Icom IC-9700 Haters' Delight? VK3BL discusses Measurement & Statistics
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- Опубликовано: 16 апр 2019
- Being a UHF (1.2GHz / 23cm) transceiver, the performance characteristics of the Icom IC-9700 are inherently hard to quantify.
We've noticed that a few reports of 'frequency stability' issues have been circulating social media, so Jarrad VK3BL decided to take the opportunity to discuss the inherent difficulty of measuring 23cm equipment, and also why Rate My Radio shies away from publishing measurements of transceivers in general.
We didn't make this video as a critique of any one report or person - their efforts are in the spirit of Amateur radio and are most certainly educational - but merely to give an overview to Hams who maybe not familiar with VHF&UHF equipment how difficult making measurements can be.
With specific reference to the IC-9700, the following topics are covered:
How to make accurate measurements
How to produce accurate statistics
How to 'put things into perspective'
The last one is the most important. Let's just say the IC-9700 'drifts' a little bit at 1.2GHz - which it almost certainly does - how do we know as Hams if this is a reason to avoid purchasing the radio?
The answer lies in the history of previous equipment. All transceivers drift; in fact, it was very common on HF for most of the history of amateur radio, to the point we have a dedicated function / knob called 'Receive Incremental Tuning' or RIT to compensate for our QSO partner being 'slightly off frequency'.
Whilst 'drift' on HF transceivers has long become a thing of the past, it is still something that is encountered on the higher bands. So how do we know if a certain amount of drift is a reason not to buy a radio? Simple, we put it in context: is the new radio better than the previous generations?
Rather than relying on 'Amateur Measurements', we encourage prospective buyers to engage in a bit critical thinking of their own; after all, the most important thing a radio can do is meet the individual owner's operating passions.
As for the IC-9700, we recommend what we'd recommend when it comes to purchasing any radio:
If you can truly afford the IC-9700, go for it, be an early adopter and enjoy the privilege and excitement that comes with being the first kid on the block with the new toy.
If you can only 'justify' purchasing the IC-9700, maybe wait a while for the debates to settle, the VHF/UHF Field Ops & contesters to test them out and provide feedback, and any needed updates to be released.
If you can't afford the IC-9700, relish the fact that the revolutionary VHF&UHF Direct Conversion SDR Architecture has decimated the second hand price of traditional superhet radios, and grab yourself a bargain on the second hand market.
Now is truly the time to explore the exciting VHF & UHF aspects of our great hobby!
73, Jarrad VK3BL 
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Thanks for you honest info on your reports. I have been a marine electronics tech for aprox 40 years and recently got my amatuer extra. In the marine industry we have channeled VHF and HF radios that I have to check for their frequency, modulation (devation in FM) and power. My test communications monitor has to be better than 1 part per million to properly test the radios in frequency my unit is portable and new was $5000. I have seen and used units over $15000. they are considered a secondary standard and are checked against WWV for accuracy. The radios are required to be kept with a 10 ppm accuracy which means at 150mhz i need to ajust them to less than 1500 hz off frequency, when I ajust them I try for 150hz off. If you look at 1.2ghz if held to that standard then 1.2Ghz would be within 12,000 hz . I did not find if or what the requirment is for amatuer radio is but do not think it is this high. Wanting a radio to hold to a much higher standard would probibly put the cost beyond most amatuer's reach. We have a standard available to us that is much higher for free that we can use to lock our transceivers to if we use either WWV or GPS. Think about the mesurement in parts per million as a better guage of accurate tuining, it is also much easer to make an accurate radio at HF than SHF.
Well said Jarrod. The obsession with figures is overdone. I base my opinions of radios on how much I enjoy using them; it is a hobby when all is said and done.
