as opposed to from the virtual sound stage).
3) I would pick the panels over the Klipsch speakers. The panels are a more enjoyable listening experience in my subjective opinion. As I’m writing this, whenever there is a disappointing sound, I look up to see the Klipsch boxes - they seem “flat” and a bit “dead” by comparison although they do OK on the strings.
4) The differences between the different panel configurations (excluding the sub/no sub change) are more subtle than the differences between the panels and the Klipsch boxes.
5) The main differences I hear between the different panel configs are (smallish) differences in the frequency response. Corners seem sharper (more treble). I would use rounded corners.
6) I think there may be some sibilance from the fabric at 24:38 - 24:39. Vocals sound bad around this point. I would avoid fabric.
7) The frequency response of the dual exciters seems like it may be more even perhaps. I would probably go with multiple exciters.
8) Overall the biggest problem with the panels in terms of subjective enjoyment is obviously the lack of bass. The panels with the subs very obviously had more extended lower frequency response (better) but the sub integration was very poor so the overall effect of the panels with the subs wasn’t a great listening experience. The silicone ears of the mics may also have contributed to the inaccuracy and general flabbiness of the bass perhaps.
9) The next biggest problem with the panels, at least as heard over my headphones, was the lack of accuracy in space of the sound stage: the music fills the stage but is somewhat delocalised; the instruments don’t seem to have a precise location. I think the vertical diamond configuration may be fractionally better in this regard but there was no point at which it was possible to discern excellence from the panels here. This isn’t too surprising as the panels are quite wide and the way to get a good sound stage is to have the sound emitted from a thin vertical line on each side. This is why ribbon tweeters are vertical for example.
10) I think the panels are a bit lacking in clarity and high frequency response. This is described as “air”. Again, this isn’t too surprising given that there is nothing like a tweeter or super tweeter involved.
I have done an alternative DIY attempt (in the same spirit of cheap but good) at audiophile grade floor standing speakers which I think is competitive in terms of cost and ease of construction.
My design is a bit more expensive and a bit more work but includes a very accurate sub which is vertically in line with the midrange and tweeters and so is easy to integrate (phase is naturally correct). Also, all drivers are inline so the sound stage is precise and the line array gives the sound stage a large scale vertically. The clarity is captivating - multiple drivers don’t need to be overworked so they stay in the linear range.
My design ended up as a more traditional floor standing shape which may be a disadvantage if you are considering the panels so they can be hidden.
The design evolved considerably so it’s better to take a look at the end result before restarting at the beginning of the thread to understand the construction details.
Anyway, here it is as an alternative for your consideration:
www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/1-day-ghetto-line-array-build-200.359672/post-7013528
Feel free to comment/ask questions on my thread on diyaudio if necessary.
What an incredible write up and analysis Henry - thank you! I will go check out your thread and your project as well. Thanks for watching and for all the feedback!
Great video and presentation! Will definitely be trying this as a project over the holidays with my kids. Not sure, but I think you might have had the sub turned up too high, which will really distort the sound. You would also benefit from an external Dac to get crisper sound. But these are trivial matters that are easily resolved. Congrats. Look forward to seeing more stuff in the future (you might also consider some Audiophile music for your presentations. Can’t go wrong with Ella)
Wow. great editing. Going to the reference and using different music genres was top notch! I dont know what sounded the best to me so im hoping to see more videos on the topic. even if its just a lazy one discussing viewr comments or such. :) thanks
Thanks Waka! I don't have specific follow-ups planned yet, but do have a bunch of ideas for more interesting testing that I could do... Thanks for watching!
Based on what I heard with my high end headphones I think I’m going to give a build a try with dual exciters, unsanded, uncut panels with my particular amp and eq setup and see how it sounds and go from there.
Ever try that setup?
I listened using Grado SR60 headphones. I kept my eyes closed until I heard what I liked.
I think the dual exciter with the sub sounded best, but I really liked how the heavy cloth dialed back the high end.
