Are you the one that gets into the booth at around @13:00? What was that first song you played? That had to be an amazing experience! Hope you have a good week this coming week, and may your pockets be full of sunshine!
Compared to typical studio monitors, how would you rate these panels? I would guess the audio sounds much more open but is less accurate than proper monitors. Also, was the sub correctly phased with the panels or did it sound like it had group latency issues. (Obviously, estimating this kind of details without previous knowledge of the music you're hearing will be really hard.)
@@richarda3659 Ceiling acoustic tile doesn't have much harmonic resonance unlike pizza boxes. You basically would want light panels that make no sound when you knock them. As totally silent material doesn't exist you have to whatever you can find. In this video they claimed that that these materials were the best they could find.
I would be interested in seeing a professional audio engineer test these. See how they stack up against some of the more expensive audio monitors out there.
In 1974 at 12 years old I discovered high end audio and it became my world, it was all I thought about. Over the years I read about unique innovations in speaker technology like this but yours are the first I've seen put to use, I'm impressed!
@@TechIngredients I worked in pro audio (live concert sound) for years. I'm a musician, music producer, and I own a recording studio. I know enough about audio to know that subjective tests like this one provide some information, but with no measurable criteria, it's not very useful. Plus, much of the perceived sound quality depends on the program material - how its instrumented, produced, and mastered...and you've added a sub as well. For the record, I do appreciate what you've done here. I trust the test results you obtain that produce *_measurable_* results. From what I've seen, you're thorough, you're very knowledgeable, and I admire your step-by-step approach, such as the method you used in your second best speakers (the Voight tube) video, which I thought was exceedingly well done...brilliant in fact. I would like to see the system response curve as measured through a spectrum analyzer with white noise input. That would provide a great deal of useful information. You could use the same test set-up to balance the sub-woofer with the panels-something that you could only have done by ear with the setup shown in the video. It's not surprising to me that the panel system shown in this video would sound very good to all kinds of folks, and maybe even sound as good as some headphones. But headphones aren't the "gold standard". They're one way to check a mix, but I don't mix on phones, and neither do most engineers. Studio monitors with flat response, tuned to the room, are the standard. It would be very interesting to see the results of that test on your panel system. Thanks for some great videos!
@@Vito_Tuxedo He has prior videos where he has actual measurements for these panels from a few years ago during the initial concepts. This is more like a follow up on that series.
@@Fullchaos40 Unfortunately, to make the measurements that would correlate with "pleasure from the sound reproduction" might not be possible with the current tools, so it all stays in the subjective field. The invited folks are not likely sophisticated audiophiles, meaning it's not likely they would know the difference between a $200 and $20000 setup. At $200 one CAN build a traditional good sounding system. Also notice, the amps that are used in the video - they appear an expensive kind, so the $200 definitely applies to the speakers themselves.
Awesome project! Would love to try out those speakers. Small tip though: Your questions are very leading, thus making it quite difficult to extract common experiences from the answers of the testers. So maybe next time instead of asking "Does it sound better than a home audio system?" ask "What sound experience would you compare these speakers to?". Anways those are my two cents. It's incredible what you guys accomplished!
Also a "how do you usually listen to music?" or "what's the most sophisticated audio system/device you use regularly?" to get a baseline of who we're hearing from
Also let them choose a track that they are really familiar with. That way if it really sounds good to the person they know it's the speakers and not the song choice.
@@esp1818 I was thinking about that too, since that's what I do when I have to set up systems (not professionally), but one possible reason they did not do that is because of copyright strikes when they upload the video to RUclips.
@@KeiNovak the video could have been shot without including want of the music. It's not like we can tell what they sound like, through a RUclips video, anyways.
I built those following the exact steps in previous vidéos : it's been our living room sound system for about 2 years now. Here's my thoughts : Very good sound overall, definitely worth it, I've tested many setups (how many exciters on each panels, what kind, etc.) and there are a few improvements i've had to do. Don't paint those, buy a good subwoofer, don't put the sound too loud for too long (i've done techno party with it, at some point the exciters heat and get damaged), buy large and thick xps panels for the high frequencies or they will get too shrill.
Did you do a YT video ? I am curious if they would perform better with different sized panels for different frequencies , and if the bass panels should be at a different distance from the ear than a high frequency ?
Would the advice not to paint them pertain to just XPS or does it apply to acoustic ceiling tiles too? If so, would it be possible to cover them with a layer of thin painted cloth above without interfering with the sound in a noticeable way?
@corentin2523 +1 for being interesting in your build info. I want to use these mostly for outdoor purposes. I live in a cul de sac where we do a lot of stuff with the neighbors. Would be nice to have easy speakers to set up and take down. Further, we do a big Halloween setup. These speakers would be great for that!
I built a pair from your first video and prefer them to regular speakers. In the single word your testers used- clarity. I have a strong preference for detailed music from banjo to string quartets so I typically stream ad free Venice Classical radio. That said if I play a CD on a nice Pioneer CD player I got from an op shop for $5 I can clearly hear the sound is better. So it ain’t the speakers! I’ve added various subs including one I paid $500 for. I’ll try your 150 Hz setting. I have decent mid priced Senheisers andHiFiman headphones and do not find the panel speakers inferior. I find running the signal through a DAC really helps. $75 KGUSS DAC, $150 SMSL Amp. Bottom line these are my favourite speakers ever and I been experimenting with audio since I was 14.
Plot twist: you are now 15. Just kidding. Discovering good audio is a journey, I'm not a huge fan of dipole speakers but they do have a certain attractive quality. I prefer the room and acoustics playing a minimal role in audio and regrettably, headphones are the most practical way to eliminate the room.
Thanks for reaffirming that this speaker design sound good. It sounds like an interesting idea to have flat speakers that can be hung on the wall. Thanks for testing this idea first and letting us know.
@@Gersberms This setup would also do the trick, as any outside reflection would be much lower volume given distance of panels vs panels -> reflection 1 -> reflection 2 -> ear. Of course, headphones do better... But yeah. In another point of view, headphones give you utter shit soundstage. Headphones also do not give you any visceral impact/feeling from the music. So if dynamics, soundstage, imaging, etc., are of any interest to you, headphones utterly fails. Where headphones excel is detail / resolution. For say 500$ (HP + HP amp), you can get a setup which will give you more detail/resolution than a 5000$ speaker setup. And it's just something you stick on your head and doesn't take an entire room with room treatment. IMHO, speakers suck, because it's not just speakers. It's really speakers + room + listener. If you're not 100% in the sweet listening spot, speakers sound worse. Again, headphones; you stick em up your head and they just work 100%. Far from being the same listening experience though.
@@literalghost929 Soundstage is a real problem for headphones, a smooth 2 dB EQ bump around 3-4 kHz really helps though. I discovered a long time ago that headphones (HD 580 at the time) can easily sound way more precise than even good speakers but comfort is an issue. With speakers though, the entire environment needs to work out - it needs to be quiet, perform well acoustically, and of course the inconvenience, cost, and available space all play a role. I would love to have a dedicated listening room though!
@@Gersberms @literal ghost I think G hit the nail on the head with his first reply when he said it was his preference ... It all depends on how the individual listener prefers to consume their music and the kind they consume ... for some it's headphones, for some a listening room, still others it's with good whiskey and good company in pleasant conversation, or as the fire for a good hard workout, or some Marvin Gaye for setting the mood, or as the beat for a raucous dance party. I don't believe there is a single best way to listen.
About 38 years ago my Science Teacher built a flat panel speaker and the sound was absolutely unreal, my teacher explained how in the future every single wall or poster, like Black Sabbath can become a speaker. Needless to say it never happened but we had a whole semester studying these "Sound Walls" as they are now called.
@@idgaf5252 same with my LG g8. I've had it for about two years and it still kinda trips me out. Would love to get something similar to this setup in my room. You could get some killer quality sound coming down from the walls and ceiling without taking up space
There's some reasons why it is not particularly practical. Resonations are a permanent concern. And because it depends on the individual panel, you'd have to EQ every installation. Also, low frequencies are hard to produce. I integrated drivers in the past, and it's just so dependent on where you mount it.
Dear TI, please do a video where you answer a few dozen of the great questions in the comments, in a rapid-fire fashion. There are some excellent questions here. So glad you released this update on the audio panels!
I've spent a good chunk of my life around music reproduction. I've worked with sound systems, recording studios and am a bit of an audiophile. My stereo is probably (after my car and house) the most expensive item I own. I would love to see how people in the music industry rate your speakers and speaker setups. Most people can't tell Sennheiser from Heinz beans tins and friends are often favourable to your creations.
Fair enough, but don't "discount" cost. Engineering is the art of compromise. Specifying a component that really does perform 10% better, but costs twenty times as much may make a project undoable.
@@TechIngredients totally, but many like Nic or I would certainly love to hear from HiFi enthusiasts how they sound, maybe even compared to magnetostats. Right now I don't know what to think, I'm definitely tempted to do a little project with the kids, have to dig through your videos (which I've watched!) again because you seem to have changed the recommended the relative positioning in relation to the panel once more? thanks like always
I absolutely enjoy seeing how you present everything so clearly and controlled. I know this is not the topic at hand but I'm impressed with your emotional control.
As an audio/electrical/electronics engineer I will be building this amazing project! Class A amplifiers will be used for minimum distortion, I will be making measurements with Oscilloscope and my Bower mics to show how well it works. This is truly amazing. Thankyou for the inspiration! I can't truly show how impressed I am with this and this channel and all you do. You truly show your interest, intent and passion for nuclear, mechanical electrical and electronics engineering and other attributes. You remind me of myself!!!! I am so happy to see you truly devoting your life as I also have. I look forward to the video I make showing how amazing this is.
@@Timsturbs That was my thought as well, tubes produce some the most distortion found in any class of amp. Lowest distortion (at least at a feasible price) would be using class D, e.g. Hypex nCore or Purifi amps.
Thanks again for doing a video on the sound exciters. I was at loss for my surround speakers at home due to my wife claiming they're an eye sore. Since your first introduction of the foam panels,, I've since fabric wrapped two panels and hung them using translucent fishing line. Speakers are now hidden in wall art : ) Thanks a million !
Should test this with a game (probably a FPS game) where the sound stage, direction, and distance volume matters a lot. Something that the headphones excel at and is often very hard to do without a lot of work with speakers set up.
I guarantee that my Sennheiser HD 590 headphones, completely trash this setup.. In clarity, accurate Bass, and 3d Soundstage... despite only having two drivers. The issue with these things, is Distortion. They rely on the type of material, and the way it flexes... but there is no way to keep it from distorting. And the problem with distortion... is that even the smallest amount of distortions occur... it completely ruins the accuracy in a projected 3d Soundstage. If you want speakers that produce a realistic 3d soundstage... find some old EPI 100v speakers. Get the ones that have the updated tweeter that has a plastic bezel around it. (or buy the parts from Humanspeakers, and make your own) My EPIs completely Destroy the $3000 speakers at the local high end stereo shop. Its not even close to being a competition. Its like comparing a microwaved hotdog at home, to a perfectly cooked steak dinner... at a world class establishment. The speakers "Vanish", and you are left with sound that is all around you... as if the Band members are playing in the room.. and you could point in 3d space where each were standing. They have an expanded sweet-spot.. to where you can almost stand in front on one speaker, and still get an amazing 3d stereo image. Even at max volume... you will have virtually no distortion... and will hear things in music, that you have never heard before. Even on pieces of music that you have listened to for several decades. This is because other drivers lack the power and precision to keep from distorting the output... and so certain sounds end up getting muffled and blended together.
@@johndough8115 I think this is more of a tech demo/learning experience. I will accept that, no, they would not stand up to your indicated hardware. I think the goal here is a 'good enough' solution. Minimal effort applied for better than average results. NOT perfect. But better than average for non audiophiles.
@@johndough8115 I knew it wouldn't be long before the AuDiOpHiLes would crop up and start with the, "jUsT gEt sOmE oLd/uSeD [insert random p/n, that no one has ever heard of, here]. They'll sound way better." LOL. "Find some old HG7650s and hook them up to a MA-8D and you'll have -speakers- MoNiToRs that rival studio reference speakers."
Agreed a Round of C.O.D. I'd recommend, That way you would have to figure out background music V.S. Mic Audio and with game chat, That would be the true test. #SeacoastStrong #beantownbushcraft 🇺🇸☘️
Thank you for inspiring a whole new movement in audio playback philosophy. I've followed your progression and built a variety of driver and panel combinations. I settled on .625 in thick high grade birch marine plywood. Installed 1 each 2'x2' and 1 each 2'x4' panel per side. The panels hung one over the other, linked by fine elastic cord through small holes drilled near the corners of each, 1' from the wall by shelving brackets. I have excellent response from mounting 2 of the EX32EP2-4 exciters per 2'x2' panel in series. For the 2-2'x4' I installed 1 each of the BST-2 Tactile Bass Shakers...yes, bass shakers. Spray painted front side of all 4 panels with truck bed coating leaving the back side natural. Driving the 4 panels with a Lepai Bluetooth stereo amp with 45w/ch into 4 outputs. For equalization I found the Timpano TPT-EQ7 handy because it has an adjustable Subwoofer output for augmenting tones below 50hz, with a 12" RCF powered unit. My fellow musicians and friends are amazed by the lively tactile experience across the entire perceivable audio spectrum. I like to listen with my back to them with the video display in front of me. Very much like movie theater/headphone presentation. Fun stuff for sure!
I made 2 of these speakers out of pink insulation foam and added a free subwoofer I found in by the dumpster and they sound pretty good! I didn't realize I could use the dense acoustic ceiling tiles to get those low frequencies but I may do that to round out the frequency spectrum!
I made the acoustic ceiling tile version, 1/2 full size tile vertically per speaker with the "extra bass" exciters. Still no bass. I wouldn't bother revising your setup.
I love you so much just for drilling into so many young skulls the idea that YOU CAN build something, and you can build something BETTER than the sales margin filled plastic garbage you'd otherwise buy without thinking. I don't have an exact estimate but the world is going to be around 40% to 50% better because of examples like yours. The solution to our every common problem is trying and doing. Keep it up and thank you so much.