Thanks Anthony, its a complicated topic and a radio such as the IC-9700 is ripe for low quality (but well intentioned) information to spread; something I find unfortunate given the fact it really is a revolutionary new design that should be allowed to make its mark. I don't recall people obsessing over numbers with the old generations of 23cm / 1.2GHz SSB Radios, but then we didn't have the ever glorious internet then! Thanks for the comment, 73 Jarrad VK3BL :)
Many thanks for showing how powerful the SDRplay RSPduo is, as a measurement device
You're most welcome. If we had our way, every shack would have an SDR Play on hand. Not only are they a fantastic general purpose receiver all the way to 2GHz, but they're also a great tool for station monitoring and measuring your TX performance; something every Ham should do from time to time! 73, Jarrad VK3BL :)
Nicely done. I hit the subscribe button based on this video and I'd never heard of your channel until today. Thanks for reminding EVERYONE how important it is to think critically!
Thank you Jarrod for this. well done.
Hi Jared Mark K2CSX how does that radio in the Icom 9700 work on D star
Very nice to watch vedeo, keep them coming especially about the IC-9700 . I am interested in buying this radio but am going to wait a bit. I was not all that happy when yesterday I saw a comparison vedeo on another you tube channel (that has been removed) This radio has been compared to various others like the FT-991 FT-847 IC-7000 and even a cheap Chinese handheld. Sensitivity on 70cms FM was unbelievably the worst ! especially with the Pre-amp off, but as you said we don`t know what antenna was being used + other conditions in this case!! Time will tell
Preamp off in this high range equipment is to work with mast preamp and not to loose dynamic range. Its how it must work. I also have a IC275H and work in the same way .
Love your realistic outlook !
Jarrod, just a little bit long for my taste, but well done anyway, it is appreciated. It reinforces the points I've been trying to make on social media and some mailing lists and with Rob Sherwood himself as well as other "testers".
I collect my new IC-9700 on Saturday and I'm sure I will be satisfied with it until I prove to MYSELF that I'm not (if that ever happens)! :-)
73, Alan. G4GNX
It definitely was long winded; I had no idea I ranted for 40 minutes till it was finished but its a complicated topic and watching the video afterwards I still only scratched the surface. Enjoy your radio! 73, Jarrad VK3BL :)
Just watch it at 1.5 speed. Or 2X if you have had your coffee.
Thanks for a great video. Where you gone?
I have both 7300 and 9700 160 - 23cms including 4M & 8M (rx), what more would you want, just some decent antenas.
Very helpful. I expect to order one next week. Here is one for you on comparisons. All Indians walk in single file; at least the one I saw did.
Excellent video
Hi, has MFJ sent those spares for the amp project yet ? Looking forward to seeing you restore that old girl.
All the best,regards Carl.
No! I think I'm going to have to order them directly or something... I feel bad every time I pass the amp and want to see that lovely 3-500G Glow! 73, Jarrad VK3BL :)
Hi Jarod,
There is no perfect transceiver., and in Amateur radio, we do care about precision, but up to what level? We just want to enjoy the hobby. I have Baofeng handy, and who care much about the frequency stability, because it is on FM mode, and the frequency are CHANGING all the time. :)
But on SSB, or AM, a good frequency stability is required to have better signal quality. But, remember, there are other parameters which affecting the signal, such as QRM and QRN. Even in digital mode, there are codecs which includes Error Corection Code (ECC) to make the data more robust.
I think IC-9700's frequency stability is 0.5 ppm. Basic calculation ..
1 MHz, 0.5 Hz
10 MHz, 5 Hz
100 MHz, 50 Hz
1 GHz, 500 Hz
At UHF band the deviation seem to be higher, but, we have RIT, XIT to compasate the deviation/drift. The monitoring party can adjust until he/she is happy and enjoy listening to it. :)
Let's us enjoy this hobby together.
Yours,
Bahathir 9W2GNU, 73.
Dear Bahathir, thanks for providing the math, and I'm happy to inform you that Rob Sherwood measured the drift/deviation of his IC-9700 @ 1.2GHz using a HP 5335A Frequency Counter to be about 70Hz. That is much better than the official specifications and I do hope people don't get to caught up on measurements made with lesser equipment. As you say, there is a reason we have RIT and XIT and it seems some hams have forgotten where we came from in this great hobby. 73, Jarrad VK3BL :)
And if you want to work digital modes, 500 Hz drift at 1 GHz is completely unacceptable. But that's the spec of the internal osc, so fair enough. The problem is, when I put a MUCH better reference into the ext ref jack, it still drifts like crazy. That's unacceptable. You can't fix this with the RIT/XIT.