I'd like to see these as ceiling tiles used as surround sound speakers in a home theater setup.
Great job!
Hey Jesse - thanks for watching and sharing your impressions. I liked the cloth as well.
Thanks for sharing! In my area, basic PC speakers can be found at thift stores every day for under $5. A good test might be to adapt a set for this type of project and see how they compare to the original "small plastic box".
Favorite is dual exciter with sub. The coverings didn’t seem to change it to much except the heavy to me had slight more base and slightly more muffled high end but barely.
Thank you for the feedback and describing what you heard. :)
@@AmplifyDIY thank u for making this second video where are you listen to your community
I felt the same way. Based on how I heard it all with my headphones, the dual exciters with the sub was the way to go
Clearly the dual exiters sounded “best”, with the triangle dual exiters in the 2nd place. But for me there is way too much mid-upper range. I would tone down those a bit with eq
That is exactly what I do with my daex25x4-4 DML's - I eq the high frequencies down a good deal, also a sub woofer tuned to the speakers is a must, takes DML's to a new level.
There's one combination that has me wondering if it would sound the best. Dual exciters, unsanded, square with a sub woofer. Unsanded, square sound much wider on the mids and highs. If you consider the panels as only mids and highs and allow the sub to handle most of the bass I think you'd nail it.
Exactly what I was thinking too, although the sub level was a little high for my taste.
Great work. To my ears, dual exciters give a fuller and more balanced tone. The sub completes the picture by adding those missing lows.
Any of the panels with the sub gave the best results according to my Sennheisers. I think the dual exciters really didn't make so much difference. Thank you so much for doing this.
Thanks for watching, and sharing your opinion!
Thanks for being a REALLY good sport and trying all these different variations! I did as you recommended and listened with my Sennheiser headphones. Sadly, the moment you switched from the Klipsch speakers to the foams, I exclaimed without really thinking, "Ugh! Tinny and bright!" No variation really did anything to fix that. While I was initially excited, I don't think I'll be making these. Even so, thanks again for all the hard work testing the various ideas.
Thanks for listening!
Dual exciters definitely sounded better to me. I'd love to see/hear the dual exciters set-up combined with each of the cloth covered setups,
and then each of these paired with, and without, a 12" quality subwoofer.
I couldn't tell if shape and sanding made that much of a difference. If it doesn't hurt the sound that much I definitely have a special shape in mind 🙂
Each of the two setups
I really liked the dual exciter with subwoofer I will be making a pair thank you for your video
Good choice!
Definitely The duel exciters. I even like the light fabric tone as wel. That will be my combination. I appreciate this video so much, and great editing btw. One of the best uses for social media I've seen in a decade 👍👍.
Commented on first vid. As well. Those exciters from what I’ve found were really first used behind the drywall or plaster in houses thus making the whole wall a speaker. I like the string mount for total isolation of the speaker onto anything else that would also reverberate ie shelves floor etc etc etc but yeah they sound good. Think I might make a speaker for the garage with the exciter I have. Good job though
I found it depended greatly on what type of music was being played. I liked the panels on classical type music, very airy and open. To me the sub was overpowering. I thought the light fabric faired well, and the triangle also. Heavier fabric gave more bass, and dual exciters gave more reverb. I have a set of speakers that play well-recorded music very well, but not older poor recordings, or newer highly compressed music. This test reminded me a lot of that experience. I listened to this on BT headphones which are probably not super great.
I would love to see this test again with some bass traps in the room. That subwoofer level was WAY
too high as well. The panels themselves sound good, the dual exciters sounded the best by far with the uncovered originals coming in second to my ears.
I appreciate the effort that went into this video. Nice work here!
Much appreciated, Joel - Thanks for watching!