As someone in my 50's, I can certainly agree with you. So much these days based on the Bic lighter mentality. I've got an expensive speaker system that's about 12 years old and the manufacturer doesn't even have parts support for them anymore. I think it's ridiculous. Good thing there's places like Parts Express to try and solve some of these issues. That and I'm technically inclined enough to fix my own amps etc.
I am currently running my full surround rear and atmos system on these dml speakers. I love them. Crystal clear and inexpensive. Light weight to hang. They aren't the prettiest but totally functional. I haven't tried front stage yet due to not having an acoustically transparent screen yet.
Love the Project. Inspired by the previous video, I was looking into using DML-Style speakers to power my living room. We experimented with different available materials in Europe. However, we noticed that while we can work around frequency problems with DSPs, we definitely need a high tweeter covering 6.5+ khz. Same goes for base < 150 hz. More problematic was that with very dense music the clarity is lacking. Its fine with classical solo instruments (Cellos and mid-to-lower woodwinds like Clarinets where amazing) + Radio. But romantic orchestras, hard rock and metal does distort too much. We could measure some of this with REW, so it was not subjective. We evaluated it as two classical trained musicians. Sadly, It was not good enough to be deployed. Now going back to a closed, DSP driven variant. I liked the idea of room layouts DML would open.
Yeah I used REW and a MiniDSP for my setup. There was a pretty decent amount of boost around 7k and up like you say, and a huge amount of cut in the upper-mids. The 2ft by 4ft didn't get low enough, so my crossover point has to be crazy high, like nearly 200Hz. Which is high enough that you can hear the position of the subwoofer. My living room is a rather "live" setting, but in a better setting, I would be curious how precise the sound stage is. One thing it is awesome at is projection. They have very little falloff, so they are good for filling a house or large room. And once adjusted, they sound FAR better than what you would expect from something like this.
This is a common problem with broadband speakers, the lower frequencies cause a doppler effect o the higher ones. It's called intermodulation and basiclally unavoidable. One of the reasons why realistic sounding speakers need 2 or 3 drivers for what you call dense music.
yep although really fun to play with and insane cheap of course. it wont be beating regular speakers or planar magnetics etc. still a really nice novelty and ejoyable also for kids to make stuff them self.
I love it. I do a lot of remodelling, and almost never see any emphasis in peoples audio. Even if these don't measure super well, the fact that it is affordable and giving people a new or renewed enjoyment of music is a great thing. Some audio snobs might raise their nose at such a set up, but the testers' smiles says it all.
if you wanted the "no speakers" look, planting these into a false ceiling would be a breeze. it might be capable of some volume if all the ceiling tiles were glued in place (silicone?) to eliminate any rattling.
@@modelnutty6503 well, it wouldn't sound good because the tiles would absorb a particular spectrum of the sound, it would sound muffled for sure. Unless you substituted some acoustic fabric for the tiles... That might be an option.
Dear Mr. Main Presenter, I am in awe of you. The thought and detail you put into your projects is just amazing. Like in this video, you even made a base to hold the video tripod on your speaker scaffolding. If you were a teacher, you would be the most popular one in the school, and your class would fill up in the first 5 minutes of registration. It’s really frustrating for me, waiting for your next video to drop, having seen all of them. Would like to see more on rockets and drones. Your #1 fan, Me
I love how Alex runs/jogs everywhere. I was like this (many years ago). Ahh to be young again... Awesome idea with these speakers. It would be interesting to set up a true home theatre surround sound system in a living room with these. I imagine they would sound quite a bit better than any of the theatres I've been to. All the ones around here the audio is really lacking.
Thanks to your original video a few years ago, I got badly addicted to DML speakers and actively followed some of the threads on the audiophile forums testing and evaluating designs. I like you, fortunately had access to wide range of materials to run my own (subjective) tests on and came to a few conclusions: 1) Pick repeatable tracks. Mine are: "Adagio for Strings" (low pitch Cello) , "Bohemian Rhapsody" (rock, electric guitar & high pitched vocals), "Refined Enlightenment" (high pitch violins), Romanza (Romance Anónimo, Spanish guitar), Above & Beyond - Alchemy (electronic house with vocals) 2) Every material I tried failed on one of those tracks, clarity, bass, vocals etc etc. But a few had standout areas, the answer was a combination of materials. 3) My personal favourite is a canvas picture frame, stretched over a wood frame, tightened with a watered down PVA glue wash and on the rear a 0.8mm plywood veneer sheet PVA glued to the back of the canvas. The exciter was mounted on a 3mm plywood disk glued to the veneer at 50/50 and 2/3rds. The canvas frame gives a love warm bass, and the plywood veneer and discs damp any unpleasant over vibration whilst preserving clarity. I am absolutely convinced, there is no "one best" single material for best sound reproduction, you need a mix of materials, then they easily beat anything else I have heard.
Neil, do you share your build and testing experiences on a blog or forum? I have been thinking about building a theater room in a 10'x20' space. Outfitting the entire room with these type speakers because of the uniqueness and the possibility of building it with my children as the speaker builds are simple enough and safe enough. I can't quite picture what you described in 3) with confidence but I am really interested to know more. I think it would be something really special that my children would be able to claim the theater build when they have friends over to watch Frozen or Cars. :)
@@marcgenre5563 Apologies, it appears RUclips in its' wisdom, won't let me post links to the information you need, so re-posting without links and trying to offer "pointers" :( The honest answer is everything I have learned except through my own experimentation is by standing on the shoulders of others! I fanatically read the DiyAudio forum thread which currently stands at almost 300 pages of discussions and others experiments. The specific page starts the discussion of the canvas panels I mentioned starts at page 221, search for diyaudio - "a-study-of-dmls-as-a-full-range-speaker." As for what I described, (sorry again no link) it is basically a 25cm x 30cm (or bigger!) blank artists canvas picture frame from Amazon with a wash of 50:50 PVA glue on the front to tighten the canvas and a sheet of 0.8mm the plywood glued with PVA to the rear of the canvas. I then use a Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 exciter fixed to the rear and a small Fosi Audio bluetooth amp (BT10A) to play through for experiments. The basics are wonderfully simple and fascinating to play around with, and I'd say lots of fun for children and especially with some science thrown in!
BTW, When gluing the plywood sheet to the rear of the canvas, you must make sure the plywood is smaller than the canvas so there is a gap between the plywood edge and the canvas wood frame (I like 10-15mm), and also ensure the plywood is thoroughly stuck to the canvas, especially around the plywood edges otherwise you get unpleasant vibrations at certain frequencies as the plywood can't damp the canvas and they collide with each other. The principle broadly, seems to be about how quickly the vibrations spread across each material, and how quickly each material can respond to those vibrations and so create pressure waves in the air.
@@NeilStansbury Great info and thanks for the reply. I have already gone to the site and page in the forum and will start digging in to see what is possible and realistically achievable by the kids and myself. I think I once found some DIY amplifier kits that seemed to be something not overly complicated. I will dig around for something like that too. The more I can involve the kids the better, I have learned to never underestimate what my kids are capable of doing so the sky is the limit even if the budget has to stay close to the ground. 😀
It's fun to watch these videos again. I built a pair with acoustic ceiling tiles, painted them black with spray paint, and placed two drivers on each panel in series configuration, one in the direct center and one at the 2/5ths 3/5ths spacing. They sound great! They compliment my 2 towers, a center channel and subwoofer stereo system, and have a "gluing" effect as i call it. Without them on, you can tell where the sound is directionally coming from. With them on, it's clean, non-directional, room filling sound! The best part is that because it's omni-directional, you dont need to turn it up loudly to cleanly hear your material, but can also have conversations in the same room.
As an inventor of DMP drivers (see my patents), I found that the key was the BML force of the driver. The sound is truly immersive, for some environments much better than conventional speakers i.e. restaurants, offices, open space. However, I do not believe these will ever produce true high fidelity sound because of the phase incoherence in the radiation source.
Try Borosilicate GLASS panels as wall-based speakers --- The Boron is not only a high temperature stabilizer within the silica but also acts as a microscopic dampener. You could probably also use automotive safety glass panels which have polyethylene sheets embedded in-between the multiple layers of glass to ALSO act as dampeners. For high frequencies (i.e. wall based tweeters) and super-low bass (below 100 Hz) maybe something like a Sapphire Sheet or hard ceramic might work better. A possible suggestion for comb effects and signal multi-path or unwanted signal cancellation/reduction is a FLUID such as water or even mineral oil sandwiched between sheets of fibreboard, glass or ceramic to act as an intermediate absorber. In some cases a fluid lighter than water such as an alcohol (i.e. ethyl or methyl alcohol) or a hydrocarbon (i.e. hydraulic fluid or Engine Oil) could work to dampen a speaker while still allowing certain frequencies to emit or pass-through. Somebody needs to spend time on an acoustic raytrace application to check out HOW audio waves will behave WITHIN, on the surface of and outside of these types of wallboard speakers. Four AMD GPU graphics cards combined together to create a virtual supercomputer in an x499 motherboard filled to the brim with lots of system RAM memory and lots of disk space could do this simulation to OPTIMIZE the fibreboard or glass/ceramic board construction and placement within less than a month! You can even use common open source optical ray tracing and/or computational fluid dynamics software to convert fluid movement into an acoustic waves simulation what would create an optimized construction and materials survey of these types of speakers! Just a suggestion! The above ideas are now free and open source under GPL-3 Licence terms - June 19, 2022! V
@@toseltreps1101 This TWERP has 30+ years in Aerospace doing 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k video cinematography/editing PLUS designing and coding custom 10,000 fps fractal video and audio compression systems WITH 65,000 objects per frame 2D-XY and 3D-XY SOBEL/CANNY edge detection for automated vector conversion and fully automatic object recognition, tracking, targeting and fire control! Me thinks THIS TWERP might know what I am talking about even WITH THE ALL-CAPS! ALL-CAPS! They're Good Fer Ya Cuz They Got Electrolytes! V
This was such a wonderful video! Very informative and learned quite a bit of things! Also, the hospitality for others, providing pizza, a disco party, and even the small stuff "Let's get you something to eat" is beautiful. Made me smile a lot because I do adore such compassion for others as such. Continue being the great man you are :) And thank you all for what you and your team do.
Excellent video! I am hoping for a part 2 for any new results for fitting this to my living room dimensions. I'm willing to get rid of all my wife's crap in their and panel all the walls with speakers if necessary. And obviously that will be necessary.
They shouldn't be legal... they should be "not illegal"! I watch so many amazing people on RUclips, but I am more frequently blown away by you and your style of life than anyone else. An amazing man using his amazing brain for awesome things, all while teaching.
I'll never get tired of this channel. Always a pleasure to watch. Later this year I want to build these speakers, seems like a fun, easy and useful project.
Out of curiosity, run a long slow sine sweep of one of those polystrene panels from 100 Hz to 20,000 Hz, and have a look at the Lissajous curve plotting the output against the input. I have a feeling you'll find a frequency that is a garbled mess of a pattern (but still stable) instead of the ellipse you might expect.
Seconded. And then... Put the microphone inside the amplifier's negative feedback loop, to make the amp drive the output signal to make the panel/cone more accurately match the input signal. ie: make the normally-passive air-displacement surface, an active part of the amp's negative-feedback loop.
If I'm remembering correctly, they did a significant amount of this exact type is testing in their earlier videos on this type of speaker a couple years back.
I also know big audio words and want to contribute to this conversation desperately! Bandpass filter! MIDI input! uhm... and how about some bell curve? yeah that's right!
Excellent work, gentlemen. Your son Alex did fantastic work making sure the project ran smoothly. It's definitely a Proud Dad Moment, in my book. Congratulations you guys.
I built a pair made from pink foam board at Home Depot and some exciters from parts express… absolutely awesome 👏 I use a Nobound miniature 50 watt amplifier. The sound is excellent. My Martin Logans are jealous.
Building a massive public art installation using a similar version of your panels. You two are inspiring keep it up. Glad to see you all back in action!
:) i wanted to do that for years with my planar magnetic DIY speakers.. walls of real planar magnetic speaker.. still waiting for an artist that want to make something like that with me haha
Should they be legal? Of course not! There should be an entire department of government devoted to the licensing and regulation of speakers. What a question!
They already took the automatic speakers in 1934, and they're coming after the large, semiautomatic speakers now. Soon, they will get those and will then come after the bolt-action and single-shot speakers. Next, we will lose the small speakers which will fit in your hand. They won't stop until they get all of our speakers. Don't worry, though -- they will still have THEIR speakers!
@Tech Ingredients Wiring the drivers in series is a trick done in commercial speakers to improve the performance. It causes Mechanical resonance peaks to cause an increase in electrical impedance which reduces the output of the other driver. This has the effect of smoothing out resonance peaks to some degree. Since this design of speaker has a lot of (smaller) peaks, having the two separate panels of different materials (therefore different resonances) in series helps them smooth out each other. It might even help to position the drivers slightly different within each pair of speakers (but as with everything to do with speakers, the proof of the pudding is in the eating). Please do a waterfall graph for these speakers.
I made a set of these and hung them in my parents living room from the ceiling over the chair and couch and placed a sub in the corner. set up in parallel driven by a small Fossi amp off Amazon and they love it. Given the thin nature of the panels they take up very little space and flood the entire room with sound. For less than $350 canadian dollars I built and wired the entire system. Thank you Tech Ingredients! Keep up the great work!
A very long-awaited update! I made such panels from acrylic glass here in Ukraine, and the totally substituted my desktop speaker for more than a year now! Amazing! Please, more experiments with these!