Icom would supply a frequency stability specification for each band the radio operates on. If it operates within those specifications all is well. If it doesn't it needs to be fixed, it's as simple as that.
I want to have a radio on the table to do exclusively VHF / UHF, would you like an opinion about spending more than $ 2,000.00 buying an IC 9700 or buying a multiband ICOM IC 9100 ?? Can you help me with your opinion ??
Sorry I dont write english is very well, 73
Of course, and we will shortly be publishing a video about who should buy this radio as soon as I get my voice back (summer flu). As a dedicated 2M, 70cm & 23cm general purpose SSB radio you cannot go wrong with the IC-9700. It is also very well suited for satellite operators. The only people who have a negative opinion of the radio are those who realistically believe it should have included an atomic clock!! 73, Jarrad VK3BL
Although I completely agree with the main point of the video, think that the video misses the point.
As already mentioned in the comments, a radio which is 500 Hz off on 23 cm isn't defective. At 1300 MHz, the 0,5 ppm gives you offset up to +/- 650 Hz. This specification is bad for narrow-band digital modes which are channelized, and for extremely slow modes. For most of other purposes, it's fine, as long as there's no offset between tx frequency and rx frequency, the 1 Hz frequency resolution gives enough room to compensate.
The main issue is that people expected 1 ppb stability, didn't check the manual, and are disappointed when they didn't get it. Same for 10 MHz in. References with 1 ppb or better stability are available, but the IC-9700 manual states that the 10 MHz in is only for one-time calibration, while people assumed otherwise, and are now feeling disappointed.
Agree - why the heck did ICOM integrate a 10 MHz reference input just for one-time calibration when even the RSP2 can LOCK to an external reference? Many hams have multiple very stable references (0,05 ppm is no deal for an OCXO and GPSDOs, Rubidium normals are way better) at hand.. And no, 'phase noise' isn't a valid argument - it's possible to lock frequency stability *and* phase noise to *different* references..
@@salat Just a wild guess... From what I've heard, the external 10 MHz in is used for service calibration as well. Maybe it was very cheap to get the external connector? But still, the 10 MHz in is pretty unusual solution.
Simple answer is that if you require a specification which is better than that published by the manufacturer, don't buy the radio!
Buying one, knowing that it would not meet your requirements is just plain stupidity, regardless of what other people say they have measured.
Buying one hoping that it will be better than the published specification, then griping when it doesn't, is even worse stupidity! :-)
@@salat Agreed, but I suspect that this is an oversight and will be corrected. How often has software been released that doesn't have at least one unnoticed bug in it?
@@wurlitzerwilly I'm not so sure about that being a software bug. I mean, this looks more like it's an issue at the specification level. Otherwise, it wouldn't be described in the way it is in the manual. Also, the 10 MHz reference input on the IC-7610 seems to be calibration-only, and not a lock-on, as well.. At least as far as I can understand how it works based on the manual, since the explanation is very short.
Modern hams don't realize how GREAT we have it in terms of the performance of modern equipment; complaing about 30 Hz. drift on 144 MHz., or 300 Hz. on 1.2 GHz?!
The first radio I ever got on the air with as a newly licensed Technician back in 1969 was a PolyComm 6 at the high school radio club where I got my license; the first radio I bought brand new was a Lafayette HA-460. Both radios were vacuum tube 6 meter AM transceivers which when operated on their internal VFO's (vs. crystal control) routinely drifted 50 KHz. (or more!). When the dial graduation marks were only EVERY 50 KHZ., that drift amount didn't seem all that bad. Of course, AM tuning is nowhere as critical as SSB, but older SSB transceivers drifted as well.
If your THAT concerned about the IC-9700's stability, install the Leo Bodner GPS lock board (I plan to do mine in the near future); mainly considering for best frequenct accuracy in planning to try EME in the neard future.