Thanks for all your work putting that together. You did a great job. What struck me was how both unsanded and primer painted panels sounded worse. Amazing. I would have thought that painting, especially in primer would have minimal impact, but I can hear the difference over RUclips. Incredible. At first, I didn't like the cloth covered panels, but after I realized that they decrease the sound level a bit, the sound is less harsh and both the female and male voices sounded better in my ears. The heavy fabric did seem to muddy up other sounds though.
Heya SlicedBread - thanks for the feedback, and for watching!
I only have one question
¿Is it posible to make a 7.1 setup with these?
That would be interesting to watch and test..
Keep it up the excellent content!!!
@Rusty Clark hmm true, i wonder the same now..
Of course it’s possible. You just need a 7.1 decoder running to eight channels of amplifier running to seven panels, and whatever you want to use for a subwoofer. These are just speakers. You could make a 7.1 system or a 5.1 or a mono single panel. They’re just speakers.
@@bennettshapiro7711 thanks man!
It is possible. I use 5.1 in my "cave" :)
The subwoofer integration would have benefitted from a more sophisticated crossover. With a little more attention to placement, crossover frequency and level, I’m sure you could have avoided the mud in the low mids- while keeping the extra low-end extension.
Great video, The dual exciters with sub blew me away. The directional sound from the Klipsch sounded terrible compared to all the panels which were very open and natural sounding. I have both sets of exciters ready to go for my own build, thanks for push.
That, to me, is the most noticeable difference between the panels and any traditional (very directional) speaker setup. These panels just completely fill the room with sound. Acoustic instruments sound unbelievable on them. Thanks for watching!
@@AmplifyDIY This is definitely on my to-do list. Listened to this with a 15 year old (not too expensive) Sennheiser, and the dual exciter is nearly eye-watering, so clear.. Sub sounded a bit loud on all occasions, but that could be my sound settings. Maybe I will try a 5 driver setup to see if that cranks the bass. Theoretically it should also reduce resonances in the panel.
I have 2 really good combinations. 1. Heavy Fabric, Dual exciter ridgid mounted on opposing exciters. I.e. one the center exciter, the other one is mounted to the offset exciter.
2. Symphony of multiple mixes of them all.
They all seem to have a flat sounding tone, but they're all different, so a good combination would be very full. That could create an amazing experience in a movie theater setup.
Excellent video!! I understand why the panels work. Defiantly dual exciters. Why, the quick answer is because you have a quicker response across the whole panel with less absorption/bending of the panel to give a quicker cleaner louder sound. Which in turn gives a larger frequency listening range. The next big thing I would like to know is the frequency response rage those panels have? Lowest frequency to highest frequency. I would suspect something around the 20KHz for the high end response. Then at that point I would purchase a subwoofer that can "come up to" the lower end of the panel frequency or by a mid range speaker to cover the "audio whole" created between the panel and subwoofer frequency responses. You can hear the whole the dual exciters/subwoofer produce in the music you have chosen (excellent range of music). Once again really great video!! thanks!!
Thanks, Daryl! I believe that Dayton publishes frequency responses of each of their exciters on their website. Here is the data for the specific exciters I used: www.daytonaudio.com/images/resources/295-230--dayton-audio-daex32ep-4-specifications.pdf
Thanks for watching!
@@AmplifyDIY I noticed that the frequency response curves were done with 1/2" foam board as opposed to the 1" typically used for these speakers. How much difference in frequency response would you think that the thickness of the foam board makes?
--From the Dayton tech data:
"1/3rd octave smoothing - measurement taken with transducer adhered off-center on a 12" x 12" x ½" foam core board in an infinite baffle setup."
I love this idea and they sound great, couldn't tell the difference between solid mount and floating which made me think, what if you could make these "float" inside a box, this would improve base by inadvertently making itself a passive speaker while still being active, you could use fishing wire as you have here and have a gap around the box opening (speaker to box wall) of around 1 to 2 mm, you could also do this and cover the entire thing in fabric so you wouldn't see the panel but it could make for a great base box seat speaker :)
Great idea!