I do enjoy this channel so much so I was happy to see this interesting approach using the 5.1 multiple driver technique in a smaller listening space where presumably being close to the panels you don't have to drive them very hard to get sufficient output . I have tried several of the parts express exciter units on both the polystyrene panels - 2X2 and thin 1/4 inch plywood 4X4 and 2X2. I thought the wood would be closer to tone a musical instrument than the plastic panel and it was. Acoustic guitars were quite good. BTW the results from mounting one of these exciters on a guitar it self is amazing. While I am sure the bass response on the larger panels is better than smaller ones the downside is that they resonate - plunk your finger on the panel and if you hear it ring and decay even a little, it will do it during excitation or musical input at various multiples of the resonant frequency's. Its frankly more than a little disconcerting and very noticeable at moderate volumes. More inert materials like ceiling tiles that dampen resonances or applying some kind of dampening material to the panel will also help with the resonances but ultimately also dampens all the frequency's making the output more inefficient. There is a French company what claims to have built speakers and tuned them to dampen all the resonances ( they also use tone wood, specific panel suspension and make musical instruments so maybe they know how ) but the speakers are stupid expensive which is not what anyone who watches this channel would pay for. I have found that crossing panels over at higher frequency's does reduce this resonance effect and makes it more listenable. I have also found that high frequency response can be quite peaky and does not quite reach the sparkle you would want from a good speaker. Suggest anyone who wants to try this get REW software ( free ) and a measurement microphone from parts express so you can run frequency sweeps to see the response and resonances. So to build a really good system capable of reproducing full range and taking advantage of the DML dipole characteristics - I suggest a large woofer in a open baffle cabinet - H frame, a DML radiator for the midrange and upper frequencies and a separate ribbon tweeter to pick up the sparkle. it is possible to tune them using active crossovers and separate amplifiers that are not expensive. If you would like to discuss the design you may contact me here - RBEK15@msn.com. My total parts cost for my these speakers is less than $500 including amplification . And the sound quality? 10X that - at least.
The super light weight coupled with with large surface area is entirely different than conventional speakers. I agree, would love to see a sound frequency response curve.
ceiling tiles are far from lightweight... I'm thinking balsa wood panels wrapped in a single layer of fiberglass or maybe just a coating of "structural" paint such as epoxy would be good... The boron-silicate glass mentioned above makes a lot of sense , making and shaping would realistically have to be done at time of manufacture when still molten , it's just the old "pyrex" formula for glass
I remember seeing conceptually the same type of drivers, "turn any panel into a speaker!", but it was just a puny driver with an aux chord. Then i saw your first video on the subject some years ago, and now this one. Thanks for the content!!
Great to see these DMLs growing! Please go in-depth with these - standardized measurements, comparison with commercial speakers, proper A/B testing in stereo setup, and get a pro audio engineer to analyze them if you can. It doesn't matter if they don't stack up as you might expect, we all think you already did a fantastic job in selecting materials and constructing them, any shortcomings will only point to possible improvements. Great channel, great work, great presenter!
I can imagine frequency response being accurate around the 800 and 10,000hz range with the ceiling tiles and about the 13,000hz range with the other panels. Surrounded in such a small area makes listeners' reception less likely to be absorbed by the tiles before being heard. Think I'll order some of the drivers for experimenting in my 30x30 bedroom.wish me luck😊
You can grab a cheap calibrated mic, measure the frequency response with REW and make a good EQ to load into equalizerAPO (windows) or a miniDSP. Makes it sound soooo much better.
They won't be accurate above 5khz at all. They got to much surface area and directivity will happen. I can eq my 18" subwoofer to play to 5khz but it won't sound good.
A friend and I stumbled on some speakers like this from Magnepan called Magneplanars in the mid-70's. They were really nice. I suspect their price was a factor in them not becoming more widely accepted. I see that they are still out there online.
I had a costomer that hand made speakers, he even wound his own voice coils. He would come to your house and measure the diminsions of the room where the speakers were to be placed, he would prick thev walls with some sort of tool that measures humidity and other factors, simply write down everything and build speakers based off of all his information. His speakers were made from accordian paper and used custom Alinco magnets that were specially manufactured for him. Audio acustics is an infinite science, a very interesting subject to say the least!.
I agree, there is so much factors going into a sound wave that it becomes a true art to manipulate them in just the right way. If you think about it a sound wave has 5 dimensions to it 3 spacial, one amplitude and a spectrum/wavelength to balance. If you now factor in that every part of the spectrum represents a vastly different behavior of the wave and you need to find the right compromise it becomes very complex very quickly. Now that I think about it you even have a 6th factor in play being the directional vector of the wave.
@@landondavid5773 Cut the edge of your average Amazon Box, or other type of brown packing box, and you will see an accordion fold sandwiched between the upper and lower layers of a box panel. The triangles between the flats.
Designing speakers you can start with the science and put all we know into it and then you go black magic... Only partly joking as it seems no matter how much research is put into sound and speaker construction there's still something we lack. And that's before you get to the perception bias that everyone have. Most of us will, if given the choice, select a speaker setup that add a "warm" tone to the sound over a speaker setup that is measurably more accurate and neutral. The warmer sound comforts us while the more neutral sound can be more demanding and won't mask any harsh transients. I'm not going to judge and say one is sounding better than the other, because you are entitled to choose what sounds better to you. But what is touted as better isn't always what sounds more natural. It's like with food. Some times we don't want natural. Some times we want the familiar taste of highly processed food. Same with sound. The harsh sound of reality isn't as comforting as the warm smooth sound you get from a warm amp with glowing tubes and some tasty high end speakers.
Having random strangers test these is one thing but having audio engineers test would be another. Also you'd have to not be afraid of copyright strikes. Let them listen to the songs they know/want. I believe the speakers work well but aren't going to beat out decent headphones or bookshelf speakers.
Agreed - and to expand a little on what you say, audio engineers will use what they call 'reference tracks' - which they know inside out - and these represent the constant where the equipment, the acoustic space, air humidity etc. are the variables. Each engineer should be invited to bring their own reference tracks - then you'd have some interesting conversations.
@@julian.morgan dude. He's not trying to submit these speakers for the title of the best, most accurate, speakers ever made. He's trying to show that $25 speakers sound pretty good. Nothing more, nothing less.
I would tend to agree, but who is the target audience of the video? It's a damn cool tech demo which demonstrates tinkering with electronics and then tickle your brain with sound waves. I'd love to sit with a couple of the Supertramp tracks I've listened to my whole life. I might build me a couple of these critters to see for myself. :)
They have to be afraid of copyright strikes. Do you know nothing about RUclips? They could still let the people listen to their own music, but you would still have to play the copyright free stuff over it and make a note that it wasn't the same thing they were listening to.
I can really see this being useful for places like yoga studios. They could line the walls with a few *dozen* sets, then play back B-Format audio of various relaxing locales to really place their clients in a mountain meadow/on a quiet beach/etc.
TECH: If you build a slightly larger setup to fit a king sized bed and add sound deadening circuitry to feed the amp instead (hacked from sound deadening headphones or elsewhere) you would have the ultimate quiet sleeping environment! Cool video :)
"We've done a large number of videos on sound." Yes, in fact that's how I found you. First video I ever watched was the building of those really cool panels.
It might be more meaningful if you could offer the listeners two options, such as the ability to switch to a standard pair of monitors. Some pretty crummy traditional speakers with a lot of DPS work to level out the frequency response can sound fairly decent in an otherwise more natural environment, like an office. There are some brands (*cough*Bose*cough*) that I think are known for this. I imagine anything that is non-garbage tier will sound "good" to someone off the street. Most people are probably going to be quite fine with an $80 2.1 computer speaker setup in a near field environment like that, and without anything to compare, may think it sounds good to them. That's not necessarily a good or bad result. The warehouse environment is very unnatural and unusual, so I'm not suggesting people listen to computer speakers sitting in the middle of a warehouse without any panels around them, then compare to your panels that just happen to be active themselves, as I think the damping factor is the biggest thing at play due to the unusual environment you've chosen. I still would worry about modes in your material despite damping effect of the material itself since the further out you get from the driver the less coupling there is due to material flex, leading to ringing and phase shift. Something I imagine the average listener will not notice unless it is quite bad and probably measurable.
I setup two of these panels for my living room home entertainment system. The panels are paper faced foam board. I have them hanging either side of my TV. I run a subwoofer for the bass and i think it sounds really good. My friend came over recently who is musician and was so impressed that he ordered some for himself. Are they top-quality studio monitors in a tuned studio space? No, but for the price, it is near impossible to beat.
I'm curious about the panels on the left and right channel directly facing each-other. Seems like this could cause some unwanted frequency cancelling. I think most audio is mixed assuming that the left and right channel are in front of you. I would be really curious to hear what it sounds like with 5 panels directly in front of you. 2 left, 1 center, 2 right. Repeat for the rear. Seems like the soundstage would be massive. I love these audio projects you do, thanks for all the info!
I clearly remember subscribing at 25000 subscriber's , and was shocked how good the videos were , I always knew it would take long to reach 1 million subscribers. Congratulations on your growth 👏 ✨️ 🙌 💛
I love these videos because this guy talks at such a steady pace I feel like hes about to show me some wild experiment and then most of the time he ends up doing just that. the handheld cam always gives it a doc brown feel.
Many long years ago we played with driving sheets of glass and the results were interesting to say the least. The acoustic characteristics varied with time. Fresh glass sounded very different to glass a couple of years old. Also if the speakers weren’t used for a few weeks, they’d need to be driven hard for a few hours to return to the same state they’d been before they were rested. The tweeters were fascinating: Two piezo transducers glued to opposite sides of a Ping-Pong ball. The 360° dispersion created brilliant sound-stage. Unfortunately, every so often one of the piezo devices would explode and so the tweeter would need to be replaced.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind Glass is better thought of as an amorphous solid. While it’s often referred to as a high viscosity liquid there’s a lack of empirical evidence for this on human time-scales. Clearly we were experiencing the effect of changes to local structure we had no way of determining what they were and even today I couldn’t find anything relevant in an admittedly cursory lit search. The chap who was responsible for exploring these novel acoustic approaches reverted to using more conventional drivers and techniques. Sadly he became quite hostile when I purchased my current speakers from someone he doesn’t approve. So it goes...
Would really like to know more about the rest of the setup, amps used, etc. Teasing the idea of making a gaming/theater/vr room in a spare room and want to test these out for myself.
A work mate from my friend used to custom build HiFi amps (really beautiful, with a custom PCB where everything was laid out in circles), and also flat panel speakers. He used some plastic board type of material that reminded me of these white, slightly translucent double-pane boards with internal bridges every ~5mm or so. He mounted them into racks, varying from picture frame size to 2.3m high and ~60cm wide free standing versions. When we visited his home, we got an amazing demo of them in conjunction with his also custom built massive subwoofers. Quite an experience! Mind you, this was also over 20 years ago by now!
Cool setup, I need to get around to making some and testing them in our anechoic chamber. I'm curious what their directionality is like and if you could optimize a 3d shape to counter modes on the panel. Constructive criticism intended. To really get a good comparison an A/B would be cool to see. Also doing it as 5.1 to compare to their existing headphones or at home stuff it is a hard comparison to draw because most people don't listen to music in 5.1, and by up mixing you will inherently get better feedback due to how we perceptually weight spatialization of audio psychoacousticly. Head Acoustics released some cool data on this.
Hey I'm just thinking out loud here but if you have an anechoic chamber to use, maybe do the A/B yourself. Why not use some of the other individuals in ''our'' to do a better test?
This is awesome! Would love to hear it. Have you experimented with having the front L & R panels angled in like traditional studio monitors? This would help with phantom center imaging from stereo information routed to those speakers. When mixing for 5.1 or atmos, most stereo tracks don’t output the mono information to the center channel. In audio for picture typically music is mixed to front L & R, and center channel is saved for movie dialogue. Upmixing stereo audio to 5.1 might be different though, not sure if in that process the mono information gets routed to the center channel or not. Great work! Pumped to see if you make an atmos version
“Sonarworks SoundID Reference Measurement Microphone” is a microphone that when paired with the Sonarworks software uses an EQ to make a completely or close to as flat as possible frequency range. I think if you used this microphone which is commonly used in professional mastering studios calibration for music production it would give you amazing results and insight into where frequencies are building up. It would also be interesting if you could find a mastering engineer locally that would be willing to come sit in the box with a trained ear and tell you if this could be a substitute for studio monitors
A calibrated measurement mic is not a recording or tracking mic. It will work of course and likely sound clean and critical but not what it is really designed for. 20-20k flat is not always a good thing.
@@mikeiver This mic is only intended for calibrating the Sonarworks software. It has a gyro inside and is why this spastic mic is useful for calibration. Flat is the goal and why mixing studios spend millions to get a flat sound
@@mikeiver Well, yeah. A measurement mic is for measurement and only that. It is good you mentioned that in case someone might think they are for recordings. I was wondering if you had tried REW ? and could compare it to sonarworks. REW is a huge package. It takes some time to learn, but there is a lot of info and seems to be versatile for many uses. I've used REW for much more than room measurement. I've used it to >> dial in crossovers ; test signal to noise ratio's of amps/synths/drum machiens/etc... ; test speakers themselves. like the individual speakers from a 3 way ; adjusting port size of speaker enclosures ; and of course acoustic treatment of studio recording spaces. It helps you pinpoint where to put the foam & even can show what happens when you put chairs in the room. It's pretty cool !!
@@RyLeedepressed mixing studios don't spend millions getting to flat. Who told you that? Again, you can tweak a space and deal with room anomalies, install base traps and wall, floor, and ceiling treatments, and get the hot seat to sound really good fairly easily. But in the end the engineers learn the room and the speakers they are monitoring on. There are few "magic rooms". But we are off subject here.
Seems really interesting, but wouldn't a pentagon shape be more optimal for the enclosure than a square shape (for sound immersion and avoiding comb filtering, etc)?
I'd be interested in seeing a comparative assessment of how panel shape affects the experience. Hopefully the team looks into manifesting such an overview.
I remember squinting my eyes when in the second tutorial video you brought out acoustic ceiling tiles and said they work well as speakers. I thought to myself: aren't these made to absorb sound rather than produce it? It's very interesting that they do double duty in this setup. I'm tempted to make a set of these, maybe two channels is enough, and put them up in my bedroom to use them at low volume, because in my experience larger speakers sound better even at low volume. And besides, they look cool! Thanks for the episode.
2 channel would definitely work with this style of speaker. I also agree, large speakers not being driven hard sound way better than smaller speakers that are closer to their threshold.
It's like how black surfaces aren't just good at absorbing heat, they're also good at emitting it. Being strongly coupled in one direction makes it strongly coupled in the other direction.