But even as it is? I LOVE my IC-9700! 😁
As a retired engineer and Extra Class licensee, I can support this video unreservedly. I taught statistics at the college level and have been licensed since 1957. Yes, I own a rig which is an Icom... the IC-7300, and can tell you that it is spot on when compared with other HF radios of the $1,000 class. To properly measure, then compare an analog radio to one with digital capabilities, FIRST read the ARRL book, SDR and find out why the technology and the math cannot be applied directly to these rigs because it is like comparing apples to oranges. Not just bad testing, but poor technique and theory. de KQ2E
Thanks very much for the kind words Bruce. I must admit I wasn't sure how the video would be taken given the controversial nature of the topic, but overall the response seems to be positive. Unfortunately I managed to make it a bit long winded but even 'scratching the surface' of both measurement and statistical analysis fundamentals is not an easy task! 73, Jarrad VK3BL :)
Hi Jarrad, yeah I have heard hams criticizing the radio for being overpriced. It is going to be a fine radio I think and will be pretty popular. I would like to get my hands on one for satellite work. Best 73!
well, I do think it is overprice... here in Canada, it is 2799$ + tx = 3000+ for only 3 band radio and one of which might not be used by everyone... I think Icom should have made options for the 1.2GHz and D-Star... remove 1200$ for the 1.2GHz module and another 600$ for the D-Star module, now you get a very nice VHF/UHF SDR radio at the price point of a 7300, now THAT would have been an awesome deal... As much as I would like to get one, 3000$CA+ for such a radio is way way over my budget...
Dear Rich, there is one thing I know for sure, and thats that it is not overpriced! Sitting in my local ham shop Strictly Ham for just 30 minutes I heard 2 orders being taken over the phone and that was in addition to myself picking up my unit! It isn't priced like an IC-R8600 fortunately, 73, Jarrad VK3BL
Ham Radio with K0PIR for sure if all you’re going to use it for his satellite it is very very overpriced when you can buy an ICOM 910H fully loaded for less than half the price.
I like how you are approaching this whole analysis... but there are two things, 1, when comparing two radios against each other, you have to realise that the 9700 that was tested against the other icom radio render the 9700 as good or below the measurement of an older radio which is NOT to be expected from a radio of this price range, you understand what I am trying to say ? Regardless of the test methodology and equipement test, the 9700 should have smoke (at least the community expect this) that older radio...
and 2, your video is so freakn distractive... I could not take my eyes of that Tokyo Hy-Power amp and peek at it for 40 minutes... you lucky you... don't EVER sell that thing, they are gems of technology... I envy you so much ! for that THP and 9700 in fact...
Again, good video !
Regarding the performance, I've been conversing with Rob Sherwood and whilst I have to go over his detailed analysis, the IC-9700 does indeed smoke older radios. He has also been so kind as to provide me with previous reviews of older equipment, as a comparison point. PS, you're totally right about the THP HL2.5Kfx; it is amazing, I got it for a bargain price second hand and I just can't see myself ever letting it go. Even to this day it keeps up with new designs. 73, Jarrad VK3BL :)
I completely missed the point why even consider Rohde&Schwarz
as a frequency counter for your particular requirement
The R&S frequency counter was an example of test equipment, thats all. 73, Jarrad VK3BL :)
@@RateMyRadio you got it dude! :-)
I Just heard now that guys on 10ghz said its not like what yesterday been said as much ,and that with a new firmware can be settled.
Actually not quite true, David. The (perceived) frequency stability can't be fixed within the rig itself by a firmware change alone. That would require some hardware change or modification. If there is a firmware fix, you would still need an external reference to hold the rig within the frequency limits that some people say they require. Note again that I do describe perceived instability by others, I don't have an issue with it.
A very niche interest group will not be happy with the performance, but one wonders why they buy the radio given the specifications are published! For what its worth, the same niche group has modified every previous radio they've used, so again it doesn't make too much sense to think that suddenly a radio at this price point would meet all their desires. 73, Jarrad VK3BL :)
Well I better wait for more reviews till now still I like it.
Just now
www.icom.co.jp/world/support/download/firm/IC-9700/1_06/
@@RateMyRadio A radio with an external 10 MHz reference should have frequency stability as good as the external reference. The 9700 does not. I bought it expecting it to perform like every other ext ref device on the planet. It doesn't. I'm not interested in using the internal oscilllator, as the published specs say it is crap.