I just want to say how much I appreciate you, your time, your experience, and knowledge. It's not easy to find high-end information that is interesting and applicable. I could go on ad infinitum. I came across your channel when my AC went out last week just when Alabama started a brutal heat wave. I'm tired of the 400 dollar service calls that just end in them saying you need a $6000 replacement. NO!! I Need salt water and pvc!! LOL. If I can recommend future videos, it would be more along the lines of thermal management around graphene and heat pipes. MORE MORE MORE!!
Love this channel and the content you put out. Just wondering, for the purposes of testing, since audio people like and reference equipment to specific piece/s of music they like, you could test the speakers with their choice of music and so long as it is not included and broadcast in your videos, then copyright isn't an issue. That way, with familiar music, people are probably better able to discern differences between their existing equipment vs new.
The experiment was rigged with pizza I don't believe it. Y'all always surprise me with these great projects! Good job guys, I love this channel so much
this is so cool , this guy was my mentor. i built a pair after his first video , they sound fantastic , but they do need a sub for the full effect . Tech Ingredients has the best videos
1. How much free space is needed behind before it notable affect the sound? 2. The sound absorption panels, do they release some carcinogens substance? 3. As a next speaker project, could you do a compact push-pull subwoofer, like the brand Sunfire (my builds sounded terrible)?
I built these based on their previous video, and did some testing of #1. I needed at least 8", and preferably 10"-12" of space between each ceiling tile and the wall behind them. If they are too close to the wall the sound becomes very thin.
@@thomastapen39 Have you tried using sound absorbent material behind the speakers? I'm wondering if that would allow the panels to be closer to the walls as well as reduce sound transmission to other rooms.
This was super interesting; I didn't realize you could use materials like ceiling tiles to act as speakers. I have a suggestion for a follow-on video & possible commercial application; I had the idea immediately upon seeing these... noise-cancelling panels / walls. I wanted to try & make such a system when I lived in the city & had a few neighbors in nearby buildings that would play extremely loud music all night long, but I didn't have the tools or time or knowledge to pursue it at the time. I feel like these ceiling tiles / other flat panels would make an ideal solution, where noise is coming in through a wall, a sensitive mic picks it up, & plays the inverted signal through the panel. I personally don't have much sound issues anymore, though I know lots of people do & would love something like this, whether it's the sirens of the city or the birds chirping at 5 am. I'm down to help with the signal processing part of it if interested.
@@tdtrecordsmusic Yes you are correct. I should have been a little more clear in my question. I was wondering what type of AV receiver/ Amp . he was using. stuff like that.
@@johnofthejungle5699 oh, gotcha. Sry, I don't recollect ever seeing his setup, but as audio is what I do I can help a bit. If you're going to be doing experiments I highly recommend getting those tiny amps from amazon/ebay for roughly 10$-50$. I like the ones which are just a circuit board/no enclosure. The ones I am speaking of have very few parts and are based on the amplifier chip itself. So far ever one has had genuine chips typically from Texas Instruments. These chips are high quality & typically found in car stereos(head units). The advantage for fun/experiments is that they are very robust. They have a wide range of input voltages. They can handle short circuits and have features designed for abuse. Most can literally maintain a dead short and still survive without even a change in the sound output. One bad a$$ chip. This is NOT the same for those big receivers you find at big box stores OR any amplifier based on discrete components. I typically search for "50w amplifier" or "100w amplifier".. something like that. The last one I got has model # zk502t. For 20$ it even came with a very nice power supply :) So my formula is to use this little throw away amp for experiments. Then when the experiment is done, I will hook it up to the supposedly better setup of a higher priced amp. I must say though that these little amps seem to be better quality than the receivers touted for hifi stereo. They clearly have better signal to noise ratio(yes I measured with oscilloscope) and tend to pickup less hum from various devices like ipods / phones / guitar pedals / etc... Sometimes I will just go to Texas Instruments website & browse around for the newest amp chip. Then just search that on amazon/ebay & there will typically be a little board based on that chip for ... yup, you guessed >> 10$ - 50$ ... However, my goto for proper sound without killing the wallet is yamaha HS8(new models) & beyerdynamic DT770 pro 80ohms . I don't like the higher ohm headphones, they sound different. I've got a couple pairs & I have heard loads of them! Plus, it sux when you can only hookup your headphones to ONE amp to sound decent & they still don't sound as good as the 80s. 80ohms seems to be the magic number.
They do sound pretty amazing for what they are (I've built some - I've used Tectonic exciters, cheapo BT amp and insulation panels, its like 25eu for everything), but I wonder how is the imaging on these - multiple panels, not exactly concentric to the listener would wreck havoc in time domain.
Tuned in AGAIN and found more incredible examples of GEN / 6 7 8 and beyond panel speakers. My 2x4 acoustic panels I made still perform without any Buzz and rattling due to a surface speaker being used. I was thrilled to see the Rockville Blue tube amps lined up for this demo. I use the same 4ohm amp for mine.. Sound is just right there IF you add a sub woofer to bring in more BASS. Without.. Top end clearness that has to be heard to believe.. Tech Ingredients, Continue to waste no time with these projects.. BRAVO 🤟
@@TechIngredients Thanks for the reply and of course I'll find that video and watch it. NO telling how people will react to this concept.. Wish I could be one of those to give it a listen..
Pretty cool! This kind of system would be absolutely incredible with a large screen TV. One could build a room sized unit, and have an incredible movie experience, say Top Gun Maverick, for instance.
Hmm 🤔 a projector movie 🎥 experience with these panel speakers 🔊 would sound amazing. Consider that a challenge. I’ll create this and see what it sounds like. I usually use my 2 Krk rocket 6 speakers for my projector movies but the sound is not great but great bass tho.
I have questions about the impulse response due to the moving mass of the radiator. Also about cancellation caused by the rear wave coming from the back of the radiator bouncing off of surfaces in the surrounding room and interacting with the panel. This would typically result in some low frequency comb filtering of the longer low frequency wavelengths.
These are configured as dipoles well away from the walls of the room so cancellation effects would be very different if you were using them to say, line a room where they are very close to the walls..
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind The wavelength (λ) in Air is nearly 2.86 meters, so unless you deaden the walls or put up something to diffract the reflected sound it's almost inevitable that you're going to see the reflected wave cancel and/or reinforce the primary front output depending on the frequency.
I meant to say the wavelength is nearly 2.86 meters "at the low-pass frequency of 120 hertz", the lowest frequency handled by the panel before the signal is crossed over to the subwoofer.
Interesting speaker experiment. I was hoping you'd also be able to hit the lower frequencies without using a sub. Not happy with the leading questions to test subjects.
Jim Sim... in the late 70s I acquired a pair of Goodman polyplaner speakers possibly 50 watts . I built 2 big simple boxes and slid clamped them in the front ...the sound was the best stereo I ever had fantastic base middle and tremble I had them till I left for Thailand. My friend now has them and says he will be buried with them . I now have home made ones 3 way networks Inc in Thailand. They are much more powerful watt for watt when in a box and better base mine have an aluminum stasis supporting the magnates with coils attached to shaped styrene foam front sound surfaces ..I love the sound they have ...
I like all your videos on sound walls. In fact, reviews in Amazon selling the DML’s point to you as inspiration in making these speakers. Great job, keep up the good work!
I would love to hear those in person, in a stereo setup. (nothing against 5.1) I bet they sound similar to the Magnaplaner speakers. Those had clarity and openness that was incredible. But my favorite was the Klipsch Corner horns (Klipschorn). There is nothing quite like Dark Side of the Moon played thru a set of Klipschors! Thanks for all you do! I will have to experiment with this.
Great idea, but 50 years ago Bertagni Electrostatic Speakers (BES) were sold using the same concept. They were true dipole speakers with sound eminating 360 degrees. I owned a pair of D120s. The unique things about them, if set up correctly, was the breadth and depth of the sound stage. The D120s had 2 separate panels and a dome tweeter for high frequency. I drove them with an Accuphase P300 Amp through a C200 preamp. The key with this type of speaker is the set-up. They need to be a couple of feet from the wall and angled in toward the listening area, the sound will be very open and airy. Several audiophile friends with high end systems were in disbelief of my system with the clarity, sound stage and lack of distortion at high listening levels. I'm thinking about building a couple of these for my Atmos overheads.
@@lordjaashin ironically it's the measurement equipment that costs an arm and a leg. A Klippel costs $100K, unless you have a anechoic chamber like Techingredients has.
From a technical point of view, "friends" are not the best choice to test it out. You need a audio engineer or professionals related to audio to evaluate this. Over here, it sound terrible, specially the bass (Xonar Essence STX II, Sennheiser HD 650).
@@Scou73r "Did you not listen to the thing at the beginning where they said RUclips compression was garbage?" What this has to do with sound capture? RUclips sound compression is one thing, a bad sound capture is another. How much RUclips sound compression affect this? watch?v=Bw4uglDahEo
I'd love to see an instrumentation mic hung at the seat position an look at the frequency/phase response of the system, also THD across dynamic range. That said, another interesting video.
@@TechIngredients dont fall for these trolls, i watched all of your videos, and im a big fan of the channel. You really know what your talking about and discuss video topics way more accurately than other channels. Other videos dont give enough detail, and i learn alot more from your videos. Its obvious that you know what you are talking about, and are passionate about it. I would love to meet you to show you a few inventions i have created
Was a super cool experience, and a very unique type of sound when heard in person. Thanks for the invite, came for the tech, stayed for the pizza.
Are you the one that gets into the booth at around @13:00?
What was that first song you played?
That had to be an amazing experience!
Hope you have a good week this coming week, and may your pockets be full of sunshine!
Compared to typical studio monitors, how would you rate these panels? I would guess the audio sounds much more open but is less accurate than proper monitors. Also, was the sub correctly phased with the panels or did it sound like it had group latency issues. (Obviously, estimating this kind of details without previous knowledge of the music you're hearing will be really hard.)
I think you should use the pizza box for the speaker panel. Can't be any worse than a ceiling acoustic tile.
@@richarda3659 Ceiling acoustic tile doesn't have much harmonic resonance unlike pizza boxes. You basically would want light panels that make no sound when you knock them. As totally silent material doesn't exist you have to whatever you can find. In this video they claimed that that these materials were the best they could find.
The experiences of animals are real and matter. Their suffering is identical in nature to your own. Don't take pleasure in cruelty and violence.
I would be interested in seeing a professional audio engineer test these. See how they stack up against some of the more expensive audio monitors out there.
This is pure for home audio / studio but i agree !!! how the frequency response curve will be like
I see that it's driven with tube amps ( A+ ) lol
@@bastiaanwees7482: My LF and RF channels are driven by Grommes 260A amplifiers with NOS Gold Lion KT88's. Sweet.
Well pro audio has always been 90% in room acoustics
This would be a fantastic speaker setup for one of those omni-treadmills for VR.
In 1974 at 12 years old I discovered high end audio and it became my world, it was all I thought about. Over the years I read about unique innovations in speaker technology like this but yours are the first I've seen put to use, I'm impressed!
Thank you!
@@TechIngredients I worked in pro audio (live concert sound) for years. I'm a musician, music producer, and I own a recording studio. I know enough about audio to know that subjective tests like this one provide some information, but with no measurable criteria, it's not very useful. Plus, much of the perceived sound quality depends on the program material - how its instrumented, produced, and mastered...and you've added a sub as well.
For the record, I do appreciate what you've done here. I trust the test results you obtain that produce *_measurable_* results. From what I've seen, you're thorough, you're very knowledgeable, and I admire your step-by-step approach, such as the method you used in your second best speakers (the Voight tube) video, which I thought was exceedingly well done...brilliant in fact.
I would like to see the system response curve as measured through a spectrum analyzer with white noise input. That would provide a great deal of useful information. You could use the same test set-up to balance the sub-woofer with the panels-something that you could only have done by ear with the setup shown in the video.
It's not surprising to me that the panel system shown in this video would sound very good to all kinds of folks, and maybe even sound as good as some headphones. But headphones aren't the "gold standard". They're one way to check a mix, but I don't mix on phones, and neither do most engineers. Studio monitors with flat response, tuned to the room, are the standard.
It would be very interesting to see the results of that test on your panel system. Thanks for some great videos!
@@Vito_Tuxedo He has prior videos where he has actual measurements for these panels from a few years ago during the initial concepts. This is more like a follow up on that series.
@@Fullchaos40 Unfortunately, to make the measurements that would correlate with "pleasure from the sound reproduction" might not be possible with the current tools, so it all stays in the subjective field.
The invited folks are not likely sophisticated audiophiles, meaning it's not likely they would know the difference between a $200 and $20000 setup. At $200 one CAN build a traditional good sounding system. Also notice, the amps that are used in the video - they appear an expensive kind, so the $200 definitely applies to the speakers themselves.
Awesome project! Would love to try out those speakers. Small tip though: Your questions are very leading, thus making it quite difficult to extract common experiences from the answers of the testers. So maybe next time instead of asking "Does it sound better than a home audio system?" ask "What sound experience would you compare these speakers to?". Anways those are my two cents. It's incredible what you guys accomplished!
Also a "how do you usually listen to music?" or "what's the most sophisticated audio system/device you use regularly?" to get a baseline of who we're hearing from
Also let them choose a track that they are really familiar with. That way if it really sounds good to the person they know it's the speakers and not the song choice.
@@esp1818 I was thinking about that too, since that's what I do when I have to set up systems (not professionally), but one possible reason they did not do that is because of copyright strikes when they upload the video to RUclips.
@@KeiNovak the video could have been shot without including want of the music. It's not like we can tell what they sound like, through a RUclips video, anyways.
Objection leading
I built those following the exact steps in previous vidéos : it's been our living room sound system for about 2 years now. Here's my thoughts : Very good sound overall, definitely worth it, I've tested many setups (how many exciters on each panels, what kind, etc.) and there are a few improvements i've had to do.
Don't paint those, buy a good subwoofer, don't put the sound too loud for too long (i've done techno party with it, at some point the exciters heat and get damaged), buy large and thick xps panels for the high frequencies or they will get too shrill.
Hey can you send more information on the build you had to modify so I can build this.
Did you do a YT video ?
I am curious if they would perform better with different sized panels for different frequencies , and if the bass panels should be at a different distance from the ear than a high frequency ?
Tech Ingredients has a thermal adhesive paste you can apply to the exciters and a heat sink that will help that out.
Would the advice not to paint them pertain to just XPS or does it apply to acoustic ceiling tiles too?
If so, would it be possible to cover them with a layer of thin painted cloth above without interfering with the sound in a noticeable way?
@corentin2523 +1 for being interesting in your build info. I want to use these mostly for outdoor purposes. I live in a cul de sac where we do a lot of stuff with the neighbors. Would be nice to have easy speakers to set up and take down. Further, we do a big Halloween setup. These speakers would be great for that!
I built a pair from your first video and prefer them to regular speakers. In the single word your testers used- clarity. I have a strong preference for detailed music from banjo to string quartets so I typically stream ad free Venice Classical radio. That said if I play a CD on a nice Pioneer CD player I got from an op shop for $5 I can clearly hear the sound is better. So it ain’t the speakers! I’ve added various subs including one I paid $500 for. I’ll try your 150 Hz setting. I have decent mid priced Senheisers andHiFiman headphones and do not find the panel speakers inferior. I find running the signal through a DAC really helps. $75 KGUSS DAC, $150 SMSL Amp. Bottom line these are my favourite speakers ever and I been experimenting with audio since I was 14.
Plot twist: you are now 15. Just kidding. Discovering good audio is a journey, I'm not a huge fan of dipole speakers but they do have a certain attractive quality. I prefer the room and acoustics playing a minimal role in audio and regrettably, headphones are the most practical way to eliminate the room.
Thanks for reaffirming that this speaker design sound good. It sounds like an interesting idea to have flat speakers that can be hung on the wall. Thanks for testing this idea first and letting us know.
@@Gersberms This setup would also do the trick, as any outside reflection would be much lower volume given distance of panels vs panels -> reflection 1 -> reflection 2 -> ear. Of course, headphones do better... But yeah.
In another point of view, headphones give you utter shit soundstage. Headphones also do not give you any visceral impact/feeling from the music. So if dynamics, soundstage, imaging, etc., are of any interest to you, headphones utterly fails.
Where headphones excel is detail / resolution. For say 500$ (HP + HP amp), you can get a setup which will give you more detail/resolution than a 5000$ speaker setup. And it's just something you stick on your head and doesn't take an entire room with room treatment.
IMHO, speakers suck, because it's not just speakers. It's really speakers + room + listener. If you're not 100% in the sweet listening spot, speakers sound worse. Again, headphones; you stick em up your head and they just work 100%. Far from being the same listening experience though.
@@literalghost929 Soundstage is a real problem for headphones, a smooth 2 dB EQ bump around 3-4 kHz really helps though. I discovered a long time ago that headphones (HD 580 at the time) can easily sound way more precise than even good speakers but comfort is an issue. With speakers though, the entire environment needs to work out - it needs to be quiet, perform well acoustically, and of course the inconvenience, cost, and available space all play a role. I would love to have a dedicated listening room though!
@@Gersberms @literal ghost I think G hit the nail on the head with his first reply when he said it was his preference ... It all depends on how the individual listener prefers to consume their music and the kind they consume ... for some it's headphones, for some a listening room, still others it's with good whiskey and good company in pleasant conversation, or as the fire for a good hard workout, or some Marvin Gaye for setting the mood, or as the beat for a raucous dance party. I don't believe there is a single best way to listen.
About 38 years ago my Science Teacher built a flat panel speaker and the sound was absolutely unreal, my teacher explained how in the future every single wall or poster, like Black Sabbath can become a speaker. Needless to say it never happened but we had a whole semester studying these "Sound Walls" as they are now called.
There is a company in Finland does audio integration built in to furniture. They can use a cabinet door as a speaker for example.
what an awesome teacher man!
My phone's screen acts as a speaker pixel 3xl
@@idgaf5252 same with my LG g8. I've had it for about two years and it still kinda trips me out. Would love to get something similar to this setup in my room. You could get some killer quality sound coming down from the walls and ceiling without taking up space
There's some reasons why it is not particularly practical. Resonations are a permanent concern. And because it depends on the individual panel, you'd have to EQ every installation. Also, low frequencies are hard to produce.
I integrated drivers in the past, and it's just so dependent on where you mount it.
Dear TI, please do a video where you answer a few dozen of the great questions in the comments, in a rapid-fire fashion. There are some excellent questions here. So glad you released this update on the audio panels!
I've spent a good chunk of my life around music reproduction. I've worked with sound systems, recording studios and am a bit of an audiophile.
My stereo is probably (after my car and house) the most expensive item I own.
I would love to see how people in the music industry rate your speakers and speaker setups.
Most people can't tell Sennheiser from Heinz beans tins and friends are often favourable to your creations.
Fair enough, but don't "discount" cost.
Engineering is the art of compromise. Specifying a component that really does perform 10% better, but costs twenty times as much may make a project undoable.
@@TechIngredients totally, but many like Nic or I would certainly love to hear from HiFi enthusiasts how they sound, maybe even compared to magnetostats. Right now I don't know what to think, I'm definitely tempted to do a little project with the kids, have to dig through your videos (which I've watched!) again because you seem to have changed the recommended the relative positioning in relation to the panel once more?
thanks like always
@@OMGERRORWTF holy shit nobody is reading that!
ruclips.net/video/Eh61DzG7B-Y/видео.html
@@TechIngredients lol, not for audiophiles
for anyone interested, the drivers are Dayton Audio DAEX32QMB-4's and are about 20 bucks on amazon
Damn. So 200 bucks to replicate the setup above just for the drivers?
At that price, most people would just rather buy branded speakers.
@@noiJadisCailleach lazy learning is the future......build it and brag
@@noiJadisCailleach Where can you buy ten branded speakers for $200 total?
more likely the full range
Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 Thruster 32mm Exciter 40W 4 Ohm
What is the difference between DAEX32QMB and DAEX32EP?
I absolutely enjoy seeing how you present everything so clearly and controlled. I know this is not the topic at hand but I'm impressed with your emotional control.
As an audio/electrical/electronics engineer I will be building this amazing project! Class A amplifiers will be used for minimum distortion, I will be making measurements with Oscilloscope and my Bower mics to show how well it works. This is truly amazing. Thankyou for the inspiration! I can't truly show how impressed I am with this and this channel and all you do. You truly show your interest, intent and passion for nuclear, mechanical electrical and electronics engineering and other attributes. You remind me of myself!!!! I am so happy to see you truly devoting your life as I also have. I look forward to the video I make showing how amazing this is.
Hey how was it when you built it? What are your results?
Class A for minimum distortion? are you from 70s?
@@Timsturbs That was my thought as well, tubes produce some the most distortion found in any class of amp. Lowest distortion (at least at a feasible price) would be using class D, e.g. Hypex nCore or Purifi amps.
how was the project? did you actually managed to make it?
Thanks again for doing a video on the sound exciters. I was at loss for my surround speakers at home due to my wife claiming they're an eye sore. Since your first introduction of the foam panels,, I've since fabric wrapped two panels and hung them using translucent fishing line. Speakers are now hidden in wall art : ) Thanks a million !
What the hell is it with wives. "I don't want speakers there, I've got a plant that would fit there". They've done more to kill the stereo industry...
Picture
Should test this with a game (probably a FPS game) where the sound stage, direction, and distance volume matters a lot. Something that the headphones excel at and is often very hard to do without a lot of work with speakers set up.
I guarantee that my Sennheiser HD 590 headphones, completely trash this setup.. In clarity, accurate Bass, and 3d Soundstage... despite only having two drivers. The issue with these things, is Distortion. They rely on the type of material, and the way it flexes... but there is no way to keep it from distorting.
And the problem with distortion... is that even the smallest amount of distortions occur... it completely ruins the accuracy in a projected 3d Soundstage.
If you want speakers that produce a realistic 3d soundstage... find some old EPI 100v speakers. Get the ones that have the updated tweeter that has a plastic bezel around it. (or buy the parts from Humanspeakers, and make your own)
My EPIs completely Destroy the $3000 speakers at the local high end stereo shop. Its not even close to being a competition. Its like comparing a microwaved hotdog at home, to a perfectly cooked steak dinner... at a world class establishment.
The speakers "Vanish", and you are left with sound that is all around you... as if the Band members are playing in the room.. and you could point in 3d space where each were standing. They have an expanded sweet-spot.. to where you can almost stand in front on one speaker, and still get an amazing 3d stereo image. Even at max volume... you will have virtually no distortion... and will hear things in music, that you have never heard before. Even on pieces of music that you have listened to for several decades. This is because other drivers lack the power and precision to keep from distorting the output... and so certain sounds end up getting muffled and blended together.
@@johndough8115 I think this is more of a tech demo/learning experience. I will accept that, no, they would not stand up to your indicated hardware. I think the goal here is a 'good enough' solution. Minimal effort applied for better than average results. NOT perfect. But better than average for non audiophiles.
@@johndough8115 I knew it wouldn't be long before the AuDiOpHiLes would crop up and start with the, "jUsT gEt sOmE oLd/uSeD [insert random p/n, that no one has ever heard of, here]. They'll sound way better." LOL.
"Find some old HG7650s and hook them up to a MA-8D and you'll have -speakers- MoNiToRs that rival studio reference speakers."
Agreed a Round of C.O.D. I'd recommend, That way you would have to figure out background music V.S. Mic Audio and with game chat, That would be the true test. #SeacoastStrong #beantownbushcraft 🇺🇸☘️
@@littlejackalo5326 Exactly. Hey this DIY $200 bucks thing is nothing compared to my $9000 setup. lmao
Thank you for inspiring a whole new movement in audio playback philosophy. I've followed your progression and built a variety of driver and panel combinations. I settled on .625 in thick high grade birch marine plywood. Installed 1 each 2'x2' and 1 each 2'x4' panel per side. The panels hung one over the other, linked by fine elastic cord through small holes drilled near the corners of each, 1' from the wall by shelving brackets. I have excellent response from mounting 2 of the EX32EP2-4 exciters per 2'x2' panel in series. For the 2-2'x4' I installed 1 each of the BST-2 Tactile Bass Shakers...yes, bass shakers. Spray painted front side of all 4 panels with truck bed coating leaving the back side natural. Driving the 4 panels with a Lepai Bluetooth stereo amp with 45w/ch into 4 outputs. For equalization I found the Timpano TPT-EQ7 handy because it has an adjustable Subwoofer output for augmenting tones below 50hz, with a 12" RCF powered unit. My fellow musicians and friends are amazed by the lively tactile experience across the entire perceivable audio spectrum. I like to listen with my back to them with the video display in front of me. Very much like movie theater/headphone presentation. Fun stuff for sure!
Hey bro, can you share you socials here, want to see how you setup looks like
Did you ever do a write up on a blog or forum about this? I would like to see more of this?
Electr magnétique midel pkease name constructeur thanjs
I made 2 of these speakers out of pink insulation foam and added a free subwoofer I found in by the dumpster and they sound pretty good! I didn't realize I could use the dense acoustic ceiling tiles to get those low frequencies but I may do that to round out the frequency spectrum!
I made the acoustic ceiling tile version, 1/2 full size tile vertically per speaker with the "extra bass" exciters. Still no bass. I wouldn't bother revising your setup.
120hz is not really low though. Just use a sub
@@FSXgta 120hz is something that 4" midrange driver can do in any enclosure that isn't to big.
I love you so much just for drilling into so many young skulls the idea that YOU CAN build something, and you can build something BETTER than the sales margin filled plastic garbage you'd otherwise buy without thinking. I don't have an exact estimate but the world is going to be around 40% to 50% better because of examples like yours. The solution to our every common problem is trying and doing. Keep it up and thank you so much.
exactly lets build the world we want to habitate
Yes I have just built a valve amplifier. Really looking forward to firing her up. I think I will build these speakers to go with it.
As someone in my 50's, I can certainly agree with you. So much these days based on the Bic lighter mentality. I've got an expensive speaker system that's about 12 years old and the manufacturer doesn't even have parts support for them anymore. I think it's ridiculous. Good thing there's places like Parts Express to try and solve some of these issues. That and I'm technically inclined enough to fix my own amps etc.
I am currently running my full surround rear and atmos system on these dml speakers. I love them. Crystal clear and inexpensive. Light weight to hang. They aren't the prettiest but totally functional. I haven't tried front stage yet due to not having an acoustically transparent screen yet.
Love the Project.
Inspired by the previous video, I was looking into using DML-Style speakers to power my living room. We experimented with different available materials in Europe. However, we noticed that while we can work around frequency problems with DSPs, we definitely need a high tweeter covering 6.5+ khz. Same goes for base < 150 hz.
More problematic was that with very dense music the clarity is lacking. Its fine with classical solo instruments (Cellos and mid-to-lower woodwinds like Clarinets where amazing) + Radio. But romantic orchestras, hard rock and metal does distort too much. We could measure some of this with REW, so it was not subjective. We evaluated it as two classical trained musicians. Sadly, It was not good enough to be deployed. Now going back to a closed, DSP driven variant. I liked the idea of room layouts DML would open.
Yeah I used REW and a MiniDSP for my setup. There was a pretty decent amount of boost around 7k and up like you say, and a huge amount of cut in the upper-mids. The 2ft by 4ft didn't get low enough, so my crossover point has to be crazy high, like nearly 200Hz. Which is high enough that you can hear the position of the subwoofer. My living room is a rather "live" setting, but in a better setting, I would be curious how precise the sound stage is.
One thing it is awesome at is projection. They have very little falloff, so they are good for filling a house or large room. And once adjusted, they sound FAR better than what you would expect from something like this.
This is a common problem with broadband speakers, the lower frequencies cause a doppler effect o the higher ones. It's called intermodulation and basiclally unavoidable. One of the reasons why realistic sounding speakers need 2 or 3 drivers for what you call dense music.
yep although really fun to play with and insane cheap of course. it wont be beating regular speakers or planar magnetics etc. still a really nice novelty and ejoyable also for kids to make stuff them self.