Price, Price, Price. It is way too expensive!
I thought that initially as well, but it does more when compared to the 7300. It has two receivers to the 7300's 1. Anything dealing with the 23cm band is dealing with more sensitive signal issues than anything in the HF range. Ultimately, the 9700 is solving a harder problem than the 7300, and is still less than twice the price of the 7300. Does it cost more than I'm comfortable to spend right now? Sure. Do I wish it cost less? Absolutely. My assumption is that after it has been on the market for a year or two, like the 7300, the price will drop to a more attractive point. (No, you didn't mention the 7300, I did, but it seems to be the obvious radio to compare it to, since it shares much of the same architecture.)
Honestly... the problem isn't the testing or the radio. It's the lack of a locking 10Mhz input. Anyone who is unhappy with the stock stability also owns a disciplined oscillator.
dam shame there is no give extended TX below 144 mhz if there was this would be a wonderful unit
Jarrod, there are several different worries here: the basic frequency accuracy and long term (many minutes or hours) environmental temperature drift easily measurable with a counter, and the short term temperature drift caused by heat from the finals being blown over the frequency reference oscillator, during a transmission. The first isn't that big a deal, and the microwave crowd has been dealing with it for years. The second can be an issue if one is using say the JT modes, and the frequency drift during a transmission is enough to screw up the software decoding algorithm on the receive end (and I don't know that it is that bad, I'm just giving an example). I have an old FT-847, and it was known for this - and Kuhne Electronics in Germany made a little heater module to slide over the reference crystal and ovenize it. I submit that an SDRplay is a reasonably good instrument to look at this short term drift provided the power is reasonably stable (separate battery?), as the absolute accuracy isn't as important as short term drift.
Signal generator technology has brought down costs below what he is stating. Google them, look for yourself. The sig generator has to have better specs than the radio being tested. But even having such a piece of test equipment isn't something you or I will use every day. As he states above it costs more than the radio. Either the radio meets spec or it doesn't. There is not a whole lot you can do about it if it is off. Do you have surface mount skills ? Improve your antenna system is something you CAN control. As other posters have said enjoy the hobby !
I'm talking RX stability of course.
short version they drift
OMG🤯🤢😱😨😰😡🤒..Hi Jarrod sorry to say but I really don't think it Matters....What does matter is everyone stops arguing and starts enjoying our great hobby👍,by getting on the Air and Communicating, so long as I can hear you I really don't care if the equipment your using is accurate to .0001ppm or 1000ppm as long as we enjoy having a nice qso then all is good.
Contrary to popular belief the Band's are not always dead, if we all just listen then they will be dead....
Great Video all the same. Keep up the good work.
73 de Steve
Obviously you've not tried running FT8.
I will keep my ICOM 910H & 821H & have just as much FUN & I have less money in them combined.better yet I don't have any need to put my fingers all over the display of either of them unless i am wiping the dust from the display not wiping the oily fingerprints from it because I must touch the screen just so I can make basic changes to the radio.I don't see the desire for touching the screen on any radio so that it performs any function.ICOM is pushing me further & further away & forcing me to buy Used gear as I did with the 910H & 821H but they are saving me money I must say.
I am an ICOM Man but would not own any touch screen radio even for FREE.Not for me ever at any price.If my ICOM 7600 and ICOM 821H fail and can’t be repaired I’ll buy used ICOM radios because ICOM makes nothing that interest me at all other than the 7851 and that’s out of my budget.
Agree all I ever see with the later radios are just issues. I have my icom 7600 and never had issues.
I couldn't be bothered to sit through 40 minutes of this. I work in the amateur bands in the microwave range up to 24 GHz. It really isn't hard to get good frequency stability with a GPSDO. You just have to implement it correctly. ICOM didn't implement it correctly in the 9700.
Brits take forever to make their point. This video could have been made in 10 mins or less. If you want to watch this, make sure you pack a lunch.
VK is Australia mate
@@andrewbaker7854 Same same