I love it. I do a lot of remodelling, and almost never see any emphasis in peoples audio.
Even if these don't measure super well, the fact that it is affordable and giving people a new or renewed enjoyment of music is a great thing.
Some audio snobs might raise their nose at such a set up, but the testers' smiles says it all.
if you wanted the "no speakers" look, planting these into a false ceiling would be a breeze.
it might be capable of some volume if all the ceiling tiles were glued in place (silicone?) to eliminate any rattling.
@@modelnutty6503 well, it wouldn't sound good because the tiles would absorb a particular spectrum of the sound, it would sound muffled for sure. Unless you substituted some acoustic fabric for the tiles... That might be an option.
Dear Mr. Main Presenter, I am in awe of you. The thought and detail you put into your projects is just amazing. Like in this video, you even made a base to hold the video tripod on your speaker scaffolding. If you were a teacher, you would be the most popular one in the school, and your class would fill up in the first 5 minutes of registration. It’s really frustrating for me, waiting for your next video to drop, having seen all of them. Would like to see more on rockets and drones. Your #1 fan, Me
Nice that you noticed that. We talked about how to get that particular angle.
I love how Alex runs/jogs everywhere. I was like this (many years ago). Ahh to be young again... Awesome idea with these speakers. It would be interesting to set up a true home theatre surround sound system in a living room with these. I imagine they would sound quite a bit better than any of the theatres I've been to. All the ones around here the audio is really lacking.
Thanks to your original video a few years ago, I got badly addicted to DML speakers and actively followed some of the threads on the audiophile forums testing and evaluating designs. I like you, fortunately had access to wide range of materials to run my own (subjective) tests on and came to a few conclusions:
1) Pick repeatable tracks. Mine are: "Adagio for Strings" (low pitch Cello) , "Bohemian Rhapsody" (rock, electric guitar & high pitched vocals), "Refined Enlightenment" (high pitch violins), Romanza (Romance Anónimo, Spanish guitar), Above & Beyond - Alchemy (electronic house with vocals)
2) Every material I tried failed on one of those tracks, clarity, bass, vocals etc etc. But a few had standout areas, the answer was a combination of materials.
3) My personal favourite is a canvas picture frame, stretched over a wood frame, tightened with a watered down PVA glue wash and on the rear a 0.8mm plywood veneer sheet PVA glued to the back of the canvas. The exciter was mounted on a 3mm plywood disk glued to the veneer at 50/50 and 2/3rds.
The canvas frame gives a love warm bass, and the plywood veneer and discs damp any unpleasant over vibration whilst preserving clarity.
I am absolutely convinced, there is no "one best" single material for best sound reproduction, you need a mix of materials, then they easily beat anything else I have heard.
I would assume that some.materials would favor different frequencies so you would/could use multiple materials for each channel...
Neil, do you share your build and testing experiences on a blog or forum? I have been thinking about building a theater room in a 10'x20' space. Outfitting the entire room with these type speakers because of the uniqueness and the possibility of building it with my children as the speaker builds are simple enough and safe enough. I can't quite picture what you described in 3) with confidence but I am really interested to know more. I think it would be something really special that my children would be able to claim the theater build when they have friends over to watch Frozen or Cars. :)
@@marcgenre5563 Apologies, it appears RUclips in its' wisdom, won't let me post links to the information you need, so re-posting without links and trying to offer "pointers" :(
The honest answer is everything I have learned except through my own experimentation is by standing on the shoulders of others! I fanatically read the DiyAudio forum thread which currently stands at almost 300 pages of discussions and others experiments. The specific page starts the discussion of the canvas panels I mentioned starts at page 221, search for diyaudio - "a-study-of-dmls-as-a-full-range-speaker."
As for what I described, (sorry again no link) it is basically a 25cm x 30cm (or bigger!) blank artists canvas picture frame from Amazon with a wash of 50:50 PVA glue on the front to tighten the canvas and a sheet of 0.8mm the plywood glued with PVA to the rear of the canvas. I then use a Dayton Audio DAEX32EP-4 exciter fixed to the rear and a small Fosi Audio bluetooth amp (BT10A) to play through for experiments.
The basics are wonderfully simple and fascinating to play around with, and I'd say lots of fun for children and especially with some science thrown in!
BTW, When gluing the plywood sheet to the rear of the canvas, you must make sure the plywood is smaller than the canvas so there is a gap between the plywood edge and the canvas wood frame (I like 10-15mm), and also ensure the plywood is thoroughly stuck to the canvas, especially around the plywood edges otherwise you get unpleasant vibrations at certain frequencies as the plywood can't damp the canvas and they collide with each other.
The principle broadly, seems to be about how quickly the vibrations spread across each material, and how quickly each material can respond to those vibrations and so create pressure waves in the air.
@@NeilStansbury Great info and thanks for the reply. I have already gone to the site and page in the forum and will start digging in to see what is possible and realistically achievable by the kids and myself. I think I once found some DIY amplifier kits that seemed to be something not overly complicated. I will dig around for something like that too. The more I can involve the kids the better, I have learned to never underestimate what my kids are capable of doing so the sky is the limit even if the budget has to stay close to the ground. 😀
It's fun to watch these videos again. I built a pair with acoustic ceiling tiles, painted them black with spray paint, and placed two drivers on each panel in series configuration, one in the direct center and one at the 2/5ths 3/5ths spacing.
They sound great! They compliment my 2 towers, a center channel and subwoofer stereo system, and have a "gluing" effect as i call it. Without them on, you can tell where the sound is directionally coming from. With them on, it's clean, non-directional, room filling sound!
The best part is that because it's omni-directional, you dont need to turn it up loudly to cleanly hear your material, but can also have conversations in the same room.
You are off the charts with your DIY builds! You really get into science of sound, as well as sometimes, it just sounds good. Love it!
As an inventor of DMP drivers (see my patents), I found that the key was the BML force of the driver. The sound is truly immersive, for some environments much better than conventional speakers i.e. restaurants, offices, open space. However, I do not believe these will ever produce true high fidelity sound because of the phase incoherence in the radiation source.
DMP? BML?
Try Borosilicate GLASS panels as wall-based speakers --- The Boron is not only a high temperature stabilizer within the silica but also acts as a microscopic dampener. You could probably also use automotive safety glass panels which have polyethylene sheets embedded in-between the multiple layers of glass to ALSO act as dampeners.
For high frequencies (i.e. wall based tweeters) and super-low bass (below 100 Hz) maybe something like a Sapphire Sheet or hard ceramic might work better. A possible suggestion for comb effects and signal multi-path or unwanted signal cancellation/reduction is a FLUID such as water or even mineral oil sandwiched between sheets of fibreboard, glass or ceramic to act as an intermediate absorber. In some cases a fluid lighter than water such as an alcohol (i.e. ethyl or methyl alcohol) or a hydrocarbon (i.e. hydraulic fluid or Engine Oil) could work to dampen a speaker while still allowing certain frequencies to emit or pass-through.
Somebody needs to spend time on an acoustic raytrace application to check out HOW audio waves will behave WITHIN, on the surface of and outside of these types of wallboard speakers. Four AMD GPU graphics cards combined together to create a virtual supercomputer in an x499 motherboard filled to the brim with lots of system RAM memory and lots of disk space could do this simulation to OPTIMIZE the fibreboard or glass/ceramic board construction and placement within less than a month!
You can even use common open source optical ray tracing and/or computational fluid dynamics software to convert fluid movement into an acoustic waves simulation what would create an optimized construction and materials survey of these types of speakers!
Just a suggestion!
The above ideas are now free and open source under GPL-3 Licence terms - June 19, 2022!
V
@@StarGateSG7 whats with the CAPS you TWERP
@@toseltreps1101 This TWERP has 30+ years in Aerospace doing 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k video cinematography/editing PLUS designing and coding custom 10,000 fps fractal video and audio compression systems WITH 65,000 objects per frame 2D-XY and 3D-XY SOBEL/CANNY edge detection for automated vector conversion and fully automatic object recognition, tracking, targeting and fire control!
Me thinks THIS TWERP might know what I am talking about even WITH THE ALL-CAPS!
ALL-CAPS! They're Good Fer Ya Cuz They Got Electrolytes!
V
@@StarGateSG7 How can one be so full of themselfs? All that knowledge, but no social skills to communicate them
This was such a wonderful video! Very informative and learned quite a bit of things!
Also, the hospitality for others, providing pizza, a disco party, and even the small stuff "Let's get you something to eat" is beautiful. Made me smile a lot because I do adore such compassion for others as such. Continue being the great man you are :) And thank you all for what you and your team do.
Living in a speaker ... what could beat this?!
Great work TI !
Excellent video! I am hoping for a part 2 for any new results for fitting this to my living room dimensions. I'm willing to get rid of all my wife's crap in their and panel all the walls with speakers if necessary. And obviously that will be necessary.
Be aware that as these are bipolar speakers they need to be placed well away from walls.
They shouldn't be legal... they should be "not illegal"! I watch so many amazing people on RUclips, but I am more frequently blown away by you and your style of life than anyone else. An amazing man using his amazing brain for awesome things, all while teaching.
I'll never get tired of this channel. Always a pleasure to watch. Later this year I want to build these speakers, seems like a fun, easy and useful project.
Couldn't agree more!
Out of curiosity, run a long slow sine sweep of one of those polystrene panels from 100 Hz to 20,000 Hz, and have a look at the Lissajous curve plotting the output against the input. I have a feeling you'll find a frequency that is a garbled mess of a pattern (but still stable) instead of the ellipse you might expect.
Seconded. And then...
Put the microphone inside the amplifier's negative feedback loop, to make the amp drive the output signal to make the panel/cone more accurately match the input signal. ie: make the normally-passive air-displacement surface, an active part of the amp's negative-feedback loop.
If I'm remembering correctly, they did a significant amount of this exact type is testing in their earlier videos on this type of speaker a couple years back.
I also know big audio words and want to contribute to this conversation desperately! Bandpass filter! MIDI input! uhm... and how about some bell curve? yeah that's right!
@@maranathashalom9402 yeah and some more cow bell too,,lol
I can write words, too.
Bode plot.
Excellent work, gentlemen. Your son Alex did fantastic work making sure the project ran smoothly. It's definitely a Proud Dad Moment, in my book. Congratulations you guys.
I built a pair made from pink foam board at Home Depot and some exciters from parts express… absolutely awesome 👏
I use a Nobound miniature 50 watt amplifier. The sound is excellent.
My Martin Logans are jealous.
Building a massive public art installation using a similar version of your panels. You two are inspiring keep it up. Glad to see you all back in action!
:) i wanted to do that for years with my planar magnetic DIY speakers.. walls of real planar magnetic speaker.. still waiting for an artist that want to make something like that with me haha
i love this channel so much. i cannot fathom how you don't have millions more subscribers.
you've taught me, and my children, soooo many things.
Thanks!
That's far more important than a sterile number.
Should they be legal? Of course not! There should be an entire department of government devoted to the licensing and regulation of speakers. What a question!
Careful...you know they want that.
Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Speakers
They already took the automatic speakers in 1934, and they're coming after the large, semiautomatic speakers now. Soon, they will get those and will then come after the bolt-action and single-shot speakers. Next, we will lose the small speakers which will fit in your hand. They won't stop until they get all of our speakers.
Don't worry, though -- they will still have THEIR speakers!
@@jeremiahbullfrog9288 I read sarcasm, what in Hitler's name is going on in here??
@@edwatts9890 it's still legal to make speakers at home..
Keep fighting the good fight against speaker control.
@Tech Ingredients Wiring the drivers in series is a trick done in commercial speakers to improve the performance.
It causes Mechanical resonance peaks to cause an increase in electrical impedance which reduces the output of the other driver. This has the effect of smoothing out resonance peaks to some degree. Since this design of speaker has a lot of (smaller) peaks, having the two separate panels of different materials (therefore different resonances) in series helps them smooth out each other.
It might even help to position the drivers slightly different within each pair of speakers (but as with everything to do with speakers, the proof of the pudding is in the eating).
Please do a waterfall graph for these speakers.
Good point and I should have mentioned that.
you know a waterfall wont look to nicely on resonating panels :)
I made a set of these and hung them in my parents living room from the ceiling over the chair and couch and placed a sub in the corner. set up in parallel driven by a small Fossi amp off Amazon and they love it. Given the thin nature of the panels they take up very little space and flood the entire room with sound. For less than $350 canadian dollars I built and wired the entire system. Thank you Tech Ingredients! Keep up the great work!
This has to be one of the coolest audio projects I've ever seen. Especially one like this that can be duplicated by just about anyone. Thank You!
You are like the new Edison. 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. Thank you for keeping my brain cells active.
I hope he's not perspirating too much, he should probably try an anti-perspirant deodorant if he is.
A very long-awaited update! I made such panels from acrylic glass here in Ukraine, and the totally substituted my desktop speaker for more than a year now! Amazing! Please, more experiments with these!
I do enjoy this channel so much so I was happy to see this interesting approach using the 5.1 multiple driver technique in a smaller listening space where presumably being close to the panels you don't have to drive them very hard to get sufficient output . I have tried several of the parts express exciter units on both the polystyrene panels - 2X2 and thin 1/4 inch plywood 4X4 and 2X2. I thought the wood would be closer to tone a musical instrument than the plastic panel and it was. Acoustic guitars were quite good. BTW the results from mounting one of these exciters on a guitar it self is amazing. While I am sure the bass response on the larger panels is better than smaller ones the downside is that they resonate - plunk your finger on the panel and if you hear it ring and decay even a little, it will do it during excitation or musical input at various multiples of the resonant frequency's. Its frankly more than a little disconcerting and very noticeable at moderate volumes. More inert materials like ceiling tiles that dampen resonances or applying some kind of dampening material to the panel will also help with the resonances but ultimately also dampens all the frequency's making the output more inefficient. There is a French company what claims to have built speakers and tuned them to dampen all the resonances ( they also use tone wood, specific panel suspension and make musical instruments so maybe they know how ) but the speakers are stupid expensive which is not what anyone who watches this channel would pay for. I have found that crossing panels over at higher frequency's does reduce this resonance effect and makes it more listenable. I have also found that high frequency response can be quite peaky and does not quite reach the sparkle you would want from a good speaker. Suggest anyone who wants to try this get REW software ( free ) and a measurement microphone from parts express so you can run frequency sweeps to see the response and resonances. So to build a really good system capable of reproducing full range and taking advantage of the DML dipole characteristics - I suggest a large woofer in a open baffle cabinet - H frame, a DML radiator for the midrange and upper frequencies and a separate ribbon tweeter to pick up the sparkle. it is possible to tune them using active crossovers and separate amplifiers that are not expensive. If you would like to discuss the design you may contact me here - RBEK15@msn.com. My total parts cost for my these speakers is less than $500 including amplification . And the sound quality? 10X that - at least.
Great comment, very cool Rich.
Thank you for for comment
I was thinking ribbon tweeters & a good sub would be a good idea. I might have a new project in mind now 😅
The super light weight coupled with with large surface area is entirely different than conventional speakers. I agree, would love to see a sound frequency response curve.
ceiling tiles are far from lightweight... I'm thinking balsa wood panels wrapped in a single layer of fiberglass or maybe just a coating of "structural" paint such as epoxy would be good... The boron-silicate glass mentioned above makes a lot of sense , making and shaping would realistically have to be done at time of manufacture when still molten , it's just the old "pyrex" formula for glass
@@briantracy1324 a graphene induced carbon fiber plate sandwiched with a damping layer would probably be optimal
I remember seeing conceptually the same type of drivers, "turn any panel into a speaker!", but it was just a puny driver with an aux chord. Then i saw your first video on the subject some years ago, and now this one. Thanks for the content!!
Great to see these DMLs growing! Please go in-depth with these - standardized measurements, comparison with commercial speakers, proper A/B testing in stereo setup, and get a pro audio engineer to analyze them if you can. It doesn't matter if they don't stack up as you might expect, we all think you already did a fantastic job in selecting materials and constructing them, any shortcomings will only point to possible improvements.
Great channel, great work, great presenter!
I think they did that in a previous video
@@HDefectus
Yes they did.
Diffrent material and different shapes, sizes.
I can imagine frequency response being accurate around the 800 and 10,000hz range with the ceiling tiles and about the 13,000hz range with the other panels. Surrounded in such a small area makes listeners' reception less likely to be absorbed by the tiles before being heard. Think I'll order some of the drivers for experimenting in my 30x30 bedroom.wish me luck😊
You can grab a cheap calibrated mic, measure the frequency response with REW and make a good EQ to load into equalizerAPO (windows) or a miniDSP. Makes it sound soooo much better.
eh just use a carbon fiber panel for the highs would have to find a way to deaden it a little though maybe rubber bushed weights at certain spots?
You actually can get extended highs to 20kHz. This was done with the epoxy stiffening under the driver.
@@stephensaint-vincent8680 will there tend to be a resonant frequency related to the physical dimension of the panel?
They won't be accurate above 5khz at all. They got to much surface area and directivity will happen. I can eq my 18" subwoofer to play to 5khz but it won't sound good.
A friend and I stumbled on some speakers like this from Magnepan called Magneplanars in the mid-70's. They were really nice. I suspect their price was a factor in them not becoming more widely accepted. I see that they are still out there online.
I had a costomer that hand made speakers, he even wound his own voice coils. He would come to your house and measure the diminsions of the room where the speakers were to be placed, he would prick thev walls with some sort of tool that measures humidity and other factors, simply write down everything and build speakers based off of all his information. His speakers were made from accordian paper and used custom Alinco magnets that were specially manufactured for him.
Audio acustics is an infinite science, a very interesting subject to say the least!.
Looked up accordian paper and all I’m getting is a bunch of origami looking pieces of folder paper. Can you please explain what you are talking about?
I agree, there is so much factors going into a sound wave that it becomes a true art to manipulate them in just the right way. If you think about it a sound wave has 5 dimensions to it 3 spacial, one amplitude and a spectrum/wavelength to balance. If you now factor in that every part of the spectrum represents a vastly different behavior of the wave and you need to find the right compromise it becomes very complex very quickly.
Now that I think about it you even have a 6th factor in play being the directional vector of the wave.
And then our ears and brain muck it all up in unpredictable ways... 😵💫
@@landondavid5773 Cut the edge of your average Amazon Box, or other type of brown packing box, and you will see an accordion fold sandwiched between the upper and lower layers of a box panel. The triangles between the flats.
Designing speakers you can start with the science and put all we know into it and then you go black magic...
Only partly joking as it seems no matter how much research is put into sound and speaker construction there's still something we lack. And that's before you get to the perception bias that everyone have. Most of us will, if given the choice, select a speaker setup that add a "warm" tone to the sound over a speaker setup that is measurably more accurate and neutral. The warmer sound comforts us while the more neutral sound can be more demanding and won't mask any harsh transients. I'm not going to judge and say one is sounding better than the other, because you are entitled to choose what sounds better to you. But what is touted as better isn't always what sounds more natural. It's like with food. Some times we don't want natural. Some times we want the familiar taste of highly processed food. Same with sound. The harsh sound of reality isn't as comforting as the warm smooth sound you get from a warm amp with glowing tubes and some tasty high end speakers.
Having random strangers test these is one thing but having audio engineers test would be another. Also you'd have to not be afraid of copyright strikes. Let them listen to the songs they know/want. I believe the speakers work well but aren't going to beat out decent headphones or bookshelf speakers.
Agreed - and to expand a little on what you say, audio engineers will use what they call 'reference tracks' - which they know inside out - and these represent the constant where the equipment, the acoustic space, air humidity etc. are the variables. Each engineer should be invited to bring their own reference tracks - then you'd have some interesting conversations.
Just from my iPad Pro, I can tell the sound is impressive. It definitely has a depth you don't hear in other videos, even music ones.
@@julian.morgan dude. He's not trying to submit these speakers for the title of the best, most accurate, speakers ever made. He's trying to show that $25 speakers sound pretty good. Nothing more, nothing less.
I would tend to agree, but who is the target audience of the video? It's a damn cool tech demo which demonstrates tinkering with electronics and then tickle your brain with sound waves. I'd love to sit with a couple of the Supertramp tracks I've listened to my whole life. I might build me a couple of these critters to see for myself. :)
They have to be afraid of copyright strikes. Do you know nothing about RUclips? They could still let the people listen to their own music, but you would still have to play the copyright free stuff over it and make a note that it wasn't the same thing they were listening to.
I can really see this being useful for places like yoga studios. They could line the walls with a few *dozen* sets, then play back B-Format audio of various relaxing locales to really place their clients in a mountain meadow/on a quiet beach/etc.
TECH: If you build a slightly larger setup to fit a king sized bed and add sound deadening circuitry to feed the amp instead (hacked from sound deadening headphones or elsewhere) you would have the ultimate quiet sleeping environment!
Cool video :)
It better work both ways so nobody can hear my guest moaning...
@@jjhack3r I think you mean groaning…it’s the sound of eyes rolling
You screw your guest's?????? Lol
"We've done a large number of videos on sound." Yes, in fact that's how I found you. First video I ever watched was the building of those really cool panels.
I am completely envious of our presenters level of education. I am greatfull to have stumbled across such refreshing content. Brilliant!
It might be more meaningful if you could offer the listeners two options, such as the ability to switch to a standard pair of monitors.
Some pretty crummy traditional speakers with a lot of DPS work to level out the frequency response can sound fairly decent in an otherwise more natural environment, like an office. There are some brands (*cough*Bose*cough*) that I think are known for this.
I imagine anything that is non-garbage tier will sound "good" to someone off the street. Most people are probably going to be quite fine with an $80 2.1 computer speaker setup in a near field environment like that, and without anything to compare, may think it sounds good to them. That's not necessarily a good or bad result.
The warehouse environment is very unnatural and unusual, so I'm not suggesting people listen to computer speakers sitting in the middle of a warehouse without any panels around them, then compare to your panels that just happen to be active themselves, as I think the damping factor is the biggest thing at play due to the unusual environment you've chosen.
I still would worry about modes in your material despite damping effect of the material itself since the further out you get from the driver the less coupling there is due to material flex, leading to ringing and phase shift. Something I imagine the average listener will not notice unless it is quite bad and probably measurable.
I still use my older 301s for music in my office, they work fine for most things, just have to realize their sweet spots.
I think you missed the point and look very silly. By the way what is DPS? Need I say more :)
@@mariemccann5895 What point did I miss and why do I look silly? Please explain.
Yes, I transposed two letters, and meant DSP.
@@mariemccann5895 Still waiting on a response.
I've made these type of speakers for my office and they're awesome!
Hahaha!! It would be so cute to build some mini-hangers to scale and sort of have them on desk like a Newtons cradle
I setup two of these panels for my living room home entertainment system. The panels are paper faced foam board. I have them hanging either side of my TV. I run a subwoofer for the bass and i think it sounds really good. My friend came over recently who is musician and was so impressed that he ordered some for himself. Are they top-quality studio monitors in a tuned studio space? No, but for the price, it is near impossible to beat.
I'm curious about the panels on the left and right channel directly facing each-other. Seems like this could cause some unwanted frequency cancelling. I think most audio is mixed assuming that the left and right channel are in front of you. I would be really curious to hear what it sounds like with 5 panels directly in front of you. 2 left, 1 center, 2 right. Repeat for the rear. Seems like the soundstage would be massive. I love these audio projects you do, thanks for all the info!
DML are not cancelling themself because the modal resonance.
I clearly remember subscribing at 25000 subscriber's , and was shocked how good the videos were , I always knew it would take long to reach 1 million subscribers. Congratulations on your growth 👏 ✨️ 🙌 💛
I love these videos because this guy talks at such a steady pace I feel like hes about to show me some wild experiment and then most of the time he ends up doing just that. the handheld cam always gives it a doc brown feel.
Many long years ago we played with driving sheets of glass and the results were interesting to say the least. The acoustic characteristics varied with time. Fresh glass sounded very different to glass a couple of years old. Also if the speakers weren’t used for a few weeks, they’d need to be driven hard for a few hours to return to the same state they’d been before they were rested.
The tweeters were fascinating: Two piezo transducers glued to opposite sides of a Ping-Pong ball. The 360° dispersion created brilliant sound-stage. Unfortunately, every so often one of the piezo devices would explode and so the tweeter would need to be replaced.
That's interesting because we usually think of glass as a rather stable material but in fact it is a plastic or high viscosity liquid.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind Glass is better thought of as an amorphous solid. While it’s often referred to as a high viscosity liquid there’s a lack of empirical evidence for this on human time-scales. Clearly we were experiencing the effect of changes to local structure we had no way of determining what they were and even today I couldn’t find anything relevant in an admittedly cursory lit search. The chap who was responsible for exploring these novel acoustic approaches reverted to using more conventional drivers and techniques. Sadly he became quite hostile when I purchased my current speakers from someone he doesn’t approve. So it goes...
Would really like to know more about the rest of the setup, amps used, etc. Teasing the idea of making a gaming/theater/vr room in a spare room and want to test these out for myself.
Likewise
Me aswell
How they sound up against a wall would be interesting as that is probably how most people would have them at home.
@@Cyba_IT yeah, wonder if you'd need to add damping material between wall and panel speaker.
A work mate from my friend used to custom build HiFi amps (really beautiful, with a custom PCB where everything was laid out in circles), and also flat panel speakers. He used some plastic board type of material that reminded me of these white, slightly translucent double-pane boards with internal bridges every ~5mm or so. He mounted them into racks, varying from picture frame size to 2.3m high and ~60cm wide free standing versions. When we visited his home, we got an amazing demo of them in conjunction with his also custom built massive subwoofers. Quite an experience! Mind you, this was also over 20 years ago by now!
Cool setup, I need to get around to making some and testing them in our anechoic chamber. I'm curious what their directionality is like and if you could optimize a 3d shape to counter modes on the panel.
Constructive criticism intended. To really get a good comparison an A/B would be cool to see. Also doing it as 5.1 to compare to their existing headphones or at home stuff it is a hard comparison to draw because most people don't listen to music in 5.1, and by up mixing you will inherently get better feedback due to how we perceptually weight spatialization of audio psychoacousticly. Head Acoustics released some cool data on this.
Hey
I'm just thinking out loud here but if you have an anechoic chamber to use, maybe do the A/B yourself. Why not use some of the other individuals in ''our'' to do a better test?
Directionality is the inverse of a normal diaphragm speaker. The low end is dipole in character, dictated by the size of the panel.
10 months later, did you do the tests? How did it go? :3
This is awesome! Would love to hear it. Have you experimented with having the front L & R panels angled in like traditional studio monitors? This would help with phantom center imaging from stereo information routed to those speakers. When mixing for 5.1 or atmos, most stereo tracks don’t output the mono information to the center channel. In audio for picture typically music is mixed to front L & R, and center channel is saved for movie dialogue. Upmixing stereo audio to 5.1 might be different though, not sure if in that process the mono information gets routed to the center channel or not.
Great work! Pumped to see if you make an atmos version
First time on this channel and I love how natural the presentation is
Welcome!
“Sonarworks SoundID Reference Measurement Microphone” is a microphone that when paired with the Sonarworks software uses an EQ to make a completely or close to as flat as possible frequency range. I think if you used this microphone which is commonly used in professional mastering studios calibration for music production it would give you amazing results and insight into where frequencies are building up. It would also be interesting if you could find a mastering engineer locally that would be willing to come sit in the box with a trained ear and tell you if this could be a substitute for studio monitors
How would you compare sonarworks to REW ? Have you tried REW ?
A calibrated measurement mic is not a recording or tracking mic. It will work of course and likely sound clean and critical but not what it is really designed for. 20-20k flat is not always a good thing.
@@mikeiver This mic is only intended for calibrating the Sonarworks software. It has a gyro inside and is why this spastic mic is useful for calibration. Flat is the goal and why mixing studios spend millions to get a flat sound
@@mikeiver Well, yeah. A measurement mic is for measurement and only that. It is good you mentioned that in case someone might think they are for recordings.
I was wondering if you had tried REW ? and could compare it to sonarworks. REW is a huge package. It takes some time to learn, but there is a lot of info and seems to be versatile for many uses. I've used REW for much more than room measurement. I've used it to >> dial in crossovers ; test signal to noise ratio's of amps/synths/drum machiens/etc... ; test speakers themselves. like the individual speakers from a 3 way ; adjusting port size of speaker enclosures ; and of course acoustic treatment of studio recording spaces. It helps you pinpoint where to put the foam & even can show what happens when you put chairs in the room. It's pretty cool !!
@@RyLeedepressed mixing studios don't spend millions getting to flat. Who told you that? Again, you can tweak a space and deal with room anomalies, install base traps and wall, floor, and ceiling treatments, and get the hot seat to sound really good fairly easily. But in the end the engineers learn the room and the speakers they are monitoring on. There are few "magic rooms". But we are off subject here.
Seems really interesting, but wouldn't a pentagon shape be more optimal for the enclosure than a square shape (for sound immersion and avoiding comb filtering, etc)?
Dunno about a pentagon specifically, but I'd think there are better shapes, yeah. Maybe a circle/ellipse, or something asymmetric?
I'd be interested in seeing a comparative assessment of how panel shape affects the experience. Hopefully the team looks into manifesting such an overview.
Square and rectangles work the best. There are other videos out there doing this same thing only with more information.
@@jeffreycollins7297 channel names?
Like a cone
U R the Words BEST PRESENTER, most Eloquent and Knowledgeable. BRAVO!!! 👏👏👏🙏
I remember squinting my eyes when in the second tutorial video you brought out acoustic ceiling tiles and said they work well as speakers. I thought to myself: aren't these made to absorb sound rather than produce it? It's very interesting that they do double duty in this setup. I'm tempted to make a set of these, maybe two channels is enough, and put them up in my bedroom to use them at low volume, because in my experience larger speakers sound better even at low volume. And besides, they look cool! Thanks for the episode.
2 channel would definitely work with this style of speaker.
I also agree, large speakers not being driven hard sound way better than smaller speakers that are closer to their threshold.
It's like how black surfaces aren't just good at absorbing heat, they're also good at emitting it. Being strongly coupled in one direction makes it strongly coupled in the other direction.
I want to see 1000 dollar version on this setup and also how would a wall size subwoofer sound like, great video!
I just want to say how much I appreciate you, your time, your experience, and knowledge. It's not easy to find high-end information that is interesting and applicable. I could go on ad infinitum.
I came across your channel when my AC went out last week just when Alabama started a brutal heat wave. I'm tired of the 400 dollar service calls that just end in them saying you need a $6000 replacement. NO!! I Need salt water and pvc!! LOL.
If I can recommend future videos, it would be more along the lines of thermal management around graphene and heat pipes.
MORE MORE MORE!!
Love this channel and the content you put out. Just wondering, for the purposes of testing, since audio people like and reference equipment to specific piece/s of music they like, you could test the speakers with their choice of music and so long as it is not included and broadcast in your videos, then copyright isn't an issue. That way, with familiar music, people are probably better able to discern differences between their existing equipment vs new.
The experiment was rigged with pizza I don't believe it. Y'all always surprise me with these great projects! Good job guys, I love this channel so much
Yeah, the pizza thing skewed the results. I’d say anything for free pizza…🥹
this is so cool , this guy was my mentor. i built a pair after his first video , they sound fantastic , but they do need a sub for the full effect .
Tech Ingredients has the best videos
For real, call Linus (ltt) tell him you have a video idea for an upgrade to his home theater system
1. How much free space is needed behind before it notable affect the sound?
2. The sound absorption panels, do they release some carcinogens substance?
3. As a next speaker project, could you do a compact push-pull subwoofer, like the brand Sunfire (my builds sounded terrible)?
I built these based on their previous video, and did some testing of #1. I needed at least 8", and preferably 10"-12" of space between each ceiling tile and the wall behind them. If they are too close to the wall the sound becomes very thin.
@@thomastapen39 Have you tried using sound absorbent material behind the speakers? I'm wondering if that would allow the panels to be closer to the walls as well as reduce sound transmission to other rooms.
@@thomastapen39 Thanks!
I guess this solution is not the best choice when you want speakers hidden.
@@Hamish_A No I haven't, but sounds like an interesting thought to me. I just hang mine off a shelf I built which holds them about 10" from the wall.
This was super interesting; I didn't realize you could use materials like ceiling tiles to act as speakers. I have a suggestion for a follow-on video & possible commercial application; I had the idea immediately upon seeing these... noise-cancelling panels / walls.
I wanted to try & make such a system when I lived in the city & had a few neighbors in nearby buildings that would play extremely loud music all night long, but I didn't have the tools or time or knowledge to pursue it at the time. I feel like these ceiling tiles / other flat panels would make an ideal solution, where noise is coming in through a wall, a sensitive mic picks it up, & plays the inverted signal through the panel. I personally don't have much sound issues anymore, though I know lots of people do & would love something like this, whether it's the sirens of the city or the birds chirping at 5 am.
I'm down to help with the signal processing part of it if interested.
Did you watch our earlier video on active noise cancelation?
this one is pretty neat! i would love to try this one myself,, is there a parts list somewhere for it?
He has covered how to make these in previous videos. Absolutely
@@tdtrecordsmusic Yes you are correct. I should have been a little more clear in my question. I was wondering what type of AV receiver/ Amp . he was using. stuff like that.
@@johnofthejungle5699 oh, gotcha. Sry, I don't recollect ever seeing his setup, but as audio is what I do I can help a bit.
If you're going to be doing experiments I highly recommend getting those tiny amps from amazon/ebay for roughly 10$-50$. I like the ones which are just a circuit board/no enclosure. The ones I am speaking of have very few parts and are based on the amplifier chip itself. So far ever one has had genuine chips typically from Texas Instruments. These chips are high quality & typically found in car stereos(head units). The advantage for fun/experiments is that they are very robust. They have a wide range of input voltages. They can handle short circuits and have features designed for abuse. Most can literally maintain a dead short and still survive without even a change in the sound output. One bad a$$ chip. This is NOT the same for those big receivers you find at big box stores OR any amplifier based on discrete components. I typically search for "50w amplifier" or "100w amplifier".. something like that. The last one I got has model # zk502t. For 20$ it even came with a very nice power supply :)
So my formula is to use this little throw away amp for experiments. Then when the experiment is done, I will hook it up to the supposedly better setup of a higher priced amp. I must say though that these little amps seem to be better quality than the receivers touted for hifi stereo. They clearly have better signal to noise ratio(yes I measured with oscilloscope) and tend to pickup less hum from various devices like ipods / phones / guitar pedals / etc...
Sometimes I will just go to Texas Instruments website & browse around for the newest amp chip. Then just search that on amazon/ebay & there will typically be a little board based on that chip for ... yup, you guessed >> 10$ - 50$ ...
However, my goto for proper sound without killing the wallet is yamaha HS8(new models) & beyerdynamic DT770 pro 80ohms . I don't like the higher ohm headphones, they sound different. I've got a couple pairs & I have heard loads of them! Plus, it sux when you can only hookup your headphones to ONE amp to sound decent & they still don't sound as good as the 80s. 80ohms seems to be the magic number.
They do sound pretty amazing for what they are (I've built some - I've used Tectonic exciters, cheapo BT amp and insulation panels, its like 25eu for everything), but I wonder how is the imaging on these - multiple panels, not exactly concentric to the listener would wreck havoc in time domain.
boy! the imaginging is not as good as a LX mini but defintely comparable to reglular high end speakers
Tuned in AGAIN and found more incredible examples of GEN / 6 7 8 and beyond panel speakers. My 2x4 acoustic panels I made still perform without any Buzz and rattling due to a surface speaker being used. I was thrilled to see the Rockville Blue tube amps lined up for this demo. I use the same 4ohm amp for mine.. Sound is just right there IF you add a sub woofer to bring in more BASS. Without.. Top end clearness that has to be heard to believe.. Tech Ingredients, Continue to waste no time with these projects.. BRAVO 🤟
Thanks!
Did you watch our more recent video where we took these speakers on the road (literally) to get public feedback?
@@TechIngredients Thanks for the reply and of course I'll find that video and watch it. NO telling how people will react to this concept.. Wish I could be one of those to give it a listen..
Pretty cool! This kind of system would be absolutely incredible with a large screen TV. One could build a room sized unit, and have an incredible movie experience, say Top Gun Maverick, for instance.
Hmm 🤔 a projector movie 🎥 experience with these panel speakers 🔊 would sound amazing. Consider that a challenge. I’ll create this and see what it sounds like. I usually use my 2 Krk rocket 6 speakers for my projector movies but the sound is not great but great bass tho.
WE NEED IMD DISTORTION FIGURES
on a few SPL measurement points and Frequencies
“sounds good” is not scientific
This channel is a huuuuge GEM. I´m amazed at how many topics he covers. Im striving to have this knowledge one day, big thanks for your videos!!!
Thanks!
Just don't quit, and you'll be surprised at what you can do.
I have questions about the impulse response due to the moving mass of the radiator. Also about cancellation caused by the rear wave coming from the back of the radiator bouncing off of surfaces in the surrounding room and interacting with the panel. This would typically result in some low frequency comb filtering of the longer low frequency wavelengths.
These are configured as dipoles well away from the walls of the room so cancellation effects would be very different if you were using them to say, line a room where they are very close to the walls..
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind The wavelength (λ) in Air is nearly 2.86 meters, so unless you deaden the walls or put up something to diffract the reflected sound it's almost inevitable that you're going to see the reflected wave cancel and/or reinforce the primary front output depending on the frequency.
I meant to say the wavelength is nearly 2.86 meters "at the low-pass frequency of 120 hertz", the lowest frequency handled by the panel before the signal is crossed over to the subwoofer.
Interesting speaker experiment. I was hoping you'd also be able to hit the lower frequencies without using a sub.
Not happy with the leading questions to test subjects.
Jim Sim... in the late 70s I acquired a pair of Goodman polyplaner speakers possibly 50 watts . I built 2 big simple boxes and slid clamped them in the front ...the sound was the best stereo I ever had fantastic base middle and tremble I had them till I left for Thailand. My friend now has them and says he will be buried with them . I now have home made ones 3 way networks Inc in Thailand. They are much more powerful watt for watt when in a box and better base mine have an aluminum stasis supporting the magnates with coils attached to shaped styrene foam front sound surfaces ..I love the sound they have ...
Why don't you have a seat over there?
I have questions about the smoothness of their frequency response as you move further and further off-axis. Seems like there'd be some epic beaming.
These actually perform better off-axis than cone speakers. Nearly omni-directional.
I like all your videos on sound walls. In fact, reviews in Amazon selling the DML’s point to you as inspiration in making these speakers. Great job, keep up the good work!
I would love to hear those in person, in a stereo setup. (nothing against 5.1) I bet they sound similar to the Magnaplaner speakers. Those had clarity and openness that was incredible. But my favorite was the Klipsch Corner horns (Klipschorn). There is nothing quite like Dark Side of the Moon played thru a set of Klipschors! Thanks for all you do! I will have to experiment with this.
Oh, please don't use premiere :(
But it is premiere...
Great idea, but 50 years ago Bertagni Electrostatic Speakers (BES) were sold using the same concept. They were true dipole speakers with sound eminating 360 degrees. I owned a pair of D120s. The unique things about them, if set up correctly, was the breadth and depth of the sound stage. The D120s had 2 separate panels and a dome tweeter for high frequency. I drove them with an Accuphase P300 Amp through a C200 preamp. The key with this type of speaker is the set-up. They need to be a couple of feet from the wall and angled in toward the listening area, the sound will be very open and airy. Several audiophile friends with high end systems were in disbelief of my system with the clarity, sound stage and lack of distortion at high listening levels. I'm thinking about building a couple of these for my Atmos overheads.
I clicked because it looked like you got Mike Stoklasa in a video.
Would need to play some Star Trek themes to get Mike's approval.
.
Before the alcoholism and the realization that all his beloved franchises are being ran into the ground.
Maybe he was invited by Tech ingredients: "Mike casa es Stoklasa"
Let's fire up then objective measurements tech grampa!
Lets make bets on if he actually does any testing against conventional speakers. XD
these speakers are pretty inexpensive to make lol. even you can create one and test it for yourself
@@lordjaashin ironically it's the measurement equipment that costs an arm and a leg. A Klippel costs $100K, unless you have a anechoic chamber like Techingredients has.
“Oh hell yeah, it was like crazy”! Sums up our entire experience.
Uh Oh, A three dimensional sound stage. Virtual reality audio.
More content. More content.
From a technical point of view, "friends" are not the best choice to test it out. You need a audio engineer or professionals related to audio to evaluate this. Over here, it sound terrible, specially the bass (Xonar Essence STX II, Sennheiser HD 650).
Did you not listen to the thing at the beginning where they said RUclips compression was garbage?
@@Scou73r "Did you not listen to the thing at the beginning where they said RUclips compression was garbage?"
What this has to do with sound capture? RUclips sound compression is one thing, a bad sound capture is another.
How much RUclips sound compression affect this?
watch?v=Bw4uglDahEo
The bass is very distorted but as nobody is mentioning it in the video (some even say the opposite) I assume it's just the microphone clipping.
@@FAB1150 Most of the problems with the audio is caused by sound clipping (bass among other frequencies).
I'd love to see an instrumentation mic hung at the seat position an look at the frequency/phase response of the system, also THD across dynamic range. That said, another interesting video.
The Clickbait is hard with this one
I mean the previous two iterations were mindblowingly good so I don't think it's clickbait.
Christian, how about "An adequate demonstration of a low cost speaker that sounds not too bad"?
what, they're baiting you into a cool as fuck video??? omg guyz. How very well dare they!!!!!!
@@TechIngredients dont fall for these trolls, i watched all of your videos, and im a big fan of the channel. You really know what your talking about and discuss video topics way more accurately than other channels. Other videos dont give enough detail, and i learn alot more from your videos. Its obvious that you know what you are talking about, and are passionate about it. I would love to meet you to show you a few inventions i have created
@@TechIngredients that would at least be the truth!